It's Done, we've been sold out . Senate Passes Amnesty Bill

[Jeremiah]

Legislation to secure U.S. borders and offer millions of illegal immigrants access to the American dream cleared the Senate on Thursday, a rare election-year reach across party lines and a triumph for President Bush.


The 62-36 vote cleared the way for arduous summertime compromise talks with the House on its version that focuses on border enforcement � with no guarantee of success.


"Why not say to those undocumented workers who are working the jobs that the rest of us refuse, come out from the shadows," said Arizona Republican John McCain, a key architect of the bill.


The legislation includes money to better secure the borders, provide a new guest worker program and give an eventual shot at citizenship to many of the estimated 11 million to 12 million immigrants in the country illegally.


The bill "strengthens our security and reflects our humanity," said Edward M. Kennedy, D-Mass., McCain's partner in Senate compromise. "It is intended to keep out those who would harm us and welcome those who contribute to our country."


Majority Leader Bill Frist, R-Tenn., and the Democratic leader, Harry Reid of Nevada, both sided with supporters, a reflection of the bipartisan backing for a bill that was months in the drafting and survived several near-death experiences.


Conservative critics attacked the legislation to the end after trying unsuccessfully to pull it apart with amendments.


"This bill will not secure our borders," said Sen. Jeff Sessions, R-Ala., one of the most persistent critics.


"This is amnesty," added David Vitter, R-La., who tried last week to strip out provisions relating to citizenship.


Not so, said Sen. Arlen Specter, R-Pa., chairman of the Judiciary Committee, in a rebuttal to weeks of debate. "They have to pay a fine. They have to undergo a criminal background check. They have to pay back taxes, they have to learn English and they have to go to the back of the line," he said, referring to illegal immigrants who would apply for citizenship.


Still, Sessions, Vitter, John Cornyn of Texas and others echoed a view widely held among House Republicans, many of whom have vigorously denounced the Senate bill as well as Bush's call for a "comprehensive approach" to the issue.


That portended difficult compromise talks in the shadow of midterm elections, at a time when Bush's poll ratings are low, congressional Republicans are concerned and Democrats are increasingly optimistic about their chances in November.


For now, supporters of the Senate bill said they intended to savor their victory. Peppered with questions about the compromise talks ahead, Sen. Mel Martinez, R-Fla., said, "I'm going to celebrate here."


The House bill, which passed on a largely party-line vote last year, is generally limited to border enforcement. It would make all illegal immigrants subject to felony charges and it contains no provision for either a new temporary worker program or citizenship for men, women and children in the country unlawfully.


In contrast, the Senate bill would mark the most far-reaching changes in immigration law in two decades. Built on compromise after painstaking compromise, it was designed to appeal to conservatives and others seeking tougher border enforcement; business interests eager for a steady supply of legal, low-wage labor; unions seeking enhanced protections for migrants who often toil in seasonal work the fields and Hispanics who are on the cusp of greater political power and determined to win a change in legal status for millions of illegal immigrants.


That last group � Hispanics � comprises the fastest growing segment of the electorate, and millions made their feelings clear in street demonstrations denouncing the House measure and calling for passage of a broader measure.


Bush played a prominent role in the run-up to passage. An Oval Office speech last week made explicit his support for the Senate's overall approach. A later trip to Arizona was designed to reassure conservatives about his commitment to stanching illegal immigration.


In more than a week of debate, the Senate made a series of changes in the legislation. Still, the key pillars were preserved when opponents failed to knock out the guest worker program or the citizenship provisions. A new program for 1.5 million temporary agricultural workers also survived.


To secure the borders, the measure calls for the hiring of an additional 1,000 new Border Patrol agents this year and 14,000 by 2011, and backs Bush's plan for a short-term deployment of National Guard troops to states along the Mexican Border. The bill calls for new surveillance equipment as well as the construction of 370 miles of triple-layered fencing and 500 miles of vehicle barriers.


The new guest worker program would admit 200,000 individuals a year. Once here, they would be permitted for the first time to petition on their own for a green card that confers legal permanent residency, a provision designed to reduce the potential for exploitation by employers.


