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Silent_Hunter
05-26-2006, 01:05 AM
DefRev Exclusive: KAC Introduces 6mm PDW for Special Operations Applications
Posted on Wednesday, May 24 @ 17:58:47 PDT by davidc (http://www.defensereview.com/)
http://www.defensereview.com/images/topics/avatarpdw.jpg (http://www.defensereview.com/modules.php?name=News&new_topic=29) by David Crane
david at defensereview.com
Knight's Armament Company (KAC) (http://www.knightarmco.com/) has just (formally) introduced a 6mm (6x35mm) PDW (Personal Defense Weapon) with AR-15/M16 controls for the Mil/LE market (tentatively) called the "CQB" that looks like it would be ideal for CQB/CQC (Close Quarters Battle/Close Quarters Combat) and military PSD (Personal Security Detail/Personal Security Detachment)/Executive Protection applications, including vehicle-borne operations. The new weapon was formally introduced at the NDIA Small Arms Symposium in Albuquerque, New Mexico. However, that's not the first time the new weapon/ammo package was shown. A KAC (http://www.knightarmco.com/) official actually showed DefenseReview a prototype CQB PDW confidentially at SHOT Show (http://www.shotshow.org/) 2006 in Las Vegas back in February on the condition that we would not discuss or write about the new weapon. This was tough on us, since this weapon system is hands-down the single most interesting and intriguing item DefRev saw and handled at the show. Because of the secrecy involved, I jokingly came up with the code name "The Gadget" (referring to the prototype weapon) while talking with KAC officials at their booth, a nod to the Manhattan Project (atomic bomb project during WWII). By the way, "The Gadget" weighs 4.5 lbs (4 lbs, 8 oz.).
Defense Review was told that the KAC (http://www.knightarmco.com/) 6x35mm PDW cartridge weighs approx. 65 grains and yields 848 ft.-lbs of muzzle energy at 2425 fps out of the CQB's 10-inch barrel vs. 5.56x45mm M855 ball's reported 776 ft.-lbs of energy (unconfirmed/unverified) out of an equivalent-length (10") barreled M4/M4A1 CQB subcarbine/SBR (Short-Barreled Rifle). Even though the muzzle energy generated is higher, KAC claims that the CQB generates 40% less recoil compared to a 5.56mm AR-15/M16 subcarbine/SBR. To give an idea of how the KAC CQB PDW/6x35mm cartridge combo stacks up against other PDW/ammo packages, it's been reported to DefenseReview that the...



standard FNH SS190 5.7x28mm round (http://www.fnhusa.com/contents/tw_57x28system.htm) creates 390 ft-lbs out of a FNH P90 Submachine Gun/PDW (http://www.fnhusa.com/contents/tw_p90.htm) (reported 10.2" barrel), and the standard HK Defense 4.6x30mm round (http://www.hkdefense.us/pages/military-le/smg/mp7/mp7.html) creates 310 ft-lbs out of the HK MP7A1 PDW (http://www.hkdefense.us/pages/military-le/smg/mp7/mp7.html) (7" barrel). When asked about the CQB's combat/lethality envelope, a KAC official told Defense Review that the CQB/6x35mm package is accurate and lethal out to 300 meters. The CQB will deliver sub-2" MOA.

The KAC CQB PDW is utilizes a dual-piston system and is gas-operated. The recoil spring runs the full length of the upper receiver, right up the middle between the two gas pistons. Bolt system is AKM/Kalashnikov style. The CQB utilizes a monolithic upper receiver and full-curve magazine. The barrel has been lightened with a patented dimpling process, which gives the barrel an interesting look.


According to the KAC company official we spoke with, KAC basically pulled out all the stops in creating the CQB, and the per-unit cost is likely to reflect that. "It's like an F1 race car. We busted out all the tricks on this weapon to get the performance that we've gotten. We really pushed the limits, so that aspect's gonna' be a cost driver," the official told us.

