European policy and muslim communities

[sierraone]

How has it become that we in Europe have to shape our foreign policy dependant on how large the muslim community that lives here? They came here mostly to escape persecution in their own deeply undemocratic countries, for a better life with freedom and prosperity. But they are muslims first, french or british or greek second. Now they are going to shape our policy? now we are afraid of them? now we are blinded to the fact that terrorism is directly linked to their religion. According to the Guardian today more than 80% of 'british' muslims dissaproved strongly of Britain's war in Iraq (as opposed to the overall 33%) and 13% believed that further terrorist attacks would be justified! Why? Is it a coincidence? No they are muslim first. If a muslim country goes to war with a non-muslim country they automatically support the muslim country even if the other party is the country they live in or even born in. Wake up and smell the coffee!!

I have nothing against their religion by the way. Religions are about beliefs and therefore a personal issue. Islam is more than that. It is the fact that it is not just a religion but a political system and ideology. Christianity to a large extent has managed to separate church from state. It is time Islamic countries went through their Rennaisance.

[IsdatU]

Look at dermagraphics. Europe is an aging population as they are not reproducing. At the same time, tens of millions of muslim immigrants are settling in Europe. These muslim settlers have a high birth rate.

I think the muslims will someday own much of Western Europe.

[fantassin]

According to the Guardian today more than 80% of 'british' muslims dissaproved strongly of Britain's war in Iraq

That's the same figure as the number of people who were against the war in France, Germany or Spain, all religions together.

[sierraone]

I think slowly there a creeping 'Islamophobia' with these terrorist attacks. Muslims will find it a lot harder to travel to Europe and then requesting asylum or getting into sham marriages. The War on Terror came too early for them to reproduce enough to shape policy. In Britain muslims are 1.3 million out of 60 million population. In France they are 3 million I believe out of 70 or so million of the rest. France already banned the wearing of the muslim headscarf for women as a symbol of suppression of females in Islam. I don't know where all this will go but I perceive big problems with these communities. There has been a resurgence of Christianity as well in Western Europe now as a backlash to the growing Islamic belief.

[ShadowNeo]

Look at dermagraphics. Europe is an aging population as they are not reproducing. At the same time, tens of millions of muslim immigrants are settling in Europe. These muslim settlers have a high birth rate.

Firstly, there is a great need in some countries for immigration into them. For example in Scotland, the population is always in decline, due to many individuals heading elsewhere, either in the UK or abroad, for work etc. A migrant workforce is needed in the country in order to cope with this loss of population, and will be needed even moreso in the future.

[sierraone]

According to the Guardian today more than 80% of 'british' muslims dissaproved strongly of Britain's war in Iraq

That's the same figure as the number of people who were against the war in France, Germany or Spain, all religions together.

Oh yeah for sure but this is set against the proportion of the British that approved which was 66% overall including muslims.

[IsdatU]

Look at dermagraphics. Europe is an aging population as they are not reproducing. At the same time, tens of millions of muslim immigrants are settling in Europe. These muslim settlers have a high birth rate.

Firstly, there is a great need in some countries for immigration into them. For example in Scotland, the population is always in decline, due to many individuals heading elsewhere, either in the UK or abroad, for work etc. A migrant workforce is needed in the country in order to cope with this loss of population, and will be needed even moreso in the future.

They could have encouraged larger families rather than to import muslims.

Also, the state of technology being what it is, alot of the industrial jobs should have become automated.

[ShadowNeo]

They could have encouraged larger families rather than to import muslims.

Also, the state of technology being what it is, alot of the industrial jobs should have become automated.

I wasn't referring specifically to muslims, but they do make up a large amount of those who choose to migrate here. Also, lets get realistic, this is the modern world we're talking about here, there is less need for larger families, i.e:

- Cost of having children is high, given modern scotland, every child has the potential to go on to University education eventually, which the majority do, and this could put a strain cost-wise on large families.

- Men and Women (most importantly) are much more career orientated, having children later in life and having fewer. A woman in modern times has a career not dissimilar from a man, and as such the emphasis on children is diminished.

There are few ways you can encourage larger families realistically. Also, why do you think these muslim workers will move into industrial jobs? The majority of immigrants are employed into the healthcare services or other service based jobs (as im sure your aware, the UK's strongest industry is its services industry).

