U.S. Criticizes Killing of Hamas Leader

[MetalBoy]

WASHINGTON - After initially hesitating, the Bush administration criticized Israel on Monday for killing Sheik Ahmed Yassin, a founder of the militant Palestinian group Hamas. "We are deeply troubled by this morning's incident in Gaza," the White House spokesman said.


The criticism appeared to reflect both concern for the already troubled U.S. peace effort in the Middle East and a judgment that the Bush administration should reassure European and Arab governments that its support for Israel is not limitless.


Administration officials said they had no advance warning of the killing, which has raised fears of possible retaliation against the United States. Hamas directly threatened the United States — something it usually does not do — saying America's backing of Israel made the assassination possible.


In the initial U.S. reaction, Condoleezza Rice (news - web sites), President Bush (news - web sites)'s national security adviser, emphasized that the United States believes Hamas is a terrorist organization. And she stressed on NBC's "Today" show that "Sheik Yassin has himself, personally we believe, been involved in terrorist planning."


A few hours later, the U.S. tone shifted. State Department spokesman Richard Boucher said the attack was "deeply troubling," would increase tensions in the region and could make it harder to pursue peace in the Middle East.


"I think if you ask the Israelis, you'll find that they take these actions with full knowledge of the United States' positions, including our concern about some of these actions, our position on actions that have been taken in the past, but also knowing that we do not approve of actions like this," Boucher said.


The White House, which had urged restraint but had not directly criticized Israel, also hardened its reaction. "We are deeply troubled by this morning's incident in Gaza," spokesman Scott McClellan told The Associated Press after steering clear of criticism in his regular daily briefing earlier.


In response, Israeli Foreign Minister Silvan Shalom, amid a long-planned series of meetings with Vice President **** Cheney (news - web sites), Secretary of State Colin Powell (news - web sites) and Rice, drew a parallel between Israel's struggle against extremists and the Bush administration's war on terrorism.


He said Hamas, which Yassin helped found in 1987, and al-Qaida, which the Bush administration accuses of the Sept. 11, 2001, attacks, share the same ideology.


Shalom said he had offered Cheney intelligence data that Israel had indicating Yassin's direct involvement in suicide bombings and other terror attacks on Israel.


Both U.S. and Israeli officials said, meanwhile, that Israel had not notified Washington in advance that it planned to kill Yassin with a missile after he left a mosque in Gaza.


And even the hardened U.S. position did not approach the European Union (news - web sites) foreign ministers' condemnation of Israel's attack.


Noting that Hamas had killed hundreds of Israelis, the ministers said in a statement from Brussels: "Israel is not, however, entitled to carry out extra-judicial killings."


Rep. Eliot Engel, D-N.Y., defending Israel, said, "Just as the United States is justified in seeking out and targeting al-Qaida leaders such as Osama bin Laden (news - web sites) and Ayman al-Zawahiri, the Israeli government has a responsibility to do what it can to protect its citizens against these deadly terrorists."


But Chuck Pena, director of defense policy studies at the Cato Institute, a private research group, said Hamas' vow of vengeance against the United States means the United States may have taken on a new terrorist enemy.


"The United States cannot afford to make other countries' terrorist threats our terrorist threats," Pena said.


In the past, Hamas has insisted that its fight is against Israel and has refrained from targeting U.S. citizens or interests.


Investigations regarding Hamas in this country have focused mostly on front companies and charities that funnel millions of dollars to the group.

Earlier this year, FBI (news - web sites) Director Robert Mueller told Congress that Hamas was a threat within the United States but had not demonstrated it would act violently.

What's with all this hamming and hawing from the Bush administration? I was afraid they might do this and make themselves look hypocritical. After all Isael just applied the US strategy of targeting terrorists for death. If and when America kills bin Laden we don't expect such condemnation fom our allies so why scorn Israel for killing Yassin, the "bin Laden" of Hamas?

You know something is funny when you have the White House scoprn Israel while a Democrat congressman supports the tarrgeted killing of Yassin.

Also I don't see what the problem of the US making enemies with Hamas, just more reason to go after them.

[MetalBoy]

Anyways didn't Hamas attack the American securtiy agents in Gaza last year? Sure, we don't want to sour our good relations with Hamas :roll: . After all they only want to kill Israelis, or Americans who happen to be in Israel.

[Mr Gently Benevolent]

Bush going all mushy, coffee on the lawn with Yassir is just round the corner. :lol:

[army cadet_ngcsu]

i can truely say that as a hard core republican and who has talked to Bush personally, he's really starting to piss me off.

[wholagun]

i can truely say that as a hard core republican and who has talked to Bush personally, he's really starting to piss me off.

that makes you me and most of the worlds population.

