Chechen Warlord Surrounded in Pakistan

[obd]

Hey everyone, just heard over the newswire:

Audio survielance as well as reports from captured prisoners have revealed that the "important personality" rumoured to have been surrounded by Pakistani forces is actually a top Chechen warlord. According to Pakistani newspapers and press releases, a large number of the rebels captured so far have been Chechen nationals who have said that thier leader is in the area.

This would not surprise me as there has been close cooperation with Chechen rebels and Al Queda. Osama Bin Laden has called Chechnya "the second Muslum nation" of course meaning Afghanistan as being the first true Muslum state.

Also, in after action reports release by the United States Army to the public after the Afghan offensive campaign, it was reported that a great many Chechens were killed by US Special Forces. Apparently, these Chechens were surving in top field positions guiding the Taliban war effort. For example, on one of the bodies in the Khost area a diary was taken off a dead Chechen coander with notes compairing how the Americans fought vs. his experience in Chechnya fighitng the Russians.

He said, "The Americans fight very hard. They learn and adapt quickly and do not retreat. They are very different from the Russians. When you kill a Russian Officer the rest of them run around like chickens with thier heads cut off. When you kill an American officer, someone else takes control very quickly and they keep up the attack. The death of an American officer seems to have little effect on thier fighitng spirit or capabilities. The Americans are excellent marksman. They open fire from great distances and they rarely miss. American infantry move much slower than Russian infantry but they use many helocopters and drop men all around even under our fire. Thier body armor protects them from our weapons and it is necesarry to aim for thier heads or legs to have effect on them. Our most effective weapon against them is our mortars. They cannot match our acuracy and we have inflicted many casualties using mortars to ambush American infantry column slowly moving to our positions."

There was alot more, moslty talking about effectivness of US airpower and special forces compaired to Russians...........

[SeanAshi]

If he is caught hand him over to the Russians! woot

He said, "The Americans fight very hard. They learn and adapt quickly and do not retreat. They are very different from the Russians. When you kill a Russian Officer the rest of them run around like chickens with thier heads cut off. When you kill an American officer, someone else takes control very quickly and they keep up the attack. The death of an American officer seems to have little effect on thier fighitng spirit or capabilities. The Americans are excellent marksman. They open fire from great distances and they rarely miss. American infantry move much slower than Russian infantry but they use many helocopters and drop men all around even under our fireI doubt the Russians will like to hear this and will dismiss it imedetly.

[YankeeDeVallecas]

Source?

[obd]

Im sure they will bit we all know that the Russian army is composed of a huge mix of capabilities in Chechnya. You have the highly professional men such as the OMON, SOBR, Spetsnaz, Russian Marines, etc and then you have the contraktniki (spelling?) which are mercenaries and then you have some regular army units pulled in from all over Russian some of which are very poorly trained and equiped.........

Im sure Perski OMON, Russian Texan, and the others will denounce it. I hope they keep in mind it is not me who is saying this. It was a chechen field commander who had his dead body searched by US troops in A-stan. US troops were surpirsed at his observations so they gave his diary to higher intelligence.

This was only a small part of his diary. Apparently it included very keen observations of US tactics and measures to defeat them...... From reading his diary US troops felt he was a highly trained and experienced Chechen, probably a former officer in the Russian army as many Chechens are...

One thing his observations did show is an almost complete lack of understanding of the US military, its organization, and its abilities. The dead mans diary shows how he was totally surprised by how deadly US airpower was and how effective the small numbers of Spec ops were. But it also shows that he recovered quickly from his shock at how good the Amercan GI was and began to adapt new ways on how to kill them that would have been very effective according to the US Army (who did not disclose what those "new ideas" were).

[Ratamacue]

Source?

Yeah, I don't really disbelieve all this necessarily, but you should provide a source with any kind of news you post.

[obd]

source is from an old Associated Press. report which came out after it was discovered that large numbers of Chechens were turning up dead after battles with US soldiers. It was a big story at time because around the same time Vladimir Putin had claimed a link between Chechen seperatists and Al Queda and some people doubted it and called it Russian propaganda. Well, it turned out Putin wasnt lying and lots of Chechen fighters were turning up captured and killed and of course a whole series of news articles came out to cover this story.