A separate new program, a compromise between growers and unions, envisions admission of an estimated 1.5 million immigrant farm workers who may also apply for permanent residency


Even supporters of the bill conceded the three-tiered program related to illegal immigrants was complicated.


Those in the country unlawfully for five years or more would be permitted to remain, continue working and eventually apply for citizenship. They would be required to pay at least $3,250 in fines and fees, settle any back taxes and learn English.


Illegal immigrants in the country for more than two years but less than five would be required to travel to a point of entry before re-entering the United States legally and beginning a lengthy process of seeking citizenship. They would be subject to the same fines, fees and other requirements as the longer-term immigrants.


An immigrant in the country illegally for less than two years would be required to leave with no guarantee of return.


A new electronic system for employee verification is designed to hold employers accountable for hiring decisions. It provides for maximum fines of $20,000 for each worker and possible jail time for repeat offenders.


A separate controversy erupted over a call to make English the national language. Supporters said it would leave all current rights in place. Detractors argued it could undermine an executive order that mandates assistance to individuals who receive services such as health care yet lack proficiency in English.

www.sfgate.com . . .

[Yaberdaber]

Ugh, traitors!!!

We must support the House fight against this incriminating bill. Did anyone else see the House reaction tonight?

[Cambridge Rabbit]

No biggie. This country was done forty years ago. You can't blame for the maggots for wanting to nest in its fat, inviting corpse, can you? It's only natural, after all.

[WarriorMonk]

house isn't gonna budge on this one...

either that, or they add another amendment saying that the illegals live with their employers, and lose all of their money to the US government.

[Freibier]

Isn't this a smart move after all?
I mean the illegals are there and enjoy all the benefits anyway, now you can tax them and get something back?

[Durandal]

Ugh, traitors!!!

We must support the House fight against this incriminating bill. Did anyone else see the House reaction tonight?

No, they are busy trying to cover up how corrupt they are.

You guys worry about the least worrisome crap.

Oh no! A status quo bill has been passed and turned into a law. They cannot enforce existing laws what makes you think anything is going to change?

Meanwhile a majority of CONgress is probably on the take one way or another...

[annihilation]

Meanwhile a majority of CONgress is probably on the take one way or another...

Majority?? try all of them are on the take. Congress is more dangerous than the soviet union during the height of the cold war.


I heard that more Reublicans voted against it then for it. I hope this bill is shot down.

[Rictor]

It seems like a compromise to me. Let all the people who are here stay, but secure the borders to prevent the problem getting larger. If the border can be controlled, than 10 million illegal immigrants out of a population of 300 million isn't catastrophic. I guess the key thing is not how many people come in, but how quickly they can be assimilated.

[Yaberdaber]

It's less of a compromise than a hand out for a free pass. It's like saying, "thanks for breaking the law, now you can stay without getting punished."
Tell me, would Mexico have allowed this to happen? Would ANY country in the world allow this to happen?
Things would work BEST if we used attrition and actually enforce the laws. It just doesn't seem to get through the heads of the senators, that's all.

[vryhpyammoadded]

No, they are busy trying to cover up how corrupt they are.
You guys worry about the least worrisome crap.
Oh no! A status quo bill has been passed and turned into a law. They cannot enforce existing laws what makes you think anything is going to change?
Meanwhile a majority of CONgress is probably on the take one way or another...

Durandal has it right in my opinion. They don’t really enforce much now so why would this law change anything?
Yet again, just enough legislation to buy more time and dodge yet another hot topic till something else comes up. Now back to business, could you please pass me another 100k for a job well done Mr. Corporation…

[tuercas]

It's less of a compromise than a hand out for a free pass. It's like saying, "thanks for breaking the law, now you can stay without getting punished."
Tell me, would Mexico have allowed this to happen? Would ANY country in the world allow this to happen?
Things would work BEST if we used attrition and actually enforce the laws. It just doesn't seem to get through the heads of the senators, that's all.

i can tell you Mexico would not have allowed a similar law simply because our economy is not big enough to absorb a large influx of economic migrants. the compromise that was reached in the US however is based on the economic needs of powerful and influential industries, like agriculture and construction who need an influx of cheap labor.

