10 year old suicide bomber

[citizen-k]

Nablus, West Bank - A 10-year-old Palestinian boy who was arrested on Monday in the West Bank carrying explosives, was being used by Palestinian militants as a suicide bomber, Israeli security sources said.


http://www.iol.co.za/index.php?click_id=123&art_id=vn20040316014001154C265356&set_id=1

[Mr. Nielsen]

From Today's Pic's - March 16




http://cache.*****images.com/comp/3087299.jpg?x=x&dasite=MS_GINS&ef=2&ev=1&dareq=DF5280521401DF34355DA3FDD876B708

And then people ask why children got killed.
FFS they wanted to turn this boy to "shahid"!!! :cantbeli: :cantbeli:

Jpost tells, the boy turned himself in and was freed after questioning.
He was promised money for carrying the bomb through the check point, and give it to a waiting woman. When the terrorist saw that he turnd himself in, they tried to call the cellphone attached to the bom, but it failt to detonate. Hopefully this boy will be safe now he's back in his place. Those f*cking terrorists don't care to use there one children to do these thinks.

If that story was true, he wouldn't have been released.

Haaretz says that the boy earns money transporting bags through the check-point on his cart. People, usually old people and women, would pile there bags on his cart. Apparently this time one contained the explosive, without his knowledge. There is no mention of any cell phone either.

http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/405061.html

[S'13]

Nablus, West Bank - A 10-year-old Palestinian boy who was arrested on Monday in the West Bank carrying explosives, was being used by Palestinian militants as a suicide bomber, Israeli security sources said.


http://www.iol.co.za/index.php?click_id=123&art_id=vn20040316014001154C265356&set_id=1

Sadly it's not much of a surprise... :|

[ShotOver]

AP - Troops at a West Bank checkpoint arrested a young boy trying to smuggle a bomb out of the West Bank city of Nablus, the army said.

The boy said he was 10, but after several hours of questioning him, the army issued a statement saying his real age was 12.

The commander of the army unit that caught the boy said soldiers' suspicions were aroused by the weight of a school bag he was carrying. When they examined the contents they found a bomb, laced with nuts and bolts to increase its killing power.

"It was a pretty serious bomb, between seven and 10kg," the officer, identified as Lieutenant-Colonel Guy, told Israeli Army Radio.

"It was ready for detonation, apparently with a mobile phone."





Israeli security officials said the army had received intelligence warnings of an attempt to mount an attack from Nablus, which has been the staging point for many past infiltrations into Israel.

Palestinians said the boy, from the poverty-ridden Balata refugee camp on the southern edge of the city, worked as a porter at the nearby Huwwara checkpoint.

His job was helping to carry the belongings of Palestinians forbidden to drive through.

The security officials, speaking on condition of anonymity, said the boy was hired to carry baggage by militants loosely linked to Yasser Arafat's Fatah movement and did not know the contents of the backpack they gave him.

The officials said the militants planned to explode the device as the boy passed through the checkpoint, but failed due to a technical fault. The explosion would have killed the boy and nearby soldiers.

Guy said it was common for terrorist groups to use innocent-looking children or women as couriers for arms and explosives.

"In the past we caught a 39-year-old mother of seven... with an explosive belt under her clothes," he said, adding that the woman was on her way into Israel from the West Bank when she was caught.

The security sources said the boy was released after questioning.

Troops and police have in the past caught teenagers smuggling weapons or bombs, and on one occasion they found explosives hidden under a child lying on a stretcher in an ambulance.

Last month, also in the Nablus area, troops caught three boys, aged 12, 13 and 15, accused of trying to slip into Israel with makeshift guns to carry out a shooting attack.

The incident sparked horror among their families and concern from Palestinian officials that militant groups had gone too far in their choice of young recruits.



©AAP 2004

http://news.ninemsn.com.au/World/story_55509.asp

[citizen-k]

Yeah, right - it was all made up by the police :cantbeli:

I guess you also believe the WTD is still in its place and that 3/11 is nothing but a train accident... :cantbeli: X 2

[Elmo]

Using children...that's too much.

Those crimal terrorists have definately gone too far in their war against oppressive state organized violence.

[Javehn]

Using children...that's too much.

Those crimal terrorists have definately gone too far in their war against oppressive state organized violence.

Elmo ?? I thought you never start this type of posting . How the hell did you get here ?
What unbiased post you got . Bravo , bravo . Yes , you do know how to keep yourself look unconsistent . So you have right to **** me on Spain thread , brain**** me how i am biased , and looky looky what do we got here .

You did noticed i remove my signature . I still waiting for my appologise , by the way .

[Elmo]

Er...

My post was to highlight the two sides of the conflict.

I apologize to you Javehn for disagreeing on most issues with you.
Could we keep our mutual bashing in PM?

[Javehn]

No , no , no Elmo . You dissed me on Public channel . Allow me to refresh the memory of yours :

The guy who kept nagging about thread hijacking is here, pushing his own agenda
that was said on public channel . I have enough talking to you on private . If you trying to show everyone the peace way is good way , furst , make it sound like it's comming from the right person .There is way more inellegent people , that can talk about this , and i will not get offended . But you lost your waggon . So , asta la vista , pandeho . ;)

[Pad75]

The repport that I have heard this morning on the radio told that the child was not a suicide bomber but where use to cross Police Barage and to transport a bomb. Wich is different from the title :" 10 years suicide bomber".

[citizen-k]

The repport that I have heard this morning on the radio told that the child was not a suicide bomber but where use to cross Police Barage and to transport a bomb. Wich is different from the title :" 10 years suicide bomber".

Those who sent him knew he will die...

A 10 year old kid is being used as a live bomb and what you care about is the ****en title? :cantbeli:

[M_S]

10 year old suicide bomber = BS

[citizen-k]

10 year old suicide bomber = BS

How would you call a 10 year old carrying a bomb?

(I don't know, maybe he has super powers so the bomb won't kill him... you americans read to much comics....)

[Elmo]

Why couldn't there be a kid with a bomb? It sounds outrageous and therefore it could be propaganda, though. But if women do it why wouldn't kids be made to do it? They might even do it willingly, if told how great it is.

[M_S]

http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/405061.html


The kid worked by carrying stuff over the border for palestinian people, mostly old people.

Seem like the terroists used him to carry a bomb.

I would rather believe that the kid isnt a terrorist and if he knew about the bomb then he was brainwashed

[S'13]

Why couldn't there be a kid with a bomb? It sounds outrageous and therefore it could be propaganda, though


rofl rofl rofl

We are talking about people who strap bombs to their bodies (or the people who send them) and blow up buses and restaurants full of civilians, isn't that outrageous enough?! What's more outrageous is that people call these terrorists "freedom fighters :cantbeli:

So if this kind of thing is shocking and comes to you as a surprise, your either very naive or know very littile about how the Palestinian terrorists work.

[S'13]

http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/405061.html


The kid worked by carrying stuff over the border for palestinian people, mostly old people.

Seem like the terroists used him to carry a bomb.

I would rather believe that the kid isnt a terrorist and if he knew about the bomb then he was brainwashed

The terrorists were planning to detonate the charge if it was found by the soldiers, the terrorists had a scout at the check point who had a cellular telephone and his task was to set off the charge. It's belived that because of a technical fault the charge didn't go off...

[Elmo]

So if this kind of thing is shocking and comes to you as a surprise, your either very naive or know very littile about how the Palestinian terrorists work.

Give me a break! Of course there can be a child carrying a bomb, that is what I said. The French learned a bitter lesson in Algeria when women, the not expected, acted as terrorists.

If you find it impossible that in war lies are told to influence opinions, you must be really naive or know very little about conflicts. Who knows what really happened. I believe there was this child with a bomb, but who cares about my opinion, the truth is somewhere out of our reach.

edit: typo

[S'13]

Give me a break! Of course there can be a child carrying a bomb, that is what I said. The French learned a bitter lesson in Algeria when women, the not expected, acted as terrorists.

I am glad that you know it's possible... :roll:


If you find it impossible that in war lies are told to influence opinions, you must be really naive or know very little about conflicts.

Where did I write that it's impossible that in war lies are told to influence opinions? The Palestinians have been doing this very well in the last four years.
The fact is that terrorists do not value human life and this true case in which Palestinian terrorists were using the boy in order to smuggle explosives or use him as a live bomb just supports this fcat.

[Javehn]

I think what's ELmo is trying to say , that we live in big conspirasy , and the Army / Government is lying to us ... ;) We are biased , bellieve in government lies , and so on and so on .

Elmo, i talled you allready , if you want to use the extazy , you should check where you buy it . Or you can have very nasty trips . Too bad , i think Elmo had too much of those ... ;)

One second ... I remember serving in Army . I remember stuff that happened ussually got to the news . Thow in foreign press they got very ugly reality twist . Perhaps that was i , who been under Extazy trip then ?

Elmo elmo elmo ... rofl

[Mr Gently Benevolent]

A sad and reoccurring theme in terrorism in the Middle East and especially Africa, was a problem way back in Palestine during the British administration, Peter Malkin (Zvi Milchman) one of the guys that captured Eichmann was a child terrorist inducted at the age of 12. :(

[obd]

Well I heard also that the kid did not know he was going to be killed, thus it is wrong to call him a "suicide bomber". Either way, nobody can know for sure whether he was being used to transport a bomb for detonation later or if the terrorist on the other end was goint to blow it up when the kid neared Israeli troops. What I do find as odd is that it did not blow up as the troops took it out which means that there was nobody watching with a cell phone to blow it up, leading me to believe that the kid was just transpoting it for later use........

To call the kid a "suicide bomber" and claim the Palestinians were using him as a martyr is just sensationalism and when you say things like this often it will destroy your credibility in the long run and when you are tellign the truth people will not believe you. I recomend being more careful about your posts and not sensationalizing things......

Fact of the matter is this: The Palestinains are trying to resist what they see as Israeli occupation. Hell, Gaza is basically one huge concentration camp. They do not have F-16's, AH-64's, Merkava main battle tanks, artillery etc.... so they must resist with what they have. In American history there are many examples of children being used to sneak weapons and messages past enemy troops. For example, many children fought during the desperate resistance to British colonial rule during the American Revolution.....

In Russia too, many children served as spies and such during World War Two and the desperate battle against German occupation....

My point is that all nations have used whatever tactics had to be used to succeed during desperate times, including putting children at risk....

I do nto doubt that this 12 year old kid knew enough to agree to do this. When your parents suffer and are forced to live under occupation and must go through hours of checkpoints than you come to understand at an early age and you come to hate at an early age......

