Army 'can't go to war for five years'

[Geezah]

Britain's Armed Forces will not be able to mount another operation on the scale of the Iraq war for another five years, the Chief of Defence Staff said yesterday.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/graphics/2004/03/25/narmy25.jpg

Gen Sir Michael Walker told the Commons defence committee that the Army in particular would not be able to recover from operations in Iraq until 2008 or 2009.

"I think we have already accepted that we cannot do another large-scale operation now," he said. "We are unlikely to be able to get to large-scale much before the end of the decade, somewhere around 08 or 09." The claim goes much further than Adml Sir Michael Boyce, his predecessor, who said at the end of the war that the Armed Forces would not be ready for another such operation until the end of this year.

The Army has been stretched to breaking point by its involvement in the war on terrorism and a series of operational commitments in the Falklands, Cyprus, Sierra Leone, Bosnia, Kosovo, Afghanistan and Northern Ireland.

Sir Michael said the Army was still reconstituting units from the Iraq conflict and at the same time undergoing reorganisation.

He told the MPs that if he was asked to send the same number of troops to another troublespot urgently he would have to tell Geoff Hoon, the Defence Secretary, that "something will have to give".

The problems have already affected the deployment of extra troops to Afghanistan to back up the American-led hunt for Osama bin Laden. Defence chiefs have been considering sending 1,400 commandos and paratroopers to support the SAS and US special forces' operation in Afghanistan.

Operation Mountain Storm is led by Task Force 121, which is made up of US and British special forces units and has been ordered to capture bin Laden before the US presidential elections. But Gen John Reith, Chief of Joint Operations, has warned Sir Michael that the British troops could not be committed to the hunt for bin Laden for more than six months.

One of the two units being considered for Afghanistan, the Royal Marines' 40 Commando, was due to be sent to Basra, so if it goes to Afghanistan another infantry unit will have to be sent in its place.

There are even more problems finding paratroopers. The Parachute Regiment's second battalion is in Basra, the first is on standby to fly to Kosovo, and the third, which would have to go, is training for a tour in Northern Ireland.

Sir Michael's complaint to the defence committee comes days after 700 men were sent to Kosovo, adding to the pressure faced by planners to identify units that could be deployed.

Gen Sir Mike Jackson, Chief of General Staff, told the MPs that the Army was short of medics and experts in "human intelligence" gathering, both of which skills are heavily dependent on reservists.

Large numbers are now resigning from the TA, largely because they cannot combine the increasing demands being made on reservists with their civilian careers.

One senior TA source said it was clear that many were waiting to receive their annual £1,000 bonus before resigning.

[Gringo]

Oh after the Iraq war they said it'll only be 2 years, we only had 1 year to go. :( Pooo!

[flickme]

Wow. I had no idea they were that short on men.

[ShadowNeo]

With so many operational commitments your going to encounter troop constraints.

Recently though, there have been much more visible advertisements for the forces, I see at least 3-4 television advertisements per day and advertisements on buses, advertising boards etc. There does seem to be a shift in advertising now from TA to regular also.

[Gringo]

Interesting though. It seems to me that "join the armed forces" advertisements always come out in January.

The problems are not with the number of armed forces personel but with the bloody equipment shortages. It can put people off joining the army as you wouldn't like the idea of having sharp stick as your only weapon. I say, NO MORE BLOODY CUTS!!!
But the armed forces is very over-stretched, the americans think that there's is.
Where abouts do with have troops serving at the moment?

I've forgotten what I'm talking about now. :cantbeli:

[Geezah]

Interesting though. It seems to me that "join the armed forces" advertisements always come out in January.

The problems are not with the number of armed forces personel but with the bloody equipment shortages. It can put people off joining the army as you wouldn't like the idea of having sharp stick as your only weapon. I say, NO MORE BLOODY CUTS!!!
But the armed forces is very over-stretched, the americans think that there's is.
Where abouts do with have troops serving at the moment?

I've forgotten what I'm talking about now. :cantbeli:

I heard on the radio that they were laying Paras off while on active duty in Iraq? what's up with that?

[ShadowNeo]

The only way you won't see any more substantial cuts seems to be if you stick with Labour in the election. The conservatives, from what I have seen, seem to be all too happy to do so.

As for equipment shortages it seems like that was mostly down to the outdated logistics "in theatre" system. If you look at our boys over in Iraq now they appear to have all the kit they need. It isn't as much an issue of physical shortages it seems but a substandard supply system (that is set to undergoe a big overhaul in 2005 I think).

I still, personally think they should focus more on regular recruitment rather than TA if they are over-using their TA counterparts.