[sp2c]

what influx?

they are allready there in the country, have been for years.
I say let those that have been productive members of society stay charge them for any taxes they avoided and after that call them Americans

our government is contemplating similar measures

[Bernardo]

Guys, quick question.... What does this bill mean to someone like me who's been studying in the US for 3 years on an F-1 Student Visa and who can't f*cking wait to get a Green Card / Citizenship to enlist in the US Army?

I would assume the amnesty is only for illegals, but if you are legally in the US on a student Visa, you are excluded and are worth less than those illegal scumbags ...

Help me clear this up please. Thanks guys.
Bernardo

[Para]

Looks like some one is after Mexican vote

[Miles.]

In the Senate bill, there is a provision from Sen. Dodd to have "consultations" with the Mexican government before we build a wall.

:fork:

[Mastermind]

1) How do you charge people for back taxes when everything they have been earning has been under the table, cash and carry earnings? The IRS is going to need an army of Hindu accountants and computer specialists to figure it out. I guess immigracion rules will be changed to allow them to enter the country to do the figuring....:roll:

2) How do you "prove" how long you have been in the country if you have been here in hiding all along..trying not to leave a trail...medical records from the local emerbgency rooms? And how can anyone remember more than fifty aliases (an estimate from my Nephew cop who tells me that's about how many aliases each illegal has when they run an ncic on them when they arrest them for crimes).

3) Why would any one here illegally suddenly shift to be here "legally" when the burden of taxes, green cards, registration lines, reporting in regularly, fines and all that crapola is put on you? Why not just retain your "illegal" status and thus preserve your immunity from all the above?

4) Why would any employer go through the extortion from the gvt over hiring "The Suddenly Legal" Mexican when they can just keep right on going as they have been...

"Hey, Jose...want to dig me some flower beds? Six dollars an hour...and luche' at Taco Bell...." No taxes, no reporting forms, no workmen's comp, no crap....and the job gets done.

5) What happens to all those folks who now have "essential legal status" via their illegally obtained SS cards, driver licenses, and work permits? To suddenly turn your self in on illegally obtaining those things can get you sent up the river for many years and hundreds of thousands of bucks in fines...

"Whadday say Jose? Turn yourself in...beg the mercy of the Americano justice system...get yer self a lawyer at $600.00 an hour?" ....
"No Gracias, Amigo...I'll just tay like I am...if they catch me..they just send me back south...I'll get my social Security anyway...the US Senate says so..."

Here it is, folks...the crap the illustrious know-it-alls in the Congress are cramming through as an "Immigracion Bill" is just that...CRAP! It is a smoke screen to put sweet chocolate icing on the rotton-pig-meat cake they are trying to shove down yer throats as an Immigration Bill so you might think they actually deserve to be re-elected this fall...and to show the Mexican citizens who are sucking off the American teats (oh..yeah...and illegally voting for Democrats, too) that they are truly loved and wanted...and to tell them...

"Would you guys please just keep doing what you are doiing? Your slavery status is really good for the booming American economy."

MM!

[Laworkerbee]

The border needs to be locked down so when Mexico implodes we wont have to deal with a flood of ecomonic refugees

[remo williams]

MM that's very true. I also have to agree w/Durandal on this. What's so different? And where's the incentive/deterrent for business which is hell bent on creating a new exploitable underclass? This is all some half assed attempt to "look" like they are doing sometihng useful with their terms.

[mattnwnc03]

what influx?

they are allready there in the country, have been for years.
I say let those that have been productive members of society stay charge them for any taxes they avoided and after that call them Americans

our government is contemplating similar measures
i dont think the ones i see around my town have been here for years, alot of them are fresh off the cabbage truck

[vryhpyammoadded]

MM that's very true. I also have to agree w/Durandal on this. What's so different? And where's the incentive/deterrent for business which is hell bent on creating a new exploitable underclass? This is all some half assed attempt to "look" like they are doing sometihng useful with their terms.

Exactly, lord forbid a politician make real legislation that might hurt the powers that delivered him into office.

