Simunitions - anyone ever used them?

[wulfstan]

Just saw a programme last night that had US troops training with simunition rounds. They look great, has anyone ever used them? What are they like? Do they hurt? (stoopid question i guess)

http://www.triplebreakproducts.com/images/Simunitions/9mmInside.gif

[Iceman]

I have never used simunation but my friend did. Simunation is very good way to train realistic battle. And yes, it hurts. Protective gear is essential.

[wulfstan]

i was wondering if the recoil and report is the same as live ammo? Looks like great fun, i take it that they are restricted to military and police personel only? Anyway, don't think they exist in the UK. Beats the hell out of paintball...

[Royal]

The report is quieter, but there is little difference in recoil.

They are used in the UK, but not much (because of ISAWES). And yes, they bloody hurt ;)

[ZoneOne]

LoL yes they hurt... though i've never been shot this is as close as i have been.

The recoil is slightly different but it is the closest thing you can get to real battle.

I had to chance to train with some police down in South Florida.
It was a blast but it was very real. One of them was shot in the jaw and it looked as if he was hit in the face with a baseball bat. Pretty nasty stuff but it lets you know what your doing right and wrong and helps you out in real battle.

atleast with this -- you can make mistakes and brag about it.

:-)

[Flagg]

The report is quieter, but there is little difference in recoil.

They are used in the UK, but not much (because of ISAWES). And yes, they bloody hurt

Royal.....does Simunition cause much in the way of weapon cycling issues?

[Royal]

Royal.....does Simunition cause much in the way of weapon cycling issues?

If you mean cycling of the action, then no. Although it does seem dirtier than normal ball ammunition.

[Javehn]

Can someone tell more about this thingy ? What the hell is it ?

[Bartok5]

We use Simunition (a Canadian product BTW) in the Canadian Army for urban operations training. As others have said, the report is more muted, and the recoil is slightly reduced from that of full-bore 5.56mm ammo since you are firing what amounts to a reduced load 9mm round with a plastic detergent-filled projectile.

For the M-16 based service rifle/carbine family, the Simunition kit consists of a replacement upper receiver (including bolt) and buffer assembly. Obviously the bore is 9mm, the chamber is different, there is no gas-system (straight blow-back operation), the bolt is a one-piece unit (like that of an open-bolt SMG), and the lighter-weight buffer is required for reliable operation. The barrels on the Simunition upper receivers are painted blue for ease of recognition, and they feed from a 20-round clear plastic magazine. It takes all of 2 minutes to switch an issued rifle/carbine over to Simunition.

The rounds hurt like heck if you are hit within 25 metres. They will produce an abrasion like a cigarette burn if you are struck in a non-protected area. I still have scars on my arms and legs from urban interior combat training several years ago. It was summer, so aside from our frag vests, a groin protector and the Simunition helmet and throat protector, all that stood between us and the rounds was our combat uniform. All it takes is one hit on unprotected flesh for soldiers to suddenly start applying their battlecraft and associated CQB drills with exacting attention to detail! In that regard, Simunition is an outstanding training aide.

The biggest shortcomings with the basic 9mm Simunition round are its limited effective range, incompatibility with MILES/SAWS/WES laser-based engagement simulators (related to the first shortcoming), and incompatibility with belt-fed weapons.

The limited effective range means that Simunition's usefulness is limited to interior combat/CQB training. It is no good for the approach/assault and break-in to a building, as the velocity and associated accuracy rapidly drop off much past 25 metres.

The current incompatibility of Simunition with the laser-based engagement simulators such as MILES 2000 means that you can't attach the laser transmitter to your Simunition barrel and seamlessly transition from laser engagements beyond 25 metres, to simunition engagements at close range. The MILES 2000 reps that supported one of our large-scale urban operations exercises a few years ago told me that the firing impulse of the Simunition is too weak to trip the MILES 2000 laser transmitter. They are/were working on the problem so that the 2 simulation systems could be twinned to allow the use of both systems simultaneously (eg. the best of both worlds).

