Why 'Jews for Jesus' is evil

[Clearday-TRForce]

By Bradley Burston

We were driving in the Galilee, waiting for a red light to change, when they came up to the car. Their smiles were engagingly open as they wished us a fine trip. Then they offered us the flyer.

Jews for Jesus. Who says that evil can't be imported, and delivered, free of charge, direct to your car door?

Don't get me wrong. The members of Jews for Jesus are pure souls. They are among the most wholesome, guileless, truly well-meaning, fundamentally lovely people you will ever meet.

More's the pity, therefore, that there's a special place in hell just for them.

I would like to begin by saying that I have nothing personal against these people. But that would be a lie.

The reason is that, grinning all the way, they want to take something personal from me. My history, my belief system, my ancestry. The flyers say they are concerned for my soul, and I believe them with all my heart. It's precisely my soul they're after, all right, mine and as many others as possible.

They're out to harvest Jewish souls in the name of Christ. And they're out to do it right here.

Make no mistake, I believe that these Christians must have every freedom to worship Jesus as their lord and messiah, perform every ritual, celebrate every holiday that they see fit. If they want to do Born-again Kiddush and Last Supper Kneidelach and Savior Shalosh S'eudes - gezunterheit.

And if missionary activity is a commandment in their view, I wish them every success - just one thing:

Leave the Jews alone.

The world is a target-rich environment for the missionary, the Protestant Christian world in particular. There's no end of lapsed Methodists, Episcopalians, Lutherans, Presbyterians, Baptists, Anabaptists, whom you're free to try to cajole into Christ.

You don't need us. Jesus doesn't need us. Leave us alone.

It's a safe bet that the Jews for Jesus who may be reading this are rolling their eyes by now, classifying me as Unbeliever Type G-639-L and writing me off.

But bear with me for one brief moment, if only to read the next sentence, which has specifically to do with you, as well as with your Jewish prey, thousands of years of Jewish history, and evil:

Proselytizing is persecution.

Granted, it's not the same as burning us at the stake for Christ's sake, firebombing our homes for Christ's sake, staging apres-church pogroms for Christ's sake, ostracizing and terrorizing and beating our children for having killed Christ, lynching Jewish adults for church-distributed blood libels, torturing Jews to force them to convert, converting entire Jewish communities on point of death, deporting entire Jewish communities on point of death for having resisted conversion, or, after eliminating the conversion option, annihilating entire Jewish communities with the complicitous blind eye of the Holy See.

But there's more than one way to wipe out a people, and poison, like gas, comes in many forms. Sometimes it looks like a leaflet. Sometimes it looks like the Internet. Sometimes it looks like a smile.

It should have occurred to you by now that Jews in the post-Holocaust era have a mission, no less than you. We have some saving to do of our own. In ways which are as individual as each Jew in the world, it has been left to us to save Jewry itself - its faith, its culture, its values, its memory, its history - from extinction.

Look around. There aren't that many of us left. There are 2 billion Christians in the world, and nearly a billion and a quarter Muslims.

There are barely 14 million Jews left alive on this planet. In 1933, that number was 15.3 million. Leave us alone.

The true evil of Jews for Jesus, is the movement's readiness to take advantages of the weaknesses of Judaism in our day, in order to further weaken it. Judaism's agonizing inability to reach its estranged youth is the stuff of Jew for Jesus dreams, the fantasy that, in the end, they will succeed in converting us.

Sorry, I'm not supposed to use that word. Under the Jews for Jesus creed - which appears aimed at confusing its own adherents at least as much as it seeks to "turn" us non-believers - Jews for Jesus members do not convert you, they just get you to believe that Jesus Christ is the lord, and that only through Jesus can one be saved.

The faithful may well be much too busy with salvation to concern themselves with extinction. There's clearly plenty for them to do, judging by some of their Websites, where I happened upon this useful piece of instruction from the founder of Jews for Jesus, Martin (Moishe) Rosen:

"Hey, if you don't know any Jewish people, you can look in the phone book for surnames that are always Jewish: Cohen, Katz, Levy, Rosen (and anything that begins with Rosen, like Rosenberg, Rosenbloom or Rosenfeld)."

And now, here in Israel, in a venture as predictable as it is indecent, they've set themselves a new target, Russian Jewish immigrants, descendants of the Jews Hitler didn't get the chance to kill.

May they fail.

There are those who will say, and I applaud them, that we should engage and embrace members of Jews for Jesus, showing openness to them rather than the cold shoulder that drives them further away. I applaud those who say this and act accordingly, but I don't have it in me.

It really comes down to this: It's hard enough to be Jewish as it is. It's tough to be Jewish if you're secular, and it's no less difficult if you're religious. It's tough to be Jewish in the Diaspora if you live among non-Jews. It's tough to live there if you live among lots of Jews. And it's tough as nails to be Jewish in Israel, atheist, knitted kippa, Haredi, or fusion JUBU.

If you're a Jew for Jesus and you're still reading this, you may well be thinking: This guy sounds riled. He needs a friend in Jesus.

You're thinking wrong. This guy needs you to keep your salvation to yourself.

Believe whatever you want. Practice whatever you preach.

Just stay the hell away from us.


http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/717574.html





best wishes,
CDTRF

[dacanadianbomb]

? This is more PD section material, I would say.

[S'13]

This should be in the political section.

A good read though.

[Hollis]

Must be a slow news day. Noone likes missionaries, except their own.

[S'13]

Must be a slow news day. Noone likes missionaries, except their own.

Judaism doesn't have missionaries.

Not to mention that the whole conversion process isn't an easy one.

[PILMAN]

I've seen a few of these "Messianic jews". There pretty much christains that were born Jewish. They say they are telling the word of G-d though it seems like they keep trying to convert me. Some of them scare me. I'm a Jew and I think i'll stay that.

[Hollis]

Judaism doesn't have missionaries.

Not to mention that the whole conversion process isn't an easy one.

I know, so no problem with missionaries. Todah.

[Hollis]

I've seen a few of these "Messianic jews". There pretty much christains that were born Jewish. They say they are telling the word of G-d though it seems like they keep trying to convert me. Some of them scare me. I'm a Jew and I think i'll stay that.

I have met several, a mix bag, mostly where Christian Gentiles who wanted to find the roots of Christianity, to worship like Jesus. There are also a assimulated Jews in the group, and some who converted from Judaism to Christianity. IMHO, it is still Christian but wrapped in a prayer shawl. I have met B'Ts who moved to Judaism from Messianic Christianity. Noachide have done the same too along with some converts.

[PILMAN]

I have met several, a mix bag, mostly where Christian Gentiles who wanted to find the roots of Christianity, to worship like Jesus. There are also a assimulated Jews in the group, and some who converted from Judaism to Christianity. IMHO, it is still Christian but wrapped in a prayer shawl. I have met B'Ts who moved to Judaism from Messianic Christianity. Noachide have done the same too along with some converts.

Well heres the contradiction, ok so esentially if your messianic your born Jewish and think Jesus (or Yeshua) is the messiah yet still follow Torah. Isn't that esentially against Torah? Most messianics I meet have the same lifestyle and beliefs/morals as a Christain would so I don't understand how they are still considered Jewish? At least not religiously.

[Hollis]

Well heres the contradiction, ok so esentially if your messianic your born Jewish and think Jesus (or Yeshua) is the messiah yet still follow Torah. Isn't that esentially against Torah? Most messianics I meet have the same lifestyle and beliefs/morals as a Christain would so I don't understand how they are still considered Jewish? At least not religiously.

I know, at best they are apostates.

Also Jew is a dual meaning word. One who follows Judaism and one of Jewish ancestory/ethnic heritage.

A Jew who is a athiest is still a Jew. But does not follow Judaism.

As far as what they are saying about following Torah, they are not, They are Christians. But instead of using the Greek "Kristos", the added the falvor of Hebrew, for annoited one.

Sites to look at is Aish.com, and probably a Christian site, to compare differences.

