Spain's New Prime Minister: 'I Want Kerry to Win'

[seruriermarshal]

Spain's New Prime Minister: 'I Want Kerry to Win'
http://www.newsmax.com/archives/ic/2004/3/15/125545.shtml

Socialist leader Jose Luis Rodriquez Zapatero, who won an upset election victory over Spain's Prime Minister Jose Maria Aznar on Sunday on a platform of withdrawing Spain's troops from Iraq, has endorsed Sen. John Kerry in the upcoming presidential election.

"I think Kerry will win. I want Kerry to win," Zapatero told Britain's Guardian newspaper, just four days before he swept to victory riding a wave of anti-U.S. feeling sparked by the al Qaeda train bombings in Madrid.

Two days earlier Zapatero had blasted Aznar's alliance with the U.S., calling the Bush administration "the most reactionary American administration in recent times."

"We're aligning ourselves with Kerry," Zapatero proclaimed to the International Herald Tribune. "Our alliance will be for peace, against war, no more deaths for oil, and for a dialogue between the government of Spain and the new Kerry administration."

[Vance]

"We're aligning ourselves with Kerry," Zapatero proclaimed to the International Herald Tribune. "Our alliance will be for peace, against war, no more deaths for oil, and for a dialogue between the government of Spain and the new Kerry administration."
Yes, and when the terrorists strike again, we won't do anything about it, and not the next time either, or the next time, or the next time...


*sigh* How can you let people do these terrible acts to you country and let them get away? It boggles the mind.

[wholagun]

"I think Kerry will win. I want Kerry to win," Zapatero told Britain's Guardian newspaper

well hey that makes two of us. :) :hug:

[seruriermarshal]

"I think Kerry will win. I want Kerry to win," Zapatero told Britain's Guardian newspaper

well hey that makes two of us. :) :hug:


Maybe Mr. Zapatero say ...... that terrorists should have massacre again in U.S. ?

[wholagun]

"I think Kerry will win. I want Kerry to win," Zapatero told Britain's Guardian newspaper

well hey that makes two of us. :) :hug:


Maybe Mr. Zapatero say ...... that terrorists should have massacre again in U.S. ?

OMG here we go again. Just because I don't like bush and I don't want him to win doesn't mean that I "terrorists should have massacre again in the US". Don't even make such stupid comments.

[seruriermarshal]

"I think Kerry will win. I want Kerry to win," Zapatero told Britain's Guardian newspaper

well hey that makes two of us. :) :hug:


Maybe Mr. Zapatero say ...... that terrorists should have massacre again in U.S. ?

OMG here we go again. Just because I don't like bush and I don't want him to win doesn't mean that I "terrorists should have massacre again in the US". Don't even make such stupid comments.

No , my meaning is Zapatero not you .

[George W. Bush]

bin Laden wants Kerry to win also.

[GrantT]

Zapatero is a fruitcake, not even the French and German's make comments like he has in the last week.

[budanski]

http://cagle.slate.msn.com/working/040316/ramirez.gif

Funny... North Korea's Kim Jong Il, supports Kerry, along with Al Jazeera, the mouthpiece of al Qaeda. Welcome to the club, Zapatero.

[seruriermarshal]

French Going Wild For Senator Kerry In Election Fever

‘A CERTAIN ELEGANCE’ IS SEEN

By MICHAEL MANVILLE Special to the Sun

PARIS — It could be the flawless French he learned while at boarding school in Switzerland. Or that he summered in his youth at a picturesque village on the rocky shores of Brittany. Or his pledge to take America’s allies more seriously and pursue an inclusive foreign policy.

Or maybe it’s the simple fact that he’s not President Bush.

Whatever the reason, the French are going wild for John Kerry.

His face graces the covers of magazines and newspapers on Paris newsstands. He’s the subject of radio phone-in and television talk shows. Journalists chase down distant relatives and long-forgotten acquaintances in search of anecdotes.

If November’s presidential election were being held here, there’s no doubt that Mr. Kerry, the Massachusetts senator and Democratic candidate, would win by a landslide.

“People are going crazy. My phone is ringing from morning to night because everybody wants to know about Kerry,” said the head of the France chapter of Democrats Abroad, Constance Borde. “I’m even getting calls from French people asking if they can contribute to the campaign, and of course I have to tell them no.This is something I’ve never seen happening.”

It seems hard to imagine the French being enthusiastic about anything American these days. Under Mr. Bush, relations between France and America have been at their lowest ebb in decades, with the two nations trading jabs for more than a year over French opposition to the war in Iraq.

While Americans were muttering about “cheese-eating surrender monkeys,” the French were crying foul over “American imperialism” and burning Mr.Bush in effigy on the streets of Paris.

“There is no question the Bush administration is unpopular in France, as it is across Europe,” said the director of the French Center on the United States, Guillaume Parmentier.“Bush himself is deeply unpopular. He is perceived as being non-presidential; even his demeanor makes Europeans uneasy.”

But in Mr. Kerry, the French seem to have found an American they can embrace.

On the streets of Paris, his candidacy is being welcomed with open arms.

“He is very much admired in France,” said a municipal office worker, Patrick Forestier, as he strolled with his lunch through the Latin Quarter. “It seems like he will be more sympathetic to Europe… .And of course anyone who is opposed to Bush will be popular with us.”

A shop worker on Boulevard St-Germain, Dominique Van Oudenhove, said Mr. Kerry seems the perfect antidote to four years of Mr. Bush.

“It is so important to have a president who knows Europe, whose spirit is open to its people and culture. Bush is so closed to the world.With Kerry there is a hope that we can start getting along with the United States again,” she said.

Mrs. Borde said the French see in Mr. Kerry the kind of leader they are more accustomed to.

“He is the closest thing that you will have to a French politician, with a certain diplomacy, a certain elegance,” she said.“He is more like a leader would be in Europe,” Mr. Parmentier said. Asked in what way, he laughed and replied: “Well, he doesn’t look Texan.”

Instead, he looks like the kind of American the French have always appreciated — urbane, well traveled, and sophisticated. Mr. Kerry’s connection with France dates back to his youth, when he spent summers with a flock of cousins in St-Briac-sur-Mer, a summer resort town where his maternal grandfather had built an estate.

James Grant Forbes, an international lawyer and banker,settled there with his wife, Margaret Winthrop, in 1908. The couple raised 11 children, including Mr. Kerry’s mother.

Their rambling cliffside property, called “Les Essarts,” was destroyed when Nazi troops occupied St-Briac, but Mr. Kerry’s grandfather rebuilt the estate and it became a regular summer haunt of far-flung relatives.

One of Mr. Kerry’s cousins, 58-yearold Brice Lalonde, is a former French environment minister and now mayor of St-Briac.In an article in L’Express under the headline “My cousin JFK,” Mr. Lalonde recently wrote of how Mr. Kerry always took charge of his cousins’ activities when he visited the estate.

“He was the one who organized the games, who led the gang,” wrote Mr. Lalonde, whose car sports a “Kerry For President” bumper sticker.

Still, Mr. Kerry has not returned to St-Briac in 20 years. At the height of American-French tensions last year, he skipped a family reunion that saw more than 200 relatives gather at the estate.

In fact, some here are looking to downplay his European connections, fearful that they may harm him in the campaign and give ammunition to the Republicans. One Bush administration official has commented that Mr. Kerry “looks French.”

Mr. Lalonde has repeatedly told reporters Mr. Kerry is a quintessential American with a deep sense of patriotism.“To cut off all suggestion,well-meaning or ill-meaning depending on what side of the Atlantic it comes from, John Kerry is in no way a Frenchman, even if he knows France,” Mr. Lalonde wrote.

Mrs. Borde said she believes Mr. Kerry’s past will be more of an asset than a drawback.“I think this could play in his favor,” she said. “Ordinary Americans are beginning to understand what damage has been done to our international reputation and they’re getting worried about it.”

Some observers here wonder if the French are not in for a disappointment if Mr. Kerry becomes president.

Mr. Parmentier said French fans tend to forget the fact that Mr. Kerry supported the war in Iraq and that he isn’t likely to drastically change American foreign policy.

“His attitude is very different, so the atmosphere will probably be better,” he said. “But there is a limit to what he can do.” In an opinion piece published last week in Le Figaro, Bruno Tertrais, an analyst with France’s Foundation for Strategic Research, warned that the French are “dreaming” if they expect Mr. Kerry will give them “an America they can love.”

Writing that the French are expecting a victory for Mr. Kerry will mean an end to “neo-conservatives and fundamentalists, to military super-strength and attempts to reshape the world,”Mr. Tertrais said he wanted to “shatter some illusions.”