I once worked for a man who was quoted many times as saying he wanted more illegal immigrants simply because they jumped higher and longer for smaller carrots than anyone else.
Note: They typically came to the company legal but he often managed to make them become illegal in a very short time. The immigration lawyer that was in cahoots with him and many other businesses eventually got caught red handed yet escaped prosecution coping an insanity plea from her vacation home in Brazil. She’s still a multi millionaire, most money ill-gotten from promises never to be fulfilled made to hundreds if not thousands of good people.
Not so surprisingly, his bait and switch eventually went too far. A few of the slaves got angry and bravely exposed him. Nothing happened accept a slap on his wrist as he franticly called in favors from his government buddies. The whistle blowers shipped out back home with some very bad opinions of America/ns.
A few of us local employees suggested he ease up. He refused and threatened, we demanded, were refused and punished again, then rebelled, put the strangle hold on him while hunting for new employment, the economy dipped, he was overextended and now the company is no more with he and the other partners pissing away there ill gotten cash to a swarm of lawyers.
I hear he’s now up to five lawsuits. I hope he dies, horribly, painfully, impoverished over many years :)

By the way, the business was an analyst/lobbying firm.

[annihilation]

i can tell you Mexico would not have allowed a similar law simply because our economy is not big enough to absorb a large influx of economic migrants. the compromise that was reached in the US however is based on the economic needs of powerful and influential industries, like agriculture and construction who need an influx of cheap labor.

Once they become legal will they still be cheap labor?

[Atlantic Friend]

1) How do you charge people for back taxes when everything they have been earning has been under the table, cash and carry earnings? The IRS is going to need an army of Hindu accountants and computer specialists to figure it out. I guess immigracion rules will be changed to allow them to enter the country to do the figuring....:roll:

2) How do you "prove" how long you have been in the country if you have been here in hiding all along..trying not to leave a trail...medical records from the local emerbgency rooms? And how can anyone remember more than fifty aliases (an estimate from my Nephew cop who tells me that's about how many aliases each illegal has when they run an ncic on them when they arrest them for crimes).

3) Why would any one here illegally suddenly shift to be here "legally" when the burden of taxes, green cards, registration lines, reporting in regularly, fines and all that crapola is put on you? Why not just retain your "illegal" status and thus preserve your immunity from all the above?

4) Why would any employer go through the extortion from the gvt over hiring "The Suddenly Legal" Mexican when they can just keep right on going as they have been...

"Hey, Jose...want to dig me some flower beds? Six dollars an hour...and luche' at Taco Bell...." No taxes, no reporting forms, no workmen's comp, no crap....and the job gets done.

5) What happens to all those folks who now have "essential legal status" via their illegally obtained SS cards, driver licenses, and work permits? To suddenly turn your self in on illegally obtaining those things can get you sent up the river for many years and hundreds of thousands of bucks in fines...

"Whadday say Jose? Turn yourself in...beg the mercy of the Americano justice system...get yer self a lawyer at $600.00 an hour?" ....
"No Gracias, Amigo...I'll just tay like I am...if they catch me..they just send me back south...I'll get my social Security anyway...the US Senate says so..."

Here it is, folks...the crap the illustrious know-it-alls in the Congress are cramming through as an "Immigracion Bill" is just that...CRAP! It is a smoke screen to put sweet chocolate icing on the rotton-pig-meat cake they are trying to shove down yer throats as an Immigration Bill so you might think they actually deserve to be re-elected this fall...and to show the Mexican citizens who are sucking off the American teats (oh..yeah...and illegally voting for Democrats, too) that they are truly loved and wanted...and to tell them...

"Would you guys please just keep doing what you are doiing? Your slavery status is really good for the booming American economy."

MM!


All very valid points, MM !

[joedirt]

haha I love it when the republicans sell you out cant blame this one on us democrats : )

[tuercas]

Once they become legal will they still be cheap labor?
these people are not going to get degrees overnite as soon as they become legal residents .

[vryhpyammoadded]

haha I love it when the republicans sell you out cant blame this one on us democrats : )

It was festering on there watch too. Same coin, different sides ;)

[StukaJr]

Good post MM! - a good summary of shortcomings and outright absurdity of the "Amnesty Bill".

these people are not going to get degrees overnite as soon as they become legal residents .

