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View Full Version : Can an Ak47 shoot a Nato 7.62????



Sneeker
06-27-2006, 06:42 PM
My buddy and I are having and argument about weather the Ak47 can shoot a nato 7.62 round. I know they use a different round but can you clear this up for me?

TacoDelRio
06-27-2006, 06:44 PM
Not more than once. :)

I highly highly doubt it. Case length on the AK round is 39mm, and the NATO's length is 51mm. I wouldn't try it.

CPLHUNTER
06-27-2006, 06:48 PM
My buddy and I are having and argument about weather the Ak47 can shoot a nato 7.62 round. I know they use a different round but can you clear this up for me?


I highly doubt it...

American Patriot
06-27-2006, 06:48 PM
Absolutely not.

Sneeker
06-27-2006, 06:55 PM
Thats what i told him can it work the other way around?

CPLHUNTER
06-27-2006, 07:00 PM
Thats what i told him can it work the other way around?

Once again, I highly doubt it. But feel free to try :)

7.62x39 can be referred to as 7.62 Russian but is a "short" round as compared to NATO 7.62

Abolith
06-27-2006, 07:06 PM
Thats what i told him can it work the other way around?


Simply put neither Round would chamber correctly in the opposing rifle... thus they wouldn't work. If your friend is determined to prove you wrong let him get a few rounds of each and a rifle of each caliber and then let him try to fire them , just be sure to bring a camera to record eveything so you can send it in to the Darwin awards.. p-)

Sneeker
06-27-2006, 07:07 PM
lol i love it thanks guys. The darwin thing is classic too.rofl

USMC Tanker
06-27-2006, 07:07 PM
Thats what i told him can it work the other way around?

I am almost 100% certain that there's no way. 7.62X39 has a short and fat casing, while 7.62X51 has a longer and slimmer casing. It would be like putting a pencil through a needle hole, or vice versa. Even in a pinch I wouldn't try it.

Not the best pictures, but perhaps you can tell the difference.

7.62X51

http://i12.photobucket.com/albums/a246/dcarter_usmc/th_NATO_7.jpg (http://i12.photobucket.com/albums/a246/dcarter_usmc/NATO_7.jpg)

7.62X39

http://i12.photobucket.com/albums/a246/dcarter_usmc/th_800px-Yugo_7.jpg (http://i12.photobucket.com/albums/a246/dcarter_usmc/800px-Yugo_7.jpg)


Hope that helps, bud.

Hollis
06-27-2006, 07:16 PM
A professor said, "There is no such thing as a stupid question." I guess he knew about google and how to use it and expected others to now too.

Edited to add, My daughter at 10 knew that answer.

East Scout II
06-27-2006, 07:22 PM
He probably saw some Yugo or other varient that will take 762N and that is what he think s he is arguing about..

ES

CPLHUNTER
06-27-2006, 07:24 PM
Probably so...seems like a stupid argument.

yiorgo
06-27-2006, 07:39 PM
um.... HELL NO and no 7.62x39 will not work in a 7.62x51 rifle....if you enjoy your hands and face, dont try it

Roaming East
06-27-2006, 09:36 PM
could you even take the bullet out of an M43, and put it in a Nato Case? i dont think they match up even at that level...

gaijinsamurai
06-27-2006, 10:12 PM
At some point, the Yugoslavs made an AK variant chambered for .308/7.62 NATO. But that's an exception. As it's already been said, don't EVER try to experiment with using different caliber rounds in firearms.

wicked_hind
06-27-2006, 10:17 PM
Yeah, the Yugoslavs produced some 7.62x51mm sniper rifles based on the AK design. As far as shooting a 7.62 NATO round out of an AK chambered for 7.62x39.....as everyone else has been saying....don't do it, not a good idea.

Otsoa
06-27-2006, 11:13 PM
could you even take the bullet out of an M43, and put it in a Nato Case? i dont think they match up even at that level...

I don't reload so take this with a grain of salt but the bullet diameter of the 7.62x51 Nato is (iirc) .308 of an inch whereas the diameter of the 7.62x39 round is .311 of an inch. Therefore, you cannot interchange bullets.

paul13usa
06-28-2006, 12:02 AM
Galil is a .308 and .223 and looks similar to a ak,somebody that didn't know the differance could mistake it for a ak

paul13usa
06-28-2006, 12:06 AM
galil 7.62

Ezekiel25:17
06-28-2006, 12:14 AM
Try it and show us pics of your face from the ER.

