What is the next for SOF BDU?

[STA]

I'm not sure it was an issue of discussion... What do you think about the next generation BDU for US SOFs? Are they going to adopt new digital BDU's acording to each branch (as ACU for army, MARPAT for recon etc.) or they would go with modified BDU's (SWG Raid BDU or smth. like that)?

[aimforthemedic]

ABUs FTW! p-)

[STA]

Means, Abu's (as an arab. name) FTW (acr. of FT - Fatigue, W - Wear)??? :lol:
No, man, seriously... We need it for our airsoft team uniform which plays a role of SF advisory team.

[Blarney]

Multicam in 07.

[ris6]

US SOf will use SOPAT. Click in google and you will find out.

[ris6]

http://www.hyperstealth.com/SOPAT-3/index.html

[Baboonass]

http://www.hyperstealth.com/SOPAT-3/index.html


LOL, that is so friggen stupid.

[BadKarma26]

I have a buddy with 1st SFG and asked him. He replied, "naw we're sticking with the mod BDU for a while". heres a picture he sent (although I think this particular pic is a standard pair of BDUs)

http://img161.imageshack.us/img161/8803/657063088l4ws.jpg (http://imageshack.us/?x=my6&myref=http://imageshack.us/)

[Guy Cramer]

Multicam is not slated for U.S. regular forces use, it is used to prototype new equipment in the U.S. Army Future Force Warrior program, however, Special Forces have the option to use it if they want to as they do not need to wear regular forces issue.

[Guy Cramer]

The Navy SEALs will have the option of a U.S. Navy regulation pixalated Woodland and Desert color variants of the new Blue/Grey NAVPAT. I've been told those NAVPAT Woodland and Desert uniforms are in limited trials but we are not involved in that program.

[Baboonass]

The Navy SEALs will have the option of a U.S. Navy regulation pixalated Woodland and Desert color variants of the new Blue/Grey NAVPAT. I've been told those NAVPAT Woodland and Desert uniforms are in limited trials but we are not involved in that program.


Were did you hear this?

[Guy Cramer]

Where did you hear this?

The manufacturer in the U.S. told me and the press release from the Navy talks about it:

"To meet the all-weather requirement, the new working uniform will include several cold weather options, such as a unisex pullover sweater, a fleece jacket, and a parka. It will also be made in three variants, all in a multi-color digital print pattern: predominately blue, with some gray, for the majority of Sailors and shipboard use; and a woodland digital pattern and a desert digital pattern for Sailors serving in units requiring those types of uniforms."

http://www.navy.mil/search/display.asp?story_id=22519

[Baboonass]

The manufacturer in the U.S. told me and the press release from the Navy talks about it:

"To meet the all-weather requirement, the new working uniform will include several cold weather options, such as a unisex pullover sweater, a fleece jacket, and a parka. It will also be made in three variants, all in a multi-color digital print pattern: predominately blue, with some gray, for the majority of Sailors and shipboard use; and a woodland digital pattern and a desert digital pattern for Sailors serving in units requiring those types of uniforms."

http://www.navy.mil/search/display.asp?story_id=22519


I see that the Navy will be adopting this, but I don't see anywere that NSW will be.

Did you hear this from the source?

[Guy Cramer]

I see that the Navy will be adopting this, but I don't see anywere that NSW will be.

Did you hear this from the source?

From the manufacturer who is working with the Navy.

[Guy Cramer]

The U.S. manufacturer refused to print our pattern which we had secured a large order for as they claimed it was to similar to the NAVPAT. http://www.hyperstealth.com/replicam/

We are awaiting a ruling from the U.S. Navy

[Baboonass]

So this is speculation, not a difinitive answer.


It's better to be up front with that kind of info to avoid confusion.

There are a lot of "maybes" in the contract world. I can site literaly thousands of projects that never made it past the trial phase.

[Guy Cramer]

Oh I see what you mean; will the SEALs be forced to wear a particular pattern - the answer will always be no - as you yourself know - they can wear whatever they want - within reason.

While I am under contract to the U.S. military, as I stated earlier, I am not part of the NAVPAT program.

[Baboonass]

Oh I see what you mean; will the SEALs be forced to wear a particular pattern - the answer will always be no - as you yourself know - they can wear whatever they want - within reason.

While I am under contract to the U.S. military, as I stated earlier, I am not part of the NAVPAT program.


No, what I ment was, this is not official as of yet, but in the process of consideration.

You stated that this was already a done deal, I'm just trying to find out if this was the case or not, which it isn't as of yet, but could be.


Jeeze, this is starting to sound like an Abbot and Costelo gag.

[Guy Cramer]

I can't confirm or deny anything further - "who's on first"!

[angry cow]

Honestly, why wouldn't the Navy be able to use MARPAT?? Isn't the whole thing designed for naval ground forces. Yes Marines, that is what you are.

[Zvucni Efekti]

Anything is better than the feldgrau and seafoam green ACUs. :roll:

[Creeper]

and I thought running around base (seriuosly) in the 'issued' black "SPEEDOS" was the ultimate commando look !

[p51]

Funny that this would come up now.
A few weeks ago, I was talking with some guys from 1st SF Group. They all had woodland BDUs on, and I asked when they were getting ACUs. They all laughed. One E-6 took me aside and said that they’d wear them only when they were specifically ordered to do so and not a moment earlier…

[crazyman]

well then i guess someome told em, cuz they are wearin it.

[TacoDelRio]

Funny that this would come up now.
A few weeks ago, I was talking with some guys from 1st SF Group. They all had woodland BDUs on, and I asked when they were getting ACUs. They all laughed. One E-6 took me aside and said that they’d wear them only when they were specifically ordered to do so and not a moment earlier…

Makes sense. I doubt ACU's blend in that well up there in your world of rain in Ft Lewis.

[STA]

Guys! Realy BIG THANX!

[STA]

So, it makes a sense that Army would be forced to change mod BDU to ACU in close future which is stupid :cantbeli:(imho) 'cause we tested one in woodland East. Eur. conditions and if shadowed it worked more or less but in slight light it became a piece of crap (sorry to ACU's adherents but that was an eye-visualized fact p-) ). Hope I'm wrong and they will go with mod BDU - at least some of them in case free of order...
What concerning to NAVY it seems that some changes should come in a form of new woodl./desert NAVPAT, which should be possibly similar to MARPAT. By the way we tried MARPAT Wood in the same conditions. It worked better but I would not say much more better than BDU or DPM...

But for the 2006 - 1/2 2007 the old and fair BDU would stay. Is that right more or less?

[STA]

And by the way, what do you think about possibility of adopting multicam?

[maple.leaf]

And by the way, what do you think about possibility of adopting multicam?

See Post #9.

This next part is pure speculation on my part, but: I suspect that the Woodland variant of NAVPAT might look a lot like the old civilian "Jungle Stalker" pattern - which was MARPAT without the EGA logo and using the colours of US Woodland. The Navy and Marines pulled the license for Jungle Stalker a couple of years ago - and based also on their attempt to block Hyperstealth's Replicam - I suspect it might be becuase Woodland NAVPAT is going to be the same as, or close to, Jungle Stalker.

Jungle Stalker swatch:
http://www.rockywoods.com/camouflage/6499-10.jpg

[Blarney]

Multicam is not slated for U.S. regular forces use, it is used to prototype new equipment in the U.S. Army Future Force Warrior program, however, Special Forces have the option to use it if they want to as they do not need to wear regular forces issue.


and where did you here this (the non issue part....)?

MC is going to be official buddy, just wait a couple years.

Oh and its really funny listening to a lot of the SF guys laugh about ACUs....those things havent been welcomed all that well into the SOF community.

