American Foreign Legion

[Caraway]

I saw some writings on the net about AFL. What do you think about the idea that illegal imigrants would be recruited into this new kind of "french foreing legion" to serve US over seas and here, everywhere. It would save american blood, would it not? ;)
They would get citizenship after serving 5 to 10 years or so. Win-win situation for everyone?

[Mr Gently Benevolent]

They could set up recruiting posts on the border in Arizona. :)

[Navy]

Would bee an great thing to those who would like an alternative than serving in FFL.

[Sleeping Sun]

The idea of an American Foreign Legion is quite old. In the sixties when american soldiers were starting to die in Vietnam they actually thought of "buying" the FFL from France. The algerian war had just ended for the french pulling out of Algeria and the Legionnaires were pissed off about the fact that they had (once again) fought and died for nothing. Legionnaires from the 1erREP(Foreign Paratroop Regiment) tried to assassinate the french president Charles De Gaulle, who had given Algeria it's independence, and so the french public and politicians wanted to shut down the Legion.

[obd]

I never liked the idea of the French Foreign Legion. I find it despicable to a large degree. At times in it history the FFL has accepted rapists, murderes etc from all over Europe. There is also the case of them trying to assasinate the president of France and waging a coup that was put down by regular French forces. These acts just show how mercenary armies are not as trust worthy. (This is especially true in America where the US Military has a proud tradition of following orders from the civilian authority and where an Army coup is currently almost unthinkable.) But I also realize that there is a counter argument that the foreign legion gives opressed people a chance to flee and become 100% french citizens bu for a price and thats a good argument but:

Well I personally see any foreign legion as mercenaries and hardly as the traditional "voluntary citizen soldiers" that America is so proud of today. I think it is against the Christian principle of non usary when you take desperate immigrants and only offer them citizenship for ten years of tough military service. I think that is wrong. I think America is somewhat protected from iodiot and imperialist leaders by having a highly professional, elite, and motivated army of true citizen soldiers. I think it forces our politicians to make sure the wars they wage are supported by the people. I think giving corrupt politicians armies of essestially expendable mercenaries is a very dangerous thing. Not only that, but it will very clearly deminish the value and proud tradition of the American fighitng man and I think US soldiers everywhere would be against the very idea. Could you imagine some politicans deciding to use a force of non-US citizen mercenaries over Marines? Can you imagine the shame and damage to the Marine Corps if that were to happen??

[Caraway]

The idea of an American Foreign Legion is quite old. In the sixties when american soldiers were starting to die in Vietnam they actually thought of "buying" the FFL from France. The algerian war had just ended for the french pulling out of Algeria and the Legionnaires were pissed off about the fact that they had (once again) fought and died for nothing. Legionnaires from the 1erREP(Foreign Paratroop Regiment) tried to assassinate the french president Charles De Gaulle, who had given Algeria it's independence, and so the french public and politicians wanted to shut down the Legion.

Do you think AFL might become a security risk for US? If I'm not mistaken the Germans tried to infiltrate FFL prior to WW2. Imagine Al-Qaida doing the same thing... :cantbeli:

[obd]

I never liked the idea of the French Foreign Legion. I find it despicable to a large degree. At times in it history the FFL has accepted rapists, murderes etc from all over Europe. There is also the case of them trying to assasinate the president of France and waging a coup that was put down by regular French forces. These acts just show how mercenary armies are not as trust worthy. (This is especially true in America where the US Military has a proud tradition of following orders from the civilian authority and where an Army coup is currently almost unthinkable.) But I also realize that there is a counter argument that the foreign legion gives opressed people a chance to flee and become 100% french citizens bu for a price and thats a good argument but:

Well I personally see any foreign legion as mercenaries and hardly as the traditional "voluntary citizen soldiers" that America is so proud of today. I think it is against the Christian principle of non usary when you take desperate immigrants and only offer them citizenship for ten years of tough military service. I think that is wrong. I think America is somewhat protected from iodiot and imperialist leaders by having a highly professional, elite, and motivated army of true citizen soldiers. I think it forces our politicians to make sure the wars they wage are supported by the people. I think giving corrupt politicians armies of essestially expendable mercenaries is a very dangerous thing. Not only that, but it will very clearly deminish the value and proud tradition of the American fighitng man and I think US soldiers everywhere would be against the very idea. Could you imagine some politicans deciding to use a force of non-US citizen mercenaries over Marines? Can you imagine the shame and damage to the Marine Corps if that were to happen??

