The effect of the Socialist's victory in Spain for Europe

[fantassin]

The PSOE's victory in Spain will, I think, produce a lot of results on the international scene.

-First of all, I suppose Spain will now come back into the "Old Europe" category for Rumsfeld and his cronies...

-Bush has lost a crucial ally in Europe so the EU will become more confident in its opposition to the USA

-Spain has announced it will withdraw its units from Iraq (see relevant thread for details)

-Spain will stop systematically following the USA in foreign affairs

-Poland will now be isolated in its anti-European constitution's stance

-The UK-Italy-Spain alliance over Iraq being now broken, it will spur the Italians on to follow suite

Any other ideas on what will happen next?

[cut]

The UK will slyly move closer to a more transatlantic role, where it belongs

[Herrmannek]

This is bad turn....

[cut]

not necessarily

[Saranof]

THE EVIL COMMIES TAKE OVER AND ADAM SANDL..

Well, I don't think they'll do that much. Actually.

[Quon Sen Hutt]

What happens is that socialist Europe becomes more and more irrelevent.

[fantassin]

The Spanish Prime Minister Zapatero has just announced he wants to mend fences with France and Germany, to come back to a European-centric policy and to sign the proposed European Constitution that was until then blocked by Aznar's government and Poland.

Poland now stand alone in its opposition to the EU Constitution.

And yes, Spain comes back into OLD EUROPE !

[Aeron]

He said that Spain will drive it's Politic where it belongs, enhance realtions with:

- SouthAmerica
- Europe
- Mediterranean countries

So I think all presure Spain made to keep a position in Europe, maintaining the power Niza Treat give us, will go to hell :'(

[cut]

What happens is that socialist Europe becomes more and more irrelevent.

In your dreams, yes-men are irrelevant, those that stand up for their beliefs make waves.

[Quon Sen Hutt]

You can go home. We will fight our war with the Islamic religious fanatics.

Old Europe will have even less influence than they do now because they refuse to help in the war on terror. If they are not part of the alliance, then they have no say on what we do to Syria and Iran.

[aeternum]

You can go home. We will fight our war with the Islamic religious fanatics.

Old Europe will have even less influence than they do now because they refuse to help in the war on terror. If they are not part of the alliance, then they have no say on what we do to Syria and Iran.

Yea please do me a favour and attack Iran. Right now around 40% of all US forces are reserve soldiers. How do you think you can attack a country and occupying it, which is by far more huge than Iraq? Where do you want to take all that men? Unless the US does intoduce the draft, you wont be able to do that. Thats what Iraq teached you. You can easily win wars against 3rd world countries, but you are miles away to bring peace to it. Time to wake up man!

[cut]

You can go home. We will fight our war with the Islamic religious fanatics.

Old Europe will have even less influence than they do now because they refuse to help in the war on terror. If they are not part of the alliance, then they have no say on what we do to Syria and Iran.

So other than the Islamic religious fanatics you created in Iraq (which is the issue here not terrorsim), which ones were you aiming for there? The war in Iraq was not against terrorists it was against the cruelty of Saddam, the threat of WMD and in terms of economic reasons, getting iraqi oil on the free market.


Old Europe may have less influence among americans but that's not what they want. Europe is gaining power by representing an alternative to a homogenous west. Europe has lost influence by being devided and in the shadow of the 2 superpowers in the cold war, now is the time to be more independent, the US is not always right.

[SeanAshi]

Islamic terrorist will find some other reason to attack countries in Europe, but Europe will find other reasons to blame the United States.
The war in Iraq was not against terrorists it was against the cruelty of Saddam, the threat of WMD and in terms of economic reasons, getting iraqi oil on the free market.
If all we wanted was oil we would go down to Venezuela and take it. Iraq on the other side of the world, Venezuela is in our back yard.

[littlefrench]

This is bad turn....

lol, you are right this is a bad turn for poland and USA, but a good turn for the europeans countries and for Europe community.

[Whistler]

Its also a good turn for the terrorist groups.

Yay! Good turns!

[littlefrench]

I would like to say 2 things

1) I'm very happy of the victory of the socialists in Spain, I'm happy for Spain and for Europe, Aznar was a bad president.

2)I'm really sorry because the terrorists have won. Their crimes have given the power to the ennemies of aznar. I would prefer that aznar would have lost the power whitout the attacks of madrid

[Mark Sman]

Quon Sen Hutt

/\
/ \
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He he
I doubt anyone here gets that.

[Herrmannek]

Fucck..in that case we need to get a bomb... on you know who :)

[littlefrench]

Its also a good turn for the terrorist groups.

Yay! Good turns!



You are right, that's painful but aznar has too much lied to the Spanish about the attacks of madrid

[cut]

Islamic terrorist will find some other reason to attack countries in Europe, but Europe will find other reasons to blame the United States.

You make it sound like you want Europe to blame the US so that you can hate them, what do you have against Europe? Islamic terrorists have a very good reason to attack european countries, here it is (http://media.militaryphotos.net/photos/Allied_Forces_In_Afghanistan). I think too many americans forget that, focus on Iraq which is not viewed in Europe as part of the war against al qaida.
If you think it is, feel free to try and convince me.






The war in Iraq was not against terrorists it was against the cruelty of Saddam, the threat of WMD and in terms of economic reasons, getting iraqi oil on the free market.
If all we wanted was oil we would go down to Venezuela and take it. Iraq on the other side of the world, Venezuela is in our back yard.
exactly, but oil is not all you wanted, finishing off saddam, and all the good that would do for iraqis, was also a factor.

Think of it like this, those that say it was all about oil were wrong, as you say venezuela would be easier. But if it was about getting rid of a dictator, Zimbabwe would have been a better target. And if it was only about WMD it would be N. Korea (and that would have taken out the last out post of Stalinism, the worlds most cruel dictator and not piss off arabs)

[MARINO]

I would like to say 2 things

1) I'm very happy of the victory of the socialists in Spain, I'm happy for Spain and for Europe, Aznar was a bad president.

2)I'm really sorry because the terrorists have won. Their crimes have given the power to the ennemies of aznar. I would prefer that aznar would have lost the power whitout the attacks of madrid

You are French no Spanish, do you know anything about spanish affairs. Aznar was the best president of our democracy and of our history, Zapatero has any preparation, until yesterday nobody including him belive in his victory. A bad day for Spain.For Europe, and for was against terror.
Sorry USA Sorry Iraq.

[fantassin]

A bad day(...).For Europe

Most definitly not; a truly excellent day for the unity of the EU and one less Trojan horse inside Europe.

[Quon Sen Hutt]

I think too many americans forget that, focus on Iraq which is not viewed in Europe as part of the war against al qaida.
If you think it is, feel free to try and convince me.


