Question for the Spanish

[Lazy Lob]

What the bollox is going on in the Canary Islands? I’ve heard that the illegal immigration has got really out of hand and that your prez is requesting Euro help. Also that they aren’t removing the illegals back to their countries of origin but taking them to the mainland.

Are people concerned?

[Knutsen]

Since the Gibraltar straits borders are so surveilled by the military and civil guard , getting into spain is turning to be "easier" through the canary islands.
The journey is longer and more dangerous than in the straits, but there are less chances of being caught.
The problem is that in the canary islands there aren't enough camps for immigrants ( the immigrants phenomenon is quite recent ) and because most of the illegals come from countries without extradition accords they can't be expelled (AFAIK we have extradition accords with Nigeria, Morocco and a couple of countries more) and that's why they are taken to mainland, where the infraestructures are much better.
Besides, some months ago , with the avalanches in Ceuta and Melilla there was a scandal because Morocco were taking those immigrants to the Sahara desert (near Mauritania) with no food, that's why they can't be sent to Morocco or Mauritania

There's also a problem with civil guard. Three days ago the Civil Guard's union denounced that most of the vessels are in Valencia , in the America's cup, and there aren't enough for the canary islands.
The government approved sending navy vessels to the canary islands, but the main focus to avoid illegal immigration is in Mauritania (and to a lesser extent, Senegal). The government is asking the EU assistance to control Mauritania , and also signing agreements with Mauritania.

And yes, people are concerned. Imagine, the big news today was that today any boat had arrived in the Canary islands.

[aixina]

1000 inmigrants in a single day it's prety scary if things keep going like this it won't take much to turn into an humanitarian disaster.
and things may be even worse, i'm not sure, but it seem s that senegal has closed it's democratic relations with spain.

[miguelencanarias]

We got 600 in a single day, over 1000 in three days. In 5 months we have received more illegal inmigrants than in the whole 2005. They land everywhere, even in the small fishing village I live in, in Gran Canaria. It is completely out of hand now, and there is no clear solution in sight.

Our relations with Senegal are still functioning, but they plain and simply said that they have no resources to stop the flood.

A local newspaper sent a team to St. Louis, Senegal, and it was scary: people saying: 'we are all going. There will be no one left here'. When they heard news of Spain deploying blue sea patrolships, AWACS and a satellite, they said: 'then we must hurry before they put those in place'.

We in the Canaries were quite open minded and stuff, but this just can't keep going on. We feel like being invaded.

[Knutsen]

miguel, are these recent floods that important? I've never been to the canary islands but it looks like a serious thing.

[Greek soldier]

Heard the news today and from the images it IS far more than serious. That's the reason 3 European countries (Greece, Italy, Spain) try to collaborate to stop illegal immigration.

[miguelencanarias]

We have had illegal inmigrants coming since the late 90s, but never in these numbers. I remember when we were shocked to see 30 people in a weekend. Now we get 300 in just a day.

This is causing many problems: our judicial system is collapsed because of all the paperwork each one of them requires, border patrol, originally focused on fighting drug smuggling is now entirely dedicated to taking these people in, there is no room to lodge them, the Red Cross is overwhelmed, running out of resources and the Canaries are already overpopulated. These are small islands, and in at least one of them, there are more inmigrants than Canarians. This has to stop.

Personally, although I am a fairly well educated man, I am becoming more and more wary of inmigration if not downright xenophobic. Rate crime rising, violence never heard of in these tiny islands... you get the idea. And there are already villages that you no longer consider part of the Canaries, so full of Arabs and Latin Americans they are, the locals being displaced. I hate to hear myself saying these things, but that is how I feel at the moment.

[Dinivan]

This is for sure an european matter, this problem should be shared, as Spain and Italy are not guilty of being the european frontier with Africa. We've done everything we could with Morocco and it seems we had enough success, but I doubt we can do the same with Mauritania, as the state is less powerful there. So we cannot stop the boats from starting their journey, shoot to them, send the immigrants back to home because the country of origin doesn't want to sign an agreement about repatriation, and we cannot leave the immigrants in the middle of the desert. It's hard to see a solution, nowadays, as long as they don't sink in the middle of the ocean by their own, they'll probably stay in Europe.

