Report: Shooting of Cameraman Tragic But Justified

[AOCBravo2004]

LONDON (*******) - An American soldier who killed ******* cameraman Mazen Dana in Iraq (news - web sites) was justified in opening fire, a U.S. army report said on Monday.


The report, made public seven months after Dana died, found that the soldier's "decision to fire at Mr. Dana, though tragic and regrettable, was justified based on the information available to him at the time."


******* said it could not agree that the death of Dana, a prize-winning Palestinian cameraman, was justified and called for the urgent implementation of recommendations in the report to improve the safety of journalists in war zones.


It said Dana would not have died in the shooting outside Baghdad's Abu Ghraib prison on August 17 if the recommendations had been in place.


The Army report said the soldier, who shot from a tank, had a "reasonable certainty" that Dana was about to fire a rocket- propelled grenade (RPG), having mistaken his camera for a launcher. But it said the tank commander recognized Dana was holding a camera immediately after the fatal shots were fired.


The report concluded that lack of procedures for communicating the presence of journalists among U.S. troops contributed to the tragedy.


RECOMMENDATIONS


It made a series of recommendations, including better communication and coordination between U.S. units and wider dissemination of knowledge about the presence of journalists and other civilians in war zones.


******* Global Managing Editor David Schlesinger welcomed the thoroughness of the report but said: "In recent months the safety of journalists in Iraq has deteriorated significantly. To avoid further needless loss of life it is imperative that these recommendations be implemented immediately throughout all areas of conflict."


Journalists working in Iraq say most of the recommendations do not appear to have been enforced although the report was completed several months ago.


Dana was the second ******* cameraman killed in Iraq.


The first, Ukrainian Taras Protsyuk, died last April when a U.S. tank fired on the Palestine Hotel in Baghdad in the closing hours of the war to oust Saddam Hussein (news - web sites). Jose Couso, of Spain's Telecinco television, was also killed.


Schlesinger said in a statement both Dana and Protsyuk's deaths could have been avoided.


"We believe that the ******* staff killed in Iraq...would both still be alive if the recommendation regarding improved communications between U.S. units in the field and the military's high command had been implemented before their deaths."


Dana had made his presence known to U.S. troops at the prison and the Palestine was widely known to be a media hotel. But this information was not passed the units that fired. Dana's widow Suzan said in the Palestinian city of Ramallah: "I am not satisfied with the investigation at all. They said that Mazen did not do anything wrong, but at the same time they did not criticize the soldier who killed him. They are only trying to justify their actions."


Schlesinger said in his statement: "The Pentagon (news - web sites) must now accept that independent journalists will always operate in the field outside the embedding process and there need to be sensible and prudent measures to avoid them being killed."


RULES OF ENGAGEMENT





Schlesinger endorsed another recommendation in the report, for a review of the rules of engagement used by U.S. troops to reduce the risk of injury to non-combatants. The rules have never been made public by the Pentagon.

Other report recommendations welcomed by ******* were weekly security briefings for media organizations and improved systematic communication between media and the military.

The Pentagon report said "sudden movements" by Dana and the glare of the sun contributed to the soldier's decision to shoot him and the failure to identify a camera instead of an RPG.

******* says the evidence does not support these conclusions.

Two Iraqi journalists working for Dubai's Al Arabiya television died last week after being shot by U.S. troops in central Baghdad. That brought the number of media staff killed since the start of the war in Iraq to 36, according to the International Federation of Journalists.

Schlesinger's statement concluded: "The bottom line is that the military and media organizations must work together to improve journalist safety and ensure that it is approached on a programmatic, operational level that is relevant to all conflicts, not just the current one in Iraq."

It is sad that journalists are killed, but most of these guys are running around on their own, so what the US should inform them of ALL troop movements?!?! HELL NO!!! I'm gonna be a Marine officer soon and I'll be damned if I want some journalist to know the movements of my unit. Journalists know the risk they undertake in the job they are performing, if they can't accept that risk STAY OUT OF THE F-ING WAR ZONE!!! Sorry I just don't care for the media.

