Long term plans

[cut]

The US and coalition forces in Afghanistan seem to be closing in on Osama Bin Laden. What are the viable long term plans to beat the terrorists? Has anyone thought about this? Things will probably get worse when we get hold of OBL how do you guys propose the War on Terrosism goes on from there?

[Haiw]

The US and coalition forces in Afghanistan seem to be closing in on Osama Bin Laden. What are the viable long term plans to beat the terrorists? Has anyone thought about this? Things will probably get worse when we get hold of OBL how do you guys propose the War on Terrosism goes on from there?
Good point...what if they finally got OBL. What then? I mean, even when you get him, I don't suppose terrorism will suddenly vanish like ice on a summer day.

[cut]

The US and coalition forces in Afghanistan seem to be closing in on Osama Bin Laden. What are the viable long term plans to beat the terrorists? Has anyone thought about this? Things will probably get worse when we get hold of OBL how do you guys propose the War on Terrosism goes on from there?
Good point...what if they finally got OBL. What then? I mean, even when you get him, I don't suppose terrorism will suddenly vanish like ice on a summer day.

I think the opposite will happen, that there will be an increase, but I'm waiting for someone to convince me otherwise.

[XASA]

Long term planning has never been an American military nor political strength.

Although the Afghani and Iraqi resistance has yet to reach the level of the Vietnam War and both are entirely different conflicts, one need only to remember that the Vietnamese looked at their fight-- first against the French and then the Americans-- as a conflict that might take generations to win. The American military thought they could go in and it would be over in a few years due to its technological superiority, manpower and the perception that "might makes right". Sometimes, it seems the same mindset exists today.

Will the new Afghani and Iraqi governments be in place this year? If in place, will they be able to govern? Who will lead Iraq and Afghanistan? How will the different factions interact? Will the tribes cooperate with the government and with each other? How long will it take to bring the infrastructure back to a semblance of normal? These are the questions that need to be answered. Obviously, there is a plan in place but, unfortunately, it doesn't seem to be working according to the American quick results timeline.

Right now, security and stability are the main focus of the U.S., without them none of the above will occur.

[Beowulf]

The US and coalition forces in Afghanistan seem to be closing in on Osama Bin Laden. What are the viable long term plans to beat the terrorists? Has anyone thought about this? Things will probably get worse when we get hold of OBL how do you guys propose the War on Terrosism goes on from there?



... Al qaida is not like any other terrorist groups they don't need OBL the cells are so impossible to get, the more the US applies pressure to arab countries the more new terrorists it produce, and meanwhile americans think that the military action is killing al qaida.

What do YOU think? If military action is not the way to go, what other viable options are available to the coalition, in terms of stopping terrorism?

[cut]

The US and coalition forces in Afghanistan seem to be closing in on Osama Bin Laden. What are the viable long term plans to beat the terrorists? Has anyone thought about this? Things will probably get worse when we get hold of OBL how do you guys propose the War on Terrosism goes on from there?



... Al qaida is not like any other terrorist groups they don't need OBL the cells are so impossible to get, the more the US applies pressure to arab countries the more new terrorists it produce, and meanwhile americans think that the military action is killing al qaida.

What do YOU think? If military action is not the way to go, what other viable options are available to the coalition, in terms of stopping terrorism?

You got me wrong, I'm not advocating the end of military action, that would be wrong, I'm talking about the rest, when in comes to terrorism force only goes so far, and in the long term is counter-productive. We need to combine it withsomething that doesn't give the terrorist what they need, in other words new recruits.

[Beowulf]

You got me wrong, I'm not advocating the end of military action, that would be wrong, I'm talking about the rest, when in comes to terrorism force only goes so far, and in the long term is counter-productive. We need to combine it withsomething that doesn't give the terrorist what they need, in other words new recruits.


okay, good. So it seems that the thing to do would be:

1. Military action, which takes the fight to the terrorists, hopefully captures leadership, disrupts communicatioin, planning, and operations. We'll also say that military action includes intelligence, and law enforcement operations.

The efficacy of military action is mitigated, as you pointed out, by the "cell" structure, and by a certain degree of "backlash" caused by operations. (human nature: foreign soldiers running around are gonna piss you off eventually). So the question is how do we deal with those two mitigating factors? I believe the answer to be:

2. MOOTW (military operations other than war) PSYOP and CA, are actively attempting to rebuild the infrastructure in A-stan and Iraq.

