View Full Version : American and other Western weapons used by Communist nations or factions.
Which Communist or former Communist countries and terrorist or revolutionary groups used American and other Western manufactured weaponry (small arms and also tanks, artillery, aircraft, naval vessels, etc.)?
StukaJr
06-27-2006, 04:21 PM
That's a little broad, but overall answer would be "every single one" - considering the overall reliance on captured/hand me down equipment and that most of the "Communist" revolutions happened in the countries colonized by the West.
REMOV
06-27-2006, 04:46 PM
Which Communist or former Communist countries and terrorist or revolutionary groups used American and other Western manufactured weaponry (small arms and also tanks, artillery, aircraft, naval vessels, etc.)?Vietnam, Laos, Cambodia, Yugoslavia (M3A3 Stuart, M4A3E3 Sherman, M47 Patton tanks, M2 and M3A1 halftracks, artillery, F-86 Thunderflash fighter-bombers), Soviet Union (Lend Lease Act).
Blarney
06-27-2006, 05:54 PM
dont forget captured weapons, such as the M16A1, and there are several countries that use the Thompson, and several other WW2 weapons.
TacoDelRio
06-27-2006, 06:40 PM
Lotsa G3's by POF or HK floating around Africa, not to mention FAL's of all races and creeds...
That's a little broad, but overall answer would be "every single one" - considering the overall reliance on captured/hand me down equipment and that most of the "Communist" revolutions happened in the countries colonized by the West.
I was wondering particularly, but admittedly not exclusively, about Third World nations. Maybe even Latin America.
dont forget captured weapons, such as the M16A1, and there are several countries that use the Thompson, and several other WW2 weapons.
What countries are you referring to?
What countries are you referring to?
ex yugoslavia used the thompson, even in the 91/95 civil war...
dont forget captured weapons, such as the M16A1, and there are several countries that use the Thompson, and several other WW2 weapons.
Didn't Ethiopia under Mengistu give it's Thompsons as military aid to the El Salvadorian FMLN?
Blarney
06-28-2006, 09:41 PM
Several African and SE Asian countries have used the Thompson and other US weapons form WW2....
Several African and SE Asian countries have used the Thompson and other US weapons form WW2....
Thanks. Do you have a list?
A lot of m1/m2 carbines were captured in Vietnam. A lot of them floating around central/south America as well...
gaijinsamurai
06-29-2006, 11:05 AM
In Sandinista-era Nicaragua, the army was largely equipped with FALs and Galils, acquirred during the rule of the dictator Somoza.
gaijinsamurai
06-29-2006, 11:06 AM
San Francisco PD uses Western-manufactured firearms.
China use the Hägglunds BV 206 but dont know how meany
Chinese BV 206
http://img215.imageshack.us/img215/8318/114962631384010dy.jpg
foxtrot023
06-29-2006, 11:46 AM
Iran uses M60s and F14s.
Iran uses M60s and F14s.
Democratic People's Republic of Iran? ;-)
In Sandinista-era Nicaragua, the army was largely equipped with FALs and Galils, acquirred during the rule of the dictator Somoza.
At first. After a while, those weapons were largely replaced by Kalashnikovs. In fact, I've heard that the Soviets promised to give the Sandinistas two AKs for each Western rifle they give to the FMLN. BTW, I believe those FALs came largely from Cuba and maybe also Venezuela. Also, the EPS had M-16s too. Some from the Somoza regime, some from Vietnam.
A lot of m1/m2 carbines were captured in Vietnam. A lot of them floating around central/south America as well...
Could you give some examples about the latter?
The Contras in Nicaragua (US backed), Cuban Rebels (US backed), Ecuador Government (US backed), El Salvador rebels (US backed)
Che Guevara was killed by a m2 carbine in 1967 - but that was by the Bolivian Army. Che might also have been armed with a Carbine but I cannot confirm that.
The Contras in Nicaragua (US backed), Cuban Rebels (US backed), Ecuador Government (US backed), El Salvador rebels (US backed)
Che Guevara was killed by a m2 carbine in 1967 - but that was by the Bolivian Army. Che might also have been armed with a Carbine but I cannot confirm that.
Actually the El Salvadorian rebels (FMLN) were Soviet and Cuban backed, it was the Salvadorian government that was US backed.
Oddbod
06-29-2006, 10:10 PM
FN-FAL:
Cuba & Venezuela for a start.
KVLG,
My mistake - you are correct. The government recieved a large order of m1/m2 carbines. However the rebels captured quite a few - there was a very famous Time article done on them featuring a female guerilla with a carbine on her lap.
random google search found a similar picture - recent too! Kid is a rebel...
http://www.danieltv.com/gallery/albums/central-america/a495978_R1_E003.sized.jpg
KVLG,
My mistake - you are correct. The government recieved a large order of m1/m2 carbines. However the rebels captured quite a few - there was a very famous Time article done on them featuring a female guerilla with a carbine on her lap.
random google search found a similar picture - recent too! Kid is a rebel...
http://www.danieltv.com/gallery/albums/central-america/a495978_R1_E003.sized.jpg
What group is he from?