Now, in case you are wondering I actually support Isreal and I do not support the Palestinians. Strange right?? Well here is my opinion on the matter: Israel has a right to exist. Israel has a right to defend itself. Israel's current tactics against the Palestinians, althought brutal, are in place because of history of terror attacks and because other Arab nations use the Palestinians as cannon fodder against Israel.

On the other hand, Israels justifiable tactics against the Palestinians are also creating much despair and anger and rage. Children do not play Gi Joe and Barbie. They play HAMAS suicide bomber. Posters of suiced bombers are up all over and children are taught that these terrorists are hero's.

I guess what I am trying to say is that I understand and support Israel's tactics but I also understand Palestinian rage. I can understand how a teenager who has no opportunity and lives in a slum with no chance of getting out and no percieved chance of success who see's Israeli tanks all day and who see's kids killed in cross fire all day would want to kill Israelis. I can also understand how Israeli's who see children blown up every day on busses and in malls and at wedding and everywhere else would want to barricade Palestinians outside for protection..

I guess it is a problem where both sides have made mistakes and both sides have compelling arguments and both sides have killed inoccents. You cannot argue that Isreal's bombing of Shiek Rassin or whoever he was that killed several children was accident. They KNEW kids were around but made the choice that it was tolerable anyway......Israel has great intelligence and kids were playing all over that area yet they dropped the bomb anyway...........Not to mention all the helocopter gunship strikes that ALWAYS killa few kids. Funny how they are willing to strike at a car moving through a crowded street full of kids and then "regret" the childrens death. Im sorry, it doest work that way.......

There is no doubt that Palestinians strike innocents on purpose and this is wring but there is also no doubt that Israel has conducted strikes against terrorists knowing innocents would die. Now, maybe that is one step below what the Palestinians are doing and maybe one could argue that they are saving Israeli innocents by doing this and they come first but it is still wrong in my book. OF course, Im not the one facing suicide bomber every day (although I had a family member killed by the 9-11 suiced bombers so I know the pain) so maby I shouldnt be talking....

I welcome opinions on the matter and Im not trying to flame Israelis. Just trying to make it more fair around here and show that Palestinians are not the only ones making mistakes and doing the wrong thing.......

[citizen-k]

Oh, so you think we should give them weapons to make it a fair fight? rofl

Jews fought for their country 60 years ago - I don't recall buses exploding in London - and thousands of Palestinians are not being murdered in gas chambers every day now, please keep some proportions.

This kid was used by the Palestinians in their fight for their freedom (Jordan is the Palestinian free land, so I don't know which freedom they are actually fighting for) , they were trying to make him a new kind of "suicide bomber" - after they used a disabled woman, now they are using kids. (no wonder civil life is hell in gaza - the civilians are been used as part of their war, with out any limits of common humanity)

[S'13]

Either way, nobody can know for sure whether he was being used to transport a bomb for detonation later or if the terrorist on the other end was goint to blow it up when the kid neared Israeli troops.

Well maybe it's possible to know if the charge could be detonated via cell phone by examinating how it was assembled, don't you think this is a logical explanation to as how the IDF knew this?



What I do find as odd is that it did not blow up as the troops took it out which means that there was nobody watching with a cell phone to blow it up, leading me to believe that the kid was just transpoting it for later use........

Or, as was mentioned earlier, there was a technical malfunction.



They do not have F-16's, AH-64's, Merkava main battle tanks, artillery etc.... so they must resist with what they have.

Agree, however I wouldn't call the murder of innocent civilians 'resistance'.



In American history there are many examples of children being used to sneak weapons and messages past enemy troops. For example, many children fought during the desperate resistance to British colonial rule during the American Revolution.....

In Russia too, many children served as spies and such during World War Two and the desperate battle against German occupation....


Did they do so in order to murder innocent civilians?



do nto doubt that this 12 year old kid knew enough to agree to do this.

According to him he knew nothing about the explosive charge.

[obd]

Nobody knows if it was a malfunction or not. That is just a guess.

As I said, it was a cell phone activated bomb so why didnt they blow it up as the kid neared the troops??? Maybe, just maybe, because the they didnt want the kid to die. How they can say "oh well it must have malfunctioned then because the kid didnt die" is stupid. I wasnt questioning whether or not it was a cell phine activated bomb S-13...you missed my point.

Next, when I said he knew enough to do it I was saying that he knew enough hatred and suffering to do it. I think he may easily have known as he was already employed sneaking all manner of other goods across the borber for Palestinians.........

And by the way Citizen K, the very first terror group in the middle east was Jewish. Im sure you know the name of that one hehe. It killed more than its share of British innocents during that period and you cant deny that!!!!!

The vast majority of suicide bombers are not "used" people. They are actually enthusaistic volunteers as the videos they make before they die show.........To them, they are doing what they can to stop the Israels occupation. Many of them, as seen on there video's, have had member of thier family killed by Israeli bombs, tanks, snipers, grenades, and artillery.........

Next, I was never suggesting to give them F-16's you idiot. I merely stated the fact that the Palestinians are using the only strategy that they can in the face of an enemy armed with high tech weaponry and supported by the most powerful nation on earth, America. Thats all I was saying......but you again choose to take it the wrong way and try to suggest that I was propossing such a stupid thing when I was actually not. Very clever....

[obd]

Yes and I do not call the murder of innocent Palestinian children from Ah-64 missile strikes and F-16 bombs "collatteral damage" as you do.........

[Javehn]

Yes and I do not call the murder of innocent Palestinian children from Ah-64 missile strikes and F-16 bombs "collatteral damage" as you do.........

Obd ?? I thought you are ... never mind . It's called Palestinian media for one - they do have things with numbers . And second , there is pretty long article about this matter , done by IAF officer . It's pretty long , but i can translate it if it's needed .
I can consume it in one sentence : A ground operation, needed to do this same action , is gonna cost much more damage , as from soldiers casualties , and to colathoral damage from Palestinian side . Collathoral damage thats is a reality of every fight . It's not the Matrix , flying bulllets cannot be stoped with a hand .
The soldiers trying to shoot only what they see , and are shure they hit only that target (and our comrads , with the "pray and spray" method don't even try to hit like normal people ) . But bullets behave in different matter , and they tend to hit things no one intent to hit .
Firefights on the ground tend to carry on for along time , and get soooo complicated . One round from helicopter is actually having much less collathoral damage then a long firefight .
The problem is , the strikes that get the bigest media "work" , is the ones with casualties . Those who get the target, just "slip" sometimes , or mentioned for a glipse of a second .

Allrighty then ?

[Mr. Nielsen]

(Jordan is the Palestinian free land, so I don't know which freedom they are actually fighting for)

However much you wish it to be like that, it isn't so. The Palestinian's ancestral land is the one between the Mediterranean and the Jordan river.


they used a disabled woman

Disabled woman? I think I missed that one.

[Javehn]

Nielsen ? WTF ??????? THEERE IS NO PALESTINIANS LAND . PALESTINIANS NATION IS LONG AGO IN THE GENES OF JEWS, ARBS , KUFTIES , and hell knows what . Where the **** do you buy your history books ?
Or perhaps this days "Palestinians" are the sons of those days "Palestinians " ? That would be the bigest archeological revolation of 21 century .

What is the connection , what the hell is the connection between Flistimlans of 3000 years ago , and the Arabs that call themself Palestinians those days ? What is the connection ? Jews in Israel 60 years ago were called Palestinians . So , they are also the sons of those Plishtims . Stop smoking the **** , and quit reading "PalFacts" .
And how come you haven't answered not one of my PM's . What can you hide ?

[obd]

And where do you buy your history book Javeh?? Oh thats right you dont read them, God supplies you your history lessons............

Fact is, Palestinians have a claim on that land that is very very valid. They lived there and had lived there long before the Zionists began to come back. Remmember, before WW2 and the holocaust, the zionist movement was considered an extremist group by most Jews and very few accepted it. Only after the terror of the Nazi's did they flee to Israel and the United Nations give them that land at the expense of the Palestinians....

Now, if you want to claim biblical ties to the land than I would have to agree with you but in my book being absent from a land area for so many years invalidates any claim on it..................

Of course, Israel exists now and I do not think it should be destroyed. I only wish Jews had been given a homeland where I live (America) although many Americans of the period were mildly anti-semetic. Oh well, America is a quasi-Jewish homeland anyway as a huge number live perfectly peaceful and productive lives here anyway and would never even consider moving to Israel!

Oh well.

[Kilgor]

I merely stated the fact that the Palestinians are using the only strategy that they can in the face of an enemy armed with high tech weaponry and supported by the most powerful nation on earth, America. T Very clever....

That is a bull**** excuse. Did the French or Dutch blow themselves up when the most powerful nation on earth at the time occupied them ?
Stop making excuses for these murderous F*cks targetting innocent people. If they had any morals they would be after military targets, but its always civilians that get killed. Stop trying to justify their behaviour.

[Javehn]

Mate , i haven't been answered to you , i was talking to Nielsen . And Nielsen said , that the Palestinian people , is the one that leaved in the region 3000 years ago . That nation was long ago gone . BTW : My history lessons were russians ones , and hardly Israeli .

I allready explained , why Palestinians lost their clames in another post , but i can repeat them again :

1)Jews community lived in Israel for past 2000 years ago , and didn't live the country , to have a solid claim on land .
2) Jewish prays have legal side . Someone forfaits his land , if he was despaired from them , and left them for a sertain amount of time (i can start traising the stuff from UN script , but it starting to be late in my place) . Jews prais always remember Jeruslam and Israel . So diaspora jews haven't forgot the land , and holped to return to it . Actually during the history , attempts were made constantly .
3)Palestinian Arabs from other hand , haven't considered the land as their own . They even failed to name their land , something that would give them any sign of caring for this peace of land . But the fact is , that those arabs had nothing to do with that land (Israel was waste desert and swamps , until Jews get to it ) . For a long time , to live in Israel was considered as a "conscript" duty ,someone had to live in Israel , strategic point for Halifat rule .
4)Arabs soled their land . If i am not mistaken , selling have some legal claim . It's pretty wrong to reclaim something , after you solled it , with a contract .
5)They had no problem what so ever to get lost from Israel , when the 1947 war errupted . No serry Bob , they run like rabbits . Those who did stay , live in Israel very well .

The Palestinians of those days , were the settlers of west side of Jordain river . It was in Jordain control, and in 1967 it was occupied by Israel . Jordain didn't want them back . Infact , in 1969 there were a black month for Palestinians living in Jordain . They were slaughtered by King Hussein himself . But hey, who wants to remember that , when you have so small and so good land to blaim for . Blame all on us , we got it for last 2000 years , and we will stand for another 2000 years .

[obd]

Javenh, Im not talking about true collateral damage, as in accidental civilian casualties.

You missed my point yet again. And Im going to take anything written by an IAF officer about IAF operations with the oppropriate level of critical thought.......

