Marines in Haditha, a Rant by TwistedPretzel.

[TwistedPretzel]

Thank you media for getting more soldiers killed, lengthening the healing process in Iraqi, possibly destabilizing the region forever, and undoing everything that has been worked towards for the last 3 years. Its not the Marines fault this happened, it is your fault, as the Media, choosing to cover this single event with such scrutiny, and making sure everyone in the world knows that yes, in fact the Marines probably did kill 3 houses worth of civilians in Iraq.

Covering the story is fine, it is your job to give us news. So why am i still hearing about it 8 months later? The Military is dealing with it, the Marines are being investigated. As the media, your job is finished. I am thankful.

You job is not to incite violence in the Middle East, there is enough of that to go around, but by reporting on this one event, for 8 months, daily, and by talking about what the Marines did, and how bad it was, you are killing soldiers and civilians each day. You are aggravating the current situation, as if it werent bad enough already. You are directly responsible for the deaths of several soldiers who were good people, people who never would have done what happened in Haditha. You are directly responsible for the deaths of civilians who are trying to live a simple life, not even in the same region that Haditha is in. You are directly responsible for the recruitment of dozens of suicide bombers and jihadists. You are directly responsible for millions of dollars donated to organizations who help terrorists. You have helped pave the way for future terrorist attacks, directly.

Now the military is paying, and wasting time for "core value" training in Iraq, when the soldiers could be trained how to react to an IED properly, how to assist in first aid, how to be a good soldier, which will probably further the death count in Iraq. You either have these core values, or you dont. They will be softened up, and more 'outbursts' like Haditha may occur.

If a loved one dies in the following years from a terrorist attack, anywhere in the world, thank CNN, thank Fox News, thank BBC, they are directly responsible, they have reported more, gone further then they should have, the damage was done with just that initial report, anymore is not needed, and will lead to more carnage and deaths. You have done more then you needed to, this usually means a good job, in your business, it could be just the opposite, remember that.

Thank you Media.

[joedirt]

8 months daily are you nuts?


this just became a major story when it initially broke it got very little coverage.

im so sick of pro military types being anti press...

[Secret Squirrel]

It hasnt even been 8 months since it occured...

[TwistedPretzel]

Daily is wrong. You get the just of it.

The event happened 8 months ago, and it has gotten a lot more press then it needs.

Everyone in the world knows about it, they can stop now.

A. It gets annoying whenever i visit news agency websites, because i am looking for news, not last months news, or the month before that, but current news.

B. It is killing people, it is recruiting and funding terrorists. Stories like this are bad enough, they do that already, thats fine, but when you run it this often, its over kill. Literally.

It happened in November, it is now June. November December January February March April May June. 8 Months

[Secret Squirrel]

Daily is wrong. You get the just of it.

Without the daily part your rant becomes nothing more than dellusion.


The event happened 8 months ago, and it has gotten a lot more press then it needs.

Everyone in the world knows about it, they can stop now.

A. It gets annoying whenever i visit news agency websites, because i am looking for news, not last months news, or the month before that, but current news.

The report is due in June...why do you think it's still in the news? Could it be because the story is still developing?


B. It is killing people, it is recruiting and funding terrorists. Stories like this are bad enough, they do that already, thats fine, but when you run it this often, its over kill. Literally.

It happened in November, it is now June. November December January February March April May June. 8 Months

Nov. 19 to Dec 19 (1 month), Dec 19 to Jan 19 (2 months), Jan 19 to Feb 19 (3 months), Feb 19 to March 19 ( 4 months), March 19 to April 19 (5 months), April 19 to May 19 (6 months), May 19 to June 1 (total = 6 months, 12 days). Please stay in school.

[ElHombre]

might i suggest that the main reason it's news is that the initial US report on the incident turned out to be a flat-out lie which took the efforts of iraqis themselves to bring to our attention?

[Count Lippe]

B. It is killing people, it is recruiting and funding terrorists. Stories like this are bad enough, they do that already, thats fine, but when you run it this often, its over kill. Literally.
So you think that the media is the reason behind this, not the deed itself?:cantbeli:

[kaspur_eh]

I love how he media has already convicted the Marines, but they take extra caution not to do the same to a child molestor.

[a_very_ex_STAB]

@Twistedpretzel

Here you go - from today's Daily Telegraph (UK)

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/core/i/t.gif http://www.telegraph.co.uk/core/i/t.gif

'Marines are good at killing. Nothing else. They like it'
By Oliver Poole
(Filed: 01/06/2006)

Audio: Oliver Poole on the situation at Haditha Dam

In January, shortly before the first published reports emerged about US marines methodically gunning down men, women and children in the Iraqi town of Haditha, The Daily Telegraph spent time at the main camp of the battalion under investigation.

Rumours had spread that what happened on Nov 19 diverged from the official line that locals were killed by a roadside bomb.

None of the troops wanted to talk, but even a short stay with the men of the 3rd Bn 1st Marine Division in their camp located in Haditha Dam on the town's outskirts, made clear it was a place where institutional discipline had frayed and was even approaching breakdown.

Normally, American camps in Iraq are almost suburban, with their coffee shops and polite soldiers who idle away their rest hours playing computer games and discussing girls back home.

Haditha was shockingly different - a feral place where the marines hardly washed; a number had abandoned the official living quarters to set up separate encampments with signs ordering outsiders to keep out; and a daily routine punctured by the emergency alarm of the dam itself with its antiquated and crumbling machinery.

Full story
http://tinyurl.com/nqfxe

[Rictor]

Oh please. If the same thing happened in another country, especially somewhere like Iran, the media would be making ten times as big a deal as they are. And everyone who is defending the Marines would be screaming for their heads. It is the media job to be objective, not to hush-up the wrongdoings of friendly forces.

[TwistedPretzel]

Woo, bit off a bit more then i could chew.