Hollis
06-28-2006, 12:15 AM
Galil is a .308 and .223 and looks similar to a ak,somebody that didn't know the differance could mistake it for a ak

except for the Price TAG, A .308 Galil is $$$$$ more so than the .223 Galil

maw
06-28-2006, 12:40 AM
i have a vepr II in .308/7.62mm, to be fair it's built on a rpk reciever. the gun is freaking awesome. outstanding accuracy. craps on a svd. if i told you, you wouldn't believe the groups i get - and with consistency. to beat it you'd have to step up to an tuned ar10/sr25 or one of the high dollar hk's with the polygonal barrel.

you can also get the izhmash saiga in .308/7.62mm and that's a real ak reciever.

then there's the valmet and the galil. oh and the yugo's.

Hollis
06-28-2006, 01:03 AM
you can also get the izhmash saiga in .308/7.62mm and that's a real ak reciever.


I would guess it is a variant, not a actual AK 47 receiver. Sort of like the AR15 and the AR-10. I have looked at them, but not compared them, The Mag well limits the AK 47, same with the AR15

maw
06-28-2006, 01:26 AM
I would guess it is a variant, not a actual AK 47 receiver. Sort of like the AR15 and the AR-10. I have looked at them, but not compared them, The Mag well limits the AK 47, same with the AR15

nope. i meant what i said. vepr is a rpk receiver and could therefore be dismissed as a variant. but the saiga is an ak reciever. the receiver length, width, wall thickness, rivet and weld positions, gas block, piston, trunion dimensions are all pure ak. the internals vary depending if you've got one in 7.62x39, 5.45, .223/5.56mm, .308/7.62mm or 12/20/410 gauge. but the recievers are all the same, if you don't believe me look at several saiga's in different calibers side by side. they're just plain jane stamped russian ak recievers. subjectively not as nice as the bulgarian ones but better then the most.

i like the saiga's and if you're wanting to build an ak-100 series rifle you probably couldn't start off with a more authentic base.

paul13usa
06-28-2006, 01:30 AM
HOLLIS you ever get to play with a Galil,i know this is off the subject but i always have wanted to but ,never had the chance,not so much the .223 but .308, i wondered what the reliability and accuracy was like.

Vandervahn
06-28-2006, 04:10 AM
M43
http://img231.imageshack.us/img231/4968/762x39m1943017pl.png


NATO
http://img231.imageshack.us/img231/4720/762x51nato011cb.png

Differences that make them completely incompatible:
- casing length and diameter
- bullet diameter
- Neck angle
- NATO is cylindrical, M43 is conical
- working pressure

These pics are about the same scale.

Young-kiwi
06-28-2006, 04:28 AM
Neat!
Photo time.....here's one I found...

http://i26.photobucket.com/albums/c110/young-kiwi/ServicCarts.jpg

GazB
06-28-2006, 05:08 AM
I am sitting in front of my computer right now with an SLR (FN FAL) on my lap and have placed an AK-47 7.62 x 39mm round in the chamber. It has fallen about 1 cm into the chamber so there is no way the firing pin would reach it (of course the bolt and bolt carrier are not currently fitted to the rifle... I am not an idiot). When the AK round is removed and the standard 7.62 x 51mm round is placed in the chamber the entire rim and groove in front of the rim sits outside the chamber. This part of the bullet is surrounded by the bolt head when the round is properly chambered.

Putting down the SLR and picking up a Chinese made AKM I try to load the 7.62 x 39mm round and it stops moving into the chamber when the entire case is inside the chamber with the groove and rim sitting outside. Again the bolt has the rim and groove in it so that the extractor can remove the fired round. Trying to fit the 7.62 x 51mm round into the AK fails. the round wont even fit past the neck as the case diameter of the 7.62 x 51 is wider than the case diameter of the 7.62 x 39mm.
As pointed out above the AK round has a bullet diameter of .311 inches rather than .308. This means that if you can get the barrel of a 303 and alter the chamber you can use AK ammo in the resulting gun. A local gunsmith has been offering to rechamber old 303 rifles to 7.62 x 39mm because 303 ammo is getting scarce. He also offers a nice silenced model for use with subsonic 7.62 x 39mm ammo. (He also makes De Lisle type .45 cal modifications of the 303 action for an unusual weapon... have been thinking of buying one myself... if I could work out a reason to have one...)

Hollis
06-28-2006, 11:47 AM
HOLLIS you ever get to play with a Galil,i know this is off the subject but i always have wanted to but ,never had the chance,not so much the .223 but .308, i wondered what the reliability and accuracy was like.

I always wanted one, and was going to build one. The 308's are impossible to come by here, 223 are expensive. to build one the parts cost around 800-1000 USD.

They are supposed to be a very fine firearm... WHAT I am told.