He wrote that American political culture was so changed by the September 11 attacks that the Democrats would be no less likely than the Republicans to exercise American military power.

“Bush or Kerry, the next occupant of the White House will still be a war president,” he wrote.

And as for rebuilding U.S.-French relations, Mr.Tertrais held out little hope that Mr. Kerry would be any different from his predecessor.

“The transatlantic crisis of 2003 is still too fresh for any American president, no matter who he is, to reach out his hand too visibly to our country.”

The French aren’t the only Europeans laying claim to a connection with John Kerry. In the tiny Czech village of Horni Benesov — the birthplace of Mr. Kerry’s paternal grandfather — residents are hoping to one day host a presidential visit. “I believe he will become the American president. He seems a very reasonable, very likeable person,” the town’s mayor, Josef Klech, told ******* recently. “He has said he has an interest in coming here if he visits the Czech Republic. This can put our small town on the world map.”

Mr. Kerry’s grandfather was Fritz Kohn, an ethnic German Jew born in Horni Benesov, a former mining town near the Polish border. A brewer in a land known for its fine beers, Khon moved to America at the turn of the last century, converted to Catholicism, and changed his name to Frederick Kerry. Mr. Kerry was unaware of his grandfather’s roots until a genealogist dug up the news last summer.


http://home.earthlink.net/%7Ejunk0mai1/KerrysGang.jpg

[Vance]

“Well, he doesn’t look Texan.”
hahahahahahahNO?

[Kilgor]

I bet every enemy of the United states wants kerry to get in.

France is no different.

[SeanAshi]

http://images.google.com/images?q=tbn:OleACeq2WvMJ:www.elsocialista.es/alt-jzap.jpghttp://www.3dnewz.com/images/icon_page/piss.gif

[EvanL]

And this is a surprise because why?
Damnit guys, how many of you have been living in caves? Is it surprising that the majority of people outside of the UNited States dont like Bush?
The majority of Urband Centres here in the U.S. dont like Bush.
Just look here in NYC, you see anti-bush slogans all over.
Different strokes for different folks.

[Ratamacue]

And this is a surprise because why?
Damnit guys, how many of you have been living in caves? Is it surprising that the majority of people outside of the UNited States dont like Bush?
The majority of Urband Centres here in the U.S. dont like Bush.
Just look here in NYC, you see anti-bush slogans all over.
Different strokes for different folks.

Well, New York's a liberal area. Maybe not so much upstate, but NYC and Long Island are without a doubt.

[Ratamacue]

And this is a surprise because why?
Damnit guys, how many of you have been living in caves? Is it surprising that the majority of people outside of the UNited States dont like Bush?
The majority of Urband Centres here in the U.S. dont like Bush.
Just look here in NYC, you see anti-bush slogans all over.
Different strokes for different folks.

Well, New York's a liberal area. Maybe not so much upstate, but NYC and Long Island are without a doubt.

[Quon Sen Hutt]

And this is a surprise because why?
Damnit guys, how many of you have been living in caves? Is it surprising that the majority of people outside of the UNited States dont like Bush?
The majority of Urband Centres here in the U.S. dont like Bush.
Just look here in NYC, you see anti-bush slogans all over.
Different strokes for different folks.


The people who do not like Bush are the fruity liberals, the communists, and the terrorists.


With enemies like that, Bush is definately going to get my vote.

[SeanAshi]

http://www.capmag.com/images1z2345x/comics/cf/ForAndAgainst-X.gif

[Quon Sen Hutt]

Well, New York's a liberal area. Maybe not so much upstate, but NYC and Long Island are without a doubt.

NYC is very liberal, but I think Bush has a good chance of winning most of the votes there. The way that the extreme Left has been demanding that we adopt appeasement policies with the terrorists while at the same time they are bashing Israel is going to drive alot of the traditionally liberal vote in NYC over to the GOP this election.

Another factor is that New Yorkers can look up at the Manhatten skyline and realise that it is better we fight the terrorists over there rather than over here.

[seruriermarshal]

And this is a surprise because why?
Damnit guys, how many of you have been living in caves? Is it surprising that the majority of people outside of the UNited States dont like Bush?
The majority of Urband Centres here in the U.S. dont like Bush.
Just look here in NYC, you see anti-bush slogans all over.
Different strokes for different folks.

:| :| :| :| :|

? ? ? ? ?

[NcDeuce]

http://www.capmag.com/images1z2345x/comics/cf/ForAndAgainst-X.gif

http://home.earthlink.net/%7Ejunk0mai1/KerrysGang.jpg

Good pics guys! rofl

Kerry sure does know how to tapdance. My Poli. Sci. professor even admits Kerry is tapdancing for his life on some of the foreign policy issues and he's a die-hard Democrat!

[Ratamacue]

The people who do not like Bush are the fruity liberals, the communists, and the terrorists.


With enemies like that, Bush is definately going to get my vote.

Wow, you're absolutely brilliant. I think you pretty much just generalized about 50% of the American populace as either fruity, communist, or terrorists. This here is what geniuses are made of, folks.

[EvanL]

Well, New York's a liberal area. Maybe not so much upstate, but NYC and Long Island are without a doubt.

NYC is very liberal, but I think Bush has a good chance of winning alot of votes there. The way that the extreme Left has been demanding that we adopt appeasement policies with the terrorists while at the same time they are bashing Israel is going to drive alot of the traditionally liberal vote in NYC over to the GOP this election.

I think alot of New Yorkers can look over at the Manhatten skyline and realise that it is better we fight the terrorists in the middle east than to fight them here in the states.

You obviously dont know New Yorkers.
BUsh has a chance of winning some votes here. But thjats a very small percentage of the population in this city. Its always been a democrat city and i think that for the next little while it will remain that way.
And New Yorkers dont need to look to where the towers were. Thats taking steps backwards. They want to take steps forward. They believe you can still combat terrorism without bush being in the office.
NYC has a very large minority population and the minorities in this city do not have a liking for bush.

[Quon Sen Hutt]

The people who do not like Bush are the fruity liberals, the communists, and the terrorists.


With enemies like that, Bush is definately going to get my vote.

Wow, you're absolutely brilliant. I think you pretty much just generalized about 50% of the American populace as either fruity, communist, or terrorists. This here is what geniuses are made of, folks.


I am surprised that you could not see it was a reply to the post about Bush not being liked in other countries as well as the urban areas here.

The urban areas are liberal, as in "gay rights", "animal rights" and other fruity causes of the Libs. Much of Europe is socialists, they are more truthfull about what they are than the "liberals" here at home. The Libs here at home would never dare call themselves socialists.

On foriegners, there are the communists like Fidel Castro and Kim Jong Il. They don't like Bush.

Then there are the terrorists, they don't like Bush. I can imagine what thoughts were going through Abu Abbas mind when he was dying in a jail cell. Then there are the many terrorists we killed and captured in Afghanistan and Iraq.

Yup, I think Bush is doing a great job. Also, you are certainly a dim bulb to think that I called 50% of the American people "terrorists and communists". It is more like 30% that are fruity liberal wackjobs. The rest of the American population have their sanity intact.

Anyway, you can measure a man by his enemies and we can tell that Bush is really a good guy by looking at the riffraff that oppose him.

[Ratamacue]

:cantbeli:

[seruriermarshal]

The people who do not like Bush are the fruity liberals, the communists, and the terrorists.


With enemies like that, Bush is definately going to get my vote.

Wow, you're absolutely brilliant. I think you pretty much just generalized about 50% of the American populace as either fruity, communist, or terrorists. This here is what geniuses are made of, folks.


I am surprised that you could not see it was a reply to the post about Bush not being liked in other countries as well as the urban areas here.

The urban areas are liberal, as in "gay rights" and the other fruity causes of the Libs. Much of Europe is socialists, they are more open about what they are than the "liberals" here in the states.

Then there are the communists like Fidel Castro and Kim Jong Il. They don't like Bush.

Then there are the terrorists, they don't like Bush. I can imagine what thoughts were going through Abu Abbas mind when he was dying in a jail cell. Then there are the many terrorists we killed and captured in Afghanistan and Iraq.

Yup, I think Bush is doing a great job. Also, you are certainly a dim bulb to think that I called 50% of the American people "terrorists and communists". It is more like 30% that are fruity liberal wackjobs.

Sorry , I don't know , At last , we can win the war ?

[front]

Very briefly...

seruriermarshal quoted:

"Two days earlier Zapatero had blasted Aznar's alliance with the U.S., calling the Bush administration "the most reactionary American administration in recent times."