[citizen-k]

How has it become that we in Europe have to shape our foreign policy dependant on how large the muslim community that lives here? They came here mostly to escape persecution in their own deeply undemocratic countries, for a better life with freedom and prosperity. But they are muslims first, french or british or greek second. Now they are going to shape our policy? now we are afraid of them? now we are blinded to the fact that terrorism is directly linked to their religion. According to the Guardian today more than 80% of 'british' muslims dissaproved strongly of Britain's war in Iraq (as opposed to the overall 33%) and 13% believed that further terrorist attacks would be justified! Why? Is it a coincidence? No they are muslim first. If a muslim country goes to war with a non-muslim country they automatically support the muslim country even if the other party is the country they live in or even born in. Wake up and smell the coffee!!

I have nothing against their religion by the way. Religions are about beliefs and therefore a personal issue. Islam is more than that. It is the fact that it is not just a religion but a political system and ideology. Christianity to a large extent has managed to separate church from state. It is time Islamic countries went through their Rennaisance.

Renaissance came after 500 years of the middle ages - let them get out of the prehistoric age first...

[Argyll]

Another Eurobashing Anti Muslim topic..................before this gets out of hand I'm locking it!


I will unlock it if there are guarantees that this will not turn into Islamaphobia or Euro bashing...........which these days seems impossible to have one without the other

[Argyll]

Reopened!!


IsdatU........................you're in breach of forum rules by having Multiple accounts ;)

[Truthsayer]

Look at dermagraphics. Europe is an aging population as they are not reproducing. At the same time, tens of millions of muslim immigrants are settling in Europe. These muslim settlers have a high birth rate.

I think the muslims will someday own much of Western Europe.

Wow, this is almost an exact qoute of one of Sixguns posts...and he always liked to post it several times in one thread. (The bigger the lies, the more it needs repeating.)

Sixgun, is that you?

Edit: Do'h, just read the last post, someone beat me to it. Argyll is too fast. ;)

[SeanAshi]

why don't you give us all the power to lock and unlock threads eh? If someone gets banned its not that hard to delete certain things from the computers registry and get back on.

[cut]

why don't you give us all the power to lock and unlock threads eh?

you have to earn it

[sierraone]

Another Eurobashing Anti Muslim topic..................before this gets out of hand I'm locking it!


I will unlock it if there are guarantees that this will not turn into Islamaphobia or Euro bashing...........which these days seems impossible to have one without the other

I think there is a misconception about what Islamophobia is. Yeah to say 'soon they will own Europe' and all that doesn't make constructive critisism. I am talking facts. But legitimate critisism should be allowed especially since americano-phobia and israelophobia seem to go unchecked. Islam is a political system I repeat and as such we can comment freely on it. Have we ever had a problem with communisto-phobia?

[cut]

yes

[sierraone]

yes

haha yeah of course we had to be sensitive at communists' way of life. Did they demand to abstain from work when it was the anniversary of the October Revolution? I don't think so...

[cut]

yes

haha yeah of course we had to be sensitive at communists' way of life. Did they demand to abstain from work when it was the anniversary of the October Revolution? I don't think so...

It wasn't so much against communists but a certain ****head likes to called anything left of neo-con communists.

[sierraone]

yes

haha yeah of course we had to be sensitive at communists' way of life. Did they demand to abstain from work when it was the anniversary of the October Revolution? I don't think so...

It wasn't so much against communists but a certain ****head likes to called anything left of neo-con communists.

Ok apologies I know what you mean. I don't come from Montana (no offence to people from Montana..just in case)

I guess for the first time in history we have such a politically sensitive situation where we have a religion primarily which is a political system secondary (or sometimes vice-versa). At the same time in Western countries this is deemed as an ethnic minority with all privileges/special needs that come with it. Communism was never a religion (or close anyway) or ethnic minority. It was a political minority with it's own agenda and could only influence policy through a democratic process. Economically it collapsed and been proven over and over again that it doesn't work. The socialist parties of Europe now are more capitalist than ever before and really don't differ much in policy from the conservative ones.

I will say it again and you can sue me, lock me, ban me but Islam is a problem. We can't critisize it is a a political system because it is also an ethnic minority. We can't critisize it as a religion because again it is an ethnic minority and we don't critisize religions anyway as religion is a set of beliefs in deity and divinity which is a personal thing. We dismiss 'european' Talibans and suicide bombers that are doing it in the name of Allah as twisting the teachings of the Koran and good muslims don't do things like that. However european muslims feel threatened by anti-terrror laws. Why? do they see it as an excuse to opress their religion by european governments? As if they don't know that western goverments don't care less what religion you are anymore.