Unfortunately the caption only says, "young guerrilla fighter in El Salvador" - doesn't specify which group, sorry!
gaijinsamurai
06-30-2006, 08:24 AM
You are correct in regards to the Nicaraguan Sandinistas receiving Soviet AKs and other weapons (including MI-24 Hind-D gunships) later on. I suppose I should have included that info in my post.
Ernesto "Che" Guevara carried an M1 carbine during the Cuban Revolution. I've seen the actual weapon on display in "el Museo de la Revolucion" in Havana.
Regarding the Salvadoran kid cleaning the carbine, if he's a rebel, it can be assumed he's with the FMLN, but which particular faction (the FMLN was composed of five groups) is probably impossible to tell.
I've also seen photos of FMLN insurgents carrying FN FALS (supplied by Cuba) and HK G3s and M16A1s (captured by government troops). It has also been reported that M16s with serial #s matching rifles lost during the Vietnam War turned up in the hands of FMLN guerillas; gifts from the Vietnamese.
foxtrot023
06-30-2006, 10:13 AM
The Contras in Nicaragua (US backed), Cuban Rebels (US backed), Ecuador Government (US backed), El Salvador rebels (US backed)
Che Guevara was killed by a m2 carbine in 1967 - but that was by the Bolivian Army. Che might also have been armed with a Carbine but I cannot confirm that.
Just to mention that the US was backing the Salvadorean gov. not the rebels
Ordie
06-30-2006, 03:38 PM
Romania During the Cold War:
Aluette III, and Puma Helicopters
Boeing 707
China (PLA)
Roland SAM
Dauphin Helicopters
Super Frelon Helicopters
Boeing 707
Vietnam
Everything that was left behind by the Americans including F-5E, A-37B,and UH-1 Helicopters.
North Korea
Hughes-500 Defender Helicopters (bought through a third party)
Yugoslavia
F-86 Sabre
Unfortunately the caption only says, "young guerrilla fighter in El Salvador" - doesn't specify which group, sorry!
When exactly was that photo taken? It must have been during the 80s', because El Salvador hasn't been at civil war for years.
gaijinsamurai
07-02-2006, 12:09 PM
Regarding the photo of the FMLN kid, and when it was taken, it is probably impossible to tell for sure. But IF (and it's A BIG "IF"), it can be assumed that the M16A1 in the background is one that has been captured from government forces, that would make it likey to have been taken after the mid-'80s when M16A1s replaced HKG3s as the principle service rifle for the Salvadoran Army.
Regarding the photo of the FMLN kid, and when it was taken, it is probably impossible to tell for sure. But IF (and it's A BIG "IF"), it can be assumed that the M16A1 in the background is one that has been captured from government forces, that would make it likey to have been taken after the mid-'80s when M16A1s replaced HKG3s as the principle service rifle for the Salvadoran Army.
Maybe...but it could well have been taken at any time in the conflict.
BTW, didn't the FMLN get other weapons from Vietnam, Angola, and Ethiopia?
gaijinsamurai
07-03-2006, 12:27 AM
Yes, the M16 could have been taken at any time during the conflict. That's why I stressed the word "IF" in my previous post.
I have heard that the FMLN received arms from Vietnam. I don't know about other countries. After 1975, Ethiopia was ruled by Marxists, who had overthrown Haille Salasie.
Yes, the M16 could have been taken at any time during the conflict. That's why I stressed the word "IF" in my previous post.
I have heard that the FMLN received arms from Vietnam. I don't know about other countries. After 1975, Ethiopia was ruled by Marxists, who had overthrown Haille Salasie.
Have you heard of the State Department's White Paper "Communist Interference in El Salvador"? It talked about various Communist countries support for the FMLN in the early 1980s', before their 81' offensive. It stated that Mengistu gave the FMLN a shipment of arms consisting of 1,500 M1 rifles, 1,000 M14 rifles, and 150 Thompson subguns.
gaijinsamurai
07-03-2006, 03:03 AM
Yes, the State Department's (in)famous El Salvador Whitepaper didn't have a lot of credibility, however.
Yes, the State Department's (in)famous El Salvador Whitepaper didn't have a lot of credibility, however.
Maybe because the pro-FMLN Left did their best to try to smear it. It was right about M-16 rifles from Vietnam being sent to the FMLN.
gaijinsamurai
07-03-2006, 09:39 PM
Well, just because there were some elements of truth to the document didn't make it credible. The "White paper" has been pretty much dismissed as having any credibility across the political spectrum.
Hollis
07-03-2006, 09:53 PM
Maybe because the pro-FMLN Left did their best to try to smear it. It was right about M-16 rifles from Vietnam being sent to the FMLN.