That is the truth. The Cheney-Rumsfeld administration is a statist reactionary government.

Vance wrote:

"*sigh* How can you let people do these terrible acts to you country and let them get away? It boggles the mind."

You mean, of course, that the Spanish people were supposed to re-elect Aznar's government as it had the best interests of the Spanish people at heart... mainly that the "war on terrorism" was the most important issue facing the Spanish people, Madrid bombings or not?

Spain is a democracy. You do not live in Spain and I hazard that you have no idea what the Spanish voter considered to be the most pressing issue in the recent elections. Whatever is was does not mean anything to you as you are not Spanish... nor do you live in Spain. However it is very important to realise that the majority of Spanish people rejected the Aznar government through democratic principles and with democratic procedures. In other words that people consider that their previous government made a grievous error and the people corrected it.

Long live Democracy.

George W. Bush wrote:

"bin Laden wants Kerry to win also."

Unfortunately your statement must be answered in light of your comment and your sad attempts at the "fool's comment". Your comments are meaningless, and your comedy is sad. You are simply an impostor and a moron. This is not the forum for you.

budanski wrote:

"Funny... North Korea's Kim Jong Il, supports Kerry, along with Al Jazeera, the mouthpiece of al Qaeda. Welcome to the club, Zapatero."

Al Jazeera is not the mouthpiece of Al Queda. I support a change in government of the US at the next election. Tell me budanski... am I a friend of Kerry and a supporter of Al Queda too?

Kilgor wrote:

"I bet every enemy of the United states wants kerry to get in."

Every enemy of the USA hates the "current" US administrations... no matter what the current flavour of the administration. What they hate is US foreign policy. Whether the leader is Bush or Kerry, Bush Sr. or Clinton makes is no matter. The sooner you realise that there is no difference between whatever candidate the elite in the USA puts up in front of the US people (and the world) the better.

Quansa Hut wrote:

"The people who do not like Bush are the fruity liberals, the communists, and the terrorists."

Thanks. Irony is always appreciated. :-)

cheers

front

[Quon Sen Hutt]

Sorry , I don't know , At last , we can win the war ?

Of course we will win the war. It will be a long, hard road of course. But we have fought greater enemies and won.

It is only the appeasers like Kerry that can win the war for the terrorists.

[SeanAshi]

Two days earlier Zapatero had blasted Aznar's alliance with the U.S., calling the Bush administration "the most reactionary American administration in recent times."
Zapatero ****ing Pussy! :fork:

[Quon Sen Hutt]

Front,

It was Al Qaida that owned Spain in this election.

Americans would not run from a fight like the Spanish. That is why Kerry will lose in November.

[M1A2U2]

Evanlloyd you could not be more wrong about New Yorkers. Please dont ever speak on behalf of me again. first of all they have a reublican mayor for the love of God
where are you coming from. i hate people who just ramble on and try to speak for the majority. All nyers still remember the towers. And we will move forward. forward in a direction to make sure it never happens again. Youre from canada? please dont speak for me ever again

[seruriermarshal]

"Two days earlier Zapatero had blasted Aznar's alliance with the U.S., calling the Bush administration "the most reactionary American administration in recent times."

Is U.S.A. more dangerous than Al Qaida ? ? ? ? ?
And f**k the Al Qaida !

[Ratamacue]

Evanlloyd you could not be more wrong about New Yorkers. Please dont ever speak on behalf of me again. first of all they have a reublican mayor for the love of God
where are you coming from. i hate people who just ramble on and try to speak for the majority. All nyers still remember the towers. And we will move forward. forward in a direction to make sure it never happens again. Youre from canada? please dont speak for me ever again

I don't remember whether he still does, but Evan lived in New York for a decent amount of time. I'm a New Yorker bro, and I can tell you that the vast majority of the New York Metropolitan area is liberal. It's a fact. Don't deny it; telling yourself otherwise won't make your dreams come true.

[Quon Sen Hutt]

http://www.gambits.com/politics/kerry--arafat.jpg


That kind of says it all... :lol:

[seruriermarshal]

http://www.gambits.com/politics/kerry--arafat.jpg


That kind of says it all... :lol:


HeHe............ rofl

[front]

said Quonsa Hut:

"It was Al Qaida that owned Spain in this election."

Rubbish. Absolute nonsense on the highest scale. I suggest that you stop reading US media and have a look at the Spanish press over the last 24 months. I also suggest that you consider the fact that the Aznar goverment for some perverse reason denied that democracy exists and ignored the fact that 90% of the Spanish people did not support a war on Iraq. I also suggest to you that you take on board the fact, in light of your comment, that MAYBE... just MAYBE there is truth in the statement that when the people decide how their leaders should govern... then the government should do as the people say.

Aznar lost because he went against the people. They said no. He's out.

"Americans would not run from a fight like the Spanish."

The Spanish people have never ran from a fight. Ever. How dare you insult their democracy. Hehehe... the Spanish and other Europeans on this board who know Spanish history are laughing at you.

"That is why Kerry will lose in November."

Nonsense.

cheers

front

[Quon Sen Hutt]

Spain was a major victory for Al Qaida.

The whole Spanish nation had punked out after being bitch slapped. Like a weak faggot in prison.

[front]

Honset Hut continues:

"Spain was a major victory for Al Qaida."

NO. It was not. And AGAIN I suggest that when people like yourself keep trying to twist the facts that you are in fact helping ignorance. How dare you try to figure, through US media, what the Spanish people decided in this election.

Your are simply attempting to render their democratic process into a US-centric "war against terrorism" and that it is bankrupt in the face of Spanish democracy.

They are not American. They made their OWN democratic choices in light of their history with their government and their own experiences after last weekends atrocity.

Your comment is... facile.

"The whole Spanish nation had punked out after being bitch slapped."

Your comment is beyond ignorant... some would say racist.

And we waste our time reading your posts.

front

[Quon Sen Hutt]

You just said it was democratic, so that proves my point that the majority of Spanish people choosing to cut and run from the Islamic terrorists after being hit.

Spain was just owned by Al Qaida who compounded the insult by using Moors for their terrorist agents.

You are right about how they are not Americans. We Americans do not run from an enemy after being attacked.

We certainly proved it after Japanese attack on Pearl Harbor back in 7 Dec 1941 and the Islamic terrorist attacks on the WTC and the Pentagon on 11 Sept 2001. When an enemy hits US, we go total war on that enemy until they capitulate or are completely destroyed.

[seruriermarshal]

Honset Hut continues:

"Spain was a major victory for Al Qaida."

NO. It was not. And AGAIN I suggest that when people like yourself keep trying to twist the facts that you are in fact helping ignorance. How dare you try to figure, through US media, what the Spanish people decided in this election.

Your are simply attempting to render their democratic process into a US-centric "war against terrorism" and that it is bankrupt in the face of Spanish democracy.

They are not American. They made their OWN democratic choices in light of their history with their government and their own experiences after last weekends atrocity.

Your comment is... facile.

"The whole Spanish nation had punked out after being bitch slapped."

Your comment is beyond ignorant... some would say racist.

And we waste our time reading your posts.

front

We need spain help , And now , Spain need our help . Now we only hope Spain brave , the war .

[FallenAngel]

Honset Hut continues:

"Spain was a major victory for Al Qaida."

NO. It was not. And AGAIN I suggest that when people like yourself keep trying to twist the facts that you are in fact helping ignorance. How dare you try to figure, through US media, what the Spanish people decided in this election.

Your are simply attempting to render their democratic process into a US-centric "war against terrorism" and that it is bankrupt in the face of Spanish democracy.

They are not American. They made their OWN democratic choices in light of their history with their government and their own experiences after last weekends atrocity.

Your comment is... facile.

"The whole Spanish nation had punked out after being bitch slapped."

Your comment is beyond ignorant... some would say racist.

And we waste our time reading your posts.

front

You have to admit though, even after the worst terrorist attacks in their entire history, the Spanish populace voted for a socialist party who made it's non-conflicational stance very clear. Yes, the Spanish people decided their election, but what kind of people do the Spanish look like when they elect a government who's sworn not to fight back? They look weak, intimidated and submissive when it comes to terrorism.

If that's racism to you....tough. It's a just observation.