Maybe we should start our own little forum, about the topic?

[Maverick77]

Canada condemed it too.

This ****in country, Full of ****in hippies.

Its going to take a major terror attack in this country that kills hundreds of people for this ****in place to shut up and realize that you have to kill these ****ers before they kill you.

and thats what pisses me off

[Whistler]

People can condemn it all they want as long as they keep it as words and mind their own business.

Bush has to at least look like hes even handed or else people will start whining about how hes a tool of the Jews (many already do).

[George W. Bush]

Exactly. We cannot look like we support the Joooos cuz that will piss off the Euros and Arabs.

[George W. Bush]

i can truely say that as a hard core republican and who has talked to Bush personally, he's really starting to piss me off.

Why ?

[wholagun]

BBC said that not even Bush knew about the plans to kill the guy.

[Maverick77]

They should of killed yasser arafat

[MetalBoy]

I think this is just lip service condemnation. America and Israel both know they're in this fight together, I'm sure they forgive us for pandering to Europe to look even handed. Actions speak a lot louder than words in this case.

[von_Moo142]

Some BS from me first:

Once again, today I was reminded of what a loss to the world it was when Yitzhak Rabin was killed.

Every time I hear that a suicide bomber has killed people who many of us lable as oppressors, or I see pictures of people, who many of us lable as supporting terror, killed in another retaliation I wonder what the situation in Israel and Palestine would be like now if he wasn't dead.

I guess there are a bunch of people here who don't know who he was.

I watched his funeral live on CNN (no BBC news 24 back then), and realised that thousands of people had lost a real chance of getting a better situation.


I have a great deal of sympathy for all the regular people in Israel and Palestine, most of whom undoubtably would just like a nomal life.

I can usually see the point of Israeli actions. I don't like them (but no-one does), but I can see why it's necessary most of the time.

I fail to understand the reason for todays strike. As far as I can see it was either an accident or Israeli internal politics. The former is self explantory I guess. The other reason is my way of suggesting that Ariel Sharon needed to show the extremists in Israel that he was not "going soft" in his policies regarding the settlements.

The reason isn't so important I guess. The consequences could be though. I have yet to hear of or think of a reason why todays events will benifit anyone, least of all Israel, in the long run.

I would like to be wrong about this though...


Back on topic now:

MetalBoy

The USA supports Israel, and thats good. But that doesn't mean you should (or can) support everything Israel does. Don't forget, the USA is also commited to peace in the middle east.

For what its worth, maybe Bush has done the right thing by distancing himself and America from this. Why do I think that?

It won't help the war on terror from a US POV if you are seen to support this action.

The war on terror, as its know, cannot be won by only military means. Its helpfull to have special ops types running around interdicting AQ people, and its very helpfull to have got rid of large amounts of Taliban controlled Afghanistan.

But a major part is about hearts and minds. What has happend today will not win them, it will lose them (if that makes sense).



After all Israel just applied the US strategy of targeting terrorists for death.

I don't know how much background you know about the middle east problem, but your statement above is backwards as far as I can see. I guess I am being patronising here, so sorry about that :-)

Israel, AFAIK, pioneered the use of using air assets (they like F16s and AH64s for this) to take out high ranking terrorist suspects. Its fairly unpopular, due to the other people who are frequenly also killed, and the fact that it seems to some like a death sentance without a trial. It does work though, in that it kills the targets with minimal risk to the Israeli forces (i.e. without putting troops on the ground). From a practical point of view, we can critisize it because it acts as a recruitment tool for groups like Hamas.

Russia have used this way of striking high ranking terrorists/enemies in Chechnya, and have used advanced SS-21 missile as the weapon system. Theres a great article on this somewhere, which I will try and find if anyone's interested.

So when the US got round to using this type of attack in Yemen, it was an old thing. Notably, the US has used it less, and in a more discriminate way, than Israel so there is much less public outcry. IMO, Sharon could learn from this.


I guess you're right in that it is a somewhat hypocritical approach for the Whithouse to distance itself from this. But thats needed in politics, especially here. Just taking a hard line approach won't work, and its good to see someone in power in the US realises that.

There might also be internal politics at work here, since you have those elections coming soon.


You know something is funny when you have the White House scoprn Israel while a Democrat congressman supports the tarrgeted killing of Yassin.

That is odd. Its actually quite funny really ;-)


Bacilluspolymyxa


Bush going all mushy, coffee on the lawn with Yassir is just round the corner.

I would pay good money to see that!

[S'13]

Once again, today I was reminded of what a loss to the world it was when Yitzhak Rabin was killed.

