View Full Version : What has happened to Petr Velikij?
Russian flagship 'could explode'
The Russian nuclear cruiser Peter the Great is too dangerous to be at sea and has been moored in port, Russia's naval commander-in-chief has said.
Admiral Vladimir Kuroyedov said the Northern Fleet's flagship "could go sky high at any minute".
He said this was especially dangerous as the ship was equipped with a nuclear reactor.
Russia's Northern Fleet has recently been plagued by a series of incidents beginning with the Kursk disaster.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/3560249.stm
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12:41 – 13:25
Куроедов: "Петр Великий" может в любой момент взлететь на воздух
Неудачный пуск баллистической ракеты с АПЛ «Карелия» 18 февраля в ходе стратегической командно-штабной тренировки связан с превышением срока ее эксплуатации более чем в два раза. Об этом главком ВМФ России Владимир Куроедов сообщил на встрече с журналистами.
«Ракета была выпущена в 1987 году с гарантийным сроком службы изделия семь с половиной лет. К настоящему времени этот срок превышен более чем в два раза. Поэтому все те узкие места, которые были в ракете при ее выпуске, не могли сейчас не проявиться», – сказал Куроедов.
Главком сообщил, что вероятность успешных пусков ракет РСМ-54 составляeт 95%. Отвечая на вопросы, Куроедов оценил ракету как «хорошую», сообщает РИА "Новости".
Кроме того, Куроедов объяснил причину заявления о неудовлетворительном состоянии флагмана Северного флота ТАРК "Петр Великий".
"Флагман Северного флота "Петр Великий" поставлен на двухнедельную стоянку, поскольку не соответствует нормам боеготовности. На устранение недостатков я дал две недели. На корабле там, где ходят адмиралы, все в порядке, а там, где они не ходят, все в таком состоянии, что крейсер может в любой момент взлететь на воздух", - сказал Куроедов.
Главком возложил ответственность за плачевное состояние "Петра Великого" на его командира, а также руководящий состав Северного флота.
Кроме того, экипаж крейсера "Петр Великий" не будет получать часть денежного довольствия около двух-трех месяцев, пока не пройдет повторный курс боевой подготовки.
Решение по ТАРК "Петр Великий" было принято на следующий день после проведения в Баренцевом море повторного пуска межконтинентальных баллистических ракет с атомной подводной лодки "Новомосковск". 17 марта Куроедов лично наблюдал за ходом пусков именно с борта "Петра Великого".
18 марта Куроедов снял с "Петра Великого" вымпел (символ боевой готовности корабля).
// Газета.Ru
http://www.gazeta.ru/2004/03/23/last115580.shtml
Kingpin
03-23-2004, 05:34 AM
Мне кажется он просто издевается над корреспондентом :)
Но по любому история довольно загадочная.
PermskiOMON, could you give some insight, you being an expert in Russian arsenal? And also some comments about the lurking eko-catastrophe around Murmansk?
Oh, it's probably the Chechens, doing their nasty tricks. Stupid me.
PermskiOMON, could you give some insight, you being an expert in Russian arsenal? And also some comments about the lurking eko-catastrophe around Murmansk?
Oh, it's probably the Chechens, doing their nasty tricks. Stupid me.Elmo. Please. Try not to flame another war of Russia vs World series. Can You do it 4 me?
Sure, you are right.
Chechen part was out of line. My mistake.
Kingpin
03-23-2004, 05:54 AM
PermskiOMON, could you give some insight, you being an expert in Russian arsenal? And also some comments about the lurking eko-catastrophe around Murmansk?
Oh, it's probably the Chechens, doing their nasty tricks. Stupid me.
You just ruined my image of Finns. I thought it is noble people. :slap:
Kingpin
03-23-2004, 05:59 AM
As far as i understand bureaucrats language he said that ship maintenance was very bad due to crew. Sailors now left without half of salary for several months :)
If Kuroedov really said so, things must be serious... The guy is rather not the person who "boltaet" first about such things if they are not real threat... It's his flagship.
Kingpin, pls stay calm too...
Kingpin
03-23-2004, 06:08 AM
I'm in good mood today. There is a nice bottle of beer standing next to my computer. Soon i open it and...... :) :) :)
Steve Railsback
03-23-2004, 06:11 AM
According to the newspaper ”Kommersant” the ordering of Northern Fleet's nuclear-powered flagship, "Peter the Great," into dock is due to a personal conflict between Kuroyedov and the retired admiral Igor Kasatonov. Kasatonov is the uncle to the captain of “Peter the Great,” Vladimir Kastonov. The newspaper is also speculating in that Kuroyedov have personal goal to disgrace the former top commander, admiral Gennadij Sutsjkov.
http://spb.org.ru/bellona/imgs/nfl/61f31.jpg
Guided-Missile Cruiser Peter the Great
The heavy nuclear-powered guided-missile cruiser of the Kirov class, project 1144, was designed and built by the Baltic Shipyard in St. Petersburg. It is intended to destroy large surface ships and to protect friendly ships from an airborne or submerged adversary.
All in all, there were four project 1144 and 1144.2 ships built. The fifth cruiser, the Dzerzhinsky, was dismantled while still in dry dock.
The Pyotr Velikiy (Peter the Great) became an active part of the sea-going forces in 1995.
It is equipped with 20 Granit (Granite) long-range anti-ship missiles. While airborne, the missiles exchange target data. To hamper interception and achieve better target acquisition, the lead missile will follow a higher-altitude path, with the others flying low above the sea surface. If the leader gets intercepted, another missile will pop up automatically in its place.
The cruiser mounts the S-300F Fort air-defense system with 12 launchers and 96 missiles. There is also the Kinzhal (Dagger) self-contained ship air-defense system designed to protect the cruiser from anti-ship missiles, aircraft and ships.
The artillery is made up of an AK-130 coaxial 130-mm system, which can fire up to the maximum range of 22 km at 90 rounds a minute. The ship also carries Kortik (Dirk) quick-firing automatic systems.
The Kortik (Kashtan) quick-firing system is of modular design and includes two command and six fighting modules. The command module determines a threat and transmits the data to a fighting module, which then tracks the target, makes the necessary computations, and engages the target with missiles and cannon fire. Its cannon can shoot as many as 10,000 rounds a minute.
To provide for anti-submarine defense, there are three Ka-27PL or Ka-25RT helicopters, the Vodopad-NK (Waterfall) anti-submarine missile system, and the Udav (Boa) missile and bomb system.
The 140,000 HP nuclear power plant has two 300MW reactors and two auxiliary steam boilers. The ship-s maximum speed is about 30 knots, or 17 knots if propelled by steam.
More on the type Kirov: http://spb.org.ru/bellona/ehome/russia/nfl/1144.htm
Kingpin
03-23-2004, 06:13 AM
According to the newspaper ”Kommersant” the ordering of Northern Fleet's nuclear-powered flagship, "Peter the Great," into dock is due to a personal conflict between Kuroyedov and the retired admiral Igor Kasatonov. Kasatonov is the uncle to the captain of “Peter the Great,” Vladimir Kastonov. The newspaper is also speculating in that Kuroyedov have personal goal to disgrace the former top commander, admiral Gennadij Sutsjkov.
I read this version. Who knows...
According to the newspaper ”Kommersant” the ordering of Northern Fleet's nuclear-powered flagship, "Peter the Great," into dock is due to a personal conflict between Kuroyedov and the retired admiral Igor Kasatonov. Kasatonov is the uncle to the captain of “Peter the Great,” Vladimir Kastonov. The newspaper is also speculating in that Kuroyedov have personal goal to disgrace the former top commander, admiral Gennadij Sutsjkov. Hope You are right and it's really only some personal fight... but I doubt it. Would You, as a CIC of the Fleet, use such a publicly stated accusations to get rid of son of the retire admiral? This affair could only show Your incompetence, as You are not able to keep Your nuclear powered flagship in working condition...