That other digital crap, the SOFPAT or whatever....dont even bother with that stuff....

[GothicSnake]

Here's my question, which I've had from the beggining: Why?

What is the point?

MARPAT

The patterm is effective, aesthetically pleasing, and the uniform's design is very good and comfortable as all hell. Why doesn't congress or somebody step into this process and stop the branches from wasting money on this crap when the US military already has the ideal solution?

I don't get it...not just the uniforms but in the spending and development habits of the military in general...so wasteful and redundant.

[Guy Cramer]

and where did you here this (the non issue part....)?

MC is going to be official buddy, just wait a couple years.


MC is official - as the U.S. Army Future Force Warrior pattern - this does not mean it is slated for issue in the future. It was considered by the Army and lost to the ACU "Universal Camouflage".

Special Forces did use the Track Camouflage (discussed in the article below) in Iraq in limited numbers

Date: November 19, 2002
No: 02-55

New Army camouflage patterns evaluated

NATICK, Mass. -- Variations of "all over brush", "shadow line" and "track" patterns in four combinations of colors, along with the all-purpose "Crye", are in the running for the next generation of Army camouflage clothing.

These patterns for woodland, desert, urban and a combination of desert and urban terrains are undergoing evaluation by the Materials Integration Team at the U.S. Army Soldier Systems Center in Natick, Mass. If selected and approved, up to four new patterns will help conceal soldiers wearing the Army's future Advanced Combat Uniform and the Objective Force Warrior's Scorpion uniform.

Existing designs have been around for years, and changes are in order.

Woodland camouflage has been fielded since 1981, with desert camouflage arriving about a decade later. The Army has never fielded an urban camouflage uniform but is interested in adding that capability.

"Woodland camouflage is still based on the European threat of the Cold War. There are new threats today, and there's always room for improvement," said Anabela Dugas, a textile technologist. "Until we do an evaluation, we don't know if there's a better alternative."

Camouflage allows a soldier to blend into his environment. Better matching of the color and pattern to the background yields better concealment.

"Trying to get one uniform that blends for everything is the toughest part of the job," Dugas said. "It really is background dependent. What gets lost in one background stands out in another."

She said the Army had a goal for its next generation uniform to be one pattern, but it would be difficult to develop because vegetation has a reflectance that's off the scale compared to rocks and sand. Instead, Dugas along with Kellie Zupkofska, also a textile technologist, and Richard Cowan, a chemist, are working on the best compromise across the variables.

"Woodland camouflage is the easiest because you can hide in vegetation," Dugas said. "Desert is complicated because you are out in the open, but urban is really complicated because you're so close."

In all the designs, soldiers can expect to see a common color so that the gear is interchangeable with the uniform.

To generate fresh ideas, the team contracted a designer to draw new patterns on paper using information based on decades of camouflage research at the Soldier Systems Center.

Seven initial designs in color printouts were reduced to three after benchtop testing in the Camouflage Evaluation Facility at Natick.

"It's a quick way to eliminate the least effective patterns before field testing," Zupkofska said.

"All over brush" has swirls of shapes and colors, and strays from the more conventional "shadow lines," which has horizontal lines and "track," which has vertical lines to its elements. "Crye" is the camouflage intended for all environments that's now being modeled by Objective Force Warrior and was included in evaluations.

Each of the three designs was printed on a nylon and cotton blend fabric from an ink jet printer. Enough material was printed to fabricate a helmet cover and Battle Dress Uniform shirt and trousers for the first field evaluation at Fort Benning, Ga., in August.

Urban camouflage evaluation was conducted at the McKenna Military Operations in Urban Terrain (MOUT) site while woodland patterns were evaluated in the adjacent woods. Twelve trained military observers evaluated soldiers posing in the experimental uniforms against different backgrounds at a range of distances and in several positions. The observers then answered a questionnaire rating blending, contrast, shape and pattern.

The best four out of nine woodland and four out of 13 urban uniforms were selected. The same process for the desert uniforms was conducted at several locations at Fort Irwin, Calif., in October. These desert sites were carefully selected and were analogous to locations in the Middle East. Of the 10 choices, four were selected.

"We wanted to look at every possible yet realistic combination of color and pattern, including the current patterns," Dugas said.

After the Product Optimization and Evaluation Team at Natick analyzes the data based on the surveys, Dugas said the next step is to fine-tune the shape and color before examining infrared properties. Night testing with evaluators wearing night vision goggles is scheduled for February at Fort Polk, La., and at Fort Irwin.

The final designs could be selected for recommendations as soon as April 2003.

The Soldier Systems Center is part of the U.S. Army Soldier and Biological Chemical Command (SBCCOM). For more information about SBCCOM or the Center, please visit our website at http://www.sbccom.army.mil.

[Guy Cramer]

According to Natick (U.S. Army Laboratory) camouflage evaluation conclusions. Multicam actually placed third. Multicam at the time of this paper was called Scorpion.

The following paper discussed the Testing and Evaluation for the 13 patterns that were being considered for the future force warrior program, I have placed the conclusions below.

UNIVERSAL CAMOUFLAGE FOR THE FUTURE WARRIOR A. Dugas*, K. J. Zupkofska, A. DiChiara and F. M. Kramer U.S. Army Research, Development and Engineering Command, Natick Soldier Center Natick, MA 01760

…Overall, the best relative performer was the Desert All Over Brush design, followed by Woodland Track Mod, Scorpion Mod, and Urban Track (in ranking order).

...CONCLUSION Pattern "Desert All Over Brush" was identified and recommended as the best performing camouflage design for multiple environments for the Future Force Warrior Program. Desert All Over Brush’s performance demonstrated its effectiveness in a wide range of terrains. Though none of the four down-selected camouflage designs tested performed poorly in any one environment, neither did any perform optimally, due to the fact that they were designed to “blend” universally across all terrains: Woodland, Urban, and Desert.

[Blarney]

Cramer...listen to me....or rather read what Im posting....MC will be used officially by SOF personnel in the very near future, ACU sucks and MC is a much better choice...seeing as how reg army doesnt have the capacity to make such expensive camo for reg troops, they opted for the semi good ACU. SOF is better and loved by the Army, thus they get funding and abilities to get MC....thats all in laymans terms for ya so you get it nice and easy.

[STA]

Why you are so sure about MC? Some intel??? ;)

[TallGuy]

Why you are so sure about MC? Some intel??? ;) Yes, he's a member of Airsoft Intelligence...;)

[Guy Cramer]

Cramer...listen to me....or rather read what Im posting....MC will be used officially by SOF personnel in the very near future, ACU sucks and MC is a much better choice...seeing as how reg army doesnt have the capacity to make such expensive camo for reg troops, they opted for the semi good ACU. SOF is better and loved by the Army, thus they get funding and abilities to get MC....thats all in laymans terms for ya so you get it nice and easy.

You do know that I am under contract to the U.S. military for camouflage development?

[TallGuy]

Guy, just ignore Blarney, he thinks he knows better than everyone else....

[STA]

Guys, may be you could give me some "paved road" on what is the situation with load bearing equipment of Army and Navy SF? We just want to be actual and updated you know p-) Is that the same plate cariers and recon chest harnesses by BH, Eagle and SO Tech, or Safaryland SPEAR ELCS still equipment of choice? What is the situation?

[Baboonass]

The gay is strong with this thread.