When I handled the CQB at SHOT Show, I immediately felt a very wide grin forming on my face. While the gun felt somewhat toy-like because of its light weight and balance, it also exuded high quality. Unfortunately, we weren't able to get the weapon to the range. Until we can do that, we can't endorse it--but we can certainly report on it. DefenseReview will say this: Due to it's 6mm cartridge, the KAC CQB PDW would appear to be the most lethal personal defense weapon (PDW) system that's been fully-developed to date. The only possible exception to this that DefRev is aware of is the Saab Bofors CBJ-MS PDW (http://www.military.com/soldiertech/0,14632,Soldiertech_HK,,00.html), which utilizes a 6.5x25mm cartridge called the 6.5x25mm CBJ (http://www.military.com/soldiertech/0,14632,Soldiertech_HK,,00.html). It should be noted that the CBJ-MS PDW is more Uzi subgun-like (in appearance and ergonomics) and doesn't offer AR-15/M16 controls. It will be interesting to see how the CQB/6x35mm and CBJ-MS/6.5x25mm packages stack up against each other in terms of muzzle energy and terminal ballistics/lethality. Without testing them, the CQB would appear to have the edge, since it's first PDW we've seen that appears to be able to outperform 5.56x45mm short-barreled weapon with an equivalent-length (10") barrel (unconfirmed/unverified) with regard to muzzle energy. If this is the case, and the CQB PDW lives up to the hype, it may constitute revolutionary performance from a PDW weapon/ammo package. We'll see.

DefRev can't wait to get this one to the range. It's a very cool gun.

The purpose of this article is to give our readers a heads-up about the new weapon. As we receive additional information about it (like photos, video, etc.), we will publish it. So, stay tuned.

Knight's Armament Co. (KAC) (http://www.knightarmco.com/) can be contacted by phone at 321-607-9900, by fax at 321-268-1498, and by email at info@knightarmco.com (info@knightarmco.com).

http://www.defensereview.com/modules.php?name=News&file=article&sid=878

Michael RVR
05-26-2006, 01:45 AM
Just what we need, another PDW caliber. p-)

Silent_Hunter
05-26-2006, 02:40 AM
Thanks, please show pic of KAC 6mm PDW

Onkel
05-26-2006, 03:56 AM
It looks like a MP7 ripoff

TacoDelRio
05-26-2006, 04:15 AM
Onkel,

Defense review shows the same picture for all articles in a certain genre. For example, all PDW articles, regardless of which PDW is reviewed, have the HK MP7 shown in the header of the article.

Unless of course you mean something else.

maw
05-27-2006, 10:39 AM
i've seen it. kinda looks like an uzi.
edit - sorry i'm thinking of that cool bofors pdw...

vajt
05-27-2006, 02:14 PM
That picture is definitely the HK MP7, that website just uses that picture for all their PDW articles. It would be interesting to see the actual KAC PDW design.

In the article it mentions that the SAAB CBJ looks like a little like an Uzi. I've also seen some pictures of what I assume is the CBJ but with a more advanced design. Take a look below.

I wonder what would happen if they use these new 6mm or 6.5mm calibres but with a longer barrel (14", 16" or 18"). Maybe replace the 5.56mm?

-----JT-----

Meldon
11-02-2006, 03:19 PM
Looks like a nice weapon (http://www.defensereview.com/modules.php?name=News&file=article&sid=878).

Very difficult to find pictures of it. I've read that it is a mix of M16 and AK47 and that it is really an efficient gun.

http://img106.imageshack.us/img106/5381/armsatndiasmallarmssymppb9.jpg (http://imageshack.us)

SMGLee
11-02-2006, 08:16 PM
Looks like a nice weapon (http://www.defensereview.com/modules.php?name=News&file=article&sid=878).

Very difficult to find pictures of it. I've read that it is a mix of M16 and AK47 and that it is really an efficient gun.

http://img106.imageshack.us/img106/5381/armsatndiasmallarmssymppb9.jpg (http://imageshack.us)


The 6.5 is actually pretty impressive round, a lot better then the 5.7 or the 4.6.

KAC has a little gem in their hands, a better designed stock and I think we have a winner to replace the good ole MP5.