Peter The Great will "sink" Kuroedov
http://images.pravda.ru/img/2004/03/kuroedov.jpg
«Петр Великий» потопит Куроедова
23.03.2004 11:06
Устраняя потенциальных конкурентов, главком позабыл о флоте
Признанный лучшим по итогам боевой подготовки в 2003 году тяжелый атомный ракетный крейсер Северного флота «Петр Великий» выведен из состава сил постоянной боевой готовности. Ближайшие два месяца корабль проведет у причальной стенки, а его экипаж лишится трети своего денежного довольствия - так называемых морских выплат. Это решение без объяснения причин принял главком Военно-морского флота адмирал Владимир Куроедов.
«Для нас это настоящий шок, - заявили в штабе Северного флота. - Корабль не вылезал из морей с декабря прошлого года. По итогам проходившей в январе - феврале этого года стратегической командно-штабной тренировки Вооруженных сил, за ходом которой следил лично президент Владимир Путин, крейсер получил оценку «отлично», а его командиру Владимиру Касатонову присвоено звание контр-адмирала, замечают Грани.ру.
Теперь же получается, что нам ставят два балла, и чтобы исправить ситуацию, экипаж крейсера вынужден будет заново пройти курс учебно-боевой подготовки за январь - март 2004 года». Главком ВМФ Владимир Куроедов наблюдал за действиями команды крейсера во время учений «Безопасность-2004», проходивших с 10 по 18 февраля. Тогда «Петр Великий» отражал воздушную атаку условного противника, в Баренцевом море были сорваны учебно-боевые пуски баллистических ракет с атомных подлодок «Новомосковск» и «Карелия». «По всей видимости, именно тогда Куроедов усмотрел в действиях команды неполное соответствие стандартам боевой подготовки», - сказал источник в штабе. За учениями наблюдал президент Владимир Путин, который распорядился создать межведомственную комиссию и установить причины срыва пусков.
Как удалось узнать «Известиям», конфликт вокруг крейсера и его экипажа возник далеко не на почве боевой подготовки и боеготовности корабля. По словам источника газеты в штабе флота, причиной наказания корабля, а точнее его командира контр-адмирала Владимира Касатонова, стал поступок его дяди адмирала Игоря Касатонова - бывшего заместителя главкома ВМФ, приглашенного в качестве эксперта на судебные слушания по делу затопления выведенной из состава флота атомной подводной лодки К-159. Говорят, что выступление Игоря Касатонова в североморском суде очень не понравилось нынешнему главкому ВМФ Владимиру Куроедову, так как фактически опровергло его версию о причинах затопления АПЛ и тем самым оправдало действия в той ситуации командующего флотом вице-адмирала Геннадия Сучкова.
Сучков был назначен на должность командующего Северным флотом не без личного участия Куроедова - считался его человеком. Однако после гибели К-159 Куроедов фактически был вынужден его «сдать». Впрочем, есть и другая версия (ее выдвинул «Ъ»), Куроедов увидел в Сучкове угрозу. В свое время именно адмиралу Сучкову прочили должность главкома. И если «Петр Великий», в бытность господина Сучкова командующим СФ признанный лучшим кораблем флота, оказывается среди отстающих, то это бросает тень и на самого адмирала Сучкова.
Эта версия косвенно подтверждается и другим «кадровым скандалом». В 2002 году из вооруженных сил был уволен другой перспективный адмирал – 52-летний командующий Черноморским флотом Владимир Комоедов. Главком Куроедов отстранил его от должности на основании решения медкомиссии, признавшей адмирала Комоедова ограниченно годным к военной службе. Господин Комоедов попытался обжаловать решение главкома в суде, но президент Владимир Путин не потерпел «бунта на корабле» и своим указом уволил командующего ЧФ. Тогда в окружении адмирала Куроедова говорили, что таким образом главком ВМФ устранил опасного претендента на пост главкома.
Аппаратные интриги отодвинули на второй план проблемы флота. Безнадзорное дитя напомнило о себе двумя катастрофами («Курск» и К-159), а также неудачными пусками морских стратегических ракет РСМ-54 с борта АПЛ «Новомосковск» и «Карелия» на глазах у президента в ходе стратегической командно-штабной тренировки. Как говорят эксперты, по существующей в армии и на флоте системе ни одно из этих событий не могло произойти без ведома Владимира Куроедова. Тем не менее, каждый раз ему удавалось уйти от прямой ответственности. Похоже, лимит везения исчерпан.
Егор Белоус
http://politics.pravda.ru/politics/2004/1/100/401/16402_KUROEDOV.html
Mr Gently Benevolent
03-23-2004, 06:25 AM
I read that this particular ship has had more than its fair share of problems at least 5 crew have died during sea trails when a turbine blew up.
According to the newspaper ”Kommersant” the ordering of Northern Fleet's nuclear-powered flagship, "Peter the Great," into dock is due to a personal conflict between Kuroyedov and the retired admiral Igor Kasatonov. Kasatonov is the uncle to the captain of “Peter the Great,” Vladimir Kastonov. The newspaper is also speculating in that Kuroyedov have personal goal to disgrace the former top commander, admiral Gennadij Sutsjkov.
I read this version. Who knows...
There it is......
Северный флот лишился флагмана
// скандал
http://www.kommersant.ru/ISSUES.PHOTO/DAILY/2004/051/02VMF.jpg
Фото: ИТАР-ТАСС
Командиру крейсера "Петр Великий" контр-адмиралу Владимиру Касатонову придется два месяца провести у причальной стенки
Вчера стало известно, что главком ВМФ адмирал флота Владимир Куроедов своим распоряжением на двухмесячный срок отстранил от боевой учебы флагман Северного флота атомный ракетный крейсер "Петр Великий". На нем уже спущен вымпел принадлежности к кораблям постоянной боеготовности. Крейсер проведет на базе два месяца, в течение которых экипажу не будут выплачиваться так называемые морские. После этого экипажу "Петра Великого" предстоит пересдача курса учебно-боевой подготовки за три месяца 2003 года.
Когда 17 марта на борт флагмана Северного флота (СФ) поднялся главком ВМФ адмирал флота Владимир Куроедов, ничто не предвещало беды: экипаж уже привык к визитам высокопоставленных адмиралов. Однако по окончании 15-часового пребывания на "Петре Великом" на совещании в штабе Северного флота главком распорядился отстранить крейсер от боевой учебы на два месяца. Это распоряжение выглядело тем более неожиданным, что по итогам 2003 учебного года "Петр Великий" был признан лучшим кораблем СФ.
Источник Ъ в штабе СФ предположил, что причиной принятого адмиралом Куроедовым решения могла послужить информация о том, что бывший первый замглавкома ВМФ адмирал в отставке Игорь Касатонов, выступивший 16 марта на закрытом судебном процессе в Североморске в качестве эксперта по делу о гибели подводной лодки К-159 и девяти членов ее экипажа, подверг действия адмирала Куроедова резкой критике. А командиром "Петра Великого" является контр-адмирал Владимир Касатонов, которому Игорь Касатонов приходится дядей.
Впрочем, нынешние действия главкома Куроедова могут быть направлены и против адмирала Геннадия Сучкова, в сентябре 2003 года отстраненного президентом Владимиром Путиным от должности командующего СФ на период расследования причин гибели атомной подлодки К-159 с девятью подводниками. В свое время именно адмиралу Сучкову прочили должность главкома. И если "Петр Великий", в бытность господина Сучкова командующим СФ признанный лучшим кораблем флота, оказывается среди отстающих, то это бросает тень и на самого адмирала Сучкова.
Эта версия косвенно подтверждается и другим "кадровым скандалом". В 2002 году из вооруженных сил был уволен другой перспективный адмирал – 52-летний командующий Черноморским флотом Владимир Комоедов. Главком Куроедов отстранил его от должности на основании решения медкомиссии, признавшей адмирала Комоедова ограниченно годным к военной службе. Господин Комоедов попытался обжаловать решение главкома в суде, но президент Владимир Путин не потерпел "бунта на корабле" и своим указом уволил командующего ЧФ. Тогда в окружении адмирала Куроедова говорили, что таким образом главком ВМФ устранил опасного претендента на пост главкома.
