Barbaric acts against GIs have no equivalent

[hist2004]

Barbaric acts against GIs have no equivalent

Jun. 22, 2006

Enough with Abu Ghraib. Enough with the self-loathing hand-wringing over the killers harbored in comfort at Guantanamo Bay. Enough with the still-unproved condemnations of U.S. Marines at Haditha.

Two U.S. Army soldiers, Pfc. Kristian Menchaca of Houston and Pfc. Thomas L. Tucker of Madras, Ore., have been found dead at the hands of the still-potent terrorist insurgency in Iraq.

Not just dead, but tortured, we are told. Their unrecognizable bodies dumped at a roadside that had been wired with bombs. According to an Iraqi military spokesman, the soldiers "were killed in a barbaric way."

The two young soldiers - both had been in Iraq but a few months - had been captured at a checkpoint on June 16 in an attack that killed a third comrade, Spc. David J. Babineau of Springfield, Mass.

If we are to properly understand - and fairly condemn - the revolting moral equivalencies that have sprung up regarding "violence begetting violence" in Iraq, the shocking deaths of Pfcs. Menchaca and Tucker would seem a proper place to start.

It is not the policy of the U.S. military to torture enemy combatants, certainly not to the point that DNA tests become necessary to determine which disfigured corpse is which. It is not the policy of the U.S. military to behead captured enemies. Water-boarding and sleep deprivation strike us as bad and likely unproductive policies. Disfiguring torture and beheading strike us as the acts of barbarians and monsters. There is equivalence in this?

Whatever one's judgment about the legal rights of enemy combatants held at Guantanamo, drawing parallels between isolated American excesses in a cruel war and such joyously celebrated "policies" of terrorists is just beyond the pale.

Two days before the abduction of the two GIs, the "right hand man" of al-Qaida's deceased beheader-in-chief, Abu Musab al-Zarqawi, was killed in a U.S. airstrike. Known as al-Qaida's "religious emir," Mansour al-Mashhadani also played a key role in the terrorists' "media operations," according to USA Today.

Media operations . . .

The sort of "media operations" conducted by the late emir involved promoting the activities of an insurgency umbrella group known as the Mujahideen Shura Council, which includes al-Qaida in Iraq.

That "council" has noted on its Web site that the two U.S. soldiers had been "slaughtered" by the apparent successor to Zarqawi. "With God Almighty's blessing, (Zarqawi successor) Abu Hamza al-Muhajer carried out the verdict of the Islamic court," which called for the soldiers to be murdered.

In the twisted logic of terrorists, in short, the brutal murder of two soldiers is not something merely to be celebrated, but an act that should be spun to the media.

It is an affront to the dignity of Iraqis to absolve such horrific, self-celebrated barbarism by suggesting or even implying that such acts are simply retaliation against the American "Crusader."

The murders of Pfcs. Kristian Menchaca and Thomas Tucker weren't retribution. They weren't "equivalent" to anything.

They are disgusting acts of barbarism.

Link to Article: (http://www.azcentral.com/arizonarepublic/opinions/articles/0622thur1-22.html)

Hist2004

[socom6]

Too bad nobody from the New York Times or the Washington Post have neither the balls or the gumption to write a piece like that.

[Plastic_Yank]

Too bad nobody from the New York Times or the Washington Post have neither the balls or the gumption to write a piece like that.It is, but then they seem set on making themselves utterly superfulous.

[T18B40]

What I can't understand about the military today is this: you are in an area so named the "Triangle of Death", swarming with insurgents. Yet, you put only 9 soldiers at a checkpoint with a QRF at least 15 minutes away. The rest is history as we now know it. What commander made this decision, and is this normal ops for conventional units to put no more soldiers out there at checkpoints than this? I just hope that somebody has learned their lesson, albeit the hard way, that the next time this duty is assigned to their company/platoon, that they re-think how they will approach this scenario, hopefully with better planning and more manpower. Just my thoughts....

[2Sheds_Jackson]

Compare this to the orgy of inquiry that US generals had to endure about Zarqawi's body

"was his body moved?"
"was he shot after he was wounded?"
"were his clothes removed?"
"was he beaten after he was wounded?"
"will an autopsy be performed to determine the real cause of death?"
"was his body treated in accordance with Islamic tradition?"
"did you stage the death scene?"
"was his body arranged or his appearance altered?"

Our own media, with absolutely no evidence, was hell-bent on proving that we had killed a bad guy the wrong way, that we were liars, and had broken the rules. If only they devoted as much time and energy to pointing out that the bad guys are bad guys, and that behavior that they find reprehensible coming from the US is the norm for the other side. But if they did that, they'd accidentally shore up support for the war, and we can't have that, can we?

[foxtrot023]

I wonder were are the moderate arabs condemning the torture and death of those 2 poor soldiers?

[hist2004]

I wonder were are the moderate arabs condemning the torture and death of those 2 poor soldiers?

How about the International Red Cross, Human Rights Watch….the ACLU wants GITMO closed, yet no word about the fate of our soldiers?