One such article dealt with a US Army release about the issue of Chechens and the reporter who wrote it from A-stan interviewed some US Spec-ops who said they had found a high level Chechen fighters diary after they had killed him. They were talking about how the Chechens they faced were very very good fighters and fought with almost suicidal zeal like all they wanted was to kill one American.

Another thing from the same article mentioned how the Chechens would pop up from trench lines and take huge risks just to taunt American soldiers. (although Afghans did this at Tora Bora as well) Some died while shouting taunts. US Spec ops said that after a while they would joke when they ran into stiff resistance and say, "oh we have run up on some Chechens again".

[scm77]

obd: "This would not surprise me as there has been close cooperation with Chechen rebels and Al Queda. Osama Bin Laden has called Chechnya "the second Muslum nation" of course meaning Afghanistan as being the first true Muslum state."

Are you sure bin laden thinks that Afghanistan is the first true muslim state? What about Saudi Arabia? He started truly hating americans when they stationed troops in saudi arabia, because it was the muslic holy land.

[Russian Texan]

He said, "The Americans fight very hard. They learn and adapt quickly and do not retreat. They are very different from the Russians. When you kill a Russian Officer the rest of them run around like chickens with thier heads cut off. When you kill an American officer, someone else takes control very quickly and they keep up the attack. The death of an American officer seems to have little effect on thier fighitng spirit or capabilities. The Americans are excellent marksman. They open fire from great distances and they rarely miss. American infantry move much slower than Russian infantry but they use many helocopters and drop men all around even under our fire. Thier body armor protects them from our weapons and it is necesarry to aim for thier heads or legs to have effect on them. Our most effective weapon against them is our mortars. They cannot match our acuracy and we have inflicted many casualties using mortars to ambush American infantry column slowly moving to our positions."

There was alot more, moslty talking about effectivness of US airpower and special forces compaired to Russians...........

You know what is really funny - I have read an article, well actually several articles, where mujahedeen are completely dissing american troops fighting abilities in comparison to the soviets, so do chechens who fought/fight in Afganistan and Iraq. "Cowards", "not flexible", "lack of creativity", "poor morale", etc.. are the words usually used in conjunction with "american soldiers":lol:
So what to believe? :)

If indeed those stories/articles are real (lately major players in the media business admitted to releasing made-up stories) then they reflect nothing but combatants personal experiences in various situations, just like statements by german WW2 pilots: some of them reffered to Eastern front as "hell", some said airwar over Europe was the worst and some aces from both fronts got shot down in Africa...
I don't think that Iraqis who captured pvt. J. lych thought too highly about US soldiers back then, same goes for those guys who captured 3 rather sorry looking GIs during Kosovo campaing...
Entire Russian military isn't made up out of "spetsnaz grade" people but neither every US soldier is SF ;)

BTW, don't you find it atleast suspicious that a muslim/chechen would praise his enemy? Shouldn't that "diary" say something like: "those american pigs, infidels, etc...." ;)


obd, you are so obvious man, c'mon you can do better.... :)

[obd]

Russian Texan, usually Im with you man and I agree with everything you post and stuff but not this time!!

you say, "Mujahadeen reporting that US troops in A-stan are poorly trained, poorly motivated, not adapting, etc"

What are you retarded man!!!! US special operations troops are some of THE MOST motivated, creative, adapting, and fearless soldiers on the planet!!!! Its a wonder how they can say such things and you take it as possible truth when they are also complaining about over 40,000 of them being killed!!!! Anyone on this forum who personally knows US SF troops (such as I do) or is a real deal operator (such as I am not hehe) will tell you this......

I wonder of the 30,000++ Iraqis who died during Gulf War 2 and the 90,000++ who died during Gulf War One would say such things!!!