Finally, incompatibility of the 9mm Simunition round with belt-fed weapons such as the Minimi and MAG-58 has meant that normal infantry support weapons could not be effectively employed in Simunition-based urban operations training (eg. for covering long hallways, or for maximum suppressive fire during non-discriminatory engagements where there are no non-combattants present). Happily, this is in the process of changing, as SNC-Laval (the Simunition manufacturer) is now producing a 5.56mm version of the Simunition round. By adapting Simunition to the standard 5.56mm casing, it will now work with standard distinegrating links and will feed through the Minimi coversion kit that is apparently under development.

I hope this answers some of your questions. For more information on Simunition, do a Google search using "Simunition" or "SNC, Laval" to find the manufacturer's web-site.

[Gringo]

Question to the fellas who've used that and laser simulators.
What do u think is the best to use for a realistic yet safe field training exercise?

[Laconian]

I have trained with Simunitions & laser simulators and thought the "Sims" training was better. As mentioned it is excellent for "force on force" or scenario-based training in an indoor or CQC scenario. From an LE training perspective, it allows for very realistic training for use of force by enabling the LEO to move up or down the Resistance Control Continuum to deal with an offender. This allows the LEO to go hands on or shoot as necessary, while enforcing the lessons of cover (at least concealment), movement, tactics & techniques. From a trainers perspective its better than sliced bread.

They are also great for working fluid drills on targets without having to go to a range where there are generally a ton of restrictions on shooting & moving, lack of cover, range fans, etc.

[JiJoMacLE45]

We use them in certain phases of training(active shooter, etc). I believe they've even been implemented into academy scenario training evolutions. We fire them through Glocks and there is very little difference between firing a sim round and the real thing. They're a good training tool.

[Javehn]

Sounds very interesting . But again , can someone explain a bit more ,what are those , and how they work ?

[IsdatU]

I read that the Navy SEALS would just handload a primer and a wax bullet into a .357 Magnum case for training.

This is something that anyone can do at home. p-)

http://www.leeprecision.com/

[Bartok5]

The question of which system (laser-based or Simunition) is "better" is entirely situation-dependant. For military training, both have their place.

The Simunition is unquestionably superior for interior combat training at short ranges. However, urban CQB is merely one of many skill-sets that a conventional military force must be capable of performing. By and large, military forces spend more of their time training and operating at longer ranges in open, mixed, and complex terrain - both mounted (mechanized) and dismounted (light). In those training scenarios which call for engagement beyond 25 metres, Simunition is of minimal use. The laser-based engagement simulators with their ability to represent direct-fire out to the maximum effective range of the weapon system in question (rifle versus carbine, versus LMG, versus GPMG) are what is required.

Furthermore, you must bear in mind that when a military force moves out of the interior combat/CQB environment, the full range of direct and indirect firepower can be brought to bear if the enemy threat and ROE call for it. Now we're talking about everything from medium and heavy machineguns, to automatic grenade launchers, to AT rockets and ATGMs, to mortars and artillery. Simunition cannot replicate the terminal effects of any of those infantry support weapons, whereas instrumented laser engagement systems can - replete with computerized tracking and detailed playback capability to facilitate comprehensive After-Action Reviews of what when well and what didn't.

For Law-Enforcement and Military HRT specialists whose typical engagements occur in close confines under 25 metres, Simunition is undoubtedly the way to go. For conventional military training, the laser-based simulators are far more flexible over a broad spectrum of simulated combat operations. Urban or Complex Terrain CQB is merely one small facet of the potential spectrum of conventional military operations. Simunition definitely has its place as a military training tool, but if the choice were limited to one or the other, then an army would definitely get more "bang for the buck" out of a laser-based simulation system used within a fully-instrumented training area such as the U.S. Army National Training Centre or the forthcoming Canadian Army Combat Manoeuvre Training Centre.

The ideal world of course, is to "twin" the Simunition and the laser-based Weapons Effects Simulator for training scenarios where soldiers must seamlessly transition from medium range to close-quarter engagements. The approach/assault and break-in during urban operations is a case in point, as I discussed above.