Hist2004

[CSAR]

Isn't this pretty "normal" in these 3rd world ****holes? For example Russians got their share of this in A-stan and Tsetsenia, and these guys are torturing each others and civilians for sport in every civil war or other conflict. And it doesn't even have to be in ME or Africa, there was some nasty **** going on in the Balkans too.

[Argyll]

Compare this to the orgy of inquiry that US generals had to endure about Zarqawi's body

"was his body moved?"
Only to pose for pics with my foot on his face
"was he shot after he was wounded?"
I felt threatened by the twitching so I shot him just to be sure
"were his clothes removed?"
Are you calling me a perv?
"was he beaten after he was wounded?"
Fcuk yeah, oh yo mean like with a shoe or something?I swear I never touched him,but one of the other team might have "slapped " him a bit
"will an autopsy be performed to determine the real cause of death?"
Fcuk I hope not, I lost my cylume stick in his asshole
"was his body treated in accordance with Islamic tradition?"
Which one?....
"did you stage the death scene?"
Hell yeah, we had 2 F16's provide real time TV,you can't stage it any better than that!
"was his body arranged or his appearance altered?"
Well he didn't look too bad after we threw him down the steps of the villa

Our own media, with absolutely no evidence, was hell-bent on proving that we had killed a bad guy the wrong way, that we were liars, and had broken the rules. If only they devoted as much time and energy to pointing out that the bad guys are bad guys, and that behavior that they find reprehensible coming from the US is the norm for the other side. But if they did that, they'd accidentally shore up support for the war, and we can't have that, can we?

Would it please the people to hear exactly how the remains were desecrated,or is it best left unsaid?.....do the families really need to have it explained in the entire graphic nature for days on end,on every single network, and in every single newspaper?......they have to come to terms with their loss,having it played over and over again is going to be more distressing for them, they'll have to listen to the way their loved ones were butchered over and over and over.....I honestly wouldn't want my family to be reminded the gruesome facts of my death,and I'm sure none of you would either,it's not going to bring you back, and it's not going to make you feel better either.

[BlackRain]

Compare this to the orgy of inquiry that US generals had to endure about Zarqawi's body

"was his body moved?"
"was he shot after he was wounded?"
"were his clothes removed?"
"was he beaten after he was wounded?"
"will an autopsy be performed to determine the real cause of death?"
"was his body treated in accordance with Islamic tradition?"
"did you stage the death scene?"
"was his body arranged or his appearance altered?"

Our own media, with absolutely no evidence, was hell-bent on proving that we had killed a bad guy the wrong way, that we were liars, and had broken the rules. If only they devoted as much time and energy to pointing out that the bad guys are bad guys, and that behavior that they find reprehensible coming from the US is the norm for the other side. But if they did that, they'd accidentally shore up support for the war, and we can't have that, can we?

True enough.

The US media is utterly silent on the way our troops were dispatched.

Reporting what actually happened does not fit their anti-military/anti-Bush template. You can't print stories that negatively reflect on "one man's freedom fighter" philosophy in Iraq.

US Media Press Guide for Stories

1) Insurgents, Bathists, Terrorists = Victims
2) US Military, Bush Admin = Bad Guys

I honestly wouldn't want my family to be reminded the gruesome facts of my death,and I'm sure none of you would either,it's not going to bring you back, and it's not going to make you feel better either.

I certainly agree that family members should be shielded from further agony. Yet, as American's we have a duty to know what happened and can not understand the enemy by censoring the truth.

[tsuri]

Terrorists torturing people, sad as it is: It´s what they do. That is why they ARE Terrorists in the first place. They kill, they spread fear, they blow things up.

A democratic state, having ratified most human rights conventions torturing/mistreating people is NEWS. That is not supposed to happen.

What does the article want to say?
"Don´t mind our business, report more of the enemies atrocities to keep the nation willing to wage war."

That´s sad. The media is independent. They are not supposed to be unconditonally patriotic. They are supposed to give you a critical viewpoint. Wheter you believe the government propaganda or the independent reporting is completely up to the individual. And that´s what counts.

How about the International Red Cross, Human Rights Watch….the ACLU wants GITMO closed, yet no word about the fate of our soldiers?
Why should these organisations condemn all actions of terrorist organisations? They would be busy condemning 24 hours a day! They condemn actions of GOVERNMENTS. And you won´t find an overrepresentation of the US there.

[BlackRain]

Why should these organisations condemn all actions of terrorist organisations? They would be busy condemning 24 hours a day! They condemn actions of GOVERNMENTS. And you won´t find an overrepresentation of the US there.

That's is why many no longer take these organizations seriously.

They are now solely in business to attack the USA and no where on their websites will you see a single admonishment of the enemy.

That's not fairness that advocacy for the plight of terrorists, insurgents, and militants.

[tsuri]

That's is why many no longer take these organizations seriously.

I never heard that someone would not take them seriously. They hold governments accountable for atrocities and shortcomings. That is what makes them what they are.