George

[EvanL]

LONDON (*******) - An American soldier who killed ******* cameraman Mazen Dana in Iraq (news - web sites) was justified in opening fire, a U.S. army report said on Monday.


The report, made public seven months after Dana died, found that the soldier's "decision to fire at Mr. Dana, though tragic and regrettable, was justified based on the information available to him at the time."


******* said it could not agree that the death of Dana, a prize-winning Palestinian cameraman, was justified and called for the urgent implementation of recommendations in the report to improve the safety of journalists in war zones.


It said Dana would not have died in the shooting outside Baghdad's Abu Ghraib prison on August 17 if the recommendations had been in place.


The Army report said the soldier, who shot from a tank, had a "reasonable certainty" that Dana was about to fire a rocket- propelled grenade (RPG), having mistaken his camera for a launcher. But it said the tank commander recognized Dana was holding a camera immediately after the fatal shots were fired.


The report concluded that lack of procedures for communicating the presence of journalists among U.S. troops contributed to the tragedy.


RECOMMENDATIONS


It made a series of recommendations, including better communication and coordination between U.S. units and wider dissemination of knowledge about the presence of journalists and other civilians in war zones.


******* Global Managing Editor David Schlesinger welcomed the thoroughness of the report but said: "In recent months the safety of journalists in Iraq has deteriorated significantly. To avoid further needless loss of life it is imperative that these recommendations be implemented immediately throughout all areas of conflict."


Journalists working in Iraq say most of the recommendations do not appear to have been enforced although the report was completed several months ago.


Dana was the second ******* cameraman killed in Iraq.


The first, Ukrainian Taras Protsyuk, died last April when a U.S. tank fired on the Palestine Hotel in Baghdad in the closing hours of the war to oust Saddam Hussein (news - web sites). Jose Couso, of Spain's Telecinco television, was also killed.


Schlesinger said in a statement both Dana and Protsyuk's deaths could have been avoided.


"We believe that the ******* staff killed in Iraq...would both still be alive if the recommendation regarding improved communications between U.S. units in the field and the military's high command had been implemented before their deaths."


Dana had made his presence known to U.S. troops at the prison and the Palestine was widely known to be a media hotel. But this information was not passed the units that fired. Dana's widow Suzan said in the Palestinian city of Ramallah: "I am not satisfied with the investigation at all. They said that Mazen did not do anything wrong, but at the same time they did not criticize the soldier who killed him. They are only trying to justify their actions."


Schlesinger said in his statement: "The Pentagon (news - web sites) must now accept that independent journalists will always operate in the field outside the embedding process and there need to be sensible and prudent measures to avoid them being killed."


RULES OF ENGAGEMENT





Schlesinger endorsed another recommendation in the report, for a review of the rules of engagement used by U.S. troops to reduce the risk of injury to non-combatants. The rules have never been made public by the Pentagon.

Other report recommendations welcomed by ******* were weekly security briefings for media organizations and improved systematic communication between media and the military.

The Pentagon report said "sudden movements" by Dana and the glare of the sun contributed to the soldier's decision to shoot him and the failure to identify a camera instead of an RPG.

******* says the evidence does not support these conclusions.

Two Iraqi journalists working for Dubai's Al Arabiya television died last week after being shot by U.S. troops in central Baghdad. That brought the number of media staff killed since the start of the war in Iraq to 36, according to the International Federation of Journalists.

Schlesinger's statement concluded: "The bottom line is that the military and media organizations must work together to improve journalist safety and ensure that it is approached on a programmatic, operational level that is relevant to all conflicts, not just the current one in Iraq."

It is sad that journalists are killed, but most of these guys are running around on their own, so what the US should inform them of ALL troop movements?!?! HELL NO!!! I'm gonna be a Marine officer soon and I'll be damned if I want some journalist to know the movements of my unit. Journalists know the risk they undertake in the job they are performing, if they can't accept that risk STAY OUT OF THE F-ING WAR ZONE!!! Sorry I just don't care for the media.