Look, everyone on this forum knows all about what kind of quality troops Russian has. I have read a hell of alot about Chechnya inlcuding things published by the US Army War College which can be found on a site called "MOUT" which stands for Military Operation in Urban Terrain and posts military studies of urban warfare and such. Fact is, Russian troops in Chechnya as a whole (that means on average) have been found to be EXCEEDINLGY poorly disciplined, poorly trained, to have the highest suicide/disertion rate of any combat force in the world, etc.....

Of course, people like Perski Omon and such who were part of the elite do not fit into this category. Russia has enough rubles to pay for their training and ammo expences and such and there is NO DOUBT in my mind they are very fierce fighters.......but Russia faces massive morale problems.

Also, this Chechen is not the only Afghan to call US forces far superior to Russian troops. A great many other commanders said same things. Some of this was intercepted by radio as units sought to warn eachother about American forces and tactics. Other information was found of dead Taliban commanders and thier diary writings, more was foudn off captured Taliban who were extensively interviewed by US Army and such.......There is a HUGE amount of info on this if you take the time to look for it. Run a search. Go to official websites and websites like FAS.org and Janes Defense and such which keep track of military matters such as these.......

What I said about the captured documents in the 100% truth. I am not making up crap to try to pump up US or anything nor am I trying to make fun of Russia. I simply posted an interesting thing related to Chechens fighting.

Fact is, American and Coalition forces have killed and captured a huge number of Chechens who left the fighitng in Russia or were already training in A-stan when the war started. I guess they would rather kill "American swine" than "Commie bastards" hehe.....Maybe Allah prefers dead Americans over dead Russians...........

[obd]

Oh and Russian Texan, the word "coward" is not usually associated with American soldiers.

I would remind you that American soldiers have prevailed in battle against some of the bravest and most determined fighters of this world. Men with proud military history and a history of military victory and the "warrior mindset". Men like Japanese and German soldiers in World War Two, Germans in World War One, North Korean and Chinese soldiers during the Korean War, Vietnamese in the Vietnam War, Iraqi's during two Iraq wars, Serbians during the Kosovo campaign, Somali fighters in Somalia, Panamanians, Granadans, Haitians, etc etc etc.

The US has been in more wars over the last 50 years than any other nation on this earth. It has hands down the most war experience of any nation on this earth over the last 50 years.....basically it can be said that the US is the most combat experienced nation in MODERN WARFARE. Not to mention, we have the biggest military budget of any nation on this earth and no nation with an Army anywhere near as large as ours maintains our level of training. Sure, some smaller militaries with 10,000 men may have greater training rates than the US Army but keep in mind that the US Army Rangers have 10,000 men and have some of the best and toughest training the world has to offer.

In addition, The United States is requested to help train the militaries of other nations more than any other nation on this earth. When someone asks you to help train thier army, that sais alot about what they think about Amerian military men and ability. So again Russian Texan, the world does not use the word "coward" to describe US troops unless they our jealous fools trying to make themselves feel better!!!!

Some American soldiers are 2,3, and 4 war veterans. To have some Russian say they use the word "coward" to describe American fighting men is a little bit funny...........

Look, I never called Russian cowards as you called my nations fighitng men. I simply stated a tactical observation from a Chechen fighter. And lets not mix things up. The Chechens sent you guys packing home real fast during the first Chechen war and they are still fighting today and have killed and wounded a great many Russkie troops!!!!

Russian lost well over 12,000 men in A-stan. I bleieve the current US death toll for A-stan stands at 179 men lost with over 30,000 estimated Taliban, AQ, Afghans, killed in action. That says a helluva lot.....

Now, Russians killed 1 million during the A-stan war but most of that was civilians due to starvation, mass bombing, etc..... That 1 million number includes those who died of disease and starvation in camps for refugees.............

You can respond however you want but keep in mind this Russian Texan: Most people here are not Russian and were never subjected to state controlled news propaganda and know the truth about what happened in Afghanistan and Chechnya so I would advice you to keep that in mind.............

[obd]

Oh and Russian Texan, the word "coward" is not usually associated with American soldiers.