We attempt to show that we are willing to help, we actively engage in and promote humanitarian aid missions. (People don't realize that out of the 7 or so Special operations units in the army 2 1/2 of those are dedicated to humanitarian aid missions!) We must promote free and open elections. We must show that we are willing to put something in and are not there just to take things out.

I could go on, but I'm sure you get the idea

[cut]

this is all within a military context, there is also diplomacy. Imporve relations with the Arab countries that the terrorist come from, give them the power and respect they want, and the supply of terrorists to AQ will dry up.

Remember, the power of the US is much much more effective against a state, so not keeping the arab countries under it's thumb will improve the opinion. Of course this is speculative and will take time, but it is the best option if you don't want an israel/palestinian terrorists situation on a global scale.

I know people reading this will say that improving the status of arab countries in a controled world controlled by the West is giving into the terrorists, but the war on terrorism alone will (sadly) not suffice to stop al qaida.

[fantassin]

One fact to consider; an ultra conservative government like Bush's or Sharon's NEEDS a strong, vicious enemy to thrive.

When the enemy is gone, they are the first to go. Look at good old Sir Winston at the end of WW2; he was kicked out of number 10 in no time and replaced by a Labour PM because the people was sick of "blood, sweat and tears" and wanted welfare, health and education instead of bombs and grand foreign diplomacy.

It's the same thing for GWB and Sharon; without a targeted enemy, they are goners in the next election.

[Whistler]

Which won't be such a bad thing, if the enemy is gone we wont need a hardline on them anymore.

But, capturing OBL wont end terrorism. It will be a great victory, but it wont be THE victory.

[ibstolidude]

Good point...what if they finally got OBL. What then? I mean, even when you get him, I don't suppose terrorism will suddenly vanish like ice on a summer day.

I mean if a man kills you family and then the police catch him - all murder doesn't stop. We should stop wasting money and time on trying to stop and catch all criminals.

[ibstolidude]

Long term planning has never been an American military nor political strength.

one must remember long term planning for the military DOES NOT shap US foreign policy - it is the other way around.

It is not the role of the US military to come up with viable solutions to the GWOT - only military options/solutions.

[WARPIG]

one must remember long term planning for the military DOES NOT shap US foreign policy - it is the other way around.

It is not the role of the US military to come up with viable solutions to the GWOT - only military options/solutions.

Stoli has been reading confucious again.."one must never urinate into the wind."

This issue with terrorists is only a military one. I don't recall any terrorist calling from his truckbomb or from the airplane as, he noses it toward NYC, asking for any diplomatic concessions. I highly doubt that there was any diplomatic solution to the recent murders in Spain either. The biggest impact catching Osama will have will be a total blackout of any other news in the media, followed by reports of George Dubya's rising popularity in the election polls.

[pinkeye]

one must remember long term planning for the military DOES NOT shap US foreign policy - it is the other way around.

It is not the role of the US military to come up with viable solutions to the GWOT - only military options/solutions.

Stoli has been reading confucious again.."one must never urinate into the wind."

This issue with terrorists is only a military one. I don't recall any terrorist calling from his truckbomb or from the airplane as, he noses it toward NYC, asking for any diplomatic concessions. I highly doubt that there was any diplomatic solution to the recent murders in Spain either. The biggest impact catching Osama will have will be a total blackout of any other news in the media, followed by reports of George Dubya's rising popularity in the election polls.

wow, you are incredibly off the mark. you have obviously not read any of the literature on the issue of security and development. terrorism, and threats to security in general, are often the result of social, economic, and/or political problems. this is simple security studies 101 stuff. hell, it's common sense. do you think mr. x wakes up one day and simply decides that he wants to become a terrorist? maybe he is politically disfranchised. maybe his economic prospects are dismal. perhaps his environment is toxic. these problems must be addressed.

if you remove the factors that lead individuals to consider terrorism as a recourse for change, you remove the threat. this is obviously a heck of a lot easier said than done, but measures can be taken to minimise the development of threats. take osama for example. the guy is obviously messed-up in the head, but he blames his actions partly on the fact that he feels the u.s. has violated the sanctity of his homeland, that the u.s. continues to support israel's "oppression" of palestinians. the i.r.a. emerged to combat what it perceived to be catholic disfranchisement. and so on and so forth.

there has to be a military response to terrorism, but it cannot be the only response nor it is necessarily the most important response. the unsung heroes in all of this are the non-governmental organisations and the united nations who help countless millions rise above the crap that could easily bring them down to a level where "terrorism", however you define it, could be considered as a viable solution to a real or perceived
problem(s).

