If the M-16/M-4 had to be replaced right now..... [Archive]

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jetsetter

06-25-2006, 12:38 AM

I created this thread so we could submit our opinions on this envisioned situation. What if the US Army had to replace the M-16/M-4 right now? I want to hear your opinions on what rifles could be choosen and why that rifle is the best. Some rules should apply however. First, the rifle can't be based on the M-16/M-4(yes to the AR-18). Second, it has to be able to be produced now(no mockups or rifles that have to be developed). Third, rifles that have been phased out are ok. Try to post a picture or some info about the rifle. Lets have a discussion. Here is my submission.

Heckler & Koch G3 rifle
http://www.investmentgradefirearms.com/images/g3kand91.jpg
Caliber: 7.62mm NATO (.308 win)
Action: Roller-delayed blowback
Weight: 4.5kg
Overall length: 1023 mm
Barrel length: 450 mm (315 mm on G3KA4 model)
Magazine capacity: 20 rounds

During the early- to mid-1950s West Germany, like the other NATO countries, faced the need for rearming its army for the newest common 7.62x51mm NATO caliber small arms. Initially Germans preferred the Belgian FN FAL rifle, and adopted it circa 1956 under the designation of G1. Due to obvious reasons Germany wanted to manufacture its military rifles, and attempted to buy a manufacturing license for FAL, but Belgium rejected the deal. So, Germany turned to the another design, available from Spanish company CETME, and known as the CETME mod. A rifle. Germany bought the manufacturing license for CETME rifle and transferred it to the Heckler und Koch (HK) company, located in Oberndorf. HK slightly modified the CETME design, and in 1959 the Bundeswehr (W.Germany Army) finally adopted the CETME / Heckler - Koch rifle as G3 (Gewehr 3 - Rifle, [model] 3). Since that time and until the 1995 the G3 in various modifications served as a general issue shoulder weapon not only for German Armed forces, but also for many other countries. Those include Greece, Iran, Mexico, Norway, Pakistan, Portugal, Sweden, Turkey and many other countries. Total of more than 50 countries during the last 40 years issued the G3 to its forces. The G3 was or still is manufactured in countries like the Greece, Pakistan, Iran, Turkey, Portugal and others. The key reason of high popularity of the G3 is that it is much simpler and cheaper to manufacture, than its major contemporary rivals - Belgian FN FAL and US M14. To the best of my knowledge, the HK itself continued to produce and offer the G3 until the year 2000 or 2001, when it finally disappeared from HK catalogs and web-sites. However, the HK still manufactures a wide variety of firearms, based on the G3 design but of different purposes and calibers, like 9mm MP-5 submachine guns, 5.56mm HK 33 assault rifles, 5.56mm and 7.62mm HK 23 and HK 21 machine guns, PSG1 sniper rifles etc. In general, the HK G3 rifle can be described as one of the best 7.62mm NATO battle / assault rifles - reliable, versatile, controllable, non-expensive and, finally, very popular. For the civilian markets, HK produced the semi-automatic only versions of the G3, initially known as HK 41 and later - as HK 91.

The G3 rifle is a selective fire, magazine fed rifle, built using delayed blowback action, developed by German engineers at Mauser Werke late in the 2nd World War and refined in Spain, at the CETME company. Initial models of the G3 rifle were quite similar to CETME rifles, and even had "CETME" markings on the receivers (until 1961 or so). The roller-delayed blowback action is described under the CETME Rifles, so I will not repeat it here. The G3 is built using as many stamped parts as possible. The receiver is stamped from sheet steel. The trigger unit housing along with pistol handle frame, also are stamped from steel and hinged to the receiver using the cross-pin in the front of the trigger unit, just behind the magazine housing. Earliest G3 rifles also featured stamped handguards and CETME-type flip-up rear diopter sights. In the mid-1960s the initial design was upgraded to the G3A3 and G3A4 configurations. These rifles had ventilated plastic handguards and a drum-type rear diopter sights, marked from 100 to 400 meters. The G3A3 was a fixed butt version, with buttstock made from plastic, and the G3A4 was a telescope butt version, with retractable metallic buttstock with rubber buttplate. Late German production G3A3 and G3A4 models were built using new trigger units, integral with restyled pistol grip and triggerguard, made from plastic. The shortest version of the G3 was the G3KA4, similar to G3A4 but with shortened barrel. Every G3 rifle can be equipped with detachable bipods, claw-type detachable scope mounts. Long-barreled versions can be fitted with bayonet or used to launch rifle grenades from the barrel. Folding cocking handle is located on the special tube above the barrel, at the left side, and does not reciprocate when gun is fired. The safety / fire selector is located above the triggerguard on the left side of the trigger group housing and usually is marked "S - E - F" (Safe - Single shots - Full auto). Latest models could have selectors marked with colored icons.

http://world.guns.ru/assault/as12-e.htm

Yes a bit heavy but it is a rugged, powerful, and proven design. It can be produced now and in large numbers if needed.

yiorgo

06-25-2006, 12:44 AM

AK47 since we cant do an HK416 or SCAR L in 6.8

jetsetter

06-25-2006, 12:51 AM

First, the rifle can't be based on the M-16/M-4(yes to the AR-18).

The FN SCAR does seems like a good weapon. FN has a good reputation. I would go with the the Mk.17 SCAR-H however in 7.62mm.

Mk.17 SCAR-H
http://www.sg.hu/kep/2005_03/sg9_11.jpg
Mk.16 SCAR-L (Light) Mk.17 SCAR-H (Heavy)
Caliber 5.56x45 NATO 7.62x51 NATO basic
7.62x39 M43 and others additionally
Overall length, standard configuration 850 mm (max) / 620 mm (min) 997 mm (max) / 770 mm (min)
Barrel length n/a n/a
Weight 3.5 kg empty 3.86 kg empty
Rate of fire 600 rounds per minute 600 rounds per minute
Magazine capacity 30 rounds standard 20 rounds (7.62x51 NATO)
30 rounds (7.62x39 M43)

The US Special Operations Command (US SOCOM) issued a solicitation for the procurement of SOF Combat Assault Rifles (SCAR) on October 15th, 2003. This solicitation requested a new combat rifle, specially tailored for the current and proposed future needs of the US Special Forces, which are somewhat different from latest generic US Army requirements, which are being fulfilled by the newest Heckler-Koch XM8 assault rifle. The key difference in basic requirements between XM8 and SCAR is that, while XM8 is a single-caliber weapon system, tailored for 5.56x45mm NATO ammunition, the SCAR should be available in various different calibers. Initial SOF requirements included two basic versions of SCAR system - the SCAR Light (SCAR-L), available in 5.56mm NATO, and the SCAR heavy (SCAR-H), which should be initially available in significantly more powerful 7.62x51 NATO chambering, and should be easily adaptable in the field to other chamberings. These other chamberings initially include the well-spread 7.62x39 M43 ammunition of the Soviet / Russian origins, and probably some others (like the proposed 6.8x43 Remington SPC cartridge, especially developed for US Special Forces). The key idea of SCAR rifle system is that it will provide the Special Forces operators with wide variety of options, from short-barreled 5.56mm SCAR-L CQC variation, tailored for urban close combat, and up to long range 7.62x51 SCAR-H Sniper variant, as well as 7.62x39 SCAR-H, which will accept "battlefield pickup" AK-47/AKM magazines with 7.62 M43 ammunition, available during the operations behind the enemy lines. Both SCAR-L and SCAR-H shall be initially available in three versions, Standard (S), Close Quarters Combat (CQC) and Sniper Variant (SV). All these variants, regardless the caliber and exact configuration, will provide the operator with the same controls layout, same handling and maintenance procedures, and same optional equipment, such as sights, scopes, and other current and future attachments.

Late in 2004 US SOCOM announced, that the winner for the initial SCAR contracts is the FN USA, an US-based subsidiary of the famous Belgian company Fabrique Nationale Herstal. prototype rifles were manufactured by FN Manufacturing Inc, US-based subsidiary to FN Herstal; This company will also handle series production of rifles. Starting mid-2005, first SCAR rifles went to end users in US Special Operation Forces. Since US SOCOM uses Navy-type "mark" designations, SCAR rifles were officially designated as Rifle Mark 16 (SCAR-L / Light) and Rifle Mark 17 (SCAR-H / Heavy). It is believed that Mk.16 and Mk.17 rifles will gradually replace most rifle systems now in service with US SOCOM forces, such as M4 carbines, M16 rifles, M14 rifles and Mk. 25 sniper rifles.

As it turned out, FN SCAR rifles are not based on any previous weapons but designed from the scratch. In all variants FN SCAR rifles feature gas operated, short stroke piston action with rotating bolt locking. Bolt system appears to be somewhat similar to that of FN Minimi / M249 SAW machine gun. This system apparently is less sensitive to fine sand, dust and any other fouling inside the receiver, than any system with M16-type multi-lug bolt and plunger-type ejector.
Receiver is made from two parts, upper and lower, connected with two cross-pins. Upper part is made from extruded aluminium, lower part is made from polymer. SCAR-L and SCAR-H use similar upper receivers that differ only in the size of ejection port. Other different parts include caliber-specific bolt, barrel, and lower receiver with integral magazine housing. Parts commonality between SCAR-L and SCAR-H is astonishing 90%. Barrels are quick-detachable, and held in the upper receiver with two cross-bolts. Barrel change procedure requires minimum amount of tools, takes just several minutes and there is no need to adjust the headspace after the change.
The trigger unit with ambidextrous safety-fire mode selector switch allows for single shots and full automatic fire, with no provisions for limited-length bursts mode. The charging handle could be easily installed on either side of the weapon, so the upper receiver has respective cuts on both sides. Top of the upper receiver is covered by the full-length integral Picatinny rail (MIL-STD 1913); additional Picatinny rails are mounted on both sides and under the free-floating handguards. Side-folding polymer buttstock is adjustable for length of pull, and is shaped to proved positive cheek rest with adjustable cheek support. SCAR rifles are fitted with removable, adjustable iron sights, with folding diopter-type rear sight on the receiver rail, and folding front sight on the gas block. Any additional type of sighting equipment, necessary for current tasks, including telescope and night sights, can be installed using MIL-STD 1913 compatible mounts.
Mk.16 SCAR-L rifle will use improved M16-type magazines, made of steel; Mk.17 SCAR-H will use proprietary 20-round magazines in 7.62x51 NATO chambering, or standard AK-type magazines in proposed 7.62x39 M43 chambering. Current prototypes of SCAR rifles do not have bayonet mounts, and, probably, will never have one.

http://world.guns.ru/assault/as70-e.htm

Generation Kill

06-25-2006, 12:54 AM

the heckler and kotch loko rather fugly

http://www.mylifelikeyoucare.com/battle_rifle_front.jpg =D

Name Taken

06-25-2006, 01:15 AM

It would surely be the G36. Same ammo and similar characteristics to the M16 family, but more modern and reliable.