[S'13]

I've seen a few of these "Messianic jews". There pretty much christains that were born Jewish. They say they are telling the word of G-d though it seems like they keep trying to convert me. Some of them scare me. I'm a Jew and I think i'll stay that.

Interesting thing is that Judaism doesn't have this "convert and save your soul" type of rhetoric.

Accoring to Judaism a Gentile who follows the Seven Noahide Laws has a place in "the world to come". This while Jews are commanded to observe hundreds of laws... best to stay a Gentile then. p-)

[PILMAN]

I know, at best they are apostates.

Also Jew is a dual meaning word. One who follows Judaism and one of Jewish ancestory/ethnic heritage.

A Jew who is a athiest is still a Jew. But does not follow Judaism.

As far as what they are saying about following Torah, they are not, They are Christians. But instead of using the Greek "Kristos", the added the falvor of Hebrew, for annoited one.

Sites to look at is Aish.com, and probably a Christian site, to compare differences.

Would a Jew really be ethnic heritage? For example the ultra orthodox claim that being Jewish is of the soul. I'll give you a short example, my mother is a conservative convert, she was originally catholic so she became Jewish through conversion. My father was born Jewish and is a Cohen. He looks mediterranean but his ethnic background is apparently Hebrew (the Kohain gene). As a result I can move to Israel as I have a parent who is Jewish and I will be considered Jewish ethnically but religiously I will not as the Orthodox control religious ceremonys (weddings) and Orthodox "only" recognize a person born to a mother who is Orthodox Jewish I believe. There is also recognized Jews by category. Ashkenazi refers to one from mainly eastern europe I believe, Sephardi refers to those from Spain. and Mizrah (oriental) refers to one from middle eastern territories. There are also Ethiopian Jews which are part of the lost tribes. I'm not positive that a Jew can really be referred to as a race, possibly a nation like the US though the original Jews appear to be of Hebrew descent. However it's also very possible that due to interracial mixing that Jews do not all look the same as throughout the years Jews have lived among the gentiles.

[oldsoak]

Evil - thats a strong word to use. Evil is the opposite of good, and a good Jew is better neighbour than a bad gentile, even if the Jew is messianic. :-P .
Does it matter if someone tries to convert you ? We all try to "convert" others every day when we discuss an idea or a movie or haggle over buying a car - even here on militaryphotos. We are all at liberty to say "yes" or "no" - no one gets burnt alive for being orthodox or reformed, not even in Israel :-P

[S'13]

Would a Jew really be ethnic heritage? For example the ultra orthodox claim that being Jewish is of the soul. I'll give you a short example, my mother is a conservative convert, she was originally catholic so she became Jewish through conversion. My father was born Jewish and is a Cohen. He looks mediterranean but his ethnic background is apparently Hebrew (the Kohain gene). As a result I can move to Israel as I have a parent who is Jewish and I will be considered Jewish ethnically but religiously I will not as the Orthodox control religious ceremonys (weddings) and Orthodox "only" recognize a person born to a mother who is Orthodox Jewish I believe. There is also recognized Jews by category. Ashkenazi refers to one from mainly eastern europe I believe, Sephardi refers to those from Spain. and Mizrah (oriental) refers to one from middle eastern territories. There are also Ethiopian Jews which are part of the lost tribes. I'm not positive that a Jew can really be referred to as a race, possibly a nation like the US though the original Jews appear to be of Hebrew descent. However it's also very possible that due to interracial mixing that Jews do not all look the same as throughout the years Jews have lived among the gentiles.

Well there's no such thing as a "pure" ethnic group (all that brings is genetic defects). The majorty of people born Jewish have without a doubt a common origin/lineage one way or the other.
Our common ancestors are still the same People of Israel who settled the Land of Israel in Biblical times.

Like I already mentioned in other threads, the Jewish Nation is made up of people who are ethnically Jewish and non-ethnic Jews who are followers of the Jewish faith (who usally assimilate into the Jewish nation by marrying people of Jewish ethnic heritage).

Of course ethnicity is only a part of our common identety as a nation. It's the fact that throughout the Diaspora years Jews preserved their own unique cultural and religious identities(and though mixed with other nations yet never totaly assimilated), that is what kept us alive as a nation.

As for Mizrahim they fall into the category of Sephardim as their ancestors are Jews who were expelled to Middle Eastern countries during the Spanish Inquisition.

[kineret]

I support Jews for Blowjobs. and its sub-group, Jewish Girls for Better Blowjobs.

[PILMAN]

Well there's no such thing as a "pure" ethnic group (all that brings is genetic defects). The majorty of people born Jewish have without a doubt a common origin/lineage one way or the other.
Our common ancestors are still the same People of Israel who settled the Land of Israel in Biblical times.

Like I already mentioned in other threads, the Jewish Nation is made up of people who are ethnically Jewish and non-ethnic Jews who are followers of the Jewish faith (who usally assimilate into the Jewish nation by marrying people of Jewish ethnic heritage).

Of course ethnicity is only a part of our common identety as a nation. It's the fact that throughout the Diaspora years Jews preserved their own unique cultural and religious identities(and though mixed with other nations yet never totaly assimilated), that is what kept us alive as a nation.

As for Mizrahim they fall into the category of Sephardim as their ancestors are Jews who were expelled to Middle Eastern countries during the Spanish Inquisition.

How would one tell if he is Ashkenazi or Sephardic? My fathers family is all from Vladivostok, Russia originally but they don't really look Russian, he has a dark skin tone. He doesn't really look arabic he looks closer to Persian.

[S'13]

How would one tell if he is Ashkenazi or Sephardic? My fathers family is all from Vladivostok, Russia originally but they don't really look Russian, he has a dark skin tone. He doesn't really look arabic he looks closer to Persian.

90% (probably even more) of all eastern European Jews are Ashkenazi.

I know a Sepharadi Morrocan Jew who has pale skin and blue eyes (his sister is totaly dark :lol:).

But most of the time you can tell by the person's features

The best way to know is by the family name.

There are of course also cultural differences and some subtle differences in tradition.

[Hollis]

Pilman, go to Aish.com. I don't think this is the forum to discuss Halacha. Kineret is a good reason why not too.

[Crassus]

Jews for Jesus, what an joke.

Anyday I would rather have those 5.1 million jews living in Europe that Hitler massacered. In WWI jews living in Germany chosed to be germans. During WWII jews living in Finland chose to be finns.

As a Finn I say it again, let people believe what they want it is a nation what comes first.

ps. nearly 20% of Israeli citizens are arabs(?)

[dangerclose]

Since when is being a jew a religion? Are the atheist jews any less jews than orthodox? The nazis made no distinction. Sammy Davis Jr. converted to judaism but does that make him a jew? The number of messianic jews (jewish believers in Christ) around the world continue to grow. The christian jewish church in Jerusalem alone has grown exponentially ... none of them have ceased to be jews. And you might want to visit prisons, torture chambers and mass graves around the world before calling being handed a pamphlet 'persecution.'


The book of Zechariah in the Old Testament was written around 480 years before the birth of Christ.

"And I will pour on the house of David and on the inhabitants of Jerusalem the Spirit of grace and supplication; then they will look on Me whom they pierced. Yes, they will mourn for Him as one mourns for his only son, and grieve for Him as one grieves for a firstborn." - Zechariah 12:10

[2Sheds_Jackson]

My brother-in-law is a Jew For Jesus - or as he prefers to be called, a "Messianic Jew". I would prefer to call him that, while he was hermetically sealed into the bottom of a well with epoxy resin. p-) If he is any example to go by, I certainly wouldn't call them "evil" but "hellishly obnoxious" comes to mind.

[PILMAN]

Since when is being a jew a religion? Are the atheist jews any less jews than orthodox? The nazis made no distinction. Sammy Davis Jr. converted to judaism but does that make him a jew? The number of messianic jews (jewish believers in Christ) around the world continue to grow. The christian jewish church in Jerusalem alone has grown exponentially ... none of them have ceased to be jews. And you might want to visit prisons, torture chambers and mass graves around the world before calling being handed a pamphlet 'persecution.'