[Mr Gently Benevolent]

The way that the extreme Left has been demanding that we adopt appeasement policies with the terrorists while at the same time they are bashing Israel is going to drive alot of the traditionally liberal vote in NYC over to the GOP this election.
The current US administration is still all touchy feely with the Saudi's if that aint appeasement then what is. :lol:

[front]

FallenAngel posted on our militaryphotos.net board

"Yes, the Spanish people decided their election, but what kind of people do the Spanish look like when they elect a government who's sworn not to fight back? They look weak, intimidated and submissive when it comes to terrorism. "

I've just about heard it all. :-(

cheers

front

[cut]

just to even the balance a bit

http://www.2dtv.co.uk/picture/bush.jpg

[seruriermarshal]

Now , I know , why we lose these war , because terrorists have more allies , because we believe freedom ...... And if we die , then we must still open our eyes , watch the terrorists enslave the whole world , It's really ! Maybe we will die , but we fight .

[cut]

Now , I know , why we lose these war , because terrorists have more allies , because we believe freedom ...... And if we die , then we must still open our eyes , watch the terrorists enslave the whole world , It's really ! Maybe we will die , but we fight .

they have always had lots of support even after 9/11, you expect the situation to get better after OIF?

[seruriermarshal]

Now , I know , why we lose these war , because terrorists have more allies , because we believe freedom ...... And if we die , then we must still open our eyes , watch the terrorists enslave the whole world , It's really ! Maybe we will die , but we fight .

they have always had lots of support even after 9/11, you expect the situation to get better after OIF?

Really ? some people support we attack terrorists , My friend , If terrorists attack them , they still support we ? I so sad , Perhaps I will join Islam tomorrow, because my life security ?

[Royal]

You have to admit though, even after the worst terrorist attacks in their entire history, the Spanish populace voted for a socialist party who made it's non-conflicational stance very clear.

Guernica?

When will you ignorant rednecks get it into your thick skulls that Senor Zapatero and his party are simply doing what the people of Spain want and withdrawing their support from the invasion of Iraq - an action that had sweet f**k all to do with Al Qaida or GWOT.

They are maintaining their presence in the 'stan - operations that are conducted against the rump of the Taleban and Al Qaida. The removal of Sadaam and the Ba'athists is precisely what has allowed the Islamic extremists to operate and prosper in Iraq.

[sierraone]

When will you ignorant rednecks get it into your thick skulls that Senor Zapatero and his party are simply doing what the people of Spain want and withdrawing their support from the invasion of Iraq - an action that had sweet f**k all to do with Al Qaida or GWOT.


I am dissappointed in you Royal. I thought you would have more intelligence. Your comment is entirely shortsighted, ignorant and put in a very common basic way. Arguments should be stated as a matter of fact, not in language like that and in a very patronizing and insulting way. Anyway on with the argument.

For sure Zapatero didn't say anything new after he was elected. Your Al Qaeda connection is this:

a. He was behind the polls before the attacks. The swing was influenced by the bombings.

b. Al Qaeda will anyway perceive it as a victory. They will maintain that it made Spain cower and withdraw the troops as a direct result of the attacks and overlook the fact that Zapatero's agenda included that anyway. Now the door is open to further attacks in Europe because in their eyes it produces results.

[Royal]

I am dissappointed in you Royal. I thought you would have more intelligence. Your comment is entirely shortsighted, ignorant and put in a very common basic way. Arguments should be stated as a matter of fact, not in language like that and in a very patronizing and insulting way. Anyway on with the argument.

For sure Zapatero didn't say anything new after he was elected. Your Al Qaeda connection is this:

a. He was behind the polls before the attacks. The swing was influenced by the bombings.

b. Al Qaeda will anyway perceive it as a victory. They will maintain that it made Spain cower and withdraw the troops as a direct result of the attacks and overlook the fact that Zapatero's agenda included that anyway. Now the door is open to further attacks in Europe because in their eyes it produces results.

Zapatero was behind (albeit slightly) before the attacks, and yes, they swug the result - but only because they reinforced what the majority of Spanish people wanted to do anyway.

Of course Al Qaida we perceive it as a victory. To them it was, but your argument that the Spanish actions will open the door to further attacks is facile - the attacks will come whether in London at Heathrow or on the tube, next year in the UK elections or this summer in your country at the Olympics.

Al Qaida will continue to strike at 'the crusaders' until either they or we are wiped out (unlikely) or life for people improves to the extent that they do not think it worth fighting and loosing their comforts.

[sierraone]

Zapatero was behind (albeit slightly) before the attacks, and yes, they swug the result - but only because they reinforced what the majority of Spanish people wanted to do anyway.

Of course Al Qaida we perceive it as a victory. To them it was, but your argument that the Spanish actions will open the door to further attacks is facile - the attacks will come whether in London at Heathrow or on the tube, next year in the UK elections or this summer in your country at the Olympics.

Al Qaida will continue to strike at 'the crusaders' until either they or we are wiped out (unlikely) or life for people improves to the extent that they do not think it worth fighting and loosing their comforts.

I am glad for your post. I am also glad that you agree that the attacks eventually swung the vote.

If you reversed it and hypothetically Aznar won, wouldn't that prove that terrorism won't defeat us and we are steadfast etc.? It might not prevent further attacks on the west but certainly it would raise morale.

Worst thing about Al Qaeda victory is that it will manage to recruit more sympathisers by demonstrating now that these atrocities work.

I know London will be attacked and I know Athens will be attacked. As a matter of fact Greece has played no role as a country in Iraq and has only peacekeeping troops in Afghanistan. The unfortunate thing is that we happen to host the Olympics-big juicy target, and as Greece being the cradle of western civilisation (sorry for the patriotism..!) it's also a symbolic target that these islamics love. Furthermore CIA, the Israelis and NATO is helping with the security which in the eyes of many it makes us a target now.

The opinion here is divided with the question: 'Better to be a well protected target or not a target at all?' Crucial question as a target can't ever be well protected and at the same time there is no thing as a non-Target to Al Qaeda unless you are in outer Mongolia..As usual the pinkies went with better not be a target, and the true-blues with lets arm ourselves to the teeth and get help from wherever we can.

PS I know the thread has gone off the Zapatero/Kerry connection but there are so many topics now about this might as well carry it on here... :(

[Royal]

If you reversed it and hypothetically Aznar won, wouldn't that prove that terrorism won't defeat us and we are steadfast etc.? It might not prevent further attacks on the west but certainly it would raise morale.

No. Because there is no proof that terrorism won't beat us. Our society is weak, bloated and lazy. The fact that we have capitulated to terrorism in Northern Ireland because we have no stomach for the fight is but one example. As I've already said, the attacks will continue (by both sides) until one side tires of the fight. I also don't believe it would raise morale - people may support a party even though they fundamentally disagree with one aspect of it's policies, because they agree with the rest - that does not mean they are happy and supportive.

[sierraone]

If you reversed it and hypothetically Aznar won, wouldn't that prove that terrorism won't defeat us and we are steadfast etc.? It might not prevent further attacks on the west but certainly it would raise morale.

No. Because there is no proof that terrorism won't beat us. Our society is weak, bloated and lazy. The fact that we have capitulated to terrorism in Northern Ireland because we have no stomach for the fight is but one example. As I've already said, the attacks will continue (by both sides) until one side tires of the fight. I also don't believe it would raise morale - people may support a party even though they fundamentally disagree with one aspect of it's policies, because they agree with the rest - that does not mean they are happy and supportive.

Exactly Royal! One shining example of not capitulating to terrorism would be set by the Spanish people and the opportunity was missed. They are testing us and they are winning. I hope the British, French or us or whoever is next won't capitulate. Although I don't quite understand the second part of your argument I will try to answer. Aznar's party was ahead with 43% and Zapatero with 37%, despite 90% of the population being against the war. That means they supported the party but disagreed with one of it's policies. That one policy though caused in their eyes the bombing. So they forgot about the general approval and focused on the Iraq/terrorism issue. That makes it even more a capitulation to terrorism than if Aznar was behind in the polls.

I think we are saying the same thing but give it different meaning. Basically you are telling me that an Aznar victory despite the bombings wouldn't raise morale against terrorism?

[BlackRain]

http://cagle.slate.msn.com/working/040316/lester.gif

[Argyll]

Spain was a major victory for Al Qaida.

The whole Spanish nation had punked out after being bitch slapped. Like a weak faggot in prison.



You mean just like Clinton pulled the trrops from Somalia for the same reasons?

I find your whole attitude disgusting,you bleat on and on about democracy,but when the people of Spain exercised their democratic rights,you turn it into sounding like an act of betrayal to the USA.

get this into your thick skull 80% of the Spanish voting population DID NOT WANT TO GO TO WAR IN IRAQ,but Aznar .like Tony Blair turned democracy into a dictatorship,by overruling the majority voice, to the voice of a handfull of rectums,by sending their respective countries to a war,that the people did not want!.........and this is why he lost the vote,the attacks just gave the voters more reslove to get rid of Aznar!