I believe the only answer is democratisation of the middle east. Give the vote to women, hold transparent elections every 4-5 years and have a multitude of parties. We can only negotiate with democratic governmets, people willing to talk. Then there will be peace and terrorism will have no excuse and no place to hide. They will have to learn to live with Jews, Christians and go to their mosque, pray and then go about their business of making money, providing welfare for everyone.

For that to happen Islam needs a major overhaul. As it stands now it is showing a face of religious intolerance, autocracy, racism, sexism and deeply undemocratic values. In practice it shows a face of brutality with complete abuse of basic human rights and excusing the most horrific crimes in recent history.

[cut]

The socialist parties of Europe now are more capitalist than ever before and really don't differ much in policy from the conservative ones.

absolutely right


I will say it again and you can sue me, lock me, ban me but Islam is a problem. We can't critisize it is a a political system because it is also an ethnic minority. We can't critisize it as a religion because again it is an ethnic minority and we don't critisize religions anyway as religion is a set of beliefs in deity and divinity which is a personal thing. We dismiss 'european' Talibans and suicide bombers that are doing it in the name of Allah as twisting the teachings of the Koran and good muslims don't do things like that. However european muslims feel threatened by anti-terrror laws. Why? do they see it as an excuse to opress their religion by european governments? As if they don't know that western goverments don't care less what religion you are anymore.


Islam is not the problem it's the tool being used by the terrorists, just as George W Bush is using christianity in america, but that is wasted on us in europe we don't associate him with the religious authority to make such claims.



I believe the only answer is democratisation of the middle east. Give the vote to women, hold transparent elections every 4-5 years and have a multitude of parties. We can only negotiate with democratic governmets, people willing to talk. Then there will be peace and terrorism will have no excuse and no place to hide. They will have to learn to live with Jews, Christians and go to their mosque, pray and then go about their business of making money, providing welfare for everyone.

I disagree, in the short-term at least, what the arab countries need is self-respect, they have already tried out democratic government, islamic governments and dictatorships and for them none of them have worked.



For that to happen Islam needs a major overhaul. As it stands now it is showing a face of religious intolerance, autocracy, racism, sexism and deeply undemocratic values. In practice it shows a face of brutality with complete abuse of basic human rights and excusing the most horrific crimes in recent history.


so you say you want to make them democratic and yet you want to force changes on them and their religion. Surely that can't be done.

[sierraone]

I will say it again and you can sue me, lock me, ban me but Islam is a problem. We can't critisize it is a a political system because it is also an ethnic minority. We can't critisize it as a religion because again it is an ethnic minority and we don't critisize religions anyway as religion is a set of beliefs in deity and divinity which is a personal thing. We dismiss 'european' Talibans and suicide bombers that are doing it in the name of Allah as twisting the teachings of the Koran and good muslims don't do things like that. However european muslims feel threatened by anti-terrror laws. Why? do they see it as an excuse to opress their religion by european governments? As if they don't know that western goverments don't care less what religion you are anymore.


Islam is not the problem it's the tool being used by the terrorists, just as George W Bush is using christianity in america, but that is wasted on us in europe we don't associate him with the religious authority to make such claims.



I believe the only answer is democratisation of the middle east. Give the vote to women, hold transparent elections every 4-5 years and have a multitude of parties. We can only negotiate with democratic governmets, people willing to talk. Then there will be peace and terrorism will have no excuse and no place to hide. They will have to learn to live with Jews, Christians and go to their mosque, pray and then go about their business of making money, providing welfare for everyone.

I disagree, in the short-term at least, what the arab countries need is self-respect, they have already tried out democratic government, islamic governments and dictatorships and for them none of them have worked. [/quote]

Need self-respect is very vague. Explain please. When did they try democracy and it didn't work? You mean the assasination of Saddat in Egypt?



For that to happen Islam needs a major overhaul. As it stands now it is showing a face of religious intolerance, autocracy, racism, sexism and deeply undemocratic values. In practice it shows a face of brutality with complete abuse of basic human rights and excusing the most horrific crimes in recent history.


so you say you want to make them democratic and yet you want to force changes on them and their religion. Surely that can't be done.[/quote]

Yeah it can be done. In Iraq it had to be done with the force of arms. At least that is the idea. I don't know if it is going to work. It needs time but at least there is a constitution. Saudi Arabia is deeply undemocratic and brutal but it is a rich nation. Difficult to exert that kind of pressure. But then again it keeps out of the middle east quagmire to an extent as it is US/euro money that keeps the royal family maintaining their lifestyle. But if Syria and Iran had democracies now and came to the table with Israel and spoke about co-existence, took an active stance in stamping out terrorism we might have some progress.

