Questions on the CAR-15 Sniper Rifle

[Ghostcom]

I was watching Blackhawk Down the other day, and have read a few books on the subject....and it got me to thinking:

The Sniper Weapon that MSGT Gary Gordon used on Oct 3, 1993 as been called a CAR-15 sniper rifle in several books and when Mike Durant fired it after Gordon's death, he stated it was on tri-burst. In the 2001 movie, the actor playing Gordon used a camo-painted CAR-15 with a Aimpoint Red Dot scope, a sound suppressor and a flashlight, is this similar to what Gordon really used? I know that DELTA custom builds a number of their weapons inhouse or by arms companies, so was the CAR-15 sniper rifle a custom job and none others existed? Was the "CAR-15 Sniper rifle" really a M-16A2 that was used by Gordon? (I know that CAR-15 is not the real name of the M-16A2 carbines used in the Mog in 92-93, but I am using it as a general term here)

What is the story behind the CAR-15 Sniper rifle used by MSGT Gary Gordon? Was the rifle the inbetween M-16 based sniper rifle prior to the SPR/SR-25 project? Is the Gordon-Sniper rifle not really a sniper rifle, but an assault rifle with fancy junk on it?

Thanks!

[Beckett]

they wearnt being used in the sniper role you normaly think of. they were flying around in choppers shooting at many targets at less then long range. his rifle was probably just his normal CAR15 no diffrent from the guys running around on the ground bustin doors.

[LaoSexMachine]

And Hoot is not real.

[taekwonno]

What?! Hoot wasn't real????

What about Sanderson!!!??? And Grimes!!!???

Surely they were real too!

[LaoSexMachine]

Here we go again. I don't know about the other two but Hoot was a Hollywood creation.

[Ghostcom]

Yeah, most of the DELTA Operators, expect for Shugart and Gordon, were characters taken from real operators.
The one thing I dislike about BHD was the fact that the Navy SEALs and the Airforce PJs were not shown really or given any differences from the DELTA operators. Only Todd Wilkinson is even mentioned in the film.

Grimes is a basiclly Specialist Stebbins from the BHD book

Hoot is basiclly Howe from the BHD book

Sanderson is not a real character but rather madeup from several DELTA operators.

Thanks for the infor....I cam across some photos on BHD1993.com for some SEAL snipers using some sort of M-16/CAR-15 Sniper rifle. The pics are too small to make much out though.:cantbeli:

[Crewdog]

Grimes was not real... his name was changed though some of the actions were indeed real enough. The real guy his name escapes me at the moment did a stint at Ft. Levenworth for child molestation. Not exactly someone you want to turn into a hero on the big screen.

[Ravage]

See, there is a mistake in the movie. It was Garry who had the M-14\M-21 (and no, he did not have a Aimpoint, but a scope) and Randy had a CAR-15 (or so I've heard, correct me if I'm wrong).
BUT !
Did Randys\Gordons CAR-15 really had a silencer ? and did he have a Aimpoint ?
I've heard he had a scope, not a Aimpoint.

[Crewdog]

oops double post

[kuneho]

Regarding question about the CAR-15. Let's just leave it at that. It's a CAR-15.
Delta or no Delta. Existing person or made up. Let's leave it at that.

There exists dedicated BHD, Somalia 93, whatever forums. Easy to find once you get addicted to search the truth. You'll get the same response.

Aimpoint this, aimpoint that. Long silencer, etc. You'll argue you saw "this" inthe movie or in the book. But it's a movie, it's a book. There is artistic license. A lot is made up. We weren't there. Those who were didn't really care what weapon, gear, equipment they got. They prefer to not talk about it. Don't even say you're designing a video game.

BHD topics never become stickies that's why they seem to "pop up" once in a while. Hope this helps.

[Ravage]

Yeach, but still you haven't answered my question :D

[Hollis]

the word sniper is misused all to often, There probably more DMs than Snipers, but the average civie does not know the difference.

[Ravage]

The Army says they were snipers

[Beckett]

they probably were sniper trained, doesnt mean they were sniping in that mission. you think they were out there running around in ghillie suits and a bolt action long gun? they were providing cover out of the chopper, not taking a 900 yard shot out of a hide.

[SMGLee]

Does it matter what they carried, wore or shot? are you trying to do an repro with your Arisoft gear? or you just wondering what they carried.. not too many on this site will know exact what transpired that faithful day, but we can be sure of one thing......

They are heros in very sense and they are the best we as America has to offer. everytime their names are mentioned, the hair on my neck stands up with respect and admiaration. they are a breed apart, they are HEROS.

[Ravage]

Wait a minute, I'm not a damn airsoft maniac ......
I just wan't to know the truth

[SMGLee]

Wait a minute, I'm not a damn airsoft maniac ......
I just wan't to know the truth

how is that going to help you? the truth is out there.....:)

[Ravage]

You're Fox Mulder now ;)

[Ghostcom]

well, this topic got hot!:|

The reason that I want to know, is because I love gear and what a man carries into battle (especially when they have a choice, like DELTA) is important to what kind of man were they.

The truth is that I am a MILSIM Paintballer and my PB marker is a copy of the Gary Gordon CAR-15 Sniper Rifle in BHD the movie. I just wanted to know if what the history of the weapon was or in what form it really existed as especially on 10/3-4/93.

Now, MSGT Randy Shugart carried an M-14 (that is fact) and MSGT Gary Gordon carried an CAR-15/M-16A2 Sniper weapon of some sort. The DELTA Operators in the MOG did equip their weapons with an early version of the Aimpoint scope....there are photos that I have seen on this very website that shows that.