What do you want? Should they condemn the actions of terrorist organisations? How should they do it and what purpose would it serve. Do you think these organisations would care about their image? If they did, they would not commit these acts in the first place.

Iran, the Taliban, Saddams´ Regime, Lybia, they all got their fair share. Because they are governments and can be held accountable for the actions of their servants.
A terrorist is an individual who murders in context of a bigger organisation but does he carry a membership card?

Should the red cross write a letter of complaint to Osama bin Laden?

They are now solely in business to attack the USA
That is selective memory. They can only report atrocities that happen and/or of which allegations exist.

If the Bundeswehr commits war crimes and the government would cover them up, I will be grateful to applaud human rights organisations to expose them.
If it´s unpatriotic not to tolerate that our freedom loving states might behave in an evil manner, then it is good to be unpatriotic.

[CPLHUNTER]

The media is just getting more and more retarded over time. They do just as much damage to our cause as the terrorists it seems.

I wish we could go WW2 on their ass, but that wouldn't be playing fair.

Oh I forgot we have an ROE and they have none. Sounds fair to me.

I hate to say it but it's not the 10th century anymore. But apparently some morons would like it to be...

I would like the same done to them.

Let's start torturing them and leaving their bodies booby trapped in the streets...

I bet they would change their tune real quick.

[HOLLiS]

Compare this to the orgy of inquiry that US generals had to endure about Zarqawi's body

"was his body moved?"
"was he shot after he was wounded?"
"were his clothes removed?"
"was he beaten after he was wounded?"
"will an autopsy be performed to determine the real cause of death?"
"was his body treated in accordance with Islamic tradition?"
"did you stage the death scene?"
"was his body arranged or his appearance altered?"

Our own media, with absolutely no evidence, was hell-bent on proving that we had killed a bad guy the wrong way, that we were liars, and had broken the rules. If only they devoted as much time and energy to pointing out that the bad guys are bad guys, and that behavior that they find reprehensible coming from the US is the norm for the other side. But if they did that, they'd accidentally shore up support for the war, and we can't have that, can we?

2 Shed you bring up a very interesting aspect. The media treatment of a dead insurgent and the Deaths of our soldiers. Deffinately demonstrates the Media Bias.

[CPLHUNTER]

That´s sad. The media is independent. They are not supposed to be unconditonally patriotic. They are supposed to give you a critical viewpoint. Wheter you believe the government propaganda or the independent reporting is completely up to the individual. And that´s what counts.



The critical viewpoint is onesided 90% of the time. That's the problem. I just want fair and balanced reporting.

[CPLHUNTER]

Yes good points for sure. Don't want to hurt the nice "insurgent" and definitaly make sure he was comfortable before he passed away into heaven.

I hope they have a mint and fluffed his pillow ;)

It just amazes me how quick the media is to turn a good story into BS.

I wonder how the reporting would be if Clinton was in office?

[Mastermind]

There will be no 'fair and balanced" reporting from the Main stream media in the USa....they are all in a turmoil still over Bush winning the elections...the comment made by Kerry on election night..."I can't believe this moron is beating me." sums it all up rather nicely. the elite media are so sure of the errors the USA is making they have utter contempt for anything USA now days.

However, on the good side, their bias is now so glaring, onLY the most naieve reader/watcher could still be taken in by it. We can see the majority of the public understand this fact now. We, in here certainly get it.

[Mailman]

Have any of the MSM called this an atrocity or is that word reserved solely for unproven acts carried out by the US?

Mailman

[XShipRider]

Compare this to the orgy of inquiry that US generals had to endure about Zarqawi's body

"was his body moved?"
"was he shot after he was wounded?"
"were his clothes removed?"
"was he beaten after he was wounded?"
"will an autopsy be performed to determine the real cause of death?"
"was his body treated in accordance with Islamic tradition?"
"did you stage the death scene?"
"was his body arranged or his appearance altered?"

Our own media, with absolutely no evidence, was hell-bent on proving that we had killed a bad guy the wrong way, that we were liars, and had broken the rules. If only they devoted as much time and energy to pointing out that the bad guys are bad guys, and that behavior that they find reprehensible coming from the US is the norm for the other side. But if they did that, they'd accidentally shore up support for the war, and we can't have that, can we?

Agreed.

The US went to extreme lengths to present Zarqawi's body in the best
possible light, so to speak. Unlike so many of the barbarians who
go out of their way to show what animals they are by hanging
corpses from bridges, videotaping dragging bodies through the
streets and finally -- beheading on video for all the world to see.

The media doesn't question their tactics or methods. To the contrary,
they go to extreme lengths to blame America for any and all such
acts of brutality.

[CPL Trevoga]

I hope you guys know that arabs and chechens were similary brutal with POWs as well. This is not extraordnery by any means. It's their SOP.

[joedirt]

I dont see how this is a big deal that the enemy does this. The Japanese beheaded people like crazy during WW2 including allied prisoners. instead of writing some stupid article complaining about howcome we have to follow such rules and our enemy doesnt maybe it should be looked at as a reason for why they are our enemy.

also in fundimentalist islam beheading is a historical method for execution and it serves a purpose by putting fear into your enemy.

