Best small arms of the Second World War

[Lt. Wittmann]

It has always interested me to know who had the best small arms of the war. There were many good weapons on both sides, for example, the Ppsh, M1 Garand, and Sturmgewehr 44. I am curious as to what people think were the ultimate small arms of the war and why.

[ElHombre]

m1 garand, hands down. a semi-automatic rifle and the US made enough for all their troops.

[hammerlock]

The Lee-Enfield, fastest both action rifle in service with a 10 round mag. The garand is a fine rifle, but the SMLE No.4 Mk.1 is just better in my opinion.

[GeraldDuval]

Lee-Enfield No4 Mk1 for a number of reasons...

1.) It has a detachable 10 round magazine. Firepower is key. The british and canadian riflemen could lay down a sustained fire longer than any other axis or allied rifleman.

2.) the bolt design. Unlike any other bolt action rifle that I know of, the Lee-Enfield charges by pushing the bolt forward, not down. At first this feels clunky and stupid. But thats only at low speed. When firing from the shoulder as fast as you can, it feels like a dream. since most soldiers firing a bolt action put more force in the in/out rather than the up/down motion, it just makes more sense.
There was a report where germans attacked a british trenchline in WW1. They fell back because they thought they were facing massed machine guns. The bolt design allowed the brits to fire much faster than the germans even thought possible.

3.) safety. The enfield's safety is a switch that can be move with the thumb only. The safety on the mauser and Nagant (nagant is especially bad) are very loud and require much more force and a free hand to engage/disengage them.
It also has a hole drilled in the side of the reciever to vent gasses in the event of a burst case

4.) self contained cleaning kit. everything that you need to clean the rifle is housed in the butstock. both nagant and mauser only contain the cleaning rods. Also, unlike the M1 Garand, any significant jam can be cleared by kicking the bolt as hard as you can. with the M1 you have to sometimes disassemble and clean all the little parts.

5.) it's designed for a bayonet. unlike most other rifles, the enfield was designed with the bayonet in mind. It's a spike bayonet, so it doesn't look nearly as nice as any other, but that also means deep puncture wounds and no worries about getting the blade caught. Not to mention the rifle is balanced better with bayonet attached. Most pics of commonwealth troops i've seen, they've been fixed. Even if they were never used, it scared the **** out of the germans...Noone wants to be stabbed.

6.) better battle sights. This is a personal preference really. The enfield uses a front post and adjustable rear apature. It's similar to the M1 the mauser and nagant use a V nock instead.

7.) easily adjustable headspace. The front part of the bolt simply screws off and a longer/shorter one can be screwed on. The mauser, M1 and nagant need MUCH more work than that.

8.) easier to use when dirty. The chamber was made larger because all of englands colonies were producing ammo, and the size varied slightly. as a side effect, it had less fouling/jamming problems after getting really gross. plus there is no gas chamber to clean

9.) better stopping power. The Mk VII ammo had an aluminum insert in the rear of the projectile to shift the weight. When it was going down range, it was jast barely stable, but when it hit it tumbled in all sorts of directions, causing some pretty bad wounds.
Plus I just like the .303 British more than 8mm Mauser or .30-06 (but thats a whole nother argument)

[HOLLiS]

Kind of like arguing who is better in the sack....... a red head, a blonde or a brunette.

I own both a lee and Garand... I would say Garand. One reason you don't see bolt actions except for special rifles (snipers). When they got rid of the 8 rd clip and went to the magazine (M14).... absolutely no question.

As rounds go, they are about the same. Ergo, one can argue for years on which is better.

[Flagg]

Swedish AG42b and M38

Why? Because I own them :)

Other than that....I'd have to go with Garand, Finnish M39, LE, Swiss K31, pretty much everything else too....they're all good!

Except the Japanese Arisaka....just don't like it.

[onefast93z28]

[QUOTE=GeraldDuval]

4.) self contained cleaning kit. everything that you need to clean the rifle is housed in the butstock. both nagant and mauser only contain the cleaning rods. Also, unlike the M1 Garand, any significant jam can be cleared by kicking the bolt as hard as you can. with the M1 you have to sometimes disassemble and clean all the little parts.

[QUOTE]

I have to disagree with this point. The worst jam I ever had with an M1 was cleared with a swift stomp on the operating rod. I have never had a jam (nor have I ever met someone) that had one that needed a total disassembley.

Now I love the No4 Mk1, I am in the market for one right now, I just feel that this point is incorrect.

BTW the M1 also has a self-contatined cleaning kit ;)

[Kak]

The SVT-40.

[GazB]

I like the Enfield... have a Mk4* myself (the * means it is made in the US by Savage for the British). Would disagree with a few points made however...