I would remind you that American soldiers have prevailed in battle against some of the bravest and most determined fighters of this world. Men with proud military history and a history of military victory and the "warrior mindset". Men like Japanese and German soldiers in World War Two, Germans in World War One, North Korean and Chinese soldiers during the Korean War, Vietnamese in the Vietnam War, Iraqi's during two Iraq wars, Serbians during the Kosovo campaign, Somali fighters in Somalia, Panamanians, Granadans, Haitians, etc etc etc.

The US has been in more wars over the last 50 years than any other nation on this earth. It has hands down the most war experience of any nation on this earth over the last 50 years.....basically it can be said that the US is the most combat experienced nation in MODERN WARFARE. Not to mention, we have the biggest military budget of any nation on this earth and no nation with an Army anywhere near as large as ours maintains our level of training. Sure, some smaller militaries with 10,000 men may have greater training rates than the US Army but keep in mind that the US Army Rangers have 10,000 men and have some of the best and toughest training the world has to offer.

In addition, The United States is requested to help train the militaries of other nations more than any other nation on this earth. When someone asks you to help train thier army, that sais alot about what they think about Amerian military men and ability. So again Russian Texan, the world does not use the word "coward" to describe US troops unless they our jealous fools trying to make themselves feel better!!!!

Some American soldiers are 2,3, and 4 war veterans. To have some Russian say they use the word "coward" to describe American fighting men is a little bit funny...........

Look, I never called Russian cowards as you called my nations fighitng men. I simply stated a tactical observation from a Chechen fighter. And lets not mix things up. The Chechens sent you guys packing home real fast during the first Chechen war and they are still fighting today and have killed and wounded a great many Russkie troops!!!!

Russian lost well over 12,000 men in A-stan. I bleieve the current US death toll for A-stan stands at 179 men lost with over 30,000 estimated Taliban, AQ, Afghans, killed in action. That says a helluva lot.....

Now, Russians killed 1 million during the A-stan war but most of that was civilians due to starvation, mass bombing, etc..... That 1 million number includes those who died of disease and starvation in camps for refugees.............

You can respond however you want but keep in mind this Russian Texan: Most people here are not Russian and were never subjected to state controlled news propaganda and know the truth about what happened in Afghanistan and Chechnya so I would advice you to keep that in mind.............

[SFontaine]

Here here, OBD.

You kill an American Officer and a Junior Officer takes over. You kill the Junior Officer an NCO takes over and it keeps rolling down and down and down. The United States and The United Kingdom are two of the countries that have a brilliant NCO system. In most armies there's a huge divide between Enlisted and Officer but not in the US and UK armies where extremely well trained NCOs bridge the gap.

[Backis]

If anything the US problem is being over-aggressive...

Very effective, but perhaps causing some unneccesary friendly fires and civvie casualties.

The "coward" statements perhaps comes from the tendency to use artillery or air power to knock out enemy strongpoints. Me, I call that being smart! :D

And the US/UK NCO system rock.

:hug:

[Russian Texan]

you say, "Mujahadeen reporting that US troops in A-stan are poorly trained, poorly motivated, not adapting, etc"
I say that? Read my post again.

What are you retarded man!!!! US special operations troops are some of THE MOST motivated, creative, adapting, and fearless soldiers on the planet!!!!
How do you know that?
I am sure people from other countries would make exactly the same statements about their SF. Not that I am disagreeing with you, actually quite contrary, but lets stay objective....

Its a wonder how they can say such things and you take it as possible truth when they are also complaining about over 40,000 of them being killed!!!!
When and where they are complaining?

Anyone on this forum who personally knows US SF troops (such as I do) or is a real deal operator (such as I am not hehe) will tell you this......
It is not what you or me think about US SF, you quoted me one article, I quoted you another article in order to get the point across and the point is - "Do not believe everything you read"


I wonder of the 30,000++ Iraqis who died during Gulf War 2 and the 90,000++ who died during Gulf War One would say such things!!!
Nothing, they are dead....