I doubt that the Gordon and Shugart used the Red Dot scope on their weapons, they would not serve the purpose when sharpshooting from a Blackhawk helicopter...I have an copy of the Aimpoint scope and it is good for normal conditons, but I use a 4x scope for sniping.

I personally believe the BHD movie more than most war films, because the film had a number of the actaully people who were there on the set and could direct the props to be more lifelike...they did make mistakes with the vests and a few odds and ends, but for the most part....I think BHD is a good example of the gear used on that day.

Gordon and Shugart are two of the bravest men that I have read about and I use them as role models....may what ever god there is honor those men in the afterlife.

[kuneho]

Here's what I know based on Aimpoint's website and 1993. The aimpoints back then were longer and needed 2 scope rings to be mounted on a rail. But of course, we know the special guys usually get first dibs on what's new and what's hot. It may or may not have been a long aimpoint style. www.aimpoint.com check their products section. Somewhere in the archives.

Things that lead me to believe the Delta used the long aimpoints is that some other US guys in there photographed using them.

As for the long suppressors, only thing I can think of is the OPS brand.

Study pics. Some were copywritten, who knows if it ever expires.

http://www.smugmug.com/photos/45342286-L.jpg


My analysis on the aimpoint:
http://www.smugmug.com/photos/45342288-L.jpg

My analysis on the suppressors, scopes with my captions:
http://www.smugmug.com/photos/45342289-L.jpg
http://www.smugmug.com/photos/45342291-L.jpg

Remember, these don't necessarily mean the guys are Delta. They are indeed US.

http://www.smugmug.com/photos/45342295-L.jpg
http://www.smugmug.com/photos/54559703-L.jpg

After lots of time on this, you'll realize there's so much debate on what is an M4, M733, Aimpoint, or what not. Too many numeral designations exist. Who had the flat top back then, how they got it, maybe they're elite so they got the latest gear. So on. I know this is all about not forgetting what happened, and never to let it happen again. Whether you're a military buff, hobbyist, or just plain curious...we just weren't there and those who were prefer to only talk about it amongst themselves. We are outsiders.

[deagle]

they probably were sniper trained, doesnt mean they were sniping in that mission. you think they were out there running around in ghillie suits and a bolt action long gun? they were providing cover out of the chopper, not taking a 900 yard shot out of a hide.


ghillie suits don't define snipers, as "sniper" has different meanings. I think a "sharpshooter" as non-cammo'ed up and gearing up to take a precise shot (ala police snipers). "Sniper" to me means that they can just as well wait on a roof with no camo and waiting for the shot .... AS WELL AS .... hiding in the brush. IN sum, "sniper" has an added ability to hide and recon, while "sharpshooter" technically means 1-dimensional (precision shot). THats how i personally break it down. But of course, everyone has their own opinion.

SO to respond to the above quote, just because they weren't in ghillies, does't mean they weren't "snipers".

[deagle]

DELTA is so so elite that they get their gear 5 yrs into the FUTURE !! LoL

[Beckett]

ya i hear ya man i was just trying to say i doubt they were sniping in the traditional sense of the word.....ghillie suits, low crawls and 800 yard shots.;-)

[Ravage]

SFC Shughart, not MSG. There is a difference in rank you know.

[thatguy96]

Here's some easy to make conclusions. The Aimpoint in the movie is wrong for the time period. Its essentially a Comp M/L/Comp M/L2/M68 CCO type. The XM68 doesn't even enter official Army nomenclature until 1996. All the pictures from the period show earlier aimpoint models, like the Aimpoint 3000 IIRC (which even if I got the name wrong the type I'm thinking about was very popular with USN SEALs during the 80s and early 90s). If the weapon had a "red dot" it would've been an earlier type regardless. Also, an actual scope might have been used.

The issue of sound suppressors, well they were known to be used and from pictures appear to be relatively bulky reflex types that slipped over the barrel of the weapon. There are pictures of M14/M21s and M16 types with the things.

The issue of the weapon system is easy and complicated at the same time. It is almost 100% likely that the system was non-standard, whether it was a COTS purchase or an amalgamation of parts from some armory somewhere might never been known. Lastly, STOP USING THE TERM CAR-15 for these things. Here's why. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/CAR-15)

[Ghostcom]

I knew the term CAR-15 would rise someone's flag...!

I use the term losely on this post....the terms for the shorten M-16 carbine are many and many and the term CAR-15 seems to be a catch all.

sorry about that.

[Beckett]

The guy is just making a clone paintball gun i think we can throw some broad terms around here.....red dot, CAR15, maybe some sort of suppressor.i think ill stick to using CAR15 as well i dont fee like getting into a debate about the propper names and what year only had 3 round burst;-)

[D.E. Watters]

All the pictures from the period show earlier aimpoint models, like the Aimpoint 3000 IIRC (which even if I got the name wrong the type I'm thinking about was very popular with USN SEALs during the 80s and early 90s).

The Aimpoint 3000 is a good guess; however, the Aimpoint 5000 was also out by then. I bought one of the latter in either late '92 / early '93 for use in IPSC matches.

[akd]

The reason that I want to know, is because I love gear and what a man carries into battle (especially when they have a choice, like DELTA) is important to what kind of man were they.

Hey, there's a philosophy for life. The gear makes the man. Your not pirate if you ain't got a parrot. Arr!

[Mountain Man]

Lastly, STOP USING THE TERM CAR-15 for these things. Here's why. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/CAR-15)

I was thinking the same thing lol