Tony Williams
11-03-2006, 07:37 PM
In the article it mentions that the SAAB CBJ looks like a little like an Uzi. I've also seen some pictures of what I assume is the CBJ but with a more advanced design. Take a look below.
That pic looks like an MP7 variant rather than the CBJ - you can see the latter illustrated here (http://www.personaldefenceweapons.com/SCHV_PDWs/schv_pdws.htm#PDW17Libra)


I wonder what would happen if they use these new 6mm or 6.5mm calibres but with a longer barrel (14", 16" or 18"). Maybe replace the 5.56mm?

The 6x35 could possibly replace the 5.56mm for rifle/carbine use out to 300m, but not for machine gun use out to 600-800m.

The 6.5mm CBJ could not - the ammo is the same size as the 9x19. While it can reach out to 400m thanks to the saboted tungsten bullet, that makes rather small holes in people...

Tony Williams: Military gun and ammunition website (http://www.quarry.nildram.co.uk) and discussion forum (http://forums.delphiforums.com/autogun/messages/)

Demigod-17
11-11-2006, 10:01 PM
More of an Assault carbine cartridge IMO

theres some pic of the bullets.

Tony Williams
11-11-2006, 10:38 PM
More of an Assault carbine cartridge IMO


Agreed.

Strictly speaking, the term "PDW" was invented by NATO to describe their requirement for a new armour-piercing round to replace the 9x19 in handguns and compact SMGs.

So the 6x35 doesn't really qualify as a PDW round, as it's too big to fit into a handgun.

Tony Williams: Military gun and ammunition website (http://www.quarry.nildram.co.uk) and discussion forum (http://forums.delphiforums.com/autogun/messages/)

DariusII
05-01-2007, 02:46 AM
I just came across an article in a Japanese gun magazine of mine that talked about the KAC PDW. I thought some of you might be interested in the images. My apologies for the poor quality of the images. I was having probs with my scanner..


http://www3.telus.net/public/a6a91102/pdw-4.jpg


http://www3.telus.net/public/a6a91102/pdw-2.jpg

http://www3.telus.net/public/a6a91102/pdw-3.jpg

http://www3.telus.net/public/a6a91102/pdw-1.jpg

JoaMei
05-01-2007, 07:35 AM
Thats simply not a PDW, just another short assault rifle.

To be a good PDW it should be not much larger than a Pistol and carried like one.

Herrmannek
05-01-2007, 07:49 AM
THey should start naming all those guns with
"Yet Another ..." convention :)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yet_Another

for example

YAPDW :)

Tony Williams
05-01-2007, 08:55 AM
Thats simply not a PDW, just another short assault rifle.

I think they should have named it "Carbine" as it is the spiritual successor to the .30 M2 Carbine, and would do the same job.

Tony Williams: Military gun and ammunition website (http://www.quarry.nildram.co.uk) and discussion forum (http://forums.delphiforums.com/autogun/messages/)

Straker
05-01-2007, 12:34 PM
Hate to sound silly here but with a barrel length that long how does it make that much difference from a short AR15 type carbine, especially if it has a piston type upper. Or for that matter a G36C or HK53 (admittably both with a little shorter barrel).

The M2 Carbine was developed in a time when rifles had small magazines or were clip loaded, were heavy and fired much more powerful rounds than modern assault rifles. Does having a slightly different caliber really make this weapon worth that much more than one of the plethora of short barreled rifles out their?

Hydro
05-01-2007, 12:38 PM
The 6mm KAC round is probably optimised for a shorter barrel length, unlike a 5.56 ultra carbine that uses a round that really wasn't thought to be used in a barrel that short therefore sorting any stability issues.



As an aside, I got to put some rounds down with an MP7 not too long ago, and despite being ultra controllable in burst fire, and unless it expands like Rosie O'Donnell at a buffet table, I find it hard to believe that round can put anything larger than Wee Man down. You honestly don't comprehend how small 4.6x30 really is until you've got them in your hand.