Every time I hear that a suicide bomber has killed people who many of us lable as oppressors, or I see pictures of people, who many of us lable as supporting terror, killed in another retaliation I wonder what the situation in Israel and Palestine would be like now if he wasn't dead.

In my opinion if Rabin had lived we would still be in this situation, Rabin was a great man however I belive he made a mistake in sighning the Oslo accords. Even if he had not been murdered Arafat and the rest of the Palestinians would have still started (sooner or later) this campaign of terror called the "Intifada". I think Rabin would have understood he made a mistake and I belive he would have taken much harder actions then Sharon to stop this terror.


I fail to understand the reason for todays strike. As far as I can see it was either an accident or Israeli internal politics. The former is self explantory I guess. The other reason is my way of suggesting that Ariel Sharon needed to show the extremists in Israel that he was not "going soft" in his policies regarding the settlements.


Well a week ago ten people were murdered in Ashdod port when two Hamas terrorists blew themselves up near tanks filled with hazardous substances, if their plan to destroy the tanks had worked there would have been hundreds of victims.
Also Yassin has planned hundreds of attacks against Israel in which hundreds of Israelis were murdered.
These are the reasons for the airstrike.


Israel, AFAIK, pioneered the use of using air assets (they like F16s and AH64s for this) to take out high ranking terrorist suspects. Its fairly unpopular, due to the other people who are frequenly also killed

Are you saying that a ground operation in which we send troops on the ground to kill or capture the target would reduce the number of civilians killed? I think the contrary is true (however this method is also used).


From a practical point of view, we can critisize it because it acts as a recruitment tool for groups like Hamas.

The fact that Jews live in Israel acts as a recruitment tool for groups like Hamas, what should we do? :roll:

[Midav]

Yassin was responsible for killing many Israeli people. He was the leader of an terrorist organization.

It's ok if we, the US, go aftter Osama but not ok if Israel kills Yassin?

Two of the same kind of trash and one bag was just dumped...

[Midav]

Saruman is dead!

http://emyrs.com:8080/humor/new/yassin.jpg http://www.elvish.org/gwaith/graphics/sarumaninwoods.jpg

It was him all the time :cantbeli:

[IDFM203]

Well its one thing to expect Europe, the Arabs, and even the “arabist” state department to do the usual hypocritical double standards condemnations of Israel, for hell, nothing has changed, and belive me we understand thier "interests" and "loyelties" etc..but it is indeed quite another thing to see bush revert back to his pre 911 hypocrisy (whereas before criticize every Israeli method etc…and then after 911 employ a lot of the exact same things that he criticized before in Israels war on terrorism, which btw is alot more vital for Israels national security as the U.S. war on terrorism) with regards to Israel as he has done now.

I guess it just shows how the U.S. is indeed a great friend but as I have been saying for a while, it has other interests in the region (and those interests are very hostile towards Israel) and Israelis must understand that even with the U.S. it cant ever rely on and people need to start understanding that fact (and adjust to it and even perhaps reconsider some things due to this reality)



After all Isael just applied the US strategy of targeting terrorists for death. If and when America kills bin Laden we don't expect such condemnation fom our allies so why scorn Israel for killing Yassin, the "bin Laden" of Hamas?



As von_Moo142 already mentioned (and the only thing I agree with him on ;) ), it’s the exact opposite and this further illustrates the American hypocrisy that when they criticize Israel all the time before 911 for the way it acts to defend itself from these constant attacks (to where with Israel in per capita ratio’s had a sept 11 type of attack almost monthly) to where after 911 they took a lot of what Israel did and used it themselves.


To von_Moo142

I don’t know where to begin for you somehow managed to weave a lot of the conflict debates into your one post where each point is a whole long debate onto itself (which a lot of it I have already addressed in other posts in a lot of other threads) though on your one point with Rabin well I completely disagree with you and its not mere opinion per say but just look at Barak who followed the exact course as Rabin and he got no where other then a war. Hell Rabin and Baraks time they made the big “dovish” moves and pulled out of every Palestinian town and city (and they had plenty of jobs etc..) and barak had offered to pull out of almost the whole thing etc.. but yet the killings of Israelis and the complete societal incitement and non acceptance of Israel never stopped and as such it would have made no difference if he was still alive.

As for Rabin and what he did, well I could go on (and I have in the past) but that’s for another topic and debate.

Shalom :D

[SeanAshi]

I just got out of the hospital...so I missed all the things going on about Yassin...I'm hoping that President Bush's pro-Israel stance doen't kill his re-election bid, them arabs are really pissed at us now..as for Hamas making threats to USA that wont help them any.