Вместе с тем источник в главкомате ВМФ посоветовал корреспонденту Ъ не делать из происшедшего с "Петром Великим" далеко идущих выводов. По его мнению, в мае, когда крейсер возобновит боевую учебу, у его экипажа будет возможность реабилитироваться накануне запланированного на июнь подведения итогов первого полугодия.
Как хвалили крейсер "Петр Великий"
13 июня 1996 года тяжелый атомный ракетный крейсер "Петр Великий", который тогда достраивался на Балтийском заводе, посетил президент РФ Борис Ельцин. Глава государства заполнил первый лист в книге почетных посетителей, выступил перед экипажем и вручил ему личный штандарт. Вскоре по распоряжению Бориса Ельцина на проведение государственных испытаний корабля выделили 50 млрд руб.
19 апреля 1998 года президент РФ направил приветствие экипажу крейсера по случаю включения этого корабля в состав ВМФ РФ. "Родина доверила вам один из лучших военных кораблей. Уверен, что вы не подведете",– говорилось в письме.
21 августа 1998 года Борис Ельцин вновь посетил крейсер и наблюдал с его борта учения Северного флота. Затем президент вручил вручил десяти увольняемым морякам "Петра Великого" жилищные сертификаты и пообещал взять под личный контроль погашение долгов по зарплате военнослужащим.
По итогам 2000 учебного года "Петр Великий" признан лучшим кораблем ВМФ России и награжден почетным кубком губернатора Мурманской области.
По итогам 2002 года крейсер получил приз главкома ВМФ.
4 марта 2002 года в ходе инспекционной поездки на Северный флот министр обороны РФ Сергей Иванов встретился с экипажем крейсера, вручил ряду военнослужащих медали и присвоил досрочные звания двум офицерам "Петра Великого".
27 июля 2003 года министр обороны Сергей Иванов, вновь посетив "Петр Великий", заявил журналистам: "Очень высока степень боеспособности флота".
По итогам учебного 2003 года "Петр Великий" признан лучшим кораблем Северного флота.
ИВАН Ъ-САФРОНОВ
ShotOver
03-23-2004, 07:01 AM
Jesus christ... this is not good.
Ian H
03-23-2004, 07:15 AM
On the other hand, yes it is. Its far less likely to blow up now than if any problems had been ignored (assuming that's not just a smokescreen). It'd be like the Kursk times about 5. No chance of hiding it this time either.
So much for the 'pride' of the Russian Navy... ;)
At second glance the situation may not be as bad as it could be concluded from the english speaking media briefs. Kuroedov was to make a review on the board of Petr Velikij and say that: The ship looks fine where admirals are walking, but the conditions of other parts of the vessel may cause it explodes any time".
On one side saying that he could (should) be aware that media (also Russian one) will understand only that "the ship may go foo at any moment" - so it is a direct threat of reactor explosion or smth similar. His statement was then completely moronic, and I believe his days as a CIC of WMF are counted.
Interesting are the conclusions he drawed of the ship's conditions... ordinary sailors will not get their payment and will be forced to undergo 3 months of addistional training... well things go as usual... It's the sailors who are guilty...
The ship's condition whatsoever must be very bad, as it was not going to the sea since December 2003 and it was not even suitable to take part in the Northern Fleet Exercises held before the presidential elections in Russia. Northern Fleet as being the pride of Putin, ahs suffered another humiliation because of the poor condition of it's flagship was exposed to the World by... it's own CIC. It's a really BIG mistake of his... that only be compared to the military secrets revealing.... So in next few days we may assume that WMF shall have a new commander appointed. What are Your bets? Poor health, early retirement or other important duties?
HELEX
03-23-2004, 10:27 AM
Hey, where is the "russian Equipment is the best available" guy of this Forum now? rofl
Mr Gently Benevolent
03-23-2004, 10:31 AM
Hey, where is the "russian Equipment is the best available" guy of this Forum now? rofl
I would say Russsian equipment is good but like anything else with moving parts if you do not look after it something usually goes wrong.
Kingpin
03-23-2004, 11:06 AM
Hey, where is the "russian Equipment is the best available" guy of this Forum now? rofl
It seems your English skills very weak. You didn't notice one thing. Critical thing. Equipment is as good as maintenance which was very bad. How crew efforts connected with quality of equipment itself?
It seems your English skills very weak. You didn't notice one thing. Critical thing. Equipment is as good as maintenance which was very bad. How crew efforts connected with quality of equipment itself?So You are convinced that it was the crew to blame? They have gathered all the Northern Fleet's stooges to put them to the flagship? You think that if these guys will get 3 months additional training, they will become the best sailors in the fleet - worth enough to serve at the Fleet's flagship? You think that 3 months without pay is enough punishment for the crew that let the flagship to such condition?
HELEX
03-23-2004, 01:08 PM
You think that 3 months without pay is enough punishment for the crew that let the flagship to such condition?
Russian Soldiers are..... ...........paid???!??!
You think that 3 months without pay is enough punishment for the crew that let the flagship to such condition?
Russian Soldiers are..... ...........paid???!??!Did You think that all the weapons systems on such a vessel are manned by draft soldiers? rofl
HELEX
03-23-2004, 01:34 PM
Did You think that all the weapons systems on such a vessel are manned by draft soldiers?
No, I was thinking they serve for the Food they get sometimes.... rofl
Did You think that all the weapons systems on such a vessel are manned by draft soldiers?
No, I was thinking they serve for the Food they get sometimes.... roflVery funny... :cantbeli:
von_Moo142
03-23-2004, 02:00 PM
Petr Velikiy is the 4th and last ship of the Adm. Ushakov class (ex. Kirov class, name changed for obvious reasons when Russia retained the ships on the break-up of the USSR).
This class of ships has always had some problems, a lot of which IMO stem from the use of a dual nuclear/conventional propusion system, which is supposed to be fairly complicated. In fact some sources have claimed that the Moskva class(ex. Slava class, same as above) was intended, as a backup in case the Kirovs didn't work.
Its notable that the first ship, Ushakov, suffered a nuclear accident in 1990, and has been inactive since then. Some websites claim that this unit will be reactivated though, or may have even been reactivated (I'd like to see what Janes has to say on this).
Its also notable that Petr Velikiy has the strongest point defence (on paper, at least) of any warship, and a faily formidable long rage AAW and ASW armament.
Its likely that any problems the ship is having now come from more than one source. The ship has seen some long periods of inactivity, and this would be a major contributing factor to its condition now.
See hazegray and global security for some light reading on theese ships.
Lots of people suggesting Russia equipment is rubbish here. And perhaps gloating a bit too soon...
Russian Admiral Causes Flap Over Nuclear Ship Risk
Tue Mar 23,11:05 AM ET Add Top Stories - ******* to My Yahoo!
By Oleg Shchedrov
MOSCOW (*******) - The head of the Russian navy rang alarm bells Tuesday after being quoted saying one of the world's most powerful nuclear warships might be about to blow up.
******* Photo
But Admiral Vladimir Kuroyedov then denied making the comment and said he meant only that the Peter the Great, the pride of Moscow's Northern Fleet, was being poorly maintained.
Russian military analysts said the incident may have had less to do with an imminent danger than with rivalries among the top brass of a navy struggling to stay afloat on a budget that has been dramatically cut since its Cold War heyday.
Two major news agencies, Itar-Tass and Interfax, quoted Kuroyedov as saying he had ordered the nuclear-powered cruiser back to port and warning that "it may blow up any minute."
But some hours later, the admiral said he had been misquoted and the agencies' reports were "not true in any way."
"The ship's nuclear safety system is fully tested and meets all vital requirements," he told Tass in his later remarks.
"However, the state of the living quarters and the general state of the ship is unsatisfactory and fails to meet requirements set down by regulations."
He had given the crew two weeks to fix the problems. It was not clear where the ship was. Its home port is near Murmansk on Russia's Arctic coast, close to borders with Norway and Finland.
The 19,000-ton Kirov-class vessel has 20 cruise missiles that can be equipped with nuclear warheads.
Designed to challenge the U.S. Navy (news - web sites) in the Cold War and originally named the Yuri Andropov after the former Soviet leader, the Peter the Great -- or Pyotr Veliky -- spent years in the dockyard after the Soviet Union collapsed before being finally commissioned, despite concerns over its cost, in 1998.