[Lazy Lob]

Thanks for the replies guys. I've got a feeling we're going to hear more on this as it'll probably get worse.

@ Dinivan: No it's not Spains fault being on the frontline. But this has a lot to do with the Spanish president's legalisation of more than 700.000 illegals in one fell swoop. In my opinion a highly irresponsible action.

We have a similar problem in the UK but it's more underhand with crass incompetence at the home office, the IND and government ministers. In fact this laissez-faire policy is an ill that affects the majority of European governments.

[miguelencanarias]

LazyLob, both the current, liberal president and the conservative president before him made massive legalisations. I agree it solves little, but I really cannot see a working, viable answer to this problem.

[Lazy Lob]

LazyLob, both the current, liberal president and the conservative president before him made massive legalisations. I agree it solves little, but I really cannot see a working, viable answer to this problem.


I didn't know Aznar did the same. But I agree it's a tough one. Do you know if the illegals taken to the Spanish mainland are properly detained or do they go free?

[Knutsen]

I didn't know Aznar did the same. But I agree it's a tough one. Do you know if the illegals taken to the Spanish mainland are properly detained or do they go free?
If i'm not mistaken, Berlusconi did something similar during his time as prime minister , with similar numbers ,around 700.000 immigrants.

About being detained, many are detained until a decission is taken but te majority of them go free.

[Gatling]

I clearly understand how somebody from the Canaries would feel at this time. It is indeed alarming , but in my opinion although it is easier said than done it is on the smugglers cartel , most of the time North Africans , that the bulk of the effort should be concentrated upon
http://www.rfi.fr/actufr/images/076/afrique_emigration2006.jpg
this is a map of the principal routes of immigration towards Europe that I found on a french site .
Note: I was reading not too long ago an article on a newly trans-sahara road built in Mauritania between Nouakchott and Nouadhibou . The author was depicting the benefits it would bring the people of Mauritania , in terms of commerce and so forth , but he was also predicting a big increase in illegal immigration towards the Canaries islands and a flourishing business for the local smugglers .

[Turhapuro]

Why do you have to set free illegal immigrants after 40 days, unless you prove their nationality? Who invented this law? It is just plain stupid.

"Spanish immigration laws do not allow police to expel people if they cannot prove their identity or nationality within 40 days."

[Knutsen]

It's not that stupid. This law exists because :

a) you can't detain the immigrants much time, because there are immigrants arriving every day and there's not enough phisical room in the detention centers

b) you can't expel them if you don't know their nationality. Why? because, where would you expel them to? Morocco? In morocco they are abandoned in the desert, we don't want them here, but we don't want to kill them neither.
Mauritania? they will try to jump to Spain again, they will risk their lives again . It's a law destinated to protect their lives.

[annihilation]

I have family in Spain and my mom talks to them weekly. They tell her of the situation in Spain. With all the illegal immigration it has gotten pretty bad she said. All work is not considered tempory work so its hard to find a decent job. She even said before you could get medicine without paying a fee, but it seems now because of the influx of immigrants, they have no placed a change on medicine because it has gotten so bad.

I feel for the immigrants, they want a better life and all but traveling to another country is not the solution. All it does is take the problem from one place and move it to another. Now spain, italy has to suffer.

Knutsen, I don't want to sound mean but if they will not give their nationality when caught then they should be placed on a plane and sent to the middle of Africa. Spain shouldn't be forced to house people and should foot the bill till god knows when. Sounds mean but what can you really do. Till the world and Africa decides to clean up their act their is not much else you can do.

[miguelencanarias]

Inmigrants coming to Spain are instructed by the mafias to throw away their passports and every way of identification, and not to provide basic information as to where they're from, thus rendering impossible for the Spanish authorities to verify their nationality. I think any man doing that should be considered non-cooperative and sent back without further ado to the point of origin (be that Marocco, Mauritania or Senegal).