I don't think so, There was also the FDR. Cuba... was shipping stuff from where ever they got it.
From the Sadinistas to the El Salvador...
gaijinsamurai
07-03-2006, 10:02 PM
Everyone is pretty much in agreement that the FMLN received arms from other countries and left-wing groups. You won't find any disagreements on that issue. However, the State Department's "White Paper" was a gross exaggeration of the amount of help the FMLN received.
I spent quite a bit of time in Central America during that era, and have been to El Salvador three times, including a stint with the UN Observer mission in the early '90s. I saw lots of evidence of Eastern Bloc, Nicaraguan, and Cuban aid to the guerillas, but have NEVER seen any evidence that they had Thompsons, M1s, and the other weaponry the White Paper claimed.
The White Paper really was a low point in State Department PR. They slapped something together which they didn't think would receive any scrutiny, and didn't even bother to do so much as a half-assed job on checking their facts before releasing it to the public. It ended up embarrassing conservatives and giving the liberals a field day.
Hollis
07-03-2006, 10:10 PM
Everyone is pretty much in agreement that the FMLN received arms from other countries and left-wing groups. You won't find any disagreements on that issue. However, the State Department's "White Paper" was a gross exaggeration of the amount of help the FMLN received.
I spent quite a bit of time in Central America during that era, and have been to El Salvador three times, including a stint with the UN Observer mission in the early '90s. I saw lots of evidence of Eastern Bloc, Nicaraguan, and Cuban aid to the guerillas, but have NEVER seen any evidence that they had Thompsons, M1s, and the other weaponry the White Paper claimed.
The White Paper really was a low point in State Department PR. They slapped something together which they didn't think would receive any scrutiny, and didn't even bother to do so much as a half-assed job on checking their facts before releasing it to the public. It ended up embarrassing conservatives and giving the liberals a field day.
I was in El Salvador in the 60's.. Same time our ambassador was assassinate in San Salvador. Different times. Probably by the 90's a lot of US stuff was worthless, capture, destroyed or broken.
gaijinsamurai
07-03-2006, 10:40 PM
Interesting! Where were you in El Salvador? I was in Chaletanango Province and in the town of Sonsonate. I mostly hung out in San Salvador, though.
El Salvador is my favorite country in Latin America, with Mexico being a close second.
Back in January, my wife and I visited El Salvador, and I took her to some of my favorite places and (most of) my old hangouts.
The beach at La Libertad/Sunzal is still one of the best in the world, in my opinion (although I've never been to SE Asia-which may have even better).
I saw lots of evidence of Eastern Bloc, Nicaraguan, and Cuban aid to the guerillas, but have NEVER seen any evidence that they had Thompsons, M1s, and the other weaponry the White Paper claimed.
The White Paper really was a low point in State Department PR. They slapped something together which they didn't think would receive any scrutiny, and didn't even bother to do so much as a half-assed job on checking their facts before releasing it to the public. It ended up embarrassing conservatives and giving the liberals a field day.
Actually, the FMLN DID indeed have Thompson subguns. Take a look at the following IRSAIS article "Weapons of the FMLN-Part One" by Lawrence J. Whelan that I posted on the newsgroup us.military.army:
http://groups.google.com/group/us.military.army/browse_frm/thread/961b690326cef01a/6296bb862fed93b5?lnk=st&q=%22FMLN%22+AND+%22THompson&rnum=2#6296bb862fed93b5
Mr. Whelan states the following: " In the course of this study we also documented several Thompson submachine guns, a single M3Al "Grease gun" and a single Star Model Z-62."
There was also a pic in the book "Strategy and Tactics of the Salvadorian FMLN Guerillas", by Jose Angel Moroni Bracamonte & David E. Spencer which showed a pic of several early period FMLN guerillas-one of whom was armed with a M1 Garand.
Considering the fact that the Mengistu regime would no doubt be interested in at least mostly replacing the American and other Western weaponry with East Bloc stuff, they would have to find someplace to dump the Free World hardware...so why not give it away to a friendly guerilla group?
Could you please tell me more about the evidence of East Bloc, Cuban and Nicaraguan support to the FMLN?
Also, don't you think that the FMLN could indeed have went to the countries mentioned and obtained the amount and type of weapons and equipment? Even though much of the rest of the White Paper could indeed be riddled with errors?
Hollis
07-04-2006, 02:10 AM
Interesting! Where were you in El Salvador? I was in Chaletanango Province and in the town of Sonsonate. I mostly hung out in San Salvador, though.
El Salvador is my favorite country in Latin America, with Mexico being a close second.
Back in January, my wife and I visited El Salvador, and I took her to some of my favorite places and (most of) my old hangouts.
The beach at La Libertad/Sunzal is still one of the best in the world, in my opinion (although I've never been to SE Asia-which may have even better).