There is more to Islamic terrorism than Al Qaida. Remember that Saddam supported Abu Nidal, remember too that we caught Abu Abbas in Baghdad.

Iran? Syria? We remember how they supported the Islamic terrorists in Lebanon.

Now someone mentioned that we have deployed 40% of our reserves. That is because Bill Clinton, a socialist swine, did so much of the military cutbacks during the 1990's. We only need to return to the defense buildup of the 1980's when Reagon was running things. We could take Iran and Syria at the same time and we don't need such weak allies like the French.

[fantassin]

we don't need such weak allies like the French.


Apparently the US government thinks differently.



U.S. Expected to Ask Germany, France To Send Troops To Iraq 11/07/2003 DW

The U.S. says it will need help bringing Iraq under control.



With the U.S. Senate poised to request NATO troops to stabilize security in Iraq, the German and French governments are expecting to be asked to send their own soldiers, despite their opposition to the war.

Following Thursday's unanimous decision by the United States Senate to request NATO support for its occupation of Iraq, Germany and France are expected to receive official requests for troops.

But officials in both France and Germany have said they would oppose even considering sending troops without a United Nations mandate. A spokesman for the German Defense Ministry confirmed his ministry's stance to Deutsche Welle on Thrusday.

The latest diplomatic negotiations come against a backdrop of rising violence and instability in Iraq. Every day, new reports come out of attacks against U.S. soldiers. A total of 31 have been killed since U.S. President George W. Bush announced the end of the main fighting in Iraq in May. Reports also indicate that morale among the 146,000 U.S. soldiers currently stationed in Iraq is plunging. The U.S. government also admitted this week that costs have increased dramatically – rising from approximately $2 billion a month in April, taxpayers were told they would have to spend to $3.9 billion a month now.

On Wednesday and Thursday, U.S. Defense Secretary Donald Rumsfeld spent two days before the Senate answering questions about Operation Iraqi Freedom and the recent spiral of violence.

Retired U.S. General Tommy Franks said the country should expect to have troops stationed in Iraq for as long as four years.

"I anticipate we'll be involved in Iraq in the future," Franks told the House Armed Services Committee Thursday. "Whether that means two years or four years, I don't know."

Sharing the burden

With rising costs and an increasing number of deaths among American and British soldiers, U.S. politicians are now keen to share the burden with other countries. On Thursday, the Senate voted 97-0 to request that the president "consider requesting formally and expeditiously that NATO raise a force for deployment in post-war Iraq similar to what it has done in Afghanistan, Bosnia and Kosovo."

Currently Polish, Italian and Spanish troops are on the ground alongside American and British soldiers in Iraq, but those countries, despite their NATO membership, are not participating in the occupying forces under the auspices of NATO. Now, a number of U.S. politicians want to expand that roster of countries.

Democratic Senator John Kerry, who is a candidate for the U.S. presidency, said it was time to bring the international community into the rebuilding and security effort in Iraq. "It is time for the president to tell the truth that we lack sufficient forces to do the job of reconstruction in Iraq and withdraw in a reasonable time," Kerry said. "America should not go it alone."

The discussion came after Rumsfeld on Wednesday said he wanted to make a request to NATO members to send troops to Iraq to support the U.S. and British soldiers already stationed there. As NATO members, Germany and France – the most vocal opponents of the war in Iraq – are likely to be among those asked to aid in those efforts.

"Our goal is to get large numbers of international forces in from lots of countries, including those two," Rumsfeld said on Tuesday.

Trouble for Berlin

But the request could throw the government of Chancellor Gerhard Schröder into a crisis. If the request comes, the government would be faced with two choices: It could offer its support and send German NATO troops to Iraq or it could contribute financially to the immense costs of democratizing the country.

It's unlikely Germany will send troops to Iraq considering that the Bundeswehr has already been stretched to its limits with other peacekeeping operations. It currently has over 8,000 German soldiers deployed on foreign missions -- mostly in Afghanistan and in the Balkans region. With an anticipated €30 billion shortfall in its 2004 fiscal budget, it is also unlikely Germany will be able to contribute much by way of checkbook diplomacy.

Unnamed German government sources told Deutsche Welle on Thursday that the idea of Germany sending peacekeeping troops to Iraq isn't even a subject for debate at this point.

Meanwhile, French Foreign Minister Dominique de Villepin has said that French soldiers would only be deployed at the request of the United Nations. If NATO does submit official requests to Germany and France, and they are rejected, it would once again portray NATO as a divided alliance.

In February, Germany, France and Belgium launched one of the worst crises in NATO's 53-year history after they intially vetoed a U.S. request to begin planning to defend Turkey if Iraq launched an attack on its neighbor response to a U.S. invasion. The countries maintained that such preparations would suggest war against Iraq was inevitable. Eventually, the three agreed to change their positions, but the event demonstrated a level of discord that threatened the future of NATO. The alliance has been struggling to redefine its mission in the post-Cold War era.

Next week, German Foreign Minister Joschka Fischer is expected to make his first trip to the United States since the war and some in government circles fear troop participation could become an issue, even though it's not on the planned agenda.

[Luxembourger]

weak allies like the French.

they are not weak ,they do a lot on the front against terrorism.

What would have been the effect if France would have gone to war with the americans , a country with 6000 000 arab citizens ? Rioting , more violence in french suburbs ?

this is not an anti-arab comment, but you must agree that the french arabs would have been very very upset if the government would have gone to war in Iraq.

[Loco]

Still there are only 24 hours since the elections, and there´re some voices in Spain(an association linked with militaries) that said it would be a bad thing going out of Irak for Spain and the rest of people. All I say to apocaliptic people here terrified only because a country of 40 million people had elections is that the winner of elections said he´ll pull back spanish troops from Irak if there isn´t A CLEAR COMPROMISE OF UN. There was an agreement about Haiti, and I remember to the frenchs, who usually always know the truth, that they have pulled back from Haiti, together with americans, an elected president, which is not the case of Saddam Hussein. I suggest to everybody being more comprehensive with real politiks.
And about an european constitution, hehe, that´s another business. Nice is a beautiful french city, and there everybody had an agreement, and there´s no question in changing that agreement signed by gentlemen. Btw, in Nice died in 1536 in Nice Garcilaso de la Vega in the siege of a castle, he was a knight, a gentleman and a poet, who developed the modern spanish poetry, really he was an european poet, he lived, loved and fought in many countries, he was exiliated in a danubian island, he introduced italian style verses in Spain and he died in France. This is not politic, or yes?, anyway, I´m sure Garcilaso wouldn´t like nor Aznar nor the illuminates who tried to trick everybody in europe raping the agreement of Nice and the stability pact in their own benefit. ;)
"Entre las armas del sangriento Marte,
do apenas hay quien su furor contraste,
hurté de tiempo aquesta breve suma,
tomando ora la espada, ora la pluma"...
http://www.garcilaso.org/fotos/garcilaso.jpg

[fantassin]

that they have pulled back from Haiti, together with americans, an elected president

Kim Il Sung from North Korea was also elected, as well as Adolf Hitler; it's not the guarantee that the "elected" leader is a good leader...

