Interesting Find and Story(WWII)

[Geezah]

So I went over to my wifes grandmothers to get a dead mouse out of the basement. While there, she told me a couple of the strip lights were out and would I change them. No problem, just need to buy new tube lights. Anyway,on my way back up she asked me to get a set of white snow camos at the bottom of the stairs.
I grabbed them, brought them up as she was explaining they belonged to her first husband who died in action in Feb 44. I startd looking at them and didn't think they looked like anything the Americans wore during WWII, not that I'm an expert. Anyway, I looked and found they were reversible, which I found strange, they have a rain/tear drop type camo almost similar to com-block rain drop camo. Well, I looked further and found it had a tag on it in German, so I'm guessing they're German issue, thing is she wasn't sure about them, as they were shipped back in his foot locker after he passed. So we started chating and she pulled a whole buch of stuff out that I thought I'd share(with her ok). Also looking for any info on the camo and origins?

The camo comes in two parts.
Top Front Snow
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v326/Geezah/100_07261Small.jpg
Top Back Snow
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v326/Geezah/100_07281Small.jpg
Bottom Front Snow
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v326/Geezah/100_07211Small.jpg
Bottom Back Snow
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v326/Geezah/100_07221Small.jpg

Top Front Camo
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v326/Geezah/100_07291Small.jpg
Top Back Camo
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v326/Geezah/100_07321Small.jpg
Bottom Front Camo
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v326/Geezah/100_07231Small.jpg
Bottom Back Camo
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v326/Geezah/100_07241Small.jpg

Grannys first husband is the guy in the middle,
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v326/Geezah/100_07341Small.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v326/Geezah/100_07331Small.jpg
Grannys picture 43
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v326/Geezah/100_07471Small.jpg
A pin she was allowed to wear as a wife of an Officer(servicemen?)
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v326/Geezah/100_07351Small.jpg
Unit Badge(?)
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v326/Geezah/100_07401Small.jpg
Badge while in Tn
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v326/Geezah/100_07411Small.jpg
Not sure on this one
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v326/Geezah/100_07391Small.jpg
Various pins
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v326/Geezah/100_07361Small.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v326/Geezah/100_07371Small.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v326/Geezah/100_07381Small.jpg
Not sure here
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v326/Geezah/100_07431Small.jpg
Postcards from the time period and where he was stationed(?)
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v326/Geezah/100_07441Small.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v326/Geezah/100_07451Small.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v326/Geezah/100_07461Small.jpg
And last but not least the Purple Heart he recieved
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v326/Geezah/100_07421Small.jpg

Hope you enjoy half as much as I did. Any help on the camo would be much appreciated.

Thanks

[simple jumper]

Very nice find! The camo is Wehrmacht Heer Issue, Stumpfmuster or something along those lines. www.wehrmacht-awards.com go onto the forum many known experts on german militaria there can help you out! Good luck!

[Geezah]

Thanks for the quick response, I knew it wasn't American but wasn't sure as to which German units would have worn it. It's in mint condition, hard to believe it's almost 70yrs old, quite heavy as well.

Thanks again.

[Holmer]

Anyway,on my way back up she asked me to get a set of white snow camos at the bottom of the stairs.


So just out of the blue she says that? And you just happened to have your camera with you? Are you selling these then?

[Dimebag]

The picture of the reversible splinter camo parka seems abit knew....

[Buckeye67]

You two need to go pull your heads out. If there's anyone around here you don't have to worry about being a scamming douchebag - it's Geezah.

Yeah, he's a bloody pom, but he's good people. Plus he owns more firearms than I do now...

Sent you a PM about that suit, Geez.

[Dimebag]

Go to www.fake.com and youll see lots of pic of it ;)

[TALOS]

Go to www.fake.com and youll see lots of pic of it ;)

Really? Now thats interesting, do you always make smart alec comments with no facts?
Maybe you can present evidence instead of just unhelpful snide asides.

[Victis Honor]

wow, nice find. woud like to know the story behind it (how he got it). But that woud ne pretty much impossible i geuss.

[OldRecon]

The triangle red/blue/yellow badge, should't that be the sleeve patch of 12th armoured div (if any such unit existed). Looks similar to sleeve badges of other US armoured divisions during WW-2. More or less all the same except for the numbering.
I'm a bit puzzled though. Since he died in Feb 44, I asume he was serving in Italy at the time of his death. But to my knowledge only the 1st US armoured served in Italy.
But I guess the badge could well also be a unit symbol for an independent tank battalion.
The Badge with the 8 I guess could mean he served with 8th army at the time of his death rather than the US 5th?
Given the state of US GI winter gear at the time I guess some "liberated" German gear would come in handy

[Geezah]

So just out of the blue she says that? And you just happened to have your camera with you? Are you selling these then?

No, I had passed the camo a number of times when feeding the cat but just thought they were hunting cammies. I had the camera with me because I was at a shoot on saturday and had downloaded video from the shoot to YouTube yesterday.
Something about my Wifes grandma is she is a goldmine when it comes to old stuff, she has a bring back P38 somewhere and a couple of Nazis helmets, of which I have only seen one.