George
Freedom of the press buddy. If you dont like it. Shut up.
As long as theres a war the press will be there to cover the happenings.
nothing can stop them if they want to go.

[AOCBravo2004]

Did I say anything about suppressing Freedom of the Press? NO, READ AGAIN! I said they assume the risk of reporting in a warzone. Oh and don't tell me to shut up, I have freedom of speech, so how do you like them apples?

George

[EvanL]

Did I say anything about suppressing Freedom of the Press? NO, READ AGAIN! I said they assume the risk of reporting in a warzone. Oh and don't tell me to shut up, I have freedom of speech, so how do you like them apples?

George
You have small apples.

[TALOS]

Evan, he expressed his opinion, he has freedom of speach too you know. He didnt say they shouldnt be there but he is right that if they are they take a chance of getting killed. And for Army officers to announce their plans to a generally hostile group such as the left leaning media is just foolish.

[gilgoul]

[/quote]
Freedom of the press buddy. If you dont like it. Shut up.
As long as theres a war the press will be there to cover the happenings.
nothing can stop them if they want to go.[/quote]


Funny, I got the two sides of the problem, since I worked for a while as a freelance photographer, and find periodically myself in situations were journalists are hanging around a lot.
I fell pretty sorry for the guy, and a lot of other journalists kiled while doing their job, but on the other hand, it `s a part of the job and risks are known.
Other thing, without having to know were evevry unit is, you can make clear to everyone that you re on the spot, don`t wear military like outffit or then paint them in PINK, not this stupid UN like blue that the reporters use here, when not white, wich means you don`t see a darn thing in bright light, and bright light is pretty common in the ME.
Last thing, the ATTITUDE, when a reporter just landed from London or Paris things he can outsmart your military dumb ass, and hangs around with a group of armed "freedom fighter", and you get a clear shot, you might miss it once, you won`t miss the oportunity a second time.
The same guy thinks he can **** you and go around a check point with a f5 and 400 mm lens, when not a folding stock (like i`ve seen on a suicidal journalist in jerusalem :cantbeli: ), instead of coming a presenting himslef nicely and honestly at the check point, he becomes a legitimate target, because at 150m, you don`t see anymore if this is a camera or a grenade launcher.
Last thing, the Gear, the last model by lowe pro looks exactly like a chest webbing, might be sexy, but for the least suspicious.

good day :hug:

[AOCBravo2004]

Thank you Talos and Gilgoul, you guys actually took the time to carefully read what I wrote and understood it.

Frankly, I have the opinion that one death is too many, it was a shame what happened at the Palestine Hotel during OIF, but that is the fog of war.

This reminds me of an incident years ago I saw on the news when the Balkans was in American media everyday. Some cameraman was filming a downtown market underseige by a sniper then you see another cameraman peering around the corner with his big ol' camera and the sniper shoots the camera out of his hand. That reporter was damn lucky the round only injured his hand and not killed him.

George

PS @Talos: Remember that stupid moron Giraldo Rivera reporting the exact movements of the unit he was traveling with on LIVE TV!?!?!?! WTF!!!

[TALOS]

PS @Talos: Remember that stupid moron Giraldo Rivera reporting the exact movements of the unit he was traveling with on LIVE TV!?!?!?! WTF!!!

Yeh I do remember that. :roll: :cantbeli: some people dont pack their brains with them when they go to work eh.


Edit: for spelling

[Uncle Chô]

http://media.militaryphotos.net/photos/albums/close_protection_forces_haiti/aac.jpg
Look at this picture. You are a US/Canadian/French soldier 50m away and you have 1/2 second to decide whether the passenger of this motorbike is a threat or not.

What would do ? Hold your fire for more ID or press the trigger ?

This photographer put himself in danger, no question asked.

:cantbeli: Sometimes, people are brainless...