[Haiw]

Good point...what if they finally got OBL. What then? I mean, even when you get him, I don't suppose terrorism will suddenly vanish like ice on a summer day.

I mean if a man kills you family and then the police catch him - all murder doesn't stop. We should stop wasting money and time on trying to stop and catch all criminals.
I didn't say anything like that...it was more like a question; what's next? I'd love to have some insight in the 'war on terror'-agenda.

[Trigger]

...do you think mr. x wakes up one day and simply decides that he wants to become a terrorist? maybe he is politically disfranchised. maybe his economic prospects are dismal. perhaps his environment is toxic. these problems must be addressed.

if you remove the factors that lead individuals to consider terrorism as a recourse for change, you remove the threat...

I think 'Mr. X' gets indoctrinated from an extremely young age with the lie that America is the 'Great Satan' and that the greatest glory will come from killing onesself while fighting the Great Satan.

So yes, the environment is very 'toxic'. Until someone cleans up that 'spill', we're going to be faced with unending terroism.

[Tane Angle]

Extremism takes rise in dire circumstances, when one has no hope. Look at 1920s and 30s Germany, or 1970s Iran. Look at Africa over the past decade. Social breakdown results in no hope. In short, humanitarian aid provides for our own defense. Have a good one, and just some thoughts...

[mocking_loudly_died]

The US and coalition forces in Afghanistan seem to be closing in on Osama Bin Laden. What are the viable long term plans to beat the terrorists? Has anyone thought about this? Things will probably get worse when we get hold of OBL how do you guys propose the War on Terrosism goes on from there?



... Al qaida is not like any other terrorist groups they don't need OBL the cells are so impossible to get, the more the US applies pressure to arab countries the more new terrorists it produce, and meanwhile americans think that the military action is killing al qaida.

What do YOU think? If military action is not the way to go, what other viable options are available to the coalition, in terms of stopping terrorism?

Beach party?

[Beowulf]

The US and coalition forces in Afghanistan seem to be closing in on Osama Bin Laden. What are the viable long term plans to beat the terrorists? Has anyone thought about this? Things will probably get worse when we get hold of OBL how do you guys propose the War on Terrosism goes on from there?



... Al qaida is not like any other terrorist groups they don't need OBL the cells are so impossible to get, the more the US applies pressure to arab countries the more new terrorists it produce, and meanwhile americans think that the military action is killing al qaida.

What do YOU think? If military action is not the way to go, what other viable options are available to the coalition, in terms of stopping terrorism?

Beach party?


No.............Rock Party!!!
http://rds.yahoo.com/S=96062883/K=glenn+danzig+pictures/v=2/l=IVS/*-http://www.rockshoppe.com/pinups/rock/r_glenn2.jpg

http://www.zap-photography.com/Candids&friends/EH_Hideous_Danzig.JPG

[mocking_loudly_died]

:lol:

Glenn roxxers (playing the "Mother" film clip)

[MEGR]

I'm pretty sure that the Administration and US Govt along with the military have something planned for the future. Of course if I was the President, I'd unleash Israel on the Mideast unrestricted.

[cut]

I'm pretty sure that the Administration and US Govt along with the military have something planned for the future. Of course if I was the President, I'd unleash Israel on the Mideast unrestricted.

what would you do if you wanted to stop terrorism?

[MEGR]

What would I do? What does it matter. I'm not a policy maker, just a voter. What i would do to help destroy terrorism is vote for George Bush because it seems that he has a plan to help protect against terrorism.. Now I don't want to start a flame war, but as an American who lives in America, voting for a man who'll take action is all I can do to help combat terrorism.

[cut]

What would I do? What does it matter. I'm not a policy maker, just a voter. What i would do to help destroy terrorism is vote for George Bush because it seems that he has a plan to help protect against terrorism.. Now I don't want to start a flame war, but as an American who lives in America, voting for a man who'll take action is all I can do to help combat terrorism.