As for them being left in the middle of the desert, boo-hoo ain't life tough. Nothing prevents those caring souls always shouting 'Papeles para todos' (papers for everybody) to stablish some help center in that desert.

[Knutsen]

I'm just explaining the law. The situation is very difficult to deal with. That's why Spain is asking for european assistance

[annihilation]

I agree its a tough situation and harsh action will need to be taken. There goes my retirement in Spain thats for sure.

[Lazy Lob]

A good propaganda effort depicting what to expect in Europe and that the mafias are lying to them will probably stem some of the flow.

Knutsen, Europe needs a common policy on immigration and ENFORCEMENT without any political interference. I never thought I'de "hear" myself say that as I don't like common policies.

[annihilation]

A good propaganda effort depicting what to expect in Europe and that the mafias are lying to them will probably stem some of the flow.

Hardly, people will think its just bs.

[Turhapuro]

It's not that stupid. This law exists because :

a) you can't detain the immigrants much time, because there are immigrants arriving every day and there's not enough phisical room in the detention centers

b) you can't expel them if you don't know their nationality. Why? because, where would you expel them to? Morocco? In morocco they are abandoned in the desert, we don't want them here, but we don't want to kill them neither.
Mauritania? they will try to jump to Spain again, they will risk their lives again . It's a law destinated to protect their lives.
But that law is why they destroy their identification. If they knew that without ID they would end up Moroccon desert or Senegal coast (or some other appropriate place), they would carry ID's. Then you could expel them to their own country.

[Knutsen]

A good propaganda effort depicting what to expect in Europe and that the mafias are lying to them will probably stem some of the flow.

Knutsen, Europe needs a common policy on immigration and ENFORCEMENT without any political interference. I never thought I'de "hear" myself say that as I don't like common policies.

100% agree.
Every once in a while there are documentaries in spanish television talking about immigrants and what they tell is really moving. I remember a guy saying he had tried to arrive in Spain 7 times. He had lost his brother and some of his friends and he had suffered very bad wounds in Melilla and when asked if he was going to try again he said: "Of course, i'd rather die in the sea than not trying again"

[MARINO]

LazyLob, both the current, liberal president and the conservative president before him made massive legalisations. I agree it solves little, but I really cannot see a working, viable answer to this problem.
Wich massive legalization please. During the previous goverment they had a bad inmagration policy, it was a real ****.
They legalized people but they didn't legalized 700.000( without considering the familiar regroupment so 700.000 x3 , or more) in 2 months.
BTW there's a problem with lots of inmigrants cuz we don't know their nationality, so they bring them to the peninsula, and they left them free in Madrid Valecia, etc..

[Mastermind]

All I can say is...Hahhahahhhhhhhh....HGAHHAHHHHhhhhhhhhhhhh.....OMG...that's hilarious.

Well, folks...welcome to the real world. Now What?

No...really....NOW WHAT?

[miguelencanarias]

Mastermind, please explain the meaning of your msg.

[superbuzzmetal]

I think he is referring to his own country immigration problems kinda like now you are on the same boat as us.
Thank god we gave Ceuta to you guys, I can't imagine the problems we would have with our crappy gov.

[miguelencanarias]

Superbuzzmetal, you are probably right.

As for Mastermind's post, I think it is really, really moronic, inmature and offensive. It is annoying how some Americans think there is nothing outside their country. Welcome to the real world? What an imbecile. As if we didn't know what was inmigration before. Kinda reminds me of those idiots claiming Spain didn't know what terrorism was until the Madrid bombings, ignoring the fact that we had been fighting terrorism for 35 years.

[Mastermind]

Here it is...I will later post the title and the author of the Frenchman who wrote a fictional work that is right on the the topic of the invasion of desperate people into Europe.

