Weapons Ban on China? The EU says no longer.

[Celareon]

I wanted to initiate a conversation about the EU's intention to lift the arms embargo it has had on china since the Tiananmen Square massacre in 1989.
The US obviously vehemently opposes any lift of the ban presumably because of the fact that any arms sales to china now could be used by china on US forces protecting Taiwan, if it came down to that.
Not to be inflammatory, but the French government is spearheading efforts to get the ban lifted, also presumably so that its own Weapons firms would be saved from another year of falling fortunes, and also France and...Some other European regimes see the EU and China together as a counterbalance to US domination and as a way to effectively say "no" to US pressure.

I personally think the arms embargo should stay in place and that we(the west) shouldn’t give a dictatorship/military junta/Communist gov't more weapons.
China's human rights offences have been increasing in the past year not subsiding and i seriously believe that it would in the end the decision to remove the ban would destroy the already precarious trans-Atlantic relationship.

The information contained herin was taken from BBC News:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/3564527.stm

[Romulus]

Some other European regimes see the EU and China together as a counterbalance to US domination and as a way to effectively say "no" to US pressure.

They vote the same way in the UN anyhow. EU and China agree in the UN about 97% of the time. So why would it matter now?

[scm77]

The EU just wants to be able to aid China so they can become allies and conquer the west. Now if you'll excuse me I need to find my tinfoil hat so the government can't spy on me. ;)

[StukaJr]

China is one of the top exporters of weapons - at least has been before the embargo - they manufacture and design enough weapon systems to rely on their own than the west. Take Type-97 tank or their new bull-pup assault rifles (forgot the name).

China dominates the market with cheapely produced competetive goods - they would take a huge chunk out of US's military trade... I'm sure that's the same reason why russia would oppose lifting the embargo...

My 2 cents

[AK-Lover]

I think this ban should be lifted so that there can fianlly be a balance against what I view as US international "bullying". :D

[Operation Ivy]

:roll:

[AK-Lover]

Sorry buddy, just my view. :D :hug:

[Celareon]

Stuka, i agree that China's arsenal is...large but it remains to be seen as to what quality and what level of technology they base their weapons systems on.

Guys, imagine for a second that instead of type-## chinese tanks or some generic bullpup design the chinese had:
1.leclerc's and leopard 2's
2.AUG's, FAMAS and G36's
3.Eurocopters
4.French-german-italian destroyers/missle frigates
5.Advanced Missle and anti-missle technology
6.Mirages, grippens (sp?), and tornados.

1-million+ man army plus Western weapons tech=Death. :D

[Ratamacue]

1-million+ man army plus Western weapons tech=Death.

1,000,000-man Army + West Weapons Tech - Training = Nothing

[von_Moo142]

I quote here from the websiteof the economic and commercial counselor's office of Chinas embassy in the USA: http://www.chinacommercial.org/

It's only two paragraphs, and is worth a read.


As the largest developing country and the largest industrialized nation in the world, China and the United States are getting increasingly interdependent and complementary in the field of trade and economic cooperation. A healthy and stable bilateral trade and economic relationship between China and U.S. will not only benefit the people of the two nations, but also promote the prosperity and stability of the world economy.

Since China established diplomatic relations with the United States in 1979, bilateral trade and economic cooperation have become one of the most important foundations and driving forces of the bilateral relations. According to the statistics released by Chinese Custom, the volume of China-U.S. bilateral trade exceeded USD74.4 billion in 2000 with a significant jump of 21.2% compared with the previous year. Meanwhile, the total contractual U.S. investment in China reached USD63.41 billion by the end of May 2001.

Futhermore, the US census bureau reports that US exports to China in 2003 were valued at 28418.5 million USD, whilst imports were valued at 152379.1 million USD.

Link: http://www.census.gov/foreign-trade/balance/c5700.html

Thats a lot of trade. It would lead me into making a statement along the lines of this: The USA and China are firm economic allies.

You may disagree, of course, but the figures are hard to ignore.

This is why, no matter how many EP-3 incidents there are or how ever much China rattles sabres and endulges in battleship diplomacy over Taiwan, I doubt there will be any military confrontaion between China and the US anytime soon.

I think that given that this volume of trade exists anyway, any military trade with China would be insignificant.

[xjym2002]

The US obviously vehemently opposes any lift of the ban presumably because of the fact that any arms sales to china now could be used by china on US forces protecting Taiwan, if it came down to that.

US could try to sell arms along with Boeings to China. US did it in the early 80's. Did China ever use BlackHawk helis against US forces?
As long as the truce between mainland and Taiwan continues, US could gain a lot by selling weapons to both sides.


China's human rights offences have been increasing in the past year not subsiding and i seriously believe that it would in the end the decision to remove the ban would destroy the already precarious trans-Atlantic relationship.

Being a citizen of China, I have the opposite feeling as yours. The unfolded cases of human rights offences may increase, but it can also be seen as a progress compared with the last few decades. The control from government continuously loosened. I know they won't withdraw too much because they don't afford to, but the trend is clear.

As I said before, please give China time, friendly communication instead of hostile attitude helps China to reform.

[Celareon]

Ratamacue, i knew someone would catch me on that :) , but as you said given the proper training Chinese troops manning those weapons systems could give them major advantages they would not have if the ban remained in place.

xjym2002, i realize that being a citizen of China puts you in a defensive position, but i was only relaying facts that i gathered from the BBC article, i would have to do some independent research myself to look into china's "increasing" human rights violations, then again just look at Guantanamo bay :roll:

The continuing relaxation of control over people’s lives in China will continue hopefully and the more economic freedom people have the more they will demand personal liberties as well.

[Lobo]

The US obviously vehemently opposes any lift of the ban presumably because of the fact that any arms sales to china now could be used by china on US forces protecting Taiwan, if it came down to that.

Don't worry. France will inmediately sell weapons to Taiwan too. :roll: They have always had a very simple approach to weapon's trade: You pay, you get it.

[HELEX]

This is nothing about Rifles, Tanks, Planes or other basic things but about real Hightech like satelite, sonar and Radar systems.
But I dont think that is areally good idea....