[Whistler]

Fantassin your article is months old and media speculation.

[fantassin]

Krauthammer did another one last week saying exactly the same thing; his theory is that France should now eat humble pie and come and contribute to the "stabilization" of Iraq.

Blackadder would say "FAT CHANCE" and I can add "over my dead body".

Nobody in France wants to do the after sales service of the USA after having been dragged in the mud for two years.

[sierraone]

How has it become that we in Europe have to shape our foreign policy dependant on the muslims that live here? They came here to escape persecution in their own countries, for a better life with democracy and prosperity. Now they are muslims first, french or british or greek second. Now they are going to shape our policy? now we are afraid of them? now we are blinded to the fact that terrorism is directly linked to their religion. According to the Guardian today more than 80% of 'british' muslims dissaproved strongly of Britain's war in Iraq. 13% believed that terrorist attacks would be justified! Why? Is it a coincidence? No they are muslim first. If a muslim country goes to war with a non-muslim country they automatically support the muslim country even if the other party is the country they live in or even born in. Wake up and smell the coffee!!

[Loco]

Kim Il Sung from North Korea was also elected, as well as Adolf Hitler; it's not the guarantee that the "elected" leader is a good leader...
You can´t compare Kim Il Sung with Hitler in the way they took the power, nor that´s a similar case in Haiti. Btw, there are half a dozen like Aristide that frenchs troops are supporting in Africa, I wonder why. Perhaps there isn´t a better relief for them? May be, I only point that France knows how to agree with USA when thinks is good for you even if you have to jump over some statements you said months ago, but if the result is good, ça va bien.

[fantassin]

Btw, there are half a dozen like Aristide that frenchs troops are supporting in Africa,

Go on, name them.


France knows how to agree with USA when thinks is good for you

Exactly, it's called foreign policy; you do what is good for your country first, then you see if it's convenient for big brother too. Not the other way around, unless you want to end up like Aznar of course.

[Loco]

Btw, there are half a dozen like Aristide that frenchs troops are supporting in Africa,

Go on, name them.
The president of Gabon in first place. Perhaps he´s good for France, or for the big numbers of economy, I don´t know, but he´s a tyranne with a democrat façade and a consumated raper.

[SeanAshi]

, as you say venezuela would be easierRead my post again, where did I say Venezuela would be eazier?

[fantassin]

The president of Gabon

rofl

Omar Bongo ? he's got one of the cleanest record in Africa ! check your data hombre, you 've completely missed the point there.

If he's in power it's mostly because he is supported by top Free Masons from around the world, being a high level Mason himself.

For SierraOne


No they are muslim first. If a muslim country goes to war with a non-muslim country they automatically support the muslim country even if the other party is the country they live in or even born in. Wake up and smell the coffee!!


Any bad experience with the Turks by any chance....?!!

[Loco]

The president of Gabon

rofl

Omar Bongo ? he's got one of the cleanest record in Africa ! check your data hombre, you 've completely missed the point there.

If he's in power it's mostly because he is supported by top Free Masons from around the world, being a high level Mason himself.
Don´t laugh, perhaps he´s clean for african standards, the last thing he did was kidnapping Miss Perú. Well, I´m in some way comprehensive with that p-) But don´t tell me is a good good behaviour for a president, no sir.

[fantassin]

At least he's got taste...

I have been to Africa enough to tell you the overall level of French supported African presidents has risen tremendously since the La Baule summit in 1996 when Mitterand said France would not support regimes that had a bad human right record.

For example, and mostly because of that decision not to support that sort of regime, the Central African Republic asked France to remove all its military forces from the country in 1997.

In 2003, after a change of regime without any French involvment, the same country asked France to come back again...and now there are French troops there again.

[Loco]

In 2003, after a change of regime without any French involvment, the same country asked France to come back again...and now there are French troops there again.
Napoleon said Carlos IV asked him somthing similiar, but our people had other opinion about that, you know the results. You know more than me about Africa for sure, but please don´t tell me Omar Bongo is demcrat...

[fantassin]

There is no democracy anywhere in Africa; it's an alien concept for them. Most humble people are not even interested in democracy.

What they want is a strong chief they can be afraid of, respect, look at like a father and they don't mind keeping them in power for over 20 years like Bongo or Houpouët before he died.

Once, in an isolated village in Chad, an old Chadian asked me when the joke would finally be over and when the French would finally come back and put the country straight...and it happens often.

[BlackRain]

that they have pulled back from Haiti, together with americans, an elected president

Kim Il Sung from North Korea was also elected, as well as Adolf Hitler; it's not the guarantee that the "elected" leader is a good leader...

Ha! It is pretty easy to get "elected" when your dad is the former dictator and there is only one name on the ballot (i.e. yours)!

Trojan Horse?

Your arguments do not reflect alot of thought or research. Perhaps, you should spend a little more time thinking before hitting the key board, my friend?

[fantassin]

What do you expect, I am French !


Is Poland America’s Trojan horse in Europe? An interview with the Polish president
By Piotr Milewski, Nowy Dziennik / Polish Daily News, 1 February 2004. Translated from Polish by Ania Milweska.

Nowy Dziennik: Which of the issues mentioned in your Dec 31, 2003 letter to George Bush have been resolved and which ones only touched upon?

President Kwasniewski: Touched upon? Certainly all of them. Which ones got resolved? We will have to wait and see. The entry-exit visa issues have their own dynamics, but I am optimistic with the progress that has been already made. As for Iraq, we have been promised that Poland will be included in the projects …

ND: … get contracts to reconstruct the destroyed cities …

PK: A U.S. mission will be sent to Poland in the near future to discuss this issue in greater depth.

ND: What exactly should Polish citizens expect in regard to U.S. visa requirements?

PK: Our ultimate goal, which we are voicing openly, is for Americans to drop visa requirements for Polish citizens. But it won’t happen overnight. U.S. Congress and the Bush Administration’s decisions will play a key role here. Also the internal and external security of the United States is a factor. I believe that the formation of a team to conduct all the necessary work on this issue and to propose a timeline for progress is very rational. No one is being short-changed. We are saying that we want the visa requirement to be dropped. Americans say that it cannot happen overnight. Meanwhile, they are more than willing to make the visa procedures easier. These gradual, positive changes include: having more consuls; the creation of institutions to consider the appeals for denied visa applications; prescreening at Polish airports to avoid problems at U.S. airports and to simplify entry-exit procedures. These are really important changes and I hope to see them happening very soon. At the same time, Polish citizens residing in America should play by the rules: don’t stay there illegally; pay for your traffic violations; clean up Augias’ stable.