I was at La Union, it was a poor dieing city, it was a sea port, till a yankee investor backed the building of a new sea port on the coast. It was in the South, on the Gulf of Fonseca. That gulf was a interesting junction, El Salvador, Honduras and Nicraragua.
Nice Beaches there, I like Costa Rica best.
gaijinsamurai
07-04-2006, 09:25 AM
I spent a night in La Union once. Very hot and humid.
I was at La Union, it was a poor dieing city, it was a sea port, till a yankee investor backed the building of a new sea port on the coast. It was in the South, on the Gulf of Fonseca. That gulf was a interesting junction, El Salvador, Honduras and Nicraragua.
Nice Beaches there, I like Costa Rica best.
HOw is La Union today?
I spent a night in La Union once. Very hot and humid.
When was that?
gaijinsamurai
07-05-2006, 10:15 AM
It was either 1993 or 1994.
gaijinsamurai
07-05-2006, 10:23 AM
I haven't been to La Union since the early 1990's, but when I was there, it was pretty much a "backwater" town. Most of El Salvador east of San Miguel is somewhat remote. Now that the Salvadoran and Nicaraguan guerrilla wars are over, and tension between El Salvador and Nicaragua is a thing of the past, La Union and the Gulf of Fonseca might have more potential for trade.
One thing about El Salvador, is that it is damn hot. With the exception of the mountainous north (Chalatenango, Morazan, and Cabanas Departments), it gets uncomfortably warm there, especially in La Union. The beaches farther west, most notably around La Libertad, are far superior. so those areas tend to attract a greater number of tourists, which are few to begin with. If El Salvador can rid itself of its gang problem (and they are doing a better job of that than the Guatemalans or Hondurans seem to be), the country has a lot of potential.
Hollis
07-05-2006, 11:25 AM
I haven't been to La Union since the early 1990's, but when I was there, it was pretty much a "backwater" town. Most of El Salvador east of San Miguel is somewhat remote. Now that the Salvadoran and Nicaraguan guerrilla wars are over, and tension between El Salvador and Nicaragua is a thing of the past, La Union and the Gulf of Fonseca might have more potential for trade.
One thing about El Salvador, is that it is damn hot. With the exception of the mountainous north (Chalatenango, Morazan, and Cabanas Departments), it gets uncomfortably warm there, especially in La Union. The beaches farther west, most notably around La Libertad, are far superior. so those areas tend to attract a greater number of tourists, which are few to begin with. If El Salvador can rid itself of its gang problem (and they are doing a better job of that than the Guatemalans or Hondurans seem to be), the country has a lot of potential.
One of the problem with La Union is the shifting bars going into it. The El Salvadoran coast guard would pilot ships in to La Union. That is why a sea port was built on the coast. The difference in sea level of the tide is pretty great there too.
I haven't been to La Union since the early 1990's, but when I was there, it was pretty much a "backwater" town. Most of El Salvador east of San Miguel is somewhat remote. Now that the Salvadoran and Nicaraguan guerrilla wars are over, and tension between El Salvador and Nicaragua is a thing of the past, La Union and the Gulf of Fonseca might have more potential for trade.
One thing about El Salvador, is that it is damn hot. With the exception of the mountainous north (Chalatenango, Morazan, and Cabanas Departments), it gets uncomfortably warm there, especially in La Union. The beaches farther west, most notably around La Libertad, are far superior. so those areas tend to attract a greater number of tourists, which are few to begin with. If El Salvador can rid itself of its gang problem (and they are doing a better job of that than the Guatemalans or Hondurans seem to be), the country has a lot of potential.
Hopefully, they'll realize that potnetial. However, if the Sandinistas should ever retake power, it could well be the bad old days once again. Any thoughts on that possibility?
BTW, what did you think of the article I linked to this thread?
gaijinsamurai
07-05-2006, 10:09 PM
Even IF the Sandinistas were to take power again (which is a possibility), Nicaragua won't go back to the way things were like back in the 1980's. The country has developed and prospered too much for people to tolerate any bullshiat.
gaijinsamurai
07-05-2006, 10:14 PM
Interesting article, KVLG.
Most of the AKs I saw in El Salvador were of East German origin. But, I doubt they were manufactured in 1934, as the article states. Perhaps it was a typo.
Interesting article, KVLG.
Most of the AKs I saw in El Salvador were of East German origin. But, I doubt they were manufactured in 1934, as the article states. Perhaps it was a typo.
Yeah, I believe so. In fact, I think the author meant 1984, not 1934. Peter Kokalis (ever hear of him?) stated in a Soldier of Fortune article that the MpiKMS-72s he looked at were made in '84, I think. I believe you said that most or all of the DDR AKs were MpiKMS-72s (side-folder stock AKM). Were there any other models?
Even IF the Sandinistas were to take power again (which is a possibility), Nicaragua won't go back to the way things were like back in the 1980's. The country has developed and prospered too much for people to tolerate any bullshiat.