[cut]

they havn't changed the religion in iraq and as for democracy that has to grow you can plant it but you have to wait for it to work, and most of the time it doesn't.

[pinkeye]

they havn't changed the religion in iraq and as for democracy that has to grow you can plant it but you have to wait for it to work, and most of the time it doesn't.

you're right, we have such a western-centric view of the world and that is part of the problem. we assume that because liberal democracy works in the west it will automatically flourish in places like afghanistan and iraq where the political and social traditions are totally different. we cannot apply a cookie-cutter approach to every scenario. we fail to understand the societies we are dealing with, so in addition to a "clash of civilisation" there is a clash of discourse. accordingly, chances for success are slim...

[sierraone]

They can't change the religion but they can bring democracy. The religion can chage. Turkey has the closest thing to democracy for a muslim country...

[Argyll]

They can't change the religion but they can bring democracy. The religion can chage. Turkey has the closest thing to democracy for a muslim country...


That's correct,they're so democratic they're going to give the Kurds their Country called Kurdistan,what's more they are so delighted that the Iraqi Kurds will soon join them in their celebrations!

It all sounds so simple,but looking at Afghanisatn and Iraq,their Democracy is coming at gunpoint,it took Invasions to "try" and give Democracy a chance in these countries,and it's not working as well as everyone hoped,the conditions within these countries is far from being acceptable for the population to even contemplate a Western Style democracy.

The odds are stacked against this in Iraq because of the different factions,who all hate each others guts,It has to be the will of the people that changes,and I honestly think this will not be easy.

In Scotland there is more Sectarianism between Catholic and Protestant,than Islamaphobia,here the Muslims do not go about spouting Bile and hatred,people are more concerned about their neighbours being from the right side of the fence than being Muslim...........it's really weird.

It is also pretty hard if not impossible for someones religion to change,in that I mean abandoning their beliefs after thousands of years.
I always find it amazing that we expect other's to change yet we stand firm on our own beliefs,hardly democratic is it?

[M_S]

Doesn't history tell us that the christian countries (Europe) were the bad guys before?

The germans were bad until 1945.

[AirZone]

All i can say...


Gooooooooooodddddddd Morning Europe ! :roll:

payback is a bitch isnt it ? rofl rofl rofl rofl rofl rofl

[Argyll]

I'm not sure how to interpret this one Airzone?

[AirZone]

Well, everyone in israel knew it will happen and its funny to see people asking just now these questions and doing acts against it (you can see harsh rules against immgrates in europe now)

but problem is some i guess are too late... and i for myself pretty amused to see the french (nothing personal...just against the goverment) are in deep **** (or will be)


the only sad thing is people wake up only when a big disaster happens... :(

[Argyll]

I actually don't think the surprise is that great after all Spain has seen terrorist attacks since the 70's along with the UK,the surprise is that it was an AQ element and not ETA that carried it out,and the ramifications of it being AQ and not ETA are reverberating amongst the people who did not support the war in Iraq,of which was 80% of the Spanish population.


If people think that bombs will not work,take a look at Northern Ireland,the IRA succeded to bring the Government to the negotiating table,and thus the Good friday agreement was signed,our wonderful "labour" Government capitulated,and gave the IRA what they wanted....and has one single weapons cache been handed in ,in return for thos conditions...........nope,Tony Blair pissed on the graves of all these soldiers who died at the hands of terrorists.
I'm very surprised that nothing has kicked off in NI,as the PIRA used to train in the ME with the same Islamic fundamentalists that are causing chaos across the globe!

[cut]

Airzone, in what respect are the french government in deep ****?

[sierraone]

Right when I say that the religion can change, that is to move away from the running of state, give equal rights to all, freedom of speech, leaders that represent people not God etc. Yeah I know that is well and true for our way of thinking blah blah, I have heard it all. Frankly the west in general wouldn't give a hoot about islam and the rest otherwise. But they made it our business from Sep 11 onwards and with the growing islamic communities within the west that kick back and make a fuss. Do you remember ever hearing about Islam all the time before 9/11?
Even the Arab-Israeli conflict was an east-west confrontation and palestinian terrorism had more of a marxist flavour than a religious one. As a matter of fact Yasser Arafat now is considered more of a moderate because he is still a marxist rather than a koran basher. Even the leader of a palestinian group -can't remember which- was George Habbas a Christian. I can't see him becoming a suicide bomber. It is now that we hear all about the controversy with Islam and the clash between western liberalism and the almost medieval state of affairs in islamic thinking. Sham trials, brutal public executions etc.