[Midav]

PS @Talos: Remember that stupid moron Giraldo Rivera reporting the exact movements of the unit he was traveling with on LIVE TV!?!?!?! WTF!!!

Yeh I do remember that. :roll: :cantbeli: some people dont pack their brains with them when they go to work eh.


Edit: for spelling

lol very true.

I remember watching it live on TV "We are here and in about a half hour, while other forces come up from the east and south, we will begin an assault on the city from right here and here..."

:cantbeli:

[WARPIG]

Freedom of the press buddy. If you dont like it. Shut up.
As long as theres a war the press will be there to cover the happenings.
nothing can stop them if they want to go.

Freedom to not get waxed by an RPG. If you don't like it .. go ahead and point a camera at me in a combat zone. If the media 'tards want to go running around a combat zone and expect not to get shot... well then maybe they should excercise their freedom to not be f**king stupid.

Those crazy-a55 cameramen that get up close to wild predators for a great shot of a lion eating a zebra carcass doen't get all spun up because the lion kills the cameraman because it mistakenly thought he was a threat.

So, if I mistake a shoulder held camera for an RPG when my buddies are gettin lit-up by RPG's .... by guerillas wearing civilian clothing... and ventilate your dumb ass. I will feel pretty bad. But not as bad as if I hesitate and let my crew get hit. Pointing **** at a tank in a battle zone is pretty much gonna envoke a negative reaction.
"
People demand freedom of speech as a compensation for the freedom of thought which they seldom use."
~Soren Kierkegaard (1813 - 1855)


Life is tuff... wear a friggin helmet.

[Argyll]

Freedom of the press buddy. If you dont like it. Shut up.
As long as theres a war the press will be there to cover the happenings.
nothing can stop them if they want to go.

Freedom to not get waxed by an RPG. If you don't like it .. go ahead and point a camera at me in a combat zone. If the media 'tards want to go running around a combat zone and expect not to get shot... well then maybe they should excercise their freedom to not be f**king stupid.

Those crazy-a55 cameramen that get up close to wild predators for a great shot of a lion eating a zebra carcass doen't get all spun up because the lion kills the cameraman because it mistakenly thought he was a threat.

So, if I mistake a shoulder held camera for an RPG when my buddies are gettin lit-up by RPG's .... by guerillas wearing civilian clothing... and ventilate your dumb ass. I will feel pretty bad. But not as bad as if I hesitate and let my crew get hit. Pointing **** at a tank in a battle zone is pretty much gonna envoke a negative reaction.
"
People demand freedom of speech as a compensation for the freedom of thought which they seldom use."
~Soren Kierkegaard (1813 - 1855)


Life is tuff... wear a friggin helmet.

................or don't photograph Lions!! ;)

[WARPIG]

One observation... do you see how the post and the article call the shooting of the cameraman "justified?" To evoke a response.
Instead of saying that the shooter was not held responsible or something more accurate. No one would reasonably justify the mistaken shooting of a non-combatant. Funny how the media can create just the right wording to skew the truth.

[Mechanical Ambush]

There's something wrong with shooting a camera man? rofl

[George W. Bush]

Good riddance. This guy reported half-truths and outright lies.

[HELEX]

Good riddance. This guy reported half-truths and outright lies.


:roll:


:cantbeli:

[Trident-za]

Good riddance. This guy reported half-truths and outright lies.

:roll: :roll: :roll:


Words fail me....

[AOCBravo2004]

You know GWB, I wonder if you have the b@lls to even say that to the man's family. Sheesh, I may not post here but I do read a lot of the posts and yours I mostly just scoot over as they are a waste of time.

For those of you that have seen the movie Hamburger Hill the media reminds me of this quote from the movie by Dylan McDermott to a reporter waiting at the bottom of the hill:

"You really like this **** dont you? Its your job, a story. You're waiting here like a fu@king vulture waiting for somebody to die so you can take a fu@king picture. I've got more resepect for the little b@stards up there. At least they take a side. You just take pictures. You probably don't do your own fu@king. Now una$$ my AO. You listen to me, we're gonna take this fu@king hill newsman. I see you on the top taking pictures of any of my people I will blow your fu@king head off. Now you haven't earned the right to be here. Do you understand that? Understand that."

