Designated Marksman Instructor Course

[AlexNenadic]

I was sure I had already posted these, but cannot find them. Must have been on another forum.

http://www.odcmp.org/1205/images/SDMImg/1.jpg

http://www.odcmp.org/1205/images/SDMImg/2.jpg

http://www.odcmp.org/1205/images/SDMImg/3.jpg

http://www.odcmp.org/1205/images/SDMImg/5.jpg

http://www.odcmp.org/1205/images/SDMImg/6.jpg

http://www.odcmp.org/1205/images/SDMImg/7.jpg

CMP civilian instructors who helped teach the class:

http://www.odcmp.org/1205/images/SDMImg/4.jpg

And with that I depart, taking my DM Rifle clone (complete with a TA31F ACOG) to my club's 600yd hipower range. Should be fun, I've got a ton of match ammo and the whole day to shoot.

[Jurpula]

What's with the orange magazine?

[Far]

Are these guys just good shots but don't want to be snipers? Or is it a qualifying issue?

[Pai Mei]

What's with the orange magazine?

It's a chamber flag to show that the rifle is unloaded, chamber clear. Many ranges require these items.

[Jurpula]

Thanks for the info, i don't think we use those in finland...could be wise though...

[GLax]

Are these guys just good shots but don't want to be snipers? Or is it a qualifying issue?

nah, its just a course they give to guys who are going to be the Marksman for their squad. no big deal really, i was my squad marksman for 6 months in Iraq last year, but it was really easy to use so everyone used it. never even shot that weapon, pretty much stayed on our roof for guard duty. my buddy shot a bad guy with it once though. it would be an allrite weapon if it were built better. we had to take a buffer spring out of one of our extra m16a4s to get the damn thing to chamber a round. handguards fall off to easy, so putting a peq2a is a nogo, the bipod legs that came with it are crap, ours were held together with 550 chord, the matchgrade ammo for it was really hard to come by, but luckily our SF guys hooked us up with a big can of it. overall, good idea, bad execution.

[TacoDelRio]

nah, its just a course they give to guys who are going to be the Marksman for their squad. no big deal really, i was my squad marksman for 6 months in Iraq last year, but it was really easy to use so everyone used it. never even shot that weapon, pretty much stayed on our roof for guard duty. my buddy shot a bad guy with it once though. it would be an allrite weapon if it were built better. we had to take a buffer spring out of one of our extra m16a4s to get the damn thing to chamber a round. handguards fall off to easy, so putting a peq2a is a nogo, the bipod legs that came with it are crap, ours were held together with 550 chord, the matchgrade ammo for it was really hard to come by, but luckily our SF guys hooked us up with a big can of it. overall, good idea, bad execution.

Sorry to hear that. Hopefully you guys get better rifles on the next run.

Interesting post, Alex. Good to see CMP guys helping out soldiers, and vice versa.

[joedirt]

is that a gas station i see in the background?

[em_twofourzero]

It really is a fantastic course, taught by the "President's 100", both civilians and military.

I would not consider myself a naturally proficient marksman, above average in the Army, maybe. By the end of the course I was hitting 6-inch groups on paper targets at 500 yards, with IRON SIGHTS. You learn alot about the capabilities of the M-16/M4 and the ACOG as well.

[em_twofourzero]

Here's some pics:

Here's the view through an ACOG (TA01NSN model) from the 500 yard line, targets presented.
http://i24.photobucket.com/albums/c1/cjs_19kilo/acogview.jpg

One of our civilian instructors giving it a go from 500 yards, as a trainee spots for him.




http://i24.photobucket.com/albums/c1/cjs_19kilo/civshoots500yds.jpg

Aside from the ACOG, we also trained with Leopold Mk4 1-3x variable scopes, like the one mounted on this M16A4. These were good for medium range shooting; 0-400 yards, but not for long range stuff. The Harris bipod is my personal.
http://i24.photobucket.com/albums/c1/cjs_19kilo/m16a4400yds.jpg

Me during a change out between the firing and the pit. Full gear while shooting was only worn during the last day of the course, and only for familiarzation. This amazed us, that the Army was letting us shoot in just our duty uniforms and patrol caps. While in the pit, however full gear was always required.
http://i24.photobucket.com/albums/c1/cjs_19kilo/Copyofmem16a4wacog.jpg

The pit.
http://i24.photobucket.com/albums/c1/cjs_19kilo/Copyofpit.jpg

[MEGR]

Excellent pics! I'm yearning to a marksman rifle like the ones used above.