[dave81]

Yes, he's a member of Airsoft Intelligence...;)Airsoft doesn't "officially" acknowledge that these guys exist, but I've got a few pics culled from various websites.
Mods delete if in the interest of OPSEC/PERSEC. p-)

8446

[aimforthemedic]

Means, Abu's (as an arab. name) FTW (acr. of FT - Fatigue, W - Wear)??? :lol:
No, man, seriously... We need it for our airsoft team uniform which plays a role of SF advisory team.

no, abu's as in airman battle uniform

[ColonialMarine0431]

Of course if Hillary gets the WH and the libs take over, the next BDU may be......

http://i3.photobucket.com/albums/y53/ColonialMarine/GIFS/crossdressers1.jpg

[moughoun]

Cramer...listen to me....or rather read what Im posting....MC will be used officially by SOF personnel in the very near future, ACU sucks and MC is a much better choice...seeing as how reg army doesnt have the capacity to make such expensive camo for reg troops, they opted for the semi good ACU. SOF is better and loved by the Army, thus they get funding and abilities to get MC....thats all in laymans terms for ya so you get it nice and easy.
I can see why you been banned from so many websites..:roll:, kid's!

[angry cow]

Where the fock does this dude come across questioning "THE GUY"?

Camoflage is such a weird budget item, endless utility, yet we dont even spend the cost of a Raptor on it. Oh well, ACU works well enough, the nice thing about it is that no matter where I am, I can at least find SOMETHING within 100 meters I can hide really well in. In BDUs and tan scrub brush, sometimes you just get focked. They only work if you can pretend to be a bush, ACUs you can pretend to be a rock and those are everywhere, lol.

But I digress, serisously what is the possibility of a single JSOC pattern combat uniform with multiple camoflage schemes? It jsut makes sense, unless you are trying to blend in with regular forces then you just wear your branch combat uniform.

[DIMES]

I have but a few pics of my multicam in use in the field but here are a few from when I first got it.

Some say Multicam is too "light" for dark areas, hugh? take a look at this pic.

http://www.dropshots.com/photos/104896/20060615/184736.jpg

Now a closer pic in a lighter enviroment taken only 12 yards from the first pic about 20 minutes before the one on top. The lighting was the same but surroundings and colors were different.

http://www.dropshots.com/photos/104896/20060615/184740.jpg

I may have posted this one before, but it shows so well how the multicam works when you are in the open.

http://www.dropshots.com/photos/104896/20060422/090453.jpg

Most of the time I do not have a camera, but when I go with family or friends and we set up in different spots, I am told I pretty well vanish, and the farther away they get the better. Conversley while I wear it as I see it, it seems too brown for greens and too green for browns when I am in different enviroments, but that is not what my companions who view it while I am in it from 5 feet on say about it.

[TallGuy]

I have but a few pics of my multicam in use in the field but here are a few from when I first got it.

Some say Multicam is too "light" for dark areas, hugh? take a look at this pic.

http://www.dropshots.com/photos/104896/20060615/184736.jpg
It is too bright for dark green areas e.g. the Pacific Northwest, it's about as bright as tri-color desert camo.

Guy posted this pic a while back:
http://img213.imageshack.us/img213/7402/camohelmets8xd.jpg

[DIMES]

I wish Guy would have put a picture of CADPAT in there along with them. It would have been way too dark. CADPAT would work well in only one of the pics I posted. The first one. Now imagine CADPAT in the other pics. Now look at how well Multicam works in ALL of my pictures. The hat I am wearing in the first two pics is MARPAT and it is way too dark, just look.

BTW the only camo that would work at all in the picture guy posted would be GRASSPAT which would could only be improved buy adding black and digitalizing it. None of them helmet covers work well. Infact I challenge ayone to show me a camo that works well in their front yard.

So why dont you LOOK at the pics I posted. Multicam picksup the color from around it. Look at the picture. Did you read what I said? Let me clarify. It looks too brown in my opinion while I wear it in green, but the pics and witnesses tell me otherwise. When I wear it in browns it looks too green to me, once again the pics and witnesses tell me otherwise.

No camo will work from 3 feet away on grass. LOOK at the pics I posted.

[Kato]

Blarney's posts are nothing but malarkey.

[Guy Cramer]

I just took these photos in my backyard, good thing it's June at this time of the evening, no flash was used:

CADPAT Boonie cap is on the left. As Multicam has about a 28 inch vertical repeat I put the jacket in the second photo just incase you thought the Multicam hat was missing some of the darker portions of the pattern.

They can't sell Multicam here in Vancouver, unless it's someone buying it because of the hype (I bought it for research).

CADPAT was designed for this environment. I'm sure Multicam works well in semi-arid and many temperate environments but don't try to convince me it works well everywhere - it obviously does not, nor will any "universal" color palette.

[Kato]

Guy, did you buy the Multicam shirt from Dave's Surplus? I'm there so often I might as well be an employee.

[Guy Cramer]

Yes, Dave's Surplus and Tactical - My favorite store in Vancouver! I don't go there as often as I want - that's what web sites are for - I need to get some more boots from them soon - the Magnum boots I bought there in January 2005 just gave it up - they lasted longer than I anticipated.

[Kato]

Yeah, I'm in Vancouver so there's no reason for me to be such a Multicam whore, but I am =p

[DIMES]

Cool pics Guy. Now take some pics in the wilds. I was photographed in a dark enviroment in the field not on a lawn. Look at the picture and tell me that it does not work well in the field in dark areas and dark backgrounds. Sorry it will take more than a pic on a LAWN (not a field pic) to make me know otherwise.

Btw that field was just as brown this morning when I was in it and the grass in that 1st pic is now 4.5 feet tall and the same green color. Only Multicam works for both. It only takes one step and cadpat would be too black and green for traverseing that field. The easiest way to spot me is to look for the full color USA flag I wear on my right shoulder.

CADPAT may work where you are at where everything is the same. where I live it goes from dark pines, lighter Ash maple, oak, birch, and various other green brush to light tan wheat fields and golden corn all within the same square mile. If you lived here, Multicam would be the answer.

Now look at the 1st pic I posted and tell yourself Multicam does not work in dark enviroments, and listen to yourself, because Multicam users won't. We are too busy blending in........

[Hollis]

I just took these photos in my backyard, good thing it's June at this time of the evening, no flash was used:

CADPAT Boonie cap is on the left. As Multicam has about a 28 inch vertical repeat I put the jacket in the second photo just incase you thought the Multicam hat was missing some of the darker portions of the pattern.

They can't sell Multicam here in Vancouver, unless it's someone buying it because of the hype (I bought it for research).

CADPAT was designed for this environment. I'm sure Multicam works well in semi-arid and many temperate environments but don't try to convince me it works well everywhere - it obviously does not, nor will any "universal" color palette.

camo will vary from terrain to terrain, As you said CADPAT is very very Vancouver.

[Guy Cramer]

I first saw Multicam when it was called Scorpion, my friend - a former 25 year U.S. Army Green Beret, showed it to me and he was quite impressed with it. I like the way it faded from one color to another, unique in that aspect, but I didn't see to much difference from a faded set of BDU's: I played professional paintball every weekend for 5 years (85-90) - We were called "The Taxi Drivers from Hell" top team in Canada and 3rd best team in the world one year - I was a point man and a sniper and the faded U.S. woodland camo could be seen quite easy in most Pacific North West environments - I wore British DPM which worked very well and was the initial reason I became involved in Camo design - could it be done better.

I wondered why Crye didn't take Multicam digital and asked Caleb Crye when I ran into him last year; he told me they didn't think it was broken so there was no need to fix it! Caleb did not know why Crye Multicam didn't get the Army contract over the Universal Camouflage.

[Zvucni Efekti]

I played professional paintball every weekend for 5 years (85-90)

Having never seen your credentials before, I can now understand how you are so knowledgable about the military in general and camoflage specificaly. King Abdallah II was wise to trust you to equip his nation's armed forces.