Hollis
06-28-2006, 11:55 AM
nope. i meant what i said.

i like the saiga's and if you're wanting to build an ak-100 series rifle you probably couldn't start off with a more authentic base.

I will look, I build my own AK receivers, the trunion is where the front lip of the mag clips into, and the mag release is at the trigger guard. the distance is fix. I will have to check some blanks that I have already have the mag well cute out for the mag well length. That is why I was wondering. Without measuring I think the distance has to be increased to allow for a 308 magazine.

This is my daughter(10 at the time) firing her AK, that we made. A photo of a small section of my shop. I Do tig, mig, spot and gas welding along with heat treating, bluing, parkarizing, plating, etc.

BlackRain
06-28-2006, 11:57 AM
My buddy and I are having and argument about weather the Ak47 can shoot a nato 7.62 round. I know they use a different round but can you clear this up for me?

This is an old military urban legend that has been around for decades. There similar variations of the story for .50 cal, mortars, and artillery.

haze99
06-28-2006, 12:02 PM
I would guess the Soviets were the first(?) to make a 5.56x45mm Kalashnikov? (after getting some M-16's from their comrades during the Vietnam War!) If they made any they would have been for testing. As we all know, the USSR went with a 5.45 round!
On the other hand, the Finns (Valmet) and the Yugoslavs (Zastava) were the first to have NATO caliber weapons come off the production line in the early 1980's. These were intended for the export market, though they never got any takers.

Tamir
06-28-2006, 12:40 PM
I always wanted one, and was going to build one. The 308's are impossible to come by here, 223 are expensive. to build one the parts cost around 800-1000 USD.

They are supposed to be a very fine firearm... WHAT I am told.
Galil is good, solid weapon. Had a glilon for several months (galil SAR) very reliable, never jammed on me even after a lot of abuse and dirt. It is however too heavy for a 5.56 weapon to carry all day long.

Hollis
06-28-2006, 12:54 PM
Galil is good, solid weapon. Had a glilon for several months (galil SAR) very reliable, never jammed on me even after a lot of abuse and dirt. It is however too heavy for a 5.56 weapon to carry all day long.

Tamir, that is all I have ever heard about the Galil. Thanks you for your post.

H.

Former Gold Falcon
06-28-2006, 01:57 PM
Your friend is probably getting his calibers/weapons mixed up.

7.62x51/.308 CAN be used (though not advisable) in a PKM 7.62x54R.

Though not vice-verse.


T.

maw
06-28-2006, 02:55 PM
HOLLiS - those are cool pics. sounds like you've got a pretty elaborate workshop.
other than the sights and the cost/availability of magazines the galil rocks. i'd have one in .308/7.62mm in a heartbeat if only magazines were more available. ohio rapid fire have a us receiver than can be combined with a parts kit used to build up a rifle, but everyone i've spoken to has said that the quality of the reciever is sooo bad that i'm better off finding a spare isreali receiver. i've been looking for over a year but no luck.

Hollis
06-28-2006, 03:07 PM
HOLLiS - those are cool pics. sounds like you've got a pretty elaborate workshop.
other than the sights and the cost/availability of magazines the galil rocks. i'd have one in .308/7.62mm in a heartbeat if only magazines were more available. ohio rapid fire have a us receiver than can be combined with a parts kit used to build up a rifle, but everyone i've spoken to has said that the quality of the reciever is sooo bad that i'm better off finding a spare isreali receiver. i've been looking for over a year but no luck.

Locl gunshop had one a long time ago, I found out after the fact, it was a 308, I would love to own one. But I don't think I want to spend what the asking price for one is right now.

I posted the pic of my shop, to say, That I have a little bit of a idea what I type about, not just hear say.

I am slowing down with age, so I don't do as much as I use too. I have a AK 74 I need to build, My son wants to build a AK like his sisters and I have some conversions I need to figure out.

A few years ago I converted a 1919 Browning to semi auto... real fun gun to shoot.

Jippo
06-28-2006, 03:14 PM
Tamir, that is all I have ever heard about the Galil. Thanks you for your post.

H.

Well if you want to learn about Galil you might as well read about Valmet / Sako: they are essentially the same weapon. Go here:

http://www.valmetweapons.com/Valmet_Articles.php

Good article is for instance the "torture test in Alaska", Galil is in it and actually won that test.


-jippo

Lazarou
06-28-2006, 03:23 PM
On the other hand, the Finns (Valmet) and the Yugoslavs (Zastava) were the first to have NATO caliber weapons come off the production line in the early 1980's.
AFAIK the first NATO caliber Valmet rifles were manufactured in the early 1970's.

