REQ: Israelis/US member`s posts admiting their fault in killing civilians

[chas]

I was reading the CLOSED thread about the pali girl killed by the IDF (not to mention the baby a few weeks ago) and with only the title I knew the first posts were going to say either:

A) We didnt do it. It was the palis.

B) I think they probabily were killed by th explosives the terrorists were transporting.

C) If the palis didnt do what they do, we wouldnt have to fight back, so all what happens afterwards is their fault.

Of course, always ad accusations of antisemitism against either the media or other board members.

More or less the same thing happens with any other members when it comes to the military actios of his country. Do you think its mature to discuss this way and expect people to believe your country never does bull****, never tortures, ... and when they do, well: its the arabs fault, they started it!!

Same thing goes to everyone: turks about armenian genocide, spain, portugal, belgium about their african and american colonies...

Of course Im not expectig people to show me posts were people finally admit their armies' fault (title is ironic), but I always get so pissed when I see this, I wanted to put my opinion on the board to see if anyone else cares.

Ma 2 cents, biatch!!

[Javehn]

Cool .

Now give me your number and lets have Secks .

[Superking]

Sorry Norway for the occupation, and the Skåningar (Scones) for the bloody counter-insugency campaign.

Never again....

[kosse]

I think it's time for the swedes to admit their mistakes and start paying compensations to us for their cruel occupation of our lands!!

[Moledet]

Why would we admit something that we didn't do? The IDF didn't admit shooting a rocket at that house, so we don't see any reason to say otherwise.

[DeepSpace]

IBTL

Worthless thread.

[signatory]

god damn I didn't know saunas came with internet these days.
Is that WiMax you're using ?


To be serious tho, unless you haven't noticed.. there's a propaganda war going on at the same time as military (or political) intervention and accepting guilt BEFORE a investigation has concluded what happened, that can lead to long-term damages.

There has been incidents when fabricated news has been used to rally hostile support. I think most people here adopt a 'wait and see' attitude, it clearly doesn't mean they support any loss of innocent lives.

[Superking]

kosse, there is a reason i did not mention the finns.....i just dont like you and you wont get any cash!! ;)

Dont forget about the terrible genocidal campaign against our caribou herding native population in which their number went from 6 billion to 113.

And the warcriminals that that through occupied territory snook across the pacified Öresund (Earsound) to attack our peacefull cousins...the danes.

What´s WRONG WITH US!!!

Edit: Allmost forgot about the imperialistc mandate to go too Congo to kill people armed with spears and tears using the infamous warcrime TUNNAN (The Tuna).

[IDF-Godzilla]

I was reading the CLOSED thread about the pali girl killed by the IDF (not to mention the baby a few weeks ago) and with only the title I knew the first posts were going to say either:

A) We didnt do it. It was the palis.

B) I think they probabily were killed by th explosives the terrorists were transporting.

C) If the palis didnt do what they do, we wouldnt have to fight back, so all what happens afterwards is their fault.

Of course, always ad accusations of antisemitism against either the media or other board members.

More or less the same thing happens with any other members when it comes to the military actios of his country. Do you think its mature to discuss this way and expect people to believe your country never does bull****, never tortures, ... and when they do, well: its the arabs fault, they started it!!

Same thing goes to everyone: turks about armenian genocide, spain, portugal, belgium about their african and american colonies...

Of course Im not expectig people to show me posts were people finally admit their armies' fault (title is ironic), but I always get so pissed when I see this, I wanted to put my opinion on the board to see if anyone else cares.

Ma 2 cents, biatch!!
Excuse me for asking this but, what is your thought about the Qass'am rockets?
What is your side about blowing off bus's and falafel stands, malls, market places, kidnaping inocent civilians and murdering them in cold blood?
What did that 19 year old kid did to thouse "inocent palestinians" who kidnaped him and killed him in Ramalah?
Sure, every time Israelis respond, the whole world needs to stand up and shout END THE SUFFERING!!!
But, we are at war, and this is what happens when you go to war against terrorists, civilians and inocent people die.
Better open your eyes becouse the third big one is already started.

The Palestinians are like the neighbors dog that just won't shut up when you are walking in your own lawn, you try to go and talk with your neighbor but he wont listen to you, then you try again, and again and again...
Finaly when you decide that you can't take it anymore, you decide to put a cap in this dog's ass, you do it and then you got the whole street knoking at your door calling you a murderer and a problem maker.
Hope i got my self clear.
Ma 2 cents, biatch...