Hopefully. But then again, Venezuela has had somewhat of a history of democracy-and development and prosperity-and look what Chavez is doing right now. In fact, I have heard that a poll stated one time that the only two countries where democracy has had real strong support were Uruguay and Costa Rica. The Sandinistas would certainly do their best to increase the size of the state-owned sector, though...would they not?
gaijinsamurai
07-06-2006, 10:09 AM
Of course I've heard of Peter Kokalis! Along with Dale Dye and Steve Salisbury, he was the best thing SOF had going for it. I don't know of anyone who is more knowledgable about military weapons, and I wish he still wrote for SOF.
It has been so long since I've spent any time in Nicaragua that it is hard for me to comment on the country based on anything other than what I've heard other people say.
As far as democracy in Latin America goes, I think El Salvador has a bright future. Salvadorans have put up with too much BS from extremists on the right as well as the left to have the patience with a demogogue.
I just hope they can solve their gang problem effectively.
As far as specific AK models I have seen in El Salvador, it's been too long (12 years) to remember specifics clearly. Sorry!
Ordie
07-06-2006, 01:46 PM
Even IF the Sandinistas were to take power again (which is a possibility), Nicaragua won't go back to the way things were like back in the 1980's. The country has developed and prospered too much for people to tolerate any bullshiat.
I was in Nicaragua in the late 1990's with an NGO. I had a chance to have lunch with many mid to top level folks within the Government, Sandinista Party, and the Miskito Nation. From my discussions, there is a general feeling that war and conflict was not the answer. All parties have pretty much forgave each other regardless of the atrocities committed.
During my lunch with Sandinista leadership, they admitted to many mistakes, more specifically how they treated the Miskitos, and how Cubans, who were far more zealous in political thinking, interfered in local affairs. They liked Amercians an often mentioned that during the Contra war flights from Miami were more filled with volunteers than the flights from Havana.
Currently they are more pragmatic on the need to develop an economic base as a premise to support basic goods and services. The one thing they were most upset about is not the loss of power, but how many foriegn volunteers, mostly Americans, left soon after the results of the elections when the nation needed them the most.
Of course I've heard of Peter Kokalis! Along with Dale Dye and Steve Salisbury, he was the best thing SOF had going for it. I don't know of anyone who is more knowledgable about military weapons, and I wish he still wrote for SOF.
It has been so long since I've spent any time in Nicaragua that it is hard for me to comment on the country based on anything other than what I've heard other people say.
As far as democracy in Latin America goes, I think El Salvador has a bright future. Salvadorans have put up with too much BS from extremists on the right as well as the left to have the patience with a demogogue.
I just hope they can solve their gang problem effectively.
As far as specific AK models I have seen in El Salvador, it's been too long (12 years) to remember specifics clearly. Sorry!
Well, I believe that Kokalis now writes for Shotgun News. I hope you're right about Salvadorian democracy working out. As for remembering specific AK models clearly, I understand. BTW, do you happen to know if the FMLN had any older Com Bloc hardware like SKS carbines, PPSh41 or PPS43 subguns, or M44 bolt-action Mosin Nagant rifles?
I was in Nicaragua in the late 1990's with an NGO. I had a chance to have lunch with many mid to top level folks within the Government, Sandinista Party, and the Miskito Nation. From my discussions, there is a general feeling that war and conflict was not the answer. All parties have pretty much forgave each other regardless of the atrocities committed.
During my lunch with Sandinista leadership, they admitted to many mistakes, more specifically how they treated the Miskitos, and how Cubans, who were far more zealous in political thinking, interfered in local affairs. They liked Amercians an often mentioned that during the Contra war flights from Miami were more filled with volunteers than the flights from Havana.
Currently they are more pragmatic on the need to develop an economic base as a premise to support basic goods and services. The one thing they were most upset about is not the loss of power, but how many foriegn volunteers, mostly Americans, left soon after the results of the elections when the nation needed them the most.
Well, the late 90's leadership may like America, (or at least pretend likke they do) but I don't know about the 1980s' leadership. After all, the Sandinista anthem back then stated "We shall fight against the Yankee, the enemy of humanity".
gaijinsamurai
07-06-2006, 09:06 PM
To answer your first question, KVLG, I really don't know about older Eastern-bloc weapons in the FMLN inventory. SKSs are a possibility, but I am somewhat doubtful about Mosin-Nagants, PPSh-41s and other older arms, mostly due to the logistics nightmare they would likely cause for their ammo requirements.
Yeah, I remember the Sandinista anthem. I wouldn't put too much weight on it though. It was kind of a symbol of the times.
Perhaps we were in Nicaragua at the same time, Ordie. I was only there for Samana Santa though, when I had a break from my job with the UN in El Salvador. I visited Lyon and Managua. I've heard things have gotten much better there since I visited the country, back in 1994.