[Vance]

Spain was a major victory for Al Qaida.

The whole Spanish nation had punked out after being bitch slapped. Like a weak faggot in prison.



You mean just like Clinton pulled the trrops from Somalia for the same reasons?

I find your whole attitude disgusting,you bleat on and on about democracy,but when the people of Spain exercised their democratic rights,you turn it into sounding like an act of betrayal to the USA.

get this into your thick skull 80% of the Spanish voting population DID NOT WANT TO GO TO WAR IN IRAQ,but Aznar .like Tony Blair turned democracy into a dictatorship,by overruling the majority voice, to the voice of a handfull of rectums,by sending their respective countries to a war,that the people did not want!.........and this is why he lost the vote,the attacks just gave the voters more reslove to get rid of Aznar!
Wasn't the US amlost half and half about the war in Iraq this same time last year? But we went, and now we're there, and we are sure as hell going to finish the job. Pulling out suddenly would be considered weak by the whole world.

[Argyll]

Yeah I agree Vance,but to be quite honest,withdrawing what 1500 troops ain't really going to have that much of an impact militarily,it's more a political statement than anything else,to me it looks like Zapato is just letting the other coalition countries,he's his own man,and does not need influenced by the other 2 big boys!! ;)

At the moment it's only talk,a lot can happen between now and the end of June,I really cannot see why some folks are really getting upset about this,and as usual it's coming from the student lobby type,not the military types......I feel for the Guys out there doing their bit,as they want to stay,it is not for us Non Spanish members to judge another countries democraticaly elected leaders policies is it ;)

[MARINO]

We have pissed in our pants :( waht a ****, sorry for Poland, now you are the only country to opposse France and Germany, :(

[Argyll]

We have pissed in our pants :( waht a ****, sorry for Poland, now you are the only country to opposse France and Germany, :(

Oppose them in what?It's not like they're planning some kind of Invasion is it?.........The way you've gone on about this,and the name calling of your fellow countrymen,it's like the end of the world.........AQ struck at your capital,and the Government Lost the elections,why are you not asking stuff like why did Aznar's Government not take heed and actions of the warnings 4 weeks ago?
What Anti terror measures were taken to try and prevent this attack?

[MARINO]

in USA after 11/9 Americans were all with their governement and here they accused the goverment of being murderers. There were many mesures to prevent attcks cause ETA wanted to attack during elections.
We were oppossed to F and G with the european constitution, we were with Poland and now we have accepted waht f and g wanted ,a nd poland is now alone.

[Truthsayer]

Spain was a major victory for Al Qaida.

The whole Spanish nation had punked out after being bitch slapped. Like a weak faggot in prison.

With retoric like this from the extreme-right, no wonder people are getting sick with you and want 'anyone else' in office?

[Argyll]

in USA after 11/9 Americans were all with their governement and here they accused the goverment of being murderers. There were many mesures to prevent attcks cause ETA wanted to attack during elections.
We were oppossed to F and G with the european constitution, we were with Poland and now we have accepted waht f and g wanted ,a nd poland is now alone.


Perhaps you concentrated too much on ETA,and let AQ slip through the net?

[sierraone]

A terrorist attack can only be prevented during the planning and preparation phase. By the time the bombs or the bombers are in place it is too late. You have to be very lucky to prevent it then. Suicide bombers can walk on to a train unchecked.

The only thing marshalls on the trains can do is get killed first. If Spanish were preparing for an ETA attack they would have been concentrating on ETA personalities they knew. These Morrocans/North Africans probably had no record whatsoever. Also if explosive shipments have gone missing anywhere in Europe you have to trace them to the end user pretty asap before they explode. Really really difficult. They could have come from anywhere and gone to anywhere.

In the Olympics they are going to have airport style detectors at the stadia away from concentrations of the public so to minimise casualties. Helicopters will be hovering above 24/7 and overt and covert security everywhere. Heck of an atmosphere for the games eh?

http://www.fr-d-serfes.org/images/evgeny1.jpg

[Sabre]

Holy ****.

Quon Sen Hutt, I hope I did not catch any of your stupidity while I was living in Arizona.

I'm not even going to comment on your posts.


Terrorists are sneaky bastards. They do the worst they can at the times that cause the greatest impact. Timing the bombing to the general election was a ploy to win a coup against the Spanish democratic process. If the people had voted for Aznar out of spite, what would that have achieved? They would have cut off their nose to spite their face. Aznar jumped on the Iraq War waggon just like Tony Blair did. Both leaders flew in the face of public opinion in doing so, just to stay on side with Bush.

As it happens, the Spanish people have got a politician in power who will do what they want him to do. Suddenly this is not the aim of democratic nation, according to the right-wing pro-Bush lobby. There is no good way of coming out of an attack on your own soil that leaves 200 civillians dead, is there? The way to combat these terrorists is to allow normal, civillian life (including elections) to run as they had before, whilst searching for and eliminating terrorist cells and their support networks.

This is what Spain is doing. They are still in Afghanistan, where the majority of the 'accessable' terrorists are, and the only real place you can directly target terrorists militarily. (and this is happening; was talking to some guys from 23 about a contact they had out there, 3000 rounds were spent by a small patrol in the one engagement, several enemy killed).

Please don't try and generalise the actions/beleifs of an entire nation and condemn them for it. In-fighting between nations targeted by terrorism is just what the terrorists want. It weakens alliances and causes nations to fail to focus on the real threats. Yes the terrorists would love the election result, but I'm sure they also loved the squabble over and the eventual invasion of Iraq. More fuel for their fire so to speak.

[Kellhound]

And you think Azanar in peson would have captured every AlQaeda cell in Europe by himself if he had won the elections????

You're crazy if you think any government in this country, after many more decades than most of suffering terrorism, will stop pursuing them wathever their ideology only because a change in government.
Foreign mass media still says ETA terrorists and murderers are "separatists", and you still say we are chickening out because we don't think like you in some respects? I thought freedom of speech and ideas worked both ways. Are you trying to tell me spanish people can't vote the party they want but you can?

Our police forces, even Autonomic polices, will continue their duty no matter the odds. Our Army will stay deployed where it is now, except maybe Iraq, an impopular and not very liked war outside Bush diehard fans.
If they tell my unit "There are terrorist, go for them" we won't stop wondering what the press would say about it.

If you think things like this can be solved by B52 carpet-bombings, then wake up:
Terrorists don't behave like armies, they don't stand together away from civilians in their own country. Are you going to bomb any of your country's cities just in case there is a terrorist there? How you tell one from an innocent if he's not toting an AK and a bunch of explosives?

Anything we do will be interpreted by terrorists the way they want. If we pull out, we are weak and deserve more killings, but if we stay they have te right to keep pounding us.

By the way, maximum AlQaeda head in Spain (already in prison long before bombings) claim it wasn't them.
It seems clear to police forces it was the same moroccan group responsible for Casablanca bombings. Where they really from AQ?
If you nail an AQ cell, that has no effect on others. They don't know enough to put other cells in danger if they are captured.
So tell me, smart-guys-owners-of-all-terrorist-knowledge:

how can you tell one islamic terrorist pertaining to AQ from one islamic terrorist who SAYS pertaining to AQ.

[EvanL]

Evanlloyd you could not be more wrong about New Yorkers. Please dont ever speak on behalf of me again. first of all they have a reublican mayor for the love of God
where are you coming from. i hate people who just ramble on and try to speak for the majority. All nyers still remember the towers. And we will move forward. forward in a direction to make sure it never happens again. Youre from canada? please dont speak for me ever again
Sorry buddy, but i live in NYC. I wasnt aware that you did as well? I have the right to discuss these things because i live in them every day. New York is a liberal city and will probablyt be for years to come. DOnt "YOU" speak on behalf of me.
And you obviously didnt read my post properly. When i said new yorkers dont want to take a step backwards it didnt mean they wanted to forget about sept11th, it means they want to move forward and look to brighter things.

[FallenAngel]

Spain was a major victory for Al Qaida.

The whole Spanish nation had punked out after being bitch slapped. Like a weak faggot in prison.

With retoric like this from the extreme-right, no wonder people are getting sick with you and want 'anyone else' in office?

It's spelled "rhetoric". And while he does come off as an extreme conservative, he does have a point. The terrorist attacks swung the vote in Spain which allowed an appeaser to come to power. Strike this in contrast to, say, Israel who elect hard-liners to eliminate terrorists. It's a victory for the terrorists, pure and simple.

[Truthsayer]

I'm sorry I forgot the silent 'h'. English is not the native language where I live.