[Macabi]

I don't realy have an opinion on the Israeli Palestinian conflict. Here are my wise words.

'well, umm... they should stop shooting each other and then just do nice things...'

my 2 cents, biatch!!

p.s. Chas are you a thug-gangster?

[Luno]

Yes and I demand that al Portuguese troops leave Madeira today!!Madeira to the madierian prople ;-)

[annihilation]

Excuse me for asking this but, what is your thought about the Qass'am rockets?
What is your side about blowing off bus's and falafel stands, malls, market places, kidnaping inocent civilians and murdering them in cold blood?
What did that 19 year old kid did to thouse "inocent palestinians" who kidnaped him and killed him in Ramalah?
Sure, every time Israelis respond, the whole world needs to stand up and shout END THE SUFFERING!!!
But, we are at war, and this is what happens when you go to war against terrorists, civilians and inocent people die.


The world doesn't care because they are complacent with the attacks. But god forbid if the US or Israel return fire in a similiar fashion.

Its almost like organized crime, if they kill someone , it gets reported in the newspaper and there is very little outrage. A cop shoots at someone running away from him and its all over the evening news, special meetings are setup to discuss the issue and town hall meetings fill up. I guess it might have to do with the fact some sides are willing to listen, take the BS, and possible change while others have no hope at all.

[achilles]

[quote]Israel has, in effect, besieged the entire Gaza Strip—increasing the misery of the wretched 1.4m people who live there. The operation is doing nobody any good. Of course, it would be sensible if the Palestinians handed back the corporal. Of course, the Israelis should not have overreacted in the way they have. And of course, all this sets back the prospect of ever-elusive peace that bit further.
The disproportionality is plain. Last month, according to an Israeli human-rights organisation, Btselem, Israeli troops killed 42 Palestinians, 24 of them civilian bystanders, not counting a family of seven killed in a beach explosion that Palestinians think was caused by an Israeli shell. In the same period, the Palestinians have killed two Israeli soldiers and an Israeli settler. Israel makes much of the fact that since its troops evacuated the Gaza Strip nearly a year ago, Palestinians have continued to fire home-made rockets into southern Israel; this week one hit a school car park in an Israeli town six miles (ten kilometres) north of Gaza. These crude missiles have killed eight Israelis in the past five years. That does not compare with the casualties habitually suffered by Palestinian civilians when Israel assassinates its opponents from the air.


In Palestinian eyes, Israel's attitude to the issue of prisoners is no less disproportional. The kidnapped corporal is the Palestinians' sole captive. Palestinians point out that some 8,200 of their militants are in Israeli jails; no doubt they are far better protected than Corporal Shalit, but 800 of them are held without charge. Some have committed vile crimes against civilians; others, the Palestinians stress, have fought Israeli soldiers occupying Palestinian territories.

Thinking ahead
Israel upped the ante last week by arresting eight ministers of the Palestinians' Hamas government, plus some 60 officials. This was a mistake, bolstering the impression that Israel seeks to destroy the Palestinians' recently elected government. Instead of trying to coax the Palestinians out of their hole to give back the corporal, it has shoved them more tightly into it. No one, it seems, has anyone to talk to.

For sure, Hamas has been stupid and malevolent. It has lamentably failed to understand Israel's sensitivities over past efforts to retrieve captives from Arab hands. Though groping towards an implicit recognition of Israel, Hamas's leaders have talked too ambiguously. Their inflexibility over the corporal may be making Israelis less inclined to take Hamas seriously as an interlocutor in the longer run.

But the longer run is what matters. The latest stand-off must not provide the pretext for an indefinite impasse. It is still, in essence, a matter of nailing down where those states of Israel and Palestine should lie; even Hamas probably knows that. Once the Shalit episode is over, with luck not at the cost of the young man's life, Ehud Olmert, Israel's prime minister, must start to fulfil his promise to withdraw, in the next year or so, from most of the West Bank, though he presently refuses to consult the Palestinians. The two states should sit roughly on either side of the 1967 boundary, as broadly laid out by President Bill Clinton after the Camp David talks of 2000, at Taba a few months later, and under the Geneva Accord of 2003. The barrier now eating into Palestinian land, though likely to be the rough border, must in due course be amended (with land swaps) to give the Palestinians a deal they can stomach.