I AM PRO ISRAEL hehe.......its just that I am not blindly pro Israel and there are many things ON ALL SIDES that I disagree with.....

Javench I despise what the Palestinians are doing in Isreal but I cant sit by and watch biased crap that portrays Israeli's as perfect..

What I am talking about is not bullets ricocheting off walls and killing kids in the middle of battles. What I am talking about is IAF Apache gunships launching missiles on terrorists moving through absolutely crowded streets with kids walkign by car at all times!!!! This is what makes me mad. It is not collateral damage anymore when an IAF pilot is orrdered to, or makes the decision himself/herself to, launch a missle into a crowded area knowing there will be innocents killed. Its the same thing as when HAMAS attacks a bus with Israeli troops riding in it and the civilians also die. Collateral damage?? I think not!

Oh and yes, I do know that the bus attacks are not only targeting troops!! but there are Palestinian groups that do not support attacks on civilians and try only to target troops and off-duty troops etc....

Let me ask you, when these groups that try only to target Israelis troops blow up a bomb where Israli troops are knowing it will also kill and would huge amounts of innocents or "non combatants" are they merely colateral damage?? Are they accidental deaths?? No, they are calculated deaths, just as the kids who constantly die during missle strikes on cars are also calculated deaths.

It is a classic deceptive strategy, and a flawed system of thought, to believe everything your military tells you as fact and then to deny any of the enemies suffering as "Palestinian media propaganda". You know what thats called Javenh??? Its called "dehumanization of the enemy". It makes it alot easier to deal with killing them. Very very similar to what the Nazi's civliians did so they could sit passively by as millions of Jews were murdered in the next town over!!!! "Oh the Jews arn't being killed like they say. Thats just evil Jewish propaganda. Here is a report from the SS saying that they are only putting the Jews in camps for their own protection. I think an SS officer would know what he is talking about dont you since he is in the camps.? These Jews and thier collaborators havnt even been to the camp themselves. How would they know??"

That kind of thinking is very dangerous....it can cause people to be complicite in genocide as the Germans were during the holocaust.....

Again, Im not attacking Jews and I support Israels right to exist.

[Javehn]

I know mate , that you are Pro Israeli . I noticed on your previous posts . ;)
I can tell you from the bottom of my heart , as a former IDF soldier , that we really really really tried not to heart people that shouldn't be heart . Every soldier had the right to decline order, if he feels he can harm someone . I used this right on occasions myself . I swear on my dry socks .

And no one says it's perfect . Offcorse i would respond in a bit of overprotective matter . That's my country after all . But the things i reading here sometimes , well that's just making me dance on my chair in the house, and curse the day i decided to install IDSL on my new computer . ;) And for someone , that studying this day with 20 arabs in class , i can hardly say i dehumanise them , otherwise it would be very non plesent to me , study with them in the same class (i am not talking with you about my naighbours , which are classy fellas , btw) . But i do hate the way the Palestinians are playing the game .

BTW : One of the first thing we learned in Boot cam , were 13 soldiers basic values . And one of them was to treat population in proper way . That was repeated to our years time after time after time after time . Value "purity of arms" , value "human dignity" , value "human life" , value "sence of mission " and so on . Time after time after time we discusted those exact scenarios you tell me we have failed . We had a class called "chirurgical warfare" , or knife warfare , just about this matter.



And last request : Please bring me the tape of Helicopter, where it is sean , that the helicopter is shooting , in the middle of the crowd . Please . If you do , i will became a member of ISM , and preach for everlasting peace on the plannet , donating my every single pany to the world refugees . That's a promise .

[Mr. Nielsen]

What is the connection , what the hell is the connection between Flistimlans of 3000 years ago , and the Arabs that call themself Palestinians those days ? What is the connection ? Jews in Israel 60 years ago were called Palestinians . So , they are also the sons of those Plishtims . Stop smoking the **** , and quit reading "PalFacts" .

I'm looking at a shorter space of time. The land between the Mediterranean and the Jordan river is the place where the palestinians come from, also those that now lives in Jordan. That's also where there fathers lived... grandfathers.. etc. That makes it there ancestral land, that is/were, there home.

But where the came from before that, I don't find particularly important. Some might have immigrated through times from other areas. Some of them are perhaps ancestors to the inhabitants of the ancient israeli kingdoms or some of the other kingdoms that came and went, who have since become muslims or arabs.

Those people are closely connected with that land, and I see no point in wishful thinking that they didn't.



And how come you haven't answered not one of my PM's . What can you hide ?

I will look into that, it's not a feature I have been using much.

[Javehn]

hehehehe . You know how to hide yourself in your profile . And every time you registered , the PM box is comming out . You can't fool great Papa Kulikov ;) .

Promise me Nielsen , that you would come tommorow . Now i must go to sleep , and unfortunatly , i can't be very productive now . Come tommorow please , we will forther talk about it .

[citizen-k]

What is the connection , what the hell is the connection between Flistimlans of 3000 years ago , and the Arabs that call themself Palestinians those days ? What is the connection ? Jews in Israel 60 years ago were called Palestinians . So , they are also the sons of those Plishtims . Stop smoking the **** , and quit reading "PalFacts" .

I'm looking at a shorter space of time. The land between the Mediterranean and the Jordan river is the place where the palestinians come from, also those that now lives in Jordan. That's also where there fathers lived... grandfathers.. etc. That makes it there ancestral land, that is/were, there home.

But where the came from before that, I don't find particularly important. Some might have immigrated through times from other areas. Some of them are perhaps ancestors to the inhabitants of the ancient israeli kingdoms or some of the other kingdoms that came and went, who have since become muslims or arabs.

Those people are closely connected with that land, and I see no point in wishful thinking that they didn't.



And how come you haven't answered not one of my PM's . What can you hide ?

I will look into that, it's not a feature I have been using much.

So much BS in a single post.... whhhooo

1. Jews lived in that area also :bash:
2. Jews lived all over Europe - are you willing to give it back? (I want my grandfathers house in Dubnov and my grandmothers house in Warso) ;)
3. The Palestinians (arabs) from both sides of the Jordan river (which is hardly a stream in European terms) got Jordan as their homeland.

It is impossible to invent land - the western side of the Jordan river is the Jewish state and the eastern side is the Palestinian state.

Jews left Europe, North Afirca and Asia and moved to Israel - Palestinians can move to Jordan, its not that bad.

They had their chance to live together - but after they behaved like animals they are not welcome any more, enough is enough.

http://rotter.net/israel/mecountry.gif

[Mr. Nielsen]

1. Jews lived in that area also :bash:

There have always been jews in the area, but few between roman times and the zionist immigration.



2. Jews lived all over Europe - are you willing to give it back? (I want my grandfathers house in Dubnov and my grandmothers house in Warso) ;)

As a Dane I can't answer for others. But in general, people that have been displaced have the right to return and/or be compensated.



3. The Palestinians (arabs) from both sides of the Jordan river (which is hardly a stream in European terms) got Jordan as their homeland.


Who says Jordan is their homeland?

[IsdatU]

http://cache.*****images.com/comp/3087299.jpg?x=x&dasite=MS_GINS&ef=2&ev=1&dareq=DF5280521401DF34355DA3FDD876B708



I would really like to gut shoot the evil bastards who would use an unwitting child for a delivery system.

[IsdatU]

As a Dane I can't answer for others. But in general, people that have been displaced have the right to return and/or be compensated.


Then you agree in principle that the Jews have the right to return to their homeland?

[Mr. Nielsen]

As a Dane I can't answer for others. But in general, people that have been displaced have the right to return and/or be compensated.


Then you agree in principle that the Jews have the right to return to their homeland?

I'm afraid that international law doesn't have retrospective effect.
When the jews left the area there were no international law. Sorry.

[obd]

Here is the funny thing about people having the right to return: The Jews place their right of return going back to biblical times. The Palestinians also claim the right to return and have actualy living people who were displaced during the creation of the state of Israel. They can tell you where they used to live. They can show you the land that they grew up on and that thier fathers and grandfathers grew up on and used to own............

Yes Jews have been living in that land for a very long time but so have Palestinians. Jordan is not the Palestinians homeland. It is both the Jews and the Palestinians'. Thats why the problem is so intractable and unsolvable........

The funny thing is this: While the Arabs complain of how bad Israeli's treat Palestinians it is the Arabs themselves who really do them wrong. In Jordan for example, Palestinians are kept in internment camps and have no rights and die off from malnutrition and have zero education... Strange that Europe is so focused on the "poor Palestinians of Israel" and completely ignores the fact that thier are many more Palestinains in Jordan who suffer. If they really cared about the Palestinains and wernt just playing political hate games agaisnt Jews then perhaps they would be threatening Jordan with sanctions and such instead of Israel............just a thought.

[TALOS]

Here is the funny thing about people having the right to return: The Jews place their right of return going back to biblical times. The Palestinians also claim the right to return and have actualy living people who were displaced during the creation of the state of Israel. They can tell you where they used to live. They can show you the land that they grew up on and that thier fathers and grandfathers grew up on and used to own............

Yes Jews have been living in that land for a very long time but so have Palestinians. Jordan is not the Palestinians homeland. It is both the Jews and the Palestinians'. Thats why the problem is so intractable and unsolvable........

The funny thing is this: While the Arabs complain of how bad Israeli's treat Palestinians it is the Arabs themselves who really do them wrong. In Jordan for example, Palestinians are kept in internment camps and have no rights and die off from malnutrition and have zero education... Strange that Europe is so focused on the "poor Palestinians of Israel" and completely ignores the fact that thier are many more Palestinains in Jordan who suffer. If they really cared about the Palestinains and wernt just playing political hate games agaisnt Jews then perhaps they would be threatening Jordan with sanctions and such instead of Israel............just a thought.
Too totally true, if they really are their Arab brothers why dont they provide more than hateful rhetoric?
Dont see them steppin up to help out

[Kilgor]

Too totally true, if they really are their Arab brothers why dont they provide more than hateful rhetoric?
Dont see them steppin up to help out

That is true... I think there is only one arab country that accept palistinian refugees and thats jordan.

Arab solidarity is a myth

[Javehn]

To mr. Nielsen :

First of all , you should understand , that no one denying the right of Israeli arabs to live here (and not the so call "Palestinians") . They didn't left the country during 1947 war , they stayed in Israel . They live in Israel today . Some have very good work , cars , and enjoying they lifes . Practicly most of my naighbours are Arabs .