[Geezah]

The only way you won't see any more substantial cuts seems to be if you stick with Labour in the election. The conservatives, from what I have seen, seem to be all too happy to do so.

As for equipment shortages it seems like that was mostly down to the outdated logistics "in theatre" system. If you look at our boys over in Iraq now they appear to have all the kit they need. It isn't as much an issue of physical shortages it seems but a substandard supply system (that is set to undergoe a big overhaul in 2005 I think).

I still, personally think they should focus more on regular recruitment rather than TA if they are over-using their TA counterparts.

But it's the Labour Government that are ok-ing the layoffs? And as far as our boys having the kit now that's abit of a joke, they get what they need after the heat of the battle?

It's a shame they can't try Jeff Hoon for Sgt Steve Roberts death!

[ShadowNeo]

And as far as our boys having the kit now that's abit of a joke, they get what they need after the heat of the battle?

I pointed that out to prove my point that it was not necessarily the amount of kit available that was at fault but the supply system. Its pretty apparent that what happened during the conflict wasn't acceptable - im not trying to defend that.

[Gringo]

I say we...... hang Hoon!
The time for a revolution is at hand!
Who's with me?

[fantassin]

Funny to see that General Walker has the rarely seen "light bulb" para badge at the bottom of his left sleeve.

[gaz]

Where abouts do with have troops serving at the moment?


Off the top of my head - Northern Ireland, Afghanistan, Iraq, Bosnia, Kosovo, Sierra Leone, Cyprus, Kenya, Germany, Canada and the Falklands.

Of course some of those are only for training.

[Geezah]

Where abouts do with have troops serving at the moment?


Off the top of my head - Northern Ireland, Afghanistan, Iraq, Bosnia, Kosovo, Sierra Leone, Cyprus, Kenya, Germany, Canada and the Falklands.

Of course some of those are only for training.

Taken from the original post,

The Army has been stretched to breaking point by its involvement in the war on terrorism and a series of operational commitments in the Falklands, Cyprus, Sierra Leone, Bosnia, Kosovo, Afghanistan and Northern Ireland.

[Gringo]

Where abouts do with have troops serving at the moment?


Off the top of my head - Northern Ireland, Afghanistan, Iraq, Bosnia, Kosovo, Sierra Leone, Cyprus, Kenya, Germany, Canada and the Falklands.

Of course some of those are only for training.

Isn't there a small presence on Brunei or Borneo?

[W(M)D]

I still, personally think they should focus more on regular recruitment rather than TA if they are over-using their TA counterparts.

Cheaper to recruit TA as to 'train' them takes alot less time then a Reg and then the TA soldiers are suddenly classed as fit for role and mobilised for the big sand box.
Also, they cost less to administer in comparison to their counterpart. The army hierarchy and politicians dont care what type of soldiers are posted so long as they have 'bums on seats' whether TA or Reg.

[WARPIG]

Just an observation. I think the size of your armed force is going to benefit in the short range from all of this "action." The Op tempo may be a big strain logistically but hopefully a learning experience. I am sure the US supply and logistics system is being looked at and learned from. Not the best system but for the scale that we operate at... it's looking to work much better. We also had issues with having pieces of our forces in country not having all the kit they needed. Many troops were spending better then $1000 US to buy personal gear. Now the logistics command is doing some smarter things to fill the gap. "Off the shelf" thinking is finding its way to logistics practice as well as technology. Buying existing equipment from retail markets is proving faster and more cost efficient than contracting companies to manufacture items for the US ARMY. Things like protective vests, load bearing equipment, protective gear, boots, optics for weapons, etc are being issued to units by priority of deployment. Some stop gap measures have changed the way the US ARMY has done things logistically and seem to be helping. Maybe the UK powers that be could do something similar and give you squaddies the proper kit before you need it.
Also the high optempo is going to give your force a leadership core that has more practical experience.

[Royal]

Just an observation. I think the size of your armed force is going to benefit in the short range from all of this "action." The Op tempo may be a big strain logistically but hopefully a learning experience. I am sure the US supply and logistics system is being looked at and learned from. Not the best system but for the scale that we operate at... it's looking to work much better. We also had issues with having pieces of our forces in country not having all the kit they needed. Many troops were spending better then $1000 US to buy personal gear. Now the logistics command is doing some smarter things to fill the gap. "Off the shelf" thinking is finding its way to logistics practice as well as technology. Buying existing equipment from retail markets is proving faster and more cost efficient than contracting companies to manufacture items for the US ARMY. Things like protective vests, load bearing equipment, protective gear, boots, optics for weapons, etc are being issued to units by priority of deployment. Some stop gap measures have changed the way the US ARMY has done things logistically and seem to be helping. Maybe the UK powers that be could do something similar and give you squaddies the proper kit before you need it.
Also the high optempo is going to give your force a leadership core that has more practical experience.