For now, the Israelis seem intent on proving there is “no Palestinian partner”. Hamas has often helped strengthen that thesis. But not in the long run. Mr Olmert, or whoever is prime minister, will one day have to negotiate with the Palestinians, whoever they choose as their leaders. There is no other way.

The full article is available to subscribers here:
http://www.economist.com/opinion/displaystory.cfm?story_id=E1_STQTNJP

[joshfox0]

i think its about time the christian board members pay me repartions for destroying and persicuting my ancestors and their religious beliefs.

also on that note sorry other english folks whose villages i raided burned or destroyed.

[WARPIG]

Why assume that the US/IDF automatically deny fault when it comes to civilian casualty?

I mean think about it.. why would the US allow embeds or any media at all in their areas of operation if they wanted to keep stuff like this under wraps? I mean, the Iraqi's managed to keep the US invasion a secret from their citizens by controlling their media. Why couldn't the US do it? Abu Graib couldn't have been made to disappear? Why would we send prisoners to Gitmo right under the media microscope when we can just as easily hold and interrogate terrorists anywhere in the world? Why even keep them alive at all? Doesn't it seem stupid to assume that a nation as powerful as the US simply cannot hide its mistakes and is simply denying that they happen?

I've sort of mixed subject of civilian casualties with the subject of the US' treatment of Terrorists. But the reasoning is the same. It is both ignorant, as well as easy to simply assume that the US does not admit fault when it comes to civilian casualty. More often than not, tragic errors could have easily been made to disappear but instead is reported by US troops themselves. More money has been paid to Iraqi civians for loss of property alone than the MM will ever report.. much less the steps taken to protect civilian life. If the US is so cavilier about Iraqi civilian life, why isn't there a Lake Falluja? Why haven't we turned Ramadi into a land fill? We continually put our troops in the line of fire in order to protect civilians. Every one knows that the security issues in Iraq could very easily be fixed by US Airpower yet we put our soldiers at risk anyway.

[zad]

[quote=joshfox0]i think its about time the christian board members pay me repartions for destroying and persicuting my ancestors and their religious beliefs.
/quote]

you will have to pay us reparations first for killing our god... p-)

by the way, the last time that I checked Spain wasn´t in war with anybody, at less since Sidi-Ifni war in 1957-1958.

[joshfox0]

[quote=joshfox0]i think its about time the christian board members pay me repartions for destroying and persicuting my ancestors and their religious beliefs.
/quote]

you will have to pay us reparations first for killing our god... p-)

by the way, the last time that I checked Spain wasn´t in war with anybody, at less since Sidi-Ifni war in 1956. bwahahaha not possible i am of northern origin i was no where near your god when he was killed! **shifty eyes** wheehahahhhehhea.... also on that not i must express my sadness on your god being killed :P p-)

[Moledet]

[quote="achilles"]

The full article is available to subscribers here:
http://www.economist.com/opinion/displaystory.cfm?story_id=E1_STQTNJP
You think we care? I am full of joy that about 90 Palestinians were killed in the 13 days of Summer Rain. They fully deserve this.

In the last two years 928 Qassam rockets were fired at civilian population centers in Israel. It doesn't sound bad, ah? Let's rephrase and see how it reads when it has to do with your country: In the last two years 928 rockets were fired on civilian population centers in Greece.
I wonder how Greece would have responded to that? I'd tell you how, they would flatten the whole area that launches those rockets. On the other hand we don't do that.

It's not about how many it kills it's about how it disrupts life, if Sderot's children can't go to school because of rockets than Gaza's kids will have no schools to go to. If Sderot's residents can not work than Gaza's residents won't work inside Israel or in Gaza. If Sderot's residents do not feel safe walking out in the street than Gaza's residents won't be able to set foot in the street because they will fear assassinations.
It all has to do with how much support those rockets have, as long as there will be no harsh response and a price for every rocket the Palestinians will support firing it and the Hamas will listen to them. Now they know the exact price of firing rockets and attacking our troops, hundreds will die in a month to a two months CT campaign, tens if not hundreds of tons of weapons will be seized, tens of tunnels will be destroyed, there will be extensive damage to infrastrcture and their government will sit in jail for years.
Iron fist is the only way to deal with terrorism, negotiating with them will get us nowhere.