Great line.

George

[usa320]

What pisses me off more is the people bjitching about the Al Arabia reporter that got offed after he ran a checkpoint. Just because they are the media doesnt mean they are exempt from checkpoints. If i was a soldier there and i saw someone drive through the checkpoint i would fire on them too...because for all i know he is a suicide bomber or a carjacker.

[Mr Gently Benevolent]

You know GWB, I wonder if you have the b@lls to even say that to the man's family.
Picture this: Dead guys many cousins cut GWB's throat like a billy goat while GWB bleats, squeals and gurgles like one.

[George W. Bush]

You know GWB, I wonder if you have the b@lls to even say that to the man's family.
Picture this: Dead guys many cousins cut GWB's throat like a billy goat while GWB bleats, squeals and gurgles like one.

I don't go nowhere without my piece :D Except school zones, bars, and other establishments where carrying is prohibited.

[Trident-za]

You know GWB, I wonder if you have the b@lls to even say that to the man's family.
Picture this: Dead guys many cousins cut GWB's throat like a billy goat while GWB bleats, squeals and gurgles like one.

I don't go nowhere without my piece :D Except school zones, bars, and other establishments where carrying is prohibited.

Is this supposed to impress us with your manliness? The fact that you "carry" means nothing (visit Sierra Leone with your "piece" - see where it gets you), not withstanding the fact that it's irrelevant to this topic.

[Mr Gently Benevolent]

I don't go nowhere without my piece :D Except school zones, bars, and other establishments where carrying is prohibited.
Best time to get someone is when they are eating or taking a ****, there is always an opportunity as they say "all things come to those who wait". :)

[Argyll]

You know GWB, I wonder if you have the b@lls to even say that to the man's family.
Picture this: Dead guys many cousins cut GWB's throat like a billy goat while GWB bleats, squeals and gurgles like one.

I don't go nowhere without my piece :D Except school zones, bars, and other establishments where carrying is prohibited.


a regular tough guy who need's a gun to act tough,..........fokin pussy!.

Your comment's on a considerable amount of topcs defies logic.....tell me bigshot,instead of posturing like a fokin peacock,why don't you go and enlist and put yourself into harms way.........or don't you have the bottle to do so?

[Trident-za]

Well said, Argyll

[Argyll]

a bloody gun is useless when someone hits you on the back of the head with a baseball bat........ ;)

[Trident-za]

Or even uses a bit of pepper spray? Damn hard to use a firearm when you can't see ****....

[Marmot1]

Well army is not the babysitting organization. This is war zone if they are there to win Pulitzer they must know that they can be shot dead...

[usa320]

marmot speaks the utter truth.

If you cant take the heat, dont go in the oven.

[Maverick77]

I would of shot him too.

Imagine being in a guerilla war where you yourself are fired on at least once a day.

Your driving down a street and theres some ****er standing at the corner of an intersection with something mounted on his shoulder pointing it at you.

You fire to live and don't think twice about it.

The soldier might feel like **** now, I don't know.... but he does, then he shouldn't

[Argyll]

There never was going to be any other verdict on this incident

Airborne
I've been in this situation in Northern Ireland as has thousands of other British soldiers,the difference here is that we had plenty of training to deal with this type of situation........our ROE's were pretty explicit......But It must be a "positive ID" on whether the subject is armed or not,people have been shot and killed by British troops for carrying "something" that looked like a weapon........and when it was found that it was not a weapon these soldiers were charged with murder,which is always the case regardless.


Accidents happen,but to minimise these incidents tighter ROE's end up getting implemented

[Marmot1]

http://images.google.pl/images?q=tbn:vMw_SWDpTWwJ:www.victrace.demon.nl/cameraman.gif

look at this one it certanly might be taken as RPG or other shoulder fired misile...