ND: Who will be responsible for the costs of immigration control at the Polish airports: Poles or Americans?

PK: The Americans would take on this financial responsibility. However, we need to understand that applicants all over the world are financially responsible for the administrative fee involved in the U.S. visa application procedures. There won’t be exceptions made for Poland. Given that we are responsible for covering those administrative fees, the United States has to take on the responsibility for other expenses.

ND: How much help will the Polish army receive from the United States?
PK: The range of help is gradually expanding. The $66 million proposed for next year is very significant, making Poland one of the countries to receive major, not just symbolic, financial aid from the United States. This money will be used to cover the cost of airplanes, which are very much needed by our country. In previous years, U.S. financial help was spent on cars.

We have a modernization plan prepared for our military. I hope that over the next few years the money given to us by the United States – hopefully in increasing amounts – will be spent according to those needs. The most important goal for 2006 is to refurbish Polish equipment being used in Iraq. We are on the right path and the Americans appreciate it, or so they say. Poland is a very important strategic U.S. ally. Therefore, we should increase our cooperation in certain areas, such as the modernization of our infrastructure and of our army equipment.

ND: Is Bumar (a Polish producer of weapons) going to be granted a contract to supply weapons to the Iraqi army?

PK: According to President Bush, this matter is not within his power. All contracts are granted through competitive bids. This is not a question for me either. If I told you today that I used all my influence so that Bumar would be awarded a contract, I would have a lot of explaining do. The adjudication is still in progress – the rules are commonly known – and Bumar’s offer is a serious one. We have done all that’s in our power to convince the Americans that our proposal is a quality one. Now we have to wait and see what happens.

What do you think about the present state of Polish-American relations? The recent polls indicate that Poles are somewhat disappointed in America’s lack of eagerness to keep their promises. National Security Advisor Marek Siwiec said, before your visit to the United States, that American-Polish relations may come to a standstill.

PK: Based on the outcome of my meeting with President Bush, I don’t see that there is this risk. Our relations are good, only sometimes our expectations are too high. Americans do not expect as much from us. But it’s good that the Polish society speak its mind. It’s good that there’s a sense of pressure and that we act in our own interest. The United States is a huge country and huge countries, to be honest, often forget about their much smaller partners. You have to remind them you are there. You should have expectations, but they must be rational and reasonable. We need to understand that legislation and politics don’t happen overnight. The times of the dictatorship are over. Democracy has taken center stage and that means there are procedures to follow, which require effort and patience.

Where are the Iraqi weapons of mass destruction, which David Kay – Chief of the American Committee of experts – has been unable to find for more than six months? Will there be negative consequences for Poland because of that? The administration will change, yet the United States will still be a powerful empire that other countries have to listen to. Poland will be left alone, scarred with the image of Trojan horse at America’s service in Europe.

PK: That’s a good question. Where are they? I will repeat what I said in the presence of President Bush: We want to prove, at all costs, that the weapons were there. We need to consider the fact – established before Hans Bilix’s mission of started – that Saddam Hussein did everything possible to have the necessary technologies to produce weapons of mass destruction, or to give the impression that he had the weapons. An American journalist asked me if we weren’t looking for a toy gun. Possibly. But the politician’s responsibility is to find out if the one who uses weapons of mass destruction as a threat to scare others is being serious or not. Is it okay to assume that a terrorist is faking and do nothing to later find out that he was serious? We had a perfect example of such situation in Iraq. So, the international community – including Poland – decided to stop that game. We made the right choice. I can imagine a situation when you’d be asking me right now: “Iraq had weapons of mass destruction and used them. Why didn’t we do anything to stop it?” I prefer today’s situation. It’s much better for the world this way.

[Loco]

There is no democracy anywhere in Africa; it's an alien concept for them. Most humble people are not even interested in democracy.

What they want is a strong chief they can be afraid of, respect, look at like a father and they don't mind keeping them in power for over 20 years like Bongo or Houpouët before he died.

Once, in an isolated village in Chad, an old Chadian asked me when the joke would finally be over and when the French would finally come back and put the country straight...and it happens often.
Well, I think someday they´ll have to grow up, and France could teach them about that, not leaving them like children of 40 years old. And talking about Haiti, I suppose you know well the french history about that former colony. There´s a cuban writer, Alejo Carpentier, french father, who wrote a book about the independence of Haiti, " El reino de este mundo", is a master piece, and he wrote another novel about the french revolution in a french caribbean island, "El siglo de las luces". They were written in spanish but I´m sure they are published in french, highly recommended.

[fantassin]

Going to Haiti serves three purposes:

-help the locals and try to stop the fightings

-mend fences with the USA

-show small countries that France helps small countries in need; it's very useful when there is a vote in the UN.

[Navy]

This is very bad for the whole western world, because the only real winner is the terrorists. Its a pitty to see the spaniards voting like al-queda wants...

Personally, as an european and western-world person i think this is really bad. Do you sorry asses really think that al-queda wont bomb the whole world if they could? They will probably bomb EVEN france. Then the franchies can be sorry...

Losers! rofl

[TA_GONE_AWOL]

Nice to see such camaraderie among the Europeans.

I agree whole heartedly - It's about time that Europe develop its own sphere of influence and stop hanging on the coattails of the good ol' US of A… what, isn’t that what I’m supposed to say…?

The European Union is (at least to me) frighteningly reminiscent of something imagined in Orwell's 1984. Btw, the person who goes by the pseudonym of 'Cut', after reading your posts, I can’t help but figure you as some kind of ****ensian character; ranting and raving like Slackbridge, selling your brand of crooked idealism ‘all for the low, low price of your soul’. Maybe the war in Iraq does represent different things for different people. For me, it represents an attempt to bring the freedom which I enjoy, to those who don’t have it. I find it pretty callous, when folks can so readily deny others something which they deem so essential for themselves.

As for me, I prefer seeing a free Iraq without Saddam and his two nutty off-spring, ‘Oudai-my-Qusai’. I believe it is our obligation to protect the weaker members of our global community - to provide for their needs both materially and spiritually. When it comes to these issues, I’m none partisan.

As for the Spanish elections…they’re merely reflective of the continuing human struggle between people with honour, decency and a capacity for self-sacrifice against those opportunistic, greedy, cowardly members of our race. I cannot stand ideologues, which is what most socialists are; from the same folks who brought you the tower of Babel, these folks, have instead decided, to try and bring heaven to earth with all their godless legalism - good luck. At the end of the day, we’re all either with God or not. In the end, there is no nationality, language or race, save that which serves God.

