Power of Scottish MPs 'a threat to UK'

[Geezah]

Growing anger in England over the power that Scottish MPs wield at Westminster could destroy the 1998 devolution settlement, a powerful Commons committee said yesterday.

The report by the Labour-dominated Scottish affairs committee makes grim reading for Gordon Brown by highlighting how a majority of people in the United Kingdom now oppose a Scot becoming prime minister.

The MPs say that the West Lothian Question - the anomaly giving Scottish MPs a say over English laws but English MPs no similar rights where power has been devolved - is a time bomb that urgently needs to be defused. "It is a matter of concern to us that English discontent is becoming apparent," they said.

The MPs said they hoped the matter would be "comprehensively debated and resolved before … it could undermine the whole devolution settlement".

Worries about the constitutional imbalance have been underlined by the likelihood that Mr Brown, the MP for Kirkcaldy and Cowdenbeath, will succeed Tony Blair as prime minister within 18 months.

Mr Brown, acutely aware that some English people will question his right to draw up a Labour manifesto, much of which will not affect his constituents, has been at pains to stress his enthusiasm for all things British - even the England football team.

The MPs cited a recent ICM poll which found that 52 per cent of people in the UK believed it was wrong for a Scot to become prime minister, given that Scotland had its own parliament. The figure rose to 55 per cent among English people as a whole and 59 per cent in the South East.

A YouGov poll for The Daily Telegraph in 2004 found that 67 per cent of people believed Scottish MPs should not be able to vote on matters affecting only England and Wales.

The West Lothian Question was named after Tam Dalyell, the former Labour MP for West Lothian and opponent of devolution, who first raised the matter in the 1970s.

Over the past two years Mr Blair has scraped through close votes on university top-up fees, foundation hospitals and most recently the Education Bill with the help of many of the 41 Labour MPs from north of the border.

Since devolution, the Edinburgh parliament has been given the exclusive power to legislate on domestic policies, including health, education and transport policy. Issues such as foreign affairs, defence and constitutional affairs remain under the control of Westminster.

The committee appeared to accept that a reduction of the power of Scottish MPs was the only way to go, noting four possible solutions: dissolution of the United Kingdom; English devolution; fewer Scottish MPs; only English votes on English laws. It did not express a preference.

Many of Mr Brown's closest allies, including Alistair Darling, the Trade and Industry Secretary, who is tipped to be chancellor under a Brown premiership, and Des Browne, the Defence Secretary, are also Scottish.

Resentment at the powers the Scots exercise over English affairs is compounded, many MPs say, by claims that English taxpayers subsidise people in Scotland because the country is thinly populated, making services more expensive to run.

David Mundell, the shadow Scottish secretary and the only Scottish Tory MP at Westminster, said the fact that the findings were those of a cross-party committee with a Labour majority showed that there was deep concern across the political divide. Angus McNeil, the Scottish National Party MP on the committee, said: "This balanced report drives a horse and coaches through Government claims that the West Lothian Question is not an issue."


Link (http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml?xml=/news/2006/06/20/nscot20.xml&sSheet=/news/2006/06/20/ixuknews.html)

..........................

[Mailman]

The Scots have already, pardon the pun, scotched plans to extend daylight saving time in England over the winter months...so its no surprise they are "feared".

The simple and easy answer is to declare Scotland and Wales seperate and that their MP's cannot vote on laws that affect England.

But since when was anything simple ever done here in England? :)

Mailman

[oldsoak]

They could always create an English assembly - just as they have in Wales or Scotland - but they wont. A bit to much like federalism for some, and as England has a bit more money, there is a fear that England will simply become too powerful.
To be fair to the Scots and Welsh, it used to be the policy of the SNP and Plaid Cymru not to vote on matters pertaining to England only. I dont know if this is still followed.

[Durandal]

What the ƒuck...

I assume the English have no problems with making rules in Scotland...

Not too sure what the big deal is.

Or have I missed the entire thing completely?

[cut]

What the ƒuck...

I assume the English have no problems with making rules in Scotland...

Not too sure what the big deal is.

Or have I missed the entire thing completely?
It's a minor problem, this is a Telegraph article so for Scottish MPs read Labour MPs, because there isn't a single Conservative in the Scottish Parliament.

No the English don't make rules in Scotland, at least in this sense. The problem is that in there are Scottish MPs in London can vote in areas of policy in which Scotland is autonimous, such as some minor aspects of education policy and tax.

[Lazy Lob]

What the ƒuck...

I assume the English have no problems with making rules in Scotland...

Not too sure what the big deal is.

Or have I missed the entire thing completely?