REAL RPG
http://www.theprofessionals.it/english/rpg7.JPG

[Haiw]

You know GWB, I wonder if you have the b@lls to even say that to the man's family.
Picture this: Dead guys many cousins cut GWB's throat like a billy goat while GWB bleats, squeals and gurgles like one.

I don't go nowhere without my piece :D Except school zones, bars, and other establishments where carrying is prohibited.
I guess when you always act like you act in here you HAVE to carry to survive... :roll:

[Caribou Kid]

Argyll, once again you have proven to be the word of reason amidst a sea of madness.

Folks, Murder is still murder, irrespective of whether you are in uniform or not. If there was not such an all-encompassing attitude of "You do what you gotta to get you and your troops home" then maybe we would all be a little better off. While I fully respect the motivation of a soldier wanting to get back home alive and intact, do not lose sight of the fact that you are but a very small cog in a much larger machine. You are still a representative of your country whilst overseas, and the folks (and politicians) back home have a right to see how little johnnie is doing all the way over in the nasty snake pit in the sand, representing his country,and the way that is done is by beaming back pictures and stories of little johnnie doing "the job" so it can be printed in the local newspaper, or plastered all over the local 6 o'clock news bulletin. So these dreaded "media vultures" do actually serve a purpose, okay.

Unless you like your news stories spoon-fed to you by the PR wing of your Military (The world is NOT like stars and stripes magazine, okay?) you seek a second unbiased opinion. (remember how the "Kursk" sinking incident was badly handled in the press when it first happened? Trust, but verify!) Enter your friendly local neighborhood media journalist, stage left.
Don't agree with what they have to say? Then change the damn channel, or buy a different paper. It's as simple as that really. Just like shopping around for a second opinion with a doctor. You exercise your FREEDOM to choose. Or has your skin-tight Burkha cut off the circulation to your head? ;)

Besides that, the media also serve to keep the whole untidy affair somewhat Honest and accountable, to a limited degree. Does anyone on here not think that the My Lai village massacre would have been swept under the carpet (like in the Oliver Stone Movie "PLATOON." "Do it, man, lets do this whole f_ckin' village..") had it not received the media coverage it did? Does anyone still recall that old bogeyman, the dreaded "Gulf war syndrome?" According to most official Military spokespersons, IT IS JUST AN URBAN LEGEND. Who do you believe? Brass, or Media? p-)

But before I get too carried away, is the irony of this not as obvious to others as it is to me? here we are, on an website devoted to Military pictures, and you have the gall to gripe about the reporters and photogs that go out and find the very items we are interested in??? Please, people, ensure brain is in gear before engaging mouth, or in this instance, keystokes. If it weren't for those damned media, this website would be little more than a collection of personal galleries and anecdotes. Not every soldier is a Timothy Mcveigh, and not every Journalist is Geraldo Rivera, all right? sheesh. Get a grip here, eh?

[WARPIG]

Argyll, once again you have proven to be the word of reason amidst a sea of madness.

Folks, Murder is still murder, irrespective of whether you are in uniform or not. If there was not such an all-encompassing attitude of "You do what you gotta to get you and your troops home" then maybe we would all be a little better off. While I fully respect the motivation of a soldier wanting to get back home alive and intact, do not lose sight of the fact that you are but a very small cog in a much larger machine. You are still a representative of your country whilst overseas, and the folks (and politicians) back home have a right to see how little johnnie is doing all the way over in the nasty snake pit in the sand, representing his country,and the way that is done is by beaming back pictures and stories of little johnnie doing "the job" so it can be printed in the local newspaper, or plastered all over the local 6 o'clock news bulletin. So these dreaded "media vultures" do actually serve a purpose, okay.