[Guy Cramer]

Paintball was just a hobby, my real background: I was the research assistant and grandson of Donald L. Hings, P.Eng, M.B.E., C.M. who invented the Walkie-Talkie "Radio Frequency System Canadian Patent # 414,084" for the Canadian Military 1942, which earned him the prestigious Member of British Empire Award and more recently The Order of Canada (highest honor for a Canadian civilian) for this achievement. http://www.hyperstealth.com/DonHings/Don-Hings-Walkie-Talkie-Development.PDF (7 megs)

In 1990, Don and I authored an academic paper on greenhouse gasses for the head of the United Nations Environmental Program, which was later presented to all U.N. countries. In 1992, I along with Don Hings and Morgan Burke, of U.B.C.'s TRIUMF (Tri-University Meson Facility) Program, researched and presented a major paper on "Atmospheric Ion Detection" to the Geophysics Union of America at the University of Victoria, B.C.

Among Hings 55 patents (23 patents in the field of electronics), included some of the more notable;
Electronic Musical Instrument (Electronic Piano) U.S. Patent #2,492,919
Molded Circuit Boards U.S. Patent #2,703,377
Linear Rolling Motor U.S. Patent #3,555,380 (bullet trains propulsion)
Oil finding device U.S. Patent # 4,458,205.
Hings also invented the technology used for the DEW Line (Distant Early Warning Line) operated by NORAD (North American Aerospace Defense Command) for over 30years.

Last year I corresponded with NASA's Deputy Director (acting director for a few months prior to his retirement) regarding risk issues with the Space Shuttle takeoff and landing. NASA JPL considers me an expert on atmospheric ions and I have provided them at their request a number of significant research papers. I hold the patent on the Passive Negative Ion Generator - no power source or batteries required.

I have also consulted with the General Managers of the National Hockey League on advanced athletic training...

[Zvucni Efekti]

Paintball was just a hobby, my real background: I was the research assistant and grandson of Donald L. Hings, P.Eng, M.B.E., C.M. who invented the Walkie-Talkie "Radio Frequency System Canadian Patent # 414,084" for the Canadian Military 1942, which earned him the prestigious Member of British Empire Award and more recently The Order of Canada (highest honor for a Canadian civilian) for this achievement. http://www.hyperstealth.com/DonHings/Don-Hings-Walkie-Talkie-Development.PDF (7 megs)

In 1990, Don Hings and Guy Cramer authored an academic paper on greenhouse gasses for the head of the United Nations Environmental Program, which was later presented to all U.N. countries. In 1992, Guy Cramer along with Don Hings and Morgan Burke, of U.B.C.'s TRIUMF (Tri-University Meson Facility) Program, researched and presented a major paper on "Atmospheric Ion Detection" to the Geophysics Union of America at the University of Victoria, B.C.

Among Hings 55 patents (23 patents in the field of electronics), included some of the more notable;
Electronic Musical Instrument (Electronic Piano) U.S. Patent #2,492,919
Molded Circuit Boards U.S. Patent #2,703,377
Linear Rolling Motor U.S. Patent #3,555,380 (bullet trains propulsion)
Oil finding device U.S. Patent # 4,458,205.
Hings also invented the technology used for the DEW Line (Distant Early Warning Line) operated by NORAD (North American Aerospace Defense Command) for over 30years.

Last year I corresponded with NASA's Deputy Director (acting director for a few months prior to his retirement) regarding risk issues with the Space Shuttle takeoff and landing. NASA JPL considers me an expert on atmospheric ions and I have provided them at their request a number of significant research papers. I hold the patent on the Passive Negative Ion Generator - no power source or batteries required.

I have also consulted with the General Managers of the National Hockey League on advanced athletic training...

That's all well and good, but what part of that, exactly, qualifies you as an expert in camoflage? The ability to use Photoshop and paintball experiance, excluded.

You're no better than a snakeoil salesman but I admire your ability to actualy make money off of the whole Hyperstealth thing.

[Guy Cramer]

My expertise is in Natural Geometrical Fractals (Mathematical Feedback Loops which produce natural patterns). My design partner is Lt. Col. Timothy R. O'Neill, Ph.D. (U.S. Army, Ret.) and world expert on camouflage: http://www.uniteddynamics.com/dualtex/

Camouflage is actually Rocket Science:

Individual Soldier Camouflage:
What the Sniper’s Eye Tells the Sniper’s Brain

Abstract

Military applications of camouflage principles have traditionally fallen short of their potential, owing in large part to naïve interpretations of natural processes and the scientific basis of camouflage; lack of confidence in poorly-designed results has led to continued development of uniforms and other personal concealment measures that use camouflage as a fashion statement rather than as a tool for reducing personal vulnerability. A major contributor to this waste of resources is the complex nature of concealment processes. Understanding how camouflage works in the visual spectrum depends on tracing the braided contributions of such seemingly unrelated threads as the biophysics of visual processing, the distinction between detecting a target and recognizing it, signal detection theory, biomechanics and perceptual vector analysis, and the integration of camouflage design, tactical doctrine, and training. Current work on these topics for the United States Marine Corps and other foreign and domestic customers underscores the need for a coherent strategy to replace the present combination of chaotic objectives, research and development stovepiping, and lack of coherent vision. We provide an alternative theoretical and practical approach based on careful science and common sense.

Authors:

Timothy R. O’Neill, Ph.D., United States Army (Ret.), defense consultant

Guy Cramer, President/CEO, HyperStealth® Corp.

The paper was presented to the 2005 APA Div 21/19 & HFES Potomac Chapter
Annual Symposium on Applied Experimental Research
George Mason University, Fairfax, VA, March 3-4, 2005 http://www.apa.org/divisions/div21/Meetings/2005Midyear.pdf

[Zvucni Efekti]

My expertise is in Natural Geometrical Fractals (Mathematical Feedback Loops which produce natural patterns).

So do you have a PhD in "Natural Geometrical Fractals", or is it a self-awarded 'expertise'? I apoligise for my cynicism but when somebody uses a phrase that does not turn up a single result in any search engine, I begin to get a little suspicious.

[Guy Cramer]

Sorry I was trying to make it simple - a mathematical fractal is not a natural geometrical fractal - but you can read all about that here: http://classes.yale.edu/fractals/FirstPage.html

[Zvucni Efekti]

Sorry I was trying to make it simple - a mathematical fractal is not a natural geometrical fractal - but you can read all about that here: http://classes.yale.edu/fractals/FirstPage.html
Interesting.

So what qualifies you as an expert in camoflage, again? Made-up phrases and links from Yale not withstanding.

[ICUS]

MC is official - as the U.S. Army Future Force Warrior pattern - this does not mean it is slated for issue in the future. It was considered by the Army and lost to the ACU "Universal Camouflage".

Special Forces did use the Track Camouflage (discussed in the article below) in Iraq in limited numbers



Not sure where you got that information about USSF using trial camouflage, but the track pattern was never fielded in Iraq by any units as far as we know. All the testing was done here in the States, and most of it by Stryker units of 1 and 2 SBCT. There were four patterns that made it to the CCU stage (precursor to ACU): tricolour desert, woodland, Urban Tracks and the Scorpion (aka Multicam). The CCU in tricolour desert was issued to 1 SBCT (2nd ID) and 2 SBCT (25 ID), but none of the other patterns made it down range.

[maple.leaf]

So what qualifies you as an expert in camoflage, again? Made-up phrases and links from Yale not withstanding.

What are you driving at actually??? Considering that you can't sign up at any university for a PHD in Camouflage Design, I suppose nobody can call themselves such according to your logic.

Generally, people are considered "experts" on something becuase they've studied a subject intensely and have also successfully completed some king of practical application of their knowledge.

