I thought I would share this

[Dennis G]

Billy Graham's daughter was interviewed on the Early Show and Jane Clayson asked her "How could God let something like this happen?" (regarding the attacks on Sept. 11).

Anne Graham gave an extremely profound and insightful response. She said "I believe God is deeply saddened by this, just as we are, but for years we've been telling God to get out of our schools, to get out of our government and to get out of our lives.

And being the gentleman He is, I believe He has calmly backed out. How can we expect God to give us His blessing and His protection if we demand He leave us alone?"

In light of recent events...terrorists attack, school shootings, etc. I think it started when Madeleine Murray O'Hare (she was murdered, her body found recently) complained she didn't want prayer in our schools, and we said OK.

Then someone said you better not read the Bible in school . the Bible says thou shalt not kill, thou shalt not steal, and love your neighbor as yourself. And we said OK.

Then Dr. Benjamin Spock said we shouldn't spank our children when they misbehave because their little personalities would be warped and we might damage their self-esteem (Dr. Spock's son committed suicide). We said an expert should know what he's talking about. And we said OK.

Now we're asking ourselves why our children have no conscience, why they don't know right from wrong, and why it doesn't bother them to kill strangers, their classmates, and themselves.

Probably, if we think about it long and hard enough, we can figure it out. I think it has a great deal to do with "WE REAP WHAT WE SOW."

Funny how simple it is for people to trash God and then wonder why the world's going to hell. Funny how we believe what the newspapers say, but question what the Bible says.

Funny how you can send 'jokes' through e-mail and they spread like wildfire but when you start sending messages regarding the Lord, people think twice about sharing.

Funny how lewd, crude, vulgar and obscene articles pass freely through cyberspace, but public discussion of God is suppressed in the school and workplace.

Are you laughing?

[George W. Bush]

Don't **** with Jesus.

[Ichhabe]

Don't f*** with Jesus.

...cause if you do, your gay. :D

[Ratamacue]

The reason we keep "God" out of school is because we have freedom of religion. If we read the bible in school or put the Ten Commandments up, that means that to be fair, we would have to read the Torah, Quran, put the Five Pillars up, etc. I also find it extremely insulting for her to essentially state that the "reason" that "our children have no conscience, why they don't know right from wrong, and why it doesn't bother them to kill strangers, their classmates, and themselves" is because of a lack-of-belief and that "the world's gone to hell" because people trash God.

I don't really have any huge problems with religion as long as people keep to themselves. I've never once myself believed in a religion. I don't really believe in supreme beings controlling my fate. Does that mean that I have no conscience, that I don't know right from wrong, that it wouldn't bother me if I killed someone? This is only problem I have with religions, that people all too often shove their beliefs down your throat and say that your lack-of-belief is the reason for all your misfortune or that we should all believe in God and the world will be all happy.

[George W. Bush]

The reason we keep "God" out of school is because we have freedom of religion. If we read the bible in school or put the Ten Commandments up, that means that to be fair, we would have to read the Torah, Quran, put the Five Pillars up, etc. I also find it extremely insulting for her to essentially state that the "reason" that "our children have no conscience, why they don't know right from wrong, and why it doesn't bother them to kill strangers, their classmates, and themselves" is because of a lack-of-belief and that "the world's gone to hell" because people trash God.

I don't really have any huge problems with religion as long as people keep to themselves. I've never once myself believed in a religion. I don't really believe in supreme beings controlling my fate. Does that mean that I have no conscience, that I don't know right from wrong, that it wouldn't bother me if I killed someone? This is only problem I have with religions, that people all too often shove their beliefs down your throat and say that your lack-of-belief is the reason for all your misfortune or that we should all believe in God and the world will be all happy.

Did you know that the U.S. was founded on Judeo-Christian principles and that our official religion is Christianity?

[Ratamacue]

Half of the world is founded on Judeo-Christian principles, and are the principles shared by virtually every culture on the planet. It means nothing.

By the way, the US has no official religion.

[AK-Lover]

I think that public schools should be for christians and if other religions want "fairness" they can build there own schools! :bash:
Man, if they said i couldn't bring me bible to school due to recent anti-muslim violence incited by 'someone" :roll: I'd say **** off!