Oh please. If the same thing happened in another country, especially somewhere like Iran, the media would be making ten times as big a deal as they are. And everyone who is defending the Marines would be screaming for their heads. It is the media job to be objective, not to hush-up the wrongdoings of friendly forces.

Not what i said.

At all.

And you are wrong. Where was the media reporting on Saddam gassing the Kurds? Where is the media reporting on what is happening in North Korea?

Meh?

Dont hush it up, they are being investigated, court martialed, story over. No more media is needed.


So you think that the media is the reason behind this, not the deed itself?

Of course it was teh deed, but with every new report (thanks a_very_ex_STAB) they are doing more damage, especially with the one from a_very_ex_STAB.

Damage control, enough is done, time to stop.

[a_very_ex_STAB]

Of course it was teh deed, but with every new report (thanks a_very_ex_STAB) they are doing more damage, especially with the one from a_very_ex_STAB.



It's not my report. It's from today's issue of a British left wing commie pinko fag subversive newspaper

[TwistedPretzel]

Yeah, wouldnt have seen it without you putting here though.

[Pille1234]

Don't worry Gents, if the mission in Iraq fails than not because it was doomed to fail right from the beginning but only because of the evil press.

We know that from the Vietnam war. It was nearly won, just one more bombardment but the evil liberals and all these free press hippies betrayed us. :-*$

[Rictor]

Woo, bit off a bit more then i could chew.



Not what i said.

At all.

And you are wrong. Where was the media reporting on Saddam gassing the Kurds? Where is the media reporting on what is happening in North Korea?

Meh?

Dont hush it up, they are being investigated, court martialed, story over. No more media is needed.



Of course it was teh deed, but with every new report (thanks a_very_ex_STAB) they are doing more damage, especially with the one from a_very_ex_STAB.

Damage control, enough is done, time to stop.

It is a big deal because (and this is speaking only from my own subjective experience, but I think it reflect world opinion) the US government and/or military often take a "holier that thou" attitude, and make a point of proclaiming how they are essentially a bastion of civilized men among a sea of barbarians.

As for the Saddam's crimes not being reported, let me ask you this. Go around the world and ask 1000 people at random what's the first thing that comes to mind when you say Saddam Hussein. Most of them will instantly answer "dictator" or "murderer". How do you think that got to be? Does the world regard him as a tyrant and butcher because his crimes haven't been reported? Of course not. Every petty strongman around the world, from Bashar Assad to Islam Karimov, has been demonized over many years in the Western media, often deservingly. But like I said, if this had happened in an "unfriendly" country and was commited by their soldiers, the US government (and, I suspect, many people here) would be calling for a war crimes trial, for the death penalty, for sanctions etc etc. There would be no one defending the actions, no one rationalizing them or putting them "in context".

Stuff like this shouldn't be kept quiet, shouldn't be kept out of the public eye. The press should not be there to serve the interests of the United States (though it almost always does, that's the problem). It should be completely independent, and give every side an equally unbiased treatment.

[TwistedPretzel]

We know that from the Vietnam war. It was nearly won, just one more bombardment but the evil liberals and all these free press hippies betrayed us.
Yeah, put words in my mouth. Thanks.

I just think the amount of coverage it is getting is more then enough.

Media over does it a lot, i just decided to pick on this one case.

go ask any american who natalie holloway is, tehy all know, shew as on the news before i left the states, which was 10 months ago, and was on again about a week ago.

and Im not saying keep it quiet.

ffs, anythign but.

We all know about what happened, ask 1,000 people about Haditha and they will know. Enough, done, zip. No more coverage, not needed. They are being investigated and court martialed. The end. Stop.

Period.

[bluffcove]

Im sure that Iraq new of this event, and that those involved in extremist islam knew of this event.

Coverage in the western press embarasses us but it doesnt draw recruits eny more than the initial act did.

[California Joe]

The whole time I was reading that article STAB suggested I heard The Doors in my head. I wonder if their commanding officer was named Kurtz?

[Hollis]

Don't worry Gents, if the mission in Iraq fails than not because it was doomed to fail right from the beginning but only because of the evil press.

We know that from the Vietnam war. It was nearly won, just one more bombardment but the evil liberals and all these free press hippies betrayed us. :-*$

You may not realize it, you are closer to the truth than you know. Viet-Nam was lost in the battle that took place in the USA, not in RVN.

[2Sheds_Jackson]

The fact that sexy stories sell advertising space is nothing new. But it is remarkable to what lengths we will go to avoid making our enemies mad at us.

I'm waiting for the "leap". You know - the standard leap that is taken in situations like this, where the press begins to infer that this was not an isolated incident. I'm guessing that the editors already have the copy written, and are just waiting for the OK from the front office to print the words;

"it remains unclear whether this was an isolated incident of misconduct, or if these actions were part of a larger campaign directed by military commanders - and how far up the chain these orders came from"

or they could use the ol'

"The individual troops involved simply snapped. They had been operating in a climate of fear and violence, put in an impossible situation by inept commanders acting on orders from the Pentagon. Surely they must share some of the blame".

Wait for it.

[dangerclose]

I like how liberals care about the welfare of Iraqis unless it's one of their own murdering them.

If these marines are guilty of what they're accused of .. they're going to get theirs.

They should've shot CNN or BBC correspondents or reporters for the Guardian ... those aren't innocent civilians.

[a_very_ex_STAB]

They should've shot CNN or BBC correspondents or reporters for the Guardian ... those aren't innocent civilians.

Incitement to murder on t'internet - that's cool :roll:

[Roids]

"The individual troops involved simply snapped. They had been operating in a climate of fear and violence, put in an impossible situation by inept commanders acting on orders from the Pentagon. Surely they must share some of the blame".