[Laworkerbee]

Why assume that the US/IDF automatically deny fault when it comes to civilian casualty?

I mean think about it.. why would the US allow embeds or any media at all in their areas of operation if they wanted to keep stuff like this under wraps? I mean, the Iraqi's managed to keep the US invasion a secret from their citizens by controlling their media. Why couldn't the US do it? Abu Graib couldn't have been made to disappear? Why would we send prisoners to Gitmo right under the media microscope when we can just as easily hold and interrogate terrorists anywhere in the world? Why even keep them alive at all? Doesn't it seem stupid to assume that a nation as powerful as the US simply cannot hide its mistakes and is simply denying that they happen?

I've sort of mixed subject of civilian casualties with the subject of the US' treatment of Terrorists. But the reasoning is the same. It is both ignorant, as well as easy to simply assume that the US does not admit fault when it comes to civilian casualty. More often than not, tragic errors could have easily been made to disappear but instead is reported by US troops themselves. More money has been paid to Iraqi civians for loss of property alone than the MM will ever report.. much less the steps taken to protect civilian life. If the US is so cavilier about Iraqi civilian life, why isn't there a Lake Falluja? Why haven't we turned Ramadi into a land fill? We continually put our troops in the line of fire in order to protect civilians. Every one knows that the security issues in Iraq could very easily be fixed by US Airpower yet we put our soldiers at risk anyway.

Well said!

[PILMAN]

What I find acceptable may not be acceptable in another persons eyes. Personally I think it's war and a country has to do what it has to do. There will be atrocities and if someones taking kids and shooting them and their unarmed yeah that's screwed up, arrest them and try them for the crime but I think putting the information on the news and saying "American soldiers are baby killers they killed 40 kids" only hurts the entire image of the US military and they should try to keep it low profile. Have people in our military done screwed up stuff? Yeah, but I can name several others the enemys done as well. We never questioned what happened in Nazi Germany so why now?

[Zeev]

I wonder how Greece would have responded to that? I'd tell you how, they would flatten the whole area that launches those rockets. On the other hand we don't do that.

I'm not really sure but it seems that some greek members over here had problems with jews and israel.... I'm curious to know their reasons...

we did bad things to them too?? damn.. those evil jews.. :roll:

[Clarsachier]

to put this into perspective;

Finaly when you decide that you can't take it anymore, you decide to put a cap in this dog's ass,

You think we care? I am full of joy that about 90 Palestinians were killed in the 13 days of Summer Rain. They fully deserve this.

Even though, they're mostly non combatants, women, & children.

Yet, you expect us all to sympathize with you? Your rationale, that the civs should just 'turn in all the tangos' and since they don't - they're legitimate targets sounds like it's right out of North Korea's propoganda orifice.

Zeev: I guess you expect that if you can maneuver the topic into racial grounds you can kill the topic, huh?

[Palmach]

to put this into perspective;Even though, they're mostly non combatants, women, & children.

They are not. Vast majority of the victims are members of the terrorist organizations. Number of civilian casualties in the current operation is less then 10% which is damn good for the urban fighting and in all likelyhood better then the record of the allied forces in Serbia, Iraq, and Afganistan.

[Clarsachier]

They are not. Vast majority of the victims are members of the terrorist organizations. Number of civilian casualties in the current operation is less then 10% which is damn good for the urban fighting and in all likelyhood better then the record of the allied forces in Serbia, Iraq, and Afganistan.

I'm addressing here, is the issue as to wheather we should discuss it or not.

So far as your 'proportion' of 'members of terrorist organizations' goes, Here's my opinion; hogwash. If the victim's male, and less than 70 years old he's definately a terrorist in every Israelis opinion.

Secondly, the Israelis have cut off power, destroyed power plants, caused a humanitarian catastrophe amongst the civilian population. So when they rise up and fight back, in their own backyards, you can't say their 'terrorists.' How many more do you think Israel's created in the past few days?

Look at the history of the situation ; Israel's been doing this for 40 years, the situation hasn't improved, and yet - Israel's supposed to know how to control terrorism? A completely, untenable premise.

IMO, Israel's going to have to accept something it's always refused, international mediation. Otherwise, Israel's going to loose all it's intellegencia
those who can get out will.