What is hilarious to me is the liberal mind set that introduced laws that massaged western consciences...to take in these poor, down trodden types. Suddenly, the "downtrodden" are onto the game and now expect, in their millions, to be taken in for all kinds of reason. How long did the western libs think the starving, beaten underclass of the third world would stand by and see the grand life style just a few miles distant and not try to get to it. These people are in a life or death situation for themselves and their families and now are going to try to overun the societies that say they are "welcoming"...but it is not something you can stop once it begins....as the Spanish are finding out with their liberal "humanitarian" laws. Their society is now at risk and ..as we watch...nothing can be or will be done to stop it...my question..."NOW WHAT" is designed to put the liberal mind set to work to quit the hypocrisy and make their confrontation with reality....immigration issues are going to be the primary difficulty, I think, over the next decades as the wealthy "haves" try to protect themselves from the massive numbers of "have-nots"...What is the solution? Can humanity...western humanity, deal with this problem without self destructing? Can we turn these people away? If we don't, are we ready to let our societies be overwhelmed? If you do turn them away..what happens if they refuse to meekly go? What if they just keep coming and dare your wealthy, enlightened society to do more to stop them? The Mexicans invading the USA have already said..."You can shoot us if you want...we will still come."

As the Frencman's book faces the problem...the ending for France is quite alarming. I do not think he is far off the mark of what is about to happen.

I know this...We had damn well better come to grips with this problem, end our fantasy ride with liberal absurdity solutions and get serious...because this problem is not going to go away and it is one of the most serious (and difficult to solve) problems any civilized society ever faced.

That is the explanation of my post above...thanks for asking. MM

[annihilation]

Here it is...I will later post the title and the author of the Frenchman who wrote a fictional work that is right on the the topic of the invasion of desperate people into Europe.

What is hilarious to me is the liberal mind set that introduced laws that massaged western consciences...to take in these poor, down trodden types. Suddenly, the "downtrodden" are onto the game and now expect, in their millions, to be taken in for all kinds of reason. How long did the western libs think the starving, beaten underclass of the third world would stand by and see the grand life style just a few miles distant and not try to get to it. These people are in a life or death situation for themselves and their families and now are going to try to overun the societies that say they are "welcoming"...but it is not something you can stop once it begins....as the Spanish are finding out with their liberal "humanitarian" laws. Their society is now at risk and ..as we watch...nothing can be or will be done to stop it...my question..."NOW WHAT" is designed to put the liberal mind set to work to quit the hypocrisy and make their confrontation with reality....immigration issues are going to be the primary difficulty, I think, over the next decades as the wealthy "haves" try to protect themselves from the massive numbers of "have-nots"...What is the solution? Can humanity...western humanity, deal with this problem without self destructing? Can we turn these people away? If we don't, are we ready to let our societies be overwhelmed? If you do turn them away..what happens if they refuse to meekly go? What if they just keep coming and dare your wealthy, enlightened society to do more to stop them? The Mexicans invading the USA have already said..."You can shoot us if you want...we will still come."

As the Frencman's book faces the problem...the ending for France is quite alarming. I do not think he is far off the mark of what is about to happen.

I know this...We had damn well better come to grips with this problem, end our fantasy ride with liberal absurdity solutions and get serious...because this problem is not going to go away and it is one of the most serious (and difficult to solve) problems any civilized society ever faced.

That is the explanation of my post above...thanks for asking. MM

So western civ will not fall because of a nuclear exchange (cold war) but an influx of illegals. Damn thats a sucky way to go. What can be done IMO is to deny entry to these people, its harsh I know. But simple turn them away, really there is not much else you can do. But also with turning them away we unfortunatly need to take a bigger effort and making sure the places they come from have a more stable democratic government and an economic enviroment where they can think twice about leaving and risking their lives to come to the "promise land".

[Mastermind]

Yes...very true...but think of the consequinces of that...damning those poor people to an existance of utter futility and suffering in their devastated home land...while you sit on your spacious front porch drinking mint tea and watching "Friends" on the telly...no civilized nation (populace) can bring themselves to face condemnation like that to others....thus...conscience is the ruination of nations. 7/10ths of the worlds population are watching the "Have it" civilizations...waiting their turn...think about that tonight when you snuggle down, your belly all full and the nice warm covers over you, your kids all safe and well fed, sleeping in their own safe bedroooms in your airconditioned and heated home....the 7/10ths are.