By that reckoning, Guy has every right to be considered an expert on camouflage design becuase:
a. he's an experienced user of camo
b. he's extensively studied and experimented with existing designs and methods
c. he's developed and experimented with his own methodology for designing patterns for specific environments
d. he was commissioned by the King of Jordan to design the patterns for the entire Jordanian Armed Forces, Public Security Directorate and Customs Service - for both uniforms and vehicles
e. and he's been contracted by civilian companies, other foreign militaries and the US Army to develop successful, unique camouflage patterns on their behalf as well

I guess that makes him pretty well qualified to talk authoritatively about the subject.... What about you?

[maple.leaf]

As for MULTICAM;

yes, if you choose your cover well - it works good in some woodland environments too - but not in all/most. And that is the point, you have to look at where you're operating, analyse the terrain and then decide if it is right for you.

In my next post, I'll put some photos that I have "borrowed" from Comega of the UK airsoft milsim team AWA to illustrate what I mean. His full photo album can be viewed here: http://www.airsoftcommunity.co.uk/gallery/thumbnails.php?album=lastup&cat=10002&page=1

[Black Dog]

There is a guy on EbaY that sells Modified Multicam pants & and hard to get patches and ships it from APO/FPO address. A Soldier? If yes..could it be SF? What unit uses these Ghost Patches?

http://i21.ebayimg.com/01/i/07/30/75/f5_1.JPG
http://i18.ebayimg.com/04/i/07/48/51/ee_1.JPG
http://i11.ebayimg.com/04/i/07/67/81/f3_1.JPG

[maple.leaf]

"Ghost Recon: Advanced Warfighter" that's who - its a computer game.

http://www.ghostrecon.com/uk/ghostrecon3/index.php

[maple.leaf]

AWA's Multicam comparison photos:

[Kato]

As for MULTICAM;

yes, if you choose your cover well -

This is a rule that applies REGARDLESS of what you're wearing. This is camo we're talking about, not a Klingon cloaking device.

[maple.leaf]

This is a rule that applies REGARDLESS of what you're wearing. This is camo we're talking about, not a Klingon cloaking device.

Well of course - but some know-it-all posters on here talk as though they think MULTICAM will make them invisible/invincible. So I thought a reminder was needed.
:bash:

[Baboonass]

What are you driving at actually??? Considering that you can't sign up at any university for a PHD in Camouflage Design, I suppose nobody can call themselves such according to your logic.

Generally, people are considered "experts" on something becuase they've studied a subject intensely and have also successfully completed some king of practical application of their knowledge.

By that reckoning, Guy has every right to be considered an expert on camouflage design becuase:
a. he's an experienced user of camo
b. he's extensively studied and experimented with existing designs and methods
c. he's developed and experimented with his own methodology for designing patterns for specific environments
d. he was commissioned by the King of Jordan to design the patterns for the entire Jordanian Armed Forces, Public Security Directorate and Customs Service - for both uniforms and vehicles
e. and he's been contracted by civilian companies, other foreign militaries and the US Army to develop successful, unique camouflage patterns on their behalf as well

I guess that makes him pretty well qualified to talk authoritatively about the subject.... What about you?


LOL.

Uhhh, nope.



This whole thread and it's "experts" is just pure buffoonery.

You all go back to playing with your toys.


Oh brother.

[Guy Cramer]

Not sure where you got that information about USSF using trial camouflage, but the track pattern was never fielded in Iraq by any units as far as we know. All the testing was done here in the States, and most of it by Stryker units of 1 and 2 SBCT. There were four patterns that made it to the CCU stage (precursor to ACU): tricolour desert, woodland, Urban Tracks and the Scorpion (aka Multicam). The CCU in tricolour desert was issued to 1 SBCT (2nd ID) and 2 SBCT (25 ID), but none of the other patterns made it down range.

See attached

[STA]

And what does it mean? The "track" which took place in combat testing?

[Guy Cramer]

"Track" is the name of the pattern in the photo in my previous post.

[STA]

This whole thread and it's "experts" is just pure buffoonery.

You all go back to playing with your toys.



So, what is your opinion? Share it with us please 'cause saying it just like that gives a sense about at least two things: 1) you know more then all post-makers in this thread; 2) just a mere phrase to show "they are all stupid". I'd like to hope that it's clause one taking place :)

[maple.leaf]

On the contrary, this thread is an:

http://www.idiotmagnet.com/Images/NewBanner.jpg

[DIMES]

When I was 12, that was 20 years ago, I realized camo of that day pretty well sucked! Woodland was way too dark and had black. I wore what was called "brown camo" (a woodland type camo that was all browns with no black) until 1994 when I got my first EG rainpat. I could only locate a winter coat in that camo and it worked well for hunting since most of hunting season is cold. In the summer I would wear a Soviet BDU set that was made for A-stan back in the 80s. It was what we would call "coyote tan" these days and is in my closet retired and well worn. A couple years ago I got a warm weather set of EG rainpat and wore it exclusively until I got a set of ACU last october and then a set of Multicam in March of this year.

I may not be a paintballer, airsofter, or use big words or photoshop and paste and digitize everything. But after 20 years of knowing most camo sucked, and constantly looking for some that does work, and employing camo in methods where I HAD to hide and not be seen in order to make a kill, not just put some paint on it. Makes me some kind of authority on camo.

You can post all the pictures of the wrong way to use camo to show how bad it is all you want. I posted pictures of how camo is supposed to be employed, and what do ya know! The pictures look great. Who knows, maybe camo is like weapons. You can give the worst operator the best weapon, but it far from makes him the best operator. Give me some guns and some ammo for practice and to use, and I will git er done!!!!

Now look at the first picture I posted of Multicam being used, I am useing it properly so I got a picture and results that are what you see in that picture.

Please make some coments on my first picture, I am kinda curious as to what you think about Multicam properly employed.

BTW for what it is worth. Before I bought Multicam I talked to people that developed it, and he told me, after I asked, that it IS being used by certain USA special forces, but he could not tell me. He said IS BEING USED. Not going to be used or in some sort of trials. Sorry, but I cann't even tell you his name...

[TacoDelRio]

It's probably been used a buncha times by SF folks. So have the hunting type "reality" camoflauges. See some ODA members sporting the Mossy Oak camoflauge.


And some people wear NY Yankees baseball caps.

Who the hell cares.

[STA]

So, one more thing just to clarify to myself, if I'm right:
a) Army and Navy SF untill the end 2006 - 1 1/2 2007 will stick with the Mod BDU;
b) there are some testings for a brand new pattern for SF camo which would come up approx. at the second part of 2007 (that what I understood from all estimates that were made in this thread). Patterns based on:
1) navy camo based on MARPAT (or close to Jungle Stalker);
2) based on SOPAT
3) based on stripes of ABU
4) based on MULTICAM pattern

But the question what is that pattern that is main stream for spec ops forces is open yet and for sure there is no information on what exactly will be a SF camo uniform of choice... Am I right?

[Baboonass]

This is why I hate airsofters.

[ColonialMarine0431]

This is why I hate airsofters.

And WTF is with all these posts re: BDUs ?:fork:

[Guy Cramer]

SOPAT http://www.hyperstealth.com/SOPAT-3/index.html is a multinational Special Forces pattern. It was never intended for the U.S. exclusively and is highly unlikely to be officially adopted by the U.S., that is not to say that other countries won't adopt it officially; Italy is the first country we can disclose that the SOPAT will be available for their Special Forces.