Ea$y-8

06-25-2006, 01:55 AM

What weapon you ask?

http://www.militaryfactory.com/smallarms/imgs/xm8.jpg

M8 Carbine?

http://world.guns.ru/assault/scar_l-1.jpg

FN SCAR?

http://www.geocities.com/saspastandpresent/g36k.jpg

G36?

http://www.military-page.de/waffen/sig/550/bild_sig_01.jpg

SiG 550?

http://content.answers.com/main/content/wp/en-commons/thumb/c/ce/180px-Grand_Turk(36).jpg

Muskets?

Yarrick2

06-25-2006, 02:01 AM

http://content.answers.com/main/content/wp/en-commons/thumb/c/ce/180px-Grand_Turk(36).jpg

Muskets?brown bess is that you?

Mountain Man

06-25-2006, 03:04 AM

Still sexy after all these years
http://img204.imageshack.us/img204/9554/m141su.png

TacoDelRio

06-25-2006, 04:34 AM

Intratec TEC-9.

Beckett

06-25-2006, 05:03 AM

it would be the SCAR i suppose.....

Mikers

06-25-2006, 05:34 AM

Hk G36, G36k

Hawkeye

06-25-2006, 06:32 AM

G36 would be good, but think about mags.

F2000 and SCAR have same mags as US military uses now ...

scrybe

06-25-2006, 07:22 AM

Still sexy after all these years
http://img204.imageshack.us/img204/9554/m141su.png

That's what I was going to say. Bump back up to the 7.62. Full size to replace the M16, M14 Scout to replace the M4, either with the traditional M14 pistol grip stock or an economical adaptation of the Sage mod for the M14 which provides a pistol grip and rails necesarry for modern accesories. Mmmm....

Katana-sr

06-25-2006, 08:42 AM

If logistics and speed are not an issue, go with the XM8. Lots of modularity on a reliable G36 basis. A big change would the sight however, no more iron sights as standard. Also maintenance, training and drills would have to be created, which could take some time. No ammo change though, if M16 magazines could be reused that would be a plus too (don't know if they fit into the magwell or the magwell could be adapted).
FN SCAR ist probably too expensive for general usage, but would be a good option if not.

With logistics and speed in mind, there should be plenty of M14s in stock, and training manuals and drills, maintenance equipment and so forth already exist. I wouldn't go back to 7,62mm if there is a choice.

Impulse_t0

06-25-2006, 09:13 AM

http://perso.wanadoo.fr/mdi/images/bckgrd/bckgrd_big/terminator_004.jpg

akmarksman

06-25-2006, 09:26 AM

the OICW?..nah.

I'd x2 the G36 or the M14..(M14 SOPMOD) or the M8.

HVU

06-25-2006, 10:34 AM

WarriorMonk

06-25-2006, 10:48 AM

an improved OICW or the XM8...

*runs*

Ubar

06-25-2006, 10:49 AM

HK33 could be a good choice, same realiability of the g3, but smaller and easier to handle for today's pussy soldiers :P (joke, go eat a **** :D )

Sc-He

06-25-2006, 11:05 AM

G3 is a delight to shoot with..wootp-) But it's too long and too heavy for modern battlefields I think.. I guess one of the newer guns, like FN SCAR.

One question: Why does the SCAR-L have a longer barrel than the SCAR-H?

You don't care about the length and weight, when you know you have the good ol' G3's power and precision :hug:

Oddbod

06-25-2006, 11:56 AM

FN-FAL in .280 British.
Rugged, reliable & capable of ACCURATE full-auto fire(unlike the 7.62x51 version).
The same problem with FA firing applies to all 7.62NATO chambered rifles: they're too light for a full power cartridge.

The FAL loses little in effectiveness with barrel length reduced to 18" & with it's gas piston, rather than direct impingement action, obviates many of the reliability problems/cleaning issues seen with the latter.

Adam Wilhelm

06-25-2006, 12:38 PM

One question: Why does the SCAR-L have a longer barrel than the SCAR-H?

Both SCAR-L and SCAR-H have 3 barrellenghts.
CQC, S(tandard) and SV(Sniper Version).

And about cost, according to SMGLee the SCAR cost as much as M16/M4 so it´s not expensive.

Hollis

06-25-2006, 01:19 PM

brown bess is that you?

I see Easy 8 is into bondage with his muskets.

GothicSnake

06-25-2006, 01:29 PM

G36 would be good, but think about mags.Dont newer G36s accept M16 mags? I thought I read that somewhere...eh maybe I'm losing my mind. :|

Anyway I'd probably go with M8 or G36 chambered in an intermediate round.

Yarrick2

06-25-2006, 02:32 PM

Dont newer G36s accept M16 mags? I thought I read that somewhere...eh maybe I'm losing my mind. :|

Anyway I'd probably go with M8 or G36 chambered in an intermediate round.you can get a magwell for it that can accept m16 magazines

LordHalbert

06-25-2006, 03:35 PM

Dual UZIs for total ownage and style !!

http://www.gaia-airsoft.org/op_pix/0036.jpg

Hollis

06-25-2006, 03:38 PM

YOu guys are ALL WRONG, wrong I tell ya...

I would op for a A10 thunderbolt..............

Hollis

06-25-2006, 03:40 PM

Dual UZIs for total ownage and style !!

what is in the barrels? Airsoft?

Andy S

06-25-2006, 04:55 PM

if i saw someone duel weilding UZi's, i'd laugh and then shoot them with my G36C

USMC Tanker

06-25-2006, 05:36 PM

To replace the M16: M1A Scout

http://i12.photobucket.com/albums/a246/dcarter_usmc/AA9122Large.jpg

To replace the M4: Something short, handy, and modular, the M1A SOCOM II

http://i12.photobucket.com/albums/a246/dcarter_usmc/AA9629Large.jpg

Roids

06-25-2006, 05:41 PM

To replace the M4: Something short, handy, and modular, the M1A SOCOM II

http://i12.photobucket.com/albums/a246/dcarter_usmc/AA9629Large.jpg

Beat me to it.

usm2b

06-25-2006, 07:28 PM

How about an m-16a5

Former Gold Falcon

06-25-2006, 08:19 PM

To replace the M16:
To replace the M4: Something short, handy, and modular, the M1A SOCOM II
http://i12.photobucket.com/albums/a246/dcarter_usmc/AA9629Large.jpg

It might be possible to find something heavier to carry, but the search will take awhile.

At the very least, the muzzleblast will be good for clearing rooms and cleaning ears!

T.

P.S. H&K 53 would do the trick.

XxDualityxX

06-25-2006, 08:26 PM

m1 garand.

MEGR

06-25-2006, 10:47 PM

Under these restrictions, I'd go with the SCAR. Aside from that, I'm in favor of keeping the M16 and its variants. I don't see why they need to be replaced after all these years.

hammerlock

06-26-2006, 12:35 AM

The FAL is the best option here. either is 7.62 or even 5.56, it can be dressed up or dressed down and is a proven and test combat rifle.

usm2b

06-26-2006, 11:38 PM

I was making a statement to make an upgrade. I know one does not exist.

thatguy96

06-27-2006, 01:10 AM

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v226/thatguy96/Stuff/supmodm4.jpg

No replacing necessary with accessories like these.

TacoDelRio

06-27-2006, 02:29 AM

Thatguy beat me to it!

On a side note, how about AK's? Got a ton of them, they do a good job at hammering away. I can hit sh*t with them pretty well out to 300 and then use it as a hammer to build a small house.

Former Gold Falcon

06-28-2006, 12:39 AM

The FAL is the best option here. either is 7.62 or even 5.56, it can be dressed up or dressed down and is a proven and test combat rifle.

PITA for a southpaw shooter.

T.

Kerpan

06-29-2006, 05:29 PM

M16 - I'd say G3 or G33(universal 5.56 cartridge from the m16's and M4's would be readily available)

M4 - HK53 compact and deadly

or G36's with M16 mag adapters (its on the OICW and the rifle is essentialy a hacked up G36)

RomanS

06-29-2006, 07:51 PM

XxDualityxX

06-29-2006, 07:57 PM

thats pretty crazy.

Oddbod

06-29-2006, 10:08 PM

PITA for a southpaw shooter.

T.

I totally disagree:

I'm naturally left handed but right eye dominant - shoot better from the left shoulder but I can do near as well off the right.

The cartridges are ejected right & forwards & cause me no problems, nor do the magazine release, selector or charging handle.

The FAL/SLR is a rifle where the ergonomics just plain work.

TacoDelRio

06-29-2006, 10:29 PM

I agree with Roman. A good AKM in 7.62x39mm. Easy to get parts, mags, ammo, anythign you friggin' want for it, anywhere on the goddamn planet. It's a hammer.

gaijinsamurai

06-29-2006, 10:38 PM

X3. AKs are dependable.

Former Gold Falcon

07-02-2006, 05:09 AM

I totally disagree:

or charging handle.