But they will be expected to pay a good third of their earnings to the US Government and face equal scrutiny from IRS for failing to report earnings as Legal Aliens - costs usually made up by asking for higher fee for the same work produced. Considering their legalization will also cost considerable funds - these newly legalized immigrants are less likely to accept work for the same wages.

Working for cash earnings and not reporting one's gains is not something exclusive to the illegal immigrants.

[joedirt]

yeah but republicans pretend to care more about it then democrats. whats funny about this administration is they know our economy and workforce now depends on low wage undocumented workers. thats why there wont be a wall cause they still want them to be able to get into america all that bush has done is get the anti-illegal people off his back by giving some BS plan to put national guard on the border.

[pathfinder82]

Majority?? try all of them are on the take. Congress is more dangerous than the soviet union during the height of the cold war.


I heard that more Reublicans voted against it then for it. I hope this bill is shot down.


yeah, who needs enemies..

[LazyLob]

So this is a reward for breaking the law? Who will they pardon next?

[remo williams]

Once they become legal will they still be cheap labor?
In support of tucares comment,yes. Especially because they would not have degrees/education needed. Those seeking "cheaper" labor bank on the fact that these immigrants won't ask for or don't know that they could/be making more for the same labor. And that their former American counterparts made more before they were let go. In addition like durandal and MM have pointed out. Labor/immigration laws aren't enforced as is, so a change in their status is unlikely to make a difference.

[CPLHUNTER]

Well this isn't the end...I hope

[annihilation]

In support of tucares comment,yes. Especially because they would not have degrees/education needed. Those seeking "cheaper" labor bank on the fact that these immigrants won't ask for or don't know that they could/be making more for the same labor. And that their former American counterparts made more before they were let go. In addition like durandal and MM have pointed out. Labor/immigration laws aren't enforced as is, so a change in their status is unlikely to make a difference.

Sure they wont get an education over night. BUT they can then get minimum wage.
I just heard that congress wants to put a clause in the bill where we have to consult mexico when and if we build the wall. WTF?

[Durandal]

I am assuming that everyone opposed to this bill is going to take over the jobs the illegals are forced out of. p-)

[remo williams]

Sure they wont get an education over night. BUT they can then get minimum wage.
I just heard that congress wants to put a clause in the bill where we have to consult mexico when and if we build the wall. WTF?

True,but there will be no incentive for congress or employers to pay more or for that matter increse minimum wage above what it currently is. As fas as all this consultation w/mexico on how (or for that matter if) enforcemet of of "our" immigration policy should be carried out. I wonder how the mexican govt' would react to islamic fundamentalism taking root in their country. I wonder how much fuss they would raise since more or less it'd be another cuban missle crisis all over again.

[TheStorm]

I just hope the House stands up to this B.S. The Senate has lost a lot of my respect.

[alex423]

haha I love it when the republicans sell you out cant blame this one on us democrats : )

you love being sold out?:|

[Lt. James Anderson]

No biggie. This country was done forty years ago. You can't blame for the maggots for wanting to nest in its fat, inviting corpse, can you? It's only natural, after all.

Well said.

[Mastermind]

If you think this problem is a Republican or a Democrat problem...you are totally wrong and a political neophyte. This thing is a congress (as in ALL THE CONGRESS) problem. Neither party is now capable of doing a thing about this mess. The voting block of likely constituents from Mexico is way over the point of no return. The interests of the American people are being ignored because in Congress the only thing that matters (again regardless of party affiliation) is "What is good for Mr. Congress man or woman.".

That's the hard cold fact of it, folks...and there is not one G0d Dam*ed thing anyone is going to do about it or can do about it.

[Will938]

That's the hard cold fact of it, folks...and there is not one G0d Dam*ed thing anyone is going to do about it or can do about it.

What we need to do is limit the number of terms they can serve to 1 or 2. These mother ****ers have no appriciation for the constitution and to them the American people come second. This is absolutely rediculous, we need change, a big one.