[Guy Cramer]

http://www.canada.com/theprovince/news/story.html?id=a955b74f-ce33-442c-b673-7b3c22d3b2c2&k=7338

[Black Dog]

"Ghost Recon: Advanced Warfighter" that's who - its a computer game.

http://www.ghostrecon.com/uk/ghostrecon3/index.php


lol...Gaming isn't my thing...How could I know? :-p

[maple.leaf]

But the question what is that pattern that is main stream for spec ops forces is open yet and for sure there is no information on what exactly will be a SF camo uniform of choice... Am I right?

Yes, you haven't really had a straight answer to your question... When I was stationed at Bragg the mainstream uniform for SF was the standard issue Woodland pattern BDU - so I would assume that the mainstream SF uniform now would be the standard issue ACU.

However, when they go operational they have a lot of freedom of choice with regards to what they wear. I've seen teams wearing the same uniforms as the indigenous forces they're operating with, I've seen teams wearing desert Tiger Stripe, I've seen teams wearing DCU trousers, brown t-shirts and shemaghs, I've seen teams wearing DCUs and base-ball caps...

In short, the teams can apparently decide for themselves what they will wear. So there may well be some teams that have purchased Multicam for operational wear - but that doesn't make it an official uniform for SF. Until I see an announcement from the CG of SOCOM announcing otherwise, its not official.

[maple.leaf]

lol...Gaming isn't my thing...How could I know? :-p

Nor mine - I just happened to know, so I passed on the info. :)

BTW - do you have a link foir that eBay seller?

[Guy Cramer]

I've seen it promoted that Multicam (Scorpion) won two separate military concealment tests - this is true. However, it's never been mentioned that those two tests were both in woodland settings and that there were 6 tests in all and the Scorpion placed 3rd and 4th in two Desert tests and 3rd and 4th in two Urban tests! In these tests there were only 4 patterns being tested. Overall Scorpion placed 3rd.

All the patterns were color tweaked to become multi-environment capable within the final testing mentioned above. So Muticam actually never competed against a typical woodland color scheme in a woodland setting. In the two woodland tests that it won; at Fort Pok it ranked 61 out of 100, at Fort Benning it ranked 57 out of 100 (a score of 100 is considered total blend)

[DIMES]

I've seen it promoted that Multicam (Scorpion) won two separate military concealment tests - this is true. However, it's never been mentioned that those two tests were both in woodland settings and that there were 6 tests in all and the Scorpion placed 3rd and 4th in two Desert tests and 3rd and 4th in two Urban tests! In these tests there were only 4 patterns being tested. Overall Scorpion placed 3rd.

All the patterns were color tweaked to become multi-environment capable within the final testing mentioned above. So Muticam actually never competed against a typical woodland color scheme in a woodland setting. In the two woodland tests that it won; at Fort Pok it ranked 61 out of 100, at Fort Benning it ranked 57 out of 100 (a score of 100 is considered total blend)

Guy

I think 7 times out of 10 your statistics are one third of of the half truth of something computed on a computer that is only 30% correct of the reality of things. All them statistics make me laugh. If I am in an area where my camo works in 60% of the settings within a square mile and only works good in the remaining 40% then It is better than lets say cadpat that will score a 60% in the same setting as Multicam but a dismal 0% where multicam is 40% because the black and green does not even come close to blending in in brown or tan enviroments.

I wish I had a set of cadpat so I could show you just how miserably it would fail in the 40% I am talking about, then show you a pic of multicam in the same setting.

This is 100% of the truth of camo as I know it. A camo that is only 80-95% good in one place and only 50% a few hundred yards away is better than a camo that compares at 97% in the first but 0% in the second. This concept should not be hard to comprehend.

Now put the pic of my first Multicam setting in your computer and figure out for me in a scale of 0-100 where it falls when used in that particular dark setting.

[Guy Cramer]

Your sitting in a shadow in the first picture - all colors become dark in shadows. The RGB of over half your body is below 30 in that photo - which is considered black. This would not be allowed under normal testing

[maple.leaf]

Anyone camo can be "proven" to be "the best" on the basis of a single photograph showing it in an optimum location.

Just look at these attached photos of German Desert Flecktarn taken in woodland - proves that if you pick your spot well, you can "prove" anything.

What counts in the real life Armed Force is how well a pattern performs in various probable locations.

Multicam is pretty good (but it has been massively hyped) and if it works for you, then go away and use it.

[Guy Cramer]

I've seen it promoted that Multicam (Scorpion) won two separate military concealment tests - this is true. However, it's never been mentioned that those two tests were both in woodland settings and that there were 6 tests in all and the Scorpion placed 3rd and 4th in two Desert tests and 3rd and 4th in two Urban tests! In these tests there were only 4 patterns being tested. Overall Scorpion placed 3rd.

All the patterns were color tweaked to become multi-environment capable within the final testing mentioned above. So Muticam actually never competed against a typical woodland color scheme in a woodland setting. In the two woodland tests that it won; at Fort Pok it ranked 61 out of 100, at Fort Benning it ranked 57 out of 100 (a score of 100 is considered total blend)

These statistics come from the U.S. Army Research, Development and Engineering Command, Natick Soldier Center

[angry cow]

I guess those camo results aren't available for public consumption, maybe those of us with AKO accounts might be able to take a look?

Besides being able to hide, force recognition is important as well. Even though they have different color schemes, I like how the pixilization on both the MARPAT and ACUs is similar, as is the overall cut and shape of the uniform, you can tell whether someone is Marine or Army AND that they are America, this is a good thing.

Part of the problem with woodland is it was prolly, along with British DPM and its derivatives, THE most used pattern in the world. I'm sure Guy knows more on the subject than myself.

Just remember there are alot of things that go into consideration in creating a uniform. Having ACUs is so much better than being stuck in the desert with woodland IBAs and JLISTs because the Army was a little slow on fielding. The Marines have a smaller, more agile, force structure that allows them to have both. I think it was a good decision overall.

And full ACU everything also happens to be as intimidating as hell. Uniform, helmet, IBA, pouches, backpack, weapon . . .

[maple.leaf]

Part of the problem with woodland is it was prolly, along with British DPM and its derivatives, THE most used pattern in the world.

True. I've been watching a series on China on the BBC - even the Chinese Border Guards wear a Woodland-pattern BDU now!!!!

[Guy Cramer]

See attachement for the Day Time Camouflage Effectiveness Test Results Phase 4 from the U.S. Army Research, Development and Engineering Command, Natick Soldier Center

The Contractor Developed Mod is the Scorpion (Mulicam) pattern

[Guy Cramer]

Here (attached) are the four patterns which competed

From Left-Right; Desert Brush, Contractor Developed Mod - Scorpion (Multicam), Woodland Track Mod and Urban Track

As you can see the Woodland Track Mod is not very woodland at all, Multicam is the darkest out of the four.

[Guy Cramer]

Overall winner of competition; Desert Brush

[Argo AdAm]

These statistics come from the U.S. Army Research, Development and Engineering Command, Natick Soldier Center
In topic http://www.militaryphotos.net/forums/showthread.php?p=944170 I put direct link to download this Natick's analizes:


Universal Camouflage For The Future Warrior (http://www.dtic.mil/ndia/2004issc/wednesday/dugas.ppt) (15 December 2004) [17MB].

from the left (in two pics below): "Desert Brush", "MultiCam", "Woodland Track Mod (Modification)", "Urban Track"

http://img143.echo.cx/img143/1188/ekspurban3rf.jpg

http://img143.echo.cx/img143/4057/ekspforest2wg.jpg

"Desert Brush"
http://img143.echo.cx/img143/6410/desertbrushinforest7tv.jpg

and my 0.03 $ about why I prefer lighter camos than darker ;)

I think the main reason that new ACU (I still don't like it ;)) and latest experimental patterns which were developed for US Army in Soldier System Center in Natick, seem to be bright or evan too bright, is these patterns are supposed to be universal and work quite well in desert enviroment. If pattern is prepared to blend in bright and arid terrain, there shouldn't be too darker colors in it and despite that it can still work in woodland areas. IMHO brighter colors has a small advantage over dark colors, because bright colors are easier getting dark in a shadow, than these dark are getting bright in a light. Forests are full of shadows and they cause that everything looks darker. Tan colors seem to look like brown, brown like dark brown or black.
And I agree that shadows can be simulated in camouflage pattern not only by the black but darker shades of other colours as well.