Communism is long gone. The question is, why is there islamic terrorism to begin with? what are their demands? the IRA had demands, ETA had demands and so did the Red Brigade and Baader-Meinhoff. Why the mass killings? This is not even terrorism. This is mass murder. The maxim of terrorism was 'kill one, frighten a hundred'. Now it is just 'kill a hundred'. Where will it end?

We can't negotiate now. And with whom do we negotiate? Who will be taken to Hague for crimes against humanity? Even if OBL and the rest are winkled out, tried and hanged or whatever, will it stop?

That is why we need democracy in these countries.

[cut]

let's crush the vatican

absolute monarchy, the leader represents God, no parliament, highest crime rate per capita in the world and worst of all was against the War in Iraq, clearly an as yet unamed addition to the axis of evil.

[Argyll]

Communism is long gone. The question is, why is there islamic terrorism to begin with? what are their demands? the IRA had demands, ETA had demands and so did the Red Brigade and Baader-Meinhoff. Why the mass killings? This is not even terrorism. This is mass murder. The maxim of terrorism was 'kill one, frighten a hundred'. Now it is just 'kill a hundred'. Where will it end?

That is why we need democracy in these countries.

Perhaps they just want a world of their own? ;)

[AirZone]

Airzone, in what respect are the french government in deep ****?

Hmm...lets say they will learn what Israel learned the past 100years ? :lol:

[AirZone]

I actually don't think the surprise is that great after all Spain has seen terrorist attacks since the 70's along with the UK,the surprise is that it was an AQ element and not ETA that carried it out,and the ramifications of it being AQ and not ETA are reverberating amongst the people who did not support the war in Iraq,of which was 80% of the Spanish population.


If people think that bombs will not work,take a look at Northern Ireland,the IRA succeded to bring the Government to the negotiating table,and thus the Good friday agreement was signed,our wonderful "labour" Government capitulated,and gave the IRA what they wanted....and has one single weapons cache been handed in ,in return for thos conditions...........nope,Tony Blair pissed on the graves of all these soldiers who died at the hands of terrorists.
I'm very surprised that nothing has kicked off in NI,as the PIRA used to train in the ME with the same Islamic fundamentalists that are causing chaos across the globe!

I wonder why people agree to that act... but i guess people will shut thier mouth as long as they get quiet.. like Blair gave them.

[cut]

Airzone, in what respect are the french government in deep ****?

Hmm...lets say they will learn what Israel learned the past 100years ? :lol:

What about what we have learnt over the past 60 years, that counts for ****? And israel has only existed for 60 years :P

[AirZone]

Airzone, in what respect are the french government in deep ****?

Hmm...lets say they will learn what Israel learned the past 100years ? :lol:

What about what we have learnt over the past 60 years, that counts for ****? And israel has only existed for 60 years :P

doesnt mean we didnt fought against arbs before it nay ? ;) (and you heheheh)

anyway... the point is we know that you dont want islamic fanatics all around you...

[cut]

Airzone, in what respect are the french government in deep ****?

Hmm...lets say they will learn what Israel learned the past 100years ? :lol:

What about what we have learnt over the past 60 years, that counts for ****? And israel has only existed for 60 years :P

doesnt mean we didnt fought against arbs before it nay ? ;) (and you heheheh)

anyway... the point is we know that you dont want islamic fanatics all around you...

so that they don't claim birthright to Europe?

[Kellhound]

Victim 201 died yesterday, 6 still critical, at least a dozen seriously injured.

Antimuslim attacks (minor things by now) have begun in several places around Spain. Not that some people need any reason to, but this pushed some punks/skinheads/gangs/whatever over the edge.

One secondary effects of the attacks has been putting violent groups around Spain against anything hinting islamism, so the end result (post 9/11 in lesser scale) will be a lot of aggraviated muslims not viewing so bad terrorists, because they fight against those who go against them. It's the same old routine, and has been surfacing in France for some time.
And sadly, people is forgetting about ETA and even forgiving some things(!!!) after founder of the group of fathers of prisoners by terrorism was killed by a cop (and maybe his son).
One person may be intelligent, but people is fool.

Head of AQ in a spanish prison denies it was them, but some Abu Dujan Al Afgani, claiming to be an AQ military leader for Europe, claimed authory.

By the way, main suspect this week is the moroccan group who bombed a restaurant in Casablanca, second place going to a roaming multinational cell of AlQaeda. ETA still preferred suspect for many (no, not talking about PP).

http://www.abc.es/abc/laterales/otro_contenido/iconos_para_destacados_home_abajo/LazoNegro1.gif