The book of Zechariah in the Old Testament was written around 480 years before the birth of Christ.

"And I will pour on the house of David and on the inhabitants of Jerusalem the Spirit of grace and supplication; then they will look on Me whom they pierced. Yes, they will mourn for Him as one mourns for his only son, and grieve for Him as one grieves for a firstborn." - Zechariah 12:10

No ones denying these messianic jews. You are born Jewish and your right they are technically treated the same as a Jew but it is their beliefs that other Jews don't agree with. From what I understand you cannot make aliyah if you are a messianic. Why? I don't know.

[Moledet]

No ones denying these messianic jews. You are born Jewish and your right they are technically treated the same as a Jew but it is their beliefs that other Jews don't agree with. From what I understand you cannot make aliyah if you are a messianic. Why? I don't know.
Because missionary of all religions is forbidden in Israel.

[TYRune]

I support Jews for Blowjobs. and its sub-group, Jewish Girls for Better Blowjobs.
Now,that's FUNNY!

[Ghostryder]

Judaism in in of itself rather annoyes me,

The fact that I am jewish doesn't help matters.

[PILMAN]

Judaism in in of itself rather annoyes me,

The fact that I am jewish doesn't help matters.

Your not alone. I'm not a follower of the religion but I still maintain my identity.

[W(M)D]

The reason these people are evil is that they are trying to destroy Judaism by missionary means. Hitler did it in body, the USSR, inquisition (ala 1492) and similar try to do this in spirit.
These people are no different from the latter category.
If they want to missionise, they should get off to Africa and Asia and continue their 'mission' there and leave the 12 million Jews left alone.

I am also in agreement with Kinneret, but I can understand his frustration coming from Netanya!!

[Kaplanr]

. . . I certainly wouldn't call them "evil" but "hellishly obnoxious" comes to mind.
Mosty accurate and scholarly assessment I've seen. They need a Hell month with the SEALs or Shayetet, mostly in the frog march position. About the same annoyance level as airport Hare Krishna. The ones in Israel (J4J) should be sent to Gaza to convert the truly needy.


I support Jews for Blowjobs. and its sub-group, Jewish Girls for Better Blowjobs.
That's unfortunately a very small club. Let me re-phrase that, those who are well-practiced and do it well, make for a small club.

[Firetxmi]

My brother-in-law is a Jew For Jesus - or as he prefers to be called, a "Messianic Jew". I would prefer to call him that, while he was hermetically sealed into the bottom of a well with epoxy resin. p-) If he is any example to go by, I certainly wouldn't call them "evil" but "hellishly obnoxious" comes to mind.

Beautiful post 2Sheds. I love it! :D

[haze99]

Gents, it seems you have missed the point!
If I understand the teachings correctly, Jesus is the One propheised in the Old Testament! (Book of Isaiah) He is the salvation of Israel (and all mankind!) For He said of himself, No man comes to Father, but by me. If He is not the Lamb of G_d slain for the world, then where do we go to sacrifice the animals? (As shown in the book of Leviticus?) Where is the Temple that I must take my sin offerings too? (I have sinned quite abit!) How do I live according to the laws of G_d and inherit eternal life?
If this Jesus is not the promised messiah? Then who is? And when is going to come to Israel?

[Hollis]

Gents, it seems you have missed the point!
If I understand the teachings correctly, Jesus is the One propheised in the Old Testament! (Book of Isaiah) He is the salvation of Israel (and all mankind!) For He said of himself, No man comes to Father, but by me. If He is not the Lamb of G_d slain for the world, then where do we go to sacrifice the animals? (As shown in the book of Leviticus?) Where is the Temple that I must take my sin offerings too? (I have sinned quite abit!) How do I live according to the laws of G_d and inherit eternal life?
If this Jesus is not the promised messiah? Then who is? And when is going to come to Israel?


I would really wish, this was not brought up. IF Jew believed as Christians, they would be Christians. IF Christians Believed like Jews, they would be Jews. There are differences. If you want a good Jewish opinion go to Aish.com. On this board, there are people who can not handle differences, (very helenistic). What will happen is, I am right and you are wrong, you F&&& Bla bla bla... arguements. To adovcate one or the other religion is to deminsh the other. I doubt anyone wants to hear that their religion is wrong.

[jd123]

People have their own choice to believe in what they believe. On the same ground, you have choice to not to listen, but you can't tell others not to talk. Jews is not a religion, so they are no different from other group of people. If they want to hear Jesus, then Jesus will bring them to him. Not all people are the chosen people.

[Nokkvi]

Not all people are the chosen people.

Chosen? Chosen for what?

[Hollis]

People have their own choice to believe in what they believe. On the same ground, you have choice to not to listen, but you can't tell others not to talk. Jews is not a religion, so they are no different from other group of people. If they want to hear Jesus, then Jesus will bring them to him. Not all people are the chosen people.

Ok, read what choosen mean, or read some of the earlier posts, or, Ok you are free to believe as you wish. Free choice, isn't it.

On your other points, People "selling" or "Missionizing" will seek to find the market or people, so it is not going to go away. I guess the idea is to respect other people's choices and if you don't agree, some tolerance is in order.

The few times I have had missionaries visit me, I enjoyed the talk. I don't mind people talking, it is when they use force to get you to change.

[Mastermind]

What an intriguing use of a Military forum....

[Moledet]

For the Israelis, a report about this evil cult on Yedioth Aharonot weekend edition
http://www.ynet.co.il/articles/0,7340,L-3579211,00.html

[Vorian]

If you're a Jew for Jesus and you're still reading this, you may well be thinking: This guy sounds riled.

I am not a Jew for Jesus but I am thinking the same thing.


The reason these people are evil is that they are trying to destroy Judaism by missionary means.

LOL?

[rwak9]

I am not a Jew for Jesus but I am thinking the same thing.



LOL?

There is nothing funny about it, it is the truth. Missionaries distort Jewish texts to "prove" that Jesus is the messiah predicted in the Torah. They target those who don't know enough about their own faith to reject such insanity as "being a completed Jew through the acceptance of Jesus." Which is utter incomprehensible blasphemy.

[Atlantic Friend]

The reason these people are evil is that they are trying to destroy Judaism by missionary means. Hitler did it in body, the USSR, inquisition (ala 1492) and similar try to do this in spirit.These people are no different from the latter category.

Fascinating ! So proposing a different faith to Jews - I guess we are talking about not very religious ones to begin with, else they would never convert - is akin to sending them to gas chambers ?

Under the same logic, shouldn't philosophical teaching be forbidden as well, as it too could lead to the destruction of Judaism. Critical thought sounds pretty dangerous too, maybe it should be dispensed with.

The last question that is bugging me is : what of the will of the people who are presently Jew but may have doubts, might want to convert ? Do they owe it to the other, more religious Jews to stay Jews even if that makes them miserable ?

I guess if converting them is an abominable crime, then their conversion is a betrayal of it. Shouldn't it be punished ?

[rwak9]

Its that they deceive people, robbing them blind of treasure they didn't realize they have.

[Vorian]

There is nothing funny about it, it is the truth. Missionaries distort Jewish texts to "prove" that Jesus is the messiah predicted in the Torah. They target those who don't know enough about their own faith to reject such insanity as "being a completed Jew through the acceptance of Jesus." Which is utter incomprehensible blasphemy.

Blasphemy (from your point only) doesn't make them evil.

[rwak9]

Blasphemy (from your point only) doesn't make them evil.


The notion that you have to accept Jesus to be a completed Jew is blasphemous in Judaism. They are preying on those that do not know otherwise, that do not know their own religion well enough to counter the ridiculously implausible, baseless and twisted argument that they attack with. After all, its not religious Jews or Hasids that you see converting.

[wildcat]

One day the Jews will accept Jesus as the Messiah. they been living in denial for 2000+ years.