And no I am not selling these, if anything I would like to secure them myself but I think she is dead set on given them to the historical society.

[Geezah]

The triangle red/blue/yellow badge, should't that be the sleeve patch of 12th armoured div (if any such unit existed). Looks similar to sleeve badges of other US armoured divisions during WW-2. More or less all the same except for the numbering.
I'm a bit puzzled though. Since he died in Feb 44, I asume he was serving in Italy at the time of his death. But to my knowledge only the 1st US armoured served in Italy.
But I guess the badge could well also be a unit symbol for an independent tank battalion.
The Badge with the 8 I guess could mean he served with 8th army at the time of his death rather than the US 5th?
Given the state of US GI winter gear at the time I guess some "liberated" German gear would come in handy

Yep, she told me he was at Mount Casino(sp) but I'm not sure if that is where he died.

Now she thought the camo was his, as in his issue camo, which surpised me as I was not aware of any camo being issued at that point to GIs. It was only upon closer inspection I thought there was something strange when she said it was returned in his foot locker after he passed.
It looks like it has spent all of its time white side out, that's the only way I can explain the condition of the camo seeing as it is close to 70yrs old.
Something that confirmed it was German was a tag sewn in 3 spots to the sleeve, which was pretty much broken up but still had readable German on it.
As far as sleeve badges and such, as I mentioned above, I'm not sure on the Unit but those were all the badges she had from his service, they had been going for a long time but had only been married a year, and she rarely talks about him to her kids or my Wife(her grand daughter), so I just sat back and took as much of it in as possible.

For the naysayers, couldn't care less what you think, the items aren't for sale, so I'm not that interested in value just the fact that they are an important part of history.

[mattnwnc03]

wow, theres no telling whats in every old persons basement. alot of museum material

[OldRecon]

...
Not sure on this one
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v326/Geezah/100_07391Small.jpg
...


That's the shoulder patch of the US 8th infantry division (a white 8, pierced by a yellow arrow on a blue shield according to this site http://www2.powercom.net/~rokats/div.html

[OldRecon]

Shure if your wife's granny haven't mixed dates & places here, as both these units only participated in combat in ETO (European theatre of operations) post D-day as opposed to MTO (Mediterranean theatre of operations) pre D-day?
8th infantry originaly was attached to US 1st army, later on occasion serving under US 3rd and 9th armies as well.
The 12 Armoured division served under Patton's 3rd at one stage at least.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v326/Geezah/100_07401Small.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v326/Geezah/100_07391Small.jpg

[Geezah]

^I'm not sure, she is very methodical when it comes to historical items, everythign I have posted(apart formt he camo) from a zipped leather binder, she told me that these were the items that belonged to him.

[Geezah]

After checking this link against the badges, it's starting to get confusing.
http://www2.powercom.net/~rokats/div.html

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v326/Geezah/100_07411Small.jpg
This badge belongs to the 80th Infantry Div. 'Blue Ridge Div.', out of Tn, this is where he started but they did not see action until mid 44.
Now her second husband was in and served under Patton, and I'm now starting to think that maybe some of the badges may have been mixed up.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v326/Geezah/100_07401Small.jpg
12th Armored Div 'Hellcat'

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v326/Geezah/100_07391Small.jpg
8th Infantry Div. 'Pathfinder Div.'

I'll print up the pics of different badges and units and take it over there tonight.

[Holmer]

No, I had passed the camo a number of times when feeding the cat but just thought they were hunting cammies. I had the camera with me because I was at a shoot on saturday and had downloaded video from the shoot to YouTube yesterday.
Something about my Wifes grandma is she is a goldmine when it comes to old stuff, she has a bring back P38 somewhere and a couple of Nazis helmets, of which I have only seen one.

And no I am not selling these, if anything I would like to secure them myself but I think she is dead set on given them to the historical society.

Cool Geezah....no disrespect was intended. If you get those helmets please post some pics. :)

[Big Lebowski]

wow thats amazing!

im sure theres some historical buffs that would pay large amount of cash for that camo.

thx for sharing

[Geezah]

I posted on another site and was advised where to look for numbers on the camo, the first is on the inside of the wind flap on the camo side of the jacket.
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v326/Geezah/100_07491Medium.jpg
This number is roughly 5" below the top pic, same area.
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v326/Geezah/100_07521Medium.jpg
This number is taken from the pants, just inside the wind flap on the snow side.
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v326/Geezah/100_07531Medium.jpg

Here's a letter my Wife's Grandma recieved with details as to where her first husband passed. Apparently he was a replacement Officer, which mght exlain why the badges do not match the theatre.
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v326/Geezah/100_07961Medium.jpg
Close up up.
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v326/Geezah/100_07971Medium.jpg

I have pictures of her second husbands unit and badges and pins which I will post in another thread.

[TallGuy]

The suit was issued to Heer and Luftwaffe troops.

