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Seraphim
03-19-2004, 02:39 AM
I think its a huge mistake that they arent going to service the Hubble.
The James Webb Space Telescope, that is meant to "replace" it is not. It cannot replace what it cannot do. Also its more dangerous to fly to the ISS than to the Hubble. :roll:


By MARCIA DUNN, AP Aerospace Writer

CAPE CANAVERAL, Fla. - They risked their lives for the Hubble Space Telescope (news - web sites) and did so gladly. Now, many of the astronauts who worked on Hubble hundreds of miles above Earth are dismayed, bewildered or both by NASA (news - web sites)'s decision to pull the plug on the mighty observatory.



"I just think it's a huge, huge mistake," says Greg Harbaugh, who performed Hubble repairs during a pair of spacewalks in 1997. "It is probably the greatest instrument or tool for astronomical and astrophysical research since Galileo invented the telescope, and I think it is a tragedy that we would consider not keeping the Hubble alive and operational as long as possible."


Though the decision is not absolute, there appears to be little chance NASA administrator Sean O'Keefe will change his mind about a Hubble servicing mission, deeming it too risky to astronauts in the wake of Columbia.


That would mean a premature death for the 14-year-old observatory whose latest snapshot — revealed last week — showed the deepest-ever view of the universe, a mishmash of galaxies dating almost all the way back to creation.


Tom Akers, part of the spacewalking team that restored Hubble's eyesight in 1993, also favors another mission.


"I definitely think that's an asset that we shouldn't throw away," says Akers, who teaches college math in Missouri. "That's my position and they know it."


NASA has been fending off heavy criticism ever since O'Keefe decided in January to cancel the last servicing, set for 2006.


Last week, at congressional urging, O'Keefe agreed to ask the National Academy of Sciences (news - web sites) to study the issue from all perspectives, including using robots to install new cameras or augment battery power.


But he does not expect to reconsider sending up astronauts despite the outcry.


An Internet petition has collected thousands of names, O'Keefe's e-mail system is clogged with complaints, members of Congress are demanding reviews by independent groups, and the chief Columbia accident investigator is urging a public policy debate on the Hubble gains versus shuttle risks.


Even John Glenn has weighed in, telling President Bush (news - web sites)'s commission on moon and Mars travel that another servicing mission is necessary "to get every year's value out of that thing."


The canceled servicing mission would have been the Hubble's fifth and would have equipped it with two state-of-the-art science instruments already built and worth a combined $176 million, as well as fresh batteries and gyroscopes. The work by spacewalkers would have kept Hubble humming until 2011 or 2012.


Without intervention, Hubble will probably take its last picture in 2007 or 2008. O'Keefe says he does not see how NASA could launch a servicing mission before then without shirking the recommendations of the Columbia Accident Investigation Board.


As an alternative, engineers are trying to figure out how to prolong the telescope's life with robotic help.


NASA is quick to point out that when Hubble was launched, 15 years of service were promised, a goal that will be met next spring. The space telescope has helped scientists gauge the age and size of the universe and confirmed the existence of black holes.


Regardless of Hubble's merit, O'Keefe says he cannot let astronauts fly to the telescope and risk being stuck there if their shuttle is damaged by foam or other launch debris.


There's no way a stranded shuttle crew could get from Hubble to the international space station in an entirely different orbit.





The NASA chief insists his decision is rooted in safety, and he's recruited the agency's chief scientist, John Grunsfeld, a two-time Hubble space repairman, to help defend his decision.

Yet eyebrows were raised given the timing of the announcement: It came two days after President Bush unveiled a plan to complete the space station and retire the shuttle by 2010, and to send astronauts back to the moon by 2020.

Glenn worries the Columbia accident may be making NASA gun-shy.

Harbaugh, now director of the Florida Air Museum, says he felt no more danger flying to Hubble than anywhere else in space. There is little difference, he says, "in risk between launching to Hubble and launching to station and just launching period."

Astronomers would be at a loss if Hubble is abandoned and its powerful replacement, the James Webb Space Telescope, is lost in a rocket explosion or has crippling design flaws. That's why so many would rather wait to decommission Hubble until Webb is launched, now set for 2011.

While NASA's Chandra X-ray Observatory and Spitzer Space Telescope see the universe in X-ray and infrared, respectively, Hubble observes visible light and peeks into the ultraviolet and near-infrared. Webb will focus on the infrared and outdo Hubble with a mirror more than double its size.

Astronauts — Hubble repairmen included, who say they would do it again — like to point out that a ship is safe in the harbor, but that's not what ships are built for.

Says Bruce McCandless, who helped deliver Hubble to orbit and now works in industry: "John Paul Jones is also reported to have said, 'Give me a fast ship for I intend to sail in harm's way.' He wasn't going to sit in the harbor, either."

Seraphim
03-19-2004, 12:41 PM
Tane...any thoughts about this?