I was just wondering if you can think of a strategy, but don't feel like you have to.

[MEGR]

It just seems rather useless.. Cause i'm pretty sure that none of us have any idea about what to do after Osama is caught or whatever.. Its nothing against anyone.. I'm just trying to express my opinion.

[khukuri]

[quote="Trigger

I think 'Mr. X' gets indoctrinated from an extremely young age with the lie that America is the 'Great Satan' and that the greatest glory will come from killing onesself while fighting the Great Satan.

[/quote]

As an arab, i know your wrong if you think thats whats make people terrorists. Youre making the problem simply for yourself. The main reasons why people are killing americans arent any religious ones. The greatest reasons are political ones. Thats why it exists arabs who drink beer, go to strip clubs and are somehow a bit moderate and still like Bin Ladin is doing.
Just look at europe, many people there dont like us neither, do you think they where altso brought up and taught that us is evil.
Just face it! The main reason is that most arabs dont like us/uk foreign policy in the middle east.
Do you think that the moslems in saudi arabia that went to chechnya where taught up by their parents to hate russia?

some morons use terrorism! Others dont, I am an arab who just like the rest of arabs dont like us foreign policy(besides iraq), but im hell no terrorist.

but take this discussion maybe elsewhere


back to topic,

i think one mistake would be killing him, keep m alive and himulate him

[Kilgor]

what about all arab media having a fixation about blaming jews and americans for all arab failures. ?
I have read about how the media deliberately stirs up trouble by making arabs look humiliated.

[khukuri]

what about all arab media having a fixation about blaming jews and americans for all arab failures. ?
I have read about how the media deliberately stirs up trouble by making arabs look humiliated.

this problem existed before most arabs got tv:s in their home

edit: and by the way, develop a bit further what youre talking about.

[Kilgor]

Im not going to deny that American foriegn policy is perfect, but what about Middle east Leaders ?

Wouldnt they be more to blame for their respective countries problems ?

[cut]

It just seems rather useless.. Cause i'm pretty sure that none of us have any idea about what to do after Osama is caught or whatever.. Its nothing against anyone.. I'm just trying to express my opinion.

speak for yourself, I had to write an essay on it.

[khukuri]

thing is, arabcountry leader - and us/france have alot to do with each other. many of them came to power and stay in power thanks to usa, france. this is one of the biggest reasons.

For example, the egyptian terror cell that joined alqaeda was first primarly against egyptian govrement and israel, us supported egyptian govrement and alqaeida thus turning against usa. Same thing with many saudis, the same relationship there.

Actually, american and french foreign policy is very very tied up with internal arab politics because many arab leaders are either tied to france or you us. Exeptions where khadaffi (lybia) syria and saddam. and its no secret that theese three countries where the primarly "enemie states" of the unites states in middle east.

edit: many americans think that theese terrorists hate america because america is a free country. This is bull****, nobody care about how americans live. maybe one or to but I dont think that because of martin have the right to vote makes you fly in an plane and killyourself and 3000 other people.
I can write to you how arab people around middle east really feel and think. none of you need to like it nor agree, but thats the way they think. Problem is that people in this forum can easaly be childish and starting to bs. Ive been living in severeal arab countrys and I know. The israeli guys here for example know very little. They post an image of an palestinian kid with guns and ooops everybody think that thats how the arab population around middle east get their israeli us dislike.

[khukuri]

ignore this

[Kilgor]

But if you look at the conditions in those countries, they are far from good. Human rights abuses, military style dictatorships, no freedom of the press.

Not all arab countries can be considered victims of foreign states. There has to be some internal responsibility ?

[khukuri]

But if you look at the conditions in those countries, they are far from good. Human rights abuses, military style dictatorships, no freedom of the press.