[Trigger]

Ratamacue,

You are a well spoken young man. Where did you learn right from wrong? Not from church or 'any religion'. Probably from mom and dad right?

Where did they learn it?

[Ratamacue]

I learn right and wrong from my parents and just from what you pick up from school. You could probably say the same for my parents, as their families weren't religious at all really. You really don't need religion or anything like that to pick up morals. And yes, once again, I know that western culture is based on Judeo-Christian principles and morals.

[Trigger]

That's my point.
Where do you think your morals originated?

I'm not trying to flame you Rat, but some people get so wrapped up in justifying their atheism that they actually try to rewrite the history of this country. Not you, but the people who want to take words out of the pledge of allegiance, etc.

[Ratamacue]

I couldn't give less of a **** about the Pledge of Allegiance. It's not even required for you to say it in school, and if you're reprimanded for not doing so, the school is wrong.

But the origination of morals is a moot point nowadays. The fact is, those morals are pretty much embedded in every single culture in the world. Is there any civilized culture today that advocates murder, thievery, and hatred?

It's true that despite what the Constitution or Declaration of Independence may say, the country has never entirely had separation between church and state. But the fact is, with the country becoming more and more multicultural every year, to try to bridge church and state is highly illogical. You really don't need to put something like the Ten Commandments up in a school either, because the same principle rules are shoved down children's throats (I mean that in a good way) from Kindergarten and on, and every day at school rules are enforced based on those principles (don't tease him, can you help this kid with the worksheet, etc.).

My basic point is that regardless of history, religion does not define morals in the US anymore, it's civilized culture as a whole. I think most people can agree that the Catholic Church is highly corrupt in many areas (much more so than other sects of Christianity), and even throughout Medival and ancient history, when the overwhelming majority of people were religious, there was corruption everywhere. Reinstating belief in God into everyone isn't going to change anything drastically.

[fred_engles]

Yeah, I love visiting countries that are non-christian, because they have absolutely no concept of morality whatsoever. *cough* *cough*

[Mr Gently Benevolent]

Yeah, I love visiting countries that are non-christian, because they have absolutely no concept of morality whatsoever. *cough* *cough*What like New York.

[ßå$tĮТHÏ¿ð]

Isnt Billy Graham a TV evangelist? :roll:

[Trigger]

@ bastardchild, Billy Graham is a Christian evangelist who has done decades worth of missionary work all over the world. This has included TV evangelism, but he is a true Christian and to my knowledge can't be painted with the same 'televangelist' brush you're thinking of.


Yeah, I love visiting countries that are non-christian, because they have absolutely no concept of morality whatsoever. *cough* *cough*
Yeah *cough* way to *cough* make a point about something nobody said in this *cough* thread.


Is there any civilized culture today that advocates murder, thievery, and hatred? Palestine comes to mind...

You really don't need to put something like the Ten Commandments up in a school either. We also don't need to tear them down if they are already in place.

My basic point is that regardless of history, religion does not define morals in the US anymore. That's the problem. Are we 'more civilized' than we used to be?

Reinstating belief in God into everyone isn't going to change anything drastically. That's the problem with this argument. You're implying that it's somehow wrong to acknowledge religion anywhere but in a church. Well I should say a 'certain' religion. Like it or not this country was founded on Christian beliefs by Christian men.

[George W. Bush]

Who's the idiot Christian leader who campaigned for Bush 41?

[Haiw]

yadda yadda yadda
Are you laughing?
Yes I am.
:roll:

I know our morals are based on Christian ancestry for a big part, but this article sounds just like some Christian guy who's just sad to see his religion losing terrain. Hey, believe all that you want, but when you start forcing it on people you go too far (also keep in mind that the younger generations are getting more and more atheïstic by the day...and no that has jack **** to do with less and less religion; take NI for example...or the Middle East.)