PUTIN EMBARRASSED
Declared the Northern Fleet's model ship last year, it plays a key role in maneuvers in the North Atlantic and has often hosted visits by officials, including President Vladimir Putin (news - web sites).
Kommersant newspaper quoted naval sources saying Kuroyedov's decision to recall the ship was motivated by rivalries among admirals, including Kuroyedov and the ship's master, Admiral Vladimir Kasatonov, who is a bitter critic of the navy chief.
The Northern Fleet upset Putin last month when three missile tests failed during his pre-election visit to the scene of Russia's biggest war games in two decades.
The fleet also saw Russia's worst incident with a nuclear-powered vessel. The state-of-the-art submarine Kursk (news - web sites) sank with all hands in 2000, months after Putin was elected, creating public relations disaster for the new president.
But Tass quoted Sergei Perevoshchikov, technical director of the Northern Fleet's nuclear-powered vessels, as saying all vessels were fully maintained and reliable.
"The Kursk accident showed that even with such a powerful explosion on the ship, the reactor itself was undamaged," he was quoted as saying. "This is the best proof of its reliability."
I guess the fact that the ship had just completed a complete refit wouldn't give away the fact that it was probably in very good condition and if there was something wrong with the reactor it could be shut down and the ship could sail under steam power from the oil fired steam plant in the ship indefinitely.
But no, lets say stuff like:
Hey, where is the "russian Equipment is the best available" guy of this Forum now?
or:
So much for the 'pride' of the Russian Navy...
Obviously think seriously about things before they say anything... perhaps why they are so often right about things... :P :P :P :D ;) :D
Lots of people suggesting Russia equipment is rubbish here. And perhaps gloating a bit too soon...
Obviously think seriously about things before they say anything... perhaps why they are so often right about things... :P :P :P :D ;) :DEscho ne privykl k tomu?
mocking_loudly_died
03-24-2004, 05:42 AM
"The glorious pride of Russia shall not be tainted by a mere nuclear incident, for this was a brilliantly cunning plan of ours to have a random exploding navy - something the American dogs are jealous of" - Propaganda machine
"Mmm, interesting" - Mocking
"The glorious pride of Russia shall not be tainted by a mere nuclear incident, for this was a brilliantly cunning plan of ours to have a random exploding navy - something the American dogs are jealous of" - Propaganda machine
"Mmm, interesting" - MockingHmmmm let's assume You are the expert on nalal affairs and the Russian military propaganda/PR... Pls tell me what conclusion(s) You have drawn from all this "Petruschka affair". I am interesting in particular what can be concluded (according to Your expertise) out of this, concerning:
- the present technical status of Russian WMF,
- the present condition of the Russian WMF personnel and binding procedures,
- Your appraisal of the media coverage of this whole incident (who wanted to achieve what by saying this or that)...
Pls, don't hesitate - enlighten us... It's You who is an expert...
Backis
03-24-2004, 06:04 AM
Wether this is an actual problem with the ship, or a political affair, it pretty bad...
I don't know what is worse, problems with the ships or problems with the admirals. :(
mocking_loudly_died
03-24-2004, 06:05 AM
"The glorious pride of Russia shall not be tainted by a mere nuclear incident, for this was a brilliantly cunning plan of ours to have a random exploding navy - something the American dogs are jealous of" - Propaganda machine
"Mmm, interesting" - MockingHmmmm let's assume You are the expert on nalal affairs and the Russian military propaganda/PR... Pls tell me what conclusion(s) You have drawn from all this "Petruschka affair". I am interesting in particular what can be concluded (according to Your expertise) out of this, concerning:
- the present technical status of Russian WMF,
- the present condition of the Russian WMF personnel and binding procedures,
- Your appraisal of the media coverage of this whole incident (who wanted to achieve what by saying this or that)...
Pls, don't hesitate - enlighten us... It's You who is an expert...
No it's me taking the piss.
Christ.
ShadowNeo
03-24-2004, 06:06 AM
You sunk my battleship!
You sunk my battleship!Hehe :D You shouldn't scrap Your Vanguards so fast in first place... :lol: Big Brother still keeps his Iowas in mothball fleet...
No it's me taking the piss.
Christ.Good move... to take a piss when You don't know s*it about things You make comments about. So piss off con Dios, hermano.
mocking_loudly_died
03-24-2004, 06:34 AM
No it's me taking the piss.
Christ.Good move... to take a piss when You don't know s*it about things You make comments about. So piss off con Dios, hermano.
I just happen to have the plans of the ship b*tch.
http://www.killingsheep.com/images/russianboats.jpg
ShadowNeo
03-24-2004, 06:36 AM
LOL "Sir blows up alot" rofl
mocking_loudly_died
03-24-2004, 06:39 AM
LOL "Sir blows up alot" rofl
rofl
I don't think people have much sense of humor here; all the posturing that’s going on is in it self very amusing. ;)
ShadowNeo
03-24-2004, 06:46 AM
Wouldn't a more "Russian" name be something along the lines of, Vlad The Exploder? or Ivan The Combustionally Challenged?
mocking_loudly_died
03-24-2004, 06:50 AM
Wouldn't a more "Russian" name be something along the lines of, Vlad The Exploder? or Ivan The Combustionally Challenged?
I should change it to Ivan The Combustionally Challenged. :D
No it's me taking the piss.
Christ.Good move... to take a piss when You don't know s*it about things You make comments about. So piss off con Dios, hermano.
I just happen to have the plans of the ship b*tch.
http://www.killingsheep.com/images/russianboats.jpgB**tch...? Hmmm, You had to learn Your manners in a Manila harbor brothel... where You've apparently grown.
mocking_loudly_died
03-24-2004, 06:52 AM
Ummm nice come-back......(insert tumble weed).
You have been owned, do you see the light? - move towards it young man.
Didn't You both girls noticed that I am not Russian? I don't have any particular reason to like'em or their fllet... but simply don't like when the "land rats" make the stupid comments on things they don't know about... Navy is a complex and specific military branch, where even a people being opposite sides have a respect to each others... Ask Yank or Royal Navy servicemen... they may teach You some respect for the seamen no matter what flag they serve under.
BTW, who said here that USN or RN sucks...?
ShadowNeo
03-24-2004, 07:02 AM
People seemed to find it highly amusing when that French carrier's propeller fell off, seemed somewhat unfair that our Russian friends escape something simmilarly amusing.
mocking_loudly_died
03-24-2004, 07:04 AM
Didn't You both girls noticed that I am not Russian? I don't have any particular reason to like'em or their fllet... but simply don't like when the "land rats" make the stupid comments on things they don't know about... Navy is a complex and specific military branch, where even a people being opposite sides have a respect to each others... Ask Yank or Royal Navy servicemen... they may teach You some respect for the seamen no matter what flag they serve under.
BTW, who said here that USN or RN sucks...?
Like previously stated mate, I was being my normal forum self - a jokester.
If people are offended, no probs - make a pretty picture about Australia’s piss poor navy.
Issue solved, now I have a cup of tea brewing and when I come back I expect much giggling and retorts against my country.
:D
Mr Gently Benevolent
03-24-2004, 07:07 AM
I must admit that I have been on two vessels that had mishaps such as the rudder dropping of and the prop just shot of one morning in each case the vessel had just been serviced on the slipway. :lol:
People seemed to find it highly amusing when that French carrier's propeller fell off, seemed somewhat unfair that our Russian friends escape something simmilarly amusing.Well... in this particular case it might be amusing... because nothing really bad happened. Frenchies heve their navy (relatively) well financed... so I can see nothing bad in few jokes. It only could hurt some pride...
With Russian navy Servicemen problem is different... They are supposed to make miracles. Politicians cut their fundings and demand to keep the big fleet operational... I feel pity for them, because I know that they are top professionals with too few resources to meet the politicians' oversized expectations... Kursk affair was not about the people or vesssel, it was about money they badly lack to keep things going.