[annihilation]

Yes...very true...but think of the consequinces of that...damning those poor people to an existance of utter futility and suffering in their devastated home land...while you sit on your spacious front porch drinking mint tea and watching "Friends" on the telly...no civilized nation (populace) can bring themselves to face condemnation like that to others....thus...conscience is the ruination of nations. 7/10ths of the worlds population are watching the "Have it" civilizations...waiting their turn...think about that tonight when you snuggle down, your belly all full and the nice warm covers over you, your kids all safe and well fed, sleeping in their own safe bedroooms in your airconditioned and heated home....the 7/10ths are.


I do p-) that why I advocate more rebuilding of other nations is needed.

[Mastermind]

Yes...that is also true. Yet, rebuilding nations is an endeavor fraought with hazards...you are in essence saying, "I don't think your nation is doing the job we think is appropriate for your people". Then you try by force of arms or trade to change things within the borders of that nation. You are interfering inside soverign borders and that gives them license to do the same with your country. eventually, that behavior will be severly frowned upon by your own countrymen...war? that is a higly likely result....so..what if you win, as the USA (and her allies) did over Japan...then take care of them? At what cost? Wars breed hatred...the political cost of repairing Japan was so dangerous as to be not tried again for many years. Look at the consiquinces of Vietnam...we tried to interfere with a soverign nation...it took assassinations and intrigue that would have confounded Michiaevelli...and we lost not only lives by the tens of thousands, treasure in the hundreds of billions and prestige around the world...Iraq? Look at the costs...surmounting even the entire cost of WWII and now everyone in the world hates us...Now, we try to defend out own borders from Mexico...and again, we are considered racists and anti-poor. How can a nation of successful endeavor defend against slovenly or irresponsible neighbors? The answer is, it can not without being chastized for being stingy...if that is the case...then, I say, so be it.

But, I know the vast majority of my countrymen say..."Let them in. We can't stand being tought of as stingy." The price will some day be over what any nation can pay.

[Lazy Lob]

Yes...that is also true. Yet, rebuilding nations is an endeavor fraought with hazards...you are in essence saying, "I don't think your nation is doing the job we think is appropriate for your people". Then you try by force of arms or trade to change things within the borders of that nation. You are interfering inside soverign borders and that gives them license to do the same with your country. eventually, that behavior will be severly frowned upon by your own countrymen...war? that is a higly likely result....so..what if you win, as the USA (and her allies) did over Japan...then take care of them? At what cost? Wars breed hatred...the political cost of repairing Japan was so dangerous as to be not tried again for many years. Look at the consiquinces of Vietnam...we tried to interfere with a soverign nation...it took assassinations and intrigue that would have confounded Michiaevelli...and we lost not only lives by the tens of thousands, treasure in the hundreds of billions and prestige around the world...Iraq? Look at the costs...surmounting even the entire cost of WWII and now everyone in the world hates us...Now, we try to defend out own borders from Mexico...and again, we are considered racists and anti-poor. How can a nation of successful endeavor defend against slovenly or irresponsible neighbors? The answer is, it can not without being chastized for being stingy...if that is the case...then, I say, so be it.

But, I know the vast majority of my countrymen say..."Let them in. We can't stand being tought of as stingy." The price will some day be over what any nation can pay.

That was a good one MM, I'm with you there.