I trust that this will answer the questions about "which system is better". The simply answer is "neither" or "both". Selection of the most appropriate simulation system is entirely dependant upon the training audience and the goals/scenarios.

[James]

Can someone tell more about this thingy ? What the hell is it ?

A sim round is a round with a reduced charge. The bullet itself is a collapsible plastic shell filled with colored paste. When it hits, the plastic comes apart and leaves a little colored splat. See the picture on the first post.

Sims are great.

[MapleLeafInfantry]

We use Simunition (a Canadian product BTW) in the Canadian Army for urban operations training. As others have said, the report is more muted, and the recoil is slightly reduced from that of full-bore 5.56mm ammo since you are firing what amounts to a reduced load 9mm round with a plastic detergent-filled projectile.

For the M-16 based service rifle/carbine family, the Simunition kit consists of a replacement upper receiver (including bolt) and buffer assembly. Obviously the bore is 9mm, the chamber is different, there is no gas-system (straight blow-back operation), the bolt is a one-piece unit (like that of an open-bolt SMG), and the lighter-weight buffer is required for reliable operation. The barrels on the Simunition upper receivers are painted blue for ease of recognition, and they feed from a 20-round clear plastic magazine. It takes all of 2 minutes to switch an issued rifle/carbine over to Simunition.

The rounds hurt like heck if you are hit within 25 metres. They will produce an abrasion like a cigarette burn if you are struck in a non-protected area. I still have scars on my arms and legs from urban interior combat training several years ago. It was summer, so aside from our frag vests, a groin protector and the Simunition helmet and throat protector, all that stood between us and the rounds was our combat uniform. All it takes is one hit on unprotected flesh for soldiers to suddenly start applying their battlecraft and associated CQB drills with exacting attention to detail! In that regard, Simunition is an outstanding training aide.

The biggest shortcomings with the basic 9mm Simunition round are its limited effective range, incompatibility with MILES/SAWS/WES laser-based engagement simulators (related to the first shortcoming), and incompatibility with belt-fed weapons.

The limited effective range means that Simunition's usefulness is limited to interior combat/CQB training. It is no good for the approach/assault and break-in to a building, as the velocity and associated accuracy rapidly drop off much past 25 metres.

The current incompatibility of Simunition with the laser-based engagement simulators such as MILES 2000 means that you can't attach the laser transmitter to your Simunition barrel and seamlessly transition from laser engagements beyond 25 metres, to simunition engagements at close range. The MILES 2000 reps that supported one of our large-scale urban operations exercises a few years ago told me that the firing impulse of the Simunition is too weak to trip the MILES 2000 laser transmitter. They are/were working on the problem so that the 2 simulation systems could be twinned to allow the use of both systems simultaneously (eg. the best of both worlds).

Finally, incompatibility of the 9mm Simunition round with belt-fed weapons such as the Minimi and MAG-58 has meant that normal infantry support weapons could not be effectively employed in Simunition-based urban operations training (eg. for covering long hallways, or for maximum suppressive fire during non-discriminatory engagements where there are no non-combattants present). Happily, this is in the process of changing, as SNC-Laval (the Simunition manufacturer) is now producing a 5.56mm version of the Simunition round. By adapting Simunition to the standard 5.56mm casing, it will now work with standard distinegrating links and will feed through the Minimi coversion kit that is apparently under development.

I hope this answers some of your questions. For more information on Simunition, do a Google search using "Simunition" or "SNC, Laval" to find the manufacturer's web-site.

We train with simunition frequently in fibua and other drills with my unit as well.

you make very good points, heres my additions.
1. C7/C8 with simunition has serious difficulties doing an automatic burst, there is a tendency for rounds to overheat, melt and jam the barrel.
2. The magazine is right ****e, difficult to load properly and has frequent jams i've found.http://www.rhli.ca/pictures/2may03j.jpg

3. the protective equipment used in the CF for simunition... im talkin about the darth vader masks, i can't walk more than 10 steps without them fogging up, it also makes it impossible to use an elcan, most of us threw on enmergency iron sites.... Only with heavy modification to the mask can you actually breathe/run without it fogging up too much and have normal perceptions...