[Mr. Nielsen]

..as for Hamas making threats to USA that wont help them any.

No it is certainly not going to help them starting to attack the US. A point which Yassin seems to have understood in the past. So the question is how smart Rantissi (announced as Yassin's succesor) is.

Hitting the US would surely benefit Sharon, and his attempt to hijack the US war on terror with his own territorial conflict.

[cbreedon]

But a major part is about hearts and minds. What has happend today will not win them, it will lose them (if that makes sense).

I don't think that killing him makes a bit of difference whether you win hearts and minds or not. HAMAS wants to destroy Israel. Period. Whether Saruman is alive or not it won't make a difference.
I don't believe that there will ever be peace with them. That is a sad statement, but I can see no end.
HAMAS was never part of the peace process anyway.

[5jumpchump]

They should of killed yasser arafat

Look like you might get your wish :|

http://news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&u=/ap/20040323/ap_on_re_mi_ea/israel_arafat_2

I don't think this is good at all . They killed Yasin and will definitely have revenge killings . If they kill arafat then things will only get worse . It's going to spiral out of control . Not good time these days .

[Maverick77]

There are acctually only 2 things the Israelies can do.

Political wastes of time aside.

1. Live with the fact you could be killed at any time by some no good bastard who wipes his arse with his hand.

2. Kill them all

[5jumpchump]

ummmm yeah and we can go ahead and kill every Afghani , ever Syrian , every North Korean and so on :bash:

It's not that simple . I don't agree either side is handling the situation well . I stated that I have no sympathy for the Arab countries who attacked Israel the day after they made Israel a state by the UN . Israel had every right to defend it's self . But to take their territory and put the Palestinians through these check points for all these decades isn't the answer . They should have either taken the territory and kicked them out completely and for good . Or they should have accepted a truce and withdrawn back to Israel . This grey area of having it both ways foments the hate between the two . The only reason that I have seen explained
that Israel holds onto the Gaza strip and Golan heights is because of military strategy . The Golan heights offers a great artillery point to rain arty down with good protection . But what the hell , Israel beat all those
countries Armies in six short days . How can Palestine be considered a military threat , their forces are laughable . But with groups like Hams supporting terrorism and the killing of civilians , that’s not the answer either .
I mean Israel at one point gave Arafat 97% of what he wanted in a deal and Arafat threw it back in their face . WTF??? He just blew away a good chance for peace all for saving face and not looking like a push over .
But killing these assholes with missiles in the middle of a street were people are living well that's just as ****ed up . They should just arrest all these assholes , round them up and put them in jail . We did it with Sadam
over and done with . Hell I don't know perhaps your right I mean all this **** is over fairy tails anyway perhaps an all out genocide will calm things down for a few more decades right ? :roll:

[von_Moo142]

S'13 and IDFM203 and cbreedon

Thanks for your comments :-)


S'13


In my opinion if Rabin had lived we would still be in this situation

Of course, no-one can know what would happen, and given the complexity of the situation then it's quite likely that he would have changed nothing.



Even if he had not been murdered Arafat and the rest of the Palestinians would have still started (sooner or later) this campaign of terror called the "Intifada".

I'm sure that there is a core of terrorists who would have not accepted any type of peace. IMO, the groups like Hamas don't care about the Palestinian people, who along with the Israeli people, would benifit from peace.



Well a week ago ten people were murdered in Ashdod port when two Hamas terrorists blew themselves up near tanks filled with hazardous substances, if their plan to destroy the tanks had worked there would have been hundreds of victims.
Also Yassin has planned hundreds of attacks against Israel in which hundreds of Israelis were murdered.
These are the reasons for the airstrike.

I understand that there is a need to strike at Hamas and other terrorist groups. And I do not usually critcise Israeli policy. I just think that this action will cause Israel more harm than good in the long run. LIke I said before though, I would like to be wrong.



Are you saying that a ground operation in which we send troops on the ground to kill or capture the target would reduce the number of civilians killed? I think the contrary is true (however this method is also used).

Sorry, I guess I did seem unclear. I wanted to say that it was better from an Israeli POV because there is less risk to Israeli people. Which is a reasonable attitude that makes sense.

In fact, I agree with you that putting troops on the ground would potentially cause more civillian casulties, because of the need to protect the troops. I think that the method of using air assets is probably the best way of achieving a difficult goal (to kill an important target in a highly populated unfriendy area).



The fact that Jews live in Israel acts as a recruitment tool for groups like Hamas, what should we do?

I don't know. You have to do something, and most of the time I think that Israel gets it right (or as right as it can be in such a situation). In this case I wonder if there wasn't a better target, thats all.