The safety on the mauser and Nagant (nagant is especially bad) are very loud and require much more force and a free hand to engage/disengage them.


Agree that the Mosins safety requires force, but disagree it is "loud".

it's designed for a bayonet. unlike most other rifles, the enfield was designed with the bayonet in mind.

The Mosin was also designed with its bayonet in mind. Most are zeroed with it fitted, and most are spike bayonets that have a tip in the form of a screwdriver tip for disassembling the rifle with.

easily adjustable headspace. The front part of the bolt simply screws off and a longer/shorter one can be screwed on. The mauser, M1 and nagant need MUCH more work than that.


Headspace is only an issue with semi rimmed modern cartridges. Fully rimmed rounds like the 303 and the 7.62 x 54mm R headspace means nothing. For semi rimmed ammo it is vital for consistant accuracy.

The Mk VII ammo had an aluminum insert in the rear of the projectile to shift the weight. When it was going down range, it was jast barely stable, but when it hit it tumbled in all sorts of directions, causing some pretty bad wounds.


Actually moving the cg forward would improve stability in flight rather than reduce it... in much the same way a shuttlecock with its mass at the front and light feathers to the rear stabilises rapidly in flight. It is tail heavy rounds that tumble... like the 5.45mm Russian round.

Personally I like the sights of the Mosin Nagant, though the short barrel models have a bit too much muzzle flash and kick they are handy and compact weapons.
BTW None of the standard full calibre rifles of WWII lacked power.

[HorrigEn]

Stg 44
Because its the first gun of its class.
+Ak 47 directly made from this gun.

http://world.guns.ru/assault/mp44_1.jpg

[Icarus1]

Swiss Karabiner 11 :)

It's a very good weapon, very accurate at 300m and the 7.5mm GP11 is the hell of a bullet. Problems: Bolt Action Carbine, every shot has to be charged (although this goes fast by just pulling the handle back) and the magazine is only 6 shots.

Best thing now: Only costs about CHF 50.- (40$), and in Switzerland you can buy them without any paperwork, just need to show your Passport.

Manufacturer: W+F, Eidgenössische Waffenfabrik, Bern
Lenght: 1.103 mm
Weight: ca. 3,9 kg ungeladen
Barrel: 592 mm
Cal: 7,5 x 55 GP11
Muzzle V: 760 m/s
Rate of Fire: 12 shots/min
effective range of fire: 300 bis 400 m
Magazine: 6 shots

[TheBelgian]

I'm not well versed on guns, but I always loved the Sten guns. Cheap, easy to make, but effective.

[ClydeFrog]

small arms? that would include MG42 right? so that's it then...

[gaijinsamurai]

My favorites?

Rifles: M1 Garand, Stg.43/MP44

I own four Enfields, and while I like them (especially the jungle carbine), I like the Mauser's action better. I think the Mauser had better and smoother machining, resulting in a faster bolt operation (at least in my experience).

Submachineguns: Thompson M1928 and M1, MP38/40, PPSh41.

Difficult to say which is my favorite of these. Aesthetically, I love the Thompson and the MP40, but the PPSh 41 was a reliable workhorse and was a highly prized weapon for landsers on the Eastern Front.

Machineguns: Without a doubt, the MG42. Especially with its belt-fed operation and removable barrel. There's a good reason it is still in use!
A close runner up would be the Bren. Not because it was anywhere near as good, but because I personally like it. Honorable mention would have to go to the Vickers (but for defensive purposes only, due to its weight and bulk), M1919, BAR, and the MG42's predessesor, the MG34.

Pistols: The 1911A1 .45. I also am a big fan of the Browning Hi-Power, P-38, and Radom. Even though it was obsolete, I also have a special place in my heart for the Luger, and have a couple of them in my collection.

[gaijinsamurai]

Oops! I forgot to mention the FG-42.

[gaijinsamurai]

I can't say I'm a big fan of Stens. Too many malfunctions.
I wasn't much of a fan of the M3 greasegun either, but after I had the opportunity to fire one, I withdrew some of my criticisms. Sure, it is ugly and feels like crap compared to the Thompson, but its low cyclic rate makes it easy to control, giving it good accuracy for a SMG. Plus, what's not to like about the .45 ACP round?
For second-line troops, or someone like a mortarman, medic, or engineer, the M1 carbine wasn't a bad weapon. Sure, the .30 carbine was a pipsqueak compared to the .30-06, but it was (and still is) a handy and light personal defense weapon.

[Blumenteufel]

Stg 44 set a new trend, so did the Mg42 ( regarding production methods ) which is as we all know still in use today.