[fantassin]

You forgot "God Bless America" at the end of your speech.

And "them" and "us" and "good" and "evil" and "with us" and "against us"...




believe it is our obligation to protect the weaker members of our global community - to provide for their needs both materially and spiritually

Are you for real ? or no, you just are trying to be the perfect caricature of the American is it....?

The US of A providing for my spiritual need ???!!!! Am I reading right there ? No wonder there is a war of civilization brewing when I see such complete rubbish posted with a straight face.

You will just never ever learn will you ? Keep your model and your spiritual need and your 400,000 people dying of obesity every year, we are doing fine thank you.

Unbelievable...my spiritual needs...

[mustamato]

Unbelievable...my spiritual needs...

Ungrateful french bastard. Keep in mind that you could have been talking Russian
now and been licking the boots of your Gulag commander. "Spiritual needs".

[fantassin]

I'd rather have my back door kicked in by a Goulag commander every morning after morning parade than have my "spiritual need" taken care of by a bible bashing American.

[hedgehog]

Blair is up for re-election, so is Bush.. I think this decision is a calculated one on where the buck will fall by the end of the year. British public opinion feels betrayed (I even chatted with the tommys here in Muenster and Osnabrueck that are heading over to Iraq soon, and they are downright pissed - and not with beer in this case :) ) The US dollar is in the baement and is unlikely to come up anytime soon with Bush's lack of any sound financial planning. (he's going to skip out on the bill and let the Democrats fix the problem) Spain cannot expect to get any significant investments from the US, because the buck has no purchasing power. ****, I remember the days when a US dollar could buy 1.15 Euro. Now the same US dollar will only buy 0.81 euro....you do the math. One does not have to be a genius to figure out why things happen a certain way.

From the track record in Afghanistan, Iraq will likely end up in a similar farce with a few isolated points of supposed working democracy, while literally having most of the country in one big mess.

It would probably have been better for the Spanish pm elect to say that troops would only be withdrawn "if" there is no transfer of power.

As for Poland, they will have to swing the other way sooner or later. Same as Aznar, the polish guy just wanted to play in the big league but that country has some serious internal issues to fix first (anyone that has been through there can attest to that.) That help will come for the European union and not the states. Italy is a dictatorship with Berlusconi at the helm and most italiens being too ignorant to see that they have another "IL DUCE" (Mussolini) at the helm.

Even in Alberta Canada (most loyal pro AMerican Canadians) are now againts the US government and the way it has conducted itself for the lat 1.5 years (please note...GOVERNMENT- not Americans)

Sooner or later Democracy will win...I sincerely HOPE!

As for the Middle east...yikes....that place is like Europe in the dark ages (ie. you are either with our our religion--- or let's see...YOU'RE DEAD! Fighting them will probably make them even more ignorant... let's see how this wall thing works in Israel...

So, back to the original point of the spanish decision.. a calcualted smart move... that's what good politicians do.

Cheers

[Kilgor]

I'd rather have my back door kicked in by a Goulag commander every morning after morning parade than have my "spiritual need" taken care of by a bible bashing American.

I think France needs to be invaded again to remind them what they are owed by Americans.

Btw.. did you know its the D Day + 60 this year ?
Going to pay your respect or be totally ungrateful ?

[Kilgor]

Unbelievable...my spiritual needs...

Ungrateful french bastard. Keep in mind that you could have been talking Russian
now and been licking the boots of your Gulag commander. "Spiritual needs".

rofl

without the Americans stalin wouldnt have stopped in Germany and would have kept on going and going till he saw the cliffs of dover over the channel.

Your centuries of precious culture would have been decimated by soviet style rule.

[Mr Gently Benevolent]

Your centuries of precious culture would have been decimated by soviet style rule.
Cool big furry hats. :D

[hedgehog]

Not taking any sides here, but first of all why are you up against the French again? One guy on here says something and you start ranting about invading an ally country? Even if you say it is a joke.. ..

Oh, and by the way for the military experts... Flanders Fields is not in Frnace..

[Navy]

No, right... Hes a clown from Belgium. Better?

[TA_GONE_AWOL]

LOL...Fatassin.

No, I was using lofty prose for the purposes of satire; the intention is quite clear.

So…

No, I was not being serious. Geesh, I realize you're not a native English speaker but wow. Apparently it was expecting too much for you to spot the apparent incongruence between religious and national identity. Oh and, yes, I do believe Christianity is the bedrock on which all good things are formed.

And by the way, I'm not an American citizen, but Canadian. And in all likelihood, one hell of a lot more ethnically ‘pure’ European, than yourself. That’s a fact, not a point. So making fun of N.Americans is really tantamount to insulting Europeans.

And I do have a gripe with socialism. It is an evil industry. I do not like ideologues as mentioned above and, of course, I mean that ubiquitously.

Finally, enough with the pseudo-intellectual, “we Europeans are so cerebral”, blah, blah, rubbish. Having studied abroad, I can assure you with one hundred percent certainty that there are smart folks on every corner of the globe - so enough. And as for your tendency to confuse right with might, a little compromise and open mindedness never hurt anybody.

Finally, you do not have permission to expropriate captions of my postings - unless you do so in manner that faithfully reproduces my original intent (which, as above, you proved incapable of doing). The way in which you folks cut and paste would put even the national inquirer to shame!

[Romulus]

You are right, that's painful but aznar has too much lied to the Spanish about the attacks of madrid

Heh, it's funny how Spainards say Anzar lied about the bombing. Christ it was only a few days ago, just how the hell are they suppose to determine who exactly perpetrated the bombing in such a short amount of time. It took us almost a week to be 100% certain Al Qaida was behind 9/11. Nice excuse Spainards,,, I ain't buying it.

[Kitsune]

TA_GONE_AWOL wrote:
The European Union is (at least to me) frighteningly reminiscent of something imagined in Orwell's 1984.

Thats exactly how it is here. I see you know Europe very well. :cantbeli:


Referring to the Spanish election:
As far as I realised it the Spanish people were upset that Aznar and his governement tried to influence the media to report that it was evident that ETA was behind the bombings. As it came out, that an Al Qaeda backround was probable, many people were furious over Aznars behaviour and changed to the Socialist party.
If that is what happened, I fail to see "the terrorists winning" or the "terrorists shaping European policy here".

I have said it already, I am glad to see Aznar go. His policy was destructive towards Europe. I admit, that I do not know much about his interior policy, which may have been great. Also his strong stance gainst ETA would find my support, if I were Spanish. But as a non Spanish, I find it hard to forgive him his toppling of the EU-Constitution, Nice is simply no way for the future. I hope his sucessor realizes this (but let's not rush things here. We will see). But I also hope that, he makes a good interior policy (he is socialist....hmmm) and continues the fight against terrorism.
I also realize, that many Spanish liked Aznar for increasing their countries standing in the world. Lets hope they can be satisfied with his sucessor in this regard as well.