IDFM203


but it is indeed quite another thing to see bush revert back to his pre 911 hypocrisy

Thats politics. His main efforts now will be winning the US elections.

It seems to me that more and more Americans are starting to realise that Bush isn't quite what they had imagined him to be, and is just another politican at the end of the day.



though on your one point with Rabin well I completely disagree with you and its not mere opinion per say but just look at Barak who followed the exact course as Rabin and he got no where other then a war.

Like I said earlier, we really don't know what would have happened if he hadn't been killed. Its interesting to hear your opinion though :-)



Israelis and the complete societal incitement and non acceptance of Israel never stopped

I agree. I wouldn't go as far as to say it was complete, but in many ways it might as well be.

I belive there are plenty of Palestinians (and others) who would be prepared to accept Israel (if it allows them to have a peaceful life), but as long as they support or even just tolerate the terrorists then nothing can be done. And the terrorists don't want peace, thats for sure.

It fustrates me because Hamas (and the rest) causes so many more problems for the Palestinians than Israel does. I'm not sure many people here in the UK realise that though...


cbreedon


I don't think that killing him makes a bit of difference whether you win hearts and minds or not. HAMAS wants to destroy Israel. Period. Whether Saruman is alive or not it won't make a difference.
I don't believe that there will ever be peace with them. That is a sad statement, but I can see no end.
HAMAS was never part of the peace process anyway.

I hear what you're saying, and I agree with most of it.

But there are a whole bunch of people who will just see this as Israel killing an old man who was trying to help the Palestinian people. It's utter BS, I know, but it's still what some people will think. Thats the hearts and mind aspect, IMO.

When the IDF use this type of attack to kill a bomb maker, for example, I can see how the good effects (for Israel) outweigh the backlash. With this guy I just don't know what it will achive that will really help Israel (apart from that it shows thier determination, which is important).

For the USA, if they are seen to publicly support it then it just gives more propaganda to those who would recruit for AQ. OK, it won't make much difference because they will say the US supports Israel anyway. If Bush publicly distances the US from this it will also put less pressure on allies such as Pakistan, where there is a significan amount of anti-American feeling.

At the end of the day its all just politics.[/quote]

[SOG]

great read all woot

[5jumpchump]

Great avitar woot

[5jumpchump]

I don't know if you guys are familiar with FARK.com but this was the best headline ever about the situation putting a light on a ****ty subject , sorry if it offens anyone but i just had too :)

"Israel says all militant leaders Marked for Death, no one is Above the Law. Israelis are Out For Justice, Militant Leaders are Hard to Kill. Arafat still Under Siege, Palestinians Under Siege 2. All of Middle East is On Deadly Ground"

[SeanAshi]

Picture from *******
http://wwwi.*******.com/images/israel_missile_graphic.gif


Sheikh Yassin’s Assassination Crosses All Red Lines
Linda S. Heard, Arab News

CAIRO, 23 March 2004 — Sheikh Ahmed Yassin, spiritual head of the militant Palestinian group Hamas, has fallen victim to “justice” Israeli-style. Early yesterday morning, white-haired, wheelchair-bound leader exited his local mosque after prayers, Israel’s Apache helicopter gun-ships lay in waiting on the direct orders, and under the personal supervision, of Ariel Sharon.
The Arabs always make themselves out to be the good guys doing nothing wrong, while no arab does a damn thing to prevent suicide bombers from killing jews.

[usa320]

The reson bush condemed the attack is sheerly political. If he didnt the Europeans would start slinging **** around again about the Great sattan and how it supports the zionist entity.

In his heart im sure Bush knows that killing yassin was long in comming, i knew it was only a matter of time, and frankly, im glad the jerkoff is toast.

[Mr Gently Benevolent]

TIn his heart im sure Bush knows that killing yassin was long in comming,
Trouble is its no use being pure of heart and foul of mouth.

[hedgehog]

"DEEPLY TROUBLING" ? jeez..... why don't they just they that they were the ones who told Sharon to do it. The way they describe this is like me coming home on a friday afternoon and realizing I have no beer in the fridge.

I mean, either criticise like the rest of the world, say nothing, or say you support it.....deeply troubling...... too funny

[usa320]

Its a catch 22. If they admit they allowed it, they will piss someone off, but if they speak against it, it will piss the other side off.

[5jumpchump]

Perhaps all they meant was the retaliation against Isreal will be "deeply troubling " ?

[Sayeret]

Anyways didn't Hamas attack the American securtiy agents in Gaza last year? Sure, we don't want to sour our good relations with Hamas . After all they only want to kill Israelis, or Americans who happen to be in Israel.