When You ask Russians "how are You doing" they will always answer You that all's well... that's the way they are trained... never bitch at Your mother, fleet or country to foreigners ... no matter what the truth is... no matter of what is the blood price they pay. Is it so hard to understand?
People seemed to find it highly amusing when that French carrier's propeller fell off, seemed somewhat unfair that our Russian friends escape something simmilarly amusing.Well... in this particular case it might be amusing... because nothing really bad happened. Frenchies heve their navy (relatively) well financed... so I can see nothing bad in few jokes. It only could hurt some pride...
With Russian navy Servicemen problem is different... They are supposed to make miracles. Politicians cut their fundings and demand to keep the big fleet operational... I feel pity for them, because I know that they are top professionals with too few resources to meet the politicians' oversized expectations... Kursk affair was not about the people or vesssel, it was about money they badly lack to keep things going.
When You ask Russians "how are You doing" they will always answer You that all's well... that's the way they are trained... never bitch at Your mother, fleet or country to foreigners ... no matter what the truth is... no matter of what is the blood price they pay. Is it so hard to understand?
Hey, we know the sailors propably can't help it because they just don't get the money...but it's just that all the Russians are still boasting about their 'incredible mighty army'... so it's not like they're not asking for it. :roll:
16 OBr SpN
03-24-2004, 07:40 AM
Hey, we know the sailors propably can't help it because they just don't get the money...but it's just that all the Russians are still boasting about their 'incredible mighty army'... so it's not like they're not asking for it. :roll:
Who's "all" Russians? What do you mean by "boasting"? Do you mean that "stand pround" thread, or something else?
If you ask me, I'll tell you that I have all reasons to be proud of our Army. It has absolutely nothing to do with the technology, nukes, etc.
What makes our Army great? The men behind it. ;)
Regards,
16 OBr SpN
Hey, we know the sailors propably can't help it because they just don't get the money...but it's just that all the Russians are still boasting about their 'incredible mighty army'... so it's not like they're not asking for it. :roll:
Who's "all" Russians? What do you mean by "boasting"? Do you mean that "stand pround" thread, or something else?
If you ask me, I'll tell you that I have all reasons to be proud of our Army. It has absolutely nothing to do with the technology, nukes, etc.
What makes our Army great? The men behind it. ;)
Regards,
16 OBr SpN
Well okay, not all Russians, you're a good exception, but when looking in the 'stand proud thread' you can't happen but look to the sky and mumble 'oh god...'. Sure, you can be proud of your army, just like most countries, but there's a difference between being proud of your army and going on the whole "we're the best", "we'll kick Europe's asses" crusade...
Hey, we know the sailors propably can't help it because they just don't get the money...but it's just that all the Russians are still boasting about their 'incredible mighty army'... so it's not like they're not asking for it. :roll:You know and they know that their Navy or Army is a still quite mighty ... shadow of it's former self. Hmmm ... in fact they even know that You know... , but never, ever expect them to admit that there is smth wrong. Russians well know how the things in military or navy should go... that's the thing You should be sure of... They may not be good at making the cheese or building the windmills, but military is a branch where they have knowledge, people and some technologies... What they lack is a balance between politicians' oversized expectations and the fundings they don't get in sufficient amounts from those politicians. Effect is they pay the blood price despite they know it would be unnecessary if the right money would be in place. They do their job, best they can. Their eventual faults may look worth mocking from outside, but from inside it's somentimes a mission impossible. When You mock them, they take it personally because foreigners usually tend not to discriminate between servicemen and politicians who are mostly to blame for the failures and unnecessary blood sacrifice...
Man, how I hate politucians.... :bash: .
Hey, we know the sailors propably can't help it because they just don't get the money...but it's just that all the Russians are still boasting about their 'incredible mighty army'... so it's not like they're not asking for it. :roll:You know and they know that their Navy or Army is a still quite mighty ... shadow of it's former self. Hmmm ... in fact they even know that You know... , but never, ever expect them to admit that there is smth wrong. Russians well know how the things in military or navy should go... that's the thing You should be sure of... They may not be good at making the cheese or building the windmills, but military is a branch where they have knowledge, people and some technologies... What they lack is a balance between politicians' oversized expectations and the fundings they don't get in sufficient amounts from those politicians. Effect is they pay the blood price despite they know it would be unnecessary if the right money would be in place. They do their job, best they can. Their eventual faults may look worth mocking from outside, but from inside it's somentimes a mission impossible. When You mock them, they take it personally because foreigners usually tend not to discriminate between servicemen and politicians who are mostly to blame for the failures and unnecessary blood sacrifice...
Man, how I hate politucians.... :bash: .
Dude, like I said, I'm not knocking the motivation of the men or anything... it's just that this reaction was kind of expected when only days before a big group of Russians goes on the whole "we'll kick Europes asses"-crusade... Sure, the Russian army is still powerfull, but don't expect miracles. Who's to blame for it is irrelevant. It's just that you shouldn't talk the talk when you can't walk the walk.
Dude, like I said, I'm not knocking the motivation of the men or anything... it's just that this reaction was kind of expected when only days before a big group of Russians goes on the whole "we'll kick Europes asses"-crusade... Sure, the Russian army is still powerfull, but don't expect miracles. Who's to blame for it is irrelevant. It's just that you shouldn't talk the talk when you can't walk the walk."we'll kick Europes asses"-crusade..... hmmmmm
If You feel that it is said seriously, You should call for EU military buildup against the Russian threat..., but If You feel that it's a sytlistic figure - sort of a self esteem defence mechanism... act accordingly...
I must say, that I see this "cocky" attitude of Russians here as a reaction for the many "westerners'" approach... Something as You've created this monster (didn't they Permskii? - You monster...) themselves. Fact is that You (we) don't quite understand Russians and their real problems... :roll:
16 OBr SpN
03-24-2004, 08:09 AM
You know and they know that their Navy or Army is a still quite mighty ... shadow of it's former self. Hmmm ... in fact they even know that You know... , but never, ever expect them to admit that there is smth wrong. Russians well know how the things in military or navy should go... that's the thing You should be sure of... They may not be good at making the cheese or building the windmills, but military is a branch where they have knowledge, people and some technologies... What they lack is a balance between politicians' oversized expectations and the fundings they don't get in sufficient amounts from those politicians. Effect is they pay the blood price despite they know it would be unnecessary if the right money would be in place. They do their job, best they can. Their eventual faults may look worth mocking from outside, but from inside it's somentimes a mission impossible. When You mock them, they take it personally because foreigners usually tend not to discriminate between servicemen and politicians who are mostly to blame for the failures and unnecessary blood sacrifice...
Man, how I hate politucians.... :bash: .
I completely agree with you on this matter.
The example of political bull**** vs. military, is seen in the example of our initial storming of Grozny. No sufficient planning was made because of politicians who pushed for a quick victory.
I know of 4 talented Generals from the General Staff who were either disranked or quit because they refused to obey the order.
Every war is a crime, but a poorly planned war is a double crime!
Regards,
16 OBr SpN
Dude, like I said, I'm not knocking the motivation of the men or anything... it's just that this reaction was kind of expected when only days before a big group of Russians goes on the whole "we'll kick Europes asses"-crusade... Sure, the Russian army is still powerfull, but don't expect miracles. Who's to blame for it is irrelevant. It's just that you shouldn't talk the talk when you can't walk the walk."we'll kick Europes asses"-crusade..... hmmmmm
If You feel that it is said seriously, You should call for EU military buildup against the Russian threat..., but If You feel that it's a sytlistic figure - sort of a self esteem defence mechanism... act accordingly...
I must say, that I see this "cocky" attitude of Russians here as a reaction for the many "westerners'" approach... Something as You've created this monster (didn't they Permskii? - You monster...) themselves. Fact is that You (we) don't quite understand Russians and their real problems... :roll:
Well hey, if they want to play it that way then no one should whine when we pay 'em back in the same currency...