I found it funny that you said that because my hippie liberal teacher said yesterday about haditha "The problem is that these kids shouldnt be put in these situations and the officers are going to get none of the blame for it".

[usmcprincipal]

I find it interesting that the article from the British tabloid is in complete contradiction to the CNN reporter who was embedded with the Marines from 3/1.

It would seem either one or the other is lying.

As an aside - when reading the article there is an implication that the casualties the reporter wrote about were experienced by 3/1 Marines. The six KIA's and the 14 KIA's were actually from 3/25 Marines.

Semper Fidelis

[bluffcove]

I didnt understand your post dangerclose, are you suggesting the women and children had shot at the marines?

the five year old children and toddlers?

[Pille1234]

You may not realize it, you are closer to the truth than you know. Viet-Nam was lost in the battle that took place in the USA, not in RVN.
I know that legend quite well that's why I came up with it p-)

[Belrick]

Twistedpretzel would have us all living in a fascist society.

State press, FFS you would think people of today would learn. All i can say is to go read some history books and learn. Heres some questions to hopefully make you think.

-Do you think that the average German civilian would of acted differently if they had actually known of auschwitz/Abu gharib or Oradour Sur Glane/Haditha due to the work undertaken by free press? Have you met many Germans today? Do you honestly believe they are much different to the average American? Yet we all know there bloody history during WW2, where does the difference lies? Perhaps the best way to describe the difference is Fascism vs freedom of speech?

Do you think that Haditha is the only such act to have been covered up in Iraq? Do you think knowledge of these bloody acts encourages more or lessens the likelihood of more being carried out? Would the US Goverment have closed Abu Gharib or opened more if the world still remained ignorant to them to this very day?

You come here b!tching about a societies right to know the truth that hundreds of thousands died to give you? You would rather the public remained ignorant to such acts?

[2Sheds_Jackson]

-Do you think that the average German civilian would of acted differently if they had actually known of auschwitz/Abu gharib or Oradour Sur Glane/Haditha due to the work undertaken by free press?

Not that I'm in agreement with TP, but if you are comparing Auschwitz to Abu Gharib, you may go sh*t in your hat on Monday morning, as my grandfather used to say. German leadership was directing vivisection on children, which is a long way from renegade individuals building a pyramid of naked guys to hurt their feelings.



Have you met many Germans today? Do you honestly believe they are much different to the average American?

That may be true enough- but I would not agree with comparing the average American and German in 1938. The average German in 1938 held what would be considered to be extremely racist views - this was not due to a lack of information from the press, but from holding a particular set of beliefs. The camps were an open secret - it's not that people didn't know, it's that they didn't care.



Do you think that Haditha is the only such act to have been covered up in Iraq? Do you think knowledge of these bloody acts encourages more or lessens the likelihood of more being carried out? Would the US Goverment have closed Abu Gharib or opened more if the world still remained ignorant to them to this very day?

Please do fill us in with your evidence of other covered-up events. Abu Gharib was dealt with as a matter of official investigation - you can choose to believe that the US government is evil incarnate if you wish, but it is simply not supported by their actions.



You come here b!tching about a societies right to know the truth that hundreds of thousands died to give you? You would rather the public remained ignorant to such acts?

Odd, I don't remember him saying any of that.

[Mr Gently Benevolent]

I find it interesting that the article from the British tabloid is in complete contradiction to the CNN reporter who was embedded with the Marines from 3/1.

It would seem either one or the other is lying.The Telegraph is pretty much a right wing news outlet and not a tabloid. Just saying.

[Moose]

When these kinds of things happen they are usually hidden, a short investigation is undertaken the soldiers get a slap on the wrist, some are relocated. The victims get some meagre compensation.

This is what would have happened if this had not been reported in the press.
Now real punishments will be given, I jump to that conclusion because it is clearly understandable that there has been a cover-up on some level, for example some one decided to compensate some of the survivors with about 2000 dollars, who and why if they died of a enemy bomb?

Thanks to the media inquiry in to this incident the top has felt a pressure to act. Other soldiers one the edge might think twice when they realise that their comrades might not lie for them.

This incident is sick and nothing should be said to try to make it understandable. There will be some of you who will say that they were under immense stress and pressure, well the same goes for suicide bombers, my sympathy for both is non existent.

You who think that this story should not be reported are a shame on the face of democracy and humanity.

[2Sheds_Jackson]

The fact that sexy stories sell advertising space is nothing new. But it is remarkable to what lengths we will go to avoid making our enemies mad at us.

I'm waiting for the "leap". You know - the standard leap that is taken in situations like this, where the press begins to infer that this was not an isolated incident. I'm guessing that the editors already have the copy written, and are just waiting for the OK from the front office to print the words;

"it remains unclear whether this was an isolated incident of misconduct, or if these actions were part of a larger campaign directed by military commanders - and how far up the chain these orders came from"

or they could use the ol'

"The individual troops involved simply snapped. They had been operating in a climate of fear and violence, put in an impossible situation by inept commanders acting on orders from the Pentagon. Surely they must share some of the blame".

Wait for it.

Oop I've quoted myself, because one of our own has picked up the mantle and run with it;

http://www.militaryphotos.net/forums/showthread.php?t=82600

ElHombre, bless his heart - he's nothing if not consistent p-)

[TwistedPretzel]

Wow.

Stop putting words into my mouth guys.

Several times i have said, the story should be anything but not reported.

You really should not reply unless you are going to read everything, and if you dont understand it.

Its done, everyone knows about, they can stop reporting, its damage control time.

[Atlantic Friend]

Well, IF the alleged shooting of civilians took place as is claimed, then it is not an isolated incident. It is an isolated CRIME, whose authors need to be punished with all the severity of the USCMJ, if only to show to the world, including the US and the Iraqi public opinion, what the American-led Coalition fights for and how it takes it seriously.