You wouldn't believe how many of these Israelis I meet here in So. California - maybe you know a few?

[Laworkerbee]

No power plants were destroyed Clarsachier, a power transformer station was hit.

But yes I get your drift.

[Moledet]

No power plants were destroyed Clarsachier, a power transformer station was hit.

But yes I get your drift.
And it was a mistake (bad coordinates to arty).

And well, if a civilian is standing behind a terrorist instead of staying in his home, than ofcourse he would get shot and possibly killed. What do you expect the IDF soldiers to do? To not shoot at those that shoot at them because some idiots keep standing behind them and refuse to move? Same thing about civilians that are trying to look like terrorists (like the guy with the antenta that put it over a barrel like a WW2 machine gun).

BTW, the forces have returned tonight to the Gaza strip.
http://www.ynet.co.il/PicServer2/20122005/833366/DSC_0049-(Medium)_wa.jpg
It's written "Gilad Shalit" on it.

And yeah, my brother was in south California about a year ago, they go there for a few months-years and always return because they don't feel at home there (in his words:"I don't like the American life, it's too boring. You wakeup go to work until it's dark and at the weekend you sometimes have time to party for a few hours to get away from your troubles, what's fun in that?"). Just a few days ago hundreds of immigrants came back from the US to Israel and there's a larger amount of immigrants coming to Israel than people leaving.

You can be absolutely sure that the Palestinian conflict is not what causing people to leave, it has to do more with making lots of money in the US in order to buy some of their dreams in Israel.

[Laworkerbee]

And well, if a civilian is standing behind a terrorist instead of staying in his home, than ofcourse he would get shot and possibly killed. What do you expect the IDF soldiers to do? To not shoot at those that shoot at them because some idiots keep standing behind them and refuse to move? Same thing about civilians that are trying to look like terrorists (like the guy with the antenta that put it over a barrel like a WW2 machine gun).


You mean like this? p-)

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v101/He219/notgonnadothismuchlonger/more/more/30648932.jpg

[Moledet]

You mean like this? p-)

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v101/He219/notgonnadothismuchlonger/more/more/30648932.jpg
Yes, you can also notice the humanitarian crisis in this photo, new jeans pants, clean shirts, snickers...

[Clarsachier]

No power plants were destroyed Clarsachier, a power transformer station was hit.

But yes I get your drift.

Oh no! They've gotten to you!p-)

Make that two power stations -

Israel strikes second Gaza power station-witnesses
Thu 29 Jun 2006 2:27 PM ET

GAZA, June 29 (Reuters) - An Israeli missile strike destroyed a power sub-station in southern Gaza on Thursday, cutting off electricity in the area and widening a blackout caused by earlier Israeli attacks, witnesses said.

Air strikes on Wednesday damaged Gaza's main power transformers elsewhere in the territory. Israel has launched an offensive in Gaza to force Palestinian militants to free an abducted Israeli soldier.

I dunno, Dude. Not being an engineer or anything, it seems to me that transformers are a power station. Yes! But they were terrorist transformers!!

More of my drift;

In Gaza offensive, Israel hits Western aid projects
Tue 11 Jul 2006 10:47 AM ET
By Adam Entous

BEIT HANOUN, Gaza, July 11 (Reuters) - Beit Hanoun's veteran bridge builder shrugged off his latest misfortune: the Israelis destroyed the main span into town three years ago. The European Union rebuilt it. And overnight the Israelis destroyed it again.

There's no reason to think that this 'collective punishment' crap will work any
better than it has for the last 40 years.

[Laworkerbee]

I think it's the Zionist media trying to control me

I've had a headache all day! it must be Yahoudi mind control attempts :)

[Anonymosity]

Chas I respect your attempt but you have to understand this forum is logically inhabitated by mostly Americans, and thus it's view on it's allies (such as Israel) is substantial different.

[Palmach]

I'm addressing here, is the issue as to wheather we should discuss it or not.

So far as your 'proportion' of 'members of terrorist organizations' goes, Here's my opinion; hogwash. If the victim's male, and less than 70 years old he's definately a terrorist in every Israelis opinion.

Oh, please :). I went to electronicintifada.com and looked at their stats for the victims. Every "member of the resistance" was accounted as such, males of conscription age described as "civilians" were divided 50/50. That gave about 10% civilian casualties. However, if we account for the obvious partiality of the source I may be being generous.