[RGRBOX]

Boy Bliss hasn't changed much.. still a sh it hole... No trees, too many snakes... and ... and.. well that's bad enough isn't it... I spent 2 very long tiring weeks just near Bliss back in the 80's... and was back again before Somolia...

Am surprized to see guys on a range without all of their kit on.. boy the Army is changing..

[Flagg]

It really is a fantastic course, taught by the "President's 100", both civilians and military.

I would not consider myself a naturally proficient marksman, above average in the Army, maybe. By the end of the course I was hitting 6-inch groups on paper targets at 500 yards, with IRON SIGHTS. You learn alot about the capabilities of the M-16/M4 and the ACOG as well.

Thanks for sharing em_twofourzero.

Do you know if an open source syllabus is available on the net for the DM training program?



What a great way to pass down knowledge using those CMP fellas.

[TacoDelRio]

Great post, M240. Looks good! Looks like a sh*tload of fun!
Glad you seemed to have enjoyed it!

[AlexNenadic]

Excellent pics! I'm yearning to a marksman rifle like the ones used above.

In the process of building mine I did a lot of research. If you're serious about getting one let me know, will save you a crapload of time and money.

Today I was able to keep all rounds in the 10 ring at 600yds with a bipod and 9 with my sling, this target type:
http://www.capitanhipower.com/Photos/600ydTrgt.jpg

[TacoDelRio]

Looks like you can hit a person then. Good sh*t, good shooting.

I imagine there isn't much recoil off your bipod? My .308 jumps off the friggin' ground when I shoot from my bipod.

[AlexNenadic]

Looks like you can hit a person then. Good sh*t, good shooting.

I imagine there isn't much recoil off your bipod? My .308 jumps off the friggin' ground when I shoot from my bipod.

Thanks, although this is crappy shooting really. The Rifle Director who runs this range gets pissed off when he gets a couple of 10s in a row. With ironsights and a sling.

My rifle is rather light since it is a 16" carbine type rather than a 20" full size AR15 like the Army's DM rifle, but you are right, there is almost no bipod hop. There is however a lot of nose-biting due to the very short eye relief on that ACOG, agrrrrr.

What kind of 308 are you shooting?

About my rifle, I basically looked at the Army's concept and scaled it down to carbine size. Its much more managable.

[em_twofourzero]

Our known distance range at the training area only allows up to 500 yards, which is unfortunate. Although anything past that and you're reaching the limits of the off-the-arms-room-shelf rifles we're using, even with a 4x ACOG (reticle only goes to 600m, anyways). It doesn't help that this is the windiest place I've ever lived, either. Anyone stationed at Bliss or who has visited El Paso can attest to this.

Our company is to get an unknown number (probably 2) of 7.62mm M-14s or M-21s (accurized M-14s). My CO has promised me "dibs" since I took the course and also have a civilian M-14 of my own. I'd really like to see how far out I can hit with one, but unfortunately, as I mentioned our KD range only supports up to 500 yard fires.

Even with a SDM Certificate of Training and an scoped M-14, I still cannot be considered a sniper, nor would I want to be considered one. Only folks that graduate sniper school should be allowed that honor. However, I will be grateful for the upgrade in firepower from my M16A4 and improved range.