IF it appears the Marines have been wrongly accused, then I think their innocence must be repeated time and time again so as to dispel any doubt in the American, and hopefully the Iraqi, public opinions.

[Telnyashka]

I'm sick and tired of people using media as a scapegoat, it seems every problem with Military is because of media :rolleyes:

Wahh we lost Vietnam war Media's fault!
Wahh Media only talks about losses in Iraq Media's fault!

I think US Marines massacring innocent civilians is a major news story and SHOULD be talked about.

[Pandy]

Twistedpretzel would have us all living in a fascist society.

State press, FFS you would think people of today would learn. All i can say is to go read some history books and learn. Heres some questions to hopefully make you think.

-Do you think that the average German civilian would of acted differently if they had actually known of auschwitz/Abu gharib or Oradour Sur Glane/Haditha due to the work undertaken by free press? Have you met many Germans today? Do you honestly believe they are much different to the average American? Yet we all know there bloody history during WW2, where does the difference lies? Perhaps the best way to describe the difference is Fascism vs freedom of speech?

Do you think that Haditha is the only such act to have been covered up in Iraq? Do you think knowledge of these bloody acts encourages more or lessens the likelihood of more being carried out? Would the US Goverment have closed Abu Gharib or opened more if the world still remained ignorant to them to this very day?

You come here b!tching about a societies right to know the truth that hundreds of thousands died to give you? You would rather the public remained ignorant to such acts?

Hey man, State Media works.

[Superking]

"Most of them are from more liberal leaning media...books like Dirty War by Anna Politkovskaya are, alright, but have some facts missing. Overall it was an interesting read, but some of the facts were either misleading or outright wrong." -Telnyashka

I might still be hungover but isnt this a conflict in your message?

[Pandy]

They gonna make a movie out of our time, and people are going to wonder why we were so STUPID. Oh well, **** happens.

[TwistedPretzel]

Twistedpretzel would have us all living in a fascist society.

State press, FFS you would think people of today would learn. All i can say is to go read some history books and learn. Heres some questions to hopefully make you think.

Show me where i said it should be covered up? Show me where i said the public should not know?

I said the opposite.

I keep repeating myself though.

Damage control, its done, people know, time to stop reporting.

The incompetence on this board amazes me, you people put words in my mouth, and make all sorts of assumptions.

Stop.

[Kilgor]

It is a big deal because (and this is speaking only from my own subjective experience, but I think it reflect world opinion) the US government and/or military often take a "holier that thou" attitude, and make a point of proclaiming how they are essentially a bastion of civilized men among a sea of barbarians.

.

You think the US has only this attitude ? They still stone women to death in iran and hang people for pathetic reasons and the leaders call the country a moral and islamic paradise. The soviet union was calling itself just and moral names when it was sending millions to the gulag, china was the workers state when millions were dying from hunger. If you think the US is the only country that has called itself "just" names then you are very ignorant of history.

As for these crimes, yes they must be accounted for and brought to justice.

[Moose]

This thing is still going on, the investigation is continuing its not over and thus should still be reported. New facts apear as we speak.

[Durandal]

The whole time I was reading that article STAB suggested I heard The Doors in my head. I wonder if their commanding officer was named Kurtz?

No $hit...






Listen people. Don't blame the media for wrong doings. How can we even justify talk about blaming the media when thousands riot over a single person getting accidentally killed in a traffic accident because breaks fail on a truck.

Its a group of irrational people and you blame OUR media for their behavior?

That's like blaming **** for the pedophile.

Stupid.

[Hollis]

I think to speak in defense of the Media, we have to recognize it is just one of the institutions that offers checks and balances to our government. The Media is a important part.

The media like any other institution is also subject to the failings of humans and the corruption of power when left un-checked.

Recently we have seen a challenge to the "establish" players, CNN, NBC, ABC, and CBS by Fox News and Blog sites on the internet. When Rather presented, what he thought was a eleventh hour coup against Bush, the papers that would incriminate Bush, The Blogs blew those papers out of the water... they were forgeries.

The media has it's self-interest, no different than any other group or industry. I read once that the decline of US media happened about the time E. R. Murrow ended his broad casting career. New was supported by programming, The News was free to do as it please with out the pressure of persuasion by large advertisement buyers.

The TV media changed that, News had to sell, advertising too. The Free press became less freer. Which is not necessary evil or wrong. As long as there is healthy competition and a number if independent news services, the agencies help to keep each other in check.

The other aspect is that the USA is a very partisan political country. News papers tend to align themselves with one of the two major political parties. Unfortunately that can add to political self interest being expressed in the news content.

Example looks a CNN, Liberals and Democrats will agree with them and condemn Fox News, there reverse is true with conservatives and Republicans Fox News is great, CNN is not great. Fox News is having difficulties to get in to countries where the government has stronger controls over the media, such as Canada. Canada is also a partisan political country. It is all about self interest.

Fox News grew because the other major news networks were view by a large number of citizens as being, "TOO LIBERAL". Fox provided a alternative news reporting, and filled a void that was missing in the media. The internet and blogs also grew as people wanted to get past the partisan political banter and read the news, as unbiased as possible.

It all gets back to self interest and partisan politics. Even on this forum, some members responses are very predictable, they follow the "party" line. If they were in control of of any of the media out let, that bias would probably be sown in that media news reporting.

I don't feel partisan politics serves the interest of this country, most of the time. I don't see it ever going away, because people are intrinsically self-interest biased.

I would hate to see the media come under subjugation of any governmental body or become completely owned or dominated by a very small group of people. Like any other of the American institution it needs to be checked/balanced by we the people, certain constitutional legal protections, and healthy competition.

We as people have power in how we vote, and vote with our dollars (buying products). We can support those sponsors who support the Media of our choice. The media is no different than any other business, it needs to sell to live.