Yeah I believe three Americans were killed as they traveled through Gaza. I'm pretty sure the Israeli police arrested the terrorists responsible for the bombing not too long ago.

Also the US government has been quite hypocritical when it comes to Israel. They carry targetted strikes themselves such as the one in Yemen and the ones in Iraq to kill Saddam and when Israel does it, they give them a hard time. It'd be good if the US stops trying to appease the Saudis and starts supporting others nations fighting terrorism like the Israelis and the Russians. This war on terrorism is a global war and the US needs to start acting like it by supporting other allies fighting terrorists even if it is politically incorrect. I'm pretty sure secretly the US government supported Israeli's action but is saying this because they want to appease the Saudis, who don't like Israel, so they will receive oil.

Also Airborne249 said this:


Canada condemed it too.

This f*** country, Full of f*** hippies.

Its going to take a major terror attack in this country that kills hundreds of people for this f*** place to shut up and realize that you have to kill these f*** before they kill you.

and thats what pisses me off

Europe (besides Spain) and Canada haven't experienced a large scale terrorist attack by Islamic terrorists and seem think that they are safe. The world needs to start fighting the terrorists like its a war and not a police action. Even Spain is only taking police action against terrorists who are responsible for killing more than 190 innocent Spanish civlians. They may arrest and stop the terrorists in their country from carrying out another attack but nothing is going to stop terrorists in Pakistan or the Sudan from coming over to Spain and carrying out another terrorist attack.

It annoys me that a lot of people were against the war in Iraq. Some of these people seem to think that the US is safe from terrorists as long as we guard our borders and have a lot of police but this isn't a solution. Israel which is a small country has probably some of the best protected borders in the world and security guards at every store stores but still have problems with suicide bombers. It would be impossible to even make the borders in the US close to as secure as Israel because the massive length of them.

Another thing Iraq supported terrorists maybe not the Al Qaeda but suicide bombers from Hamas and Islamic Jihad. Also Saddam Hussein hated the US and nothing would stop him from giving WMDs to them. Maybe he didn't have them when we attacked them but he was trying to get them and what would stop him from giving them to terrorists who may attack the US.

[Mr Gently Benevolent]

Also the US government has been quite hypocritical when it comes to Israel. They carry targetted strikes themselves such as the one in Yemen and the ones in Iraq to kill Saddam and when Israel does it, they give them a hard time.
This thought crossed my mind when they were hard on Russia due to its actions on the Chechens.

It'd be good if the US stops trying to appease the SaudisIts more than just oil in this case I feel palms have been crossed with silver.

[SeanAshi]

Yeah I believe three Americans were killed as they traveled through Gaza. I'm pretty sure the Israeli police arrested the terrorists responsible for the bombing not too long agoThe Palestinian Police arrested them and then let them go! are we suprised? hell no.

[Sayeret]

5jumpchump said:

But killing these assholes with missiles in the middle of a street were people are living well that's just as f*** up . They should just arrest all these assholes , round them up and put them in jail . We did it with Sadam over and done with .

Before the war in Iraq started the US dropped four 2,000 lbs. buster-bunkering bombs and fired thirty-six 1,000 lbs. cruise missile into a bunker Saddam Hussein was believed to be in. He wasn't.

I'm pretty sure the US dropped four 2,000 lbs bombs from a B1 bomber onto a restaurant that Saddam Hussein was supposed to be in. He wasn't in the restaurant and the bombs killed more than 30 people.

Some civilians were killed when the Israelis carried out their targetted strikes but the attack was far less messy than the attempts the US made to kill Saddam Hussein. The reason Hamas hates targetted killing so much is because it is destroying their terrorist group.

[5jumpchump]

Got me there bro . I red a report that about 3,400 civis got killed by our bombs . Although unintentional we still killed a lot of people .
But we aren't land locked with Iraq like Israel is with Palestine so I think things need to be treated differently . I've been thinking all day about this stuff and reading all the posts here on this subject . It’s overwhelming at this point . No answer seems to be correct . The evil part of me says give all out war a chance . The other says still hold onto peace- I'm split. One thing that strikes me is that there are no Israeli civilians taking up the fight . No retaliation from the civilians . I would think that after a few years of suicide attacks at least one guy would run amok with an AK and start a revenge killing spree .Never seen it nor heard of it . That says a lot about the people of Israel and their patience and will to hang onto peace . Tough as nails .
But i have a question though , why is Isreal still hanging onto these territories ?

[5jumpchump]

Anydoby ???? :(

[SeanAshi]

But i have a question though , why is Isreal still hanging onto these territories Hebron for one is very important place for jews.