[HOLLiS]

I dont see how this is a big deal that the enemy does this. The Japanese beheaded people like crazy during WW2 including allied prisoners. instead of writing some stupid article complaining about howcome we have to follow such rules and our enemy doesnt maybe it should be looked at as a reason for why they are our enemy.

also in fundimentalist islam beheading is a historical method for execution and it serves a purpose by putting fear into your enemy.

Joe they were tortured horribly before their death.

It was not a execution in the way you are talking about it, It was depth these depraved animals went to inflect pain and suffering on another human being. There are far worse things than death. IN this case decapation would be the Coup de Grace

[XxDualityxX]

I dont like blaming the media but when double stnadards pop up I get pissed. Second when I watched the news the first day the infromation was released they had a longer piece on prozac than they did on these soldiers.

[ed316]

I dont see how this is a big deal that the enemy does this. The Japanese beheaded people like crazy during WW2 including allied prisoners. instead of writing some stupid article complaining about howcome we have to follow such rules and our enemy doesnt maybe it should be looked at as a reason for why they are our enemy.

also in fundimentalist islam beheading is a historical method for execution and it serves a purpose by putting fear into your enemy.

Where is the condemnation from Human rights group? They jump on every little thing the US military does but are silent when the insurgents does it and yet they want the US to treat the insurgents with respect and give them good treatment.

[XxDualityxX]

Everybody is scared to upset the muslims that seems kinda ignorant but its true.

[HOLLiS]

Everybody is scared to upset the muslims that seems kinda ignorant but its true.

It really seems that way. Look at issues like, the Red Cross, Media news coverage, Cartoons, etc. Extreme Muslims have made it clear, "don't piss us off or we will Jihad your butts."

[Fargin]

Where is the condemnation from Human rights group? They jump on every little thing the US military does but are silent when the insurgents does it and yet they want the US to treat the insurgents with respect and give them good treatment.
LOOK AND THOU SHALTH FINDTH!!! (http://hrw.org/english/docs/2006/06/21/iraq13601.htm) :D

Iraq: Insurgents Commit War Crimes
(New York, June 21, 2006) – Yesterday’s recovery of the bodies of two U.S. soldiers in Iraq, reportedly with signs of torture, highlights the serious violations of international humanitarian law (laws of war) committed by insurgent groups in Iraq, Human Rights Watch said today.

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A Face and a Name: Civilian Victims of Insurgent Groups in Iraq
Report, October 15, 2005

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All combatants in Iraq are subject to attack. But captured combatants must be treated humanely. Torture and other cruel treatment, as well as summarily executing a captured combatant, are war crimes.

For more information on violations of the laws of war by insurgent groups in Iraq, see Human Rights Watch’s report, “A Face and a Name: Civilian Victims of Insurgent Groups in Iraq,” at http://www.hrw.org/reports/2005/iraq1005/.

The original artical succesfully dismisses Abu Graib, Guantanamo and Haditha or atleast tells us to forget about these incidents, how cool is that? I think it's really conserning when you start using terrorist actions to legalize own crimes against humanity. I think it's illadvised to use terrorist actions to disarm organisations who try to hold countries such as America accountable for conventions, international and own laws.

[ed316]

LOOK AND THOU SHALTH FINDTH!!! (http://hrw.org/english/docs/2006/06/21/iraq13601.htm) :D



The original artical succesfully dismisses Abu Graib, Guantanamo and Haditha or atleast tells us to forget about these incidents, how cool is that? I think it's really conserning when you start using terrorist actions to legalize own crimes against humanity. I think it's illadvised to use terrorist actions to disarm organisations who try to hold countries such as America accountable for conventions, international and own laws.

Wow. I was wrong then. Need to be more vocal then. Get on the news and denouce this just like some US mistreatment. If the US diliberately/on purpose killed civilians, yes I'm concern. Like I said they need to be more vocal.

[HOLLiS]

LOOK AND THOU SHALTH FINDTH!!! (http://hrw.org/english/docs/2006/06/21/iraq13601.htm) :D



The original artical succesfully dismisses Abu Graib, Guantanamo and Haditha or atleast tells us to forget about these incidents, how cool is that? I think it's really conserning when you start using terrorist actions to legalize own crimes against humanity. I think it's illadvised to use terrorist actions to disarm organisations who try to hold countries such as America accountable for conventions, international and own laws.

Hint those at Abu Graib went to the BRIG,

Gitmo was never proven, that I know of at least it was/is investigated, action would be take if wrong doing was done.

Haditha is under investigation and action will be taken

NOW WHO is saying we legitimize the Coalition missconducts? What is being said these acts of depravity which are much MUCH worse is being ignored or not being covered in any manner of fairness compared to Coalitions wrong doings.

Even your post seems to be more concerned with Coalition miss conducts than the depraved manner in which these two soldier were tortured and then butchered.