[Loco]

I didn´t read all the thread yet, so excuse me if I repeat something that was written before. I´ve been in Tenerife last Easters hollydays. Well, I didn´t see any "cayuco" even that I´ve spent many hours in the sea, but I learnt that word. People is worried not only in Canary Islands but in Spain too. Today it was published a survey and now illegal inmigration is the main worry of spanish, ahead of unemployment or terrorism. I perceive that inmigration is well understood in Spain, our economy needs inmigrants until now, everybody knows it, but the question is how many inmigrants? And other question is that this is a problem, massive inmigration, that Spain is facing for first time, not the case of countries like Netherland, GB, France, Switzerland or Germany, we are facing the problem with good willing and I think that with some ingenuity. Thousands of illegal inmigrants try to arrive to Spain from Africa, but thousands of illegal inmigrants DO arrive to Spain through Pyrinees mountains. How thousands of roumenian gypsies have driven through Hungaria, Austria, Germany and France to come to Spain? I wonder what in the hell are doing migration police in all those countries. Not to mention the hundred of thousands of illegal poles, ukrainian, russian, bulgarian, non gypsy roumenians and other people from east Europe that arrived to Spain before their countries joined EU. As a rule, usually there´s no problem when an illegal inmigrant joins the work market, wherever is he from he inmediately is integrated, but our social services are beginning to be hot. I think that in some cases we as spanish have a special historical responsability towards people from America, millions of spanish emigrated there before and I know if we need to emigrate there in the future, we´ll find a place there. But in many other cases we have not any duty or obligation to people from Africa or Asia or east Europe, that´s responsability of french or british, like the case of Senegal, Mali, Camerun or Marroq.
Clearly the problem that is facing Canary Islands is a problem of all the European Union, it´s not only a problem from Spain. Today I read an interview with a member of Senegal government. Senegal is just know they main source of the wave of inmigrants that are flooding the islands, and he cinically said that he wants his inmigrants back home, but he wants money of Europe for building ponds for their farms and agriculture. So Senegal is using emigration as a political weapon for dealing with EU. The same that Senegal other countries like Gambia, Mali, CAmerun and a long etc. Btw, I remember that in Senegal there was a big community of inmigrants from Mauritania, just in the northern border. So to speak, Mauritanians are arabs and whites from a Senegal point of view and the ones who hunted and sold black as slaves, that´s an argument not used daily, just ammunition used when it´s useful. Well, the mauritanian community had raised a lot in Senegal and they were good doing little business in the local malls. One day there was a diplomatic discussion between both countries and from monday to tuesday all mauritanians were expelled from Senegal. It didn´t happened 500 years ago, just 15 years at most. We must remember it when dealing with this governments.

[Knutsen]

I see the way you deal with immigration in USA, Mastermind, you have no problems at all .:roll:

Bush strong!
Conservatives strong!
Damn pinko commie socialists and liberals! Immigration is their fault!



We all want to protect our borders, but there's a difference between that and what your first 2 posts said. The problem is there, regardless of political ideas.

[Mastermind]

Hey...don't get down on me because I present the questions and outline the problem. This thing is far too important to be put into liberal fantasy land (although I personally think that is what is going to continue to happen over it). It is also such a tough problem to solve both physically and morally. There simply does not seem to be any solution.

By the way..LOCO...I think you have stated the situation very well.

[foxtrot023]

The mian worry is that this level of inmigration can´t be maintained, and the worse thing is that the Far Right is having a field day with this. Up to know the far right parties are on the fringes (some exceptions like France´s Le Pen and Austria), but unless the mainstream parties start to solve things right now, we will have a backslash against inmigrants, and it wont be pretty.

and it is a shame really, inmigration, if properly done, is fantastic for a country.

[annihilation]

The mian worry is that this level of inmigration can´t be maintained, and the worse thing is that the Far Right is having a field day with this. Up to know the far right parties are on the fringes (some exceptions like France´s Le Pen and Austria), but unless the mainstream parties start to solve things right now, we will have a backslash against inmigrants, and it wont be pretty.

and it is a shame really, inmigration, if properly done, is fantastic for a country.


Immigration legally is great. The situation here we are dealing with is illegal immigration. Legal immigration will never change and but something has to be done about the illegal to curb the tide.