Those who left , left from the own will . Some was urged by Arab leaders to leave Israel , some fled because they were afraid to get in the midle .
The fact is , that the newly day born state of Israel didn't arrise and attacked 5 bigest countries in the region , because we felt a fire in our balls . They attack us , they leaders talled Arab inhibitants of Israel to f_ck off , excuse me for the language , and then didn't wanted to take them .
If i am not mistaken , can you tell me then who is responsible for the fellas to leave ? Israel then ? From all the half million (and not milion) refugees that left , how much of them were actually done by Israelies . That came and say : "Ok , fellas , this land is ours today . So please , get lost far far away" . So , it's hardly makes it our problem ? But sence our good loving members to continent was unviling to have they own brothers by race and language in their countries , so it's suddenly our fault ? Sounds like good old "blame the long-nose Jew" . 100,000 refugees , that were separated from they families , returned back to Israel and were compensated .
Can you say the same about Jewish refugees from Arab countries ? You do understand there were those . But somehow no one remember them . They didn't flee the countries unllike Palestinian refugees , they were deported by force . We exepted them , because they are our nation , unlike the poor Palestinian guys that eat **** from they own brothers .

Do you familiar what mr Husni Mubarak , president of all mighty Egypt said about Refugees ? Mind , that is the president of the most influative Arab country in the region . Egypt himself , pal . No more , no less . “The Palestinian demand for the 'right of return' is totally unrealistic and would have to be solved by means of financial compensation and resettlement in Arab countries.” Pr. Husni Mubarak , ladies and Gentelements . The man himself .
So , people that leave from they own weal , are actually called refugees ? And Arabic Jews that were expelled from their houses , what the hell are they ? Peace of **** ? It's a luck that they brother took care of them . Better then the Palestinians , who ate **** .

Do you know , that king Abdulah of Husein forbid to use term Palestine in his official papers ? You know that the Jordain did occupied the west bank (perhaps not from Israel , as it was done on UN map )and enaxed him to his kingdom of Jordain , but hey , not one single pips . Yes , serry Bob , they can occupy and get away with it . They can do it all !!!! But if it's us , ugly long nosed Jews , hell no !! Killers , occupiers !! We are the reason for all the troubles in the region . Yes , yes , kill em all .
Anyways , Jordain occupied the west bank , Abdula said , "Hell no , you biaches ain't calling yourself Palestinians . And if you move one step from the west bank , asta la vista pandehos " . Egypt guys , that occupied Gaza strip in 1948 : No Palestinians is allowed to leace to strip . You can't have our Egyptian documents , brother , so get lost , and go blame the Jews" . Pretty effective tool . **** on your own people , and tell them , that it's Jews fault . Yea , sir , it's working pretty well . What can be more easy then hate those Jews ? Nothing at all .

Part 1 ended .

[citizen-k]

As a Dane I can't answer for others. But in general, people that have been displaced have the right to return and/or be compensated.


Then you agree in principle that the Jews have the right to return to their homeland?

I'm afraid that international law doesn't have retrospective effect.
When the jews left the area there were no international law. Sorry.

rofl

No need to prove your biased point of view in EVERY post you make.

And no, sorry won't do - I will not become a refugee just because there is a Mr. Nielsen out there who is sorry...

The UN gave us this land to be our state - and so be it, if any one has a problem with that (Palestinians) they are most welcome to face our military force and try to convince us otherwise.

No need to start talking about 67' yada yada yada, the last explosion in Ashdod made it clear they are not after 67' lines only.

[Javehn]

Hehehe .
Citi-k , go to Denemark . Get the adress where your grandpa lived . Nock on that door and say "Jally goote morgen , ladies and gentlemen . Das ist maine house , kindly get lost from here . I have the fool right of return . I swear , mr. Nielsen tolled me so. Ya ya " .

[Elmo]

They had their chance to live together - but after they behaved like animals they are not welcome any more, enough is enough.

http://rotter.net/israel/mecountry.gif

This map... :cantbeli:

Exactly the same rhetoric has been used somewhere in the 1930's.

If you try to show all the places where the Palestinians could be moved, you bring to mind a certain island where a certain population was supposed to be moved.

Think about it.

[Javehn]

edited . Elmo , ease up on that X you taking .
Damnit , how much ?? Almost every day someone comes , and starts to make remarks about our country . Your country isn't the perfect one in the world , so go fix yourself , and then we talk . We fix our own country , thank you very much .

[citizen-k]

They had their chance to live together - but after they behaved like animals they are not welcome any more, enough is enough.

http://rotter.net/israel/mecountry.gif

This map... :cantbeli:

Exactly the same rhetoric has been used somewhere in the 1930's.

If you try to show all the places where the Palestinians could be moved, you bring to mind a certain island where a certain population was supposed to be moved.

Think about it.

certian populations WERE moved... into that little blue mark you see on the map - this is their state now - and Palestinians (new invented nation) can search a place for there new state ELSEWHERE (somewhere inside the yellow)

[Elmo]

edited . Elmo , ease up on that X you taking .
Damnit , how much ?? Almost every day someone comes , and starts to make remarks about our country . Your country isn't the perfect one in the world , so go fix yourself , and then we talk . We fix our own country , thank you very much .

This is a discussion forum. The issue of this particular thread is an alledged 10-year-old carrying a bomb.

I believe it is highly political. Everyone is allowed to comment.

If you find it difficult to digest that similar maps were produced by a propanga machine of a certain dictatorship in the 1930's, so be it.

By the way, why do you care so much, as you labeled me as a naive 20-year-old, who lives in a dream world with bright lights and alleged me of being under the influence of drugs?

If you want to discuss Finland, feel free to do it, I'll reply. What would you want to discuss? The kindergarden army? Drug traffic in Finland? But you go ahead and start a new thread.

[Truthsayer]

Nablus, West Bank - A 10-year-old Palestinian boy who was arrested on Monday in the West Bank carrying explosives, was being used by Palestinian militants as a suicide bomber, Israeli security sources said.


http://www.iol.co.za/index.php?click_id=123&art_id=vn20040316014001154C265356&set_id=1

Oh...someone DID "think about the children".

[S'13]

If you find it difficult to digest that similar maps were produced by a propanga machine of a certain dictatorship in the 1930's, so be it.

Can you give examples of these maps?

This map represents the truth, that there is only one Jewish state and that there are 22 Arab/Muslim states.

[M_S]

To mr. Nielsen :


Those who left , left from the own will . Some was urged by Arab leaders to leave Israel , some fled because they were afraid to get in the midle .

If i am not mistaken , can you tell me then who is responsible for the fellas to leave ? Israel then ? From all the half million (and not milion) refugees that left , how much of them were actually done by Israelies . That came and say : "Ok , fellas , this land is ours today . So please , get lost far far away" . So , it's hardly makes it our problem ? Part 1 ended .


No, all who left did not leave from own will and yes there were some ugly things made by the new settlers. The arabs were not that friendly either.

As for the jews living in israel they had all the right to claim their land but those living in Europe didnt have a right to settle down in israel as if they were born there. They were killed in millions yes, however the arabs living in Israel didnt kill them it was hitler.

You know if you think about it, the "palestinians" or arabs who left in 1948 have the right to claim the land they left even after 2000 years in exile and after they have mixed up with europeans, africans, orientals.....

Im confused here...the jews from around the world but mainly from europe claimed the land because they were jewish..but what are jewish and how much jewish do you have to be to be considered jewish?
If being a jew is all about faith and not race then its even more complicated, who desides who is a real jew and who have the right faith, there are tons of people only believing in some parts of a religion

The jews should look like arabs because of the location of their land, but still there are "white", "black" and maybe "yellow" jews....my conclusion is that they have mixed with the native population of the area they moved to

Are those still jews?
are they still jewish

[IDFM203]

Wow what do we have here…… ;)


Listen I have gone over in more detail before (and check my postes from when I first joined), how there was Arab terrorism way before any so called Jewish one (the 1929 massacre in Hebron is but one example) and how even those jewish “terrorists” were NOT supported by most Jews, where as the Arab ones, which were much more frequent then any Jewish ones (and the Jewish ones were a lot of time targeting British MILITARY targets and not civilians) were in fact supported by most arabs at that time.

Or I have gone over the fact that 100 years ago most of the land of Israel was not inhabited, period. Now yes there were pockets of civilization like in Jerusalem, Hebron and some towns, but that was it and yes in those towns there were more Arabs, but there were also Jews as there were ALWAYS Jews living there.

Or I have gone over already in great detail how the Jews accepted to live in coexistence but the Arab rejected that and had 7 Arab nations invade to wipe out all the Jews and in the process they asked their fellow Arabs living there to leave and promised them that after they win, they can return (I have in the past here, brought down numerous Arab quotes from that time proving that).

I also have gone over the FACT that any Arab that wanted to stay and not leave WERE granted Israeli citizenship and in fact thousands and thousands of Arabs chose that to where now there are over a MILLION Israeli Arabs (around 20 percent of the population)…all this is defiantly not a sign of Israel forcing a population to leave….it shows on the contrary!!


I have also gone over in great detail the Arab aggression (and moves (like forcing the UN out, closing the straits of tarren(sp?), ammasing their troops on the border, rallies with their announcements of their intentions to wipe out Israel etc.) that forced Israel to pre-empt in 1967 and the subsequent victory and the following Khartoum conference where the Arabs declared NO negotiation, NO recognition, NO Israel…..

I have also gone over how there is no moral equivalence to Israel targeting murderers or ones that had blood on their hands and accidentally killing a bystander (often put there on purpose) to what the Palestinians do most of the time, in purposely targeting innocent civilians.

(I also notice that some of the critics of Israel’s policy of targeted killings, don’t look at their own governments actions that have done the same or worse in their wars in Afghanistan or in iraq….but that is a whole other matter)

And lastly (before my main point) I have gone over how Israel does make mistakes and how it is not perfect, though at the same time, NO ONE in this world is perfect and EVERYONE makes mistakes, however for the most part, Israel has been correct (and mostly as a result of no choice) in the way it has defended itself from total destruction from its surrounding enmies that far outnumber it, to constant attacks on its citizens, in the past fifty plus years of its modern existence.



And I have gone over a lot more in great detail (and those that remember me from when I first joined, my posts and their lengths, put OBD's length to shame ;) ) and if people want to dispute what I brought up above, well be prepared for a long rebuttal…. however all that is moot point for waht we are dealing with NOW and is a side issue for the following that I am going to say.



From 1993 to the year 2000, Israel made BIG steps and BIG concessions for the sake of peace, with getting absolutely NOTHING in return!!

Israel had pulled out of every Palestinian town and city, to where the Palestinians had over 95 percent full autonomy over their own lives, not only that but they had plenty of jobs in Israel… there were also very very few checkpoints and overall (most of the chekpoints were set up AFTER the intifada broke out to curb the constant homicide attacks), the occupation or presence of IDF forces, were very well hidden or in a lot of places (like in their cities and towns etc..) were NON existent.