To answer your first question, KVLG, I really don't know about older Eastern-bloc weapons in the FMLN inventory. SKSs are a possibility, but I am somewhat doubtful about Mosin-Nagants, PPSh-41s and other older arms, mostly due to the logistics nightmare they would likely cause for their ammo requirements.
Yeah, I remember the Sandinista anthem. I wouldn't put too much weight on it though. It was kind of a symbol of the times.
Perhaps we were in Nicaragua at the same time, Ordie. I was only there for Samana Santa though, when I had a break from my job with the UN in El Salvador. I visited Lyon and Managua. I've heard things have gotten much better there since I visited the country, back in 1994.
Well, the FMLN had SVD sharpshooter rifles, which used the same caliber as the Mosin-Nagant. They also had some TOkarev pistols, which used the same caliber as the PPSh. Basically, they used a eclectic assortment of calibers, thus it would probably be somewhat late to worry about logistic nightmares, IMO. Besides, many Third WOrld nations probably have a significant variety of calibers in their inventories. Also, Sandinista Nicaragua had Mosin-Nagants and PPShs in their inventory.
PS-here's another posted article you may be interested in:
http://groups.google.com/group/sci.military.moderated/browse_frm/thread/afaa79ffbbd9d555/a9871d70525c86a6?lnk=st&q=%22Weapons+of+the+FMLN%22&rnum=2#a9871d70525c86a6
Also, what do you mean when you said the infamous Sandinista anthem was 'the symbol of the times'? Are you saying that the Sandinistas really weren't hostile to the US back then?
gaijinsamurai
07-07-2006, 10:52 AM
I think "hostility" comes in different forms. They were a mild nuisance, but hardly a threat.
I don't think Sandinista soldiers were ever going to land on Florida beaches. True, they may have given some support to other regional revolutionary groups, but that was a drop in the bucket compared to the massive amounts of aid the US gave to friendly regimes.
Since even before the days of Villa and Zapata, it has been fashionable to "hate the Yankee" in Latin America; but with the exception of a few people like Hugo Chavez, Evo Morales, Che Guavara, and Daniel Ortega, the fixation with Marxism and "international worker solidarity" usually wears of after university with most Latinos.
Hollis
07-07-2006, 11:40 AM
I think "hostility" comes in different forms. They were a mild nuisance, but hardly a threat.
I don't think Sandinista soldiers were ever going to land on Florida beaches. True, they may have given some support to other regional revolutionary groups, but that was a drop in the bucket compared to the massive amounts of aid the US gave to friendly regimes.
Since even before the days of Villa and Zapata, it has been fashionable to "hate the Yankee" in Latin America; but with the exception of a few people like Hugo Chavez, Evo Morales, Che Guavara, and Daniel Ortega, the fixation with Marxism and "international worker solidarity" usually wears of after university with most Latinos.
yep, Marxism seems to the religion of some hopeless romantic, Example a quote by Ernesto Guevara, "Let me say at the point of seemingly ridiculous. That the true revolutionary is motivated by the great feelings of love."
United fruit company and obviously the "cold war insanity" did not help either.
I think your correct on the problem with a "Sandanista" type country is that they will support trouble in some other Latin country. It may never amount to much, but it is still needless trouble.
There are still lots of changes that need to be made, some of the older cultures are based on what we would call Corruption, to them it is how they survive.
This may be old news, I have not paid much attention to CA and SA for some time. I think the death of Lassiez Faire Capitalism was also the end for Marxism. THe "free market mechanism" has evolved to a acceptable system for almost any political system wanting to move forward.
gaijinsamurai
07-07-2006, 01:00 PM
So true, Hollis. Sadly, one thing that will probably never change in Latin America is the huge gap between the haves and have-nots. This will inevitably result in a perpetual feeling of resentment and anger, and be a ripe environment for "class struggle" indoctrination. Perhaps 100 years from now, people will have forgotten about Marx, but the attempt to "rob from the rich and give to the poor" will probably have a new label, with new slogans, martyrs, and symbols.
Hollis
07-07-2006, 01:18 PM
So true, Hollis. Sadly, one thing that will probably never change in Latin America is the huge gap between the haves and have-nots. This will inevitably result in a perpetual feeling of resentment and anger, and be a ripe environment for "class struggle" indoctrination. Perhaps 100 years from now, people will have forgotten about Marx, but the attempt to "rob from the rich and give to the poor" will probably have a new label, with new slogans, martyrs, and symbols.
I agree, they are lagging in developing a Market economy that will close that distance and allow for greater opportunity among the many. For his time Marx had some good criticism of society. Biggest problem I see with communism, is that it is very easily taken over by some totalitarian dictator.
Ordie
07-07-2006, 01:24 PM
To answer your first question, KVLG, I really don't know about older Eastern-bloc weapons in the FMLN inventory. SKSs are a possibility, but I am somewhat doubtful about Mosin-Nagants, PPSh-41s and other older arms, mostly due to the logistics nightmare they would likely cause for their ammo requirements.