[annihilation]

Oh please. If the same thing happened in another country, especially somewhere like Iran, the media would be making ten times as big a deal as they are. And everyone who is defending the Marines would be screaming for their heads. It is the media job to be objective, not to hush-up the wrongdoings of friendly forces.

Not true, look at what goes on in Africa, barely any of that get reported.

[Fargin]

It does on my news. But I shoulden't be expected to hold US to the humanrights standart of a third-world country on the verge of humanitarian disaster or civilwar.

War is bad and bad things happen, because normal life, ordenary morality is exchanged by rules of engagements. Killing a person is bad, but in wartime, killing the enemy is perfectably accetable, just like a resonable ammount of collateral damage is. But no army can allow anarcy, dismissing ROE for personal vendettas.

A new investigation, hopefully a more through, will determine whether we're talking killing within ROE or rapid dogs in a blood frenzy. Guilty or not, there's serious doubts of the initial conclusion. Doubts have to be investigated, not dismissed.

[Firetxmi]

Hey man, State Media works.

Sadly, all too well.....

[Henry's Fork]

im so sick of pro military types being anti press...

And i am so sick of the press abusing it powers to lie and get people killed to sell papers and push ratings.

[Ea$y-8]

Haditha = My Lai of Iraq.

[AOCBravo2004]

This thing is still going on, the investigation is continuing its not over and thus should still be reported. New facts apear as we speak.

Actually no, the Article 32 investigation is over, it's moved on to Article 33, which is the forwarding of the charges to the Convening Authority.

[Durandal]

And i am so sick of the press abusing it powers to lie and get people killed to sell papers and push ratings.

Abusing powers?

Like, for instance, arresting someone, a citizen, and then locking them up with NO charges filed, no court appearance, no trial...for a indefinite period of time?

The press has no "power". The have rights. They do have to abide by certain laws, such libel or slander. They have no "power" though granted to them by the people.

People either do not like what they choose to report (some more biased than others depending on your views) and if they break the law they are subject to the penalties associated with it.

There have been times I have been unhappy with the media as a whole. That does not mean I am foolish enough to want a world without them...

...only a FOOL would NOT want the media.

Like it or not, they are the best watchdog group out there and the world would be FAR FAR worse without them.

As far as the Marine thing goes. If the Marines did it. Execute each motherƒucker. If not, let 'em go. Teach the world that we mean what our President preaches in a public forum: "A transparent, lawful, society."

[Fargin]

Haditha = My Lai of Iraq.
Iraq = Vietnam of the 21st century.

[Freibier]

Iraq = Vietnam of the 21st century. I said the same thing 2 years ago and got flamed for it by the flagwaving crowd of stupids.
Your guys in charge should've really come up with solutions for this mess by now ...
They're wasting lifes and time by doing absolutely nothing to improve the situation.

[a_very_ex_STAB]

I said the same thing 2 years ago and got flamed for it by the flagwaving crowd of stupids.
Your guys in charge should've really come up with solutions for this mess by now ...
They're wasting lifes and time by doing absolutely nothing to improve the situation.
Yeah exactly. Unfortunately it doesn't feel good to be in the current position of being able to say those chickenhawk morons 'I told you this would happen'

[Freibier]

Yeah, doesn't feel good at all

[Clarsachier]

Notice how historically, **** like this and the Mai Lai massacre comes out toward the end of a FUBAR debacle?

[Erik2a4]

might i suggest that the main reason it's news is that the initial US report on the incident turned out to be a flat-out lie which took the efforts of iraqis themselves to bring to our attention?

I believe that either NCIS, CID or AFOSI are the ones who actually began the investigation.

Different from a 15-6 or equivilent Commander's inquiry.

I am not an expert, I do not have an knowledge of the internal workings of the event, however I do not believe that the civilian media "broke" the story.

That's why elements like CID exist; as a check to internal investigations.

[Erik2a4]

Notice how historically, **** like this and the Mai Lai massacre comes out toward the end of a FUBAR debacle?

History is written through a prism.

I will not defend Mai Lai. That was a horrendous leadership failure. However, one atrocity by one platoon does not condemn the ENTIRE US military in Vietnam. Not anymore than one account of anti-semitism in Paris confirms that all Parisians are racist.

I would not use your example as proof that Iraq is a debacle for that very reason.

Tragic? Yes. Horrible? Yes. Does it condemn the future of the government and Security and Stability Operations in Iraq? Only if we allow our judgement to be clouded by sensationalism and fear.

[Erik2a4]

I said the same thing 2 years ago and got flamed for it by the flagwaving crowd of stupids.
Your guys in charge should've really come up with solutions for this mess by now ...
They're wasting lifes and time by doing absolutely nothing to improve the situation.

Having spend a little over 18 months over there, I take exception to that.

How long did the Marshall Plan take to reconstruct Germany after WWII?

How long WILL it take for entire former Yugoslavia to establish stable goverments without the necessity for foreign intervention?

Stability and Support Operations are difficult enough. As is Counter-Insurgency and Foreign Internal Defense.

Do you honestly and truly believe that if the Coalition Forces left Iraq right now that it would simply turn into a stable country?

There will ALWAYS be difficulities. But I would certainly prefer that Iraq not turn into Somalia after the 24 Pakastani and 18 Americans were killed. The UN/US pulled out...and now look at the violence.

Yes, mistakes have been made from the US President down to the lowest private on the battlefield. But the key is to determine if more correct actions are being taken instead of incorrect ones. And to make sure that people learn from their mistakes.

[Stolly]

Sure its the medias fault because they are the ones that decided to send the troops there, and they are the ones who didn't have a plan for what happens to the country after Saddam was gone.

They are also the ones who are laying the IED's and allegedly busting into houses and allegedly murdering 2 year old children.