[Durandal]

What we need to do is limit the number of terms they can serve to 1 or 2. These mother ****ers have no appriciation for the constitution and to them the American people come second. This is absolutely rediculous, we need change, a big one.


Two things...

A) Congressional Redistricting is the cause of our woes. They sit in their seat happy in the knowledge that their base IS their area, deliberately redrawn to incorporate their base. Be they Democrat or Republican.

Ohio's is a perfect example.

http://images.google.com/imgres?imgurl=http://www.ocsea.org/myocsea/ron/RON_gerrymander_lg.jpg&imgrefurl=http://www.ocsea.org/myocsea/ron/gerrymandering.asp&h=650&w=654&sz=132&hl=en&start=4&tbnid=8LCcPzhfxNGTAM:&tbnh=135&tbnw=136&prev=/images%3Fq%3DOhio%2BCongressional%2BDistricts%26svnum%3D10%26hl%3Den%26lr%3D%26client%3Dsafari%26rls%3Den%26sa%3DN

Example: You have a large Black population that votes Democrat, split it up and combine it with larger Republican districts. You, literally, silence the vote. Once you get a candidate in the seat he stays there because of special interest. A Democrat or other 3rd Party (for this example) is not going to get it and a new Republican certainly is not unless the House Rep leaves, retires, is arrested, or dies.

The solution to the immigration problem is not going to come out of either half of Congress, not the House and not the Senate.

Why? Because none of them actually deal with the REAL issue at hand: integrating the current, newer immigrants into our society and setting up a solid, enforceable plan, for future ones that makes sense and reflects what America is.

First, why not simple say English IS our national language and make if goddamn official? That's not to say that private companies cannot offer multi-lingual options on teller machines or gas pumps, or airports have directs in multiple languages. What it means, is that in order to become a citizen, you have to speak the language. I am not expecting advance literary techniques. Just a nudge in the right direction. It better arms them with a skill necessary both in this country and the world if you want to succeed.

That is a simple thing to do. No driver's license tests in Spanish. No citizenship exams in German. All government printed documents would be in English.

Actually patrol the border. No WALL in human history has kept migrating or fleeing people out or in without a massive cost in defending that same wall. The costs associated with this are ENORMOUS.

Now, is one of you can come up with a place where we can squeeze the money from, let me know.

Unemployment is down to 4.7 or some ridiculously low number. That's less than 12 million people. Right around 10 mill me thinks. A good chunk of those are people that will ALWAYS be unemployed or people that are looking for skilled jobs that have benefits.

Who is going to work all the jobs those illegals have left because they have been imprisoned. I mean, most of you are suggesting we make illegal immigration a felony. How does that work? We haul 'em out of work, arrest them, imprison them along with the other 2.6% of our imprisoned population? Deport them at anywhere between 5K to 100K apiece?

Then, who is going to replace those jobs? Not Americans. That is for certain. Cut the crap about competitive wages. One of the inflationary problems with America right now is that we are getting paid too much. THey work, for the most part, the crap jobs, jobs that Americans do not want to work because they pay crap wages because American consumers do not want to pay 10.00 a pound for strawberries. We do not want to pay someone 100.00/hour to mow our lawn.

You all make it sound like, Congress passing a law is going to make it all better. Not even close. You do not the Senate's bill? Fine. The House's is no better. But no, lets o all this stuff. Let's build a wall stretching from the Gulf to the Pacific. Lets station troops to guard that wall. Lets throw out all the illegals and screw the consequences...

[annihilation]

Two things...

A) Congressional Redistricting is the cause of our woes. They sit in their seat happy in the knowledge that their base IS their area, deliberately redrawn to incorporate their base. Be they Democrat or Republican.



Soooo true. Arnold tried to pass a law to have the redistricting changed and taken away from the hands of the democrats and republicans but failed. I don't understand how the public is not more upset by this issue. Oh thats right why would they be upset, those who would care vote and they are already on the winning side in the district they live in.

[camerashy]

I blame Bush. When he was gov. of Texas he couldn't wait to speak spanish when he gave his speeches. Say "I'm bilingual" with a drawl. He encouraged illegal immigration and knew how this influx of cheap labor would benefit his business buds and campaign donors. He did nothing as president until the problem was dropped in his lap. This is what we get for electing someone with a 79 IQ.