Look, everyone on this forum knows all about what kind of quality troops Russian has.
99% of people on this forum don't know anything about Russia, let alone its military... Most of what they know is based on "tenth hand accounts" and CNN "experts" comments, so trust me - most people here do not have a knowledge, they have opinions...
I have read a hell of alot about Chechnya inlcuding things published by the US Army War College which can be found on a site called "MOUT" which stands for Military Operation in Urban Terrain and posts military studies of urban warfare and such.
And what makes them such an experts in that area? Also how much actual urban warfare experience does US military have?

BTW, I have also read www.iraqwar.ru, you get my point....

Fact is, Russian troops in Chechnya as a whole (that means on average) have been found to be EXCEEDINLGY poorly disciplined, poorly trained, to have the highest suicide/disertion rate of any combat force in the world, etc.....
Found by whom? And if everything is so bad, how come they won?
Do you think that kids who went to the military to get some college money have the same motivation and discipline as SEALs and such?

Of course, people like Perski Omon and such who were part of the elite do not fit into this category. Russia has enough rubles to pay for their training and ammo expences and such and there is NO DOUBT in my mind they are very fierce fighters.......but Russia faces massive morale problems.
Why? What kind of "massive moral problems" and on what scale?

Also, this Chechen is not the only Afghan to call US forces far superior to Russian troops. A great many other commanders said same things. Some of this was intercepted by radio as units sought to warn eachother about American forces and tactics. Other information was found of dead Taliban commanders and thier diary writings, more was foudn off captured Taliban who were extensively interviewed by US Army and such.......There is a HUGE amount of info on this if you take the time to look for it. Run a search. Go to official websites and websites like FAS.org and Janes Defense and such which keep track of military matters such as these.......

What I said about the captured documents in the 100% truth.
Did you see those documents yourself?

I am not making up crap to try to pump up US or anything nor am I trying to make fun of Russia. I simply posted an interesting thing related to Chechens fighting.
And I have simply posted an info that I read about, it is not a flame, it an objective look/analysis.


Fact is, American and Coalition forces have killed and captured a huge number of Chechens who left the fighitng in Russia or were already training in A-stan when the war started. I guess they would rather kill "American swine" than "Commie bastards" hehe.....Maybe Allah prefers dead Americans over dead Russians..........
I think that "sponsors" prefer dead Americans, besides Chechnya is lost while Afganistan still remains a question...

Just keep in mind that media in every country tailors its news/reports/stories to their specific audience.
You quoted your article, I quoted mine. Both sources seem to have their own opinions and cater to different audiences.
Question is: which one to believe? The answer is: neither one....

[Argyll]

When I was Instructing Anti tank ,back in the 80's ,we taught Soviet doctrine ,in their methods of attacks ,Regiment composition,key vehicles etc,and it was back then, the case ,that if you cut off the head the body was inneffective,Commander led formations from the rear,and directed their plans if ront of them.
This we were told back then was due to the fact that there was no such thing as a chain of command that we had,as there was a distinct gap between their Officer corps and the Conscripts.

I'm not familiar with the Russian doctrine today

[Backis]

When I was Instructing Anti tank ,back in the 80's ,we taught Soviet doctrine ,in their methods of attacks ,Regiment composition,key vehicles etc,and it was back then, the case ,that if you cut off the head the body was inneffective,Commander led formations from the rear,and directed their plans if ront of them.
This we were told back then was due to the fact that there was no such thing as a chain of command that we had,as there was a distinct gap between their Officer corps and the Conscripts.

I'm not familiar with the Russian doctrine today

Well, the reason the Soviets trained with strict doctrinal command in the kind of mechanized operations you describe is that they didn't wan't to rely on a command structure that may be disrupted by jamming and deep interdiction strikes. This also cuts down on the need for advanced leadership training on company-platoon and squad level, and gives resilience to the kind of "structure damage" I mentioned. Dangers are of course a more predictable behaviour in the field (adherence to the laid out doctrine, unit or individual creativity discouraged since it can obstruct other units adherent to doctrine and so on).