Dude, like I said, I'm not knocking the motivation of the men or anything... it's just that this reaction was kind of expected when only days before a big group of Russians goes on the whole "we'll kick Europes asses"-crusade... Sure, the Russian army is still powerfull, but don't expect miracles. Who's to blame for it is irrelevant. It's just that you shouldn't talk the talk when you can't walk the walk."we'll kick Europes asses"-crusade..... hmmmmm
If You feel that it is said seriously, You should call for EU military buildup against the Russian threat..., but If You feel that it's a sytlistic figure - sort of a self esteem defence mechanism... act accordingly...
I must say, that I see this "cocky" attitude of Russians here as a reaction for the many "westerners'" approach... Something as You've created this monster (didn't they Permskii? - You monster...) themselves. Fact is that You (we) don't quite understand Russians and their real problems... :roll:
Well hey, if they want to play it that way then no one should whine when we pay 'em back in the same currency...I bet noone remembers who started that BS first... and consequently who is playing and who is paying back... It looks 2 me as an endless circle that I have no influence nor power to stop... All I can do is try to keep away... Anyone wants to join... :D ?
Yeah me... I never participated in any of those **** fights untill that rediculous 'stand proud' thread.
Yeah me... I never participated in any of those **** fights untill that rediculous 'stand proud' thread.Together we stand...
Nikolas
03-24-2004, 12:12 PM
Calm down
The old person does not want to retire (September, 30).
He wants to remain on a high post.
He tries to strike on the competitors.
And all history.
You seriously think, what to the dangerous ship could invite the president of the country and Minister of Defence?
What to understand, that all this information full delirium it is good enough to know a situation in fleet of Russia.
And news agencies were simply seized by sensation.
Calm down
The old person does not want to retire (September, 30).
He wants to remain on a high post.
He tries to strike on the competitors.
And all history.
You seriously think, what to the dangerous ship could invite the president of the country and Minister of Defence?
What to understand, that all this information full delirium it is good enough to know a situation in fleet of Russia.
And news agencies were simply seized by sensation.I don't quite get all the message...
- what is the Sept. 30?
- And all history. .... what history?
If I understood Your overall point well ... yes I agree it's just some kinda sick personal game that IMHO is quite unacceptable at such level and with use of such stupid means. One big fish against other big fish play the media game and the crew of the ship that few months ago was a best vessel in whole fleet gets foolish punishment.... well nobody knows what for... The whole crew has been treated as a scapegoats... to defend a sorry ass of the admiral whose speciality is to make optimistic statements as required by politicians.
Escho ne privykl k tomu?
This is an english language based forum. If you can't be bothered speaking in english to me then don't bother replying to my posts.
"The glorious pride of Russia shall not be tainted by a mere nuclear incident, for this was a brilliantly cunning plan of ours to have a random exploding navy - something the American dogs are jealous of" - Propaganda machine
Wow.. they said that on CNN!!!
Dude, like I said, I'm not knocking the motivation of the men or anything... it's just that this reaction was kind of expected when only days before a big group of Russians goes on the whole "we'll kick Europes asses"-crusade... .
You call it a "we'll kick Europes asses" crusade thread but it was just a list of the current systems and weapons in service or storage in Russia.
He ended his post with:
"What EUROPEAN COUNTRY SHOULD I COMPARE NOW.... this is fun"
ie an opportunity to compare equipment and numbers in armed forces.
He later said this:
"Looking at the lists I must say the only country that can give Russia a huge fight, and hurt us is USA. China comes close as well. The rest of the world must remember. Nobody can take Russia militarily.
With the list above, I think it should be enough for Europe to relax, and stop the flames. "
Then replies started to get more agressive with:
And 1 Finn is as good as 10 Russians and it only becoms a problem when the 11th comes.
Old classic saying, and so far the Ruskies has not done much to contradict that. I mean, if
one Chechen is as good as 5 Ruskies... oh well."
And then:
"well call me ignorant but isn't Russian stuff kinda old and outdated? I mean your comparing T72 and t90s to a Leo2a5 2a6 and a Challenger 2, and a Mig 29 and a Su 27 to Euro fighter etc you get the point."
In other words it was a "we got a lot of stuff" thread that changed into a "yeah but it is all crap" thread. Blaming the Russians is an excuse.
Hey, we know the sailors propably can't help it because they just don't get the money...but it's just that all the Russians are still boasting about their 'incredible mighty army'... so it's not like they're not asking for it.
And if you knew anything about the ship "Peter the Great" that they are talking about you probably wouldn't be so quick to say all Russian stuff is crap or laugh at them when things go wrong... Two space shuttles have blown up... and neither had anything to do with maintainence or lack of money... I guess it must just be crap.
Well hey, if they want to play it that way then no one should whine when we pay 'em back in the same currency...
So you are saying that you find it interesting when geniune discussions about the capabilities of various types of weapons degenerate into "if it is American then it must be crap" or "it is Russian so it must be crap... or a copy of a western system" type cesspool.
OK... you can gloat and make fun of Russia when sailors drown or suffocate slowly and we will laugh and make fun of those who threw themselves off the second WTC tower just after the first tower collapsed to escape the same fate that befell those in the first tower...
Apart from being really mature it makes for really interesting reading... shame that is all you are capable of. :(
You can probably blame lots of different people for starting it and justify continuing it. Perhaps that is too much human nature... why there are still so many wars going on around the place.
Kingpin
03-25-2004, 06:10 AM
Wow! First time i see GazB irritated ;)
Backis
03-25-2004, 06:27 AM
Escho ne privykl k tomu?
This is an english language based forum. If you can't be bothered speaking in english to me then don't bother replying to my posts.
"The glorious pride of Russia shall not be tainted by a mere nuclear incident, for this was a brilliantly cunning plan of ours to have a random exploding navy - something the American dogs are jealous of" - Propaganda machine
Wow.. they said that on CNN!!!
Dude, like I said, I'm not knocking the motivation of the men or anything... it's just that this reaction was kind of expected when only days before a big group of Russians goes on the whole "we'll kick Europes asses"-crusade... .
You call it a "we'll kick Europes asses" crusade thread but it was just a list of the current systems and weapons in service or storage in Russia.
He ended his post with:
"What EUROPEAN COUNTRY SHOULD I COMPARE NOW.... this is fun"
ie an opportunity to compare equipment and numbers in armed forces.
He later said this:
"Looking at the lists I must say the only country that can give Russia a huge fight, and hurt us is USA. China comes close as well. The rest of the world must remember. Nobody can take Russia militarily.
With the list above, I think it should be enough for Europe to relax, and stop the flames. "
Then replies started to get more agressive with:
And 1 Finn is as good as 10 Russians and it only becoms a problem when the 11th comes.
Old classic saying, and so far the Ruskies has not done much to contradict that. I mean, if
one Chechen is as good as 5 Ruskies... oh well."
And then:
"well call me ignorant but isn't Russian stuff kinda old and outdated? I mean your comparing T72 and t90s to a Leo2a5 2a6 and a Challenger 2, and a Mig 29 and a Su 27 to Euro fighter etc you get the point."
In other words it was a "we got a lot of stuff" thread that changed into a "yeah but it is all crap" thread. Blaming the Russians is an excuse.
Hey, we know the sailors propably can't help it because they just don't get the money...but it's just that all the Russians are still boasting about their 'incredible mighty army'... so it's not like they're not asking for it.
And if you knew anything about the ship "Peter the Great" that they are talking about you probably wouldn't be so quick to say all Russian stuff is crap or laugh at them when things go wrong... Two space shuttles have blown up... and neither had anything to do with maintainence or lack of money... I guess it must just be crap.
Well hey, if they want to play it that way then no one should whine when we pay 'em back in the same currency...
So you are saying that you find it interesting when geniune discussions about the capabilities of various types of weapons degenerate into "if it is American then it must be crap" or "it is Russian so it must be crap... or a copy of a western system" type cesspool.
OK... you can gloat and make fun of Russia when sailors drown or suffocate slowly and we will laugh and make fun of those who threw themselves off the second WTC tower just after the first tower collapsed to escape the same fate that befell those in the first tower...
Apart from being really mature it makes for really interesting reading... shame that is all you are capable of. :(
You can probably blame lots of different people for starting it and justify continuing it. Perhaps that is too much human nature... why there are still so many wars going on around the place.