Keep on going Spain!

[usa320]

I dunno...I think spain will continue the war on terrorism as a US Ally, just not to the extent that they are now. TO NOT CONTINUE THE FIGHT WOULD MAKE THE PSOE LOOK DOWNRIGHT NEGLIGENT. AFTER THAT ATTACK ON MADRID THE PEOPLE EXPECT SOME RESPONSE. Also, i think we could very well see a turn around from France and Germany. I think the attack on spain is a wake up call for those they have tried to ignore terrorism and brush it off as America's problem... I think this is part of the Reason why Jacque Chirac has asked for an Emergency EU meeting to discuss counter-terrorism efforts. I think they might actually have finally realized that terrorism is a global problem, and counterterrorism needs to be a global effort. Britain as always will continue to stand with America and Australia...as will Poland and Italy... a huge HOOAH to those countries for their support and seriousness when it comes to combatting terrorism and those that support terrorism. woot

[TA_GONE_AWOL]

have you read 1984?

ONE of the themes is government intrusion into personal privacy.

There are several other themes, which are germane to any criticism of modern government, power-blocks, etcetera.

Cheers.

p.s. yes i have travelled in Europe lately. I was in Munchen visiting my family last august.

[cut]

I think too many americans forget that, focus on Iraq which is not viewed in Europe as part of the war against al qaida.
If you think it is, feel free to try and convince me.


There is more to Islamic terrorism than Al Qaida. Remember that Saddam supported Abu Nidal, remember too that we caught Abu Abbas in Baghdad.

Iran? Syria? We remember how they supported the Islamic terrorists in Lebanon.

Now someone mentioned that we have deployed 40% of our reserves. That is because Bill Clinton, a socialist swine, did so much of the military cutbacks during the 1990's. We only need to return to the defense buildup of the 1980's when Reagon was running things. We could take Iran and Syria at the same time and we don't need such weak allies like the French.

Iraq had no links with the war on al qaida, nuff said.

that is what you guys seem not to understand. This is not a war against all terrorists, and it's not a war against all muslim terrorists ask the russians or the indians on this forum.

[SeanAshi]

Iraqi agents met with Muhammed Atta in Germany

[BlackRain]

The effect of the Socialist's victory in Spain for Europe?

The citizens will go around with their wrists bent downward, prance, and begin speaking with Spanish lisps!

[Durandal]

I'd rather have my back door kicked in by a Goulag commander every morning after morning parade than have my "spiritual need" taken care of by a bible bashing American.

Oh gee thanks...'cause all us 'Mericans are bible thumping retards.

Everytime I think, "hey, I may disagree with this guy a lot, but he seems ok anyway", you go and say something f*cking stupid like this.

[cut]

I'd rather have my back door kicked in by a Goulag commander every morning after morning parade than have my "spiritual need" taken care of by a bible bashing American.

Oh gee thanks...'cause all us 'Mericans are bible thumping retards.

Everytime I think, "hey, I may disagree with this guy a lot, but he seems ok anyway", you go and say something f*cking stupid like this.

agreed, I think exactly the opposite about the likes of sixgun

[cut]

The president of Gabon

rofl

Omar Bongo ? he's got one of the cleanest record in Africa ! check your data hombre, you 've completely missed the point there.

If he's in power it's mostly because he is supported by top Free Masons from around the world, being a high level Mason himself.
Don´t laugh, perhaps he´s clean for african standards, the last thing he did was kidnapping Miss Perú. Well, I´m in some way comprehensive with that p-) But don´t tell me is a good good behaviour for a president, no sir.

I lived in Gabon for 3 years in the eighties with Omar Bongo as president, he's good president by african standards and a decent president by international standards, don't diss him.

[littlefrench]

I would like to say 2 things

1) I'm very happy of the victory of the socialists in Spain, I'm happy for Spain and for Europe, Aznar was a bad president.

2)I'm really sorry because the terrorists have won. Their crimes have given the power to the ennemies of aznar. I would prefer that aznar would have lost the power whitout the attacks of madrid

You are French no Spanish, do you know anything about spanish affairs. Aznar was the best president of our democracy and of our history, Zapatero has any preparation, until yesterday nobody including him belive in his victory. A bad day for Spain.For Europe, and for was against terror.
Sorry USA Sorry Iraq.

I don't know anything about aznar's politic in Spain but I'm that his foreign politic was bad for Europe and so for Spain.

[littlefrench]

I'm sure, sorry for the mistake

[littlefrench]

Unbelievable...my spiritual needs...

Ungrateful french bastard. Keep in mind that you could have been talking Russian
now and been licking the boots of your Gulag commander. "Spiritual needs".


Hey! I don't agree all what said fantassin but don't insult us !! You say the American have save us, OK. So we always have to agree all they do ? We always have to think like them and shut up ? We have to have the same religion and the same ideas as them (capitalism...) ?

I'm not sure.

[littlefrench]

The president of Gabon

rofl

Omar Bongo ? he's got one of the cleanest record in Africa ! check your data hombre, you 've completely missed the point there.

If he's in power it's mostly because he is supported by top Free Masons from around the world, being a high level Mason himself.
Don´t laugh, perhaps he´s clean for african standards, the last thing he did was kidnapping Miss Perú. Well, I´m in some way comprehensive with that p-) But don´t tell me is a good good behaviour for a president, no sir.

I lived in Gabon for 3 years in the eighties with Omar Bongo as president, he's good president by african standards and a decent president by international standards, don't diss him.

And don't forget that TotalFinaElf is inplented in Gabon so we prefer when there is no problem in Gabon.

[cut]

My mum did some work for Shell in Gabon, I think they are the major oil company down there.

[HELEX]

@SeanAshi


Iraqi agents met with Muhammed Atta in Germany


The US-Goverment admitted there was ABSOLUTELY NO link between Iraq and Terrorism.... :roll:


So, who told you this Fairy tale? :) :D :lol:

[cut]

@SeanAshi


Iraqi agents met with Muhammed Atta in Germany


The US-Goverment admitted there was ABSOLUTELY NO link between Iraq and Terrorism.... :roll:


yeah I remember them saying that too

and if that were true these iraqi agents, iraqi students? There's an Iraqi on my course, as in a guy from Iraq not an imigrant.

[Aeron]

You are right, that's painful but aznar has too much lied to the Spanish about the attacks of madrid

Heh, it's funny how Spainards say Anzar lied about the bombing. Christ it was only a few days ago, just how the hell are they suppose to determine who exactly perpetrated the bombing in such a short amount of time. It took us almost a week to be 100% certain Al Qaida was behind 9/11. Nice excuse Spainards,,, I ain't buying it.