[aeternum]

American Foreign Legion = NATO Response Force.

Wherever American Interests are concerned, the Europeans are going to pay the price! Now what a great invention.

[stephane from Paris]

Well, it was the officers (all french ) of 1er REP who tried a "coup d'Etat" in Alger, with the help of several officers from regular paras units!!!
In foreign legion soldiers follow their officers, and this is what was done at that time!
The 1er REP was the only unit of foreign legion who was deleted since it was the only unit in this affair!!
Btw it's the OAS (a secret group which included, for most part some algeria's colons and some military officers) who tried to kill De Gaule, not the 1er REP!
Notice that 30% of legionnaires are french origin soldiers!

[politics for dummies]

we already have a program like that set up, but instead of being in a separate force, they enlist in the army, when I was in bct, I was surprised to see a group of recruits straight from mexico, when I questioned the one that spoke broken english, he said that they were offered u.s. citizenship if they served 8 years in the american military, they accepted, and we called them ESL's, short for English Second Language.

[Caraway]

Are you saying that anyone non US citizen can just walk in to the US and head for nearest recruiting post and get in to the US army?

[Sleeping Sun]

Do you think AFL might become a security risk for US? If I'm not mistaken the Germans tried to infiltrate FFL prior to WW2. Imagine Al-Qaida doing the same thing

AFL a security risk? The only kind of a AFL I can see would be one where all the recruits would have previous military experience in a western(christian) army. I think the security checks would be pretty paranoid... you must be a christian... never said a bad word about America... no muslim background...etc, etc

The german intelligence service started an operation in early 1930's in which they tried to destroy the Legion from the inside. In the end more than half of the Legionnaires and 80% of the NCOs were germans. To cover the whole thing up they arrested a professional hypnotist, Albert Zagula, and blaimed him from hypnotising german men to join the Legion. When the war started most of the german Legionnaires were sent to north-africa and refugees from other countries were recruited to fill the hole.

[politics for dummies]

All I seen when I was there were mexicans, no others, dont know the details, thats all I know, maby its because only mexicans want to become u.s. citizens by joining the army, maby.

[ßå$tĮТHÏ¿ð]

Good idea, but alot of screening would be nessecary for the soldiers to be "trusted". Would they be able to wear there countrys patch on there arm?

[Pégase]

Well, it was the officers (all french ) of 1er REP who tried a "coup d'Etat" in Alger, with the help of several officers from regular paras units!!!
In foreign legion soldiers follow their officers, and this is what was done at that time!
The 1er REP was the only unit of foreign legion who was deleted since it was the only unit in this affair!!
Btw it's the OAS (a secret group which included, for most part some algeria's colons and some military officers) who tried to kill De Gaule, not the 1er REP!
Notice that 30% of legionnaires are french origin soldiers!

it is sometime stated that this was a false attempted murder to justify the repression against the OAS (Organisation of Secret Army)

[Geezah]

The idea of an American Foreign Legion is quite old. In the sixties when american soldiers were starting to die in Vietnam they actually thought of "buying" the FFL from France. The algerian war had just ended for the french pulling out of Algeria and the Legionnaires were pissed off about the fact that they had (once again) fought and died for nothing. Legionnaires from the 1erREP(Foreign Paratroop Regiment) tried to assassinate the french president Charles De Gaulle, who had given Algeria it's independence, and so the french public and politicians wanted to shut down the Legion.

Wasn't that a movie???http://images.amazon.com/images/P/0783226853.01.LZZZZZZZ.jpg

[Pégase]

Wasn't that a movie???

read the post of stephane from paris above, this is way off topic ...

there have been at least five attempted murders against Charles De Gaulle between 1961 and 1964

why do you put this in a topic about the foreign legion ? :cantbeli:


if you want to enlist in the French Foreign Legion today, you'd have to pass some psychological tests, but also some deep security checks and investigations during the selections
this is to avoid the recruitment of criminal (except of some small offences), no delinquent sought by Interpol can be allowed
so no "undesirable" subjects

since a new law, any foreign legionnaire can gain French citizenship "by the blood shed" during his contract, ie if hurt or handicapped while fighting for France

[Maverick77]

An American foreign legion is a good idea.