[tony6]

Yeah-lack of Spain in the constitution debate is a real loss...
Anyway-we will have to find a way to handle that on our own.

[Kellhound]

Why are you talking of appeasement?
http://www.abc.es/abc/laterales/otro_contenido/iconos_para_destacados_home_abajo/LazoNegro1.gif

[mrfloppy]

Fallenangel wrote:
...Strike this in contrast to, say, Israel who elect hard-liners to eliminate terrorists.

And now? Did it help? Has terrorism stopped in Israel? Not even a bit!
No matter who was in power in Israel recently, all governments had a hard time with those suicide bombers.

tony6 wrote:
...Anyway-we will have to find a way to handle that on our own

LOL! Why don't you start handling your economical problems first. Then start doing something about the logistical and technical problems of your troops in Iraq. Then you can act the big shot in Europe...

Who calls Zapatero an appeaser, forgets that the war on Iraq was not a war on terror. So his decision has nothing to do with the war on terrorism, but with the will of the spanish majority not to support Mr. Bush's questionable politics.

[Quon Sen Hutt]

The election just goes to show how the Spanish people have become submissive wimps.

Weak! Weak! Weak!

They "punked out" after getting hit.

[Mr Gently Benevolent]

The election just goes to show how the Spanish people have become submissive wimps.

Weak! Weak! Weak!

They "punked out" after getting hit.Mmm............deep.

[Quon Sen Hutt]

When will you ignorant rednecks get it into your thick skulls that Senor Zapatero and his party are simply doing what the people of Spain want and withdrawing their support from the invasion of Iraq - an action that had sweet f**k all to do with Al Qaida or GWOT.

They are maintaining their presence in the 'stan - operations that are conducted against the rump of the Taleban and Al Qaida. The removal of Sadaam and the Ba'athists is precisely what has allowed the Islamic extremists to operate and prosper in Iraq.

The Spanish people voted for appeasement and accomidation with the terrorists that just attacked them. They are weak because they have no courage. They 'punked out' on a world stage.

Saddam supported terrorists. Abu Abbas was captured in Baghdad and Saddam was supporting Hamas in its campaign of using suicide bombers in Israel.

I should also point out that Al Qaida made known its intention to punish Spain for supporting the USA in Iraq. They did exactly that, so the stupid and most of all weak liberal-faggots voted for socialists to adopt policies of appeasement and accomidation with the terrorists.

[Mr Gently Benevolent]

Your a really tolerant guy Quon Sen Hutt with a place in your heart for everyone I want to be just like you when I grow up.

[Truthsayer]

He is following the 12 steps of enforcing lies upon the people anyway.

It's like he was tought by Goering and Hitler in person...

[Quon Sen Hutt]

Tolerant?

Your idea of tolerance must be to accept rape and degradation. It must be some kind of fetish for you submissive types.

[Truthsayer]

Your idea of tolerant is accepting that the brother of the woman you raped is angry with you.

And then you kill her brother just in case.

[Quon Sen Hutt]

Oho, now it come out that this "truthsayer" is on the side of the terrorists.

This person thinks of Saddam Hussien and Abu Abbas as the good guys.

[Mr Gently Benevolent]

Your idea of tolerant is accepting that the brother of the woman you raped is angry with you.

And then you kill her brother just in case.Pure class so much quality in so few words, I salute you Truthsayer. :)

[Quon Sen Hutt]

And you must think of Saddam Hussien as the victim.

[Mr Gently Benevolent]

Tolerant?

Your idea of tolerance must be to accept rape and degradation. It must be some kind of fetish for you submissive types.I am not so fond of strapons but a good beating does not go wrong now and again. :P

[IDFM203]

I will admit that I did not read this whole thread and I know a lot of it has noting to do with this,…however this one statement here is patently false.


Fallenangel wrote:
...Strike this in contrast to, say, Israel who elect hard-liners to eliminate terrorists.

And now? Did it help? Has terrorism stopped in Israel? Not even a bit!

:what? :roll: That is completely false, while yes homicide bombers are still a problem and no matter what, they will always be a problem, the fact is that yes the hard liners did help, for there has been a BIG difference from before late 2002 when Israel went back in to before, for before, there was a homicide bombing and shooting attack against Israeli civilians almost daily and for sure weekly, now it has dropped over 50 percent to where it is now a monthly occurrence and shootings against Israeli civilians and cars are a even more infrequent occurrence.

Politics aside (meaning why and what it does. which leads to big debates as we have in other threads), your statement is factually false as the events on the ground prove.

Understand like I have made clear in other posts, that I don’t think that this is a 100 percent solution and there will always be homicide bombers, though we did limit it significantly and all this was done by no choice in the face of what WAS constant homicide bombings on a almost daily and weekly basis and it was done in the absence of any true peace on there other side.

Last note on Israeli hard liners, remember it was an Israeli dove (barak ) that got clobbered in the elections due to HIS dovish offers and policies NOT working at all and in fact the violence against Israelis were at a all time high!! and as such Israel was forced to elect a more hard liner and it has worked to LIMIT their attacks for the only option against Islamic terrorism is to fight it and not to surrender to its demands or to even give that impression.

Anways carry on with the spain and kerry conversation ;)............

Shalom :D

[Argyll]

Hmmm call me suspicious but I do believe that who we have here is none other than our Nemesis Six Gun Shooter...........in the guise of Quon Sen Hutt

[Mr Gently Benevolent]

Yep same rhetoric same tone.

[Argyll]

The election just goes to show how the Spanish people have become submissive wimps.

Weak! Weak! Weak!

They "punked out" after getting hit.

Would this be the same Political decision making that say caused the USA to pull out of Veitnam and Somalia?...............this question is solely directed at Quon Sett Hutt

[Quon Sen Hutt]

It was Bill Clinton that pulled out of Somalia. That was poor leadership due to the baby boomers electing a damn hippie.

In Vietnam, the government would not allow the generals to win. This precedent was set when a liberal president named Harry Truman pulled General Douglas MacArthur out of Korea.

If the politicians had given General Douglas MacArthur the green light. Then the Chairman Mao and Ho Chi Mihn would have been captured or killed back in the 1950's.

[Argyll]

It was Bill Clinton that pulled out of Somalia. That was poor leadership due to the baby boomers electing a damn hippie.

In Vietnam, the government would not allow the generals to win. This precedent was set when a liberal president named Harry Truman pulled General Douglas MacArthur out of Korea.

If the politicians had given General Douglas MacArthur the green light. Then the Chairman Mao and Ho Chi Mihn would have been captured or killed back in the 1950's.


But it was due to Political reasons on both accounts .............yes?

Same Political reasons,and democratic process the Spanish people have exercised?

[Kellhound]

If i took this guy seriously, i'll have to find him, get to were he is, and take him out of mankind gene pool.
Just in case, because i know a couple gals with a similar mindset... But to the left.
:lol:

[Quon Sen Hutt]

Not the same.

Truman was in office before the Korean war. Being CIC gave him alot of power over how we fought the war.

Clinton was elected in 1992, the "year of the woman" in that his charisma and liberal politics attracted alot of the women's votes. That is how we got a hippie in the white house.
This was also the time that the baby boom generation came to prominance in politics. Up to then, our presidents had been of the WWII generation.

[Argyll]

So if it was not the same then what you're saying is that it was done for a Military reason then?

[11F5S]

Well, New York's a liberal area. Maybe not so much upstate, but NYC and Long Island are without a doubt.

NYC is very liberal, but I think Bush has a good chance of winning most of the votes there. The way that the extreme Left has been demanding that we adopt appeasement policies with the terrorists while at the same time they are bashing Israel is going to drive alot of the traditionally liberal vote in NYC over to the GOP this election.

Another factor is that New Yorkers can look up at the Manhatten skyline and realise that it is better we fight the terrorists over there rather than over here.

Do you honestly think that most New Yorkers believe that Bush's war in Iraq is fighting terroists.??

[11F5S]

Hmmm call me suspicious but I do believe that who we have here is none other than our Nemesis Six Gun Shooter...........in the guise of Quon Sen Hutt

Argyll,

I was thinking the same thing.....It appears that CapGun Symphony has moved into a quonset hut. Shades of his swab jockey past.

[Argyll]

Hmmm call me suspicious but I do believe that who we have here is none other than our Nemesis Six Gun Shooter...........in the guise of Quon Sen Hutt

Argyll,

I was thinking the same thing.....It appears that CapGun Symphony has moved into a quonset hut. Shades of his swab jockey past.