Its the media's fault, because those dastardly reporters just go and report things. Can't be trusted, the lot of them.

[Fargin]

History is written through a prism.

I will not defend Mai Lai. That was a horrendous leadership failure. However, one atrocity by one platoon does not condemn the ENTIRE US military in Vietnam.
Tell me how long you think it will take and how much of the coalition you think is left in Iraq come '07?

But it did change to puplic sentiment from pride to shame. Seeing that naked napalm girl, lerning about the My Lai slaughter, made public support disappear.

Apparently some soldiers still don't get the overall picture and fail to understand a moments temptaion or weakness, can have serious effect on public oppinion. As long as an Wartime ROE is applied, it removes rescources from reconstruction iraq to protecting own asses first and foremost.

[Clarsachier]

History is written through a prism.

I will not defend Mai Lai. That was a horrendous leadership failure. However, one atrocity by one platoon does not condemn the ENTIRE US military in Vietnam. Not anymore than one account of anti-semitism in Paris confirms that all Parisians are racist.

I would not use your example as proof that Iraq is a debacle for that very reason.

Tragic? Yes. Horrible? Yes. Does it condemn the future of the government and Security and Stability Operations in Iraq? Only if we allow our judgement to be clouded by sensationalism and fear.

'And hindsight is 20/20.'

I wasn't saying that this incident is proof. I was pointing out that Mai Lai took place when Vietnam was a lost cause. And I'm theorizing that 'this incident' takes place in a similar time frame for this conflict. Which conflict also, I believe is FUBAR in as much as the stated goals of our government
are failing.

[Erik2a4]

Tell me how long you think it will take and how much of the coalition you think is left in Iraq come '07?

But it did change to puplic sentiment from pride to shame. Seeing that naked napalm girl, lerning about the My Lai slaughter, made public support disappear.

Apparently some soldiers still don't get the overall picture and fail to understand a moments temptaion or weakness, can have serious effect on public oppinion. As long as an Wartime ROE is applied, it removes rescources from reconstruction iraq to protecting own asses first and foremost.

I fail to follow your argument. However, allow me to luxury of responding to what I think you are attempting to argue in a cogent manner.

10-15 years.
The civilian leadership is not the same as the militaries leadership.
Public support is critical...as long as they vote.

Yes, apparently it IS easier to critique from the armchair. And yes, I AM patronizing you, for statements such as "As long as an Wartime ROE is applied, it removes rescources from reconstruction iraq to protecting own asses first and foremost", which plainly indicates to me that you read that in Le Monde, Das Spiegal, or another paper...because that is not how the recontruction process works (i.e. there are different sets of funding for Iraq and the military.)

There is no such thing as a "Wartime ROE".

The money assigned to reconstruction has a different funding source than force protection.

You would be suprised at how clearly the average soldier on the ground is able to understand his role in the "big picture." You would also be amazed at how few civilians in government understand (and overestimate) their role. Which is why the US military must win the "hearts and minds" of not only the Iraqi people, but the US citizens as well.

Leadership ain't easy. And if the Marines there did commit those acts of murder then they will be brought to justice. But I won't say that I don't understand. And I cringe when I think of how so many who have never been in situations like that so quickly condemn those who are.

[Erik2a4]

'And hindsight is 20/20.'

I wasn't saying that this incident is proof. I was pointing out that Mai Lai took place when Vietnam was a lost cause. And I'm theorizing that 'this incident' takes place in a similar time frame for this conflict. Which conflict also, I believe is FUBAR in as much as the stated goals of our government
are failing.

We are on year three.

Again, what appears to be logical, deductive and chronological in hindsight is often not the case.

Vietnam was not a simple problem of French+Indochina+Dien Bien Phu+Corrupt Saigon Leadership+LBJ+Mai Lai = Failure.

Life ain't so simple. The winning side can commit atrocites. Doesn't mean that all hope is lost.

I understand your viewpoint, but I simply disagree.

[Firetxmi]

Iraqi survivor wants U.S. troops executed

By KIM GAMEL, Associated Press Writers Sat Jun 3, 1:01 PM ET

BAGHDAD, Iraq - An Iraqi whose brother and other relatives were killed in a U.S. attack on a suspected terrorist hideout north of Baghdad condemned a military investigation Saturday that cleared forces of wrongdoing.

A 9-year-old survivor of an alleged massacre by U.S. forces in the western city of Haditha, meanwhile, demanded that those responsible be executed, as anger mounted over accusations that Iraqi civilians have been killed by Americans without provocation.

"We did not do anything to them," said Iman Walid Abdul-Hameed, who lost her parents, a brother, her grandparents and two uncles in the shootings. She said only she, her brother and a sister survived.

"Because they hurt us, we want the Americans to be executed," said Abdul-Hameed, wearing a violet striped shirt and headband as she sat on a couch at a cousin's home, where she is now living. She and her brother Abdul-Rahman were slightly injured during the shootings.

New footage shot by AP Television News in Haditha and broadcast Saturday showed walls pockmarked with bullet holes inside a stone house belonging to those killed. A dusty TV with an apparent bullet hole in the corner sat on the floor as furniture was piled up to the side in the emptied house.

A lawyer representing relatives of some of the 24 Iraqis allegedly killed by U.S. Marines after a roadside bomb killed a colleague pointed to bullet holes in the white walls, which appeared to have been marked by American investigators with Roman letters and numbers.

The lawyer, Khaled Salem Rsayef, complained that compensation paid to the victims' families did not reflect "the magnitude of the disaster." He also said U.S. officers accused him and other relatives of lying when they recounted the shootings in their first meeting with the military after the Nov. 19 killings. He did not say when they met.

The AP Television News footage also included an interview with the director of Haditha General Hospital and images of the scattered rubble in the median where the roadside bomb apparently struck a military convoy, killing the U.S. Marine.