[Caraway]

Enough with the FFL unless it has something to do with possible AFL, okay?

[Tane Angle]

Is it California Joe who has mentioned a few times on here the Roman precedence for using foreign legions that led to their downfall? Somebody does, I think.

I can't say that I'd really support an AFL too much; however, I do support National Service (not just military service). Have a good one, and just some thoughts...

[Flagg]

I think the main reason for creating an AFL would be insulate the American public from having Americans coming home in bodybags.

Private Military Contractors(PMCs) not only insulate the American public, but the American government as well...since PMC activity can often be performed on the behalf of a third-party nation...with the added bonus of having much of the work being performed on a fixed budget.

In my opinion, PMCs are inherently more effective than a proposed AFL

I do think the idea of further extending opportunities for foreign residents to join the Armed Forces has merit....something along the lines of the Lodge Act of 1951...when the US recruited from Soviet Bloc expatriates to help out in fear of a future Soviet invasion.

From what I understand it was quite successful as a number of these recruits became quite famous in the Special Forces community, including the Finn Larry Thorne.

If the recruiting and vetting process was able to prevent Warsaw Pact Intelligence penetration...I think they could cope effectively today against poorer resourced potential adversaries.

For example, if Western Africa is projected to become an "area of interest", recruiting and vetting potential prospects with localised language and cultural expertise can be invaluable, in exchange for permanent greencard/citizenship for self and family.

At the very least it will bring in a couple of folks to help pay for the retiring baby boomers' social security tab...every body helps.

[UkrainianAmerican]

Yeah but many PMCs ARE americans, so when they die it still sucks.

[Caraway]

Good comments Flagg, thanks. :)
Btw, Finland was not part of the Soviet Bloc in the same sense as the rest of the eastern Europe was. :bash:
Trivia: Larry Thorne was known in Finland as Lauri Törni if anyone is interested.

[sethen]

Why would anyone join an AFL? Why wait 5 to 10 years for citizenship when they can join the regular military and get it in far less time????

Our military currently lets foreigners in at a torrents pace. Its overran with substandard enlisted and n.c.o's that in some cases can barely speak English!!! I had this piece of sh!t n.c.o from Nigeria who was unintelligable when he spoke, needless to say I couldn't carry out orders because I couldn't understand what he was saying!!!!!! Its a shame that some cadet read "Starship Troopers" when he was in West Point and then as a General implemented this insane policy!!!!!!

An example of what foreigners that have served in the U.S. military can cause:

Alli Muhammed: Al-qaeda member that was dismissed from the Egyptian Special Forces and then infiltrated the U.S. Army. He was a PLL clerk that was airborne qualified and became an affiliate with the SOCOM. While there he took leave and traveled to Afghanistan, returning with a Russian military belt that he brandished saying it was from a Russian soldier he had killed!!!! Later on he was spotted by the F.B.I. training what later became the nucleus of the first World Trade Center bombing clique in weapons !!!!! He was later indicted for conspiracy in the bombings of the American Embassy Bombings of Kenya and Tanzania!!!!!!

http://www.detnews.com/2000/nation//0010/21/nation-137296.htm


Another excellent foreigner in our ranks:

Hussein Farrah Aidid is the son of Mohamed Farrah Aidid. For those not in the know he was the target of raids that led to the events of the book and movie Black Hawk Down. Aidid was a Marine Reservist that was activated for the Deployment to Somalia because he was one of the very small handful that could speak Somali!!!! While there he was an interpreter for the U.S. forces trying to catch his Father!!!!!!!!!

http://www.armytimes.com/story.php?f=1-292925-756586.php

[Flagg]

Yeah but many PMCs ARE americans, so when they die it still sucks.

Agreed.....

But there is a huge perceptual difference by the American public if an American soldier gets killed as opposed to an American PMC contractor getting killed.