I think about 80%

[a_very_ex_STAB]

But since when was anything simple ever done here in England? :)



You're catching on! :)

[DeltaWhisky58]

It's a minor problem, this is a Telegraph article so for Scottish MPs read Labour MPs, because there isn't a single Conservative in the Scottish Parliament.

No the English don't make rules in Scotland, at least in this sense. The problem is that in there are Scottish MPs in London can vote in areas of policy in which Scotland is autonimous, such as some minor aspects of education policy and tax.

Wrong!

Complete and utter hogwash - check your facts. Of course there are Conservative MSPs in the Scottish Parliament. The Scottish Parliament has proportional representation there despite winning no seats on the "First past the post" rule, the Conservatives have 17 seats at Holyrood (http://www.scottish.parliament.uk/business/research/factsheets/documents/MSPsbyParty.pdf) at present.

Further to this, Westminster is a Parliament for the whole of the UK, whilst the Scottish (which many of us do not want), Welsh and Northern Irish Assemblies are for purely regional matters. If Scottish/Irish/Welsh Regional MPs were to be removed from Westminster it would mean that these regions therefore had no say whatsoever in national matters.

Scottish Parliament (http://www.scottish.parliament.uk/msp/index.htm)

[marktigger]

Then look at Northern Ireland were English,Scottish,Welsh and Irish(a foreign country) Interfere in an assembley elected by the people, have set conditions that turn democracy on its head and then find excuses to shut down the Assembley because they didn't like the result of the election.

In the mean time legislation is passed by 'order in council' effectivley with little or no parlimentry scrutiny or ammendment by Northern Ireland elected representitives

[marktigger]

Wrong!

Complete and utter hogwash - check your facts. Of course there are Conservative MSPs in the Scottish Parliament. The Scottish Parliament has proportional representation there despite winning no seats on the "First past the post" rule, the Conservatives have 17 seats at Holyrood (http://www.scottish.parliament.uk/business/research/factsheets/documents/MSPsbyParty.pdf) at present.

Further to this, Westminster is a Parliament for the whole of the UK, whilst the Scottish (which many of us do not want), Welsh and Northern Irish Assemblies are for purely regional matters. If Scottish/Irish/Welsh Regional MPs were to be removed from Westminster it would mean that these regions therefore had no say whatsoever in national matters.

Scottish Parliament (http://www.scottish.parliament.uk/msp/index.htm)


Northern Irish please DW and 3 of them have done that anyway and as I said in my above post apart from the Grand committee Norhtern Irish MP's have no say anyway due to use of 'order in council'

[Durandal]

Wrong!

Complete and utter hogwash - check your facts. Of course there are Conservative MSPs in the Scottish Parliament. The Scottish Parliament has proportional representation there despite winning no seats on the "First past the post" rule, the Conservatives have 17 seats at Holyrood (http://www.scottish.parliament.uk/business/research/factsheets/documents/MSPsbyParty.pdf) at present.

Further to this, Westminster is a Parliament for the whole of the UK, whilst the Scottish (which many of us do not want), Welsh and Northern Irish Assemblies are for purely regional matters. If Scottish/Irish/Welsh Regional MPs were to be removed from Westminster it would mean that these regions therefore had no say whatsoever in national matters.

Scottish Parliament (http://www.scottish.parliament.uk/msp/index.htm)

That was my take on it...

[DeltaWhisky58]

Wrong!

Complete and utter hogwash - check your facts. Of course there are Conservative MSPs in the Scottish Parliament. The Scottish Parliament has proportional representation there despite winning no seats on the "First past the post" rule, the Conservatives have 17 seats at Holyrood (http://www.scottish.parliament.uk/business/research/factsheets/documents/MSPsbyParty.pdf) at present.

Further to this, Westminster is a Parliament for the whole of the UK, whilst the Scottish (which many of us do not want), Welsh and Northern Irish Assemblies are for purely regional matters. If Scottish/Irish/Welsh Regional MPs were to be removed from Westminster it would mean that these regions therefore had no say whatsoever in national matters.

Scottish Parliament (http://www.scottish.parliament.uk/msp/index.htm)


Northern Irish please DW and 3 of them have done that anyway and as I said in my above post apart from the Grand committee Norhtern Irish MP's have no say anyway due to use of 'order in council'


I described the assembly as "Northern Irish" at first, and only abbreviated to Irish later - quite clear.

For those outside the U.K. - and for the Brits who don't understand (mostly in England ;-) ) - The Scottish/Welsh/northern Irish assemblies only have law making powers over matters wholly concerning the areas covered by the assembly, and in no way overlap with The United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland which is governed by Westminster.