I think you can´t say there´s a single best small arm since this stretches over too many classes. For Mp´s I would say definately say the Russsian PPSH, for MG´s it´s the MG42, taking the role it was intended for and how it performed there into account.

[gaijinsamurai]

I think you're right, Blumenteufel. A lot boils down to personal preference, especially when it comes to pistols and carbines/SMGs/rifles. I am partial to the M1911A1, but if another guy prefers the Browning HP35 or P.38, I can respect that.
There are some designs, however, that are hard to justify calling the best, such as the Reising, the Carcano, or (with all respect to The Belgian) the Sten, especially when compared to what the Russians, Germans and Americans produced. The only thing I can really say positive for the Sten was that it was cheap to produce.

[DE6]

The M1 Garand, IMHO, best rifle of WW2. Hands down the most reliable semi-auto rifle, accurate, sturdy.

For SMG, I'd go with a soviet PPSh41.

MG, that's easy, MG42.

[mi35d]

MK4 Enfield's were produced with spike and blade bayonets. All rifles of the time were designed to accept bayonets so to say, "it was designed for bayonets" is like saying a car is better because it was designed to have a radio installed.

Sustained ACCURATE fire is different than rapid volley fire. If this wasn't the case, we'd all still be using bolt action rifles based on the LE.

[a_very_ex_STAB]

Lee-Enfield No4 Mk1 for a number of reasons...



I'm not going to say 'its the best' but I do own a No. 4 Mk2 :)

The thing I like about the Lee vs the K98 or Mosin Nagant is you have twice the magazine capacity and great flexibility about how you reload. You can load from either stripper clips, loose rounds or simply detach the mag and put another loaded one in. Infantryman friendly

[HOLLiS]

I'm not going to say 'its the best' but I do own a No. 4 Mk2 :)

The thing I like about the Lee vs the K98 or Mosin Nagant is you have twice the magazine capacity and great flexibility about how you reload. You can load from either stripper clips, loose rounds or simply detach the mag and put another loaded one in. Infantryman friendly

I am with you there, My preferences would be M1 Garand, then the Enfield, then K98, then the mosin.

[a_very_ex_STAB]

I am with you there, My preferences would be M1 Garand, then the Enfield, then K98, then the mosin.

I would certainly like to own an M1 Garand :)... but given where I live it's not going to happen

[deagle]

the best rifle in war is the one that makes the most impact. sg44 didn't play major role, but m1 did from the get-go. true, we can squeeze off less rounds in less time for every enfield shot.

[onefast93z28]

Stg 44
Because its the first gun of its class.
+Ak 47 directly made from this gun.

http://world.guns.ru/assault/mp44_1.jpg

Not exactly.

The AK47 is basically an M1 Garand action upside down with a detachable box magazine. The only thing he took from the germans was the concept of the "assault rifle".

[ClydeFrog]

No no no, not this again. The AK47 is not a Garand and it's not a StG44. It's an AK47. Period.

[foxtrot023]

The M1 Garand, IMHO, best rifle of WW2. Hands down the most reliable semi-auto rifle, accurate, sturdy.

For SMG, I'd go with a soviet PPSh41.

MG, that's easy, MG42.

I agree 100%

[HorrigEn]

Not exactly.

The AK47 is basically an M1 Garand action upside down with a detachable box magazine. The only thing he took from the germans was the concept of the "assault rifle".
Oh...well thanks for correction
Anyway I vote for Stg44

[CPL Trevoga]

MGs - 50 cal and MG42
SMGs-PPSH41
Bolt action rifles - German/UK/Russian - all good
Semi-auto - M1 (Exellent rifle and standard issue for US)

[DeltaWhisky58]

Swiss Karabiner 11 :)

It's a very good weapon, very accurate at 300m and the 7.5mm GP11 is the hell of a bullet. Problems: Bolt Action Carbine, every shot has to be charged (although this goes fast by just pulling the handle back) and the magazine is only 6 shots.

Best thing now: Only costs about CHF 50.- (40$), and in Switzerland you can buy them without any paperwork, just need to show your Passport.

Manufacturer: W+F, Eidgenössische Waffenfabrik, Bern
Lenght: 1.103 mm
Weight: ca. 3,9 kg ungeladen
Barrel: 592 mm
Cal: 7,5 x 55 GP11
Muzzle V: 760 m/s
Rate of Fire: 12 shots/min
effective range of fire: 300 bis 400 m
Magazine: 6 shots

Look at the title of this thread ... ...

Last time I looked, the Swiss did not participate in WW2, so despite the fact that the Schmidt Rubin bolt action rifle is superb, it hardly counts does it?

:bash:

I would also point out that we have had so many threads of this type, that if you search hard enough almost all the posts here are probably duplicated elsewhere.