ASP Baton question

[playtym]

Is it true that the sale / possession of ASP batons in the United States is restricted to law enforcement only? A staff member recently told me this at one our gun shops here in South Africa.

[Creeper]

Yes it is. shk out the link to the right>http://www.actiongear.com/cgi-bin/tame.exe/agcatalog/level4s.tam?xax=16975&M5COPY%2Ectx=26162&M5%2Ectx=3029&M2%5FDESC%2Ectx=Personal%20Security%20%2D%20ASP%AE%20Batons%2C%20Restraints%2C%20Cuffs&level3%2Ectx=results%2Etam&query%2Ectx=asp&backto=%2Fagcatalog%2Fresults%2Etam

[playtym]

**RA** Restricted Article- No sales to California or Canadian residents, except bona-fide law enforcement or military customers. No sales to minors. You must be 18 years or older to order. Adult signature required. Offer Void in any jurisdiction where shipment or ownership is prohibited.

So it's not a countrywide ban then, but is dependant on what state you live in? From the ads I’ve seen in magazines California seems to ban most things.

[gaijinsamurai]

Check the writing in that ad again, Creeper. It says sales in CALIFORNIA and CANADA are restricted to law enforcement.
Thankfully, California's weapons laws do not apply to the rest of the U.S.

[Macabi]

Are those things any good? Are they just as effective as the classic police baton?

[Kaapeli]

Are those things any good? Are they just as effective as the classic police baton?

Better. The main advantages are easier concealment and more intimidating appearance.
They can also cause more damage and pain but I don't think that's usually necessary or a significant advantage.

[Hollis]

Better. The main advantages are easier concealment and more intimidating appearance.
They can also cause more damage and pain but I don't think that's usually necessary or a significant advantage.

When I was in the MPs on Okinawa (around 1970), we called them CP sticks, the civilian police used them. Batons have some different uses that can be employed over the CP stick, The advantage of them you can place them in your rear pocket out of sight and they can be effectively used as less than lethal force.

Maybe google some baton usages and you can see what I mean, a Baton can be used to "physically restrain" and move a person better than a CP stick.

[Kaapeli]

Of all the advantages I believe the ergonomy is the main reason for its popularity. You can't even sit comfortably with a regular baton. The extendable baton is the size of a small flashlight and you won't even notice it on your belt holster and often neither will other people.

[gaijinsamurai]

Also, the ASP corporation has an excellent training program. I attended it back in 1998 or 1999, when I was a defensive tactics instructor for parole officers. Basically, it was a two-day gladiator course, and pretty ruthless. They taught a lot about training, liability, strikes, carrying, and just about anything else one would want to know. In addition, the company offeres a lot of accessories and many models to choose from.

[22.5degrees]

ASP or similar batons can be purchased with ease here in Canada. As far as I know they are considered are "dangerous/deadly weapon" should you ever get caught carrying one.

22.5

[Mountain Man]

The only places that sell them in my area are police supply, and they check you out but it is really self regulation. There are places to buy them on the internet that I'm sure don't check. I think ASP is pretty good about sorting out responsible retailers who won't sell their product to anyone. Our laws here in Oklahoam are like what 22.5 said though, getting caught with one will get you charged under "dangerous/deadly weapon" charges. I've arrested a few people with knock offs but never an ASP brand impact weapon.

As far as the difference, its mainly ease of carry. I know quite a few guys in our department that said the old "hickories" were the way to go. I've always used the ASP so I don't know personally.

[playtym]

Mountain Man & 22.5 - you guys have piqued my curiosity.

When would somebody be charged with carrying it as a "dangerous/deadly weapon"?

If I was walking along the street and a police officer noticed I had one would he arrest me and charge me, or would it be more of a situation where it would be thrown in as an additional charge if you've already arrested someone for something else?

A similar scenario might be someone driving down the road with an axe in his pick-up, but it doesn't become a deadly weapon until he attacks someone with it.