Completely TRUE, how did the want the authors just 2/3 days after??...

Another of the consecuences of PSOE Victory will be the lost of power from Spain and Poland in EU, Aznar was fighting to keep it ( of course He wanted the best for the country he represent ), and Zapatero & Co. has just said they don't want Niza treat anymore and that they will unblock the negotiation as soon as possible.

France & Germany will now control all EU congratulations.

[cut]

France & Germany will now control all EU congratulations.

UK, Italy and Poland when they join also control a lot of the EU

France and Germany can't make a decision about the EU without at least UK approval, quite nice really, and reassuring for americans, or it should be.

[obd]

Here is a simple fact for you all from an economic standpoint anyway: Europe is faltering economically. Europes combined GNP is basically stagnant and there is no sign that economic growth is going to match American or Asian growth rates. Europe is rapidly being left behind militarily and ecomically. The United States would benefit more from closer relations with China and other Asian nations then with Europe. If Europe wants to draw back within itself then that is fine. It will merely continue the pattern of economic and military decline that has been a slow moving pattern since World War Two. Not to say that Europe hasnt experience prosperous times of course but Im talking about relative to the rest of the world and when taken over the long term.......

If Spain feels more confortable as a socialist state and allied with France and Germany than so be it. In the long run it will only mean the slow deterioration of Spanish power and the Spanish economy as long as they remain socialist..........

The new economic boom for the next 50-100 years is going to be in Asia and the United States and Britian are perhaps the best positioned to take advantage of this, not Spain, not France, and not Germany.

I'd like to see how well Germany and Spain do after 50 years without the US subsidizing thier economies..............

[cut]

Britain has a social-democratic government, what makes you think you can condemn Spain because it has voted one in too. The European economy is not failing, it's about level at the moment, plus we don't have a huge amount of debt. Economies go up and down, what makes you think you know what's going to happen.

Just want to make sure are not under the same belief as Sixgun, that social-democratic are not capitalist, they are and that means you can't write them off like you do.

It seems like you just want this to happen, rather then make a more realistic coment.

[obd]

Why Europe feels America needs its help is beyond me. Bush needs Europes "help" more for political reasons than from a military standpoint.

Hell even in the "war on terros" in A-stan where Europe stands in "strong support" of America, they only contribute a few troops and dont really do a great deal to help (accept England of course)

I think the US should abandon Europe completely(accept England of course). Stop subsidizing Europe's economies, stop selling them technology, close all military bases that support local economies, stop accepting European teenagers into our superior university system, etc.. and let them on thier own. It seems to be what they want. We should stop treating them like helpless babies for ounce and let them out. Its time Europe grew up and left the house and became independent of America and failed of succeeded on its own terms

I for one am getting sick and tired of thier lack of gratitude and thier arogance......

[obd]

Hey Cut, I think there is a bif difference between the social democrats in England and the new socialist party ust elected in Spain. You cant really say they are the same. The Spanish socialist party is a hell of alot more leftist than the British............

[cut]

Why Europe feels America needs its help is beyond me. Bush needs Europes "help" more for political reasons than from a military standpoint.

I don't think america needs Europe, but life would be a lot harder without Europe. The american armed forces are streched enough as it is.



Hell even in the "war on terros" in A-stan where Europe stands in "strong support" of America, they only contribute a few troops and dont really do a great deal to help (accept England of course)

then don't say Europe then, say what you mean, don't generalise. The fact that you refer to the UK as England shows how ad-hoc your comments are, herdly thought out.



I think the US should abandon Europe completely(accept England of course). Stop subsidizing Europe's economies, stop selling them technology, close all military bases that support local economies, stop accepting European teenagers into our superior university system, etc.. and let them on thier own. It seems to be what they want. We should stop treating them like helpless babies for ounce and let them out. Its time Europe grew up and left the house and became independent of America and failed of succeeded on its own terms

subsidising european economies? are you talking about eastern europe? We don't need your technology. Superior university system my arse. If we are so dependent on you why does the US kick up a fuss when we try and create a EU RRF? Why do you kick up a fuss when France and Germany decide they have nothing to gain from a war in Iraq. We don't want to spend money on you, the US is wealthy enough.




I for one am getting sick and tired of thier lack of gratitude and thier arogance......

gratitude for what? you talk about arrogance straight after moaning about a lack of gratitude, do you see the hypocracy? By all means let Europe do it's own thing, on one hand you won't stop blabbering about how we don't support you and then you say Europe is not independent enough, will you make your mind up?

[2Sheds_Jackson]

Europe may be a lost cause in the long term - this seems to be the unexpressed opinion of Europe's leaders. Rather than fight the influx of radical Islam, they appear to be more into appeasement. They recognize that their unsustainable cradle-to-grave social systems require ever more immigration to finance the massive central governments. They can't afford to close the door.

Those in power are selling out their countrymen rather than lose the power & prestige the "system" gives them. What do they care if the country is slowly transformed via legal immigration into a de-facto Islamic state? They need gas for the Benz!

Europe is stuck with the radical Islamists at their back door - they already let many of them in before catching on to what was happening - now it's probably too late to beat them back.

At least Britain seems to be putting up a fight, there may be hope for them yet. As for the rest - I wish them well, but I can only imagine what "old Europe" is going to be like in 80 years. Prolly a lot like India/Pakistan/Kashmir or Israel/Palestine - all partitioned up along religious lines after enough radical Muslims settle in designated areas.

Hey, the US has a similar, though non-religious problem with our neighbor Mexico. Nobody is willing to even seriously talk about the immigration problem in the border states. Again, they stick with the status quo, rather than make waves & possibly lose office. Ah, politics.

[cut]

Europe may be a lost cause in the long term - this seems to be the unexpressed opinion of Europe's leaders. Rather than fight the influx of radical Islam, they appear to be more into appeasement. They recognize that their unsustainable cradle-to-grave social systems require ever more immigration to finance the massive central governments. They can't afford to close the door.

if you think Europe is a lost cause wtf is the point in bothering about Iraq?

I'm sure their will have to be changes in the welfare systems as the years go by but at the moment they work very well.



Those in power are selling out their countrymen rather than lose the power & prestige the "system" gives them. What do they care if the country is slowly transformed via legal immigration into a de-facto Islamic state? They need gas for the Benz!

no, Aznar is an example of someone who sold out his countrymen and he got his comeuppence


Europe is stuck with the radical Islamists at their back door - they already let many of them in before catching on to what was happening - now it's probably too late to beat them back.

That has never stopped us before. What makes you think you know what is going on in European countries better than the people that run these countries?