[SBL]

The notion that you have to accept Jesus to be a completed Jew is blasphemous in Judaism. They are preying on those that do not know otherwise, that do not know their own religion well enough to counter the ridiculously implausible, baseless and twisted argument that they attack with. After all, its not religious Jews or Hasids that you see converting.
I reckon the converse is just as true for the "Jews for Jesus". It's up to the individual to educate his/herself.

[Stan187]

One day the Jews will accept Jesus as the Messiah. they been living in denial for 2000+ years.

I really hope that is sarcasm.

[seraosha]

There is nothing funny about it, it is the truth. Missionaries distort Jewish texts to "prove" that Jesus is the messiah predicted in the Torah. They target those who don't know enough about their own faith to reject such insanity as "being a completed Jew through the acceptance of Jesus." Which is utter incomprehensible blasphemy.

This is beginning to sound suspiciously like the Islamic view towards apostasy.

Just relax...if a Christian missionary leads someone to faith, it's not the end of the world, nor the end of Jewish culture. I'd love to have a Jewish missionary take the time to speak to me about the Jewish faith...but not actively seeking converts does little to grow a faith, wouldn't you agree?

[rwak9]

This is beginning to sound suspiciously like the Islamic view towards apostasy.

Just relax...if a Christian missionary leads someone to faith, it's not the end of the world, nor the end of Jewish culture. I'd love to have a Jewish missionary take the time to speak to me about the Jewish faith...but not actively seeking converts does little to grow a faith, wouldn't you agree?

We do not seek to convert because we believe that non-Jews can still be good people and don't automatically go to hell. Also, it is not easy to be Jewish and we make sure to impart that message to potential converts.

They aren't leading anyone to faith by proselytizing to Jews, they are leading them away. If they were so certain of the truth of their arguments, they would sit down and debate with our leaders honestly, without distorting and even inventing, our texts.

[khukuri]

The reason these people are evil is that they are trying to destroy Judaism by missionary means. Hitler did it in body, the USSR, inquisition (ala 1492) and similar try to do this in spirit.
These people are no different from the latter category.
If they want to missionise, they should get off to Africa and Asia and continue their 'mission' there and leave the 12 million Jews left alone.




Wow, just wow, so if I try to convert lets say a buddhis thats fine, If I try to do the same thing with a jew Im just like Hitler.

This antisemitism thingy is getting quite ridiculous.

[seraosha]

Leading non-believers away from what, exactly?

And yeah, this old thread belongs in OT

[Moledet]

Leading non-believers away from what, exactly?

And yeah, this old thread belongs in OT
We came here to live peacefully, without people trying to kill, force us into a different religion or culture. These people try to simply destroy the Jewish country, they find the weakest people financially-give them gifts or aid but it doesn't come for free, they need to sit and listen to them (what can they do? Kick away the people that just gave them a gift?) and they are excellent in brainwashing just like Scientologists.
Simply leave us alone to live our life according to our culture, we never ever attempted to hurt you-so why not leave us alone? Why bug and harass us for thousands of years?

[seraosha]

We came here to live peacefully, without people trying to kill, force us into a different religion or culture. These people try to simply destroy the Jewish country, they find the weakest people financially-give them gifts or aid but it doesn't come for free, they need to sit and listen to them (what can they do? Kick away the people that just gave them a gift?) and they are excellent in brainwashing just like Scientologists.
Simply leave us alone to live our life according to our culture, we never ever attempted to hurt you-so why not leave us alone? Why bug and harass us for thousands of years?

You have got to be kidding.

[Mr.Flint]

You have got to be kidding.
He is quite correct you know.
We jews do not proselyte, we respect the right, of people of other religions, to their religion. And taking into account the history, we dont like it when christians or muslims proselyte among us. It would be a simple courtesy not to do so.
(i dont mind Buddhists though)

A local Russian Orthodox priest, that i know, wanted to organize a religious dogma debate, with a rabbi, that i know.
The rabbi said "Sure, but what is there to debate?"

Jews for Jesus, are indeed a cult like Scientology.
Ive dealt with them and debated with them, individually they are nice people, with whom you can always have a good relationship, until it comes to their beliefs, and goals.
They ignore our history, and their methods are less than honest.
In the end they are nothing but ignorant zealots.

[Moledet]

You have got to be kidding.
No, I am not.
Why do you always try to ruin our culture? It's thousands of years old and didn't do you any wrong. We are trying to keep and protect it-this is why we built this country but you got to haunt us everywhere.

It reminds me of a story in Portugal when the king called all the Jews to gather in the town square promising them that they will be deported and instead sprayed them with water and told them that from now on they are Christians and they had to live in a lie.
There's no difference between trying to destroy our culture by murdering us like Hitler did or by converting us like the Inquisition (or its "enlightened-modern" version that is one and the same).

[Vorian]

He is quite correct you know.
We jews do not proselyte, we respect the right, of people of other religions, to their religion.



Or your religion dictates that only you are saved (Being Chosen and all) and everybody else be damned.

Those Messianic Jews are nothing more than religious people that share the belief (good or bad) that Jesus was the Messiah mentioned in the Jewish scripts and try to persuade others. They are not trying to destroy either your state or culture and comparing them with Hitler or Inquisition is at least laughable (there are other much more harsh and correct words to describe it).

You people should stop playing the victim card for everything. Not everyone is out there to destroy you. As long as Jews for Jesus don't use harmful means like Scientologists do, they should have every right to spread leaflets or talk to you in the streets. Don't like it? Decline politely and close your door. That's what I do with Jehova witnesses

[Hollis]

Or your religion dictates that only you are saved (Being Chosen and all) and everybody else be damned.

Those Messianic Jews are nothing more than religious people that share the belief (good or bad) that Jesus was the Messiah mentioned in the Jewish scripts and try to persuade others. They are not trying to destroy either your state or culture and comparing them with Hitler or Inquisition is at least laughable (there are other much more harsh and correct words to describe it).

You people should stop playing the victim card for everything. Not everyone is out there to destroy you. As long as Jews for Jesus don't use harmful means like Scientologists do, they should have every right to spread leaflets or talk to you in the streets. Don't like it? Decline politely and close your door. That's what I do with Jehova witnesses


I am trying to see how this fits in. Judaism is not a exclusive religion, as you mention in your first sentence. As Mr Flint mention they don't proselytize nor do they think others are doomed. BTW being chosen is not as you referred too. In some way it is burden and not a blessing.


Why don't you read more before you post BS.

Also Knock off the "you people BS".

[Vorian]

Oh, am I being anti-semite or racist for calling them "you people"? In my language it's not really demeaning.

[Moledet]

You people should stop playing the victim card for everything. Not everyone is out there to destroy you. As long as Jews for Jesus don't use harmful means like Scientologists do, they should have every right to spread leaflets or talk to you in the streets. Don't like it? Decline politely and close your door. That's what I do with Jehova witnesses
Really? If you are poor and these guys bring you food what are you going to tell them when they start brainwashing you?

Think of the consequences of these actions. It does ruin our culture, we are very few and become fewer everyday with Jews marrying goyim and raise their kids celebrating Christmas, not having a bar mitzva, not doing anything on Saturday (not even a family dinner), not celebrating any of the holidays, not lighting candles, etc... The reason I am here and many others is so that it will not happen, the reason my grandma survived the holocaust and came here is so that it won't happen, the reason my ancestors have gone through so much suffering wishing to return to this place is not so that the same zealots would continue haunting us here.
You convert this one person you don't simply effect him, you ruin a whole family that for them they just lost a son and the entire history of the family.

P.S.


Or your religion dictates that only you are saved (Being Chosen and all) and everybody else be damned.

It doesn't.

[Hollis]

Oh, am I being anti-semite or racist for calling them "you people"? In my language it's not really demeaning.


did I say that, maybe you need a holiday to improve your reading skill.

[Vorian]

did I say that, maybe you need a holiday to improve your reading skill.

I am going on holiday in two days anyway.


Really? If you are poor and these guys bring you food what are you going to tell them when they start brainwashing you?