The FAL/SLR is a rifle where the ergonomics just plain work.

Keeping the dominate hand on the grip and rotating the rifle over to use the charging handle is slower and a PITA. Only one hand should come off the weapon for EVERYTHING. Magazine changes, and immediate action drills.

T.

Private Navarro

08-29-2006, 05:02 PM

Both have ACTUALLY been replaced....

http://www.hkpro.com/416poster14.jpg

http://www.hkpro.com/416studio10.jpg

http://www.hkpro.com/416studio14.jpg

http://www.hkpro.com/416studio16.jpg

http://www.hkpro.com/416studio20.jpg

http://www.hkpro.com/416studioeglm.jpg

http://www.hkpro.com/416studioupperkit.jpg

In one of the most significant advances in the M16 system since its inception, the HK416 had the potential to take the black rifle world by storm. Unfortunately, several missteps by HK ownership have done much to prevent the full potential for this weapon system. What you see above are the four main HK416 production models.

In the free world, and especially the United States, the AR15/M16 is the de facto system in the hands of not only the military and civilian police, but also the American sport shooter and military gun collector.

It was always plagued by one inherent flaw, the direct gas impingement system that was responsible for a myriad of problems in reliability, that are largely controllable if the weapon is kept clean and lubricated. However, this is not always possible in the operational environment.

HK enjoyed considerable success with the redesign of major components of the SA80 system deployed by the British military. The SA80A2 bears not only the HK trademark, but the advanced engineering that made a notoriously unreliable rifle trustworthy again.

It was only natural that HK be the one to apply its engineering expertise to the M16 system.
They did, and the result was the HK416.

Originally called the HKM4, Colt filed suit against HK for patent infringement on the rifle design, and for trademark infringement on the term "M4." The suit was settled out of court under undisclosed terms, but the trademark issue was won by Bushmaster when it was ruled that the term M4 was not proprietary to Colt, and could not be claimed as such. Conceivably, this ruling also applied to HK, though it has not been specifically enumerated as such.

Source: http://www.hkpro.com/hk416.htm

I'm sure you knew about this, but anyway, here's the info I found...^^

And this is my choice!!! well balanced rifle, made by the Gods of Heckler & Koch woot

Anyway, if I have to choice a different rifle, I'll choose the H&K G36E :)

Seraphim

08-29-2006, 05:05 PM

Anthony91

08-29-2006, 05:07 PM

You should be the new Dumbarse of the week.

I agree......:D

Hollis

08-29-2006, 05:09 PM

do a search on the AR 180, Late 60's AR, had a gas piston design.

ZaakM433

08-29-2006, 05:11 PM

You should be the new Dumbarse of the week.

And you should be the new dumbarse of the week for quoting his whole post directly below the post in question!

Seraphim

08-29-2006, 05:13 PM

And you should be the new dumbarse of the week for quoting his whole post directly below the post in question!

I did that so he couldnt edit his post.

Private Navarro

08-29-2006, 05:16 PM

And you should be the new dumbarse of the week for quoting his whole post directly below the post in question!

I agree... xD

Nah, I won't edit my post, the shame is set already...:cantbeli:

Understand me: I'm not an Einstein in weapons, I don't speak english, I'm currently working, and maybe I'm a bit dizzy....

czr

08-29-2006, 05:18 PM

Tavor would be a cool choice, I think I read somewhere that it shares some parts with m16 family and can accept the same mags,

http://www.enemyforces.com/firearms/tavor.jpg

Createdeemcee

08-29-2006, 05:24 PM

Seiran

08-29-2006, 05:48 PM

Tavor would be a cool choice, I think I read somewhere that it shares some parts with m16 family and can accept the same mags,

http://www.enemyforces.com/firearms/tavor.jpg

Indeed sir.

Private Navarro

08-29-2006, 05:57 PM

Tavor all the way, The 416 is awesome too though, hard to decide between the 2. But hey Mr navarro knows best I guess at 17 he knows the ropes. The decision is in limbo and will be untill we are not fighting any wars. Ill keep my m4 and call it a day!

It depends on the likes and dislikes of the wielder ;)

And...maybe, at my 17's, I know a bit of weapons...I've shoot on a range a couple of times...but I've never had such weapons as Rifles, carbines or submachineguns...Call me a "noob" if you want, I don't care, but I entered this forum to know a bit more, cause I realized that there are a lot of experts in this forum!!! =D

And hey...maybe there are a lot of guns better than the H&K 416...just wait ;)

Like u said, until a new war arises...

amazing kg3

08-30-2006, 06:41 AM

Most people are right on the money about the SCAR, but i like the g36 the best, seems like the most advanced deployed rifle as it is. And if US cant adapt to the double stack magazines, then im sue theyll design a new magwell, both the m4 and g36 use the same ammo.

ClydeFrog

08-30-2006, 08:58 AM

There already is a G36 magwell for STANAG magazines... all you need to do is replace a little piece of plastic. And judging by the length of pull i'd prefer a AUG over the Tavor anyday.

Ten Euros says the next US issue rifle is going to be the SCAR. Who's in?

amazing kg3

08-30-2006, 04:50 PM

im in, but i can only give you 14.24 canadian...

Private Navarro

08-30-2006, 08:52 PM

10 Euros!!!??? O_O

That's like 30 bucks of my country...:P

I'm in too...but I only have 15,75 Argentinian Pesos...

Adam Wilhelm

08-30-2006, 09:09 PM

I think that Clyde got it right.
Remember that the M4 was made for and used by SOCOM?
Then it´s filtered down to other units in the army.
I´m thinking that is exactly what will happen to the SCAR.

LaoSexMachine

08-30-2006, 09:26 PM

I think that Clyde got it right.
Remember that the M4 was made for and used by SOCOM?
Then it´s filtered down to other units in the army.
I´m thinking that is exactly what will happen to the SCAR.

Are you sure it was made for SOCOM or did SOCOM eyed it and thought it will fit well with them. Didn't the M$s derived from the AR15/XM117?

Adam Wilhelm

08-30-2006, 09:35 PM

You are right, according to Guns.ru (http://world.guns.ru/assault/as17-e.htm) the M4 "was intended to replace in service some M9 pistols, as well as some aged M3A1 submachine guns and some M16A2 rifles."
Then SOCOM eyed it because it is more handier.

8thidpathfinderpower

08-31-2006, 12:45 AM

If I was going to replace the M16/M4, I would go with the Mk14 EBR..modular weapon system,big stopping power,and plenty of spare parts.

amazing kg3

08-31-2006, 01:19 AM

theres also thw possibility of the colt m5 prototype, bythe looks of things, its just a new upper reciever and barrel assembly.

http://www.militaryphotos.net/forums/showthread.php?t=72167&page=4

LaoSexMachine

08-31-2006, 01:26 AM

theres also thw possibility of the colt m5 prototype, bythe looks of things, its just a new upper reciever and barrel assembly.

http://www.militaryphotos.net/forums/showthread.php?t=72167&page=4

It's the 416:roll:

amazing kg3

08-31-2006, 01:51 AM

It's the 416:roll:

Its not the 416/417 series at all. Not only would that be refered to the whole gun itself, its not the HK assembly. Very similar, but not HK.

LaoSexMachine

08-31-2006, 01:57 AM

Its not the 416/417 series at all. Not only would that be refered to the whole gun itself, its not the HK assembly. Very similar, but not HK.

A gas system like the 416/17. It's made to be compatible with almost any colt/similar reciever. The Top might be different but the lower is the same. How is it drastically different form a 416?

amazing kg3

08-31-2006, 06:50 AM

o some what contradicted myself, i said its not the 416 at all, then i said similar but different. In turn, yes the are much the same in the way colts can swap out parts now, still, its not the 416/417

AK74

08-31-2006, 09:43 AM

i vote for the AK!!!

SMGLee

08-31-2006, 01:57 PM

This is just my two cents...since i am the village idiot, you can take my opinion for what it is worth.

AK
Poor egronomics,
horrible iron sights,
7.62x39 is not a good combat round, 5.45 was better but still not as well designed as a 55gr M193 or the newer 77gr. MK262
there is no way US would adapted a Russian desing as their primary combat rifle.

M14 in any format
heavy recoil
poor egronomics
hard to maintain
heavy
Only reason some of you pick the M14 is because of the recent surge of interest of the system by the military as a DMR. back then people can;t get rid of the M14 rfast enough.

FAL or G3, both are older and much less desireable design,
G3 has again poor egronomics, FAL are rpone to jams, both recoil heavy and weight a ton. remember the 300lbs of light weight gear?

G36/XM8...Well, some of you guys knew my opinion on it. poor magazine design, lose zero on demand, and G36 has a crack stock problem and a poor optic system to boot. HK has taken the G36 off its catalog in the US this year. that tells you something.

SIG SG55x, best AK ever made. I still hate having the charging handle on the right.
expensive add on rail platform, bolt on receiver rail that can be trouble, and AK egronomics. safety is rock hard, Magazine like the G36 are hard to find proper pouch for it.

Any bullpup hinders CQB operations. it is hard to transition to support side to clear corners. poor triggers and bad egronomics.

so in the end, M4 is probably the best choice for an combat assault rifle as anyone could hope for at this time. it is not the best, nor is it the worst, it has flews but when you add up all the pluses and minuses, M4 used by number of military elite special forces around the globe it is the choice of the professionals.

It is always interesting to see members suggesting firearm of past, such as G3, AK47, FAL, M14. look forward.. no need to find an older pig to replace an aging pig.