[Mastermind]

I do know congress is scared...the immigracion issue surprised them. The Minutemen surprised them with the sudden popularity of the folks on the street level. The new make-believe legislation is to appease and defuse the ground swell into thinking congress is really paying attention. Write letters to them and encourage everyone you know to write letters to explain to these dummies that we are onto their little scheme...put in your letter that you NOW support term limits and urge them (in the stongest language permissible) to vote in support of term limits...that scares the bejesus out of them.

Oh..excellent post there Durandal...Two thumbs up...and also to Will938...:)

[Daniel1115]

They are extremely naive to believe:

1. that they will be able to collect $3k from each illegal out there.

2. these immigrants will return to their country of origin once their "guest worker" time has elapsed.

Back in the 90s, I knew dozens of illegals who stayed employed here working for shrimp companies and nurseries even after their work visas expired. The same thing will occur with this program.

[Durandal]

Oh..excellent post there Durandal...Two thumbs up...and also to Will938...:)

Thanks man.

Yeah, I just moved back to Ohio and while I kept in the loop politically after I left, I am doing more research now.

I think Ohio's 1st and and 2nd Congressional Districts are the most obvious. There is no sense to the division of an entire county into 2 regions.

The only reason that DOES make sense is to DELIBERATELY stack votes.

The West Side of Cincinnati (and Hamilton County) is traditionally conservative and Republican. The East side is more liberal and usually Democrat (and up till recently contained a majority of Cincinnati's black population).

So, what they did was divide Cincinnati's population by political voting record. That, in itself wouldn't be the worst thing to have happened, but then, that liberal East side was lumped with the next 3 or 4 counties further East, who were, guess what...REALLY conservative and with a larger overall population (though not the same density), essentially, guaranteeing the District 1 always goes to a Republican and rarely District 2 to anything BUT a Republican (the last race was sort of close, but still not completely).

See Map:
http://www.house.gov/chabot/images/NewCongDistrictMapLarge2.jpg

Now, I am not a Democrat by ANY stretch. I am not, however, a Republican either. This whole gerrymandering process REALLY stinks. Ultimately, this is SO un-American that it disgusts me and with a a bit of stretch is about as corrupt as the 3/5ths vote we had a Civil War over...

It happens too on the Democratic side of the fence, especially ini California and the Northern half of the East Coast. My example just happens to benefit the Republicans. Regardless, it blows and IS one of the core reasons (along with Federal Income Tax, lack of Term Limits, and no Control on National Debt) that we have the problems we do.

[ttunavy]

I blame Bush. When he was gov. of Texas he couldn't wait to speak spanish when he gave his speeches. Say "I'm bilingual" with a drawl. He encouraged illegal immigration and knew how this influx of cheap labor would benefit his business buds and campaign donors. He did nothing as president until the problem was dropped in his lap. This is what we get for electing someone with a 79 IQ.

this problem was around way before gwb and it will still be around long after him.

[Borisimmo]

whatever i say let america be the country with it's arms open to the hungry and abused just as long as it doesnt turn into a European welfare state. If you come to america, we'll pay you enough for you to survive on. In addition, there are countless religious organizations and NPOs that help immigrants economically, emotionally, and educationally. As my Father says, "you cant starve in America". I just think the government should implement a no-toleration policy for immigrants who've been incarcerated for a felony. They should not be kept in US jails. They should be deport ASAP. I say that because humans have insatiable desires. If you come to america and the government gives you enough to live on, you'll want more. Lazy and dumb people will go to illegal measures to attain what they want. Laziness and stupidity are not american values. We are a hard-working nation. If you plan to join us, you better work hard too.
In the russian community where I live, countless of russian immigrants have come here and within 10 years created prestigeous careers, have 2-3 cars in their own driveways, and support their children's educations. How? Through hard work, education, and wit.

[XShipRider]

Then they sat around drinking cognac, smoking cigars and congratulated
each other on what fine job they did.

:-( Another sad day for Amerixico.