[Kaworu Shiro]

I'm with those who are against religion on the schools and such...
I'm all for teaching morals, but defining them to a specific religion seems way too one sided or alienating for my taste.
It's like in good ol US Gov class... learning about the bell-shaped curve of left-ists and right-ists... take for example the middle east and even european conflicts involving religion.
'least in the US we don't have people gassing people for not believing what they believe.

regardless of what religion was biased to during the establishment of (for example) the US gov. their principle was to allow for equal rights for those to represent what they want to represent, no? So sure, if you start believing in a religion you're free to do so, and practice it without being prosecuted, but once ya start forcing other people to conform to a religion... or harassing people to bias one religion over another (or none) then I think that's as good as what started the American Revolution... forcing taxes like forcing religion, lil different, but principally the same.

EDIT: getting back to the article... I find it amusing someone is explaining these events with religious reasoning.
Explaining real-world situations with abstract religious ideas is like blind reasoning, cause this happens with this and that, then they *must* have a common cause... psych has probably taught me the most in that correlation does not prove causation, because things move in common directions doesn't mean that they're related to one another.

[Gringo]

Who's the idiot Christian leader who campaigned for Bush 41?

It was me!
But wait, I'm an Athiest, and not an idiot (sometimes).
What's Bush41?

[Kriz]

"Why it doesn't botter them too kill strangers"

You have got to be kidding me, during mediaevil times here in Europe people were much more religuos, you think they had trouble killing eachother?
You're trying to tell us that people who don't believe in a certain religion have no morals, don't mind go out and shoot people, make this world a bad place to live...

Well I'm sorry to bring it to you but it means nothing if you're religous or not. On the contrary I think religion is often an extra reason for people to kill others. To give an actual example if it wouldn't be for Islam chances are pretty big that 9/11 would have never happened. So how do you explain this then ? Those people are perhaps the most religous in the world so they would have more moral and decency then people who don't believe ?

Give me a break and keep your religion and the crap you're trying to feed us to yourself because it makes no sense. Religios people are no better then unreligous ones.

[Mr Gently Benevolent]

Fact, pin up girl Betty Page was once Billy Grahams PA.
http://www.artgasm.com/bettypage/betty1/betty20page.jpg

;) ;)

[Ratamacue]

Trigger[/color]]Is there any civilized culture today that advocates murder, thievery, and hatred? Palestine comes to mind...

You really don't need to put something like the Ten Commandments up in a school either. We also don't need to tear them down if they are already in place.

My basic point is that regardless of history, religion does not define morals in the US anymore. That's the problem. Are we 'more civilized' than we used to be?

Reinstating belief in God into everyone isn't going to change anything drastically. That's the problem with this argument. You're implying that it's somehow wrong to acknowledge religion anywhere but in a church. Well I should say a 'certain' religion. Like it or not this country was founded on Christian beliefs by Christian men.


Don't start this "Arabs/Muslims are murderous and uncivilized" bull****, that's about the most ignorant statement you can possibly make.

My opinion is that we're not more or less civilized, but rather different. I'm not saying that it's wrong to acknowledge religion outside of a church, but a public institution like a school, which can greatly sway the feelings and beliefs of a child, is not the right place to do it. As I said, there's no reason to put the ten commandments up. You want to put a poster somewhere with the same rules, go ahead, but don't advertise Christianity or Judaism or anything on it.

Sure this country was founded on Christian beliefs by Christian men, but like it or not, this country also granted freedom of religion. By shoving religious material down children's throats, you're essentially taking a baseball bat and hitting it out into the parking lot.

[Trigger]

http://us.news2.yimg.com/us.yimg.com/p/ap/20040326/capt.lon81003261632.mideast_israel_palestinians_lon810.jpg

Don't start this "Arabs/Muslims are murderous and uncivilized" bull****, that's about the most ignorant statement you can possibly make.

Nevermind. I'm done.

[California Joe]

Fact, pin up girl Betty Page was once Billy Grahams PA.
http://www.artgasm.com/bettypage/betty1/betty20page.jpg

;) ;)

Bettie was hot. Oh yes.

[Tane Angle]

Religious laws stem from people's instinctive morals, not our morals from our religious laws. Look at animals. They don't kill unless necessary to survive. They kill for food, and kill to protect their food source, but do not aside from that. We are little different from them. It lessens our ability to survive if we commit murder. 4.5 billion years of evolution have taught us that.