Right now, there is really nothing on the market that can complete with the ability and firepower delivered by the FN SCAR. this is and can be the rifle of the future for the Us military until something really revolutionary comes along.

again.. just my .02... don't blast me too hard.. :D

ClydeFrog

08-31-2006, 02:52 PM

Ratamacue

08-31-2006, 03:05 PM

Right now, there is really nothing on the market that can complete with the ability and firepower delivered by the FN SCAR. this is and can be the rifle of the future for the Us military until something really revolutionary comes along. There is something potentially revolutionary on the horizon in the Army's Lightweight Small Arms Technologies program. Honestly, I wouldn't expect a new US rifle until that program either succeeds or fails. There's no sense in buying the XM8 or SCAR or HK416 right now when there's a new, lighter weapon family (rifle, LMG and/or GPMG) firing a new ammunition type possibly ready for issuance in the next 5 years.

SMGLee

08-31-2006, 03:07 PM

You list a lot of major and minor problems (well some are just personal opinions really)... while just mentioning that the M4 "has its flews". THAT tells me something. No offense intended.

The only broken G36 stock I've seen is one that had a violent landing with a paratrooper. And I have heard a lot less complains from their magazines than from the STANAGs.

Yeah they took the G36 from the US site... because they push the HK416 there now. They call that marketing.

M4 has some flews, but M4 has proven to be very reliable when used within its original design perimeter. It is hard to maintain this weapon when shot with suppressors or running a 10.5inch CQB-R but other then some of the minor flews, M4 has taken a licking and kept on ticking. direct gas being its weakest link, but a M4 can usually go to 1k rds fired in between cleaning. that is a lot of fighting on anyone's part. M4 flews, are a lot less then a G36.

the inability to keep zero are a major factor that some seriously big federal agency has returned the G36k in inventroy for the better HK 416.

Magazine lip has seem some cracking is a known factor of the G36 systems. even the XM8 had plans to move to the M16 mags down the road, but since the project is dead, that is a moot point.

marketing or not.. HK had one time MP5, UMP, G36, HK33/53 and many other on the catalog, by saying taking G36 off is a marketing move, that is BS. G36 just isn't selling. you can sell more then one type of rifle in your lineup.. look at FN.

HK has a gem in the 416, and they know it.

Sparky2129

08-31-2006, 03:08 PM

You list a lot of major and minor problems (well some are just personal opinions really)... while just mentioning that the M4 "has its flews". THAT tells me something. No offense intended.

You realize that your speaking to SMGLee right? A very well respected member of these boards and he DOES know his stuff, his firearms collection is massive and I'm sure hes fired all firearms on that list many times over DESPITE being located in the PROK. His spelling mistakes do not reflect his more than adequate knowledge of firearms. Pay attention to what this man says people!

This is just my two cents...since i am the village idiot, you can take my opinion for what it is worth.

Haha. Funny Lee...

SMGLee

08-31-2006, 03:11 PM

There is something potentially revolutionary on the horizon in the Army's Lightweight Small Arms Technologies program. Honestly, I wouldn't expect a new US rifle until that program either succeeds or fails. There's no sense in buying the XM8 or SCAR or HK416 right now when there's a new, lighter weapon family (rifle, LMG and/or GPMG) firing a new ammunition type possibly ready for issuance in the next 5 years.

I agree, there are a lot of new technology on the horizon. but for now, if something has to be pressed into service, SCAR is the closest thing to an improvement to the M4/M16 system. at least the technology in the SCAR is proven.

loganinkosovo

08-31-2006, 03:21 PM

The question is rather academic since it is being replaced ......

http://www.military.com/pics/Gear_051104_MX8-1.jpg
http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/systems/ground/images/xm8-poster.jpg

SMGLee

08-31-2006, 03:22 PM

You realize that your speaking to SMGLee right? A very well respected member of these boards and he DOES know his stuff, his firearms collection is massive and I'm sure hes fired all firearms on that list many times over DESPITE being located in the PROK. His spelling mistakes do not reflect his more than adequate knowledge of firearms. Pay attention to what this man says people!

Haha. Funny Lee...

remember.. I am the MP village idiot.. lol and typing faster then i can spell.

MG 3

08-31-2006, 03:29 PM

SMGlee you must be kidding me on the G36. it is a weapon that even excedes its ansestor the G3 in reliability. We are praying that we switch to the G36. trials are under way.

I believe the US should go for the 416.

SMGLee

08-31-2006, 03:29 PM

XM8=G36... did you figure the XM8 got dropped that quickly because it was a good system? It got dropped because it can't pass the mustard.

so here I go again..

XM8/G36 problems.

Magazine lip cracking and odd shape design making pouches hard to come by. the tab on the side usually get the magazine stuck inside the pouch faster then you can say transition.

trunnion embedded in the polymer receiver with steel insert. the polymer gets hot from prolong firing and the trunnion shifted ever so slightly.. Lost zero. Readjust zero and take weapon out for prolong firing, again polymer gets hot, trunnion shifts and lost zero.

all the magazine release and bolt catch inside the trigger guard.. bad idea.

the charging handle is the swing **** style, if you don't get a good grab on it, it can slip out of your hands in dare emergency or incline weather.

after thought on back up iron sight

are a few problem with the gun during testing.

My opinion is bias. I am a M4 centric shooter. However I do think there are several weapon systems that are really good... AK series, SG55x, G36, and in the end, none of those rifle can really take the place of the M4 in a all out comparison. it might be better in one way or another, but overall, M4 is like a good German Sheppard. Not great all anything, but damn good at all things. that makes the gun one heck of a fighting rifle. I go like the G36 over the G3, but G36 is still not the end all and be all rifle.

416 seems like the best alternative for the lowest cost change over.. but with HK cost, a 416 upper with all associated parts cost about as much as a complete SCAR and all you get from HK are the upper assembly with rail handguard and anew buffer. plus the 416 are a very front end heavy system. by hanging the gas piston on the barrel, they had to use a heavy profile in order to keep the accuracy with out worrying about the harmonics being produced by the piston. FN resolved this issue by using a different type of barrel/piston to receiver mounting method.

Think about a serial number upper monolithic receiver made by 7000 series extrusion. a trunnion encompass the barrel and piston assemble, that you can change by removing four screws and a polymer lower that can be made in several calibers with a robust and highly adjustable stock. not a bad idea at all.

IrishArmy

08-31-2006, 03:31 PM

Seraphim

08-31-2006, 03:41 PM

All noob accounts created in 2006 should not be allowed to post.

IrishArmy

08-31-2006, 03:43 PM

lol please do explan??????

this is a forum yes/no

Anthony91

08-31-2006, 03:47 PM

lol please do explan??????

this is a forum yes/no

It is a collective group of diverse people who like to speak to each other.

SMGLee

08-31-2006, 03:52 PM

Gents what about the steyr rifle,

Comes in all the barrel lenghts you need and the new A3 and A4 versions are available, i would agree with a comment made about CBQ it just cant be fired left handed, (hot brass in the face). But i am sure that this problem could be fixed if asked for and enough money spent (i am not a weapons enginer so plz dont flame that small comment).

No flame.. Steyr AUG has been the most successful Bullpup design ever....it is a good gun... but.......................

the trigger are horrible, it can't overcome the long pull generated by the trigger rod that travels from the trigger back to the firing group.

Magazine changes are slower with a Bullpup, you have to reach back to get it done.

The ejection of the round can only be set for one side, let's say this... if you are in a MOUT, you are fighting your way down a hallway with unknown number of doors and interesecting hallways. you have to pie the corners, and let's assume you are a right hander and you have your AUG set up to eject to the right. you can effectly clear a left hand side door or corner, but as soon as you run into a right side corner or door, as a trained operator, you need to transition to your support side(left) well, you can't shoot the AUG on your support side shoulder. so you have to over expose your body inorder to clear a right side corner. no matter how much you cant your body, you will always expose more then you should.

just something to think about.

SMGLee

08-31-2006, 03:53 PM

All noob accounts created in 2006 should not be allowed to post.

We are just having fun and I got a lot of time on my hands today.. :)

I figure i stir the nest a bit. ;)

IrishArmy

08-31-2006, 03:58 PM

Well put Anthony. Noob i love that word, its great. well done seraphim, i put forward the steyr rifle because i have 7 years experance with the rifle and a few other type including the M 16, just didnt want it to be left out. its a well put together rifle and i have rarely seen one broken, i am sure that serving personel from Austria, NZ, Ausie and of course Ireland would agree.

Again i do think that the ability to fire a rifle left handed is very important in CQC and FIBUA situations and this is where the steyr is lacking.

I'mOnlyHalfPolish

08-31-2006, 03:59 PM

AK-103

http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y26/EzraColi/Gunpics/ak103k.jpg

You can mount anything on it these days

Advantages -

Folding solid stock
Reliable as hell
Ak-74 sucsesful compensator
Accurate
7.62x39
takes any AK-47 magazines
mounts grenade launchers

hhhmmm good call, considering where we're fighting these days, i would want something that could take ole AK mags!

IrishArmy

08-31-2006, 04:02 PM

Good point SMGlee and i would have to agree with you.

Its a shame that the steyr could not be fixed in such a way as to be fired from both shoulders.

MG 3

08-31-2006, 04:04 PM

SMGLee I was wrong about you! you know your stuff. I had the same prob with the AUG. Our airport security forces use it. and a friend in it let me fore a few rounds.

SMGLee how many weapons have you fired.

ClydeFrog

08-31-2006, 04:27 PM

You realize that your speaking to SMGLee right? A very well respected member of these boards and he DOES know his stuff, his firearms collection is massive and I'm sure hes fired all firearms on that list many times over DESPITE being located in the PROK.
Sorry but so what?

I didn't call him any names or nothing, but I simply spent and still do spend quite some time with the G36 among other rifles and it is my opinion that much of what he complained about were either minor problems or issues that occur very rarely, or not at all when you use the gun properly.

Everyone would jump on me if I said the magazine lips of the STANAG would bent often or that the spring was crap, but you can say the G36 had frequent magazine problems? Puh-lease.