[Sayeret]

5jumpchump


One thing that strikes me is that there are no Israeli civilians taking up the fight . No retaliation from the civilians . I would think that after a few years of suicide attacks at least one guy would run amok with an AK and start a revenge killing spree .Never seen it nor heard of it .

Actually a man named Baruch Goldstein went to a mosque in Hebron in 1994 and openned fire on a crowd of around 800 muslim worshippers with a Galil assault rifle. He killed 29 people and injured around 100. He was overwhelmed by a mob and beaten to death.

Another guy named Ami Popper killed seven Palestinians and wounded ten using an M-16 in 1990. He is currently in prison in Israel.

Even though these Israelis killed Palestinian civilians they are few and are considered criminals by the Israeli government.

[5jumpchump]

Ahhhhh i see , so 2 guy compaired to , ahhh never mind .
Anyhow i found a kick ass page with tons of Maps of Isreal

http://images.google.com/imgres?imgurl=igorr_ru.tripod.com/maps/hebron.jpg&imgrefurl=http://igorr_ru.tripod.com/maps.html&h=650&w=507&sz=105&tbnid=eSrHLVJ075EJ:&tbnh=134&tbnw=105&prev=/images%3Fq%3DHebron%26hl%3Den%26lr%3D%26ie%3DUTF-8%26oe%3DUTF-8%26sa%3DN

[Mr Gently Benevolent]

Was the Hebron area a stronghold of the Kache or DOV.

[Sayeret]

Baruch Goldstein believed that he was stopping a massacre from happening in Hebron. A massacre did occur in 1929 when an Arab mob killed sixty-seven Jewish men, women, and children. IMO no massacre was to occur and Baruch Goldstein had lost it.

[SeanAshi]

Jews have lived in Judea-Samaria (the West Bank) and Gaza Strip continuously for 4000 years since Biblical times and throughout the centuries since then. Jewish sovereignty there spanned 1000 years and those areas were the cradle of Jewish civilization. Many of the most ancient and holy Jewish sites, including the Cave of the Patriarchs (the burial site of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob), are located in these areas. Jewish communities grew in Gaza during the 11th century and other areas, such as Hebron (where Jews lived until they were massacred in 1929), were inhabited by Jews throughout the four hundred years of Ottoman rule and much before. Additional Jewish communities flourished under the British Mandatory administration that replaced the Ottoman Empire in 1918.

The Palestinians often contend that the Jews are foreign colonizers in territory to which they had no previous connection. Indeed, much of the Arab world considers all of Israel - and not just the disputed territories - as a

foreign entity in the region. Such claims disregard the continuous ties of the Jewish people with their age-old homeland and the deep bond of the people of Israel to its land, both in biblical and later periods.

These claims also serve to perpetuate the myth that a Palestinian state existed in the area prior to the establishment of the State of Israel. In fact, no independent Arab or Palestinian state ever existed in the area known as Palestine.

[5jumpchump]

Here's a page i found after a google search , pretty much sums it all up .
This part is where i say Yasar Arafat F'ed up . Kill him next .

Ehud Barak offered Yasir Arafat 100% of the Gaza Strip and 97% of the West Bank, and agreed to dismantle 63 settlements. In addition Barak offered Palestinian sovereignty over the Arab neighborhoods of Jerusalem that would become the capital of the Palestinian state. The Palestinians would have control over their religious places and have religious sovereignty on the Temple Mount. Arafat refused the offer and made no counter proposal. He responded with violence starting the second Palestinian intifada.

Ehud Barak: here Yasar here's everything you could want in a peace deal !
Yasar : nah F you I'm starting a new intifada , even though you kicked are ass twice .

Here's the page http://www.betar.co.uk/facts/disputed.php

There can be peace - after a big ass war -have at it :roll:
Who says Islam is a religion of peace :bash:

[cut]

buddhism is the religion of peace :P

[SeanAshi]

Who says Islam is a religion of peace Muslims do, there are 1 billion muslims in this world, 98% are good people, Christianity has extremist, kkk, aryan nation, they are freaking morons I should know my neighbors are aryan punks, they can barely speak in complete sentences rofl When ever they look into my window they see a big shinny menorah that stairs out at them :P

[army cadet_ngcsu]

Whatever happened to the "you are either for us or against us" bull****. Yassin was a terrorist, nothing more, no actually a killer and Bush wants to condemn Israel for taking him out. So what if the liberal Europeans get upset, they're already pissed off over EVERYTHING else, do you really think that Bush criticizing Israel will help out, we only give Israel billions of dollars in aid every year to help fund their war machine. If I recall, wasn't it the Palestinians who were mostly celebrating on the streets after 9/11. These people do not care about us, we need to stop bull****ting around and stick up for what we know is right as Americans. We need to stand firm with our allies just as when they always stand firm with us. Israel votes with the US on nearly every single issue in the UN (except for when there is a vote to condemn them) and are the only true westernized clear thinking people in that **** hole we call the Mid East. Stand tall Israel, our government may say stupid **** from time to time, but the American people (especially the Southern Baptist Christians) will always support you.