The Ten Commandments aren't necessary to know that murder is bad. Dogs and rats know that much. Religious laws are evolutionary constructs that allow us to better survive. Why do we get married? Because it ensures that pregnant wives and small children are cared for. Why do some religions have polygamy and some have monogamy? It depends on the survival needs of that area. Why no shellfish and pigs for Jews? Because they don't work real well in the deserts of Israel. Why no cows for Hindus? Because they're more valuable as sources of milk than of meat in India. I think the point is made, no?

And isn't it interesting, even amazing, how morals are essentially the same the world over, despite the societies developing separately, the common ancestors and the common survival needs have brought about such similar laws. People don't need the Ten Commandments in every school to know morals.

What's more, constitutionally, the USG and its sub-governments can neither be biased towards one religion nor biased against another. The US isn't based on Judeo-Christian beliefs, it's based on homo sapiens sapiens-and on a larger scale, organic-survival requirements.

"Do unto others as ye would have done unto you." No? I doubt most Christians would want the Five Pillars of Islam or the Eight Fold Path of Buddhism in schools.

Besides, how sure are we that Christianity is the right one? Maybe they all are, maybe none are. The Druze of Lebanon and parts around sort of combine things, maybe they're on to something there. Maybe it doesn't matter. I can't image why God would care. If he wanted us all to be Christian, He would have made us so. He is all-powerful and all-seeing, no? It'd be as easy as one, two, three for Him.

And even if Christianity is the right one, which Christianity? There wasn't a unified Church until halfway into the first millennium. Thomas has good points, but so do some others. But there are hundreds, if not thousands, of instances where the Gospels conflict with one another.

Also noteworthy is the fact that we are not the only species on this planet to have religion.

Now this is not to say that I don't support religion, because I do. It helps people get through a tough day like nothing else can. Indeed, I consider myself to be a very spiritual person. And I am a Christian. But we cannot violate the Constitution.

As always, I apologize in advance if I miswrote and offended anyone, as that was not my intent. Have a good one all, and just some thoughts…

[Fox2]

It's true that despite what the Constitution or Declaration of Independence may say, the country has never entirely had separation between church and state.

Neither of those documents talks about separation of church and state.

Furthermore, separation of church and state simply means that the church cannot control government, and government cannot control the church. The context of this was to keep another Church of England from cropping up here in the 'States.

It does not mean that the government cannot even acknowledge religion.


As a Christian, I have no intention of forcing my beliefs on other people, simply because that's not what Christianity is about or what is outlined in the Scripture.

The problem I have with the current state of affairs is everything that is remotely Christian is out and out forced out, but anything other than Christianity is given special treatment. There are cases of public schools giving Muslim children time out of class to pray in their own private room. Meanwhile, kids who follow the Christian faith are shown that if they exhibit any outwardly appearances of their religion, then they are infringing on others' rights.



Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the government for a redress of grievances.

[Tane Angle]

After reading Fox2's post, I wanted to mention that I don't know what's up with France, but I see no reason to ban Crucifixes or Hajabs or what not in schools or wherever.

[California Joe]

The Bahai religion recognizes and assimilates all other major religions.

I agree with the idea that it is rather presumtuous of Christians to claim the one true religion. How fortuitous for us to be born in a Christian country. Too bad God didn't give a rat's ass about all those Chinese Buddhists that had the misfortune to be born in a non Christian country. Does anyone see the ridiculousness of that? An all powerful God condemning most of the population of his created world to Hell.

[Haiw]

That's just his way to fight the overpopulation in heaven! ;)

[Tane Angle]

Good post, Rich. I couldn't remember the name Bahai for some reason. Good point there.

[Yard Ape]

I think that public schools should be for christians and if other religions want "fairness" they can build there own schools!
Man, if they said i couldn't bring me bible to school due to recent anti-muslim violence incited by 'someone" :roll: I'd say f*** off!Hypocrite. Read what you just wrote.

Why should Jewish, Catholic, Buddhist, Muslim, Hind, etc tax dollars fund Protestant schools? Why should Protestant tax dollars fund schools for any other religion?

If we are going to talk about Jeudo-Christian values on which most of North America was founded, perhaps we should also remember some of the “values” that were once seen to fit in this list. Things like Anglo-Saxon supremacy, the acceptability of slavery, war time internment camps, superiority of the male *** (including voting rights), etc. A lot of times it was religion that was used to support these things. It was educated, intelligent and/or victimised people that realised injustices were being done, and it was educated, intelligent and/or victimised people that lead movements to fix things.