LtVacan
06-28-2006, 05:50 PM
A friend of mine has a Galil in .308 with a folding stock. Its a great weapon, I wish it was mine.

In a pinch you could fire 7.62x51 in Moisin-Nagant rifle or the carbine version. Its not a real good idea, but if it was a survival situation it might work. I wouldn't want to test the theory though.

East Scout II
06-28-2006, 07:15 PM
A friend of mine has a Galil in .308 with a folding stock. Its a great weapon, I wish it was mine.

In a pinch you could fire 7.62x51 in Moisin-Nagant rifle or the carbine version. Its not a real good idea, but if it was a survival situation it might work. I wouldn't want to test the theory though.

You said it..you test it..let us know!

ES

RomanS
06-28-2006, 07:49 PM
I'll do a test tonight

I wont shoot it (not stupid)
but i will remove the bolt and the bolt carrier out of my AK, and will put a 7.62x39 round in the chamber, and than will try to see how far 7.62x51 goes in there.
I'll take photos

gaijinsamurai
06-28-2006, 09:29 PM
I think a lot of this "interchangability" myth got started as a result of the fact that the Soviet/Russian 82mm mortar could fire captured German, and later NATO 81mm mortar rounds. This military version of an urban myth has been floating around for a long time. I remember in bootcamp when my drill instructors told us, incorrectly, that the Soviets' weapons could fire our ammo back in 1985.
Often, all it takes is an NCO with incorrect assumptions to say something that isn't true, and like shiyat through a goose, the word spreads like wildfire.
During Desert Shield/Storm, a Marine corporal who was giving a class on the AT-4 told a bunch of us that HEAT (High Explosive Anti-Tank) rounds were heat-seeking.
In WWII, captured Japanese "knee mortars" were responsible for countless Marines getting broken legs by using their knees as firing platforms when shooting them. All because someone made an incorrect assumption and ran his mouth!

LtVacan
06-28-2006, 11:43 PM
You said it..you test it..let us know!

ES

Sorry, I don't have anything chambered for 7.62X54R. I looked at the dimensions of each cartridge several years ago when someone brought up this whole "shoot your ammo back at you" and I figured that might be where the legend/myth came from. They are close enough that a .308 might fit in a 7.62x54R rifle with a loose chamber.

paul13usa
06-29-2006, 12:16 AM
the length of 7.62x54r is 2.987, 308 is 2.790 cartiage dia of the russian is.473 the 308 is.457.the russian round has a flange on the cartiage that's.565,the flange on the 308 is.470, which probally means the 308 would fall into the rifle chamber.I got a 1944 finnish sako mosin put i ain't about to get a 308 stuck in the chamber,my advice use what belongs.

I once was with a guy who liked to hot load his ammo,he was shooting a 357 revolver using bullseye powder,when he was doing his reloading it called i believe for 3 grains of powder well one beer to many and he double charged one bullet with 6 grains,blew the top strap and half the gun apart,stuff went flying pass my head and he wondered why i would never shoot his reloads:bash:

maw
06-29-2006, 02:12 AM
do any of our russian or finnish members know where i can get 20 rounds magazines for my .308/7.62mm vepr?

FDFCorporal
06-29-2006, 02:23 AM
Your friend is probably getting his calibers/weapons mixed up.

7.62x51/.308 CAN be used (though not advisable) in a PKM 7.62x54R.

Though not vice-verse.


T.

I doubt it because pkm uses rimmed cartridge.

budgie
06-29-2006, 04:15 AM
However the AK47 is easily copied and village gunsmiths have been making low-quality knockoffs in the highlands of Pakistan and Afghanistan for years. If you google images of Taliban or Afghan Mujahideen you'll see some with big wide banana clips on AKs that have been chambered for .303 or .308 rounds.

LtVacan
06-29-2006, 09:02 AM
the length of 7.62x54r is 2.987, 308 is 2.790 cartiage dia of the russian is.473 the 308 is.457.the russian round has a flange on the cartiage that's.565,the flange on the 308 is.470, which probally means the 308 would fall into the rifle chamber.I got a 1944 finnish sako mosin put i ain't about to get a 308 stuck in the chamber,my advice use what belongs.

I once was with a guy who liked to hot load his ammo,he was shooting a 357 revolver using bullseye powder,when he was doing his reloading it called i believe for 3 grains of powder well one beer to many and he double charged one bullet with 6 grains,blew the top strap and half the gun apart,stuff went flying pass my head and he wondered why i would never shoot his reloads:bash:Drinking and reloading don't mix well, as you obviously know!