Yeah, I remember the Sandinista anthem. I wouldn't put too much weight on it though. It was kind of a symbol of the times.
Perhaps we were in Nicaragua at the same time, Ordie. I was only there for Samana Santa though, when I had a break from my job with the UN in El Salvador. I visited Lyon and Managua. I've heard things have gotten much better there since I visited the country, back in 1994.
I was there in 1996 as part of a medical team. We traveled to Managua, Leon, Matagalpa, Puerto Cabezas, and Waspam. The majority of the population was poor. The issues of the day was the lack of promised aid money from the United States. Senator Jessie Helms held up the funds on the premise that members of the Sandinista Party still held key positions in the government.
The conditions in the Moskito Coast was poor as well, however the outlook for the Moskitos and Garifunas was much brighter since the government gave them semi-autonomus status. During our stay we saw an influx of Colombians from San Andres Island and increased drug abuse. Not a good combination.
I think "hostility" comes in different forms. They were a mild nuisance, but hardly a threat.
I don't think Sandinista soldiers were ever going to land on Florida beaches. True, they may have given some support to other regional revolutionary groups, but that was a drop in the bucket compared to the massive amounts of aid the US gave to friendly regimes.
Since even before the days of Villa and Zapata, it has been fashionable to "hate the Yankee" in Latin America; but with the exception of a few people like Hugo Chavez, Evo Morales, Che Guavara, and Daniel Ortega, the fixation with Marxism and "international worker solidarity" usually wears of after university with most Latinos.
True, but unfortunately, people like Chavez, Morales, Guevara, and Ortega are oftentimes the guys running countries.
I just hope they can solve their gang problem effectively.
As far as specific AK models I have seen in El Salvador, it's been too long (12 years) to remember specifics clearly. Sorry!
By gang problem, I presume you're referring to the MS-13? Also, do you still remember any specific models, even if less than clear? That is, do you have a general idea?
gaijinsamurai
07-09-2006, 04:43 AM
There are two main organized gangs in Guatemala, the MS-13, or "Salvatruchas" and another, the name of which escapes me. One top of that, you've got thousands of hoodlums who will think nothing of stealing anything they can get their hands on, and shooting or knifing anyone who gets in their way. The situation is practically hopeless, and compounded by the fact that the police are mostly incompetent and/or criminals themselves.
I really don't know what specific models of AKs I saw in El Salvador. At the time, i just recognized them as being of East German origin by the distinctive plastic fixed or side-folding stocks.
If you want more info, I'd recommend trying to get your hands on a bunch of old issues of Soldier of Fortune magazine, particulary from the early 1980's.
There are two main organized gangs in Guatemala, the MS-13, or "Salvatruchas" and another, the name of which escapes me. One top of that, you've got thousands of hoodlums who will think nothing of stealing anything they can get their hands on, and shooting or knifing anyone who gets in their way. The situation is practically hopeless, and compounded by the fact that the police are mostly incompetent and/or criminals themselves.
I really don't know what specific models of AKs I saw in El Salvador. At the time, i just recognized them as being of East German origin by the distinctive plastic fixed or side-folding stocks.
If you want more info, I'd recommend trying to get your hands on a bunch of old issues of Soldier of Fortune magazine, particulary from the early 1980's.
My God. It sounds as if the situation's hopeless. I doubt it is, but it's probably going to take a long time before the gang problem is calmed down. Are you saying that you saw AKs with the distinctive EG fixed plastic stock in ES? I thought you said you just saw the folding stock versions...or was I mistaken? I wasn't asking for the specific models, I was just curious as to what countries they came from.
Still, the present situation is probably better by far than the war which plagued it back during the '80s.
gaijinsamurai
07-10-2006, 09:31 AM
Sorry, KVLG, but it has really been too long for me to remember exactly what I saw in EL Salvador (at the time, I had only limited interest in EXACT AK models), but I do remember seeing side-folding AKs, and assumed them to be of East German origin.
Actually, I think that for the foreseeable future, the problem in Guatemala IS HOPELESS! The people lack the collective will to solve the problem, and unlike many countries, most Guatemalans simply do not care about what happens to their neighborhoods, villages, cities, and country, as long as "they get theirs". Assistance from other countries is seen as an opportunity to line their pockets by the government bureaucrats who oversee internal develpoment, people don't value education or technology, and very few people really care.
Ironically, in many ways, things were better during the war. True, if you were an Indian (which is about 60% of the population) and lived in the rural villages, a human rights activist, or a labor union leader, you had a lot to fear, but for most people, especially in the cities, you could go about your business in safety. It was much better for foreigners too, as we weren't targets for assaults and robbery.
I've visited Central America regularly off and on for the past 22 years, and some countries, such as Nicaragua and El Salvador, have had the work ethic, courage, and foresite to do what is necessary to move on and prosper. But sadly, Guatemala is hopeless...