That's why these experimental patterns which worked well in tests for US Army were brighter than patterns specified only for woodland area. These test showed that very good was... "Desert Brush".

[Guy Cramer]

The ACU "Universal Camouflage" colors were likely derived from this study.

[Guy Cramer]

Multicam in Woodland environment Below

[Guy Cramer]

Universal Camouflage in Woodland environment below

[Guy Cramer]

British DPM jacket (left) and CADPAT Pants (Right) in Woodland Environment

[maple.leaf]

First off - Argo, thanks for posting that link to a very interesting Powerpoint!!

Some quick observations/comments:

I was really struck by how close the All Over Brush patterns were to the old French/Portuguese brush-stroke camos....
If the Desert Brush was the winner - then why did the Army take a big leap backwards and come out with the grey digital pattern for the ACU?
Since Multicam obviously didn't do so well in these tests - what was specifically wrong with it?
Finally, the ACU-pattern does work better the further away from it you are - but average infantry combat distances have been getting closer and closer since WW1. So what was the Army's rationale?This is starting to become an interesting thread now...

[Guy Cramer]

....
If the Desert Brush was the winner - then why did the Army take a big leap backwards and come out with the grey digital pattern for the ACU?


Sergeant Major of the Army Kenneth O. Preston comments on the ACU Universal Camouflage below

...The camouflage assessment was conducted at the National Training Center, Fort Irwin, California, the Joint Readiness Training Center, Fort Polk, Louisiana and the Yakima Training Center, Fort Lewis, Washington. Varying types of camouflage were tested during these assessments. The assessments proved that the large ‘swatch’ pattern in the BDU and DCU uniforms are tough to conceal in the desert, urban and woodland environments. Testing showed that the pixilated pattern was the most concealable pattern. The movement of large swatches of color is immediately picked up by the eye and is further compounded in the darker colors such as the black in the BDU uniform.

We knew we could field a pixilated camouflage pattern for a particular region of the world during a specific season that would be superior to the BDU or DCU. But we asked the scientists at Natick Laboratories if it was possible to have a universal camouflage pattern for all deployed areas.

So as part of our ongoing development, the scientists at Natick Labs worked on a universal camouflage pattern. Color determination and shade were tested in the lab to find the best possible camouflage using the naked eye and night vision goggles.

Natick Laboratories developed four camouflage patterns that best suited our Soldiers in the environments where they would fight. The pixilated pattern selected performed very well in forested and desert environments. But the uniform performed especially well in urban areas both day and night where we have many Soldiers conducting operations daily. As an Army we have always conducted our major combat operations under the cover of darkness, our motto has always been, ‘we own the night’. The uniform was so effective at night in all environments and difficult to see with night vision goggles, glint tape was permanently added to the uniform.

[Amandil]

This is starting to become an interesting thread now...Especially with these pics of those US experimental patterns. Before today, all I'd seen were fabric swatches or pics of a dude wearing the pattern in a white room.


Special Forces did use the Track Camouflage (discussed in the article below) in Iraq in limited numbers.Not sure where you got that information about USSF using trial camouflage, but the track pattern was never fielded in Iraq by any units as far as we know. All the testing was done here in the States, and most of it by Stryker units of 1 and 2 SBCT. There were four patterns that made it to the CCU stage (precursor to ACU): tricolour desert, woodland, Urban Tracks and the Scorpion (aka Multicam). The CCU in tricolour desert was issued to 1 SBCT (2nd ID) and 2 SBCT (25 ID), but none of the other patterns made it down range.See attachedAre there any pics of "Track" in use in Iraq?

[Guy Cramer]

Since Multicam obviously didn't do so well in these tests - what was specifically wrong with it?


The day time data shows the problem - The compromise with the Multicam - Scorpion color scheme favored the greener woodland versus the tan Desert or grey Urban. We see the opposite compromise with the Desert Brush where the color scheme is designed more for an Arid environment than a woodland. As Urban has fewer dark regions a desert color scheme like the Desert Brush will be more favorable than a woodland scheme if you are compromising environmental colors.

[maple.leaf]

But the uniform performed especially well in urban areas both day and night where we have many Soldiers conducting operations daily. As an Army we have always conducted our major combat operations under the cover of darkness, our motto has always been, ‘we own the night’. The uniform was so effective at night in all environments and difficult to see with night vision goggles, glint tape was permanently added to the uniform.

That's the key phrase right - dig in during the day and rely on your defense in depth to protect you. Then sneek out at night and get up-close-and-personal....

I can see their logic now at least.

[Guy Cramer]

Finally, the ACU-pattern does work better the further away from it you are - but average infantry combat distances have been getting closer and closer since WW1. So what was the Army's rationale?[/LIST]This is starting to become an interesting thread now...

The Slide below coupled with Sergeant Major of the Army Kenneth O. Preston comments shows that the ACU pattern colors are designed specific for Night Combat

[Guy Cramer]

Especially with these pics of those US experimental patterns. Before today, all I'd seen were fabric swatches or pics of a dude wearing the pattern in a white room.Are there any pics of "Track" in use in Iraq?

Not that I am aware of, the photos of this set (attached) we're provided by Dr. Richard McAroy, DVM, (Camo Collector) he posted them as being used by U.S. Special Forces in Iraq and also had Photos of a 3 color desert in the CCU cut. Given the numbers of uniforms required for a Production run conducted on Phases 2, 3, and 4, I do not doubt that some of them found their way unmodified into combat.

It has also been reported that many of these trial uniforms were used as a base for ghillie suits used by U.S. Special Forces.

[ICUS]

Not that I am aware of, the photos of this set (attached) we're provided by Dr. Richard McAroy, DVM, (Camo Collector) he posted them as being used by U.S. Special Forces in Iraq and also had Photos of a 3 color desert in the CCU cut. Given the numbers of uniforms required for a Production run conducted on Phases 2, 3, and 4, I do not doubt that some of them found their way unmodified into combat.

The information about the Tracks uniform being worn by SF in a theatre of operations is sheer speculation at best. There is no evidence to support it, and - respectfully - I think your postulation that some of these ended up in combat simply because they were produced in large numbers (also speculation) has no foundation in logic. I've interviewed countless members of 1st SF Group as well as NCOs and officers from 1 and 2 SBCT, and nobody has indicated to me that any of the trials uniforms were worn in theatre, although many Stryker members indicated they were issued sets for evalutation and testing in the States. That doesn't mean it is impossible the Trials uniforms were worn in-theatre, but it is undocumented and altogether unlikely. Members of the initial Stryker units deployed to Iraq, who were part of the 3rd or 4th phase (I don't remember which) of testing the concept uniforms (Scorpion, Tracks, Woodland, Desert), did NOT wear the test uniforms in OIF. They wore the Desert CCU and also made use of variously modified DCUs, as can be evidenced from the hundreds of those uniforms that have turned up locally here at Fort Lewis when the units rotated back stateside. I have yet to meet anyone attached to 1st Group that was issued a CCU, although it is certainly possible they obtained some from local surplus stores. I have observed many modified SF DCUs that have returned from their various theatres of operations, however, and I believe the DCU is still the universally preferred uniform of USSF operating in arid environments until something better comes along.