If you can throw in melting receivers, I might as well throw the list of AR15 ****ting-itself-direct-gas-action problems, but no, then I'd be chased to hell because these never happen unless you abuse the rifle, right? Well just like the G36 never melts if you don't abuse it heavily. I have *never* seen a G36 receiver melt. I only know of such instances through the internet and even those I can count on one hand. I'm inclined to say that this never happens if "you use the rifle within its limits", an argument usually thrown up whenever something slightly negative is said about the AR15.

Seiran

08-31-2006, 04:50 PM

I'm curious as to what Lee thinks about the Barrett 6.8mm uppers? Would they make a nice switch?

SMGLee

08-31-2006, 05:00 PM

Sorry but so what?
Everyone would jump on me if I said the magazine lips of the STANAG would bent often or that the spring was crap, but you can say the G36 had frequent magazine problems? Puh-lease.

If you can throw in melting receivers, I might as well throw the list of AR15 ****ting-itself-direct-gas-action problems, but no, then I'd be chased to hell because these never happen unless you abuse the rifle, right? Well just like the G36 never melts if you don't abuse it heavily. I have *never* seen a G36 receiver melt. I only know of such instances through the internet and even those I can count on one hand. I'm inclined to say that this never happens if "you use the rifle within its limits", an argument usually thrown up whenever something slightly negative is said about the AR15.

Clyde, it is all fun and games...no worries..

The lip on the M16 mags do bend, but it is a disposable item, it is cheap compare to the G36 molded magazines. idrect gas is problematic, but I was told one thing long ago.. AK is more accurate then you think and M16 is more reliable then you think. Clyde, you are not worng for saying the G36 are better in some respect then the M4, but in a overall picture, G36 still lack in ability that the M4 is capable of. I can't stress enough how reliable the M4 is. We are not talking about some third tier manufacture M4, we are talking about a tier one gun, made by Colt, FN. they have proven to be more reliable then you can ever imagine. I have regualrly seen M4 pushed to unreal limits. my personal M4 has had 2500 rds through it without one single cleaning except of some CLP to keep it running. and that 2500 rds had a few sessions in the rain and mud.

I am not saying G36 melt, but the heat does expand the polymer and it can cause the trunnion ot shift. this is shooting the rifle within its limits.

How many G36 have you shot? trust me, I have seen a melted G36 receiver.

6.8 is a great round, too bad the military interest are very limited to Spec Ops communities.

IrishArmy

08-31-2006, 05:06 PM

SMGLee

08-31-2006, 06:02 PM

I for one would like to hear more about this 6.8rd SPC

Intened uses, SF of Army, range and how accurate it is, if anyone here has any experance with it, Which Military rifles are chambered to fire it.

SMGlee have you any experance with it.

ythe problem is the Us military laready have in its inventroy a 5.56 and a 7.62, to slot the 6.8 right there in the middle is just not a good supply and logistic idea. the round are better then the 5.56 but the 77gr MK262 comes extremely close to its performance, it is lighter and less recoil then the 7.62x51 but 308 pack more punch. 6.8 is the step child that just can't get any respect. but all in all, the 6.8 can be a great special operation/LEO cartridge and a excellent civilian hunting and defense round.

ClydeFrog

09-01-2006, 04:35 AM

Clyde, it is all fun and games...no worries..

I am not saying G36 melt, but the heat does expand the polymer and it can cause the trunnion ot shift. this is shooting the rifle within its limits.
How many G36 have you shot? trust me, I have seen a melted G36 receiver.
No offense taken, everyone has their opinions. But you knew what you were in for after your first post ;)

Roughly, I have probably shot 6 to 8 G36 alltogether, through two of them more than 2000 rounds. That's from mind, I didn't really count them. So I wouldn't exactly call myself an expert on the system but I know what they can do and what they can't. And of the things you've mentioned only really the optics I can agree on. They fog up now and then and the red-dot kills too much peripheral view. But then, I'd still prefer them over aperture iron sights any day.

I have shot a Beta-C mag (in all fairness I'm not sure if it was fully loaded though) in one continuous burst through "my" G36 at one time and the handguard started to smoke and smell funny, but the rifle was still functional and zero was unaffected. I heard using Beta-C's with M16s was forbidden in the US Army no? By the way: Said handguard is the only thing that ever had to be replaced, everything else is still all from the original rifle... which is probably about ten years old now.

I'm just a little grumpy because a lot of complains were made here about ergonomics, charging handle placement or magazine pouches (did I mention there's a STANAG magwell for the G36?) of several well respected rifles. Complains that are, in my eyes, all secondary issues when compared to the fact that the M16 uses a very unsuitable system of operation for an assault rifle. Even with all the decades of tweaking, and no rifle has ever been through more tweaking than the M16, that can't be denied. I rather spent 0.01 second more on changing the magazine than having to worry that every shot I make increases the chance of a malfunction by x percent.

SMGLee

09-01-2006, 01:41 PM

Beta was unreliable at best in combat condition. This is why the system was popular with the US military. Dumping one beta does not prove a system's worth. I have done beta dump with my M4 and the gun remains to be functional and zero. I have once did a 8 mag(240rds) dump from a Diemaco C8 and the gun while smoking, I inserted a 20 rd mag and fire all 20 in semi into a steel plate 50 yrds away with out any lost of zero nor FTF. Once you fired your G36 in such manner, have you recheck the zero once the gun has cooled down? One of the biggest federal agencies can't seem to get their G36 to maintain zero due to the trunnion shift problem and this also happened with the XM8. Not to say your test were minor, but those guys have done extensive and punishing testing especially during the XM8 project. just stating facts.

No need to be grumpy, I have to deal with the M4 is unreliable and 5.56 is under power for a long time. So keep your chin up and have some fun. This is just one anti G36 guy out of thousands of internet commandos that believe HK makes nothing but gold. 

The Mag pouch aren't as easy to pull the mags out. I have in few times get the tab stuck on the edge of the mag pouch thus slow my reload time.

What tweaking has M4 or M16 been through? From A1 to A2? the gas system and the basic function has remain the same. No rifle has been the service life as the M16 without tweaking. Look at the AK series... prime example. AK47, AKM, AK74, AK100. But in both rifle the basic components remain the same. for 50 years, M16 has been a reliable weapon system, except in CQB-R(10.5"0 or sustain firing with suppressor, other then that M16/M4 has proven to be reliable. Every shot increase the malfunction by X factor happens with every firearm. even AK goes down for the count. I have seen that. to say that you can't trust the M4, that is purely your opinion and I can't change that but look at it this way. SOCOM, SAS, SBS, GROM, JTF2 all run the M4 in one form or another. that really says a lot about the system.

G36 has been a reliable gun; I have no doubt about its ability to stay in the fight. Compare the gas piston to the direct gas; it is like 100:1. Every 100 round from a piston is like one out of a direct gas. But I can shoot over 2500 plus rounds with out having to worry about any FTF and that are more then you would have to fire in a few combat engagement. This is kind of like saying the EOTech 1500 hours is low compare to the 50,000 by the Aimpoint. How long can you sustain in a fight with out some down time?

LaoSexMachine

09-01-2006, 11:03 PM

Sabre

09-02-2006, 07:35 AM

Seven pages and no

http://royalmarines.mine.nu/library/ag36.jpg

Catch22

09-02-2006, 08:13 AM

What are you up to Sabre? :-)

Sabre

09-02-2006, 08:38 AM

How do you mean?

Catch22

09-02-2006, 09:20 AM

I mean, do you really find L85A2 the best weapon alternative to replace AR series as given in the topic? It's like the French would jump up with FAMAS.

Even after HK upgrades L85A2 seem to lack a bit in modularity (barrels, as opposed to AUG) and ergonomics (unswitchable for lefties, controls placement).

Sabre

09-02-2006, 10:25 AM

Oh, right. No I was just saying that nobody has mentioned it.

This thread is somewhat academic anyway as the decision to replace the M16 would inevitably be followed by political rumblings, extensive trials, money wasting and the recomendation of setting up a comittee to decide when the decision should really be made...

Wamba

09-02-2006, 03:57 PM

No need to be grumpy, I have to deal with the M4 is unreliable and 5.56 is under power for a long time. So keep your chin up and have some fun. This is just one anti G36 guy out of thousands of internet commandos that believe HK makes nothing but gold.

Heckler & Koch and SIG are the best weapons manufactures now days, in my humble opinion, but nevertheless they are not perfect.

In the U.S. many "gun experts" have been criticizing the new HK family of weapons: G36, UMP, etc. pointing out some serious faults on them.

Personally I think there is a lot of the "not made in here" factor influencing those critics. If is not a AR-15/M-16 based system, then is not an option. (See the HK416 project.)

When the price tag was a big difference, the U.S. market still felt safe. You could buy a HK-33E or a SIG 551 for the price of 2 or even 3 AR-15 types. Now with the new HK "plastics" is a different deal.

I am NOT a fan of the G36 system (too much plastic for an old timer like me), but without a shade of doubt, I believe it to be a Great weapon.

solidarnosc

09-02-2006, 04:34 PM

Heckler & Koch and SIG are the best weapons manufactures now days, in my humble opinion, but nevertheless they are not perfect.

In the U.S. many "gun experts" have been criticizing the new HK family of weapons: G36, UMP, etc. pointing out some serious faults on them.

Personally I think there is a lot of the "not made in here" factor influencing those critics. If is not a AR-15/M-16 based system, then is not an option. (See the HK416 project.)

When the price tag was a big difference, the U.S. market still felt safe. You could buy a HK-33E or a SIG 551 for the price of 2 or even 3 AR-15 types. Now with the new HK "plastics" is a different deal.

I am NOT a fan of the G36 system (too much plastic for an old timer like me), but without a shade of doubt, I believe it to be a Great weapon.

FN beats both of them in my humble opinion, except in pistol range. Most innovating weapons launched this year were in my opinion FS2000 and PS90.

Hollis

09-02-2006, 04:43 PM

I think a lot of our likes and dislike is from our own military experience (if you have one) or from hearing others.

AR is still doing well. There are no real big complaints.