[Icarus1]

We work since years with the ASP F21 Airweight. It's a great piece of gear. Discrete, and when you know how to use extremly effective. Also in closed state you can use it effectively. Also a big plus is the fact that it's easier to handle than a tonfa under stress and the concealment bonus.

[Icarus1]

And the effect when drawing and opening the baton is great. The sound and the sudden appearence of a weapon which is not known by many people lead to a few abbandons of an already started attack.

[JTAR7242]

CA is restricted sale.

You can get permits to buy and carry them, but they are restricted to security personnel mostly.



Of course, due to CA's retarded laws, it is a felony to carry a collapsible baton illegally, but only a misdemeanor to carry a firearm illegally. :lol:

[SIWY]

Unfortunatelly Baton is illegal in UK and Poland too. For me this is stupid idea, thats all.

[Icarus1]

In CH we (LE) need a SPECIAL CERTIFICATION for carrying the ASP, but the pistol, pump action, smg is on our normal licence... they are more afraid of batons than of pump actions.

[JTAR7242]

It is mostly because they assume most people understand intuitively what a gun will do to people. An officer won't draw a gun and shoot someone unless they have to becuase they have a good chance of killing them.


It isn't always obvious to people that you can do serious damage with a baton. And you aren't as hesitant to draw it or apply it because of that false belief that it is "non" or "less-than" lethal.

[Hollis]

It is mostly because they assume most people understand intuitively what a gun will do to people. An officer won't draw a gun and shoot someone unless they have to becuase they have a good chance of killing them.


It isn't always obvious to people that you can do serious damage with a baton. And you aren't as hesitant to draw it or apply it because of that false belief that it is "non" or "less-than" lethal.

Exactly, one of the problem with the 7 cells Mag Lights, was officers would use them like batons, they were carried in a manner that did not look Offensive, or hostile to the citizen, but when needed it was right there.

Many agencies banned their use after one or two officers over time, wacked a person into the next life.

[22.5degrees]

The only places that sell them in my area are police supply, and they check you out but it is really self regulation. There are places to buy them on the internet that I'm sure don't check. I think ASP is pretty good about sorting out responsible retailers who won't sell their product to anyone. Our laws here in Oklahoam are like what 22.5 said though, getting caught with one will get you charged under "dangerous/deadly weapon" charges. I've arrested a few people with knock offs but never an ASP brand impact weapon.

As far as the difference, its mainly ease of carry. I know quite a few guys in our department that said the old "hickories" were the way to go. I've always used the ASP so I don't know personally.


Here in Canada it depends on the officer. By law, simply carrying one can land you charges. Seeing as how you've already been "detained" or questioned by the officer, I'd bank on having additional charges laid for mere possession on your persons. Plenty of folks carry one in the car for obvious reasons. As far as I know(atleast in the city I live) an officer cannot search your vehicle without due cause. Things like visible weapons, drugs, etc etc would be just cause. Stolen plates, DUI would also permit the officer to search your vehicle. Unless it is in plain view, there is little chance of getting caught. I know a buddy of mine actually hit a guy in the parking lot of a bank with his baton. Plenty of witnesses, yet nothing happened. The guy got up and ran off(he was acting a little crazy before he got hit) so my buddy got in his car and drove off.

Still a big risk. Some officers might believe some BS reason for carrying one such as "I'm scared of dogs", or "I use it for martial arts training". Obviously these stories wouldn't work if you got caught with it in the mall, or say using it in a fight.

Don't forget, if you attempt to hide or conceal the baton in a fashion not "perceived" as a normal method of carrying, expect a concealed weapons charge. This applies to knives as well. So hiding your knife inside your sock/boot then covering it up with your pant leg would probably get you a concealed weapons charge.

22.5

[K.Johnston]

CA is restricted sale.

You can get permits to buy and carry them, but they are restricted to security personnel mostly.



Of course, due to CA's retarded laws, it is a felony to carry a collapsible baton illegally, but only a misdemeanor to carry a firearm illegally. :lol:

god help us.

now i remember why im not moving there.