Either you are dishonest about this or you need to reread the thread. Pokey repeadetly jabbed his trolling stick into that thread before the retorts started...
Pokey IS a troll regardless of the pictures he post or the reason he started behaving as he does.
Nevermind, flaming doesn't give others flamers just cause. Its better to ignore them or just point out flaws in facts or logic of the case as presented.
mocking_loudly_died
03-25-2004, 06:30 AM
Man, this thread is old now.
Lets talk about ****s.
Backis
03-25-2004, 06:37 AM
Yeah!
Military****Sphotos!!! :lol:
Yeah!
Military****Sphotos!!! :lol:AFAiK military ****s photos are forbidden here...
http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2004/02/06/iraq/main598585.shtml
Alleged Iraq *** Assaults Eyed
WASHINGTON, Feb. 6, 2004
In the memo, dated Thursday, Rumsfeld ordered a review of military procedures for medical care for ****** assault victims, as well as a way to guarantee privacy of victims who report assaults in a combat area.
(CBS/AP) Defense Secretary Donald H. Rumsfeld has ordered an investigation into the treatment of servicewomen in the Gulf war zone who report ****** assaults by their male comrades-in-arms, the Pentagon said Friday.
"I am concerned about recent reports regarding allegations of ****** assaults on service members deployed to Iraq and Kuwait," Rumsfeld wrote in a memo to David Chu, the Pentagon's undersecretary for personnel and readiness.
"****** assault will not be tolerated in the Department of Defense."
In the memo, dated Thursday, Rumsfeld ordered a review of military procedures for medical care for ****** assault victims, as well as a way to guarantee privacy of victims who report assaults in a combat area.
The military has reports of about dozen such incidents, but at least 38 have been reported to civilian rape crisis centers, reports CBS News Anchor Dan Rather.
A defense official, who made the memo available to reporters, said the memo came in response to media reports about ****** assaults in the region, specifically a Jan. 25 story by The Denver Post. The Post cited officials with the Miles Foundation, a Connecticut-based organization that helps victims of ****** or family violence who are connected to the military.
The 38 women have told the foundation they were assaulted by fellow military personnel while in Iraq or Kuwait during the last year, said Christine Hansen, the organization's executive director. Several said they did not receive thorough medical care, access to chaplains and lawyers or information on their rights, Hansen said in a telephone interview.
Only 11 of the women had reported the ****** attacks to military authorities, Hansen said. Many said they were afraid of retribution for reporting the incidents, she said, and some who did complain received unfavorable changes in their jobs or locations.
Another woman working with the foundation reported being raped while serving in the Iraq-Kuwait region, but she did not know if it was by a member of the U.S. military or someone else. She also reported being assaulted to military authorities.
The 38 women comprise a mix of officers and enlisted personnel, Hansen said, with some from all four service branches: Army, Navy, Air Force and Marines. Some of the alleged assaults took place at established bases, others at austere forward posts in combat areas.
Some of the women told the foundation they were not examined for exposure to ******ly transmitted diseases or given pregnancy tests, Hansen said.
"From our perspective, the common threads do demonstrate there is a pattern," she said. "I think the pattern is not limited to one service."
According to defense officials, 59,000 military women served within the region managed by U.S. Central Command, which includes Iraq, Kuwait and Afghanistan, between October 2002 and November 2003. Most were in Iraq and Kuwait.
The defense official said the Army has had 80 reports of ****** misconduct in the Central Command region during the past year. Another defense official said four are being treated as rape cases.
The Air Force recorded seven ****** misconduct cases in the region, the Marines one of ****** assault. Despite Navy cases reported to the Miles Foundation, naval officers said they have had no reports.
Few of the allegations have been reported publicly. In November, a military official acknowledged that a female soldier reported she was raped at a desert post in Kuwait where her unit was preparing for its mission in Iraq. The outcome of that case is unclear.
The military has experienced problems with ****** assaults in the United States. Last year, Air Force Secretary James G. Roche purged the top echelon of officers at the Air Force Academy and instituted sweeping changes amid allegations that officers ignored complaints of rape or ****** assault.
A subsequent investigation documented 142 reported attacks at the academy in the prior decade.
----------------------
Israeli army gang-bang
Israel – Two male soldiers and a female soldier were given jail sentences after being caught in the act instead of at their posts.
The three-way *** session was reported by Yediot Aharonot newspaper.
The secretive unnamed army base, which stores weapons to guard against nuclear, chemical and biological attacks, reported no other incidents and no danger to the general public despite guards having their pants down.
----------------------
The Russian armed forces is among the most male-dominated of institutions and perhaps the one most closely associated with masculinity, embedded in a society which is characterised by very traditional attitudes about the suitability of different roles for men and women. Although the evasion of conscription is a substantial and growing problem, one of the surveys cited above demonstrated that a significant proportion of young Russian men still regard service in the armed forces as a step on the road to real manhood. There is considerable contempt in military circles for those young men who have no desire to serve in the armed forces, as this statement by the chief of the military department of the Herzen Russian State Pedagogical University in Saint Petersburg demonstrates:
`... military service in Russia for today's feminised men is becoming
burdensome, unprestigious and even loathsome. Already an entire generation has grown up of good little boys, who prefer toy machine guns to real Kaleshnikovs'(42)
It is not surprising, then, that the entry of large numbers of women soldiers into the Russian military has not been welcomed wholeheartedly by many officers and officials of the Ministry of Defence. Although the author has not found any openly censorious or scathing remarks about servicewomen in the military press, most of the (male) officers who write about the presence of women soldiers in the Russian armed forces are openly ambivalent. On the one hand, most recognise and accept the fact that the Russian military needs women soldiers to fill the gaping holes in its ranks. The number of women in the armed forces furthermore is likely to increase in the foreseeable future, given the public pledge by Boris Yeltsin to phase out conscription entirely by 2005.(43) As Western countries have discovered, it is very difficult to have a volunteer army without the participation of a substantial number of women.(44) On the other hand, few Russian officers who have written about this issue in the military press express enthusiasm for the presence of women soldiers.
Thus far the author has not found any references to women soldiers subjected to the cruel and dangerous practice of institutionalised bullying, or dedovshchina, which conscripts are known to suffer. If women are not subjected to dedovshchina, it may be because it is a ritual associated with conscripts (in which the most senior conscripts inflict humiliation on the most junior). There are, however, numerous reports in the Russian military press of women soldiers being subjected to more or less serious forms of ****** harrassment. Most references to the harrassment of servicewomen are brief, and suggest that the incidents are petty annoyances. One of the surveys cited above found that one-quarter of the women soldiers questioned reported that they had been on the receiving end of `some form of incorrect behavior [such as] rudeness, ambiguous remarks, and so on'(38) In an interview published in the journal Armiya, a woman soldier in the Air Defence Forces remarked that some commanders would go to any lengths to prevent women from joining their units, and that `boorish male behaviour' was the single factor which made military service most difficult for her.(39) Evidence of more serious forms of harrassment can be found in the initiation of criminal charges `in connection to ****** transgressions in relation to women soldiers' in 3 military districts during 1997.(40) It is likely that the ****** harrassment of women soldiers in the Russian military is far more extensive than the small number of charges which have so far been made would indicate. An anonymous survey conducted in the Northern Fleet in 1997 found that 21% of the servicewomen who responded reported suffering some kind of ****** harrassment from their peers or superiors.(41)
excerpts from http://www.findarticles.com/cf_dls/m0EXI/2000_Fall-Winter/73063469/p1/article.jhtml?term=
tony6
03-25-2004, 10:05 AM
GazB:
I didn't wknow there were so many commies in New Zealand :D
RomanS
03-25-2004, 12:52 PM
GazB:
I didn't wknow there were so many commies in New Zealand :D
hilarious !
HELEX
03-25-2004, 01:02 PM
Well, I think the main reason for this Flamewars here are statements like "It is the best in the World". For example when maybe PermskiiOMON says the Dragunov is a really good sniper rifle, I have no Problem with that I like it too. But when he says it is the BEST, it is Bull****.
Same thing with the threads stating russian Equipment and Army is the BEST.