However all through that, the killings of Israelis and homicide bombings NEVER STOPPED and the incitement against Israel and a non acceptance for its existence in the mosques and in the children’s schools and in their textbooks, NEVER STOPPED.

And then in the year 2000, Barak offered to give up much much more and yet instead of the Palestinians returning for negotiation they started a war that a lot of times had them ONLY targeting civilians anywhere in Israel and not just beyond the 1967 lines.


The fact is that besides the few token English words of acceptance for the consumption of the gullible west (and never spoken in Arabic) a large segment of the Arab world and the Palestinians, do not and have never accepted Israel’s right to exist and they fight/support for the whole destruction of Israel.

As such, Israel had no choice, after what was constant homicide bombings and attacks on its civilians, it had no choice in 2002 (though it should have done it two years earlier…though the fact that it didn’t further shows Israel’s restraint), to go back in to their cities and towns to put a end to it or at least limit it and it has worked, to where before a homicide attack was almost daily or weekly and shooting attacks on Israelis was also that frequent, now its down to a monthly occurrence (and hopefully after the anti terrorist security fence is completed, it will limit it even further) , and shootings on Israeli are even more infrequent.

Understand that in no way am I saying that this is a 100 percent solution for its not and frankly, there is no 100 percent solution, though Israel’s actions after the Oslo process and the failure of the Palestinians themselves to fight terror or to even put in any real effort, has forced Israel to respond to defend ourselves and all this was in the absence of any TRUE peace partner on the other side no matter what (even after we pullout out of every etc…they had jobs etc... almost no checkpoints etc…..)

So this whole argument of whether it’s a 10 year old homicide bomber or simply one that carried a bomb, makes no difference, for either way, its inexcusable that a kid would be used in such a way but it is no surprise (and indeed tragic) after the kind of education that they have been getting even when there was less of any occupation (as any excuse).

Shalom :D

[Javehn]

Mate , it's all lost at them . Those trolling bitches ain't bringing something , that wasn't allready answered right here, in this forum . They quit reading after 3 lines, doesn't interesting to them . They just want to beach about some country , and apparantly we are good target for them . Someone brings them picture of 10 years old boy used for terror , and 3 pages away , IT'S OUR FAULT.

But personnally , i rather live in country where we fight every day for our lifes , then in the country where people like to foock a ship . Just my personal thought , but i think the menthality of people are better in first country .

[M_S]

That arabs in general support the terroism made by the palestinian arabs is of no suprise, offcourse, but if you read what i have wrote in may latest post (not this one ;P) you will see that you have only answered the beginnng of my post...................

[IDFM203]

Mate , it's all lost at them . Those trolling bitches ain't bringing something , that wasn't allready answered right here, in this forum . They quit reading after 3 lines, doesn't interesting to them . They just want to beach about some country , and apparantly we are good target for them . Someone brings them picture of 10 years old boy fighting for terror , and 3 pages away , IT'S OUR FAULT.

But personnally , i rather live in country where we fight every day for our lifes , then in the country where people like to foock a ship . Just my personal thought , but i think the menthality of people are better in first country .Yeah I hear you mate :D


OK yes I do recognize that out of the posters on this thread, there are a few "kids" or ones that have the intelrct of one or at least how thier posts on this conflict sound like, and as such my reponse above was not directed towards them, for yes no matter what, its always the Jews fault, still others on this forum read this and there were one or two posters, that although I disagree with, they at least made respectful arguments or at least presented it in that way and not in the flammatory BS way that I have seen also in this thread, and as such my reponse was more or less directed towards them.

Shalom to all :D

[Javehn]

No, all who left did not leave from own will and yes there were some ugly things made by the new settlers. The arabs were not that friendly either.

I think you are confusing different time points rofl .


And why do you read somewhere , and say the Arabs have no right on their lands ? I have many any Arabs live with me , as i wrote allready (and offcorse , you didn't bother to read :bash: ), 20 percent of Israeli population . But the refugee point is too much complicated now to solve it in simple way . As the president of bigest Arab country who fought against Israel 3 times said himself .

If they liked Israel so much , so , they haven't named Israel in any way . And second , those Arabs that live in Israel , brought by Halifat rule , as part of some type "military service" , to block them before Africa . They didn't exactly liked to live in Israel , and prayed to leave the place . And for every right , the place was ****hole , up to this century when we made it look good .

[M_S]

No, all who left did not leave from own will and yes there were some ugly things made by the new settlers. The arabs were not that friendly either.

I think you are confusing different time points rofl .


And why do you read somewhere , and say the Arabs have no right on their lands ? .


What am i confusing and were did i state that the arabs didnt have the right to claim the land?

[Javehn]

What am i confusing and were did i state that the arabs didnt have the right to claim the land?

No no . Please understand me right . I said , that you said , that we think , that Palestinians have no right to claim the land .

I just don't understand what setllers you are talking about ... The "setllers " were long long after that point of time .

[IDFM203]

-edit-

[obd]

Nice post M203.

Very well put defense of Israel although I have the feeling you could do alot better if you put in the time. I recommend you do so as there are alot of people here, myself included, who may have misconceptions about Israel and the history of the region.

Again, I recomend you take action to dismiss and preempt alot of the crap being floated around by Europeans about Israel and the Palestinians

By the way, I still disagree with you on the whole Israeli terror group issue. The Israelis Jewish Defense League and Betar Movement have been involved in some shady undertakings if you know what I mean.......but of course all nations use terror and all nations have homegrown terror groups so that doest really matter I guess.....especially considering circumstances....but I just listed that to give you example.

examples of terror actions would be the attack on British Foreign minister Ernest Bevin for which Rabbi Meir Kahane was arrested for leading the Bater youth group that did the attack....

Next would be Ze ev Jabotinsky who actually founded Betar.....and of which Menachem Begin was a member and who headed the Irgun group. Yitzak Shamir headed the Lehi group also known as the Stern Gang which had role in 1944 murder of British Middle East Envoy Lord Moyne and in the September 1948 assasination of Swedish United Nations peace mediator Count FolkeBernadotte.................

The Jewish Defense League was involved in a number of operations against US citzens between 1969 and 1972 mostly involving Russian immigrants and blacks.....and on May 12, 1971 Kahane was arrested by US federal agents for conspiracy to manufacture explosives for terror use.

Kahane eventualy fled back to Israel and became involved in politics and entered th Knessit but was assassinated in 1990 in New York.

Here is a quote from one of Kahanes speeches that is earily similar to HAMAS and AQ speeches of todays times.....

...Vengeance is a fundamental Jewish concept that is a precept, injunction, commandment for the Jew...Vengeance becomes, thanks to the gentilized and perplexed era in which we live, a maligned thing...Let the government of Israel, which is responsible for the lives of its citizens, make the streets, buses, shops and homes of the Ishmaelites [Palestinians] perpetual places of terror and stark insecurity...Wipe away the bitter degradation of God's name that is symbolized by Arab refusal to bow to Jewish sovereignty. A truly Jewish government is one that understands the need to...burn out the desecration by removing, burning out, the evil that is the Arab nation in our midst.

the above is from a 1980 Jewish League community paper he wrote.

Here is another of his quotes from a 1982 essay

Jewish and liberal democratic values are incompatible, Kahane often insisted: "I have said it a million times. Western democracy as we know it is incompatible with Zionism...The idea of a democratic Jewish state is nonsense." (note 15) On another occasion he stated: "Democracy is for people who don't have the truth. No earthly, temporal government has any relevance to the actions of the Jew when its orders and regulations are contrary to [Jewish] Torah law...Judaism has never been a democratic form of society

I suggest you read Kahanes book called ¨They Must Go¨where he outlines plans to eliminate all Israeli arabs.....this from a man in the Knessit!!!

In his book he also states ****** relations between Jews and non'Jews are a criminal act.

This sonds to me like Khahane was a Jewish Hitler of sorts.......

IT MUST BE KEPT IN MIND HOWEVER THAT FEW PROMINANT JEWSISH LEADERS ACTUALLY SUPPORTED THIS MAN AND HE DOES NOT REPRESENT MAINSTREAM JEWISH THINKING AT ALL. I JUST THOUGHT I SHUOLD DEFEND MY STATEMENTS AND SHOW THAT ISRAELI RADICALS DO EXIST AND JEWISH TERRORISTS IDEOLOGY IS A REAL THING AND IS JUST AS BAD AS PALESTINIAN TERROR ALTHOUGH I MUST ALSO STRESS THAT SOME OF THESE GROUPS ARE LONG DEAD AND MOST FO THE SURVIVING ONES ONLY HAVE A FEW HARDLIN RADICALS IN THEM.

AGAIN ONE CAN FIND RADICALS SUCH AS THESE AND RADICAL IDEOLOGY SUCH AS THIS WITHIN ANY AND ALL NATIONS AND ALL RELIGIONS!!!!!!!!! THIS IS NOT INTENDED TO BASH ISRAEL OR TO SINGLE THEM OUT:

IT IS INTENDED AS MERELY AN EXAMPLE: NOTHING MORE. I CAN GO FIND OVER 100 AMERICAN GROUPS THAT HAVE THE SAME VIOLENT IDEOLOGY SO PLEASE REALIZE THIS!!!!!

[obd]

Here is a list of JDL activites against some American citizens as recorded by various police reports,

George Ashley, a high school history teacher and supporter of the IHR, has been the target of several terrorist attacks because of his revisionist views. In April 1982, two bricks were hurled through the front window of his suburban Los Angeles home. One month later, two gasoline fire bombs were thrown against the front of his house, and in December of 1982, JDL criminals ransacked Ashley's home, causing an estimated $26,000 in damage. (note 68) Mordechai Levy later boasted: "We warned him [Ashley] that if he continued his activity, he would pay a consequence...We warned that if the school board does not stop Ashley, we would stop him." (note 69)
In July 1984, Ashley received repeated telephone calls from someone who threatened to bomb his home. A JDL member identified by police from tape-recordings of the threats was later arrested. (note 70) In August 1984, JDL member Michael S. Canale was arrested on suspicion of making a bomb threat against George Ashley. (note 71)
In May 1985, Ashley's home was the target of a another bomb attack, in which no one was hurt. The letters "JDL" were spray-painted on the walkway leading to Ashley's front door. (note 72) This attack was cited in a January 1986 federal government report: (note 73)
The following month [May 1985], the JDL claimed credit for bombing the house of George Ashley, Los Angeles-area high school teacher who had told students that the number of Jews killed by the Nazis during World War II was considerably less than the commonly accepted figure of six million, and that not more than a million Jews perished during the war.
Dr. Charles Weber, a contributor to the IHR's Journal of Historical Review, had his car vandalized in two separate incidents during the month of April 1985. A note from the JDL, which threatened to escalate the attacks into a bombing, was left behind in the second incident. (note 74)
Dr. Reinhard K. Buchner, a professor of physics at California State University, Long Beach, and a member of the IHR Editorial Advisory Committee (1980-1983), was the victim of repeated JDL harassment in 1981, 1982 and early 1983. He was spat upon, physically attacked, threatened by phone, and harassed at his office and home. (note 75)
German-Canadian publisher Ernst Zündel, a prominent revisionist activist, has been repeatedly attacked by the Jewish Defense League. In December 1983, JDL thugs beat him on the steps of Toronto's Old City Hall. The JDL carried out another attack against him on February 6, 1984.
In September 1984, Zündel's home in Toronto was damaged in a pipe-bomb attack. A group calling itself "The People's Liberation Army of the Jewish Defense League" claimed responsibility in a phone call to a local television station. In January 1985, a JDL mob attacked Zündel, his attorney Doug Christie and Christie's female legal secretary at the entrance to a Toronto courthouse.
The office of a German-American group was set on fire in 1985, apparently because of the organization's skepticism about Holocaust claims. According to a report on terrorism issued in January 1986 by the federal Department of Energy, in June 1985 (note 76), an anonymous caller stated that the JDL had intentionally set fire to the offices of the German-American Political Action Committee in Santa Monica, California. The German-American group probably incurred the JDL's wrath by its advocacy of the view that "Jews were not gassed by the Nazis...[and that] numbers and reports of predetermined extermination are greatly exaggerated by professional liars."