Not all arab countries can be considered victims of foreign states. There has to be some internal responsibility ?

hell yea

But youre missing on of my points. Many arabs feel that us and france support their dictator leaders and help keeping them in power. Thus why us indirectly responsible for "Human rights abuses, military style dictatorships, no freedom of the press. " and so on. Understand what I mean? This and the israel thingy I would like to say is the biggest reasons for US hatred in the middle east.
Arab people dont like their leaders. Leaders use military to stay in power thus people are unable to remove them. USA gets some of the blame. Many americans also think that arabs hate america more that anything on earth, not true most of them hate their own leaders more. "terror similar attacks" against "our own" existed long ago terror started to be used against america and europe.


edit: for example many think that saddam was first helped by usa, this is a matter that can be discussed in another thread. now us removed him and things has changed so the latest happenings (irak) dont really fit into the rest i wrote. but it is an different situation

[Trigger]

[quote="Trigger

I think 'Mr. X' gets indoctrinated from an extremely young age with the lie that America is the 'Great Satan' and that the greatest glory will come from killing onesself while fighting the Great Satan.

As an arab, i know your wrong if you think thats whats make people terrorists. Youre making the problem simply for yourself. The main reasons why people are killing americans arent any religious ones. The greatest reasons are political ones. Oh so all those little schools in Afganistan and other places where the little boys are handed a Koran at age 5 and have nothing but 'Kill the Infidel' drilled into their heads for years and years is just a fantasy? Are you telling me that the idiots who are blowing buses up in Israel are just 'Political Activists'? I'm afraid not.

What does the average person on the street in the middle east know of U.S. foreign policy aside from what they are told in the mosque or from al Jazeera? Thats why it exists arabs who drink beer, go to strip clubs and are somehow a bit moderate and still like Bin Ladin is doing.
Just look at europe, many people there dont like us neither, do you think they where altso brought up and taught that us is evil.
Just face it! The main reason is that most arabs dont like us/uk foreign policy in the middle east.
Do you think that the moslems in saudi arabia that went to chechnya where taught up by their parents to hate russia? No, I think they were taught my their Mullahs that they needed to go and fight the infidel alongside their brothers. What the hell is in Chechnya that's worth fighting for?

some morons use terrorism! Others dont, I am an arab who just like the rest of arabs dont like us foreign policy(besides iraq) Why don't you list some of the things you don't like about U.S. policy. We buy middle east oil, We give untold amounts of humanitarian aid all over the world and we rightfully defend ourselves when necessary., but im hell no terrorist.

but take this discussion maybe elsewhere


back to topic,

i think one mistake would be killing him, keep m alive and himulate him

[khukuri]

First of all were talking about the middle east, I dont count afghanistan to middleast, I´m talking about the arabian countries which astan is not. And by the way, i havent seen any aghan terrorists? Dont mix up the taliban with alqaeda, alqaeda consists mostly of arabs.

Huh, what do you know about aljazeera? apparantly you dont know ****, theirs loooooots of different arabic channels, aljazeera is the one who is known in the west because they got binladins tapes. Aljazeera isnt any moslemchannel which broadcast moslem propaganda. Many americans think that because of that they casted binladen tapes , any western channel that wouldve got the tapes wouldve made the same.

Jesus christ youre making me laugh. you think all arabs sit on their couch watching aljazeera and then going to the mosk? looooool Aljazeera isnt even liked by the arabs and most them like other news channels more.

Hey arab people go to school, they educate themselfes and most of them dont go to moske more than a cupple of times around the religous celebrations.
I can imagine that you think arabs are some some morons being fed by propaganda from religous clerics and picture you have of the arablife and its making me laugh. As if the people where aljazeera all night and day. wake up man!
People make up their own mind, they base their opinions on facts, things that happen in their countries. people there hade those ideas before aljazeera even existed. And its not only moslem who think like that, most christians, atheist communists and so on do aswell.

Those idiots in palestine are doing their cause because of political reasons. you seem to forget that their is other non moslem organisations in palestine who kill israelis like pflp and pflpd who are antireligous? do they also teach the kids with koran from younger ages? no!

You americans seem to think that arabs are born in caves and get directly brainwashed. Actually, even thou there is restrictions i find people i arab countries discussing and getting interested in politics and political idealogy far more than sweden or say england.

edit: oh I forgot the american foreign policy, we can take than in another forum, another thread, it would ruin this one. The point is that I have right with saing arabs dont like american middleastern foreign policy.

[khukuri]

My point with this is that the thread is about long term solution. I f you want a long term solution you gotta now what youre dealing with. Making it easy for yourself by thinking that arab people are just told to think in certain way is not gonna get you anywhere. Problem is more complex than that. They know what they think and why they think the way they do and it doesnt have to do what their govrements or mullahs say.
You want an easy bombthemall solution dont read what I write. This is for serious people who want to discuss matters deeply.