The Marine Corps had initially attributed 15 civilian deaths to the bombing and a firefight with insurgents, eight of whom the Marines reported had been killed.

Rep. John Murtha (news, bio, voting record), a Pennsylvania Democrat and decorated war veteran who has been briefed by military officials, has said Marines shot and killed unarmed civilians in a taxi at the scene and went into two homes and shot others.

The hospital director, Walid Abdul-Khaleq al-Obeidi, said bodies of the 24 victims, including those of eight women and five children, were brought to the hospital by the Marines at 11 p.m., about 14 hours after witnesses said the last gunshot was heard at the scene of the shootings. He said the bodies had gunshot wounds to the chest and head, and one body was burned.

The New York Times reported Saturday that commanders learned within two days that civilians in Haditha were killed by gunfire and not a roadside bomb, quoting a senior Marine officer it did not name. The officer said officials had no information suggesting the civilians had been killed deliberately and saw no reason to investigate further.

The U.S. military in Baghdad declined to comment on the report Saturday because the investigation is ongoing.

In a separate investigation, the U.S. military said Friday it found no wrongdoing by American troops accused of intentionally killing civilians during a March 15 raid in Ishaqi, about 50 miles north of Baghdad. As many as 13 Iraqis were killed.

The investigation concluded that U.S. troops followed normal procedures in raising the level of force after coming under fire while approaching a building where they believed an al-Qaida terrorist was hiding, said Maj. Gen. William Caldwell, a U.S military spokesman.

Caldwell also acknowledged "possibly up to nine collateral deaths" occurred in addition to the four Iraqi deaths that the military announced at the time.

He said Saturday a great deal of attention had been paid to "coalition forces killing innocent Iraqi civilians. However, each case needs to be examined individually."

Issa Hrat Khalaf, whose brother was killed in the attack, demanded an independent investigation and said the U.S. forces responsible for the killings should be executed.

"Where are the terrorists? Are they the old lady or the kids?" he said in a telephone interview, referring to the fact that women and children were among the victims. "It looks like the lives of the Iraqis are worthless."

The bloody aftermath of the attack was captured at the time in the footage shot by an AP Television News cameraman. The video became the focus of attention Friday when the British Broadcasting Corp. aired it in the wake of recent allegations of U.S. troops killing unarmed civilians.

The footage shows five slain children lying a row, wrapped in blankets, and at least one adult male and four of the children with deep wounds to the head. One child has an entry wound to the side, and the inside of the walls left standing were pocked with bullet holes. A voice on the tape said there were clear bullet wounds in two people.

The investigation of the attack in Ishaqi, near Samarra in the Sunni Arab heartland north of Baghdad, was one of three probes into possible misconduct by American troops in
Iraq. U.S. Marines also are accused of deliberately killing two dozen unarmed Iraqi civilians in the western town of Haditha on Nov. 19 after one of their own died in a roadside bombing.

Besides Haditha and Ishaqi, seven Marines and a Navy corpsman could face murder, kidnapping and conspiracy charges in the April shooting death of an Iraqi man west of Baghdad.

Robert Ford, the U.S. Embassy political counselor, promised during a briefing for Iraqi reporters that "all information about what happened in Haditha will be shared with the Iraqi people."

"What is happening in Haditha is being fully investigated and American soldiers will face military justice if wrongdoings are found," Ford said in Arabic.

Army Brig. Gen. Donald Campbell, the chief of staff for U.S. forces in Iraq, said Friday the military will cooperate with the Iraqi government in its own investigation of Haditha and other incidents of alleged wrongdoing by U.S. troops.

Prime Minister Nouri al-Maliki on Thursday upbraided the U.S. military for "a horrible crime" in Haditha and accused U.S. troops of habitually attacking unarmed civilians. His office had no immediate comment on the exoneration of the troops in the Ishaqi killings.

link:http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20060603/ap_on_re_mi_ea/iraq_haditha_19;_ylt=AuCFjfx7qMx77ZWMng6jM5NX6GMA;_ylu=X3oDMTBiMW04NW9mBHNlYwMlJVRPUCUl

[Fargin]

-Alot of the willing are looking for a way out, atleast the european ones. Brits, Poland and Italiy I think.

-Danish engineers said mohammed cartoons made it difficult to win hearts and minds. Because rescources where allocated from engineers to tighter protection and movement outside base where restricted to a minimum. Becuase of bad publicity hostile activity increased and people were more reluctant to cooperate. Projects ceased.

-Still my point is, no matter how few bad apples you've got, if they are not removed from the basket, people will lose trust in the good ones too.

I also understand young men can find them in a situation that accelerate beyond their controle. But I understand how damaging it is, when soldiers are suspected of covering up execution of children. If you don't manage public trust, you'll end up repeating the ole mantra: "We won the battles, but..."

[pistol]

Thank you media for getting more soldiers killed, lengthening the healing process in Iraqi, possibly destabilizing the region forever, and undoing everything that has been worked towards for the last 3 years. Its not the Marines fault this happened, it is your fault, as the Media, choosing to cover this single event with such scrutiny, and making sure everyone in the world knows that yes, in fact the Marines probably did kill 3 houses worth of civilians in Iraq.

Covering the story is fine, it is your job to give us news. So why am i still hearing about it 8 months later? The Military is dealing with it, the Marines are being investigated. As the media, your job is finished. I am thankful.

You job is not to incite violence in the Middle East, there is enough of that to go around, but by reporting on this one event, for 8 months, daily, and by talking about what the Marines did, and how bad it was, you are killing soldiers and civilians each day. You are aggravating the current situation, as if it werent bad enough already. You are directly responsible for the deaths of several soldiers who were good people, people who never would have done what happened in Haditha. You are directly responsible for the deaths of civilians who are trying to live a simple life, not even in the same region that Haditha is in. You are directly responsible for the recruitment of dozens of suicide bombers and jihadists. You are directly responsible for millions of dollars donated to organizations who help terrorists. You have helped pave the way for future terrorist attacks, directly.