Think of the consequences of these actions. It does ruin our culture, we are very few and become fewer everyday with Jews marrying goyim and raise their kids celebrating Christmas, not having a bar mitzva, not doing anything on Saturday (not even a family dinner), not celebrating any of the holidays, not lighting candles, etc... The reason I am here and many others is so that it will not happen, the reason my grandma survived the holocaust and came here is so that it won't happen, the reason my ancestors have gone through so much suffering wishing to return to this place is not so that the same zealots would continue haunting us here.
You convert this one person you don't simply effect him, you ruin a whole family that for them they just lost a son and the entire history of the family.

It sounds very sad but eventually all cultures and religions will fade away. Don't worry Jews won't disappear anytime soon. And if a person converts from his point of view he is not lost.

Just my opinion.

PS: Apologies for my comment on your religion. Myself I believe in nothing really, but from what I 've read about Judaism, they were critical of anybody associating with pagans. I apologise if I offended anyone.

[Hollis]

I am going on holiday in two days anyway.





Have a good holiday.

[seraosha]

No, I am not.
Why do you always try to ruin our culture? It's thousands of years old and didn't do you any wrong. We are trying to keep and protect it-this is why we built this country but you got to haunt us everywhere.

It reminds me of a story in Portugal when the king called all the Jews to gather in the town square promising them that they will be deported and instead sprayed them with water and told them that from now on they are Christians and they had to live in a lie.
There's no difference between trying to destroy our culture by murdering us like Hitler did or by converting us like the Inquisition (or its "enlightened-modern" version that is one and the same).

Just who the fvck do you think you are talking to? I can guarantee you are not talking to me, so tighten up your shot group, hero. I'm flabbergasted by your idiocy in making a correlation between proselytizing and xyklon-B.

I think I'm just going to walk away at this point, because you are unwittingly or possibly knowingly parroting the worst of the fundamentalist hate spewing salafi nut bags I've had the misfortune to encounter, regarding their hatred of Jews.

Good day.

[Calanen]

We came here to live peacefully, without people trying to kill, force us into a different religion or culture. These people try to simply destroy the Jewish country, they find the weakest people financially-give them gifts or aid but it doesn't come for free, they need to sit and listen to them (what can they do? Kick away the people that just gave them a gift?) and they are excellent in brainwashing just like Scientologists.
Simply leave us alone to live our life according to our culture, we never ever attempted to hurt you-so why not leave us alone? Why bug and harass us for thousands of years?

I normally agree with Moldet, but not on this point. If any crazy wackjobs want to prosyletize, say they are Jews for Jesus, or Jews want to convert Jews for Jesus followers or Muslims or anyone else - why shouldnt they be allowed to have a go? The reason I don't like Scientology is that it financially ruins people - if these Jews for Jesus people are doing the same, then that is bad. But just telling people what they believe - big deal. Let people make up their own minds.

[Pezy]

I would really wish, this was not brought up. IF Jew believed as Christians, they would be Christians. IF Christians Believed like Jews, they would be Jews. There are differences. If you want a good Jewish opinion go to Aish.com. On this board, there are people who can not handle differences, (very helenistic). What will happen is, I am right and you are wrong, you F&&& Bla bla bla... arguements. To adovcate one or the other religion is to deminsh the other. I doubt anyone wants to hear that their religion is wrong.

LoL
After 2+ years it was proved that it's the other way around. p-)

[Moledet]

Just who the fvck do you think you are talking to? I can guarantee you are not talking to me, so tighten up your shot group, hero. I'm flabbergasted by your idiocy in making a correlation between proselytizing and xyklon-B.

I think I'm just going to walk away at this point, because you are unwittingly or possibly knowingly parroting the worst of the fundamentalist hate spewing salafi nut bags I've had the misfortune to encounter, regarding their hatred of Jews.

Good day.
It's one and the same.

I prefer enemies like Hamas that it's clear that they are enemies than Evangelists (that's what Messianic Jews are) that put on a show of supporting us but actually wish our destruction.

[Calanen]

It's one and the same.

I prefer enemies like Hamas that it's clear that they are enemies than Evangelists (that's what Messianic Jews are) that put on a show of supporting us but actually wish our destruction.

I have to say, I dont know enough about them to know exactly what they wish - for sure, but isnt there position just that Jesus was the Messiah, and the rest of the Jews are still waiting? I'm not sure that it is the destruction of Jews per se that they are seeking.

[Stan187]

I have to say, I dont know enough about them to know exactly what they wish - for sure, but isnt there position just that Jesus was the Messiah, and the rest of the Jews are still waiting? I'm not sure that it is the destruction of Jews per se that they are seeking.

Not destruction of Jews as a people. What he meant by that was the destruction of Judaism, because in the end they are all expected to convert and believe in Christ as their savior, you know in the End of Days.

[loganinkosovo]

All I have to say is just wait til the Mormons and the Jehovah Witnesses start showing up at your door! rofl

[oldsoak]

Poor things - they havent a clue :lol:

[Calanen]

Not destruction of Jews as a people. What he meant by that was the destruction of Judaism, because in the end they are all expected to convert and believe in Christ as their savior, you know in the End of Days.

But couldnt you say that about any religion? They all think they are right, and all will try to convert other people to their point of view. I dont see anything particularly sinister in it.

[Stan187]

But couldnt you say that about any religion? They all think they are right, and all will try to convert other people to their point of view. I dont see anything particularly sinister in it.

Be nice to followers of Judaism because they eventually either accept our savior or burn in hell? Not sinister perhaps, but I can understand how it does not sit well with some.

[mudbunny]

I think this whole "woe is me" attitude from the people of Israel is wearing very thin with the Western world, imo.
You wanna assume a defensive posture against anything and everything then go right ahead; I'm about to the point where I'm totally content sitting back and watching on CNN as your enemies and their armies pour over your borders.
And who gave this sect the name "Jews for Jesus"?
Was it this group or main followers of Judaism?

[Moledet]

But couldnt you say that about any religion? They all think they are right, and all will try to convert other people to their point of view. I dont see anything particularly sinister in it.
No, you can't.
You won't see anyone trying to convert you to Judaism, the only way you can do it is to try to convince a rabbi to let you into a year long program (sometimes even 3 years) of studying Judaism and then if you pass the knowledge test and get circumcised you will become Jewish.
Only people that want to do it are accepted.

[mudbunny]

We came here to live peacefully, without people trying to kill, force us into a different religion or culture. These people try to simply destroy the Jewish country, they find the weakest people financially-give them gifts or aid but it doesn't come for free, they need to sit and listen to them (what can they do? Kick away the people that just gave them a gift?) and they are excellent in brainwashing just like Scientologists.
Simply leave us alone to live our life according to our culture, we never ever attempted to hurt you-so why not leave us alone? Why bug and harass us for thousands of years?

That just sounds to me like your country is simply dealing with the same types of things that the rest of the world has dealt with for centuries; it's called the evolution of a country, or state.
You (Israel) wanna build giant walls around your borders and isolate yourself from the world, then go right ahead, nobody will miss you.

[Stan187]

With attitudes like yours Mudbunny, they'd probably be better off kicked J4J outta the country altogether.

[Mr.Flint]

I think this whole "woe is me" attitude from the people of Israel is wearing very thin with the Western world, imo.
1. Who made you a representative of the Western world?
2. People like you aint helping it, you know. They hold us to higher standards than anyone else, and then act surprised when we go defensive.



You wanna assume a defensive posture against anything and everything then go right ahead; I'm about to the point where I'm totally content sitting back and watching on CNN as your enemies and their armies pour over your borders.
Why thank you bunghole, i could answer you in the same manner, but why bother? you are one of these pricks who always have this "woe is me" and "how dare they are" mentality in regards to jews...




And who gave this sect the name "Jews for Jesus"?
Was it this group or main followers of Judaism?

They gave it to themselves.