[Roaming East]

CA has banned everything but crime apparently...wonder when they'll get around to outlawing the outlaws

[StukaJr]

CA is restricted sale.

You can get permits to buy and carry them, but they are restricted to security personnel mostly.

Of course, due to CA's retarded laws, it is a felony to carry a collapsible baton illegally, but only a misdemeanor to carry a firearm illegally. :lol:

Not so simple - it's a felony to carry a firearm if the law prohibits the person from owning one. It's only a misdemeanor if the individual is carrying a legally owned and registered firearm to that person but without a permission to do so - also known as California Grey Area Quasi-CCW. Also, it's only misdemeanor if it's a first offense. California also allows to carry a firearm for preservation with burden of proof laying on the individual if the officer decides to make an arrest.

But even a misdemeanor charge of carrying a firearm illegally will create a flurry of litigation problems, confiscation or transfer of all firearms and inability to own or purchase firearms for a period of 10 years... So much for a misdemeanor :)

[Glass2]

My Missouri CCW permit covers the carrying of an extendable baton so long as it is concealed.

[Limeyfellow]

Its illegal in the state I'm in in North Carolina thats for sure. There been a few people shot by some of the Sheriff departments just for being seen with them and they will throw the book at you should you be caught with one, as they consider it an illegal concealed deadly weapon.

[Mountain Man]

Mountain Man & 22.5 - you guys have piqued my curiosity.

When would somebody be charged with carrying it as a "dangerous/deadly weapon"?

If I was walking along the street and a police officer noticed I had one would he arrest me and charge me, or would it be more of a situation where it would be thrown in as an additional charge if you've already arrested someone for something else?

A similar scenario might be someone driving down the road with an axe in his pick-up, but it doesn't become a deadly weapon until he attacks someone with it.


Here in Canada it depends on the officer. By law, simply carrying one can land you charges. Seeing as how you've already been "detained" or questioned by the officer, I'd bank on having additional charges laid for mere possession on your persons. Plenty of folks carry one in the car for obvious reasons. As far as I know(atleast in the city I live) an officer cannot search your vehicle without due cause. Things like visible weapons, drugs, etc etc would be just cause. Stolen plates, DUI would also permit the officer to search your vehicle. Unless it is in plain view, there is little chance of getting caught. I know a buddy of mine actually hit a guy in the parking lot of a bank with his baton. Plenty of witnesses, yet nothing happened. The guy got up and ran off(he was acting a little crazy before he got hit) so my buddy got in his car and drove off.

Still a big risk. Some officers might believe some BS reason for carrying one such as "I'm scared of dogs", or "I use it for martial arts training". Obviously these stories wouldn't work if you got caught with it in the mall, or say using it in a fight.

Don't forget, if you attempt to hide or conceal the baton in a fashion not "perceived" as a normal method of carrying, expect a concealed weapons charge. This applies to knives as well. So hiding your knife inside your sock/boot then covering it up with your pant leg would probably get you a concealed weapons charge.

22.5


It's pretty much like 22.5 said but our grounds for searches seems a little different. Not suprising though because many things are different between states in the US. Even lethal force justification can be wildly different between state/circuit courts. For the baton though simple possession meets our local and state standards here but couple that with other illegal activity or concealment then thats where we get interested in arrests. We have better things to do than hammer you for something stupid, but if you are up to something it can rapidly peak our interest quickly. It's all about intent and justifying why you believe it was for a harmful purpose, aka Probable Cause. I've come across some real stupid reasons before that did not match what we were being told.

In response to your axe question it is the same. Give me justification to believe that it is to be used in an offensive manner and you'll get arrested. An expandable baton though is made as an offsensive/defensive weapon. A fist load or brass knuckles are made as a weapon too. Those two are a load easier to prove that they were to be used as a weapon. Goes back to probable cause and what we can justify. I've arrested plenty of people with knives that for a multitude of reasons, and let others go.