AGAIN, Coalition Misconduct is BEAING delt with, Those convected because of Abu Graib have seen something the terrorist who butched those Soldiers will not see, a trial and punishment for cimes commited that you seem to have ignored.

[tsuri]

Wow. I was wrong then. Need to be more vocal then. Get on the news and denouce this just like some US mistreatment. If the US diliberately/on purpose killed civilians, yes I'm concern. Like I said they need to be more vocal.

They are probably as vocal. But the Media is not interested.
Do you think any station will sell screentime to tell anyone that? It´s not newsworthy. I can already imagine the Newsflash: Terrorists ignore human rights, kill innocents! ;)

I find it interesting that they are actually condemning it, I would not have expected it as I would call it in vain.

[ed316]

They are probably as vocal. But the Media is not interested.
Do you think any station will sell screentime to tell anyone that? It´s not newsworthy. I can already imagine the Newsflash: Terrorists ignore human rights, kill innocents! ;)

I find it interesting that they are actually condemning it, I would not have expected it as I would call it in vain.

They get free air time to condemn US actions all the time. it won't do anything about the insurgents but it's the principle.

[joedirt]

I read the media and they never support the horrible things that are done by the insurgents. It seems like you want some kind of extreme outrage but what will that do the insurgents are going to keep doing what there going to do.

[Fargin]

Hint those at Abu Graib went to the BRIG,

Gitmo was never proven, that I know of at least it was/is investigated, action would be take if wrong doing was done.

Haditha is under investigation and action will be taken

NOW WHO is saying we legitimize the Coalition missconducts? What is being said these acts of depravity which are much MUCH worse is being ignored or not being covered in any manner of fairness compared to Coalitions wrong doings.

Even your post seems to be more concerned with Coalition miss conducts than the depraved manner in which these two soldier were tortured and then butchered.

AGAIN, Coalition Misconduct is BEAING delt with, Those convected because of Abu Graib have seen something the terrorist who butched those Soldiers will not see, a trial and punishment for cimes commited that you seem to have ignored.
It may be I'm a bit more conserned about what's being done in my name and in freedom's, than what's being done in the name of some fanatical religious fundamentalists who are using terror tactics to try to disarm a overwhelming enemy. It's logical that terror cells will violate any kind of human rights to enforce a medieval sytem that destroys individual freedom and choice. That's basically their foundation. But I'm not such a person, with such views. I hold America higher than those men in ski-masks, atleast I used to do. If you ask me who's the bigger threat, today I'd say: It's tied together. Not all black and white.

Abu Graib has been dealt with, but in my oppinion only superficially and I don't think the scource for the crimes has been removed or investigated.

Gutanamo has at best dismissed American and International laws. The article says enough with the Killers in Gitmo. There are no convicted killers in Gitmo. After three years, no convictions to speak of, only detainees. That's just wrong from a judicial standpoint.

Haditha is under investigation, but it's clearly way to early to say: "Enough with Haditha."

[ed316]

I read the media and they never support the horrible things that are done by the insurgents. It seems like you want some kind of extreme outrage but what will that do the insurgents are going to keep doing what there going to do.

Not outrage but BALANCE reporting. If they are going to have Human rights people on for alledge US abuses then they should have them on for Insurgent abuse as well.

[HOLLiS]

It may be I'm a bit more conserned about what's being done in my name and in freedom's, than what's being done in the name of some fanatical religious fundamentalists who are using terror tactics to try to disarm a overwhelming enemy.

That is a reasonable assestment but not to the obssessive point some contuinue to drone on and on for what appears to be out of partisan political reasons. But your comment in regards to Haditha, I believe, underlines your bias. It is not over yet. Nor should it be until the facts are clearing known, and acted upon to insure justice.

I disregarded your comments on Gitmo, You are completely are at a loss there.

[Fargin]

That is a reasonable assestment but not to the obssessive point some contuinue to drone on and on for what appears to be out of partisan political reasons. But your comment in regards to Haditha, I believe, underlines your bias. It is not over yet. Nor should it be until the facts are clearing known, and acted upon to insure justice.

I disregarded your comments on Gitmo, You are completely are at a loss there.
Who are free of partisan politics and bias? You? Me?

My comments regarding Haditha, rest upon the quick dismissal based on US Marines would never do such a thing and the original article's ditto dismissal in the light on this recent incident. I believe in the new investigation, which has been initiated by the 'inaccuricies' of the original repport based on the implied Marines. If there's a cover-up, something must have been covered up.

I don't bevlieve for a second young US Marines are a higher more purer kind of human beings than anyone else. And everyone given the right or wrong set of circumstances can perform haneous acts against human kind. They are fighting against cowardly enemies, hiding behind or aided by the civilian population. It doesn't take long to see an possible threat as an actual threat. Stretched rescources, poor public support and frustrating conditions will take it's toll on everyone. We've seen it before and we'll see it again. Judgment will fail and mistakes will occure. I hope the investigation will reveal what occured and how much judgment remained.

I hope Haditha was a good shooting, but I wont be surprised if America's finest erred. It can happen and if so, should not be easily dismissed.