Unless you like your news stories spoon-fed to you by the PR wing of your Military (The world is NOT like stars and stripes magazine, okay?) you seek a second unbiased opinion. (remember how the "Kursk" sinking incident was badly handled in the press when it first happened? Trust, but verify!) Enter your friendly local neighborhood media journalist, stage left.
Don't agree with what they have to say? Then change the damn channel, or buy a different paper. It's as simple as that really. Just like shopping around for a second opinion with a doctor. You exercise your FREEDOM to choose. Or has your skin-tight Burkha cut off the circulation to your head? ;)

Besides that, the media also serve to keep the whole untidy affair somewhat Honest and accountable, to a limited degree. Does anyone on here not think that the My Lai village massacre would have been swept under the carpet (like in the Oliver Stone Movie "PLATOON." "Do it, man, lets do this whole f_ckin' village..") had it not received the media coverage it did? Does anyone still recall that old bogeyman, the dreaded "Gulf war syndrome?" According to most official Military spokespersons, IT IS JUST AN URBAN LEGEND. Who do you believe? Brass, or Media? p-)

But before I get too carried away, is the irony of this not as obvious to others as it is to me? here we are, on an website devoted to Military pictures, and you have the gall to gripe about the reporters and photogs that go out and find the very items we are interested in??? Please, people, ensure brain is in gear before engaging mouth, or in this instance, keystokes. If it weren't for those damned media, this website would be little more than a collection of personal galleries and anecdotes. Not every soldier is a Timothy Mcveigh, and not every Journalist is Geraldo Rivera, all right? sheesh. Get a grip here, eh?
I don't know what you want us to get a grip on but maybe you need to use both of your hands as well.
The US soldier is not out in a combat zone thinking of how he can best represent his country and bring freedom to the masses. He is not worried about whether people like what he is doing, why he is doing it or what political means his being there will provide. He has his orders, his training, his ethics, and the man next to him. I might not like the Newsies myself but that doesn't mean I don't have some remorse over someone being killed. (don't lump us in with George W.) It is not murder. The cameraman knew there was danger, and went out to get his shot anyway. Stupid. Plain and simple. They do it all the time and know how stupid it really is. But, like you said, their presence is important. Blaming the soldier that was doing his job... (which by the way is not representing the country,but fighting and surviving during combat)... is simply ridiculous.
I will tell my soldiers to do exactly the same. Identify your targets, but don't hesitate. My life, my squads lives, are crucial to the mission. If I fail, die, lose my squad.. then the mission I was ordered to carry out fails too. No matter how you slice it.. a soldier has to do what he can to get himself and his brothers back home. The price you pay for that is that you may have to kill. That is a high price no matter what. Men who serve know that. You should learn it. My right to choose whether to kill or be killed is not quite like shopping for a doctor. I could wait to see if they shoot at me, but experience tells me bullets and rockets aren't going to give me a second chance.

I am a leader of soldiers, a professional. I train my squad to do their job to the absolute best of their ability. The training I stress the most is their ethical integrity. I tell them that you will be put in a position where you will have to kill. You will be put in a position where you will be killed. What you do in that situation will stay with you for the rest of your life. Maybe the rest of your life will be the milliseconds that it takes for a bullet to reach you... maybe it will be a long and sleepless life, haunted by the face of the people you killed, or the friends you lost. Choose well.
I train them in "shoot/don't shoot" scenarios. The silence that we share when we realized we are dead, or have killed in error ... is haunting.
Don't presume you know didly-**** about how a soldier should conduct himself when faced with death.

The soldier that shot the cameraman was faced with death. He chose... and is paying the price. The cameraman had a choice as well, he paid his price.
It is well that war is terrible, lest we might like it....eh?

[Royal]

I'm torn between Warpig and Argyll.

Murder is an emotive word, manslaughter is a better description, but Argyll is right, British soldiers have been convicted of murder in similar circumstances.

On the other hand his point about ROE and training is valid here as is 'organisational culture'. The UK forces went through a cultural change with NI (but retained a war fighting spirit, as evinced by the Falklands). Proportionality and restraint are vital in PSO's and Peace Enforcement Ops (as Iraq has become) - crew served weapons are not the order of the day here, PsyOps, SF, IW's and snipers are.