However on a funny/scary note, in Oklahoma though we have a law that still lets people drrive around with rifle racks in the rear window of pickups as long as they are unloaded. :bash: Go figure

[Mountain Man]

CA has banned everything but crime apparently...wonder when they'll get around to outlawing the outlaws

LOL, <with a sense of sarcasm> Funny how all the banning harasses the good guys and doesn't seem to stop the bad guys

[playtym]

In response to your axe question it is the same. Give me justification to believe that it is to be used in an offensive manner and you'll get arrested.

In SA we operate along similar lines. A black powder rifle isn't deemed to be a firearm under the Arms and Ammunition Act, but you'd be charged under the Dangersous Weapons Act if caught breaking the law with it.



LOL, <with a sense of sarcasm> Funny how all the banning harasses the good guys and doesn't seem to stop the bad guys

Just look at the South African situation to see how well gun control works. Our new Arms and Ammunition Act was implemented in 2000 and it's done nothing to curb violent crime. Just the other week 25 guys armed with AK-47's walked into a supermarket and robbed it.


How's that bumper sticker go?

'When guns are outlawed, only outlaws will have guns.'

[martinexsquaddie]

you can buy asp batons in the uk and the like but probably be nicked if you were carrying one or had one in the house and the police raided it:(
the big old maglites make great batons and you can legally carry them as a security guard (i need a torch in case theres a power cut)

[Creeper]

Check the writing in that ad again, Creeper. It says sales in CALIFORNIA and CANADA are restricted to law enforcement.
Thankfully, California's weapons laws do not apply to the rest of the U.S.

Hey, do not burn me, I just posted the link ! * There mite be a real good reason why 'Wall-Mart' doesn't sell them ! LOL
Have the best day ever!
OH BTW check the link from ASP>http://www.asp-net.com/Support/FAQ.asp#5

[RFSU]

playtym: to answer your question, It will be up to the individual officer to make that call. Certain items, like a baton or a knife, will always land you in trouble because they are weapons by design. However if you were to carry an axe or a brick, as is the example given to me when I was educated, then the officer is required to make the call based on his best judgment.

One real life example that I was involved in, in my first year, was when myself and a far wiser and more expirienced officer saw a young guy carrying a baseball bat down the street in broad daylight. My partner pulled him up on it and the guy said he was just heading to the park to meet some mates. We had no real reason to take him in so we took his details and let him go. That night one of the Detectives was talking about a beating that occured in the same area at around the same time, the weapon described was.....BINGO. and so they went and hauld him in and he was charged and convicted.

The point of the story however is that had it been a cricket bat we would not have batted an eyelid. Seriously its Australia, who the hell plays baseball in Australia!?

[Mountain Man]

Just the other week 25 guys armed with AK-47's walked into a supermarket and robbed it.


Holy cr@p that would not be fun to respond to! Out gunned and out manned.

[Hollis]

Holy cr@p that would not be fun to respond to! Out gunned and out manned.

I think my responce would have been, " would that be paper or plastic, Sir?"

[RFSU]

Yep, not much you can do in that case except create a standoff and call in the boys. even then you aint going to win.

[playtym]

Here's a news story relating to the incident. These guys died bravely in the line of duty, but my personal feeling is that they should have waited for the Task Force to arrive and do a proper penetration of the building. Maybe they weren't aware of the full situation when they did it and didn't realise that they'd be so outnumbered.


'Bloody Sunday' cops died in pairs
2006-06-27

The four policemen killed inside a robber gang's hideout in a bloody shoot-out died in pairs, riddled with bullets despite their protective vests. Johannesburg - The bodies of four policemen shot dead after they stormed a gang hideout were found in pairs in different rooms.

They had multiple wounds, despite wearing bullet-proof vests.
One of them had a supporting arm around his colleague.
The four police entered the semi-detached house in Mordaunt Street, Jeppestown, on Sunday morning after others had surrounded it in an effort to catch a gang of robbers who had been targeting shopping centres.
An experienced officer, who didn't want to be named, said on Tuesday the four had acted quite correctly when they enter the house.