[MichaelF]

No, you can't.
You won't see anyone trying to convert you to Judaism, the only way you can do it is to try to convince a rabbi to let you into a year long program (sometimes even 3 years) of studying Judaism and then if you pass the knowledge test and get circumcised you will become Jewish.
Only people that want to do it are accepted.

Which is OK, as that is how rabbinical Judaism, in it's current form, works. No prob.

Other religions (in fact, both the other Abrahamic faiths, and a big chunk of the rest) mandate proselytism by their followers.
Most have progressed to the level of information kiosks and internet sites, with the interpersonal proselytism being accomplished on a much lower-key "hey, Bob, want to come to Church with us?"-basis.
Some, I won't mention any (*cough*Jehovah'sWitnesses*cough*) have not, and still prefer to ambush people in the parking lot of Albertsons, while my hands are full of groceries.......but I digress.

Part of civil society is humoring the people mentioned above. Within limits, they have the right to practice their Faith's tenets, including attempts to convince you to join them.

Conversion by the sword (or forced marriage, etc), as practiced by some.....people....is no longer acceptable in most civilizations. That you don't have to tolerate.

Baptists (for example) commit no crime (real or imagined) when they try to convert me (a Xmas/Easter Catholic), and they don't commit one when they try to convert my Jewish neighbour. Regardless of their ethnic/religious history.
IOW, crying "don't you know what Jews have suffered", etc, is not really a valid reason to expect to be treated differently than everyone else.

People of one religion might try to convince (within the lawful use of persuasion) someone of another religion to join up. In that, Jews are in the same boat with the rest of us.


OTOH, if the "Jews For Jesus" are acting illicitly (as some cults, like Scientology, do), feel free to prosecute them.

[Stan187]

Part of civil society is humoring the people mentioned above. Within limits, they have the right to practice their Faith's tenets, including attempts to convince you to join them.


I consider other people trying to convert me not as someone's right in civil society, but as an imposition upon me as a member of that civil society. Many people I know, mostly Americans, feel quite the same.

[MichaelF]

I consider other people trying to convert me not as someone's right in civil society, but as an imposition upon me as a member of that civil society. Many people I know, mostly Americans, feel quite the same.

Hence the caveat "within limits". The line between proselytization (as allowed by free speech, assembly and practice of religion) and harassment is an ongoing legal matter.

[brainplay]

But just telling people what they believe - big deal. Let people make up their own minds.

6 pages and this one sentence pretty much sums up everything while pretty much dealing with the opposition.

Adults should make up their own mind. Whether they are (in your opinion) making a bad choice or not its still their choice. The only thing wrong with it is when their missionaries sometimes wake you up at 9am on a Saturday morning. (and they always seem to bring the hottest babes with them too as baitrofl )

[nagant_m44]

There is nothing funny about it, it is the truth. Missionaries distort Jewish texts to "prove" that Jesus is the messiah predicted in the Torah. They target those who don't know enough about their own faith to reject such insanity as "being a completed Jew through the acceptance of Jesus." Which is utter incomprehensible blasphemy.

its absolutely hilarious simply because the guy is having a tantrum instead of just saying "no, thanks."

[nagant_m44]

No, I am not.
Why do you always try to ruin our culture? It's thousands of years old and didn't do you any wrong. We are trying to keep and protect it-this is why we built this country but you got to haunt us everywhere.

It reminds me of a story in Portugal when the king called all the Jews to gather in the town square promising them that they will be deported and instead sprayed them with water and told them that from now on they are Christians and they had to live in a lie.
There's no difference between trying to destroy our culture by murdering us like Hitler did or by converting us like the Inquisition (or its "enlightened-modern" version that is one and the same).

right, Jews for jesus are forcing you to convert. You have no choice in the matter. Also, you are forced to listen to them. :roll:

[wildcat]

Just as a by the by, my church has a no missionary Jew policy, meaning, if some Jewish person want to join then fine, but not to seek and convert. They made this agreement with Israel, and in return they have a section of there University in Jerusalem, and a memorial spiritual place on the Mount of Olives.

[Calanen]

I consider other people trying to convert me not as someone's right in civil society, but as an imposition upon me as a member of that civil society. Many people I know, mostly Americans, feel quite the same.

Well if someone is breaking into your house to convert you then yeah - but if they just tell you their point of view so what? You tell them its BS or walk away. Whats the big deal?

[Kletterbuxe]

can´t stand the religious mumbojumbo...

[Gulag]

can´t stand the religion...

Fixed ;-).

[Stan187]

Hence the caveat "within limits". The line between proselytization (as allowed by free speech, assembly and practice of religion) and harassment is an ongoing legal matter.


In our United States it is an ongoing legal matter. However, in Israel, proselytization is an illegal matter.

[Kletterbuxe]

After rereading this complete bull**** thread I really belive that the only thing in the world that is able to make an intelligent person sound like (or be) a retarded moron is religion.

[RSone]

The Nutcasery is strong with this Flopix!

http://i214.photobucket.com/albums/cc258/RsShogun/tinfoil_hat_wearers_for_bush.jpg
Oh Noez, them evangelicz is out to get us111one111!!!

[5pl1n73r]

They aren't leading anyone to faith by proselytizing to Jews, they are leading them away. If they were so certain of the truth of their arguments, they would sit down and debate with our leaders honestly, without distorting and even inventing, our texts.

Yeah but they don't know that. They believe they are right just like you believe you are. They believe they are helping you. I know many of them who DO sit down and talk to Jewish leaders. And distorting and inventing texts? Like what? (Honest question not meant to be read condescendingly)


Really? If you are poor and these guys bring you food what are you going to tell them when they start brainwashing you?

Because as we all know every messianic Jew goes through brainwashing 101 before they can go out and harass homeless people.


Think of the consequences of these actions. It does ruin our culture, we are very few and become fewer everyday with Jews marrying goyim and raise their kids celebrating Christmas, not having a bar mitzva, not doing anything on Saturday (not even a family dinner), not celebrating any of the holidays, not lighting candles, etc... The reason I am here and many others is so that it will not happen, the reason my grandma survived the holocaust and came here is so that it won't happen, the reason my ancestors have gone through so much suffering wishing to return to this place is not so that the same zealots would continue haunting us here.
You convert this one person you don't simply effect him, you ruin a whole family that for them they just lost a son and the entire history of the family.

I can see you having a problem with people trying to convert you to Catholicism, Buddhism, atheism, Islam etc. But to 'convert' you to a messianic Jew? The ONLY thing you need to change is instead of waiting for the messiah to come you believe he already has. You are still every bit Jewish as you were before... in fact every messianic Jew I know celebrates Hanukah NOT Christmas they have bar mitzvah, They 'shomrim Shabbat' keep the Sabbath, they celebrate ALL the holidays and fast when all the other devout Jews do. They also join the military and everyone one of them I have met or heard of has always requested to be a combatant.

Let me ask you a question. I assume you know the Bible? So I can assume you know that one of the prophesied signs of the messiah is that he will be rejected by his own people. So you don't believe it was Jesus. That is your right. But when your messiah Does come, according to the Bible, many of his own will reject him. So let’s say he comes and you find him and are overjoyed that your messiah has come... and yet your friends and neighbors don't see it. They don't believe as you and they continue to practice traditional Judaism as if the Messiah had never come. Are you still a Jew? You have found the Jewish Messiah! But there are those who don't believe and are practicing traditional Judaism so that means you are no longer a Jew because you found the Jewish Messiah?!

Now you look me in the eye and tell me that it is okay for Orthodox Jews to go and take the Hebrew New Testament away from Messianic Jews and have a book burning in the middle of the street oganized by Uzi Aharon the deputy mayor of Or Yehuda and it's not okay for one Jew to turn to another and say "rejoice! Our messiah has already come!"

So what if he is wrong about the identity of the Messiah? Does this mean he is trying to destroy your way of life?