On firearms choices there are always a lot of trade offs. That can mean what works where you are at may not be the best in a another area. Not only can we argue weapon choice but cartridge type, then bullet type then....... ad infinitum.

The Other issue, the US was outsourcing for a lot of military equipment (buying from other countries) and has been heavily criticized for that especially now during the war on terrorism. One concern is always, will the supply be there tomorrow. Non indigenous supplies will always be the first to go.

Martino

09-02-2006, 06:48 PM

It's a longshot, but I want to see what the G11 would do if mass produced.

Wamba

09-02-2006, 06:52 PM

FN beats both of them in my humble opinion, except in pistol range. Most innovating weapons launched this year were in my opinion FS2000 and PS90.
FN is a Great manufacture with awesome weapons systems and designs. I was the proud owner of a HP35 and had the chance to use the FAL ARs while in South Africa (R1).
Still when a have a Swiss or German weapon in my hands I won't trade it off for anything else. But again, that's just my saying.

I think a lot of our likes and dislike is from our own military experience (if you have one) or from hearing others.
I agree with you on that one. The first AR I was given by the Spanish Army was a CETME "C" (1984). 5kg of metal and hard wood, firing a 7.62x51 cartige. Is hard to get used to ".22 caliber" made of plastic after that...

http://www.polis.es/museo-policia/fotos/260804016041.jpg

Hollis

09-02-2006, 07:05 PM

I agree with you on that one. The first AR I was given by the Spanish Army was a CETME "C" (1984). 5kg of metal and hard wood, firing a 7.62x51 cartige. Is hard to get used to ".22 caliber" made of plastic after that...

http://www.polis.es/museo-policia/fotos/260804016041.jpg

No kidding, my first was the M14......... But it is not practical as a Standard issue against the AR. I like wood and still have not gotten to be "plastic stuff" only guy. Though it (M16) was my main carry in RVN and I have own few and have gotten to like them... I do not discount that .22 Caliber.... it works.

Being retired and probably will never see CQC again, Stuff that Cali Joe makes are just heavenly... Nice wood, nice machinery........... very fine firearms.

dj_1911

11-20-2006, 04:26 PM

VEPR II. Cheap and effective.

http://www.impactguns.com/store/media/vepr_II_7.62x39.jpg

ed316

11-20-2006, 04:52 PM

If it aint broke don't fix it.

AK74

11-20-2006, 04:54 PM

It's a longshot, but I want to see what the G11 would do if mass produced.

me too !

it willl be fun if FS2000 gets some competition in the form of the Steyr AUG , the STI kinetics SAR-21 , the Famas, and of cuz the IWI TAVOR TAR-21.

KillerBD

11-20-2006, 04:56 PM

If it aint broke don't fix it.

I agree with you 100%. But if the military HAD to replace the M-16/M-4 I would suggest the AK-101, it uses the same ammunition, just as accurate, about the same range, and much, much more reliable, and can be moded easily, also has a calapsable stock.
http://www.enemyforces.com/firearms/ak101.gif

ed316

11-20-2006, 04:58 PM

the m4/16 now is just as reliable. The whole unrelaible thing came out when it was first fielded and has long be remedied. The ergonomics on the M4/16s can't be beat.

KillerBD

11-20-2006, 05:05 PM

the m4/16 now is just as reliable. The whole unrelaible thing came out when it was first feeded and has long be remedied. The ergonomics on the M4/16s can't be beat.

I realise this, but the Kalashnikov series of assault rifles are the best when it comes to reliablity, at least for assault rifles it is. But then again the U.S. military doesn't even need a replacement for its current weapons, especially since they M-16A3/4 are getting issued out to troops.

nullterm

11-20-2006, 05:06 PM

The SCAR is probably the likely candidate. Special ops seem to be the first adopters.

If something hypothetically happened tomorrow, I'd say the G36 would be the replacement.

Switching to AK's would be too much of a mental hurdle.

StukaJr

11-20-2006, 05:10 PM

If something hypothetically happened tomorrow, I'd say the G36 would be the replacement.

What improvements over the M16 family does G36 bring? :)

KillerBD

11-20-2006, 05:12 PM

What improvements over the M16 family does G36 bring? :)

Simple answer: none
The FN SCAR is a better choice for a replacement than the M-8 though, but still the M-16 is just fine, no point in increasing our debt to replace a perfectly fine piece of equipment.

BlitzCod

11-20-2006, 05:38 PM

RK-95, mayby in 5.56mm NATO cartridge (cheper for USA, would not have to buy a **** load of 7.62x39mm ammo)

Clips would be same as the usual enemy weapon AKM, or do tangos use 5.45?.

Weapon it self is simple, accurate, reliable. And not so expensive as Sig550.

WARPIG

11-20-2006, 05:44 PM

Not sure why there would have to be a rapid replacement of the M16/M4 series weapon. But logistically, the quickest way to do so would be an off the shelf fielding of the top competitors for the replacement anyway. FN is already a vendor we purchase from. H&K has great products and are pretty well fitted for the US military. I don't see that a universal weapon would be logistically possible. I think specific weapon sets for each unit or unit role would be more feasable. For instance a typical infantry squad has riflemen, grenadiers, leaders, and support. A platoon would have a special teams or squads like snipers or maybe anti-tank. A weapons array would make more sense. Much more "commando" like and more to what the ARMY is looking for. Unfortunately the logistical monster of fielding any equipment for an entity like the ARMY is enormous and extremely slow. But, with so many new products out there and the way the ARMY is fielding more programs "off the shelf" it may not be an impossible scenario. Most focus is on the optics and user platforms currently and that is where the meat of US technological power lies.

If I could kit my own squad.. I think there would definately be a Scar H in the arsenal. RobArm for a bit of cool factor maybe. I like the HK MG series so my support would likely use those. If I had a Sniper team or similar marksman element I would love to equip those guys with a choice of anti-equipment weapon like the latest Barrett product or SIG 550 for more traditional roles.

Hydro

11-20-2006, 05:46 PM

Have you used the H&K machine guns, WARPIG? I'm angling for an opinion, not many people have used them, they seem to be comparatively rare.

AFJROTC

11-20-2006, 05:51 PM

Have you used the H&K machine guns, WARPIG? I'm angling for an opinion, not many people have used them, they seem to be comparatively rare.

The G36 Or FN scar are perfect replacements For M16A2 and M4A1

WARPIG

11-20-2006, 05:55 PM

Have you used the H&K machine guns, WARPIG? I'm angling for an opinion, not many people have used them, they seem to be comparatively rare.

No.. never used one. My opinion is just based on my fondness of the HK product. I am used to the way the safeties and layout works on most M16/m4 series weapons as well as the M9. HK's weapons are very similar in their layout of their safeties and functioning. I also like the modularity that the HK series has been using. It is becoming very popular but HK has been using it for a while.

Same with FN. The SCAR has it's cool factor but FN has been a company that I have gotten used to. I really like the feel and function of the M249 so I can see the SCAR being a very solid and dependable weapon as well. One factor that I learned from Marines about weapon choice. If you can't bludgeon your enemy with it and expect it to stay in one piece, then it isn't a military weapon. FN and HK products historically have that durability.

AFJROTC

11-20-2006, 05:56 PM

AFJROTC

11-20-2006, 05:57 PM

No.. never used one. My opinion is just based on my fondness of the HK product. I am used to the way the safeties and layout works on most M16/m4 series weapons as well as the M9. HK's weapons are very similar in their layout of their safeties and functioning. I also like the modularity that the HK series has been using. It is becoming very popular but HK has been using it for a while.

Same with FN. The SCAR has it's cool factor but FN has been a company that I have gotten used to. I really like the feel and function of the M249 so I can see the SCAR being a very solid and dependable weapon as well. One factor that I learned from Marines about weapon choice. If you can't bludgeon your enemy with it and expect it to stay in one piece, then it isn't a military weapon. FN and HK products historically have that durability.

Hk Guns are so fun to shootp-) The attachment capabilitys are also a good replacement for M16A4

Hydro

11-20-2006, 06:01 PM

No.. never used one. My opinion is just based on my fondness of the HK product. I am used to the way the safeties and layout works on most M16/m4 series weapons as well as the M9. HK's weapons are very similar in their layout of their safeties and functioning. I also like the modularity that the HK series has been using. It is becoming very popular but HK has been using it for a while.

Fair do's, 'PIG.

The older HK21/23 have a reputation for quality, like exemplary single shot accuracy, coupled with the simple reliability of the G3 from which they are derived. I do believe the HK23 was a SAW contender (to the extent it gained an XM classification), beaten by the FN Minimi.

AFJROTC

11-20-2006, 06:03 PM

Hk Guns are so fun to shootp-) The attachment capabilitys are also a good replacement for M16A4

Has anyone consittered the HKXM8 for a replacement:backhand:

Hydro

11-20-2006, 06:04 PM

Has anyone consittered the HKXM8 for a replacement:backhand:

Yes, the US Government.

AFJROTC

11-20-2006, 06:06 PM

Yes, the US Government.

That would be a veary good replacement wouldnt it :backhand:

Hydro

11-20-2006, 06:07 PM

That would be a veary good replacement wouldnt:backhand:

Well, they didn't seem to think so. It was ****canned.

AFJROTC

11-20-2006, 06:09 PM

Well, they didn't seem to think so. It was ****canned.

Well then the FNSCAR would be but what would work with the land warrior system becuse that just cane out

TacoDelRio

11-20-2006, 06:12 PM

The US military won't field AK's as general issue.

I bet $50 that the US will still use the M16 family of weapons until 2020.

Hydro

11-20-2006, 06:13 PM

I bet $50 that the US will still use the M16 family of weapons until 2020.

Yup. Nothing wrong with it. I can see a gas piston upgrade in the future possibly.

nullterm

11-20-2006, 06:34 PM

What improvements over the M16 family does G36 bring? :)

As already answered: none :)

But if the M16/M4 series vanished overnight the G36 would be the US standard, just my opinion. The US already uses HK weapons and there's already a production system in place as several other services already use the weapon. Same 5.56mm.