So maybe we can stop "BEST" threads?
RomanS
03-25-2004, 01:41 PM
Well, I think the main reason for this Flamewars here are statements like "It is the best in the World". For example when maybe PermskiiOMON says the Dragunov is a really good sniper rifle, I have no Problem with that I like it too. But when he says it is the BEST, it is Bull****.
Same thing with the threads stating russian Equipment and Army is the BEST.
So maybe we can stop "BEST" threads?
f u c k You Helex
go read your other **** first
Russian Texan
03-25-2004, 01:45 PM
go read your other **** first
I concur.
Guttorm
03-25-2004, 02:08 PM
Actually, theres a story (Not sure if it's true, or just urban legend, probably the latter, but still funny) about how a Norwegian coastguard vessel once fired on Peter the great... :)
The story goes, the CGV (Coastguard vessel) was performing a Gunnery exercise, but the main Radar was currently undergoing maintenece, so they only used the navigation radar.
The CO was currently not on the bridge, and the XO did the performed the GunEX.
After awhile, the VHF started crackeling and someone said something in Russian. The XO Replied "This is Norwegian Coast Guard, please say again in English"
The reply was: THIS IS RUSSIAN WARSHIP "PETER THE GREAT", WHY ARE YOU FIREING AT ME!!!?"
Off course, the shots never hit the russian ship, but I'm guesing that was one nervous XO, fireing in the general direction of the worlds largest military ship... And also one of the most heavily armed ones...
Just to add, I'm a great fan of the Kirov class (It will ALWAYS be the Kirov class for me :) ), I spent MANY hours in the OPSroom of different Norwegian navy ships, reading about them in JANES...
It's sad to hear about poor maintenece abord such a great ship.
RomanS
03-25-2004, 02:12 PM
Actually, theres a story (Not sure if it's true, or just urban legend, probably the latter, but still funny) about how a Norwegian coastguard vessel once fired on Peter the great... :)
The story goes, the CGV (Coastguard vessel) was performing a Gunnery exercise, but the main Radar was currently undergoing maintenece, so they only used the navigation radar.
The CO was currently not on the bridge, and the XO did the performed the GunEX.
After awhile, the VHF started crackeling and someone said something in Russian. The XO Replied "This is Norwegian Coast Guard, please say again in English"
The reply was: THIS IS RUSSIAN WARSHIP "PETER THE GREAT", WHY ARE YOU FIREING AT ME!!!?"
Off course, the shots never hit the russian ship, but I'm guesing that was one nervous XO, fireing in the general direction of the worlds largest military ship... And also one of the most heavily armed ones...
Just to add, I'm a great fan of the Kirov class (It will ALWAYS be the Kirov class for me :) ), I spent MANY hours in the OPSroom of different Norwegian navy ships, reading about them in JANES...
It's sad to hear about poor maintenece abord such a great ship.
Its a matter of time my friend. Putin will bring Russia out of Yeltsin's fu ck ups. We will be as great as USA once again in power soon!
Backis
03-25-2004, 02:26 PM
Off course, the shots never hit the russian ship, but I'm guesing that was one nervous XO, fireing in the general direction of the worlds largest military ship... And also one of the most heavily armed ones...
While I agree Big Pete is really, really big, there are a "couple" of carriers around thats larger (Admiral Kuznetzov amongst them, so this is no anti-Russian comment... :P ). ;)
Do you perhaps mean surface combatant, not "military ship"? Not so sure that term wouldn't include a carrier like Kuznetzov though... heavy missile complement and all...
intelligenzija
03-25-2004, 02:32 PM
Its a matter of time my friend. Putin will bring Russia out of Yeltsin's fu ck ups. We will be as great as USA once again in power soon!
Not as great as USA. In my opinion the Russians have to suffer to be satisfied. Do you think the novyye russkie are real russians? they betray their country.
It will take some time... till Russia is great(again)
(hope you understand what i mean permskii)
Its a matter of time my friend. Putin will bring Russia out of Yeltsin's fu ck ups. We will be as great as USA once again in power soon! We will see... First task: will he get rid of Kuroedov or not? So far the guy didn't help much Putin to do so... All he seems to do is to make a stupid statements and lots of intrigues... Grigoriy Pasko (journalist, expert on navy affairs, accused of espionage while investigating the nuclear vessels utilization) in his interview given to Polish newspaper GW; says that Kuroedov has never commanded anything bigger than a minesweeper... so he rather is not a person who has a good service backlog to be a CIC. Kuroedov has publicly made a accusation that commander of Peter Velikiy has hanged the Putin's portrait only on one nail at the Command Bridge... :cantbeli: Typical reaction of the navy professional... huh? Two nails would cause the portrait not to swing at waves.
I am curious if "Mr all is well" will be fired by Putin or not... if not it can only mean that Putin needs no professsional at the WMF CIC post.... but a "Comical Volodia"... specialist on giving the optimistic statements to the press.
Pasko has also made comments on the Petr Velikiy, saying that this "great soviet dinosaur" is too big, not very well designed and dangerous for his own 727 men crew.
Guttorm
03-26-2004, 04:27 AM
While I agree Big Pete is really, really big, there are a "couple" of carriers around thats larger (Admiral Kuznetzov amongst them, so this is no anti-Russian comment... :P ). ;)
Do you perhaps mean surface combatant, not "military ship"? Not so sure that term wouldn't include a carrier like Kuznetzov though... heavy missile complement and all...
A sorry, my mistake, off course I meant surface combatant... :) :hug:
GazB:
I didn't wknow there were so many commies in New Zealand
What does that mean?
I really don't get it?
Do I need to be a commie to understand that a ship that has just undergone a full refit would be rather less likely to explode than perhaps one that had never had a refit, or perhaps the fact that the ship in question is dual powered and could easily sail with the nuclear reactor shut down operating under oil fired boiler power for tens of thousands of kilometers with zero chance of a reactor problem...
Even if that does make me a commie, and I don't see how it does, how many commies does that make for New Zealand? 1?
But when he says it is the BEST, it is Bull****.
So what are you saying.. he can like a weapon but he can't say it is the best? I have been here a little while and I must say that those putting up stupid "what is the best helo/tank/rifle" etc etc have not all been Pro Russian. In fact most of them haven't included Russian equipment in the initial lists to vote on.
Same thing with the threads stating russian Equipment and Army is the BEST.
So maybe we can stop "BEST" threads?
I think you will find everyone thinks their own system is the best or their own military is the best. What this has to do with stopping flame wars is beyond me. You think the next accident that kills some Russians or some Americans will fix things or result in a stupid thread like this one?
It's sad to hear about poor maintenece abord such a great ship.
The maintainence is fine, it has just been through a refit and is in top order.
A sorry, my mistake, off course I meant surface combatant...
Techically she and her class are the largest non carrier warships made since WWII.
I think you will find everyone thinks their own system is the best or their own military is the best. What this has to do with stopping flame wars is beyond me. You think the next accident that kills some Russians or some Americans will fix things or result in a stupid thread like this one?
That is like sooo untrue. The more money a country puts in the military per capita, the more moral leper that government is, though.
martinexsquaddie
03-28-2004, 02:04 AM
well at least the russian navy won't be sinking any british trawlers with that boat a fine glorious naval victory in 1906 rofl :roll:
Mr Gently Benevolent
03-28-2004, 07:06 AM
well at least the russian navy won't be sinking any british trawlers with that boat a fine glorious naval victory in 1906 rofl :roll:
They thought they were engaging the imperial Japanese navy in the middle of the North Sea, and when they finally arrived in Asian waters they were routed by the real Japanese fleet. :lol:
Backis
03-28-2004, 07:28 AM
They thought they were engaging the imperial Japanese navy in the middle of the North Sea, and when they finally arrived in Asian waters they were routed by the real Japanese fleet. :lol:
My fav moments;
Painting the funnels with a bright yellow stripe because the admiral thought "it looked nice"...
And;
Using a torpedoboat destroyer tugging an old merchantman target, the entire fleet enfiladed training its gunnery, all missing the merchantman but hitting and sinking the destroyer...
:cantbeli:
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