I can't speak for Wales and Northern Ireland, but when the Scottish Parliament (N.B. only Scotland uses the term Parliament) was set up, a large number of Scottish Westminster constituency MPs also stood for the Scottish Parliament (approximately but not exactly the same constituencies - differing boundaries, very confusing), and thus held seats in both houses. I'm not sure if this is even allowed now, but at first many Scottish MSPs held seats in Westminster as well, but most have either given up or lost the Westminster seats.

[oldsoak]

Wrong!

Complete and utter hogwash - check your facts. Of course there are Conservative MSPs in the Scottish Parliament. The Scottish Parliament has proportional representation there despite winning no seats on the "First past the post" rule, the Conservatives have 17 seats at Holyrood (http://www.scottish.parliament.uk/business/research/factsheets/documents/MSPsbyParty.pdf) at present.

Further to this, Westminster is a Parliament for the whole of the UK, whilst the Scottish (which many of us do not want), Welsh and Northern Irish Assemblies are for purely regional matters. If Scottish/Irish/Welsh Regional MPs were to be removed from Westminster it would mean that these regions therefore had no say whatsoever in national matters.

Scottish Parliament (http://www.scottish.parliament.uk/msp/index.htm)


Whats the arguement against Holyrood ? I would have thought that a certain amount of devolution is a good thing. People do need to feel that they have a ccess to a locally elected governing body which is more aware of their needs.
Also in that vein - what of a federal UK ?

[Greek soldier]

Resentment at the powers the Scots exercise over English affairs is compounded, many MPs say, by claims that English taxpayers subsidise people in Scotland because the country is thinly populated, making services more expensive to run.

AFAIK there are about 5,000,000 Scottish people, and 2/3 of the UK rich citizens live in Edinburgh. You want their level of wealth to be decreased??

[DeltaWhisky58]

2/3 of the UK rich citizens live in Edinburgh. You want their level of wealth to be decreased??

Where on earth did you get this from? Try looking much further south to the S E England!

[Greek soldier]

While there was the G8 meeting in Edinburgh, I read it on a Greek newspaper (Eleytherotypia: 50% Commie- 50% Left ). And the paper even made a sarcasm "It is funny though. People protest for global poverty in Edinburgh while there {in Edinburgh} live the 2/3 of the rich UK citizens".

[DeltaWhisky58]

While there was the G8 meeting in Edinburgh, I read it on a Greek newspaper (Eleytherotypia: 50% Commie- 50% Left ). And the paper even made a sarcasm "It is funny though. People protest for global poverty in Edinburgh while there {in Edinburgh} live the 2/3 of the rich UK citizens".

Simply not true,

[Greek soldier]

I asked my sister who had her post-graduate studies in the University of Edinburgh about this and simply didn't believe it.

I cannot debate on that since the last time I've been to Scotland was 1995. But this "2/3 of the rich UK citizens" surprised me.

[Lazy Lob]

Edinburgh's economic output in 2001 was third in the Uk. First came West London then Berkshire. Yuppie gits.

[DeltaWhisky58]

Edinburgh is a major financial centre, however there is no way that the Edinburgh area has anything like the population of wealthy people that reside in the south/south east on England.

[Lazy Lob]

True. This is per capita.

Click for link (http://news.bbc.co.uk/vote2001/hi/english/newsid_1336000/1336076.stm)

[DeltaWhisky58]

Speaking is a Conservative Scot, I am proud to be Scottish, but I am British and feel that there is no need for devolved government. Whilst I appreciate that this is a personal view, the current Labour administration are making a poor job of running Scotland as would be expected considering the awful hash their Westminster masters are also making.

The big problem is that the only viable alternative in Scotland at present would be the Nationalists (God forbid), Liberal Democrat, or one of a number of possible coalition administrations e.g. Lib-Dem/Conservative - there is little likelihood of Conservative ever winning an election outright in Scotland these days. However, bearing in mind proportional respresentation, anything is possible when looking in terms of coalitions.

[Mr Gently Benevolent]

The only real problem with the Scottish Parliament is the poor quality of many MSP’s, lets face it any budding politco with any gumption wants to be in Westminster with the big boys. The chances of a Lib / Con coalition is about nil unless the Libs take a dramatic swing to right or the Conservatives become liberals. Labour will be the predominant party for many years to come in the Scottish Parliament and the only viable alternative the SNP (God bless them) are many years away from a majority.
The Scottish Parliament was not called an assembly due the fact that another all powerful group with direct backing from God himself met in Edinburgh and were also using the term assembly for their meetings.
I find the Telegraphs article very funny but remember this people one of the most powerful men in the Galaxy is also Scottish.

http://www.w-mac.com/ebay/palpatine.jpg

[Daniel San]

All I have to say is : England forever. Scotland a wee bit longer.