The most challenging part of the SDM course was the final test shoot. We started at the furthest firing line, fired 10 rounds, then advanced 100 yards at a time, changing our stance. The goal was to keep all rounds in the center mass rings of our silhouette targets (about a 16" diameter circle) and to maintain as tight a group as possible. ACOGs and Leopolds were allowed, but I used my irons, just to prove something to myself, I guess. It went like this:

500 yards: ****e supported
400 yards: ****e unsupported
300 yards: ****e unsupported
200 yards: Kneeling
100 yards: Standing
30 yards: Pistol (just kidding, but it would have been cool)

It was challenging also because I had to remember to adjust the BDC on my irons as I advanced. We don't train with it as much as we should in normal rifle training. Luckily I got my head out of my arse just before I started firing from 400 yards. After 50 rounds, we checked targets and I was pleased. Not the 6 inch group I was hoping for, but better than most others in the course. My buddy next to me with an ACOG humbled me though, but he's a better shot all around anyway.

[AlexNenadic]

even with a 4x ACOG (reticle only goes to 600m, anyways).

I've got a 4x TA31F ACOG mounted at the moment, reticle looks like this:

http://www.eaglefirearms.net/images/Web%20TA31F%20reticle.jpg

I'll be switching it for a 3-9x36mm M3 Leupold though, with their new TMR reticle:

http://photos.imageevent.com/smglee/mstn/large/TS30a2-2.jpg

http://www.leupold.com/products/images/Reticles/TMR_subtensions.gif

The ACOG is a perfect match for an off the shelf M16/M4 in my opinion, but leaves something to be desired on a precision rifle (especially past 600m).

[em_twofourzero]

The ACOG is a perfect match for an off the shelf M16/M4 in my opinion, but leaves something to be desired on a precision rifle (especially past 600m).

Totally agree with that. They're excellent medium range optics for the modern battlefield, don't get me wrong. The reticle for that Leopold looks tight. That's just too much scope for my M16A4, though. I'll have to wait and see what the Army is giving me (if anything) for the M-14.

[AlexNenadic]

Totally agree with that. They're excellent medium range optics for the modern battlefield, don't get me wrong. The reticle for that Leopold looks tight. That's just too much scope for my M16A4, though. I'll have to wait and see what the Army is giving me (if anything) for the M-14.

You are right, anything more than an ACOG is a waste on a standard M16A4 firing M855 ammunition.

If you ever decide to mount a personal optic on your M14, I'd recommend the 3.5-10x40mm M3 Leupold LR/T and TMR reticle. Their MR/T 3-9x36 optic was designed from the ground up for the Army's SPR, and as a result it doesn't have nearly enough eye relief for a 308.

A couple more shots showing the TMR reticle, courtesy of ar15.com:

http://www.hunt101.com/img/398392-big.jpg
http://www.hunt101.com/img/398394.jpg

[Flagg]

I just bought that Leo M3....good scope

[TacoDelRio]

Thanks, although this is crappy shooting really. The Rifle Director who runs this range gets pissed off when he gets a couple of 10s in a row. With ironsights and a sling.

My rifle is rather light since it is a 16" carbine type rather than a 20" full size AR15 like the Army's DM rifle, but you are right, there is almost no bipod hop. There is however a lot of nose-biting due to the very short eye relief on that ACOG, agrrrrr.

What kind of 308 are you shooting?

About my rifle, I basically looked at the Army's concept and scaled it down to carbine size. Its much more managable.

I've got an LOS-7-1 form Izhevsk in Russia. It's pretty light, so there ain't alotta meat to absorb the recoil of a .308 in the ****e, unless you've got it slinged, no bipod. Otherwise it likes to jump up and run away off a bipod.
http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y222/TacoDelRio/DSC02187.jpg

Now that I have a surplus of ammunition, I may set up a sort of 3-600 meter range for training. The scope is a 4x Dragunov-type, so things get tiny that far away!


Hey good luck and enjoy your shooting. I wish I could set up a nice DMR sort of rifle off an AR reciever, probably 20in or 16 as you have.

Out

[AlexNenadic]

Hey good luck and enjoy your shooting. I wish I could set up a nice DMR sort of rifle off an AR reciever, probably 20in or 16 as you have.

Out

Thanks, I hope you do get one as they are a ton of fun and extremely accurate.