Further, if you are wondering how Messianic Jews can blatantly ignore some of the prophecies that the Messiah must fulfill, which Jesus did not, I.E. Rebuilding temple and returning the Jews from exile, and still believe he is the one prophesied about you can find out here.
httP://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ujYH6H4z6Oc

OT: Wow. NOT how I expected my first post here to be. I signed up to talk about tanks and blowing sh*t up! Oh well, you got to start somewhere. :)

[Calanen]

http://www.youtube.com/v/Gvi7rfCXH5c&NR=1

A former Jew who converted to Islam interviewed by Dawkins.

[Stan187]

http://www.youtube.com/v/Gvi7rfCXH5c&NR=1

A former Jew who converted to Islam interviewed by Dawkins.

Not exactly a former Jew. If you are born a Jew, you die a Jew. Perhaps a former follower of Judaism, now a convert and follower of Islam.

[Abaddon]

We in the west have become targets for Islamic terrorists due to our support for Israel. We in the west have sent tens, if not hundreds, of billions of dollars to Israel in economic and military aid.

Einther you want to be a part of the world or you don't. You can't take advantage of our kindness and generosity and then when it comes to being accepting of our cultures and ideals tell us to screw off. :cantbeli:

I'm fairly certain your views are in the minority, though, and I hope for Israel's continued survival and its eventual integration into the modern, civilized, Western World. :hug:

[Stan187]

Einther you want to be a part of the world or you don't. You can't take advantage of our kindness and generosity and then when it comes to being accepting of our cultures and ideals tell us to screw off.

Jews for Jesus is part our Western culture?

[Abaddon]

Jews for Jesus is part our Western culture?


No, but tolerance is, along with freedom of choice (Jews for Jesus aren't forcibly converting Jews), perhaps you missed that memo. :)

[Mr.Flint]

No, but tolerance is, along with freedom of choice (Jews for Jesus aren't forcibly converting Jews), perhaps you missed that memo. :)
Proselyting is not freedom of choice.
IMHO even in the west Proselyting is a violation of the right to privacy, freedom of religious choice, and tolerance ("my religion is better than yours so convert now") and therefore should be banned.
Whoever is unsure of his belief should head into the closest religious centre. there is absolutely no need for missionaries, who are nothing but harassers...

And you did not became targets to Islamic terrorism because of Israel.
Learn the history of your own country before coming here with ridiculous statements
:bash:

[Stan187]

No, but tolerance is, along with freedom of choice (Jews for Jesus aren't forcibly converting Jews), perhaps you missed that memo. :)

Scientology brainwashes people, pretty much. Should that be within our freedoms?

Frankly, freedom is a two way street. Freedom of choice, yes. But I value my freedom to be left alone without anyone trying to convert me as well.

[Bia]

Well heres the contradiction, ok so esentially if your messianic your born Jewish and think Jesus (or Yeshua) is the messiah yet still follow Torah. Isn't that esentially against Torah?

Not if one decides to stop following it and chooses another path....no.

I dont see the problem here with this issue... even under the most dogmatic structure around....any one human can follow any path one desires. Mind reading machines arent real so I think we're safe to think to ourselves still.

[Bia]

Proselyting is not freedom of choice.
IMHO even in the west Proselyting is a violation of the right to privacy

Whoever is unsure of his belief should head into the closest religious centre. there is absolutely no need for missionaries, who are nothing but harassers..


But I value my freedom to be left alone without anyone trying to convert me as well.

Are you children that cant tell someone NO?
Or can you not think for yourself enough to actually fear anothers mantra?

ROFL you people crack me up.

When retards come at me with their "god".... I "turn the other cheek" and walk away.
:P

[nagant_m44]

Proselyting is not freedom of choice.
IMHO even in the west Proselyting is a violation of the right to privacy, freedom of religious choice, and tolerance ("my religion is better than yours so convert now") and therefore should be banned.
Whoever is unsure of his belief should head into the closest religious centre. there is absolutely no need for missionaries, who are nothing but harassers...

And you did not became targets to Islamic terrorism because of Israel.
Learn the history of your own country before coming here with ridiculous statements
:bash:

how is it not freedom of choice? Does jews for jesus put a gun to your head now?

[Mr.Flint]

Are you children that cant tell someone NO?
Or can you not think for yourself enough to actually fear anothers mantra?

I equate that to a "No calls list"
As people have a right not to be harrased by telemarketers, i demand the same right against missionaries.
They are annoying, they ignore all signs telling them to stay away. they are a nuisance.


how is it not freedom of choice? Does jews for jesus put a gun to your head now?
Sigh, im aware of the fact that you are being thick on purpose, but ill explain it to you:

Proselyting
1) implies that the missionary's religion is better than the targeted person, therefore thats an act of intolerance - the missionary cannot stand the fact that someone has different views, he implies that he knows better.
2) violation of the right to privacy, and nothing but a form of harassment.

Jews for Jesus, are worse than typical missionaries, because they target specifically Jews.
Moreover they have all the hallmarks of a cult, because they target usually the vulnerable, the mentally ill, single parents, Runaways, poor people etc.

[nagant_m44]

I equate that to a "No calls list"
As people have a right not to be harrased by telemarketers, i demand the same right against missionaries.
They are annoying, they ignore all signs telling them to stay away. they are a nuisance.


Sigh, im aware of the fact that you are being thick on purpose, but ill explain it to you:

Proselyting
1) implies that the missionary's religion is better than the targeted person, therefore thats an act of intolerance - the missionary cannot stand the fact that someone has different views, he implies that he knows better.
2) violation of the right to privacy, and nothing but a form of harassment.

Jews for Jesus, are worse than typical missionaries, because they target specifically Jews.
Moreover they have all the hallmarks of a cult, because they target usually the vulnerable, the mentally ill, single parents, Runaways, poor people etc.

... How are they violating your privacy? Seriously, is it so hard to say "no" to people?

[JJC]

In NYC Jews for Jesus actual, Evangelical Christian group, have been targeting Russian Jewish immigrants for years. They opened churches that look like synagogues where you won't see crosses or direct reference to Jesus as god, but over time they infuse Christian faith. There is a guy named Rabbi Tovia Singer who deals with these Jews for Jesus guys, on national level, who prey on secular or "lost" Jews like those of former Soviet Union.
If you are a Jew this can be offensive because they are preying on your clueless people and in a way destroying Jewish cultural and religious identity. In U.S. 51% of Jewish population is intermarried and assimilated as is, so one can understand why someone like Jews for Jesus can be seen as "evil." lol

[Mr.Flint]

... How are they violating your privacy? Seriously, is it so hard to say "no" to people?
So are you saying you pick up every telemarketer call? and it doesnt bother you even a bit? and that you are not going to subscribe to a "do not call list"?

For me its not the problem of saying no, its a problem of not being bothered by them at all.
For other people on whom they prey, its a problem of not being able to say no, or even knowing that they can say no.

[5pl1n73r]

Proselyting
1) implies that the missionary's religion is better than the targeted person, therefore thats an act of intolerance - the missionary cannot stand the fact that someone has different views, he implies that he knows better.
2) violation of the right to privacy, and nothing but a form of harassment.

Anyone who cares enough to discuss their ideas with you will consider themselves correct in the matter or they wouldn't bother talking about it. Just like I assume you consider your view in the current discussion is the correct one. If you enter into a discussion with someone on ANY subject with conflicting views each party is obviously implying that they are correct and you are not.

When you drive by an orthodox Jew on the Sabbath and they yell 'Shabbas' at you are they not implying that they know better?


Jews for Jesus, are worse than typical missionaries, because they target specifically Jews.
Moreover they have all the hallmarks of a cult, because they target usually the vulnerable, the mentally ill, single parents, Runaways, poor people etc.

You keep saying that they target the poor and handicapped etc... And no one has contested this. They just take your word for it? I assume you have seen this first hand?

Let me lay it out like this. Any religious organization will have outreach programs. It is what is 'right' by any standards. You help the needy with food and clothing etc. To say they are being 'targeted' well yes, they are not going to go to a rich mans door and give him free food and clothing. However I have been on and seen these kinds of excursions. When I was in the military they sent us to take food to some of the poorer families in our area for Passover and we ran across some Messianic Jews doing the same. They had volunteered their time and money to take food to these people.