It's easy to predict Gitmo will be shut down because it's a disaster for everything related to freedom. I'm not at loss and I'm not alone.

[HOLLiS]

Who are free of partisan politics and bias? You? Me?



Could be, I really dislike partisan politics. Many times I really don't seem much of a difference between R's and D's or even some of the 3rd party people.

Don't know about Gitmo, I think the US holds on to that ground more out of "Rub Castro nose in it" than anyother reason. So far, the Government seem to have the necessary legal backing for maintaining those incarcerated in Gitmo, than it being illegal to do so.


As far as the Marines, people are people, when the investigation is completed, more can be said. If they murdered those people, then they should be punished, if not they should be freed and carryon.

[Fargin]

What happened to the GIs was barbaric and inhuman, but I think to disgusting to use it to dismiss questions regarding Iraq, Abu Graib, Gitmo and Haditha. That's all.

I can't deny I have news scource preferences like everyone else. You go for the ones that confirmes your prefered prejudices. That's what the majority of readers and viewers do. I sure am biased as most are, but on second thought to accuse me of being a political partisan is too strong. I speak for noone, but myself.

I don't want to second guess you, but I understand we're comming from two different cultures, eras, sets of values, good and bad. But I tell you what, if it wasn't for my family, I'd still love to live in America.

[HOLLiS]

What happened to the GIs was barbaric and inhuman, but I think to disgusting to use it to dismiss questions regarding Iraq, Abu Graib, Gitmo and Haditha. That's all.



The issue in this thread was that the news show a unfair in coverage. On one hand being very vocal and with continuous coverage for one, and vertually quite on the other.

I don't think any one has said the first event is excusable.

Generally pro-terror appologist are always saying how the terrorist had reasons to murder, torture and be deprived.

[Mastermind]

Extreme outrage? How about the 9/11 disaster...already forgotten and now is an icon of "blame it on America". How about the innocent kids and teachers of Beslan? Already subverted by the media to show how inept and deserving of murder Russia is over Chenya. I ask what "extreme outrage" will it take to wake up these mental midgets we have running the media in the "Civilized" nations. Liberalism is the enemy...not bomb vest clad insurgents, not Islamio-nazis. If you know a liberal...work on the idiot.

In the shadow of the latest "extreme outrage", I don't think even a mushroom cloud over a major civilized city will last...the liberals will turn that around to show how deserving the civlized nations have become of the Islmao-nut wrath.

[haze99]

Astute post mastermind!
I know this! I am DAMNED glad most of you were not around during the 2nd World War! Because, if you thought the war in Afghanistan and Iraq is bad now! Then you would have had a heart attack over what the US GI's had to do in the Pacific and European Campaign's!
Based upon what most people seem to have posted thus far, one of three results would have happend, had the USA,UK, NZ & AusA not gone to war then.
1. Your grandparents would have been killed, so you would have never been born!
2. You would either now be speaking German or Japanese.
3. You would now be under a 3rd Reich or Imperial Japan that would not allow you to be on the Internet to voice your off-the-wall notions!

[Durandal]

Let me step in with a little rationale here...
Barbaric acts against GIs have no equivalent

Actually, there has been plenty of equivalents. The fact that the title claims that somehow there is not shows the rather poor education OR vain attempt to write a piece it incite illogical anger (anger about the act is fine but to make the event something unusual is propaganda). A) There have been THOUSANDS of beheadings across the world in the past year. What's worse is that rather than soldiers, most were civilians. B) History has shown us that this barbarism isn't just special for these two guys. Its be repeated (sometimes worse) during almost every single military campaign we have seen since the dawn of time.

Enough with the self-loathing hand-wringing over the killers harbored in comfort at Guantanamo Bay.

Hand-wringing? Over the ABORTION in Guantanamo? Are you ƒucking serious? How many INNOCENT men have w released after years of captivity and torture? Throw away the key in regards tot he killers, but what about the innocent? You know, those lucky guys that got rounded up by a Paki military force that can barely read? As American's we should be disgusted with this.

The murders of Pfcs. Kristian Menchaca and Thomas Tucker weren't retribution. They weren't "equivalent" to anything.

They are disgusting acts of barbarism.

And again we get back to the moral equivalents. Is the torture and death of two SOLDIERS put into harms way because of their profession less or more "bad" than the deaths of random women and children around Iraq as a result of collateral damage. While the deaths were not a result of DELIBERATE targeting by the armed forces dropping the munitions, or shooting the round, or firing the rifle, they are a KNOWN result of war. Thus one could argue that by understanding the result of the actions is in fact deliberate.

Two soldiers or thousands of women and children? You tell me...

This is nothing but a "Rah Rah" article written to incite anger. The opinion writer is trying to make a profit from their deaths.

Moral equivalency my ass...