[Flagg]

Funny how simple it is for people to trash God and then wonder why the world's going to hell. Funny how we believe what the newspapers say, but question what the Bible says.

Funny how religion has often been the catalyst for warfare and ethnic cleansing


Funny how you can send 'jokes' through e-mail and they spread like wildfire but when you start sending messages regarding the Lord, people think twice about sharing.

Funny how those who share their religious beliefs without invitation don't understand why people find it as offensive as if they had shared their personal ****** peccadillos...something private....that should remain that way.


Funny how lewd, crude, vulgar and obscene articles pass freely through cyberspace, but public discussion of God is suppressed in the school and workplace.

I'd rather not be marked for future ethnic cleansing rofl


Are you laughing?

at you, not with you

Leave religion at the door......with the firearms...that way..no one gets hurt

Oh yeah.....personal pet peeve......having Jehovah's Witnesses wreck a perfectly good Saturday morning by knocking on my damn door......

someone explain to me how a person who dedicates their life to selflessly helping others will burn for eternal damnation because they weren't a Jehovah's Witness?

Call me evil, but I'm happy to argue all day long in the hopes of casting doubt in their minds...they asked for it by knocking on my damn door

Maybe I'm a bit ornery today.....but I think most, if not all, organized religion exists as a crutch for the weak minded.

[Tane Angle]

While I don't really agree with evangelism, I suppose that evangelizing not-religion is very much like evangelizing a religion. It is, after all, a belief. I guess that maybe we should all believe what we want to, and not push what we feel on others, myself included. Now this thread is at least currently about religion in schools, so that is different from religion itself. And science is relatively even between religions. It doesn't take sides. But a non-belief is a belief, is it not? That doesn't refer to science as a non-belief, by the way. Science is in a third category.

If religion is a crutch of the weak-minded, so be it. I don't find it to be, but to each their own. Religion does help a lot of people get through tough times. It can be like a friend, a comfort. That's a major point of it-to help people just get through the day. If it helps, and doesn't hurt others, go for it, no?

Anyways, I'm rambling. Have a good one all, and just some thoughts...

[Haiw]

rofl
Those Jehova witnesses put me at a blacklist or something...I went in discussion with them a while back, haven't seen 'em since. :lol:

[Haiw]

Technically non-belief can't be a belief...just look at the word. p-) It's just lack of belief. But maybe I'm just rambling too. ;)

[Seoulstriker]

The reason we keep "God" out of school is because we have freedom of religion.


refer to the first amendment.



Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the government for a redress of grievances.


i'm not directing this really to you, ratamacue, but rather to what you said and how it figures into what is happening in our culture today. what many have been calling for in our public school system is the 'separation of church and state'. in essence, people want the government to legislate the prohibition of the free exercise of citizens. when students for whatever reason bring their christian faith to school, they are criticized by the administration of the schools and are subject to discipline.

now, based on our constitution, what administrations do to these students is completely illegal, yet it is still seen by administrations as the correct implementation of 'separation of church and state'. now, certain courts will upheld the constitution, but others will defer the strength of our constitution to anti-christian zealots. recently, our constitution has been attacked by someone who wants to remove 'under god' from the pledge.

this case is necessary in order to straighten out the definitions of religion and belief in god. of course, the founding fathers of this country all believed in the Creator. what does that mean for us today?


and onto the topic of the existence of god, i somewhat defer to Tane Angle, as he agrees with me that the origin of the universe is not possible without a creator being, as long as the laws of physics hold true.


what is troubling about the pledge case is not about the question of the existence of god but the legislation of the religion of atheism into the country.


just some thoughts. have a good one.

[Haiw]

So what are you saying? That the exercition of a students' religion has become a problem in schools? If so, you have my full consent to rip on those that want to infringe on those rights. However I believe that schools themselves should have totally no religious entity at all. Sure, leave freedom to the students for their own religions, but don't exercise any religions as a teaching institution. That's the way it should be IMO; give them a 'neutral' education, where you give them room to make up their own mind and act accordingly...