[IDFM203]

S'13 and IDFM203 and cbreedon

Thanks for your comments :-)

Well I must return the compliment in saying thanks to you for your comments as well for I never mind disagreement and hell I enjoy a good debate and you seem well reasoned enough thus far to engage in one as opposed to some of the “kids" that frequent and post here.


IDFM203


but it is indeed quite another thing to see bush revert back to his pre 911 hypocrisy

Thats politics. His main efforts now will be winning the US elections.

It seems to me that more and more Americans are starting to realise that Bush isn't quite what they had imagined him to be, and is just another politican at the end of the day.
Yes he is a politician and unfortunately for Israel he is a typical hypocritical politician when it comes to Israel as are most of Europe, and of course the Arab world. In truth I am not surprised other then the fact that with bush you would think (or for me at least hope) that he should know better based on how he has acted himself.



though on your one point with Rabin well I completely disagree with you and its not mere opinion per say but just look at Barak who followed the exact course as Rabin and he got no where other then a war.

Like I said earlier, we really don't know what would have happened if he hadn't been killed. Its interesting to hear your opinion though :-)

If you read carefully what I wrote before you will see that I already stated my opinion with regards to this.,….like I said, Barak followed almost exactly what rabin did and yet not only did it NOT lead to any peace but it in fact led to war, one which in my opinion was going to happen anyways but his disastrous political pullout of Lebanon and the way it was carried out only sped up the Intifada. ..


Israelis and the complete societal incitement and non acceptance of Israel never stopped

I agree. I wouldn't go as far as to say it was complete, but in many ways it might as well be. true but in my opinion it is reversed where as in fact it is an extremist view and always has been to accept Israel’s exsistnce…so not total but a clear majority…I am sure we disagree on this…oh well.


I belive there are plenty of Palestinians (and others) who would be prepared to accept Israel (if it allows them to have a peaceful life),
I am not sure I agree with this in the way you term it in plenty as if there is a big majority when I think its not and never has been even when Israel pulled out and they had jobs.…..anyways even if so, the percentage of those that don’t are bigger then a mere handful or a small extremist minority as a lot in the west like to (mistakenly) refer to it and I cant see them stopping those peoples ambitions and will to fight for their ultimate goal.
but as long as they support or even just tolerate the terrorists then nothing can be done. And the terrorists don't want peace, thats for sure.

It fustrates me because Hamas (and the rest) causes so many more problems for the Palestinians than Israel does. I'm not sure many people here in the UK realise that though...
amen to you understanding that reality!! I would extend that to the Arab world but that is a whole other topic and debate.



Shalom :D

[SeanAshi]

Israel votes with the US on nearly every single issue in the UN Syria really hates it when we throw our vetoe card at them. :P

[5jumpchump]

I should have surrounded that with a sarcasm tag :cantbeli:
I know about the other extremists groups from one to another , don't want **** to do with them either . But this whole thing is getting out of hand . You don't see the KKK with world wide ties blowing up buses ,hotels,embasies and **** . This is global now , not good . Ah well we all blow up tomorrow from a stray asteroid woot

[AirZone]

Whatever happened to the "you are either for us or against us" bull****. Yassin was a terrorist, nothing more, no actually a killer and Bush wants to condemn Israel for taking him out. So what if the liberal Europeans get upset, they're already pissed off over EVERYTHING else, do you really think that Bush criticizing Israel will help out, we only give Israel billions of dollars in aid every year to help fund their war machine. If I recall, wasn't it the Palestinians who were mostly celebrating on the streets after 9/11. These people do not care about us, we need to stop bull****ting around and stick up for what we know is right as Americans. We need to stand firm with our allies just as when they always stand firm with us. Israel votes with the US on nearly every single issue in the UN (except for when there is a vote to condemn them) and are the only true westernized clear thinking people in that **** hole we call the Mid East. Stand tall Israel, our government may say stupid **** from time to time, but the American people (especially the Southern Baptist Christians) will always support you.

Awwwwww makes me feel all worm and fuzzy inside :lol:

thanks mate... as you know we will always support our american brothers :hug:

HOOAH to United Sates of BIG A woot

[army cadet_ngcsu]

LOL, anytime, but I do truely mean what I said though.