[obd]

I must also stress that I have no problems with the fire bombings of German holocaust deniers as the represent a direct threat to Jewish security. I have encountered holocaust denial group sit ins when I took a class on the holocaust and let me tell you that they made me so angry that I could have thrown them out the window. People like that are not just threats to Jews, they are threats to humanity itself.

Again, some of the actions in this VERY SHORT list I would have supported back in the 1980´s.

I also want to again stress the nature of these attacks as being decades old and not contemporary at all. Just to make sure people realize this!!!!!

Again, I support Israel but not blindly. I look at all sides of issue as much as I possibly can and after all my readings I have concluded my opinion on Israel and am a staunch supporter of its right to exist.

Again, I have tons of research on Arab terror groups and they far far far outweigh and Jewish groups in destruction caused, radical ideology spread, and numbers and many of them are contemporary whereas many Jewish terror groups existed during the violent upheavals after the creation of the state of Israel when it was under virtual seige from its enemies at all times and under threat of annihilation.

My favorite quote from IDF m203 is this,

If the Palestinians put down thier arms there would be peace. If the Jews put down thier arms there would be genocide.

Its not quite an exact quote, sorry, but you get the meaning and I agree with it completely 100%!!!

[Truthsayer]

Both sides are wrong [right now] and are never going to solve anything as it stands [right now].

[Elmo]

Can you give examples of these maps?

This map represents the truth, that there is only one Jewish state and that there are 22 Arab/Muslim states.

I know that you know exactly what I was refering to. I could only come up with this...

http://www.calvin.edu/academic/cas/gpa/posters/map.jpg


...although it is not a map arguing for living space but the outcome of Versailles treaty. Believe me, there are many maps similar to this and the Israeli map screaming for living space.

Anyway, a map that shows a tiny population surrounded by huge 'other' areas is nothing new to propaganda.

And yes, it is true that there is only one Jewish state. I am not against the existance of Israel, only against the way the conflict is being handled.

One thing. Now that I post a picture related to Nazis (mid 1930's) in a thread like this I want to stress that in NO WAY I am relating Israel to Germany in 1930's and 1940's. My point is how maps are being used to argue things. There are also other examples like maps where the creation of Greater Finland was argued in a similar manner. This map, however, was easiest to find.

[Javehn]

I think Elmo means the map that represent Israeli military strnegth . Apprantly we are stronger then the 22 nation surrounding us combined . Yes , the land with 5 million people against half milliard , we kick them all . And that's what we really after , imperial Zionists !!

[IDFM203]

Nice post M203.

Very well put defense of Israel although I have the feeling you could do alot better if you put in the time. first thanks for the compliment :D …and yes I can put in more (and thanks for recognizing that ;) ) and in fact I HAVE, all you have to do is do a search of my posts (and predominately when I first joined) and you will see that I address each and every point that I brought up before in much greater detail (and as I said before, the length of my posts then are much longer then yours and they even put yours to shame ;) )




I recommend you do so as there are alot of people here, myself included, who may have misconceptions about Israel and the history of the region. yes I do see that alot of people do have misconceptions (including you) though it is tiring to repeat everything in full detail over and over again…I repeat, go search my postings, especially some of the debates when I first came on and you will see a lot of details that address a lot of FALSE (either by pure naiveté or on purpose by some) misconceptions and insinuations.



By the way, I still disagree with you on the whole Israeli terror group issue. The Israelis Jewish Defense League and Betar Movement have been involved in some shady undertakings if you know what I mean....... I don’t think you disagree with me per say, though I think you have more misconceptions of this and where I stand.

Yes there have been Jewish terrorists (though I disagree with some of the group labels you have attached that too), however, the fact is that unlike the Arab terrorists groups (that were much more prevalent and started way before any Jewish acts) where they have always got support from MOST of their Arab breatheren, the Jewish ones have NOT gotten a lot of support from their Jewish brethren when a terrorists act was committed and in fact a lot of Jews were against them. Like with what happened to the Lehi group for example where the hagganah and other Jewish DEFENSE organizations at that time vehemently disagreed with their tactics and were not in support of them.

Again, for the most part, before 1948, except for a FEW cases, most of the attacks were against British MILITARY targets and not against civilian targets which was in stark contrast to MOST of the Arab terrorist attacks that were committed much more frequent against Jewish CIVILIAN targets with the FULL support of MOST of their Arab brethren.




As for now and JDL, first of all, they are an extreme fringe group with very very LITLLE support amongst most of the Jewish world.

Secondly even if you don’t like them, to compare them (or say they are alike) to Arab terrorist groups that mostly TARGET and KILL civilians on a constant bases for YEARS now, to the JDL that has for the MOST part done NO such thing (hell even that list there has no killings), and the few killings that it might have done were FEW and FAR in between and done by a few individuals, to compare is in itself preposterous and not being intellectually honest and fair.

Again you might disagree with their ideology, which is a debate onto itself, but their ACTIONS and the frequency of them, don’t even come close (not even in the same legue) to what the Arab terrorist organizations have done and the amount of it. ( I mean if you play this list game, which is intelectualy dishonest in the way you presented it, I mean I too can,but a real list, a list that dwarfs that one, by Arab terrorists that are mostly about actual KILLINGS and targeting of civilians, that has/had A LOT of support amongst their Arab breathern…………contrary to almost no killings and very little support that the JDL has/had amongst Jews.)

Btw on their ideology, while you might find it extreme and most certainly a lot of it is extreme, the fact is that a lot of what he (kahana) said was correct and he was right about a lot of it. (not all of it but alot he got right...and i am not talking about what he felt should be done about it, for that is a whole other debate onto itself)

Shalom :D

[Elmo]

I think Elmo means the map that represent Israeli military strnegth . Apprantly we are stronger then the 22 nation surrounding us combined . Yes , the land with 5 million people against half milliard , we kick them all . And that's what we really after , imperial Zionists !!

No. How could you possibly interpret it like that? In fact, I don't even know what you are talking about. Well, I think 99% of people got the message, there are always some who either refuse to understand or just don't get it. I mean, even if one disagrees, one usually understands what is going on.

[pinkeye]

it all comes down to: f#%k islamic and jewish extremism. hamas and co. and jewish settlers all merit a kick in the nuts...

[Truthsayer]

it all comes down to: f#%k islamic and jewish extremism. hamas and co. and jewish settlers all merit a kick in the nuts...

Amen to that brother - praise the Lord.



Do'h. ;)

[Javehn]

Both sides are wrong [right now] and are never going to solve anything as it stands [right now].

Simple like that , ha ? Idiot.
If the both sides wrong , then how come there is still Palestine ?? I think it's pretty safe to say , that we can level West bank and Gaza in a matter of hours , and they are no real much for our army .



No. How could you possibly interpret it like that? In fact, I don't even know what you are talking about. Well, I think 99% of people got the message, there are always some who either refuse to understand or just don't get it. I mean, even if one disagrees, one usually understands what is going on

I don't understand . You brought this kindergarden map with a army toys on them , sorry , but that's how i understood you . IDFM , please explain me what he ment , i fail to understand this guy . I understand , you saying , that we want to expand . Our map looks like Nazi presented map . I understand it right i think . Morron on the loose .

[Truthsayer]

Both sides are wrong [right now] and are never going to solve anything as it stands [right now].

Simple like that , ha ? Idiot.
If the both sides wrong , then how come there is still Palestine ?? I think it's pretty safe to say , that we can level West bank and Gaza in a matter of hours , and they are no real much for our army .
[/quote]

Thanks for proving my point.

And you are...9?

[Javehn]

And how i prooved your point ? By sayin that Palestinian terrorists are trying to kill us without a stop , even on their ****y resources ? While our Army can close the deal in the matter ogf hours, but as you can see it doesn't done ?
How i prooved your point ?

[pinkeye]

[quote=Truthsayer]Both sides are wrong [right now] and are never going to solve anything as it stands [right now].


Simple like that , ha ? Idiot.
If the both sides wrong , then how come there is still Palestine ?? I think it's pretty safe to say , that we can level West bank and Gaza in a matter of hours , and they are no real much for our army .

your post doesn't address the statement made by truthsayer. both sides are clearly wrong by any number of standards. israel is no angel, and we all know palestinians are currently dancing with the devil. there is a fundamental breakdown in discourse at all levels, hence the continuing cycle of violence perpertrated by both sides. and violence is not solely defined through suicide bombings and targeted killings; it is has other forms. if you ever happen to see the excellent documentary "the fog of war", one of the fundamental lessons raised is the importance of empathising with your enemy. both sides could learn from this.

how come there is still a palestine? that doesn't even merit an answer because it's pretty damn obvious.

[IDFM203]

Sorry Javehn I haven’t followed every post or conversation, and
Contrary to what my sigline says in blue, (and I had tried in the past), I cant keep up with all of them and as such I have learnt (or tried) to limit my conversations to those that are really interested in real debate based on real facts or at least on sane intellectual arguments and not on one liners (that I see a few posters have resorted to :roll: ) or fake non sensical (sp?) arguments that are not based on any relevant history or facts.

Not to mention that I have clearly addressed a lot of what they say, but yet they seemed to have intentinatly ignored it as if they didn’t read it and just continue on repeating the same FALSE points that I already debunked...(hmm :roll:)

To those people, there isn’t much to say for its clear that they aren’t interested in any real dialogue or debate…………oh well.