[Yard Ape]

...
recently, our constitution has been attacked by someone who wants to remove 'under god' from the pledge.
...
what is troubling about the pledge case is not about the question of the existence of god but the legislation of the religion of atheism into the country. I disagree. This would not legislate atheism. It would only allow those of non-Christian beliefs the "free exercise" of their beliefs (by not forcing this Christian pledge on them). Government & government institutions must be "religion neutral." Anything else would infringe on anybody who chooses to practice something other.

[Yard Ape]

So what are you saying? That the exercition of a students' religion has become a problem in schools? If so, you have my full consent to rip on those that want to infringe on those rights. However I believe that schools themselves should have totally no religious entity at all. Sure, leave freedom to the students for their own religions, but don't exercise any religions as a teaching institution. That's the way it should be IMO; give them a 'neutral' education, where you give them room to make up their own mind and act accordingly...I'll second that.

[Tane Angle]

It would seem that government shouldn't say "Believe this" or "Don't believe this," it just shouldn't say at all, no? Teach history of religions, yes, as that is humanities history, but teach them equally, and don't say one is right or wrong. No?

[Yard Ape]

It would seem that government shouldn't say "Believe this" or "Don't believe this," it just shouldn't say at all, no? Teach history of religions, yes, as that is humanities history, but teach them equally, and don't say one is right or wrong. No?I'll second this too.

[Ratamacue]

It would seem that government shouldn't say "Believe this" or "Don't believe this," it just shouldn't say at all, no? Teach history of religions, yes, as that is humanities history, but teach them equally, and don't say one is right or wrong. No?

That's EXACTLY what I've been saying. At that's how all the schools I've gone to have operated. The only case that I've encountered a problem as such was when a teacher was putting "Good Job!" and whatnot stickers on tests if you got a high score (this was in 5th grade I believe). Well, my friend got his paper back, which had a sticker on it saying "Good Job!" The sticker had an illustration of a cross on it. My friend is a Jew who takes his faith pretty seriously. He and his parents were NOT happy.

[Tane Angle]

You're the pointman on this one, Ratamacue. ;)

Agreeing or not, pretty decent conversation here guys. No verbal fist fights yet?

[TRACER_BULLET]

Its seems people tend to forget public schools are for the MASSES.

I feel like most of you do... that a child should never be put in a situation where they are punished for expressing how the feel about their religion. But you don't want a situation where religion is pushed on the students. Much like Tane said you can teach children about all religions in a Humanities type of course.

If you want your children to attend a school were Christian (for example) beliefs are part of the curriculum then send them to one of the many private religious schools that exist.

edited to fix spelling & such

[Ratamacue]

You're the pointman on this one, Ratamacue. ;)

Agreeing or not, pretty decent conversation here guys. No verbal fist fights yet?

I could probably start one, if you like. ;)

[Undo]

Keep your filthy religion away from me and my government. Let me remind those of you that have forgotten that the phrase, "under god" was added by that scumbag McCarthy to seperate "honest, god fearing Americans" from those "godless communists". Total BS. I hope he rots in hell for the horrors that he wrought on the populace of the US.

By the way, most of the founding fathers, although they were "judeo-christian," were diasts (sp?). They believed in the private and circumspective practice of religion.

Don't get me started about this "faith-based initiative" crap.

[Fox2]

If we are going to talk about Jeudo-Christian values on which most of North America was founded, perhaps we should also remember some of the “values” that were once seen to fit in this list. Things like Anglo-Saxon supremacy, the acceptability of slavery, war time internment camps, superiority of the male *** (including voting rights), etc. A lot of times it was religion that was used to support these things. It was educated, intelligent and/or victimised people that realised injustices were being done, and it was educated, intelligent and/or victimised people that lead movements to fix things.

Indeed, all of those things you state were infact done by those who were religious. But I'd challenge you to find me where exactly in the values themselves one of those is supported. You must remember there is big difference between what the values are, and what people do with them or do "in their name."


As for the religion in school discussion; I agree, the school should not force anything on its students. The students should be free to choose what they believe. But unfortunately, as much as I would hope that was the case, it is definitely not.

[SeanR]

Eucharistic Minister for my Catholic Church. woot