Suicaine
05-02-2007, 12:30 AM
As an aside, I got to put some rounds down with an MP7 not too long ago, and despite being ultra controllable in burst fire, and unless it expands like Rosie O'Donnell at a buffet table, I find it hard to believe that round can put anything larger than Wee Man down. You honestly don't comprehend how small 4.6x30 really is until you've got them in your hand.

like giving somebody a minimi after 20years with a gimpy? :)

- Alex.

Young-kiwi
05-02-2007, 06:47 PM
The 6mm KAC round is probably optimised for a shorter barrel length, unlike a 5.56 ultra carbine that uses a round that really wasn't thought to be used in a barrel that short therefore sorting any stability issues.



As an aside, I got to put some rounds down with an MP7 not too long ago, and despite being ultra controllable in burst fire, and unless it expands like Rosie O'Donnell at a buffet table, I find it hard to believe that round can put anything larger than Wee Man down. You honestly don't comprehend how small 4.6x30 really is until you've got them in your hand.
like giving somebody a minimi after 20years with a gimpy? :)

- Alex.


Much, much worse. as Hyrdo states, you really don't understand how small the cartridge is until you see it in your hand.
If I recall recorrectly, Sydney Airport customs have them.
Try to imagine how on earth they would expect to stop some one as big as an enraged Pacific Islander with one, before he/she took it off you and beat you with it.

Straker
05-02-2007, 06:50 PM
Simple, empty a full mag into him... oh wait MDP can't do that here... ut ohh...

Sparky2129
05-02-2007, 06:57 PM
What's with the dimpled barrel?

Nevins
05-03-2007, 12:42 AM
What's with the dimpled barrel?

possibly a form of fluting

Gene2
05-04-2007, 10:49 PM
http://www.marshalarmsinc.com/Products.html

Another PDW Design

vajt
05-05-2007, 01:34 AM
http://www.marshalarmsinc.com/Products.html

Another PDW Design

Actually this is their PDW: http://www.marshalarmsinc.com/Products_2.html

The link and picture provided is an assualt rifle design being proposed by Marshal Arms.

-----JT-----

Gene2
05-05-2007, 10:48 AM
Thanks for correcting me! The one I posted is actually an assault rifle version, like you said.......pretty sleek looking design!

vajt
05-05-2007, 09:10 PM
Thanks for correcting me! The one I posted is actually an assault rifle version, like you said.......pretty sleek looking design!

I agree, it does look interesting. Definitely different than all other assault rifle designs that are currently in production or prototype.

-----JT-----

PvtPyle
05-05-2007, 10:05 PM
Oh yeah! One more POS PDW that we don't need in inventory. I am sure that this will die a sad and quiet death like the rest of them.

Macs.
05-05-2007, 10:20 PM
Oh yeah! One more POS PDW that we don't need in inventory. I am sure that this will die a sad and quiet death like the rest of them.

Military and Law Enforcement Agencies already have picked up the MP7 for example.

There seems to be some need...

SMGLee
05-06-2007, 06:32 AM
Thanks for correcting me! The one I posted is actually an assault rifle version, like you said.......pretty sleek looking design!


OOOkay... what ever you say.




Military and Law Enforcement Agencies already have picked up the MP7 for example.

There seems to be some need...

There are tendency for LE dept to pick up useless items just to justify the budgets. point in case.. Jacksonville PD, bought a whole bunch P90s, because they were able to get a hold of the M4 commnados and if they don't buy something, they would lose the budget. so P90 is was and they became one of the first LE agency to be equipped with the P90.... until they had a shoot out using the P90... they decided that they should have bought the M4s.

This is not to bad moth the KAC PDW, the new 6mm round seem to have a lot of promise.. for those dept that don't like the 5.56 and the 9mm are fast becoming under powered because of the prolifearation of body armors, the 6mm PDW might not be a bad idea.

PvtPyle
05-06-2007, 10:08 AM
There seems to be some need...

What military unit is fielding the MP7 in any quantity?

As for the need, there has been a need for a short compact weapon for various reasons. And Crane gave us the MK-18. Same ammo, same parts, very small package. It is plenty small enough for CQB, vehicle and aircraft crews.

So where is the need for a new round and weapon system?