But the entire discussion is entirely hypothetical. I can only see a continual evolution of the M16/M4 for alot longer than 2020, or replacement by the SCAR.

TacoDelRio

11-20-2006, 06:36 PM

Pfff, if the M16 vanished overnight, the military would be stuck with rubber duckies.

And a sh*tload of article 15's.

ZoneOne

11-20-2006, 06:39 PM

I'm tired of the 5.56, I've been tired of it for a while.

While I have never fired, handled, or even SEEN one of these, I'm a big fan of the caliber.

http://www.defense-update.com/images/SCAR_762.gif
7.62x51 NATO
/ 7.62x39 M43 & others

That's what I would hope to replace the m16 family. No point in going backwards in technology. Always move forward!

BlitzCod

11-20-2006, 06:46 PM

Havent ever seen a real G36. But still there is plastic in it. How it will cope in arctic enviroment? -30C? Plastic is very fragile in those temperatures.. Even metal is fragile in those temperatures. Has anyone any own experiences about G36 in extreme winter coditions?

JTAR7242

11-20-2006, 07:14 PM

ythe problem is the Us military laready have in its inventroy a 5.56 and a 7.62, to slot the 6.8 right there in the middle is just not a good supply and logistic idea. the round are better then the 5.56 but the 77gr MK262 comes extremely close to its performance, it is lighter and less recoil then the 7.62x51 but 308 pack more punch. 6.8 is the step child that just can't get any respect. but all in all, the 6.8 can be a great special operation/LEO cartridge and a excellent civilian hunting and defense round.
I don't think it is that big of a deal as it is. The United States has used a half dozen different service rifle calibers in the last 60 years and there have never been terrible complications in the changeover. If the switch was made to a 6.8mm round, there would still be thousands of 5.56mm weapons in the inventory (especially among Reserve and National Guard units) for years. You can simply begin acquiring the 6.8mm ammuntition and distributing and depleting existing stocks of 5.56mm among units still carrying M16 and M4 family weapons.

Logistics and supply are not an issue with why 6.8mm hasn't been more strongly considered.

Ghostryder

11-20-2006, 07:59 PM

No point in going backwards in technology. Always move forward!

Dude, the 7.62x51 is about as literal a step back as they come.

TacoDelRio

11-20-2006, 08:02 PM

Dude, the 7.62x51 is about as literal a step back as they come.

You can poke a hole in a person with it, and the red stuff comes out.

Seems good to me!

(Mags would be shorter than .30-06)

LaoSexMachine

11-20-2006, 08:07 PM

M1 Garand. Simple and get's the job done.

TacoDelRio

11-20-2006, 08:10 PM

M1 Garand. Simple and get's the job done.

You want to replace the M16/M4 series with the Garand?

p-) p-) p-)

Hydro

11-20-2006, 08:11 PM

**** it, bring back the Martini-henry, and the .455 Webley. Sorted the fuzzy wuzzies out.

LaoSexMachine

11-20-2006, 08:12 PM

You want to replace the M16/M4 series with the Garand?

p-) p-) p-)

I can only dream.

TacoDelRio

11-20-2006, 08:13 PM

**** it, bring back the Martini-henry, and the .455 Webley. Sorted the fuzzy wuzzies out.

Two words: Bigass Spears.

If they worked on Wooly Mammoths (Mastadons), then gal darnit, they'll work on terr'ists!

Hydro

11-20-2006, 08:15 PM

gal darnit, they'll work on terr'ists!

Mohammed Al-Jihad and Paddy McBlowup ain't got **** on 8 inches of sharpened flint and 6 feet of finest stick.

BlitzCod

11-20-2006, 08:20 PM

Ok.. Garands 30-06, .455 Wembley, spears.. why not a 45. Peacemaker! But I would dig more of hollywoodstyle M60E3 or 50BMG Barret with secondary weapon like akimbo 50AE D.Eagle? :-)

Mike762

11-20-2006, 08:53 PM

This thread is starting to get a little stupid lets get back on track.
I say bring back the FAL

AFJROTC

11-20-2006, 10:20 PM

HELL NO!!!!!! Its not compatable with the land warrior syestem:backhand:

AFJROTC

11-20-2006, 10:26 PM

IS anyone reading this

TacoDelRio

11-20-2006, 10:27 PM

Are you drunk?

And no.

AFJROTC

11-20-2006, 10:30 PM

YOUR A ****ING ASSHOLE:fork: YOU CANT THINK OF A BETTER NAME THAN TACODELRIO YOUR A DUMB ASS AND LERN HOW TO TALK TO VETERANS DUMBASS

asch

11-20-2006, 10:37 PM

CapsLock dementia fella. you got it.

TacoDelRio

11-20-2006, 10:37 PM

What the hell? Did someone hijack AFJROTC's account?

What if I was a vet?

AFJROTC

11-20-2006, 10:38 PM

:backhand: Yeah were

Ghostryder

11-20-2006, 10:39 PM

YOUR A ****ING ASSHOLE:fork: YOU CANT THINK OF A BETTER NAME THAN TACODELRIO YOUR A DUMB ASS AND LERN HOW TO TALK TO VETERANS DUMBASS

Quoted for "?"

LaoSexMachine

11-20-2006, 10:40 PM

WTF. Garand FTW

TacoDelRio

11-20-2006, 10:40 PM

WTF. Garand FTW

I like a man who sticks to his guns.

AFJROTC

11-20-2006, 10:42 PM

:backhand: What the hell dose that mean

LaoSexMachine

11-20-2006, 10:43 PM

Fine but you inssult me again and we will do this in person:backhand:

On the playground near the monkey bars?

AFJROTC

11-20-2006, 10:44 PM

**** you too:fork:

LaoSexMachine

11-20-2006, 10:46 PM

Dinner and a movie then it's a deal.

AFJROTC

11-20-2006, 10:47 PM

are you ****ing gay You sound like it and if you are thats ****ing nasty

LaoSexMachine

11-20-2006, 10:48 PM

You are the one that proposition.:roll:

asch

11-20-2006, 10:49 PM

it's err... entertaining.
p-)

AFJROTC

11-20-2006, 10:51 PM

Whats so irratating:roll: your gayass dancing bear

nullterm

11-20-2006, 10:58 PM

Someone needs sensitivity training. And it ain't the bear. *hug*

AFJROTC

11-20-2006, 11:01 PM

**** senceitivity it didnot save my ass in Iraq:bash:

LaoSexMachine

11-20-2006, 11:02 PM

**** senceitivity it didnot save my ass in Iraq:bash:

What happen in Iraq? What unit were you with?

ShakesFIST

11-20-2006, 11:03 PM

**** senceitivity it didnot save my ass in Iraq:bash:

Why, what happened to your ass in Iraq?

nullterm

11-20-2006, 11:04 PM

And did it involve lubricants?

AFJROTC

11-20-2006, 11:06 PM

What happen in Iraq? What unit were you with?

First of all nothing happend to my ass its a figure of speach. and I was with A spec ops unit of the green berrets And I got shot:bash:

ShakesFIST

11-20-2006, 11:07 PM

First of all nothing happend to my ass its a figure of speach. and I was with A spec ops unit of the green berrets And I got shot:bash:

Oh ho ho...really?

LaoSexMachine

11-20-2006, 11:07 PM

First of all nothing happend to my ass its a figure of speach. and I was with A spec ops unit of the green berrets And I got shot:bash:

Didn't know they deployed JROTC to Iraq. So what unit? My patience is wearing thin.

asch

11-20-2006, 11:07 PM

in the ass?

DanBarlow

11-20-2006, 11:08 PM

I believe it, I mean what about Afjrotc doesnt scream special forces?

GuLfCoAStKilla1

11-20-2006, 11:09 PM

I agree with what the other man said. Issue the XM-8.

Ghostryder

11-20-2006, 11:09 PM

First of all nothing happend to my ass its a figure of speach. and I was with A spec ops unit of the green berrets And I got shot:bash:

"Hello Darkness my old friend"

Bye kid, it's been fun.

D-gin

11-20-2006, 11:09 PM

First of all nothing happend to my ass its a figure of speach. and I was with A spec ops unit of the green berrets And I got shot:bash:
Wow you must know some really hi speed folks huh.

Zeke I think this served with UDT as well.

AFJROTC

11-20-2006, 11:11 PM

I started in JROTC thats wy my Screen name ****er. And no I did not get shot in the ass it was my abdomen just below the rib cage:backhand: :bash: :fork:

ShakesFIST

11-20-2006, 11:12 PM

Wow you must know some really hi speed folks huh.

His unit was attached to my corporations* team in the sandbox. Hes legit.

*see avatar/profile pic :)

AFJROTC

11-20-2006, 11:13 PM

Wow you must know some really hi speed folks huh.

Zeke I think this served with UDT as well.

What rank are/ were you Im a captan

LaoSexMachine

11-20-2006, 11:13 PM

I started in JROTC thats wy my Screen name ****er. And no I did not get shot in the ass it was my abdomen just below the rib cage:backhand: :bash: :fork:

What unit? ..................

D-gin

11-20-2006, 11:14 PM

His unit was attached to my corporations* team in the sandbox. Hes legit.

*see avatar/profile pic :)

Yeah your Company has a sh!t load of experience from what I understand.p-)

Good to know that he's Legit.

asch

11-20-2006, 11:15 PM

I started in JROTC thats wy my Screen name ****er. And no I did not get shot in the ass it was my abdomen just below the rib cage:backhand: :bash: :fork:
sorry for you.
but it's not explain your stupid behavior here.
have respect to people and they threat you right.

ShakesFIST

11-20-2006, 11:15 PM

AFJROTC....back up what your saying with SOMETHING or fess up and hope for mercy.