You only have to look at the situation in Columbia to prove my point.....if every PMC in Columbia was replaced by publicly acknowledged US soldiers there one for one.....American public perception of US involvement there could potentially change dramatically.

[UkrainianAmerican]

Yeah but many PMCs ARE americans, so when they die it still sucks.

Agreed.....

But there is a huge perceptual difference by the American public if an American soldier gets killed as opposed to an American PMC contractor getting killed.

You only have to look at the situation in Columbia to prove my point.....if every PMC in Columbia was replaced by publicly acknowledged US soldiers there one for one.....American public perception of US involvement there could potentially change dramatically.
Yeah I see what you mean. Perhpas this has a lot to do that the media isnt as interested in PMCs (probably a good thing)
Btw as far as the war on drugs goes, every American soldir/PMC that gets killed there, dies for pretty much nothing :(
Its been over ten years since the "war" started, and it is SO much easier to get weed then Alcohol or tobacco.

[Lobo]

Are you saying that anyone non US citizen can just walk in to the US and head for nearest recruiting post and get in to the US army?

AFAIK it's possible, but you can't access SF units and goin't further than captain. Check the list of KIA soldiers during OIF and you'll find some foreign citizens. GWB took the decision of giving the U.S. citizenship automatically to all of them.

[DE_Six]

AFAIK it's possible, but you can't access SF units and goin't further than captain.

You have to be a full-fledged US citizen to become an officer.

As a permanent resident only, you are barred from any MOS or position that requires a security clearance.

The big difference between the current US recruiting process and an hypothetical AFL is that in order to enlist in the regular Armed Forces, you have to become a permanent resident first. This includes getting a permanent residency and a work permit, in other words, a Green Card. Anyone will tell you, this document is very hard to obtain. The easiest way to obtain it is to have a US employer sponsor you.
This said, the US Army (or any part of the government) cannot sponsor your immigration as an employer.
I don't know about Mexicans, maybe their situation is different, since they are so many to immigrate, legally or not, maybe the Army is seizing an opportunity to fill its ranks.
An AFL would have to bypass the Green Card requirement in order to be truly different from the actual process.

[usa320]

bad idea IMHO.

[chauncy republicans]

Imagine how many Irish men the US Armed Forces would get if this was policy. I mean they would get thousands upon thousands. I like the sound of that... Nothing but a bunch of us crazy mics. The mess hall WILL NOT serve corned beef and cabbage, and
Canteens would be filled with Murphy's or Guiness. (Smithwicks, if you prefer a more dignified taste.) p-)

[Maj C]

we don't need a afl. non-citizens can serve just in any branch just fine and help their quest to become citizens if that's what they want. the only special arrangement iirc was that filipinos used to be recruited to the navy in pi and became citizens through that program. that's why every navy town has a huge pilipino community.

when i was on the drill field we had mexicans, south americans, brits, chinese, vietnamese, cambodian, and even a former feldwebel from the bundeswehr.

[Caraway]

Yeah but shouldn't you first immigrate USA lawfully before you have the chance to enlist? I meant AFL as solution to the illegal immigrant problem that USA is suffering. Those guys can't enlist, they are deported. Besides the USA has every now and then some war going on so.... AFL the perfect solution? woot

[ßå$tĮТHÏ¿ð]

PMC's are a bad idea, majoirty of the PMC's recruit experienced officers and soldiers from American and other armies. What's so good about training a guy for 8 years sending him off to a couple conflicts to find out he rather work for a PMC because it "pays more". It takes away experience from the army in general.

The AFL would be a good idea, of course there would be a major background check and tests and what not before enlisting.


Yeah but shouldn't you first immigrate USA lawfully before you have the chance to enlist?

Theres plenty of people fighting for America that are in Iraq that arnt even American Citizens. They are fighting for a country which they technically arnt even apart of yet, I remeber watching or reading a story about this type of thing a couple months ago. As far as I know there has been a few Canadians "borrowed" for Iraq there were involved in major action, although our government would never admitt it.

[Caraway]

Follow the link below to get the original idea of AFL. Read and digest.

http://www.military.com/NewContent/0,13190,Defensewatch_012104_Foreign,00.html

;)