All they ever said at any of the houses was 'Chag sameach' happy holiday. Once they actually mentioned what they believed in. You know why? Someone asked them why every year it was the same people that came back and helped her out during the holidays and the man said that they were Messianic Jews and they believed it was the right thing to do. The lady said well thank you and that was it. He didn't say any more to her.

Every single time I have run across them outside 'missionizing' which in the 22 years I have been in Israel was like maybe 8 times. They come up to me and either hand me a pamphlet and say nothing and walk on or they ask if they can talk to me about Jesus or Messianic Jews. Whenever I would say no they would immediately say have a nice day and move on. Even the man ranting about them in the beginning article said that all they did was come up hand them a flyer and say good day.

So I honestly can't figure this crowd out. Why such a hatred for these people? In a previous post another person commented on how even half of the few Jews that were left didn't practice Judaism anymore. They never came together on the Sabbath; they didn't light the holiday candles, or fast when the time came. And yet these Messianic Jews do all of that because they ARE Jewish. As I pointed out the only difference is that they believe the Messiah already came. So what's with the hatred? This all just seems too similar to the hatred that started back in Germany.

It's a dangerous path if you start believing things about someone else that are fabricated and manipulated by groups that feel threatened by them. That's how the Nazis did it...

[Mr.Flint]

Anyone who cares enough to discuss their ideas with you will consider themselves correct in the matter or they wouldn't bother talking about it. Just like I assume you consider your view in the current discussion is the correct one. If you enter into a discussion with someone on ANY subject with conflicting views each party is obviously implying that they are correct and you are not.

When you drive by an orthodox Jew on the Sabbath and they yell 'Shabbas' at you are they not implying that they know better?

They do, who said that i agree with them? :)



You keep saying that they target the poor and handicapped etc... And no one has contested this. They just take your word for it? I assume you have seen this first hand?

Let me lay it out like this. Any religious organization will have outreach programs. It is what is 'right' by any standards. You help the needy with food and clothing etc. To say they are being 'targeted' well yes, they are not going to go to a rich mans door and give him free food and clothing. However I have been on and seen these kinds of excursions. When I was in the military they sent us to take food to some of the poorer families in our area for Passover and we ran across some Messianic Jews doing the same. They had volunteered their time and money to take food to these people.

All they ever said at any of the houses was 'Chag sameach' happy holiday. Once they actually mentioned what they believed in. You know why? Someone asked them why every year it was the same people that came back and helped her out during the holidays and the man said that they were Messianic Jews and they believed it was the right thing to do. The lady said well thank you and that was it. He didn't say any more to her.

Every single time I have run across them outside 'missionizing' which in the 22 years I have been in Israel was like maybe 8 times. They come up to me and either hand me a pamphlet and say nothing and walk on or they ask if they can talk to me about Jesus or Messianic Jews. Whenever I would say no they would immediately say have a nice day and move on. Even the man ranting about them in the beginning article said that all they did was come up hand them a flyer and say good day.

So I honestly can't figure this crowd out. Why such a hatred for these people? In a previous post another person commented on how even half of the few Jews that were left didn't practice Judaism anymore. They never came together on the Sabbath; they didn't light the holiday candles, or fast when the time came. And yet these Messianic Jews do all of that because they ARE Jewish. As I pointed out the only difference is that they believe the Messiah already came. So what's with the hatred? This all just seems too similar to the hatred that started back in Germany.

It's a dangerous path if you start believing things about someone else that are fabricated and manipulated by groups that feel threatened by them. That's how the Nazis did it...
Oh dear, the Nazi card....
You know you just lost the entire argument by pulling that one out.

[5pl1n73r]

They do, who said that i agree with them? :)


Oh dear, the Nazi card....
You know you just lost the entire argument by pulling that one out.

Wha? What warped rules of discussion are these? If we cannot learn from our own history...

I am not in this to ‘win’ I simply wish to impart my first hand experience with these people to whoever is out there who seems to hate them for no reason greater then that you heard they did things that would have made you mad.

The Nazis are simply the most prominent group that used that tactic and got the most known end result. I am sure that other groups have done the same. They just don't come to mind.

But I have been handed tracts by Orthodox Jews blatantly lying about the involvement of these people in things again and again that were simply not true. And why did they do it? Simply to inflame the public against them. So that an unsuspecting public will be frightened into hating something that they can't be bothered to look into themselves to see if there are any truths behind the accusations.

As an Israeli citizen and a Jew there is nothing that saddens me more than this kind of thing because it reflects the darkest parts of our own history. If anyone should know better it should be us.

[orionhawk]

Wha? What warped rules of discussion are these? If we cannot learn from our own history...
he was referring to this: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Godwin%27s_Law

however, I don't think it applies here, if for no other reason than that, if I am not mistaken, the original article definitely violated Godwin's Law.

I think the author of this article needs to look back through history, and check his definition of "evil".

[orionhawk]

descendants of the Jews Hitler didn't get the chance to kill
ah, there it is.

[Skutatos]

Atheists also like to tell people the error of their ways, although usually in a much more abrasive manner.

[nagant_m44]

So are you saying you pick up every telemarketer call? and it doesnt bother you even a bit? and that you are not going to subscribe to a "do not call list"?

For me its not the problem of saying no, its a problem of not being bothered by them at all.
For other people on whom they prey, its a problem of not being able to say no, or even knowing that they can say no.

no, in fact they don't bother me. I pick it up, and if they are selling something i don't want, i just hang up. How can you not know you can say know, when they are basically selling you something as well?

[Dan2004]

I pray to the CSM. For He is all seeing and all knowing.

And one way or another, He will show you the way......p-)

[Bia]

So are you saying you pick up every telemarketer call? and it doesnt bother you even a bit? and that you are not going to subscribe to a "do not call list"?I answer all calls. When it is someone I dont want to speak to I say, "I'm not intrested thanks bye"
So far.... it has worked 100% of the time and its never hurt me.
Shocking huh?


This also applies to jesus door knockers.....I politely tell them no thanks. It works well.


For me its not the problem of saying no, its a problem of not being bothered by them at all.Not everyone is hyper sensitive.
Shocking huh?



For other people on whom they prey, its a problem of not being able to say no, or even knowing that they can say no. Prey? heheh... you are a sensitive one.
Not shocking :P

[aed1980]

... How are they violating your privacy? Seriously, is it so hard to say "no" to people?

So you are ok with drug dealers then??? right????
last time i checked they didnt put the coke in your nose

[nagant_m44]

So you are ok with drug dealers then??? right????
last time i checked they didnt put the coke in your nose

so you're comparing Christianity to illegal drugs?:cantbeli:

[LaoSexMachine]

Why 'Jews for Jesus' is evil


No less "evil" then the people who advocate the destruction of Israel and thier supporters. ME= Just fvcking forget about it.

[aed1980]

so you're comparing Christianity to illegal drugs?:cantbeli:

nope, im saying that using your logic jews for jesus, has the same right as a coke dealer. Have you ever seen a dealer that puts the coke in your nose???

[nagant_m44]

nope, im saying that using your logic jews for jesus, has the same right as a coke dealer. Have you ever seen a dealer that puts the coke in your nose???

no, the logic you're using is dopey simply because drug dealers are peddling an illegal substance.

[Bia]

nope, im saying that using your logic jews for jesus, has the same right as a coke dealer. Have you ever seen a dealer that puts the coke in your nose???Your point is obvious, and you're correct... it's all about personal choice....... but your use of language above is rather.... that of a simpleton I'm pretty sure how people here see it.

Eloquence in speaking is something I too am trying to improve...
:P

[aed1980]

im talking they are targeting fragile people, same as drug dealers.

[PeterRJG]

You Jooze need to get your own back the way Kevin Bloody Wilson did. Do some door-knocking of your own!

http://www.lyricskeeper.com/kevin_bloody_wilson-lyrics/227838-festival_of_light-lyrics.htm