[superbuzzmetal]

The mian worry is that this level of inmigration can´t be maintained, and the worse thing is that the Far Right is having a field day with this. Up to know the far right parties are on the fringes (some exceptions like France´s Le Pen and Austria), but unless the mainstream parties start to solve things right now, we will have a backslash against inmigrants, and it wont be pretty.

and it is a shame really, inmigration, if properly done, is fantastic for a country.

This is happening all over europe, even in my own country the far right is gaining more power as the immigration problem increases.

[Knutsen]

MasterMind i'm not getting down on you, i'm just saying that your first posts seem to be the typical rant about your political rivals , in a topic that has to do little with political wings.
Your other posts are much more reasonable

[remo williams]

Interesting issue the Spanish are facing. Eventually many if not most all of european costal and inland countries will face the same issue. from looking at the map of immigration routes and origins though it's clear to me why there's such an influx. the countries,some of them, are the worst shyteholes on the planet. wrought by war and genocide over the last half century at least. your proposals at controlling the migration and such are really treatments for the sympotoms. The problem is that people are jsut plain getting out of dodge. corrupt govt's, warring clans and millitias,and genocide aren't exactly beneficial to having a society stick around. you can't possibly expect them to stay for that. just like those who'd move to escape the increase in crime and lack of space,opportunity will eventually migrate,so are they. I know that the arguement of investmenthas been brought to the table and scapped by hook or crook,but I think it should be considered and carried out differently. I realize you cannot impose "your way" of doing things on a different culture,however to start you do need a clean slate. By clean I mean sanitized of all the militias and corrupt gov't officials. it's no easy way to do it,but I wonder if among the citizens,there would be those who'd do what's right for their people. Idealistic and optomistic yes, but perhaps if some meaningful intervention took place earlier in the timeline things wouldn't be where they are now. After watching about how a 700man SF group of contractors basically liberated Angola, I wonder why it couldn't be done again. Why it wasn't allowed to happen,especially since we know the UN has no fcuking nuts for it. Keep them in the loop in establishing the gov't structure they choose for themselves. If there's somethng to go back for,maybe it'll stem the tide. But the attitude of "there's no apparent self benefit" isn't working. Just a thought.

[Mastermind]

SO...Okay...Knutsen...I wonder if you have an opinion about the eventual outcome of this matter? do you think there is a viable solution or will it result in the total dilution of civilization as we know it?

[remo williams]

Dillution or destruction?

[Mastermind]

Ultimately...what's the difference?

[oldsoak]

The mian worry is that this level of inmigration can´t be maintained, and the worse thing is that the Far Right is having a field day with this. Up to know the far right parties are on the fringes (some exceptions like France´s Le Pen and Austria), but unless the mainstream parties start to solve things right now, we will have a backslash against inmigrants, and it wont be pretty.

and it is a shame really, inmigration, if properly done, is fantastic for a country.

True - the problem is that the left wing cannot see that it feeds the right wing in this matter. We have situations where people wanting to legally immigrate have to go through quite a process where an illegal immigrant is seen to buck the system and generally does not bring any premium skills into the country.

[Loco]

I´d wouldn´t like to talk about left or wright wing here, at least in the case of Spain or if we talk among spanish. Honestly we all know that inmigrants began to arrive here when our economy began to raise and specially when our rate of growing is comparatively bigger than that of our neighbours. It´s not something to blame left or wright for massive inmigration, only the way it´s being administrated because it´s a very known fact that the big inmigration wave, bigger in figures than inmigration to France or Germany, began during Aznar´s administration and the power of housing bubble, "black economy" and other factors have some point to see with inmigration. Now the question is what we do. Inmigrants have great movility and they can travel to other country very fast if our economy begins to be slower.
Some figures: Canary Islands(7 little islands of 7500km2 surface) have received about 40.000 illegal inmigrants in boats in the last 5 years, but in 2006 they received 6.000 illegal inmigrants. It´s esteemed that all Spain have received over 1.000.000 illegal inmigrants in the last years, but the most of them don´t come from Africa but from East Europe, through Pyrinnees, and America. In the first 5 months of 2006 have been expelled 37.000 illegal inmigrants.