It has also been reported that many of these trial uniforms were used as a base for ghillie suits used by U.S. Special Forces.

Now this statistic I can partially confirm because I have spoken with several individuals at Fort Lewis who indicated the same to me. They were members of the 2nd Stryker Brigade Combat Team, however, and not members of Special Forces.

[DIMES]

Your sitting in a shadow in the first picture - all colors become dark in shadows. The RGB of over half your body is below 30 in that photo - which is considered black. This would not be allowed under normal testing

What is RGB?

In the field it is not black. The computer is confused and fills in black. With your own eyes your brain will fill the space in with black if you dont look right at it. That is why black is not realy needed in camo, your brain adds it when you hide properly.

As for the last part you said. That is unreal!! Camo properly used would not be allowed in a fair test. Kinda like giveing a Sniper a Mosin-Nagant M1891 made in 1895 with a bore pitted from the burnt out throat to the muzzle, all because his sniper rifle is too good, "sorry, we can not allow that..." That just does not make sense.

I do not know if you hunt or not. I do. I did not get my MC in time for our crow season, but I have hade crows come to my calling from a mile away. Anyone who has hunted crows knows they see VERY well and see from afar VERY well. I have called in crows with rabbit distress calls from about a mile away. They b-line it to me, I was hiden in a hedgerow with a creek in it. The crow(s), (I did it more than once) fly to my position, circle and leave when they see no animal. When they would start to fly away, I would give the call a few more toots. They put the brakes on and head right back. I can do this about 3 times before they move on for lack of seeing the "rabbit". They never as of yet have given the warning caws the crow hunter dreads. I have never been able to do this while wearing anyother camo. Maybe my calling is too good now, or maybe the crows never saw me. I believe it is the second since they pinpoint sound very well and 20 years of crow hunting has learned me well how these critters work.

My biggest concern about Multicam is it works like a wild animals fur. From far away it may be hard for a "hunter" to identify you as human from more than 100 yards if they do see you. The stuff blends just like a deer or coyote here. Some trigger happy buba may just ruin my day if they shoot towards movement while I am predator hunting in full camo and it gets worse at night. I wear Near IR visible glint tapes for those useing nightvision scopes and made some visible light ones for the poor bubas that flood the night with white light and they work well since the light or IR user sees a very bright reflection. Safety first.

[Guy Cramer]

The information about the Tracks uniform being worn by SF in a theatre of operations is sheer speculation at best. There is no evidence to support it

Note that the Urban Track Jacket and trousers feature DOD tags, but the first trial uniforms were not issued with tags.

I've attached the other 3 color desert CCU set he recieved at the same time with the same DOD tags.

[ICUS]

Note that the Urban Track Jacket and trousers feature DOD tags, but the first trial uniforms were not issued with tags.

I've attached the other 3 color desert CCU set he recieved at the same time with the same DOD tags.

That is quite correct. The tags on CCUs are all the same.

I own all four versions of the CCU concept uniforms, by the way. I had quite a number of them, but most have been traded off to collectors. The tags on the CCUs are simplistic and not what I would consider finalized versions for an issue uniform. None of the patterns were identified individually as "Scorpion," "Tracks," etc, but rather those were names given to them either by the designers or the troops that were issued them for evaluation.

If you have questions or need more information about the CCU or specifics about the uniforms, feel free to ask me. I've put in a lot of research on this subject, have examined dozens of these uniforms, and have worked directly with many of those involved in assessment and evaluations. I've also been studying international camouflage and combat uniforms and working with airborne and special operations soldiers for 25 years now.

[Guy Cramer]

ICUS, I've sent you a private message.

[maple.leaf]

The day time data shows the problem - The compromise with the Multicam - Scorpion color scheme favored the greener woodland versus the tan Desert or grey Urban.

I'm not surprised that Multicam performed well in the woodland tests at Ft. Benning and Ft. Polk - look at that environment in the photos; its hot, dry, brown, spares woodland. It wouldn't have done so well if it had been trialled at Ft. Lewis or Ft. Sherman I think.

I reckon the Army is eventually going to have to have a second "Universal" pattern - one for the more temperate and tropical regions of the world...

[Guy Cramer]

... a second "Universal" pattern...

Isn't that an Oxymoron!

[NG_LtInfSqdLdr]

Whatever.

The Camo Pattern of the ACU is fine with me.

But, why on God's green earth, didn't the Army adopt the cut or pattern of the Crye Precision uniform?

I think the pattern of the fighting trousers is especially insightful and practical. It's terrible if you've got to take a crap, when you are in full battle rattle. The design of the ass zipper is an excellent solution.

Also, the fighting shirt (having underarmor type moisture wicking material for the torso portion of the shirt, and regular 50/50 fabric for the sleeves) is a great idea too. I can't tell you how nice that would have been to wear that shirt underneath the IBA.

In my opinion, you can manufacture the uniform in whatever camo the scientists tell you works best, as long at the function of the uniform works for us infantryMEN on the ground.

Crye Precision designed the best functional uniform I have ever seen, so of course the Army had to use something else.

[fokket]

It amazes me to this day how Germans back in WW2 came with such amazing camouflages without all the technologies today.

[maple.leaf]

Isn't that an Oxymoron!

Universal is an oxymoron - that's why I put it in " ". ;-)

[maple.leaf]

Crye Precision designed the best functional uniform I have ever seen, so of course the Army had to use something else.

yeah - but its too expensive.

[NG_LtInfSqdLdr]

Come on! We live in the land of the $10,000 toilet seat. If the Army wanted us to have that design we would have had that design.

No General was going to profit from it, so we don't wear it. If we we're to abide by the too expensive line of thinking, we wouldn't have MOLLE, NVG's for nearly everyone in a Squad, IBA's W/SAPI, and the list is endless. I am not sure what the reason is, but there is something else besides the cost of the uniform.

[maple.leaf]

Well, I'm not saying its a legitimate reason - after all, they'll think nothing of spending gazillions on new fighter aircraft - its just the reason that the Army would give/gave.

Besides that, the new ACUs are quite bit more than the old BDUs - and many soldiers aren't too happy about having to buy those either...

[NG_LtInfSqdLdr]

I bought my ACU's. The price on the uniform is dropping, you can buy the actual uniform - 1 shirt and pants now for $66.

I don't think we'll ever know why they didn't use the Crye designed uniform cut. Somebody with half a brain will come in and copy the uniform pattern for their military.

The ACU is a good uniform, I simply think the cut of the Crye design is better, because its more functional and insightful.

[maple.leaf]

Somebody with half a brain will come in and copy the uniform pattern for their military.

Unless they've patented the design - I suspect that's exactly what might happen...

[STA]

Crye designed uniform cut.

What's that? How does this look? Is it CCU cut?

[NG_LtInfSqdLdr]

No.

Go look at Cryeprecision.com. Or militarymorons.com.

Search for Crye uniform or Multicam. But the camouflage isn't what we're talking about, we're talking about the design of the uniform.

[STA]

Yeah, I've got it. Thx!

[Gamma762]

A ton of good info in this thread, thanks. Any idea where I might find higher resolution photos of the experimental patterns?

[Guy Cramer]

A ton of good info in this thread, thanks. Any idea where I might find higher resolution photos of the experimental patterns?

I am not aware of any better photos of these experimental patterns on the net than the ones posted on this forum.

[Pete031]

just go with Civvies, oakleys and beards...

[Roy Batty]

just go with Civvies, oakleys and beards...

Dwyer Hill Ski Team anyone????

[BMF_EOD]

Why do you guys care?




seriously?

[Anthony91]

Why do you guys care?




seriously?

You know, if you had to say that, why did you bring back a 2 month old topic?