While this may well work and give the wanted "shock" effect by a sustained assault in the face of severe casualties in the scales of units intended (batallion and up), I don't think it works that well on small-scale infantry units, where dangers and tasks are much more diffuse and rather difficult to paint out in a coherent doctrine. In these tasks I'd hold individual and unit creativity and skill as much more important than doctrine adherence.

[Russian Texan]

I would remind you that American soldiers have prevailed in battle against some of the bravest and most determined fighters of this world. Men with proud military history and a history of military victory and the "warrior mindset". Men like Japanese and German soldiers in World War Two, Germans in World War One, North Korean and Chinese soldiers during the Korean War, Vietnamese in the Vietnam War, Iraqi's during two Iraq wars,
Did I get you right: you said the bravest and most determined, right?
Serbians during the Kosovo campaign,
Bombing campaing is not exactly the same as a ground war....
Somali fighters in Somalia, Panamanians, Granadans, Haitians, etc etc etc.
If I recall correctly US withdrew from Somalia, didn't it? You said "prevailed", right?
Panamanians, Granadans, Haitians, Yeah those were some top notch militaries....


The US has been in more wars over the last 50 years than any other nation on this earth.
Is this is something to be really
proud of?

It has hands down the most war experience of any nation on this earth over the last 50 years.....
Prove

basically it can be said that the US is the most combat experienced nation in MODERN WARFARE.
Said by whom, you, "experts"?

Not to mention, we have the biggest military budget of any nation on this earth
So? You are also have the most expensive military "on this earth"....
and no nation with an Army anywhere near as large as ours maintains our level of training. Sure, some smaller militaries with 10,000 men may have greater training rates than the US Army but keep in mind that the US Army Rangers have 10,000 men and have some of the best and toughest training the world has to offer.
Did you, or for that matter anyone, trained in every army in the world?
So your statement is based on.....books, movies, History Channel?


In addition, The United States is requested to help train the militaries of other nations more than any other nation on this earth.
That is done to project influence....
When someone asks you to help train thier army, that sais alot about what they think about Amerian military men and ability.
They don't ask to train, they ask for money that comes with it.
I read a funny story recently: US SF instructors were training Georgian commandos and had a safe with $150.000 stolen from them by their very own students, now that is funny...
Wake up and smell the coffee: People in those countries do not care for US training methods, standards or what US stands for, they care about the money and other free-bees that come with "asking US military for help"...

So again Russian Texan, the world does not use the word "coward"
Go to any muslim website and see/read what they say about americans for yourself, don't take my word for it.

to describe US troops unless they our jealous fools trying to make themselves feel better!!!!
I am sure they would desagree...

Some American soldiers are 2,3, and 4 war veterans. To have some Russian say they use the word "coward" to describe American fighting men is a little bit funny.......
#1. 2,3, and 4 war veterans. Ok 2, may be 3 I'll buy but 4!, which ones?

#2 Did I describe American soldiers as "cowards" or did I just quote the article which did?



Look, I never called Russian cowards as you called my nations fighitng men.
Hearing voices, having visions.....?

I simply stated a tactical observation from a Chechen fighter. And lets not mix things up. The Chechens sent you guys packing home real fast during the first Chechen war
No, corrupt russian politicians did, get your facts straight
and they are still fighting today
Where?
and have killed and wounded a great many Russkie troops!!!!
And?

Russian lost well over 12,000 men in A-stan.
USSR has lost 13,331 men in Afganistan over 10 years, it also controlled entire country! while US forces do not control anything but their several base camps.
I bleieve the current US death toll for A-stan stands at 179 men lost with over 30,000 estimated Taliban, AQ, Afghans, killed in action.
USSR in Afghanistan can not be compared to the US in Afghanistan, USSR in Afghanistan equal US in Iraq, poin. BTW is you like comparing numbers so much:
USSR lost 89 KIA during its first year in Afganistan, how many did US loose in Iraq? What don't like that comparison?


Now, Russians killed 1 million during the A-stan war but most of that was civilians due to starvation, mass bombing, etc..... That 1 million number includes those who died of disease and starvation in camps for refugees.............
No comment...