I have twice seen full magazines of 9mm fired in .357 Sig pistols. One was a P239 and the other a Glock model 32. Both guns cycled properly, the bullet hit low on the target, and both slides did not stay open when the mag was empty. I was really surprised how well it worked. The cases bulged out like they were fired from an open bolt submachinegun, but they did not rupture.

I definately do not reccomend anyone trying this, but if you are stuck with no ammo and you absolutely need to fire a .357 sig pistol (e.g. you have no 9mm pistol but do have 9mm ammo) and all you have is 9mm ammo, it will work. sooner or later you will get a case rupture, so this is only for a life or death type situation.

Durandal
06-29-2006, 09:21 AM
I will look, I build my own AK receivers, the trunion is where the front lip of the mag clips into, and the mag release is at the trigger guard. the distance is fix. I will have to check some blanks that I have already have the mag well cute out for the mag well length. That is why I was wondering. Without measuring I think the distance has to be increased to allow for a 308 magazine.

This is my daughter(10 at the time) firing her AK, that we made. A photo of a small section of my shop. I Do tig, mig, spot and gas welding along with heat treating, bluing, parkarizing, plating, etc.

Absolutely wonderful photos Hollis...

Not too sure which is cooler, your daughter ponying up on an AK (which every son and daughter should do) OR the sexy @ss shop pic...

Ops Rachel vet
06-29-2006, 09:29 AM
Also look at the South African copy of the AK 47 *** Galil. It is made by LIW / Vektor. Cosmeticaly the same as a Galil but in 5,56 x 45 mm only. It is nown as the R4 (rifle nr 4) Also two compact versions were made as the R5 and R6. The latter the most compact.

All R rifles were fully automatic.
Some semi only were made an it was marketed as LM4, 5 and 6.

R4's is the official weapon of the SANDF (national defence force)
R5's is the official weapon of the SAPS ( police service)

Former Gold Falcon
07-02-2006, 04:58 AM
I doubt it because pkm uses rimmed cartridge.

That is why it is not advisable.

though doable in a pinch.


T.

Hollis
07-02-2006, 12:21 PM
Drinking and reloading don't mix well, as you obviously know!




Drinking and shooting does not mix either.

There are some mistakes that slip buy, just like a guy shooting 44 mag in a 45 colt pistol. The 45 colt pistol was a ruger black hawk not a first generation colt, if it was a few fingers may be gone as long as the colt SAA.

I would suggest, reading about cases, where the case seal is, on rim it is the rim, belted cases it is the belt, etc etc.......

The about bullets, the smaller the bullet gets in diameter from actual one used accuracy goes to hell, as the bullet gets larger in diameter than actual one use, chamber pressure goes up, Until the bolt becomes a permanent fixture to you face.

NEVER use the wrong ammo. even if it worked for a buddy in his gun, your gun may not be the same, like the 45 colt blackhawk, and 45 colt 1st generation.

In the 45 colt ammunition the new 45 colts can be loader very hot and detrimental to the frame and hand of the 1st generation shooter.

Same with 45/70 there are three group loads, group 1 is mild for trap door Springfield a (considered) weak action........ all the way to group III which is getting close to 458 Win Mag loads to be shot in ruger No. 1 only.

Think about what your eyes, hands, other body parts let along the firearm are worth to you. Mixing ammo is shear stupidity.

This discussion ranks with "can you do a William Tell and shoot a apple off of your buddies head". the William Tell may be smarter because it is your buddy who will pay for such gross stupidity or drunkenness.

BTW the William Tell thing happened in Grants Pass Oregon a number of years back, the Bolt (from a cross bow) got the guy right between the eyes, but manage not to harm the brain and the tip pushed out the back of the guys skull.

East Scout II
07-02-2006, 01:44 PM
Drinking isnt much good for anything but sitting on the porch talking w/ friends and family.......

ES

Hollis
07-02-2006, 02:04 PM
Drinking isnt much good for anything but sitting on the porch talking w/ friends and family.......

ES

Most affirmative and Bar B Q and Pizza...

Kerpan
07-02-2006, 04:19 PM
Most affirmative and Bar B Q and Pizza...

what about those drunken ninja dudes. they like became aggresive and determined because they were drunk...

As for the question...
I wouldnt be stupid enough to try it, but if u are, I'd try the russian in the nato first. The nato is larger and the pressure would be higher (i'd guess) so, i'd rather have less accuracy and power, than pieces of an Ak in my face...

Jippo
07-03-2006, 01:55 AM
There is no way technically / mechanically to shoot 7.62x51 from an AK. AK has this little part (you give the name, as I'm not english speaker) that prevents hammer fall unless the bolt is closed, and the bolt will not close (not even near) for a 7.62x51. End of discussion?


-jippo