This site has a repro suit, scroll down to the bottom:
http://www.1944militaria.com/heer_luftwaffe_camo.htm

[maple.leaf]

That's an awesome find - I once owned a similar set that had been found in a warehouse in Germany at the end of the war by an American officer. Except the set I had was in absolutely mint condition and had been made as a non-reversible type (i.e., camo-only, lined in grey artificial silk).

The camo pattern on your's is Sumpfmuster '44 - Marsh Pattern 1944 model - also known as "Tan and Water" by American collectors for some bizarre reason.

Not surprised that these turned up near Monte Cassino as there were German Mountain Troops, Airborne Troops and regular Infantry Troops stationed there - and it was very cold and rocky. So the thickness of the suit would have been nice, and the camo pattern would have worked quite well in that terrain.

I know an old guy here in the UK who served with the Fallschirmjaeger at Monte Cassino (got wounded) and in Normandy (got wounded again and taken prisoner).

[Geezah]

That's an awesome find - I once owned a similar set that had been found in a warehouse in Germany at the end of the war by an American officer. Except the set I had was in absolutely mint condition and had been made as a non-reversible type (i.e., camo-only, lined in grey artificial silk).

The camo pattern on your's is Sumpfmuster '44 - Marsh Pattern 1944 model - also known as "Tan and Water" by American collectors for some bizarre reason.

My Wife's Grandmothers is somewhat of a treasure herself, for a few weeks in June I was going over to her house taking pictures of items she has on hand, I've resized them all just need to get themonto a host website so Ican load them on here.
The camo as I understand it is Splinter not the marsh, I posted them on Wehrmacht-Awards.com and a few guys on their advised they were splinter not marsh as had been previosly mistaken for.



Not surprised that these turned up near Monte Cassino as there were German Mountain Troops, Airborne Troops and regular Infantry Troops stationed there - and it was very cold and rocky. So the thickness of the suit would have been nice, and the camo pattern would have worked quite well in that terrain.

I know an old guy here in the UK who served with the Fallschirmjaeger at Monte Cassino (got wounded) and in Normandy (got wounded again and taken prisoner).

Her first husband was a replacement officer and I think that's how he came to turn up in Italy.

[East Scout II]

Geez that suit is probably worth 5,000$ easy.......Fuk the assbag that says they are fake...German items like that had a lot of rayon in w/ the fabirc so they dont rot and disintergrate like most items of clothing like wool or cotton....

Geez Im speach less...

I tell you, you get my "God of the day" award for showing me that thread...They still havnt all opened. Slow PC but I just wanted to say thanks and that you are one lucky lucky lucky person...I went to every antique store in Salzburg looking for WWII items and you find a reversable suit while changing a fricken light bulb..ante that the way of it!

Ill tell you right now just from those pics its real a real set......... save all that stuff and tell Grand muma thanks from East Scout for letting you show us.

BTW the numbers are the Maker number,(RB Nummer) like a serial number or who/where it was made and they are a size1 small....The camo is not tan and water is normal Splittermuester 31 just like on a Zeltbahn and its the Autum side thats darker from the summer side (no real dif) .......Tan and water has rounder edges..

ES

[East Scout II]

Another thing I find interesting is how some of the repairs and other panels are different shade.Different runs on the screener I rekin and repair pieces from other suits or zeltbahns

[Geezah]

Thanks ES.

She brought out a K98 bayonet the other day, it even had the original frog, great condition. I didn't have my camera with me when I saw it and have asked that she get it out again for pictures. I also asked if she could get the Nazis helmets out and she was having a hard time remembering where she put them.
There's a War of 1812 musket down there, which I spoke to CJ about last year. I wanted to get pics but that was just before she went to Boston for cancer treatment(she goes back in a couple of weeks for the all clear) but the case it's in is locked and I don't want her to think I'm snooping through everything, even though I got the ok to photograph it before she left.

[East Scout II]

Helmets, German camo and bayonetes? Musket too? Your gonna make my head pop...Wow all that history at your finger tips..outstanding Bro..

Above all glad Grand'muma is doing well......I know I dont know her but its sad to hear stuff like that..

Is the Musket British or Colonial? I dunno if there is even a dif ..LOL

ES

[Geezah]

Helmets, German camo and bayonetes? Musket too? Your gonna make my head pop...Wow all that history at your finger tips..outstanding Bro..

There's a ton more, she has an orignal Dennis the Mennis doll that stands about a foot tall in the original box, these are just some of the things I've come across while down there just sitting out.



Above all glad Grand'muma is doing well......I know I dont know her but its sad to hear stuff like that..

She's a tough old bird, she broke her ankle when the missarse and me got together so that's why the wife and I take care of stuff in the basement, any leaks the kitty cat, that was close to 6yrs ago then she found out she had cancer wrapped around her Aorta Artery, so she went to Boston Mass where her daughter lives and works and had treatment there. She looks good fro mid 80s and going through what she has, and she'llbe back up there in August to get the all clear.



Is the Musket British or Colonial? I dunno if there is even a dif ..LOL

ES

I would say Colonial, given her family history, I'll ask if I can get a pic before she goes.

Thanks