They went in 'blind'
"Each house-penetration is different, and it is always extremely dangerous, especially when you don't know what layout of the house.
"You never know where the suspects might be hiding. The four did it according to the book," said one police officer.
According to him, the four probably didn't know how many robbers were hiding inside the house, nor how heavily armed they were.
He said: "Even with 100 reinforcements outside, it still is dangerous.
"Yet, the four guys were willing to enter, and that shows how brave they were. They made sure the gang didn't get away.
"If they hadn't done that, the gang could still be walking about freely, robbing places and hurting people."
Another officer said the surprise element was seldom on the police's side.
"If you are wearing a blue uniform, you are always a target.
"They (the four policemen killed) were not there to sit back and let others to do the job. They were not scared," he said.

VIPs express their condolences
Meanwhile, the Rev Kenneth Meshoe of the parliamentary portfolio committee for safety and security, Maggie Sotyu, chairperson of the committee, and other VIPs, visited the families of inspectors Victor Mathye, Frikkie van Heerden, sergeant Gert Schoeman and constable Francois Seaward on Tuesday. Commissioner Perumal Naidoo, chief of Gauteng police, and other senior police management also visited the families to express their condolences.

It was just the week before this that our Minister of Safety and Security, Charles Nqakula said that anybody who complained about the high crime rate in South Africa are 'whingers' and 'should leave the country'.

Then after this incident he does an about turn.


Violent nature of crime worries Nqakula
2006-06-26

Minister Charles Nqakula says he's very concerned about the serious and violent nature of crimes against "soft targets". Pretoria - Safety and Security Minister Charles Nqakula said on Monday he was very concerned about the serious and violent nature of crimes against "soft targets".

He said police action in high crime areas sometimes drove criminals out to other areas and places considered to be soft targets.
"That is why we are pushing for more and better resources for local police stations so that there is no area in South Africa that could be regarded as a soft target," Nqakula said.
He was reacting to reporters' questions following the weekend shoot-out in Johannesburg that left four policemen and eight robbers dead.
He again repeated his statement that anyone pointing a gun at a police officer would be killed.

Bloodshed 'regrettable'
"There is nobody who points a firearm at another person, not unless they mean to cause harm... You don't point a firearm and say 'my intention was to be a good person', " Nqakula said.
He said the bloodshed at the weekend's incident was regrettable.
"It is better, always, that people who are criminals be arrested and prosecuted."
But the situation required that police shoot back and said they had every right to do so.
"When you point a gun at someone, you are not playing. You seek to cause harm to that person," Nqakula said. He said police had the right, when a firearm was pointed at them, to protect themselves "by whatever way possible".

[Roaming East]

Reminds of a quote about graves being full of the brave...

[kamarian]

Here in queensland, all you need is a security licence. Accoeding to the weapons licence laws, you need a security weapons licence, and have had a defensive tactics course. a few guards i know carry one with just thier security licence.

[JTAR7242]

god help us.

now i remember why im not moving there.
Eh, when it is sunny and pleasant 250 days a year, you tend to get over minor stuff like retarded gun laws.


And thanks Stuka for taking a simple statement and unneccessarily complicating it. ;)

[22.5degrees]

How can you get over retarded gun laws? Your gov't is trampling your 2nd amendment rights, not to mention wasting your money policing such ignorant policies which as is evident are not working.

I live with stupid gun laws myself(I'm in Canada) however, there is no "right" for me to bear arms, which makes controlling them a whole lot easier. Nevertheless, I am vocal about my beliefs and I will not give up my arms for anyone, ever. As a member of the shooting community I participate where I can in the fight for more freedom and reduced/reworked legislation in regards to firearms.

22.5

[James]

I have a 21" ASP that I bought on the internet about 8 years ago. I have no idea if they're legal in WA or not. In any case, I have a Concealed Pistol License, and I have been using my ASP to prop open a window at home. Hehe.