Despite all that,

Shalom to all :D

[Javehn]

Both sides are wrong [right now] and are never going to solve anything as it stands [right now].


Simple like that , ha ? Idiot.
If the both sides wrong , then how come there is still Palestine ?? I think it's pretty safe to say , that we can level West bank and Gaza in a matter of hours , and they are no real much for our army .

your post doesn't address the statement made by truthsayer. both sides are clearly wrong by any number of standards. israel is no angel, and we all know palestinians are currently dancing with the devil. there is a fundamental breakdown in discourse at all levels, hence the continuing cycle of violence perpertrated by both sides. and violence is not solely defined through suicide bombings and targeted killings; it is has other forms. if you ever happen to see the excellent documentary "the fog of war", one of the fundamental lessons raised is the importance of empathising with your enemy. both sides could learn from this.

how come there is still a palestine? that doesn't even merit an answer because it's pretty damn obvious.

I haven't seen that documentary , it was probably someday on history channel . I have read the book by the same name , published by some General , and reporter , and talking about Gulf war , but i don't think you are reffering to it . But there is excellent book on that matter , "War and Strategy" , by Jehosopat Herkebi (yes , he Israeli . I understand that it discredit him , but this guy is a world known on his books , they were recognised worldwide . He was a teacher in Oxford also , if i am not mistaken ) .

To your second part , that my question doesn't neads no answer . Have you heard about Kurds in Iraq ? Armenian refugees from Turkey ?? Kurd and Turks problem ? Azerbajanians and Armenians ?? I am shure that you fagely now about the first problem , while others are extremmely strange to you . All those werent stoped . And until this day , people in western world have a problem to know those things . While a real genocide happened there . So trust me , if someone hates someone , he can do it .
And no UN will stop them to do that (well , unless it's Israel offcorse , and then terror is a " right for freedom fighting" , and the checpost of Israel are pure and simple genocide ) .

[Elmo]

And then in the year 2000, Barak offered to give up much much more and yet instead of the Palestinians returning for negotiation they started a war that a lot of times had them ONLY targeting civilians anywhere in Israel and not just beyond the 1967 lines.



You seem to think much of yourself IDFM203, yet you fail to realize that peace can only be possible if there is an independent Palestinian state. That offer of Barak was "much much more" only because he said so. In reality the occupation continued. Israel controlled all the border-crossings, settlements criss-crossed the west bank. If and when the other side wants an independent state, it can be said that Barak's offer was humiliating.

This has been forgotten. You only write your mature and analytical story about 'the fact' that no matter what good Israel gives to Palestinians they always bomb you.

And now The Fence.

Israel would definately get more symphaty if it acted otherwise and most importantly, there might be peace one day.

And Javehn, please don't drag this into "who killed who that and that year"...doesn't help much.

[Javehn]

And Javehn, please don't drag this into "who killed who that and that year"...doesn't help much.


Did i responded to you ?? Does my post was adressed in any matter to you ? Does your name mentioned there ? So how come you answering it ??


You seem to think much of yourself IDFM203, yet you fail to realize that peace can only be possible if there is an independent Palestinian state. That offer of Barak was "much much more" only because he said so. In reality the occupation continued. Israel controlled all the border-crossings, settlements criss-crossed the west bank. If and when the other side wants an independent state, it can be said that Barak's offer was humiliating.

I am not shure what you propose ? The border crossing should be manned by Chinese army ? Or ET's ? There were Palestinian cops manning the crossing in their side , and the continue of the road . You said we should give them country . I am pretty shure , that between countries there is border, and it is manned by soldiers .

Waw , i just can bellieve . You really live in very strange world . I am not shure , how does your army getting menthal cases , but it seams you have very loose touch with reallity .


Israel would definately get more symphaty if it acted otherwise and most importantly, there might be peace one day.
What kindergarden you think we belong to ? You should stop reading Andersen child stories . Let's all love each other , and play those lovely guitars ...

[S'13]

That offer of Barak was "much much more" only because he said so. In reality the occupation continued.

Mmm, I wonder why, maybe it's because the Palestinians decided to reject the offer Barak gave them and resort to a terror campaign (the so called "Intifada"), you know there is a reason it was called an 'offer'. The Palestinians had to also make concessions on their part and sign the treaty before it could be implemented, however the Palestinians didn't do so and declared "Intifada". It takes two to make peace, you know... :roll:



Israel would definately get more symphaty if it acted otherwise and most importantly, there might be peace one day.

Well, if I was to chose between your symphaty and my peoples lives, I would prefer my peoples lives :cantbeli:

[IDFM203]

"And then in the year 2000, Barak offered to give up much much more and yet instead of the Palestinians returning for negotiation they started a war that a lot of times had them ONLY targeting civilians anywhere in Israel and not just beyond the 1967 lines."

You seem to think much of yourself IDFM203, You see this is what I am talking about…..you say a statement like that and then people wonder why there are these petty flame wars :roll:

I mean what?… I should respond with some stupid insult of what I think you are as well and let this continue (like you have done now :roll: )…..I think not…ok you got your first jab in…..consider that the last one with me even bothering to respond to your post…..if you continue with lame one liners like that I probably wont respond to you and will put you in with the other flamers and less intelligent folks that are here to troll and not for any serious discussion and debate (I said if you continue with a line like that, you are as such…remember that before you respond)

I always welcome opposition and debate, hell if I didn’t I wouldn’t be on this site, but childish name calling and insinuations is a non starter and it bellies the fact that the poster is not here to debate in any serious matter and that will hopefully be recognized by other members as well



yet you fail to realize that peace can only be possible if there is an independent Palestinian state. no you fail to realize that Israel tried to move in that direction and even made BIG concrete steps towards that to where it had pulled out of EVERY Palestinian city, town and village, to where there were very little checkpoints, etc…the palis had jobs.etc… and yet the killings and incitement and non acceptance of the whole Israel for the most part NEVER stopped and it the killings never stopped all over in Israel and not just in those settlements which only further shows that a lot of Palestinians want a independent state IN PLACE of the whole Israel and not side by side in just the west bank and gaza.



That offer of Barak was "much much more" only because he said so. what? :roll: , he offered a lot more and that has been proven and yet was rejected with a war, hell even if it is disputed if it was 95 percent or 65 percent, the fact is that the Palestinians didn’t counter then with any negotiated response but rather with a war.

Arafat, before all that, spoke a few nice things in English for the consumption of the gullible west and it allowed it to fool a lot of Israelis, but always spoke the opposite in Arabic and was never serious about living side by side as a lot of the Arab world and the Palestinians are not as well, no matter what.





In reality the occupation continued. Israel controlled all the border-crossings, First of all the occupation was much less and in their cities and towns it was non existent and was going to be much less with baraks offer through a negotiated settlement, I mean it was supposed to be give and take, Israel lessons the occupation, which it did by leaving towns and villages, and the Palestinians were supposed to fight terror and stop the incitement in order to create trust, but yet NONE of that EVER happened.

As for border crossings, well till a negotiated settlement and a true peace, That land is Israel’s and it has a right to control border crossings and check them for illegal arms that come in.

Btw even though it controlled border crossings, Palestinians for the most part were allowed to go though them.




settlements criss-crossed the west bank. First of all, the settlements make up a small percentage of the actual land mass.

Secondly most of those settlements were built on baron and empty land and not in the place of some pali village.

Thirdly, yes Israel was going to give them up, that was going to be the next step after Israel had pulled out of their cities and towns which it had already done, but the palis never stopped the violence and inctement and they in fact rejected baraks offer with a war. (hell Arafat then didn’t even offer any counter offer)


So yes before Israel went back in 2002, for the most part, the IDF presence was not in any pali city nor was there many checkpoints thoughout the west bank and as such, the palis had full autonomy over their own lives and had close to fifty percent of the whole west bank land mass under their own control.

And barak was negotiating to give over a lot more and pull back those settlements. That is the point; he was going to pull them out. He never got that chance after arafat rejected him.

Now did Israel ever get any thing in return in the form of peace or even any real effort by them to stop the violence and incitement after Israel had made the earlier BIG concessions of PULLING OUT of EVERY Palestinian city and town?? no it didnt!!

They have shown nothing to show that even if Israel pulled out of the west bank and gaza, there would be peace, in fact they have shown how in fact there wouldn’t be and that a lot would still fight for the whole Israel




This has been forgotten. You only write your mature and analytical story about 'the fact' that no matter what good Israel gives to Palestinians they always bomb you. you dispute this merly by your MERE say so, that is all that I have seen, I on the other hand have made a case and brought down a lot of facts and details to back up my claim of “no matter what”

If you dipute that fine, but make a logical case for it and not just this statement here.




And now The Fence.

Israel would definately get more symphaty if it acted otherwise and most importantly, there might be peace one day. so before Israel put in the anti terrorist security fence to stop what was almost daily and weekly homicide bombings, it got sympathy? :roll: I don’t think so and even the little it did, yeah great :roll: ….I will take less supposed sympathy but as a result, less of our lives being lost any day of the week.

You can have your sympathy (that supposedly we would have gotten :roll: ), I will take lives being saved over it any day of the week.

Your supposed symothy before any IDF actions or supposed sympathy if Israel in your view did or didn’t do anything, didn’t nor has never saved any Jewish lives, only the IDF actions and now the anti terror security fence will help save a lot that before wouldn’t have been saved.

Also witness the Gaza fence, where there has been a security fence for years now and almost NO homicide bombers have come from there!!

Shalom :D

[Elmo]

Javehn,

Eastern border. Under Israeli occupation. Israeli forces.

And now the fence. They want to be independent. Now, Israel builds a wall that only roots the occupation to the ground and thus makes it permanent.

Israelis get the most fertile land, Palestinians the rest...in an area surrounded by a fence. Farmers can't even get to their land.

They want an independent state and you do this?

You want peace?

Luckily you are just one tiny hardliner without too much wits. Luckily there are intelligent people that are familiar with common sense and solidarity.

I find it amusing that you call me with names all the time, accuse me of taking extacy, reading fairy-tales and also being mentally unstable.
You are also apparently fixated about the Finnish Army, you have mentioned it to me already twice. www.mil.fi/english/

[Javehn]

What ???????????
Thank you , and bye bye .
Don't forget to take your medication tonight . You may nead it .
You are trully a nut case . Congratulations . Go see a doctor now .

"Luckily you are just one tiny hardliner without too much wits. Luckily there are intelligent people that are familiar with common sense and solidarity.
"
There isn't here the smily that can describe my exact emotion . Just piss of , buthead . Or ask IDFM203 , what are my views .

I think it's safe to say , that the "arguement" is over from our side.