We're getting plenty of Gucci off the shelf kit (though some decent radios would be usefull).

The problem's with the Op tempo - we don't need more f**king operational experience - even line units are pulling 2 tours every 18 months - forget Int, SF and the like.

How the f**k are we supposed to train units for new roles (or old ones - look at the fiasco in Norway with 3 Cdo Bde), train guys for promotion or specialist roles. How are we supposed to have a f**king life? I've just had all of 4 days bast*rd leave, the first since last August.

Sh*t, sorry, rant over :bash:

[Royal]

Just an observation. I think the size of your armed force is going to benefit in the short range from all of this "action." The Op tempo may be a big strain logistically but hopefully a learning experience. I am sure the US supply and logistics system is being looked at and learned from. Not the best system but for the scale that we operate at... it's looking to work much better. We also had issues with having pieces of our forces in country not having all the kit they needed. Many troops were spending better then $1000 US to buy personal gear. Now the logistics command is doing some smarter things to fill the gap. "Off the shelf" thinking is finding its way to logistics practice as well as technology. Buying existing equipment from retail markets is proving faster and more cost efficient than contracting companies to manufacture items for the US ARMY. Things like protective vests, load bearing equipment, protective gear, boots, optics for weapons, etc are being issued to units by priority of deployment. Some stop gap measures have changed the way the US ARMY has done things logistically and seem to be helping. Maybe the UK powers that be could do something similar and give you squaddies the proper kit before you need it.
Also the high optempo is going to give your force a leadership core that has more practical experience.

We're getting plenty of Gucci off the shelf kit (though some decent radios would be usefull).

The problem's with the Op tempo - we don't need more f**king operational experience - even line units are pulling 2 tours every 18 months - forget Int, SF and the like.

How the f**k are we supposed to train units for new roles (or old ones - look at the fiasco in Norway with 3 Cdo Bde), train guys for promotion or specialist roles. How are we supposed to have a f**king life? I've just had all of 4 days bast*rd leave, the first since last August.

Sh*t, sorry, rant over :bash:

[Royal]

Just an observation. I think the size of your armed force is going to benefit in the short range from all of this "action." The Op tempo may be a big strain logistically but hopefully a learning experience. I am sure the US supply and logistics system is being looked at and learned from. Not the best system but for the scale that we operate at... it's looking to work much better. We also had issues with having pieces of our forces in country not having all the kit they needed. Many troops were spending better then $1000 US to buy personal gear. Now the logistics command is doing some smarter things to fill the gap. "Off the shelf" thinking is finding its way to logistics practice as well as technology. Buying existing equipment from retail markets is proving faster and more cost efficient than contracting companies to manufacture items for the US ARMY. Things like protective vests, load bearing equipment, protective gear, boots, optics for weapons, etc are being issued to units by priority of deployment. Some stop gap measures have changed the way the US ARMY has done things logistically and seem to be helping. Maybe the UK powers that be could do something similar and give you squaddies the proper kit before you need it.
Also the high optempo is going to give your force a leadership core that has more practical experience.

We're getting plenty of Gucci off the shelf kit (though some decent radios would be usefull).

The problem's with the Op tempo - we don't need more f**king operational experience - even line units are pulling 2 tours every 18 months - forget Int, SF and the like.

How the f**k are we supposed to train units for new roles (or old ones - look at the fiasco in Norway with 3 Cdo Bde), train guys for promotion or specialist roles. How are we supposed to have a f**king life? I've just had all of 4 days bast*rd leave, the first since last August.

Sh*t, sorry, rant over :bash:

[WARPIG]

WOW Royal.... not only ranted on me 3 times.. but had to get all technical with me. ;)

I hear ya on the Optempo issue. I know it's gotta be chaffing the balls quite a bit right now. But you know what I mean by having that practical experience in the future right?
I brought that up becuase when I first went to the 82nd, most of that post was just getting back from Desert Storm. Lots of young enlisted competing against each other for promotion because of the moves up top. Competition was really fierce, a guy with no combat experience like me really had to show his ass when it came to competing for promotion. I had to be clearly better, faster, and smarter than the other guy just to get considered. It pissed me off but it definately raised the bar for us.
Logistically, I guess most militaries have to adjust to the changes in the combat culture of today. The Gucci kit seems to be working well so the logistics chain needs to open those lines a bit more. The IDF seems to have a good grasp of things on the logistical support end of things. Enjoy your leave mate.

[W(M)D]

IDF seems to have a good grasp of things on the logistical support end of things

It also benefits from short lines of supply and operates only 'locally'.