The ability to transition back to a warfighting stance is vital, but I fear that the US has yet to gain that culture of restaint.


I will tell my soldiers to do exactly the same. Identify your targets, but don't hesitate. My life, my squads lives, are crucial to the mission. If I fail, die, lose my squad.. then the mission I was ordered to carry out fails too.

I'm sorry, but that hesitation is vital - it enables a proper identification of the target. You're paid to be in harms way, it goes with the turf.

[WARPIG]

I'm torn between Warpig and Argyll.

Murder is an emotive word, manslaughter is a better description, but Argyll is right, British soldiers have been convicted of murder in similar circumstances.

On the other hand his point about ROE and training is valid here as is 'organisational culture'. The UK forces went through a cultural change with NI (but retained a war fighting spirit, as evinced by the Falklands). Proportionality and restraint are vital in PSO's and Peace Enforcement Ops (as Iraq has become) - crew served weapons are not the order of the day here, PsyOps, SF, IW's and snipers are.

The ability to transition back to a warfighting stance is vital, but I fear that the US has yet to gain that culture of restaint.
I can see your point. I think this is a slight misnomer though. The numbers agree with you but keep in mind the difference in the size of our militaries. Keeping it in context I think is important. I do agree however that the US is behind the curve when it comes to target ID. Not quite as bad as we are percieved to be though.


I will tell my soldiers to do exactly the same. Identify your targets, but don't hesitate. My life, my squads lives, are crucial to the mission. If I fail, die, lose my squad.. then the mission I was ordered to carry out fails too.

I'm sorry, but that hesitation is vital - it enables a proper identification of the target. You're paid to be in harms way, it goes with the turf.
I get you brother. I think I my statement was misleading. I am an Infantryman and a Military Policeman. ROE is decidedly different for each. As an MP I know that my AO is going to be diverse and I have to be very specific about what I shoot at. As a grunt, I expect to be put in the front lines (or as a paratrooper behind enemy lines) and my ROE will reflect this. My orders to my MPs would be to positively ID targets at all costs. My mission is to protect as an MP. A grunt, tanker, etc is not there to protect (generally speaking) and hesitation will get you and your mission killed. Especially with the RPGs in Iraq. Situations, op tempo, nature of the enemy, ability to ID targets.. the list goes on... all are tough factors to measure in.. and all are subject to Murphy's law.
Even with our differences in our opinions, I don't think that you believe that soldier should be held responsible for the cameraman's death. Without the details, the fact that he saw what he believed was an RPG meant he didn't just shooting whatever moved. He made a mistake.

[Royal]

Even with our differences in our opinions, I don't think that you believe that soldier should be held responsible for the cameraman's death. Without the details, the fact that he saw what he believed was an RPG meant he didn't just shooting whatever moved. He made a mistake.

No I don't. IIRC I said as much on this board when the incident happened.

I take your point about the relative sizr of our forces (and the dangers in our respective AOR's in Iraq), but IMHO, my point stands.

Also whether paratrooper, infantryman, MP or chef, in PSO/PEO's there has to be a culture shift in order to do the job. Whether we like it or not, Iraq is not now a warfighting Op.

[WARPIG]

Ok, Royal. I think we actually see this the same way. We are just to bullheaded to admit it. Well you are mate. ;)

I think it would be fair to say.. no matter what your job, mission, or whether your US or UK military... knowing your target is exceedingly important. The consequences are dire, no matter the decision to shoot or not to shoot.
Per capita I think US forces are just as cautious as the next.. but as we are large and powerful, we need to raise the bar.

[Royal]

Me? Bullheaded?

Surely some mistake ;)

[WARPIG]

I was looking forward to a summer exchange program in the UK so I could butt heads with some Squaddies in person. But, it won't happen. Not only can I not go.. but I have to turn in my MP Brassard and become some kind of admin puke.