You can respond however you want but keep in mind this Russian Texan: Most people here are not Russian and were never subjected to state controlled news propaganda
Yeah, most people here are the subject to poor education, closed minds and propaganda by the "free western media" (New York Post, USA Today and Washington Post and their fact based stories come to mind for some reasoin ...
And you think that media in Russia is state controlled?(rolling eyes big time)
Do you read russian? If you did you wouldn't make such stupid comments...

and know the truth about what happened in Afghanistan and Chechnya
How do they know the truth?

so I would advice you to keep that in mind
Why? I am not here to please anyone and indulge their brainwashed sense of superiority



Obd, your posts on this topic are the biggest monument to the lack of knowledge, inability to think independently, arrogance and ignorance combined. I understand it is esay to give in to the raging hormones and emotions in your age but I just never though the one could do it to such an extent....

[16 OBr SpN]

To have some Russian say they use the word "coward" to describe American fighting men is a little bit funny...........

Not only it's funny, it's stupid! Besides, I don't see Russian Texan stating it.


The Chechens sent you guys packing home real fast during the first Chechen war and they are still fighting today and have killed and wounded a great many Russkie troops!!!!

Was it the Chechens, or was it the government who sent us home? ;)



Russian lost well over 12,000 men in A-stan. I bleieve the current US death toll for A-stan stands at 179 men lost with over 30,000 estimated Taliban, AQ, Afghans, killed in action. That says a helluva lot.....


Comparing these two operations is totally incorrect. I hope you understand why. ;)

Regards,
16 OBr SpN

[Russian Texan]

While this may well work and give the wanted "shock" effect by a sustained assault in the face of severe casualties in the scales of units intended (batallion and up), I don't think it works that well on small-scale infantry units, where dangers and tasks are much more diffuse and rather difficult to paint out in a coherent doctrine. In these tasks I'd hold individual and unit creativity and skill as much more important than doctrine adherence.

Hit a nail right on the head.
For a smaller scale combat, "slimmer" and more flexible troops should be used, troops like VDV, naval infantry, various spetsnaz.

[16 OBr SpN]

When I was Instructing Anti tank ,back in the 80's ,we taught Soviet doctrine ,in their methods of attacks ,Regiment composition,key vehicles etc,and it was back then, the case ,that if you cut off the head the body was inneffective,Commander led formations from the rear,and directed their plans if ront of them.
This we were told back then was due to the fact that there was no such thing as a chain of command that we had,as there was a distinct gap between their Officer corps and the Conscripts.

I'm not familiar with the Russian doctrine today

You're right about that. The inflexibility of the command structure was one of the main problems in tactical planning during the first stages of the Afghan war.
The indicator of that was a much higher success rate of de-centralized/autonomous units, especially SpN. Fast reaction units, required a much faster planning/decision making.

Of course, since the end of Afghan war, both our doctrine and field manuals were refined, and are still being refined.

Regards,
16 OBr SpN

[Ichhabe]

obd said:


Russian lost well over 12,000 men in A-stan. I bleieve the current US death toll for A-stan stands at 179 men lost with over 30,000 estimated Taliban, AQ, Afghans, killed in action. That says a helluva lot.....

As they say: I don't want to piss on your parade, but:

First, back when the Russians were in Afghanistan, body armour was not common.
Without classify my self as an expert on this issue, but I think that a lot of US-soldiers have been saved by that.

Second, and the most important one: The USA still have many Afghan Warlords on their side, cause they are pumping in Dollars to them.
But one day, when that money flow stops, or they start to crank down on their heroine-traffic: That will be the day that Coalliton-losses will sky rocket.

Is it one thing that I have learned, it is that Afghan Warlords are prette sly. They know how to play this game. They only let ISAF and all the others think that they have the controle, cause it suits them for now.
The Afghan President even don't controle the country as far as he can see. He barely controle Kabul.

So don't snuggle yourself in to a false sense that the US-troops controle Afghanistan. Cause they don't. The different Warlord do that. In their own regions.

And one doesn't need a crystal ball to see that one day the **** will hit the fan...