Tane Angle
03-19-2004, 07:11 PM
Well, I am an opinionated old fogey. :D Thanks for asking.

I think we should keep Hubble in place, to supplement Webb. Actually, I think we should also build two visible and two radio spectrum telescopes, placing one of each type on opposite sides of the Earth's orbit of the Sun. This would effectively create a radio and visible light telescope with a "lens" the size of the Earth's orbit. But that probably won't happen anytime soon, so back to Hubble.

It cost 2.6 billion to get the big lug working, why throw it away so soon? Yes, there is limited space on future shuttle missions. Well why not do what we can to keep it at least in dormant state. That way, when we hopefully complete work on a new launch vehicle, we can take Hubble out of hibernation. But I think we need to get off our butts on the new launch vehicle. I heard an allegation that the X-33 program was canceled because Lockheed won the bid, but stood to make more profit by keeping their current rocket lines in service. I think Lockheed's version should be taken out again, refined, and put into service as soon as safety will allow.

Also, I think we need a new heavy lift rocket booster, at least on a par with the Saturn V, if not even stronger. We need it badly. Delta IV's and Titans simply can't effectively or efficiently pick up the slack. That would also cut down on shuttle flights necessary.

Have a good one, and just some thoughts...

Ratamacue
03-19-2004, 07:21 PM
The X-33 project was canceled because much of it was too far ahead of its time. Many of the materials required were too advanced for manufacturing with current technologies (primarily the graphite/epoxy composite fuel tank)...many of these materials failed during testing because of extremely minor flaws that would have ended up disastrous in flight. Basically, in order for the program to continue, Lockheed probably would have needed to almost scrap the design and go back to the drawing board. NASA decided to cut the program instead.

I agree though, that the program should probably be revived, though I don't really see that happening any time soon.

Tane Angle
03-19-2004, 07:38 PM
I don't know, the person I heard it from was a design engineer on that project at Lockheed. Also, consider that the DC-X's 1/3rd scale test craft flew. But you're probably right, given the complexity of the project. Regardless, yes, I think we should revive the program. I would be very surprised if there weren't still critical problems with the design, but that's why we should get to work on fixing them now, so that ten years from now we might be getting close to being able to use those space craft. That same engineer said something about his hopes that the discovery of nanotubes might enable designs and lift capability previously not considered viable. Have a good one bud, and just some thoughts...

Seraphim
03-19-2004, 08:55 PM
Weird how only two days after Bush's speak about increasing the budget for NASA, that Sean O'Keefe cancels the Hubble missions.



Heres an article for the X-43A project.

03.17.04
http://www.nasa.gov/home/hqnews/2004/mar/HQ_n04042_hyperx.html

Ratamacue
03-19-2004, 09:22 PM
Tane: most of the knowledge I have comes from my uncle, an electrical engineer at Lockheed. His specialty is weapons guidance, but he worked on the Venturestar/X-33 project for some time. I wouldn't be surprised if profit had something to do with the cancellation of the project, but to my understanding it was flaws not necessarily in the design but rather in manufacturing systems. But I'm not an expert on the subject, I'm just giving my input. :)

As for the X-43 and scramjets, I heard that NASA already performed a test flight but the booster attached to it went out of control. It's my understanding that if a scramjet were to be self-sufficient (no booster), it would need jet, ramjet, and scramjet engines in order to operate. Is this what NASA would probably do with a next-gen design or would they opt for a booster until reaching speeds at which scramjets could be used? It seems to me that the former would be cheaper and safer, as if a mission needed to be canceled while still going into space (or something like that), the aircraft would have propulsion of some sort to allow it to get back down safely without the speed it would have on reentry.

usa320
03-19-2004, 10:14 PM
Personally i think an upgraded model of the current shuttle would be the best way to go.

Replace the SRB's with liquid rockets, which are far safer.

Dump the tiles and make one big, 2 layer plate. Granted it will be heavier, but its worth it. Put new main engines in and a total revamp of the avionics.

As for the Hubble being safer place to fly than the ISS, thats not the case.

The hubble is more dangerous to fly too, because if something goes wrong on the shuttle their only choices are to re-enter or wait for a second shuttle to launch, which would take a week at least.

With the ISS on the other hand, if something goes wrong, they are already in the proper orbit to simply dock with ISS, and either fix the problem there or wait for a second ride home.

Ratamacue
03-19-2004, 10:25 PM
The problem is that the Space Shuttle is a design from the early 1970's..even the avionics and electronics are horribly obsolete by today's standards. To bring it up to date would take nearly a completely overhaul of the design, which really makes it more practical and safer in the end to create an entirely new design, which is where the X-33 came in. The problem is that NASA tends to create a commitment to something, then when problems arise decides to cut the project loose or just let it kind of fade away.

usa320
03-19-2004, 10:40 PM
The avionics arent obselete any more.

All the remaining shuttles have the Cockpit upgrade that adds a full glass cockpit...moern stuff, looks similar to the cockpit of an airbus.