D-gin

11-20-2006, 11:16 PM

What rank are/ were you Im a captan

Glad to know that.....SIR.

LaoSexMachine

11-20-2006, 11:16 PM

sorry for you.
but it's not explain your stupid behavior here.
have respect to people and they threat you right.

He's full of shyt. Don't believe his ass.

AFJROTC

11-20-2006, 11:17 PM

sorry for you.
but it's not explain your stupid behavior here.
have respect to people and they threat you right.

Sorry about that and thanks bad times make bad people sometimes

LaoSexMachine

11-20-2006, 11:18 PM

What rank are/ were you Im a captan

Crunch?...................For someone who's an officer you sure have shytty grammer.

Aerosoul

11-20-2006, 11:18 PM

What rank are/ were you Im a captan

Captain* dumbass.

You started in JROTC, hence the screenname. OK. But why would you want JROTC in your screenname if you had finished that **** long ago?
You just signed up here and claim to be a CPT who served with an SOF unit?

asch

11-20-2006, 11:18 PM

He's full of shyt. Don't believe his ass.
i'm rather suspicious fella by nature. )

Ghostryder

11-20-2006, 11:18 PM

http://img89.imageshack.us/img89/6551/captaincoolgp2.jpg (http://imageshack.us)

This type of captain?

D-gin

11-20-2006, 11:19 PM

@Zeke have you notified CHOPS yet??????

AFJROTC

11-20-2006, 11:19 PM

Crunch?...................For someone who's an officer you sure have shytty grammer.

Only on the computer I dont type much:bash: :backhand: :fork:

ShakesFIST

11-20-2006, 11:19 PM

Crunch?...................For someone who's an officer you sure have shytty grammer.

CaptaIn's outrank grammer...and spelling.

LaoSexMachine

11-20-2006, 11:19 PM

AFJROTC, you are a fvcking POSER

AFJROTC

11-20-2006, 11:20 PM

http://img89.imageshack.us/img89/6551/captaincoolgp2.jpg (http://imageshack.us)

This type of captain?

No the kind that would beat the **** out of you for this

Aerosoul

11-20-2006, 11:20 PM

AFJROTC, you are a fvcking POSER
x2. how you doing Zeke, ready to bust another one?

Whitcomb

11-20-2006, 11:21 PM

i smell pwnage.......(but that may just be me...)

(yup its me, damn beans for dinner...:-P)

LaoSexMachine

11-20-2006, 11:21 PM

x2. how you doing Zeke, ready to bust another one?

Good. I'm always down.

ShakesFIST

11-20-2006, 11:22 PM

AFJROTC, you are a fvcking POSER

Seriously AFJROTC, for your own sake post some credentials/history/units/anything. I'm being nicer than anyone here probably will.

AFJROTC

11-20-2006, 11:23 PM

What one do you want

ShakesFIST

11-20-2006, 11:24 PM

What one do you want

Anything that could point to you as anything but a poser (all signs point to poser right now)

D-gin

11-20-2006, 11:25 PM

What one do you want

How about all of the above, And my I suggest the you PM them to a MOD as well.

LaoSexMachine

11-20-2006, 11:25 PM

What one do you want

When were you in Basra? Go to SOCNET so they can confirm who you are. Until then "Poser" stays.

KillerBD

11-20-2006, 11:26 PM

Just going by what some people have saide in previous posts. But when you read or hear about a modern military assault rifle having "plastic furnature" this does not mean it is made out of the same crap you computers keyboard is. It is made from plastic polymer, which is a special kind of glass reinforced plastic which is very durable, flexable, light-weight, and heat resistant. Which basically means it is better than the older wooden furnature of the past.
Sorry but I'm just clarifying for those who don't know.

ShakesFIST

11-20-2006, 11:27 PM

Ghostryder

11-20-2006, 11:27 PM

No the kind that would beat the **** out of you for this

I'm waiting

Aerosoul

11-20-2006, 11:28 PM

I'm waiting
be careful. those who threaten via the internet are a very special breed...

but by special i mean f*cking retarded.

Apogee

11-20-2006, 11:28 PM

Only on the computer I dont type much:bash: :backhand: :fork:

Because officers NEVER have to use Formflow or type up reports. OhHHhhhH wait, thats right. I use that **** all the time. How about we start out with the basics crazy, what year group are you?

AFJROTC

11-20-2006, 11:28 PM

AFJROTC

11-20-2006, 11:29 PM

I'm waiting

What for what:bash:

ShakesFIST

11-20-2006, 11:31 PM

What for what:bash:

Ok basics...on your last M4 qualification how many of the 60 metal targets did you hit?

Ghostryder

11-20-2006, 11:32 PM

be careful. those who threaten via the internet are a very special breed...

but by special i mean f*cking retarded.

What lurks behind his avatar? Heheh

Ghostryder

11-20-2006, 11:33 PM

What for what:bash:

A smilie hitting another smilie with a stick, I guess

KillerBD

11-20-2006, 11:33 PM

Quit getting off topic! ;)

I Did not write that

Complaining about me being "off topic" I hope you are joking :roll:

And no S**t you "did not write that" whats your point.

I was just clarifying for people who didn't know, sorry for the trouble:petting:

AFJROTC

11-20-2006, 11:36 PM

Ok basics...on your last M4 qualification how many of the 60 metal targets did you hit?

about 40 out of 60

Aerosoul

11-20-2006, 11:36 PM

about 40 out of 60

about? i think i'd remember exactly.

California Joe

11-20-2006, 11:37 PM

What for what:bash:

Jesus, you are either drunk or ignorant or both. You're not even credible as a poser. You got about 5 minutes to explain yourself or I'm banning you before I go to bed.

Apogee

11-20-2006, 11:38 PM

about 40 out of 60

haha. Thats classic

AFJROTC

11-20-2006, 11:39 PM

about? i think i'd remember exactly.

fine call me a poser I dont give a **** anymore

Aerosoul

11-20-2006, 11:40 PM

you lose. goodbye.
go play pretend-Special Forces Captain-who-got-shot-in-Iraq in a gaming clan or something.
Trying this at a military foum is the dumbest move you can make.

LRPV

11-20-2006, 11:40 PM

In before lock-down.p-)

Ghostryder

11-20-2006, 11:40 PM

You know what's funny AFJROTC?

Even if, by some freak imbalance in the space-time continuum you did end up to be a highly decorated Special Forces Captain, I'd still have absolutly no respect for you.

You have ruined a perfectly good thread.

that is all.

Good Night.

ShakesFIST

11-20-2006, 11:41 PM

fine call me aposer I dont give a **** anymore

Hes just trying to get a straight answer. All military rifle ranges are the same. You would know how many of the 60 metal pop up targets you hit at the last range (army, air force, they all use the same ranges)

Apogee

11-20-2006, 11:41 PM

fine call me a poser I dont give a **** anymore

Dude, Army quals on a 40 target course.

Aerosoul

11-20-2006, 11:42 PM

Dude, Army quals on a 40 target course.
lol. slick.

LaoSexMachine

11-20-2006, 11:42 PM

fine call me a poser I dont give a **** anymore

Still waiting on your timeline in Basra.

ShakesFIST

11-20-2006, 11:43 PM

Dude, Army quals on a 40 target course.

ssshhhh....quiet

Nevins

11-20-2006, 11:43 PM

wasnt there another person on these boards with a name like AFJROTC?

LRPV

11-20-2006, 11:44 PM

Is this the 3rd fake in two weeks exposed on this site? Shakes my head and wonder...:roll:

D-gin

11-20-2006, 11:44 PM

It was very nice talking to AFJROTC try not to get shot.....Oh to late.

California Joe

11-20-2006, 11:44 PM

2 minutes left.....

Aerosoul

11-20-2006, 11:44 PM

wasnt there another person on these boards with a name like AFJROTC?

yeah, add a double knickel to the end of the username.

Apogee

11-20-2006, 11:45 PM

lol. slick.

I was pointing it out to the posa. Everyone who's even been to basic knows that. Him even responding to the 60 target range is an obvious clue hes full of crap

LRPV

11-20-2006, 11:45 PM

ssshhhh....quiet

PS... nicely set up Shakesfist.:)

Aerosoul

11-20-2006, 11:45 PM

Is this the 3rd fake in two weeks exposed on this site? Shakes my head and wonder...:roll:
Meh. Two in one day actually. The other guy was in the Army, just a complete dumbass.

AFJROTC

11-20-2006, 11:46 PM

yeah, add a double knickel to the end of the username.

**** ALL OF YOU AND I HOPE YOU ALL DIE A HORRABLE DEATH:fork:

California Joe

11-20-2006, 11:46 PM

wasnt there another person on these boards with a name like AFJROTC?

I thought there was too. But I don't remember him being a gobsh*te.

Aerosoul

11-20-2006, 11:46 PM

I was pointing it out to the posa. Everyone who's even been to basic knows that. Him even responding to the 60 target range is an obvious clue hes full of crap

yeah, yeah, i caught that. always a nice way to expose someone with a question like that.

Nevins

11-20-2006, 11:46 PM

k thought so..

Dude, Army quals on a 40 target course.

hahah..nice

Apogee

11-20-2006, 11:46 PM

ssshhhh....quiet

sorry about that bro. didnt realize you guys were still trying to play it out

ShakesFIST

11-20-2006, 11:47 PM

sorry about that bro. didnt realize you guys were still trying to play it out

I was just trying to see how it all worked out. :)

Ghostryder

11-20-2006, 11:47 PM

**** ALL OF YOU AND I HOPE YOU ALL DIE A HORRABLE DEATH:fork:

Classic.
123

asch

11-20-2006, 11:48 PM

tick-tock...

Apogee

11-20-2006, 11:48 PM

yeah, yeah, i caught that. always a nice way to expose someone with a question like that.

thats why i asked about year group to find out about his officer-ness

asch

11-20-2006, 11:48 PM

HORRABLE DEATH:fork:
horrible yet honorable?