At least Britain seems to be putting up a fight, there may be hope for them yet. As for the rest - I wish them well, but I can only imagine what "old Europe" is going to be like in 80 years. Prolly a lot like India/Pakistan/Kashmir or Israel/Palestine - all partitioned up along religious lines after enough radical Muslims settle in designated areas.

Britain and Europe are very similar the only reason you exclude them from a grim prediction is because we decided to go to war with the US in Iraq, this says a lot for your predictions (and obd's).

As for what can happen in the next 80 years, anything can happen but one thing is for sure the close relationship or some may say dependence of Europe on the US is over, a relic of the Cold War, now Europe is not being held down, it will do a lot better, why do you think US governments are stressing about it so much, desperately compeeting for influence with the likes of France for any European Nations still deciding on it's future.



Hey, the US has a similar, though non-religious problem with our neighbor Mexico. Nobody is willing to even seriously talk about the immigration problem in the border states. Again, they stick with the status quo, rather than make waves & possibly lose office. Ah, politics.

I think you'll find the problem is a lot less religious when you actually come into contact with these immigrants. Europe doesn't stick with the status quo, a lot more changes are happening here than anywhere else.

[YankeeDeVallecas]

Europe is not being held down anymore? The US was holding Europe down??? Wow...I guess the Marshall Plan and its legacy worked and Europe has been a US slave... :roll:

[2Sheds_Jackson]

Yeah, left on it's own Europe would have been a paradise. Oh did I say paradise? I meant a goose-stepping smoldering ruin.

[rafaelcb]

There has been a lot of silly writing about the consequences of PSOE's victory in Spain. Please remember that this is the same party that used to organize demonstrations against NATO and then joined NATO when they were in the government. (BTW, Mr. Javier Solana, EX-NATO general secretary and now EU's Mr. Pesc is a member of PSOE)
For the moment all that Mr. Zapatero has said is that the troops will return UNLESS there is a UN authority in Irak. The UNLESS is the clue.
There are already some signs that this will be like that. 'El Pais' newspaper (pro-socialist) has a long article defending that the troops should remain, and 'Canal+' (again pro-socialist) right now showed a Zapatero-puppet singing: "My first promise, My first compromise; My first lie, Troops will return from Irak" ;)

Just relax and let's concentrate on finding those bastards :bash:

[TALOS]

What makes you think you know what is going on in European countries better than the people that run these countries?


I dont know, maybe the same way all the Europeans always claim to know what the US is "really" up to and whats best for Americans.
It goes both ways in these forums.

[cut]

Yeah, left on it's own Europe would have been a paradise. Oh did I say paradise? I meant a goose-stepping smoldering ruin.

yeah yeah **** off, I said post cold war.

[cut]

Europe is not being held down anymore? The US was holding Europe down??? Wow...I guess the Marshall Plan and its legacy worked and Europe has been a US slave... :roll:

There are US troops in Europe, would you like EU troops in the US. The US had a hissy fit over France and Germany, if that is not intervening what is?

[cut]

What makes you think you know what is going on in European countries better than the people that run these countries?


I dont know, maybe the same way all the Europeans always claim to know what the US is "really" up to and whats best for Americans.
It goes both ways in these forums.

I agree, but I don't claim to know any more than americans on internal issues, if I ever have I usually find myself out of my depth and unintrested. But americans try to tell me about the EU. On international affairs however which I do comment on is fair game for everyone. EU affairs are international too, but understand what I mean what I mean by internal within the EU..

[Loco]

Just 1 question: Does anyone really think spanish will leave from Irak without honoring their compromise???
Answer yourself.

[YankeeDeVallecas]

Ummm....there are EU troops in the US. Ever heard of the German Luftwaffe in New Mexico? Holloman AFB is crawling with them.

http://www.flgausbzlw.net/

How about some Asian units...are there Asian units stationed in Europe?

At Cannon AFB there is at least one or two Singapore F-16 units.

These are just a couple of examples.

So every time the US doesn't agree with a European political action the A-10's launch from Spangahelm Air Base and bomb Berlin? When the UK goverment does something we don't like the F-15's from RAF Lakenheath strafe Buckingham palace? I guess since Spain voted for a PSOE majority the Naval forces in Rota should shell Cadiz....Give me a break.

You know as well as I do that US/NATO forces in Europe are not there to intimidate the countries they are in. If the people of UK want the bases out all they have to do is vote them out...just like Spain did to the US presence in Torrejon.


The US had a hissy fit over France and Germany, if that is not intervening what is?

That's intervening? :slap: No, what the US did was get pissed off at two allies that didn't participate in something the US felt they should. What did the US do? Lots of rehtoric and the French and Germans don't get first dibs to Iraqi contracts. Are you going to argue that they should get first dibs? Again I say :slap:

[-Max2-]

How about some Asian units...are there Asian units stationed in Europe?

At Cannon AFB there is at least one or two Singapore F-16 units.



Singapore has a squadron of A-4s Skyhawk based in Cazaux, France. This detachment is part of a defence and military cooperation accord between the governments of Singapore and France... ;)

[YankeeDeVallecas]

Good deal..I love A-4s. See, we all learn something today. :hug:

[fantassin]

There are 10 TA-4SUs and 8 A-4SUs in Cazaux belonging to the RSAF Advanced Jet Training Unit 150th Sqdn; they've been there since 1998.

The RSAF pilots also do EW training on French Air Force Mirage 2000s in France.

The A4s will maybe be joined in the future by F5s and F16s.

[cut]

Ummm....there are EU troops in the US. Ever heard of the German Luftwaffe in New Mexico? Holloman AFB is crawling with them.

http://www.flgausbzlw.net/

How about some Asian units...are there Asian units stationed in Europe?

At Cannon AFB there is at least one or two Singapore F-16 units.

These are just a couple of examples.



I must admit I didn't know that, see I'm not scared to say I don't know everything.

As for what I was saying before that, Europe was under the US's wing for the duration of the cold war, always joining the US in it's policies, but...





The US had a hissy fit over France and Germany, if that is not intervening what is?

That's intervening? :slap: No, what the US did was get pissed off at two allies that didn't participate in something the US felt they should. What did the US do? Lots of rehtoric and the French and Germans don't get first dibs to Iraqi contracts. Are you going to argue that they should get first dibs? Again I say :slap:


....things have changed so the European countries should be able to go their own way.

I never claimed that france or germany should get contracts but as I said before they didn't have anything to gain from this war why should they contribute to benefit the US.

Yes you are right, the US felt like france and germany should go to war with them in Iraq and insisted they should, but France and GErmany had reservation, and in the end they did the right thing for them, and did what their voters wanted not what the US wanted, and this was the right thing to do because they are accountable to their voters not the US. Smaller countries like Belgium would not have been able to do this, and France and Germany couldn't before.