Got to give the man his due,he's like the Scarlet Pimpernel ;)

[Quon Sen Hutt]

Same Political reasons,and democratic process the Spanish people have exercised?

Not at all the same.

The Spanish people, in fair elections, chose policies of appeasement and accomidation with the terrorists that attacked them.
That is punking out on a national level.

Now we do have alot of hippies in some of the Coastal cities, but they are not real Americans. You will see this punk Kerry go down at the polls in November.

[Mr Gently Benevolent]

Now we do have alot of hippies in some of the Coastal cities, but they are not real Americans.So whats your definition of a real American is it decided by their politics.

[Argyll]

Same Political reasons,and democratic process the Spanish people have exercised?

Not at all the same.

The Spanish people, in fair elections, chose policies of appeasement and accomidation with the terrorists that attacked them.
That is punking out on a national level.

Now we do have alot of hippies in some of the Coastal cities, but they are not real Americans. You will see this punk Kerry go down at the polls in November.

Define a real American............someone who wears long white Robes with a pillow case over his head?

[11F5S]

Now we do have alot of hippies in some of the Coastal cities, but they are not real Americans. You will see this punk Kerry go down at the polls in November.

I live in a coastal city, I been hip, but never been a hippie....I'm as American as apple pie, and I hope the lone ranger in Our White House goes down in the polls come November.

[Haiw]

Same Political reasons,and democratic process the Spanish people have exercised?

Not at all the same.

The Spanish people, in fair elections, chose policies of appeasement and accomidation with the terrorists that attacked them.
That is punking out on a national level.

Now we do have alot of hippies in some of the Coastal cities, but they are not real Americans. You will see this punk Kerry go down at the polls in November.
You get the honorary... BULLCRAP-award.

First, the Spanish people didn't choose policies of appeasement and accomidation, what they pretty much did was punish Aznar for not listening to his people and lieing. Besides, Spain would propably stay in Iraq under UN-flag (oooh wait you're allergic to UN :roll: ).

I won't even go into the last part. :roll:

[EvanL]

Same Political reasons,and democratic process the Spanish people have exercised?

Not at all the same.

The Spanish people, in fair elections, chose policies of appeasement and accomidation with the terrorists that attacked them.
That is punking out on a national level.

Now we do have alot of hippies in some of the Coastal cities, but they are not real Americans. You will see this punk Kerry go down at the polls in November.So you live in a state with a coast line? Last time i checked arizona didnt have a coast.

[IsdatU]

What is wrong with your reading comprehension? He speaks of the continental USA when he mentions the coasts.

[SeanAshi]

I get so damn pissed off when I read this thread :fork: I'm gonna go jump in my swimming pool and cool off....

[YankeeDeVallecas]

Check this out....

http://www.elmundo.es/elmundo/2004/03/17/internacional/1079556103.html

For those that don't read Castellano....
"Kerry asks Zapetero to 'reconsider his decision' to pull troops out of Iraq"

This should get good. Wouldn't it be something if Kerry gets his liberal panties in a wad over this too? :lol:

[Lobo]

I'm getting sick of that looser teenager trying to get the attention nobody pays to him in real life. But in case someone missed it... Here you have my explanation on last Sunday elections in Spain.
-----------------------------------------------------------------

Keep it on! Keep it on, please!

It's really educative to read all these well informed opinions about Spain and the political turmoil that followed the terrorist attack. It's great to find so much knowledge about a country no one here lives in and no one knows (excepting the Spaniards, of course). Just happens Spain is the country I was born and I grew up, the country whose newspapers I read and Madrid the city I'm living in.

So it's my time for

:cantbeli:

and

:slap:

then

:fork:

not forget

:backhand:

and specially

:bash:

One week before, everyone took for granted that the Popular Party (conservative) would win the elections, but without enough seats in the Parliament to make his candidate president of government. Then we have the Socialist Party (socialdemocrat) and his candidate playing the Mr Nice role, reminding us the reasons to not vote the Popular Party but without giving a clear idea about why we should vote him. Among his many promises was bringing back the troops from Irak.

March 11th

7:39 A chain of explosions rocks four commuter trains in South East Madrid. Each of us think about ETA. I'm sure millions thought "¡Hijos de puta!" at the same time.

11:30 A van, pointed by a witness as suspicious, is found with
-An audio tape with Koran's verses in Arabic
-Some detonators of a different kind of the usually employed by ETA
-An empty cartridge of Explosivos Río Tinto "Goma 2 ECO", an explosive material of a different kind of the usually employed by ETA

13:30 Interior Minister Acebes talks with the media and blames ETA and says that blaming other ones is an attempt to make people get confused and it's a political manoeuvre.

He said exactly:

Quote:
"El gobierno no tiene ninguna duda que ETa está detrás de los atentados. Resulta intolerable cualquier tipo de intoxicación que vaya dirigida por parte de miserables, a desviar el objetivo y los responsables de este drama y esta tragedia".

The goverment called on Thursday for a big demostration the following day in Madrid to support the victims, the Constitution and against terrorism. Take note it didn't call to support democracy, but Constitution. Time ago the president of Basque Country launched a proposal to become a "free associated state" as Puerto Rico, that goes far beyond the degree of self-goverment that the Constitution gives to regional goverments.

The demostration took place on Friday evening. Before that time ETA had denied its relation with the killings (they are terrorist, why we should believe them?) and Al Qaeda took responsability in a letter to London based "Al Quds Al Arabiya" newspaper (the letter was sent by a groop who took responsability for the black out last summer in North America).

More reasons to not believe the ETA involvement was the fact that placing 13 backpacks in 4 trains involved an ammount of people that ETA wasn't able to sneak into Madrid. All its last attempts to make terrorist attacks had ended as a failure. The only terrorists ETA could enroll last Christmas were a bunch of crybabies who were given a 45 minute lesson about how to set some bombs that didn't work.

I went to the demostration with a friend. It was confusing. There were more banners blaming ETA than Al Qaeda and many people shouted against Arnaldo Otegui, spokeman of the now illegal political branch of ETA. Some banners just said "ETA = Al Qaeda". I said to my friend "Imagine for a moment that it wasn't ETA. We are making a fool of ourselves demostrating against Basque terrorism". Many people shouted "¿Quién ha sido?" (Who has been?)

Saturday
A media group that supports the Socialist Party quoted foreign medias that find hard to blame ETA. And it reported about the complains of foreigner journalists in Spain about governmental pressure to blame ETA.
In the other hand Conservative media said all was a conspiration to blame Al Qaeda to distract attention of the fact that Socialist Party's ally in Catalonia government negociated with ETA. (long story, I'm summing up)

Then, it was around 5 o'clock in the afternoon when minister Acebes announces that 3 Moroccan citizens and 2 Indian citizens are under police custody for their involvement in the bombigs. Then it explodes. One hour later hundreds of people demostrated in front of Partido Popular's office in Madrid. The same happens in may other cities and tows in Spain. People felt that goverment had lied, or at least, given confussing information to present the terrorist attack as an action of ETA, and get a massive support in the coming election.

Around nine o'clock the Popular Party candidate called for the end of demostration and blamed for Socialist Party about having organised it. People in the streets get even infuriated.

That night the first channel of public TV changes by surprise the usual show on Satudar night and broadcast a documentary on the killing of one Basque politician and his bodyguard by ETA.

Election Day
I took a look to the figures of last Sunday, and they are interesting things to figure out.

Spain has 42 millions inhabitants. Around 18 or 19 million people vote to the main two parties Partido Popular (Popular Party, conservative) and Partido Socialista Obrero Español (Socialist Party, socialdemocrat).

These are the figures for the 2000 election .
http://www.elmundo.es/especiales/2004/03/espana/14m/resultados/anteriores/congreso/globales/

23.864.497 went to vote that day (68,71% participation)

10.321.178 votes went for the Popular Party that got 183 seats
7.918.752 votes went for the Socialist Party that got 125 seats

Popular Party got 2.402.426 more votes than Socialist Party

If some of you are right, what happened last Sunday was that thousands of people in Spain ****ted their trousers and skirts, start crying like girls and rushed to vote to the Socialist Party "Please, plaese, let Osama has it in his way, pull back the soldiers back from Irak".

Let's take a look to the figures of 2004 election.

http://www.elmundo.es/especiales/2004/03/espana/14m/resultados/congreso/globales/

25.846.620 went to vote last Sunday (77.21 % participation).

Since Thursday all political parties and the goverment called for a massive participation as an act of support of the Spanish democracy.
In the neibourghoods around the stations who suffered the bomb attacks the participation was higher than the 80%. The overall rise of participation was 8,5 points. 1.982.123 people more went to vote last Sunday compared to 4 yers ago.