[Mastermind]

Durandal, I like your posts...you always come up with very practical, knowledgable comments. But, the one above sounds so "Relativistic" and emotional it does not even sound like you. has someone gotten your pass word and is posting pretending to be you? MM

[Durandal]

Durandal, I like your posts...you always come up with very practical, knowledgable comments. But, the one above sounds so "Relativistic" and emotional it does not even sound like you. has someone gotten your pass word and is posting pretending to be you? MM

Yeah, I know, I am pissed...it didn't come out right.

I am pissed about what happened to these two soldiers. It was barbaric.

At the same time it pisses me off that someone focuses on this as some sort of call to a banner when far worse things have happened. It amazes me at the ignorance in the author.

Was what happened to these two dudes tragic and horrific? Yep. Was it unforeseen or somehow MORE horrible than MILLIONS of similar events over the past millennium? No.

THe idiocy of this article amazes me...you want to flock to a banner and fight for a cause...then 9/11 is it...not a common, tragic, event involving two soldiers.

I just wished people got more fired up over our troops having to purchase some of their gear on their own (and their family's) dime...

The tragic part of this is that they WERE there for this to have happened...

I just not in the mood for the "rah rah" stuff. This country is going down the tubes quite frankly the only thing I know to do at this time is get my own little square of it ready for when the $hit hits the fan...

[caridon]

Short version of this:

The writer is a sich bastard that tries to use the deaths of 2 soldiers to push his political agenda.

It is totaly disrespectfull against the soldiers and their families.

But it is nothing new. This happens every time. and by all sides of every conflict.

I will just ignore him as being an inconsiderate a*****e.

/C

[Mastermind]

@Durandal...I understand...MM

[Plastic_Yank]

Actually, there has been plenty of equivalents.I think you're barking up the wrong tree there. The writer, at least to my understanding, is saying that there's no equivelent on our side.

Hand-wringing? Over the ABORTION in Guantanamo?There female prisoners there?

And again we get back to the moral equivalents. Is the torture and death of two SOLDIERS put into harms way because of their profession less or more "bad" than the deaths of random women and children around Iraq as a result of collateral damage.Difficult to say, given the collect hand-wringing that emerges in either case.

Two soldiers or thousands of women and children? You tell me...Ours or theirs?

[Durandal]

Ours or theirs?

Does it matter?

[California Joe]

This latest "outrage" is despicable to us and our western sensibilities. It incites anger and focuses our efforts on bringing those responsible to "justice", our justice. Our perception is our reality. Not the terrorists, their reality is they mind f*cked us for a week or two with this act while they planned their next move. We reacted predictably. As Argyll keeps offering, this is what they do, it's SOP. Durandal is correct, dead is dead. The manner in which they were killed is largley irrelevent in this type of war. There is no "Remember the Alamo" type charge to avenge them here. It's not possible. This is more of a chess game than a rugby match where you hammer them till they submit.

[Mastermind]

I don't think you can hammer these guys until they submit, Joe. Our own sensibilities will be hammered by our own actions until we give up. We simply are not prepared to fight barbarains...we have become too "sensitive" and "nuanced" to fight them on their terms. So it was with Vietnam...so it was with Somalia and so it will be with these guys (how many Americans are squaking, "It's time to pull out!"? already).

The real trouble is, as a people, we don't understand this fact and the bad guys do. MM

[Sayeret]

I dont see how this is a big deal that the enemy does this. The Japanese beheaded people like crazy during WW2 including allied prisoners. instead of writing some stupid article complaining about howcome we have to follow such rules and our enemy doesnt maybe it should be looked at as a reason for why they are our enemy.

People are making a big deal out of it because it is a pretty gruesome act. They couldn't even recognize these soldiers because they had been so badly tortured and mutilated. Also people are talking about this because so many media organizations such of the New York Times cover give this story such minimal coverage and give several days worth to an Iraqi who was executed by Coalition soldiers.

also in fundimentalist islam beheading is a historical method for execution and it serves a purpose by putting fear into your enemy.

Yes but so were western armies of that time period. That was considered more accepted. If your going to say that it's ok for Islamic terrorists to behead because it's what they've always been doing then it should be acceptable for the Coalition to perform the historic anti-insurgent tactics of sending civilians to internment camps and carrying out massacres of civilian populations in retribution for insurgent attacks.

[Durandal]

I don't think you can hammer these guys until they submit, Joe. Our own sensibilities will be hammered by our own actions until we give up. We simply are not prepared to fight barbarains...we have become too "sensitive" and "nuanced" to fight them on their terms. So it was with Vietnam...so it was with Somalia and so it will be with these guys (how many Americans are squaking, "It's time to pull out!"? already).

The real trouble is, as a people, we don't understand this fact and the bad guys do. MM

True to some degree...

Look at how we dealt with the Moros insurrection in the Philippines around 1902.

You either do it right or you do not do it.

I still argue that we should hunt down and butcher every family member of the 9/11 terrorists and bathe them in pigs blood. I know it sounds extreme coming from me, but that is the ONLY way to fight these people. Do it right or not at all.

[Fargin]

I think it is dangerous to compromize the freedom and civil rights earned through generations of hard work and spilt blood, because we're tested by a small, but brutal enemy. We have to protect our great values from the barbaric, primitive and fanatic. There's no reason to fight them, if we become them.