Now the military is paying, and wasting time for "core value" training in Iraq, when the soldiers could be trained how to react to an IED properly, how to assist in first aid, how to be a good soldier, which will probably further the death count in Iraq. You either have these core values, or you dont. They will be softened up, and more 'outbursts' like Haditha may occur.

If a loved one dies in the following years from a terrorist attack, anywhere in the world, thank CNN, thank Fox News, thank BBC, they are directly responsible, they have reported more, gone further then they should have, the damage was done with just that initial report, anymore is not needed, and will lead to more carnage and deaths. You have done more then you needed to, this usually means a good job, in your business, it could be just the opposite, remember that.

Thank you Media.

I couldn't have said it better myself. This is not the Marines fault. In fact, if CNN and the so-called American media had not reported on this incident, nobody in Haditha would have even known what happened. When Marines storm three houses and kill almost everyone inside, the only way this news could get possibly get out is the American media. Everyone knows Iraqis are incapable of publicizing things by themselves, and I bet neighbors and relatives of the victims would have never even questioned what happened without the voice of the Taliban aka Fox News reporting on it.

I couldn't agree more that the media needs to stop reporting on this NOW. The only way we are going to have an open investigation into what happened, and demonstrate to the world how America makes sure justice is served, is by silencing the press.

Further more, my heart goes out to all these soldiers who are now having to waste their time refreshing themselves on core American values. Trying to prevent incidents like what happened in Haditha from occurring in the future is not the answer. America would be better served by devoting those same resources to training the press just where exactly the first amendment ends.

[Firetxmi]

I couldn't have said it better myself. This is not the Marines fault. In fact, if CNN and the so-called American media had not reported on this incident, nobody in Haditha would have even known what happened. When Marines storm three houses and kill almost everyone inside, the only way this news could get possibly get out is the American media. Everyone knows Iraqis are incapable of publicizing things by themselves, and I bet neighbors and relatives of the victims would have never even questioned what happened without the voice of the Taliban aka Fox News reporting on it.

I couldn't agree more that the media needs to stop reporting on this NOW. The only way we are going to have an open investigation into what happened, and demonstrate to the world how America makes sure justice is served, is by silencing the press.

Further more, my heart goes out to all these soldiers who are now having to waste their time refreshing themselves on core American values. Trying to prevent incidents like what happened in Haditha from occurring in the future is not the answer. America would be better served by devoting those same resources to training the press just where exactly the first amendment ends.


:D Its like poetry.

[Deater]

8 months daily are you nuts?


this just became a major story when it initially broke it got very little coverage.

im so sick of pro military types being anti press...
I am so sick of the anti-military press undermining the war effort. It would be nice if the press could spend some time reporting on how the thousands of Iraqis slaughtered by the foreign terrorists is affecting the lives of the people there.

[Futile Talisman]

sorry to intrude, any open source documents on ROEs, I know Deut shut down a thread regarding TTP. Just interested in what Private___________ insert name here has from his platoon CO, Company Commander, as it relates to ROEs at check points.

If I don't get an answer, cool, undertstand OPSEC, just curious?

Either way, stay safe, and thank you.

JM

[Henry's Fork]

Abusing powers?

Like, for instance, arresting someone, a citizen, and then locking them up with NO charges filed, no court appearance, no trial...for a indefinite period of time?

The press has no "power". The have rights. They do have to abide by certain laws, such libel or slander. They have no "power" though granted to them by the people.

People either do not like what they choose to report (some more biased than others depending on your views) and if they break the law they are subject to the penalties associated with it.

There have been times I have been unhappy with the media as a whole. That does not mean I am foolish enough to want a world without them...

...only a FOOL would NOT want the media.

Like it or not, they are the best watchdog group out there and the world would be FAR FAR worse without them.

As far as the Marine thing goes. If the Marines did it. Execute each motherƒucker. If not, let 'em go. Teach the world that we mean what our President preaches in a public forum: "A transparent, lawful, society."

Easy hoss. Not one word of getting rid of the media from me. Where did you draw that conclusion from?

I think one William Randolph Hearst might dissagree with you about the media having no power. Power to change opinions and to set off violent human nature with words alone sure seems like power to me?

[Henry's Fork]

^^^ What about the SuN?p-)

[Henry's Fork]

Oh yea, page 3 girls are reason alone why i vacation in the UK.:oops:

[Crassus]

I did not want to start a new thread so I put this in here:


The marine unit involved in the killing of Iraqi civilians in Haditha last November had suffered a "total breakdown" in discipline and had drug and alcohol problems, according to the wife of one of the battalion's staff sergeants.The allegations in Newsweek magazine contribute to an ever more disturbing portrait of embattled marines under high stress, some on their third tour of duty after ferocious door-to-door fighting in the Sunni insurgent strongholds of Falluja and Haditha.
The wife of the unnamed staff sergeant claimed there had been a "total breakdown" in the unit's discipline after it was pulled out of Falluja in early 2005.
"There were problems in Kilo company with drugs, alcohol, hazing [violent initiation games], you name it," she said. "I think it's more than possible that these guys were totally tweaked out on speed or something when they shot those civilians in Haditha."


From:http://www.guardian.co.uk/Iraq/Story/0,,1790499,00.html

[a_very_ex_STAB]

I did not want to start a new thread so I put this in here:



From:http://www.guardian.co.uk/Iraq/Story/0,,1790499,00.html

I predict that the Borg Collective is not going to like this one

[NewsMan]

I would agree with a lot of this anti-media bitching, however, I'm pretty sure the Haditha killings were uncovered and pushed to the surface by a Iraqi human rights group. The media then ran with it...