Ontairo based reservists at an exercise last yeaer.

http://www.army.dnd.ca/LFCA/EXStalwartGuardian/english/Photos_2/LC2003-0020-0281a.jpg
http://www.army.dnd.ca/LFCA/EXStalwartGuardian/english/Photos_2/LC2003-0020-0277a.jpg

http://www.army.dnd.ca/LFCA/EXStalwartGuardian/english/Photos_2/LC2003-0020-0278a.jpg
http://www.army.dnd.ca/LFCA/EXStalwartGuardian/english/Photos_2/LC2003-0020-0279a.jpg
[/img]

http://www.army.dnd.ca/LFCA/EXStalwartGuardian/english/Photos_2/LC2003-0020-0283a.jpg
http://www.army.dnd.ca/LFCA/EXStalwartGuardian/english/Photos_2/LC2003-0020-0273a.jpg

[Bartok5]

Maple Leaf Infantry,

My former unit (3 PPCLI) did the Simunition trials for the Canadian Army in 2001 prior to and during 1 CMBG's Exercise Urban Ram. Although we identified exactly the same shortcomings that you did regarding the protective gear (designed for LEO use), weapon and magazine reliability problems did not occur to anything near the extent that you have described.

No offence, but I have to wonder if members of your unit were briefed about the need to scrub out the bores of the rifles/carbines between each training scenario? The friction-based accumulation of plastic in the bore is recognized by the manufacturer as an inherent limitation of the Simunition system. This is why SNC/Laval recommend several passes with a non-lubricated bore brush every 70 rounds or so. If you don't remove the plastic build-up, you will experience reliability and feeding problems for sure. Scrub the bore between training runs (all it takes if a few quick passes with the brush), and reliability tends to be very good. A clean Simunition bore is also much more accurate than a fouled one. Personally, I experienced very few stoppages during several weeks of daily simunition use.

I agree that the 9mm magazines are comparatively difficult to load, due to their single-column method of feeding. Next time, try using the end of a cleaning rod to depress the rear of the follower as you load the rounds under the feed lips. If you can take the upwards pressure off of the follower, the mags are actually pretty easy to load - you simple slip the rounds in under the feed lips, without having to push down on them. You are also far less likely to damage the rounds this way. We recommended to the SNC/Laval rep that they put a slot in the side of the mag, with a thumb extension on the side of the follower sticking out through the side of the mag body. That way you could use your thumb to take the upwards spring pressure off of the follower, just like the system used on many .22LR pistol magazines.

SNC/Laval were supposed to be developing less cumbersome head protection for military users. The idea was to go with low-profile vented facemasks and safety glasses, similar to those used in civilian paintball. I don't know where they stand on developing the revised protective gear, but the factory reps who were with us throughout the 2001 trials certainly hoisted this aboard as the single biggest soldier dissatisfier. It is not just the fogging and inability to employ the optical sight (near-useless for interior combat anyways) that make the "Darth Vader" helmet problematic. The current "motorcycle-style" helmet also impedes verbal communictions, it is not compatible with our radio headsets, and it doesn't permit use of the issued kevlar helmet (which is always preferable from a training realism perspective). Hopefully SNC will get the helmet issue sorted out in the near future.

In the interim, notwithstanding its inherent limitations I remain convinced that Simunition is the best interior combat/CQB training aide currently available for military and law enforcement users. Laser-based systems are very good for all of the reasons that I stated in my earlier post, and both systems certainly have their relative strengths and limitations. Applied specifically to the CQB training environment however, Simunition is undoubtedly the superior choice. A laser-based "beep" simply doesn't provide the same degree of "lessons learned reinforcement" that a physical hit does - especially a hit that stings like hell for the next hour or so!

Cheers,

[shrek]

I have a friend that has a permanent simu-tattoo on his right calf.

You can't beat them for CQB. Nothing brings it home like getting hit and still having the actual weapon you would be carrying in your hand and not a paintball gun. It sort of brings it all home. "No more games, this is for real"! That kind of feeling!!