[HOLLiS]

I think it is dangerous to compromize the freedom and civil rights earned through generations of hard work and spilt blood, because we're tested by a small, but brutal enemy. We have to protect our great values from the barbaric, primitive and fanatic. There's no reason to fight them, if we become them.

I agree with you. I believe we need to be firm in our commitment and resolve. We night to fight harder and more tanaciously.

But our worse enemies are not the terrorists, it is those who would cause us to loose resolve, to lack commitment, to put in a only half heart attempt at justice in that we also fail all those who fought and secured our liberities and freedoms before us. In many ways we become even worse than these deprived barbarians........

[Fargin]

I have to say it's absurd to demonize your political opponents in a democratic country to such an extend, where you actually consider them worse than suscidal plane hijackers.

[HOLLiS]

I have to say it's absurd to demonize your political opponents in a democratic country to such an extend, where you actually consider them worse than suscidal plane hijackers.

Depends on what you call political opponents. Those that would destroy this country, don't belong here, regardless of political affiliation.

There is room to argue, to present different political approaches, to advocate one point over another, but when it enables and supports our enemies, especially during war, that is reprehenseable.

"it is those who would cause us to loose resolve, to lack commitment, to put in a only half heart attempt at justice"

[Mastermind]

The above posts are all excellent points and bring up what may be another topic altogether. We are discussing the potential of civilization devolving into barbaraism because it tries to defend itself against barbarism.

It is beginning to appear, in this current conflict, that there will be no real end to it. In fact, I contend there has never been an end to it...we are all captives of the never ending conflict of humans to rise above the realm of the jungle we evolved from.

That brings up the question: What happens next? What if this thing really does escalate and goes on with no conceivable ending in sight? The barbarains already have been shown the way to defeat us...all they have to do is not quit...we will eventually retreat and submit. If they continue the game and expertly balance their murders with time and temperance...never quitting and never relly doing enough to bring us to the point of utterly destroying them, but always escalating their barbarity they will eventually get what they want (what ever that is).

Am I too far off on this? MM

[foxtrot023]

The above posts are all excellent points and bring up what may be another topic altogether. We are discussing the potential of civilization devolving into barbaraism because it tries to defend itself against barbarism.

It is beginning to appear, in this current conflict, that there will be no real end to it. In fact, I contend there has never been an end to it...we are all captives of the never ending conflict of humans to rise above the realm of the jungle we evolved from.

That brings up the question: What happens next? What if this thing really does escalate and goes on with no conceivable ending in sight? The barbarains already have been shown the way to defeat us...all they have to do is not quit...we will eventually retreat and submit. If they continue the game and expertly balance their murders with time and temperance...never quitting and never relly doing enough to bring us to the point of utterly destroying them, but always escalating their barbarity they will eventually get what they want (what ever that is).

Am I too far off on this? MM

Not at all. Societies can create a ¨barbaric¨ figure to fight fire with fire. In Republican Rome they created a Dictator for 6 months, that could do as he please and not be prosecuted.

[budgie]

If GIs were to, say, rape an Iraqi woman and then kill her and her family would you guys here consider that a rough equivalent in barbarity to what the insurgents get up to?

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20060630/ap_on_re_mi_ea/iraq_soldiers_investigated

War is hell. Best to make sure it's worth it before starting one.

[HOLLiS]

War is hell. Best to make sure it's worth it before starting one.

That is a great point, When I was in 6th grade I read, "Johnny got his gun", it was about a survivor of WWI, who was nothing more than faceless, armless and legless torso. That was pretty much the contention of the book.

[ed316]

That is a great point, When I was in 6th grade I read, "Johnny got his gun", it was about a survivor of WWI, who was nothing more than faceless, armless and legless torso. That was pretty much the contention of the book.

I think Metallica use that movie for the song "One". Great song BTW.

[Plastic_Yank]

That is a great point, When I was in 6th grade I read, "Johnny got his gun", it was about a survivor of WWI, who was nothing more than faceless, armless and legless torso.And the dude was still alive? Sounds like an old E.C. Segar comic.

[HOLLiS]

And the dude was still alive? Sounds like an old E.C. Segar comic.

That was the pretense to the book,he survived a artillery shell exploding in front of him. Somehow he lived, he lived in a military hospital as a john doe, noone really knew who he was or what service or country. The first part of the books was his thoughts (keep in mind I read this in the very early 60's and memory may be off). Any way he found a way to communicate, morse code.. and there the story goes.

It is a fictional book.

[Plastic_Yank]

That was the pretense to the book,he survived a artillery shell exploding in front of him. Somehow he lived, he lived in a military hospital as a john doe, noone really knew who he was or what service or country. The first part of the books was his thoughts (keep in mind I read this in the very early 60's and memory may be off). Any way he found a way to communicate, morse code.. and there the story goes.

It is a fictional book.Odd, it sounds like something from one of Farley Mowat's books.