Secondly, the Israelis have cut off power, destroyed power plants, caused a humanitarian catastrophe amongst the civilian population. So when they rise up and fight back, in their own backyards, you can't say their 'terrorists.' How many more do you think Israel's created in the past few days?

Ok... Firstly, Israel did not show up in Gaza out of the blue: palestinian terrorist groups (all allied with the party in power, the presidency, and foreign powers) have been shelling Israli towns for months, and I won't even mention the kidnapping. If anyone is fighting back it is Israel.

Secondly, attacks on the infrastructure is a perfectly accepted way of pressuring a hostile government: NATO, EU, and the US used exact same tactics in Serbia. Civilian installations have been hit over and over in order to force the government to comply with certain political demands. Same thing is happening here.

Finally, there is no "humanitarian catastrophe" in Gaza. There are adequet supplies of food and water, Israel continues to supply electricity which reachs all areas of Gaza at least for several hours a day. Is it pleasent? No! Is it Darfur? Hell, no!

Look at the history of the situation ; Israel's been doing this for 40 years, the situation hasn't improved, and yet - Israel's supposed to know how to control terrorism? A completely, untenable premise.

For most of these 40 years the territories have been the most peaceful place around. Gaza was controled by 2 companies of MAGAV for decades.

It is the Oslo that place a terrorist regime in control of the palestinian government and that cnsequences are in plain sight.

IMO, Israel's going to have to accept something it's always refused, international mediation. Otherwise, Israel's going to loose all it's intellegencia
those who can get out will.

You wouldn't believe how many of these Israelis I meet here in So. California - maybe you know a few?

People are moving to the US for the same reason they move from Germany or GB - for economic opportunities. After all a country went through a 5 year long recession.

Internation mediation? How is gonna mediate - people like you? No thank you :)

[Zeev]

Zeev: I guess you expect that if you can maneuver the topic into racial grounds you can kill the topic, huh?

not at all, you re wrong, I was just trying to understand the POV of some greek members,and their reasons to always criticize jews and israel,not more...

[Zeev]

You can be absolutely sure that the Palestinian conflict is not what causing people to leave, it has to do more with making lots of money in the US in order to buy some of their dreams in Israel.

True, life in israel is hard on the economic point of vue, less than in many other contries of course but it ain't easy for many israelis.. thats explain why some people leave.. in US or somewhere else..

[Clarsachier]

I'm not going to argue about this particular excursion at this point. But I have a question, is Shalit a dual national or a French citizen?

[Zeev]

I'm not going to argue about this particular excursion at this point. But I have a question, is Shalit a dual national or a French citizen?

a dual national, like I am.. that explain the french foreign office ingerance in this case.. but whats the point of this question?

[Clarsachier]

a dual national, like I am.. that explain the french foreign office ingerance in this case.. but whats the point of this question?

Because I was unable to obtain this info elsewhere. LsFigero said he was French. I assumed dual nationality but was curious. Thank You.

[Clarsachier]

Japan urges 'rational action' from Israel in Mideast crisis

(They have such a way with words!!!)

http://news.yahoo.com/s/afp/20060712/wl_asia_afp/mideastunrestisrael_060712161200;_ylt=As5F8rwGkSdIfLozqox4Z.6s0NUE;_ylu=X3oDMTA2Z2szazkxBHNlYwN0bQ--

During talks with Olmert, Koizumi announced Japan's initiative to create a four-party framework between Japan, Israel, the Palestinians and Jordan to jointly develop Jordan Valley areas.

Koizumi also said Tokyo would offer two million dollars to the World Bank for a feasibility study on the possible construction of a canal between the Dead Sea and the Red Sea.

I' know that it's as fashionable amongst the far rightwingers as Gucci underwear, to defend jingoistic policy through nihlistic, negative rhetoric toward the possibility of peace in the ME.'

But the involvement of a country like Japan who have no current alignmentwith either side, and who's promoting economic development with hard money is a positive event with great potential for stabilizing the region.

[UZI4U]

Japan urges 'rational action' from Israel in Mideast crisis
(They have such a way with words!!!)



The sentence 'rational action' can be interpreted in many ways (pending on your own opinions and beliefs).

All that can be learned from this is that the Japanese are being very diplomatic.