[obd]

IDF M203, thank you for the reply. In reading your response it seemed like you missed the part where I said that they were an extreme fringe group and were not supported in mainstream politics. I put it in all caps hehe. Just making sure you dont think I was saying that Kahana represented widespread Israeli opinion.

Also I mentioned as well, in all caps, that the combination of all Israeli terror groups was only a drop in the bucket compaired to Arab terror in violence, populaiton numbers, a spread. I also mentioned, in all caps, that most Israeli terror groups I brought up were decades old and were created in response to Israel being under a state of defacto seige since its creation and facing combined enemy forces surrouding it and greatly outnumbering it as well as possessing such a small territory.

I muat say I dont envy your position in the world IDF M203. You are surroudned by Islam and radical Arabs hell bent on your destruction by any means possible and you posses few freinds in the world due to still widespread by quite anti semetism. Yet still you put up the brave fight and carry on. I must say, as long as there is one Israeli left there will still be a state of Isreal because he will be fighting for it!!

This is one reason I wonder why Israeli Massod (spelling?) did not conduct more covert operations against Pakistani nuclear program. I fear the Pakistani's are a greater threat to Israeli security than many think because they have shown great willingness to sell to wring states and proliferate and I see nuclear warheads as the only realy viable way the Arabs can destroy Israel in the near future anyway. Who knows 300 years from now but.........

Tell me, have there been any discussions in Israel about strikes on Pakistani nuclear reactors and facilities as soon as the "fake freindship" or "freindship of momentary convenience" between Pakistan and America grows sour???

I for one always applauded the very brave Israeli strike on Ossirak. I think America owes Israel a kiss on the ass for that one and Europe owes Israel ten kisses on the ass hehe. God only knows where we would be today if Saddam had been able to achieve nuclear warheads back in the mid 80's. I shudder to think on it. THANKS ISRAEL!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Also, you may have a few longer posts then me but I used to not use paragraphs and I bet you cant say that!!!! In fact, I have had lawsuits taken out against me from Israel, England, and Finland by members of this forum accusing me of making them go blind.

In the case of the Israeli I just siphoned off military assistance funds and gave him 10 million USD. In the case of the Brit I told him American cars sucked and European cars were the best and that seemed to make him happy enough to drop the lawsuit. In the case of the Fin I told him Russia kicked thier ass in world war two. He called me a liar, bought a Valmet Ak clone, and rushed off into the Finnish wilderness and I havnt seen him since. Problem solved!!

[Truthsayer]

Javehn>> Since I honestly don't know...where do you live? Are you just young (and have a lot of free time) or is your mother-tongue some language far from english? Since, sometimes, I don't understand what you are trying to write...and you often seem to misunderstand others.

And the flaming doesn't help either.

[IDFM203]

First I want to say that no matter your view, you are most certainly an interesting fellow to converse with ;) …take that for whatever it means.

Interesting indeed :D


IDF M203, thank you for the reply. In reading your response it seemed like you missed the part……………………………………… No I didn’t miss it ;) , simply you said a lot that tried to support that they are alike and your disclaimer non withstanding, I felt that the impression you gave was false and I needed to address that and put things in proper context.

That is all.


I muat say I dont envy your position in the world IDF M203. You are surroudned by Islam and radical Arabs hell bent on your destruction by any means possible and you posses few freinds in the world due to still widespread by quite anti semetism. Yet still you put up the brave fight and carry on. I must say, as long as there is one Israeli left there will still be a state of Isreal because he will be fighting for it!! Interesting paragraph, which I agree with.

I will just add that our resolve is strong because we have don’t have much choice

Golda meir once said that Israel’s secret weapon……is no choice!!

Anyways friends or no friends, our situation is certainly better then how it was before we had the IDF to fight and defend ourselves with.



This is one reason I wonder why Israeli Massod (spelling?) did not conduct more covert operations against Pakistani nuclear program. ok a few responses, first however good the Mossad is (and non-withstanding some mistakes and some mess-ups so to speak, as ALL spy agencies have done themselves, it has proven itself to be one of the best) it isn’t some supernatural force or organization that it can achieve anything at any time for everything has certain limits and considerations to it.

Secondly, I nor you have worked for the Mossad and as such we don’t know what they have done or not done to make a statement like you have made “why Israeli Massod (spelling?) did not conduct more covert operations against Pakistani nuclear program”

Hell they could be on a mission there right now and we wouldn’t know about it ;)

Believe me Israel is on top of it but each problem has different methods and realties and ways to deal with and that needs to be taken into consideration.


I fear the Pakistani's are a greater threat to Israeli security than many think well I can assure you that those that matter in the security of Israel, know everything you just said and much more….don’t worry, they are not asleep at this threat.



Tell me, have there been any discussions in Israel about strikes on Pakistani nuclear reactors and facilities as soon as the "fake freindship" or "freindship of momentary convenience" between Pakistan and America grows sour??? yes what Pakistan has, has been discussed and it is in the Israeli papers every now and then.

As for strikes, I don’t know if I ever saw something like that with relation to Pakistan though what’s talked about in private in the security and government realms is another matter ;)

And yes none of us here ever bought into this whole Pakistan is now good and peaceful U.SA. Ally crap and even if musharf (sp?) is sincere, there are large forces in Pakistan that are worrying and there is no guarantee that he will remain in power forever….so yes there is concern.




I for one always applauded the very brave Israeli strike on Ossirak. I think America owes Israel a kiss on the ass for that one and Europe owes Israel ten kisses on the ass hehe. God only knows where we would be today if Saddam had been able to achieve nuclear warheads back in the mid 80's. I shudder to think on it. THANKS ISRAEL!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! I have read somewhere that in 1991 (during or before or after, the gulf war), Israel did receive some official thanks from the U.S. government for this (or at least it was from some offcials).

Unfortunately the world at the time (and still now) never applauds a good action in prevention when it is done by force (as there was no other way at the time) or especially if its done in defense of Jews, and Israel has to pay for that in general, though thank god at that time, it ignored it and did the right thing.

P.S. All I said was that I had longer posts then you, not that my style of writing was as yours, for yes your instance in the beginning of not learning how to separate into paragraphs was very annoying to say the least and didn’t reflect too well ;)

Shalom :D

[IDFM203]

Ok back to the topic at hand and this ten year old homicide bomber or bomb carrier (depending on how one feels that it might make any difference :roll: )

Again whether he was a homicide bomber, or ones that dressed up as such like here……….


http://www.israel-wat.com/kid.jpg

http://www.israel-wat.com/kid11.jpg

http://www.israel-wat.com/show12.jpg

Or if he was just like those hundreds of kids that are cynically used and encouraged and taught by their society to be as shields or to get hit for propaganda purposes like here……..(and this happens all the time)

http://us.news1.yimg.com/us.yimg.com/p/rids/20040211/i/r1566466835.jpg

http://us.news1.yimg.com/us.yimg.com/p/rids/20040211/i/r817088121.jpg

http://delivery.*****images.com/comp/2967625.jpg?x=x&dasite=MS_GINS&ef=2&ev=1&dareq=E2399169AC85D6DE20A975EB9D3E35C0AA1F349BACC11BD8

http://us.news2.yimg.com/us.yimg.com/p/ap/20040211/capt.jrl12302112014.mideast_israel_palestinians_jrl123.jpg

A masked Hamas militant sets up a makeshift mortar launcher against Israeli forces, unseen, as Palestinian youths try to cover him from the sight of the forces during an incursion in a Gaza city's neighborhood, Wednesday Feb. 11, 2004.

(If this last pic doesn’t show up…..it shows a kid purposely standing right in front of this mortar)


Or if its kids handling weapons like here in clear indoctrination rallies like here……


http://www.israel-wat.com/g4k_eng.jpg

http://www.israel-wat.com/child2.jpg

http://www.israel-wat.com/pic5.jpg



It all makes no difference of what this ten year old was for the fact is that no matter what it is despicable but it isn’t too surprising after the education and indoctrination and societal acceptance and encouragement by a lot, even before the intifada, when Israel had pulled out of every city and town and they had jobs etc.. But yet acceptance of Israel was never taught and in fact the opposite was/is taught from an early age,….the use of these kids is despicable and is one of the greatest obstacles to any true peace from EVER happening.


I will end off with a great quote from Golda Mair who was a former Israeli prime minister


“peace can only come when the Arabs learn to love their own children more then they hate ours”


Shalom :(

[AirZone]

IDFM... i salute you woot

i even learned new stuff i didnt know ;)

[big80a2]

yep,
IDFM great post
totaly respect Israel rights. woot
respect your idf soldiers for protecting me wen I lived in Israel....actually feel more save in israel than in Amsterdam.

cheers

[hey]

I have a qustion for Elmo and Truthsayer

What's the source of your information about the israeli-palestenian conflict?

from where you aquire your knowlege about it?

[Truthsayer]

http://www.commienaziliberaleurotrashgaymuslim.net.gov

We are a very tight group of morons.

[Elmo]

I have a qustion for Elmo and Truthsayer

What's the source of your information about the israeli-palestenian conflict?

from where you aquire your knowlege about it?

My neighbor called Abdullah told me...

No, seriously. Media. And books. Like everyone. Nobody has first-hand knowledge of the conflict as a whole.

I think you are trying to argue that I'm not competent to say anything because I'm not there...am I right?

[TALOS]

I think Elmo means the map that represent Israeli military strnegth . Apprantly we are stronger then the 22 nation surrounding us combined . Yes , the land with 5 million people against half milliard , we kick them all . And that's what we really after , imperial Zionists !!

No. How could you possibly interpret it like that? In fact, I don't even know what you are talking about. Well, I think 99% of people got the message, there are always some who either refuse to understand or just don't get it. I mean, even if one disagrees, one usually understands what is going on.
Well I for one dont get your point, you are saying that the Israelis use a map showing they are surrounded as propaganda? Ummm... just so's ya know, they are surrounded, it's not propaganda, it's fact, and they are at threat of attack all the time from the Arab nations, thats also fact.

[AirZone]

I have a qustion for Elmo and Truthsayer

What's the source of your information about the israeli-palestenian conflict?

from where you aquire your knowlege about it?

My neighbor called Abdullah told me...

No, seriously. Media. And books. Like everyone. Nobody has first-hand knowledge of the conflict as a whole.

I think you are trying to argue that I'm not competent to say anything because I'm not there...am I right?

yeah... shut up rofl
j/k.. anyway... rofl rofl rofl media ?!

AHAHAHAHAHAH now thats funny... you get info from the media ?

if it was from the book ok (depends if the writer is well known)
but from the media ?

if you really want to know.. you should come and live in here.. like haifa my city, great city, hot girls, beach.. (and fireworks once in while :|)