Sorry, KVLG, but it has really been too long for me to remember exactly what I saw in EL Salvador (at the time, I had only limited interest in EXACT AK models), but I do remember seeing side-folding AKs, and assumed them to be of East German origin.
Actually, I think that for the foreseeable future, the problem in Guatemala IS HOPELESS! The people lack the collective will to solve the problem, and unlike many countries, most Guatemalans simply do not care about what happens to their neighborhoods, villages, cities, and country, as long as "they get theirs". Assistance from other countries is seen as an opportunity to line their pockets by the government bureaucrats who oversee internal develpoment, people don't value education or technology, and very few people really care.
Ironically, in many ways, things were better during the war. True, if you were an Indian (which is about 60% of the population) and lived in the rural villages, a human rights activist, or a labor union leader, you had a lot to fear, but for most people, especially in the cities, you could go about your business in safety. It was much better for foreigners too, as we weren't targets for assaults and robbery.
I've visited Central America regularly off and on for the past 22 years, and some countries, such as Nicaragua and El Salvador, have had the work ethic, courage, and foresite to do what is necessary to move on and prosper. But sadly, Guatemala is hopeless...
Why are Guatemalans different from their neighbors in that regard?
PS,, back to the original subject matter...do you think that Vietnam may still have AMerican weaponry left over from the Vietnam War in it's stockpiles?
Ordie
07-10-2006, 07:29 PM
The majority of the population is Mayan Indian. Even though they are the majority, the country has been ruled by the Creole / Mestizo elite.
Everytime the Mayans start to organize or take initiative, its immediately seen as a threat and put down by the Army, Death Squads, Landowners and the CIA (Google Arbenz).
Therefore if you're a poor Guatemalan, why bother doing anything worthwhile if things are not going to change. You might as well start walking to "El Norte" and get a better life in the United States. Picking tomatoes in Florida for less than minimum wage is much better than being victimized and discriminated in your home country.
gaijinsamurai
07-10-2006, 10:32 PM
X2 what Ordie wrote. El Salvador, Honduras, and Nicaragua all have Indigenous populations, but not like Guatemala.
Discrimination against Indigenous peoples, whether they be in Bolivia, Peru, Guatemala, or Mexico, is deeply ingrained in Latin America.
Since the end of the war, Indigenous Guatemalans have had more rights, but these social customs don't just disappear overnight. Just look at the Southern US' Jim Crow laws that lasted into the 1960's and racial attitudes which still exist.
I know this sounds racist, but part of the problem in Guatemala is the mentality of the indigenous peoples themselves. If they just sit back and say "why try? I'll just get beaten down by the Spaniard/mestizo!", their lot will never improve. Also, they need to quit having 5-6 kids per household.
Also, Guatemala has received a lot of financial and material assistance from the US, European Union, and Japan over the years. They have largely become psychologically dependedant on this money, and in my opinion, it has been detrimental.
As far as Vietnam and "stockpiles" of weapons go, I am sure there are still weapons which were captured from or abandoned by the US or South Vietnamese forces. A friend of mine visited Vietnam a couple of years ago, and the government of some municipality was offering M16s for tourists to shoot at a rediculous price of something like $1 per round!
X2 what Ordie wrote. El Salvador, Honduras, and Nicaragua all have Indigenous populations, but not like Guatemala.
Discrimination against Indigenous peoples, whether they be in Bolivia, Peru, Guatemala, or Mexico, is deeply ingrained in Latin America.
Since the end of the war, Indigenous Guatemalans have had more rights, but these social customs don't just disappear overnight. Just look at the Southern US' Jim Crow laws that lasted into the 1960's and racial attitudes which still exist.
I know this sounds racist, but part of the problem in Guatemala is the mentality of the indigenous peoples themselves. If they just sit back and say "why try? I'll just get beaten down by the Spaniard/mestizo!", their lot will never improve. Also, they need to quit having 5-6 kids per household.
Also, Guatemala has received a lot of financial and material assistance from the US, European Union, and Japan over the years. They have largely become psychologically dependedant on this money, and in my opinion, it has been detrimental.
As far as Vietnam and "stockpiles" of weapons go, I am sure there are still weapons which were captured from or abandoned by the US or South Vietnamese forces. A friend of mine visited Vietnam a couple of years ago, and the government of some municipality was offering M16s for tourists to shoot at a rediculous price of something like $1 per round!
After all, doesn't El Salvador, Honduras, and Nicaragua (and most of the rest of Latin America too) have Mestizo majorities? Guatemala, Peru, Bolivia, and Paraguay are the nations with Indian majorities. The prejudice against the Indians no doubt date back to the Spaniard conquest, and was probably the reason why Humala was able to have been Peru's next possible leader. In some cases, foreign aid can be said to be like welfare. I think that American small arms are still present in Vietnam, but Hanoi probably got rid of the heavier stuff years ago.
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