Remember iran? before the clerics came and took over. They hade bars, clubs, cocacola, everything western standard so on. people werent brainwashed from the age of 5 reading the koran. Still they bought the religous mullahs arguments and became religiuos and threw out the shah. Now they regret it thou the point im trying to make is the same.

Dont do that big mistake and underestimate peoples will and thouths.

[mocking_loudly_died]

What the f*ck has any of this got to do with my beach party?

[Trigger]

People make up their own mind, they base their opinions on facts, things that happen in their countries...and the people who don't strap bombs to themselves. people there hade those ideas before aljazeera even existed. And its not only moslem who think like that, most christians, atheist communists and so on do aswell.

Those idiots in palestine are doing their cause because of political reasons. Really? then what's with all the post-bombing videos they release claiming that 'it's all in the name of Allah'?

edit: oh I forgot the american foreign policy, we can take than in another forum, another thread, it would ruin this one. The point is that I have right with saing arabs dont like american middleastern foreign policy. Well if you're going to say that in this thread you could at least answer my question instead of sidestepping it.

Whatever dude...you're in denial.

[cut]

What the f*ck has any of this got to do with my beach party?

Will the lovely lady in your avatar be there?

[ibstolidude]

ignore this
Don't worry we will.

[Beowulf]

What the f*ck has any of this got to do with my beach party?

you mean rock party- on the beach

[WARPIG]

one must remember long term planning for the military DOES NOT shap US foreign policy - it is the other way around.

It is not the role of the US military to come up with viable solutions to the GWOT - only military options/solutions.

Stoli has been reading confucious again.."one must never urinate into the wind."

This issue with terrorists is only a military one. I don't recall any terrorist calling from his truckbomb or from the airplane as, he noses it toward NYC, asking for any diplomatic concessions. I highly doubt that there was any diplomatic solution to the recent murders in Spain either. The biggest impact catching Osama will have will be a total blackout of any other news in the media, followed by reports of George Dubya's rising popularity in the election polls.

wow, you are incredibly off the mark. you have obviously not read any of the literature on the issue of security and development. terrorism, and threats to security in general, are often the result of social, economic, and/or political problems. this is simple security studies 101 stuff. hell, it's common sense. do you think mr. x wakes up one day and simply decides that he wants to become a terrorist? maybe he is politically disfranchised. maybe his economic prospects are dismal. perhaps his environment is toxic. these problems must be addressed.

if you remove the factors that lead individuals to consider terrorism as a recourse for change, you remove the threat. this is obviously a heck of a lot easier said than done, but measures can be taken to minimise the development of threats. take osama for example. the guy is obviously messed-up in the head, but he blames his actions partly on the fact that he feels the u.s. has violated the sanctity of his homeland, that the u.s. continues to support israel's "oppression" of palestinians. the i.r.a. emerged to combat what it perceived to be catholic disfranchisement. and so on and so forth.

there has to be a military response to terrorism, but it cannot be the only response nor it is necessarily the most important response. the unsung heroes in all of this are the non-governmental organisations and the united nations who help countless millions rise above the crap that could easily bring them down to a level where "terrorism", however you define it, could be considered as a viable solution to a real or perceived
problem(s).

Pay attention you dolt! Of course terrorism is influenced by politics. No one is denying that. There are many things that spark or influence a person to terrorism. Diplomacy does not mean politics. Diplomacy is the act or ability for someone to communicate with the other with some form of tact. Diplomacy when used in the context of armed conflict is an alternative to military or police force. Terrorists use threats to create a dialogue with their enemies. The threatened party uses language and tact (diplomacy) to either meet the demands or to negotiate the demands.

Terrorism today has been missing that opportunity. Even if it existed, what kind of dialogue would that be?
Terrorist demand: "Die infidel scum!"
Threatened party: "Uhmmmm... can we negotiate that?"

What is it that Al Queda wants? What is their goal? Without knowing that.. there is no opportunity to use diplomacy. The closest we come to that is by sending humanitarian aide to Iraq and Afghanistan. Guess what? Missionaries are being targeted. So much for that diplomatic relation.

Politically there is much we can do. Unfortunately military might is the only tool that has been effective so far.