So what's about the results?

10.909.687 votes were for the Socialist Party that got 164 seats
9.630.512 votes were for the Popular Party that got 148 seats

Popular Party got 690.666 votes less. Socialist Party got 2.990.935 votes more. Interesting, isn't it?

Before the bombings it was expected that the Popular Party would lose support and it would fall below the 176 seats barriers needed to make a goverment in Spain. Many times they are suprises and the surveys are a total s***, so we can't say what would happen in the case of bombing didn't happen. In the case of the "cry baby theory" was true, it wouldn't be enough to explain the Socialist victory. It's sure that Socialist Party won because not because it "stole" support to the Popular Party, but a lot of people who usually not go to vote went to do it for the Socialist Party. Who are them?

Socialist Party got bigger increase of support in Andalucía (South) and Catalonia (NE) of Spain. It would take a lot of time to explain politics in Andalucía and Catalonia but Partido Popular support has only sank lately.

The "new voters" were young people. They are those who say "Nothing is going to change whoever govern", "Politics is **** and all politicians are bastards". They demonstrated against the Popular Party several times in the last years: Against the new university law (LOU), against the management of the Prestige oil tanker sinking (our "Exxon Valdez"), against the war and last Satudary against the government...

Socialist Party always failed to get their support until last Thursday. I belong to a research group on new technologies and social and political movement. Since Sunday I have been collecting a lot of articles and news about how all the demonstrations against Popular Party last Saturday . They were organised by Short Message System (a feature of GSM mobile phones) that is a craze among young people in countries like Spain.

If you can read Spanish here's an interview to a former head of the Spanish public Centro de Investigaciones Sociológicas (Sociological Research Center)...
http://www.periodistadigital.com/object.php?o=23108

Well... Here are my conclusions...

Did the terrorist attack last Thursday influenced the elections?
Absolutely. But the change of expected results are explained by inner Spanish politics.

Will Spain give up in "War on Terror"?
No, if you mean fighting against Al Qaeda. They have killed 201 fellow citizens and foreign workers who came to Spain to have a better life. Why we wouldn't want to fight against those hijos de puta? Having the Socialist Party in the goverment means only that Spain won't support illegal wars against a country not related with Al Qaeda to find imaginary WMD.

Maybe you aren't paying attention to it, but Spain has now information about the guys who planned this, they are some of them in jail already, a meeting of top antiterrorist officials is going to be held in Spain, etc, etc... Take note we are NOT bombing Morocco to relieve our rage.

Brining back the troops to Spain, isn't giving the wrong message to Al Qaeda?
Of course. Zapatero pretends to acomplish what he promised, but in the context following the terrorist attacks in Madrid it's going to be a wrong decision. Anyway, sending soldiers to Irak to "help in rebuilding the country" wasn't unpopular.

The public Centro de Investigaciones Sociológicas (Sociological Reserch Center) makes a public opinion poll every month and these are the results.

Study 2.481 February 2003
http://www.cis.es/estudio.asp?nest=2481

¿Está Ud. muy de acuerdo, bastante, poco o nada de acuerdo con que se produzca una intervención militar contra Irak?

Degree of support to the invasion of Irak.

Muy de acuerdo........... 1.2 high
Bastante de acuerdo.... 4.1 fair
Poco de acuerdo.......... 20.8 low
Nada de acuerdo......... 70.0 nothing
N.S. .......................... 3.4 don't know
N.C. ......................... .4 don't answer

If you split them up between "yes" and "know" you get as conclusion that more than the 90% of Spanish people disagreed with the invasion of Irak.

Study 2508 April 2003
http://www.cis.es/estudio.asp?nest=2508

Como Ud. sabe, España ha enviado al conflicto de Irak una fuerza militar en misión humanitaria. ¿Está Ud. muy de acuerdo, bastante de acuerdo, poco de acuerdo o nada de acuerdo con este envío?

Degree of support to the sending of soldiers in "humanitarian mission"

Muy de acuerdo 20.0
Bastante de acuerdo 40.7
Poco de acuerdo 14.5
Nada de acuerdo 20.4
Le es indiferente 1.6
N.S. 2.2
N.C. .6

Splitting it up again in "yes" and "no" we have more than 60% percent of support.

En su opinión, finalizada la guerra de Irak, ¿debe España participar en las acciones internacionales destinadas a la reconstrucción del país?

After the war, should Spain take part in the internacional actions to rebuild the country?

Sí 68.2 yes
No 22.5 no
N.S. 8.2 doen't know
N.C. 1.1 doesn't answer

I won't stop copying and pasting this until everyone talking BS shut the f*** up in the all the threads about morons talking about a country they don't live in, whose language they don't speak, whose politcs they don't know and results to be my country.


Headquarters in Afghanistan happened to exist because there was a civil war there going with almost regular armies (mechanized units). You have also Al Qaeda training camps, but they were the kind of camp where you train guerrila fighters. If you consider a tent with a sattelite phone an Al Qaeda headquarter have it your way.

[Lobo]

Ah, just one last comment.

IsdatU=Quon Sen Hutt, please... Go on making us having fun :petting:

[mrfloppy]

Thanks for your explanations, lobo. Very interesting figures, indeed.

It is off topic over here, but as IDFM203 wrote:
...the fact is that yes the hard liners did help, for there has been a BIG difference from before late 2002 when Israel went back in to before, for before, there was a homicide bombing and shooting attack against Israeli civilians almost daily and for sure weekly, now it has dropped over 50 percent to where it is now a monthly occurrence and shootings against Israeli civilians and cars are a even more infrequent occurrence.


Well, Sharon already came to power in march 2001, and then the death toll on the israeli side did rise to its peak in 2002 (under Sharon). Looking on Israeli statistics, I wouldn't say that there is a significant decline in victims due to the hardliners being in power. These are the figures I looked at: http://www.ict.org.il/ But maybe those statistics are unreliable............

[IDFM203]

Thanks for your explanations, lobo. Very interesting figures, indeed.

It is off topic over here, but as IDFM203 wrote...the fact is that yes the hard liners did help, for there has been a BIG difference from before late 2002 when Israel went back in to before, for before, there was a homicide bombing and shooting attack against Israeli civilians almost daily and for sure weekly, now it has dropped over 50 percent to where it is now a monthly occurrence and shootings against Israeli civilians and cars are a even more infrequent occurrence.”

Well, Sharon already came to power in march 2001, and then the death toll on the israeli side did rise to its peak in 2002 (under Sharon). Actually here you are right about a bit ;)

When barek was booted out of office after his dovish offers and polices and inaction against terrorism only brought more violence, violence already was at a all time high and it was heading higher when Sharon came in and yes it didn’t change overnight for he is no magician per say…..and in fact, yes I and a lot of others were very critical of him from waiting till around April 2002 (after the horbile homcide bombing that came to be called the Passover massacre) to go in for operation defensive shield, for yes up till then there was a change in power but not a change in polices and inaction, perhaps Sharon didn’t want to change things too quickly, lest people say he is just like his negative stereo type, but rather he wanted to prove that he can be a bit dovish and not go in right away…I don’t know, but the fact is that after his hard line polices went into effect in 2002 till now, there has been around a 50 percent decline in the NUMBER of successful attacks inside of Israel of homicide bombings and even more of a percentage drop of what was almost daily shootings at Israelis and their vehicles on the roads.

Just note that during operation defensive shield, there was a drop in attacks and then when Israel pulled out, there was an increase and it went back up, but only when Israel went back in and till today, has the drop been steady.

Your website that you brought is indeed interesting (and one that I have seen before) however I had a hard time finding a statistical charts of the number of attacks broken down yearly.

What I do remember seeing and reading before and seeing on the news, and I tried to look for it but I couldn’t find it, were articles about a few months ago in Jerusalem post and in herrats (sp?), where they officially outlined what I talked about.




The fact of the matter is that the hard line polices, when enacted (and yes it wasn’t when he first came in) did produce a BIG drop in the number of attacks and did LIMIT them to what was before almost a daily or weekly homicide bombing and almost the same rate of shooting attacks on Israeli civilians, whereas now it is now around a monthly occurrence with even less of a occurrence in shootings.

Lastly I also remember reading in those articles, that the homicide bombings of last year, were less powerful (not all of them but a lot of them) due to their underground work shops and things like that being destroyed (not all of them but a lot) and it forced hamas and the other terror organization to kind of scarp together anything, even less powerful explosives just to get any attack off, whereas before Israel went in, they had full reign over their bomb making facilities and it was easier for them to make bigger and more powerful explosives.


Shalom :D