[Argyll]

The US has been in more wars over the last 50 years than any other nation on this earth. It has hands down the most war experience of any nation on this earth over the last 50 years.....basically it can be said that the US is the most combat experienced nation in MODERN WARFARE.

I think this has been brought up before,and was proved to be BS,the Brits have been involved in as many if not more conflicts. ;)

There have been countries who've been fighting each other for decades,I'd say their experiences makes them combat experienced does it not?

Russia has been in conlict with the Afghans for 10 years in the 80's whilst the USA did what?Grenada and Panama?Which were in terms of Operations pretty minor compared to the Afghan offensives.

Then the Russians were at war with the Chechens during the 90's again this is ongoing,at present,so lets say foe at least 8 years, so in my book that makes Russian Forces fighting continious combat for at least 18 of the past 24 years..........I think obd that they have the edge over the US on this

Alos British troops have been involved on active Duty in Northern Ireland since 1969,against Terrorism.......which also gives them an advantage of combat effectiveness and experience does it not?


Not to mention, we have the biggest military budget of any nation on this earth and no nation with an Army anywhere near as large as ours maintains our level of training. Sure, some smaller militaries with 10,000 men may have greater training rates than the US Army but keep in mind that the US Army Rangers have 10,000 men and have some of the best and toughest training the world has to offer.

Having more money in relation to todays types of warfare means Jack **** buddy,a $10 anti personnel grenade can have the same effect as a Million dollar cruise missile.Budgets mean ****,it's the training of the soldier that's more efficient.
Ranger Training..........is it any tougher than Para training here in the UK?
Is it harder than Royal Marine basic?Is it harder than Israeli para's basic?..qite an invalid statement to make unless you happen to have gone through all of these Basics then to single out the rangers as the toughest is laughable at best.......books can't give you blisters from webbing burns buddy!!and walking to the bookstore /library is no substitue for tabbing 40km's across country in the pissing rain with 60kg on you back!!

In addition, The United States is requested to help train the militaries of other nations more than any other nation on this earth. When someone asks you to help train thier army, that sais alot about what they think about Amerian military men and ability. So again Russian Texan, the world does not use the word "coward" to describe US troops unless they our jealous fools trying to make themselves feel better!!!!

And you know this from fact do you?The brits are also everywhere as well

Some American soldiers are 2,3, and 4 war veterans.

Mere conjecture,when describing a war ,you talk about WW1 ,WW2,Korea,Vietnam,and Possible GW1,the rest were not wars in the terms everyone else understands apart from you?.
Grenada,Panama,Haiti,Somalia were not wars buddy.

also lets not forget that In these wars mentioned above the USA were not alone,in Korea they were under the UN,in Vietnam they had the Aussies,in both Gulf wars they had Coalitions............the Russians on the other hand in Afghanistan and Chechnya fought them alone.

So before you enter a pissing contest make sure you drink plenty,otherwise you're gonna fall at the start line ;)

[Ichhabe]

Argyll said:


So before you enter a pissing contest make sure you drink plenty,otherwise you're gonna fall at the start line

What about humbleness?? (sp?)

Man, I hate when someone just bragg and bragg and bragg. And they probably never been to any uniformed units exept maybe the Boy Scouts. :|

[Argyll]

Argyll said:


So before you enter a pissing contest make sure you drink plenty,otherwise you're gonna fall at the start line

What about humbleness?? (sp?)

Man, I hate when someone just bragg and bragg and bragg. And they probably never been to any uniformed units exept maybe the Boy Scouts. :|

Armchair Generals never win wars mate ;)

I try to back what I say through personal experience and info passed from within the "inner circle",if I'm wrong I usually admit to it,and am quite able to eat humble pie should the need arise........but there are a few real "experts" here who should really just sit back,shut up amd listen and learn.........just because you're the biggest kid on the block doesn't mean your the hardest ;)

[Backis]

There is fighting and there is fighting...

Iraq and Iran were barely finished slugfesting each other when Desert Storm started. The Iraqi's were battle hardened alright, but that didn't help them one bit.

Experience is good. But experience of what?