Polish Prime Minister resigns

[fantassin]

Just heard it on the radio; will look for some more infos now...

There it is from the BBC:

Polish prime minister to resign

Polish Prime Minister Leszek Miller has said he will resign on 2 May - the day after Poland joins the EU.

The announcement followed growing pressure on Mr Miller to step down amid a major split in his party.

Up to 30 leading MPs defected from the Democratic Left Alliance to form a rival left-wing party, urging Mr Miller to go.

The move follows deep dissatisfaction within the party about its declining popularity, currently less than 10%.

Mr Miller announced his decision after meeting Polish President Aleksander Kwasniewsky. In the space of two-and-a-half years the party lost 4.5 million voters

Parliament speaker and leading rebel Marek Borowski said the MPs had decided to split because "it was not possible to reform the party" and win back voters ahead of next year's elections.

"In the space of two-and-a-half years the party lost 4.5 million voters," he told a news conference.

But any government overhaul should not disturb Poland's smooth accession to the EU, he added.

EU requirements

High unemployment, a malfunctioning health care system and a string of high profile corruption scandals are seen as the main causes of his unpopularity.

Budget cuts introduced ahead of the country's EU membership, aimed at bringing its economy into line with EU requirements, have contributed to the problems.

Mr Miller, who stepped down as the leader of his party last month, earlier made it clear that he would like to stay on until after Poland joins the EU on 1 May.

His resignation could trigger early parliamentary elections.

However, analysts say the government could probably muster enough votes in parliament to avoid this.

[fdt]

Just heard it on the radio; will look for some more infos now...AFAIK he was in a (then communist) military looooong ago, and he was low rank soldier (corporal...?). So it's not very much military related piece of news, especially that it had nothing to do with Polish troops presence in Iraq :) .

[tony6]

It was pretty obvious from some time now.
The guy is going to resign on 2nd may (day after we join EU).

[perdurabo]

why may2 why not now? :(
i remember when he criticized last gov of mrBuzek (right wing party AWS now it dont exist) he said "the man is recognited not by his start but how he ends..." rofl rofl

[Seoulstriker]

miller to jest kurwa pierdolony. :)

damn commies. :| is the flat tax still going into effect next year?

[fdt]

miller to jest kurwa pierdolony. :)
Geeee, that's what I call the good one... rofl

[Brzeczyszczykiewicz]

Just heard it on the radio; will look for some more infos now...AFAIK he was in a (then communist) military looooong ago, and he was low rank soldier (corporal...?). So it's not very much military related piece of news, especially that it had nothing to do with Polish troops presence in Iraq :) .

No, he served on a submarine (one of the Foxtrots: Dzik or Wilk). I've heard it on Polish TV

[SeanAshi]

Will this effect Polish troops in Iraq?

[fdt]

Just heard it on the radio; will look for some more infos now...AFAIK he was in a (then communist) military looooong ago, and he was low rank soldier (corporal...?). So it's not very much military related piece of news, especially that it had nothing to do with Polish troops presence in Iraq :) .

No, he served on a submarine (one of the Foxtrots: Dzik or Wilk). I've heard it on Polish TVRight. For some strange reasons he was relieved of service after few months on board, as the full term was then 2 or 3 years...

[perdurabo]

miller to jest kurwa pierdolony. :)

damn commies. :| is the flat tax still going into effect next year?
seoul please i dont like commies too but dont curse so bad :/
in reality we have flat tax! :)
we have VAT 22%
PIT with is from personal incomes tax and it have 19% 3x% and 5x% tax rates (don't remember higer than basic:/)
but we have also CIT tax witch is from company income and is 19% :D so if you ern more than basic pit tax you just make one man company out of your self and pay only 19% tax :D
but if PO (Civil Platform conserwative-liberal they have little more than 24-26% of votes) will win next elections we will have only 15% for all taxes they propose to cut social aids (it takes more than 2% of GDP!!) and make liberal laws in economics .... but if Samoobrona (Selfdefence-it's leftist party with Lepper as leader) win we all be screwed they propose nationalisation of companies no tax for poor ppl and 2,5% tax not from income but from company sales and also much higher tax for richer ppl they also want to give all "poor" ppl 300$ and also make balanced budget also country growth uder their rule will be 6-9%(it their dreams stupid ****s) and exporters will be in prosperity blablabla thier wet dreams are realy stupid but they have 20% of votes and even more:/

[tony6]

Will this effect Polish troops in Iraq?
No-just some interior business of his party. They will change the PM and that's it.

[fdt]

Will this effect Polish troops in Iraq?Yeah... someone else will be visiting them in Camp Babylon... :lol:

This resignation was caused by internal problems he had in his own party and parliament... Don't think it might trigger any withdrawal, as all the major parties agree on the Poland's participation in Iraq mission.

[perdurabo]

Will this effect Polish troops in Iraq?
duno but moust of ppl are aginst and USA gov. dosent help to make it better, you know winning of NourUSA in this contest for new iraq army equipment giving us only 16mln$ of FMF not moving bases to poland makes ppl little angry all ppl here think "if our soldiers are there anr risk their lives for usa and we have to pay lots of money for that mission usa should do something for us" and we have a recesion (well now its going better recession is at its end or it will go bigger ....) so lots of ppl are angry and give support to stupid radical pratys and politics like Lepper or Giertych (first one is leftist second one is christian-nazi type) so if samoobrona and lepper wins elections we say godbye iraq (and also EU say us goodbye because of sales tax -its forbidden in EU, and other economical ideas from Lepper:/) i dont know about PO if they win prabably they try to make deal with USA (give us XXX and we stay)

[Herrmannek]

woot

[mack pl]

Znowu sie Remov przypierdoli ze prowadzimy głupią rozmowe o polskiej polityce wewnętrznej i nikogo to nie obchodzi :| BTW how do you think,who will be next prime minister??Oleksy or Cimoszewicz???Regards :)

[wholagun]

I hate Lepper, oh man do i ever hate him. Im actually gonna vote in the next election from Canada so Lepper doesn't get into power.. You guys should vote too, and get your friends to vote next election so that we don't get Leeper in power. I really want PO to win, but I also want PO to have a greater majority in parliament sinc it'll be easier to muster up majority with PiS.
Yeah US is losing Polish political support real fast. There are very little economic and political benifts in being friends with the US right now, the EU big players don't like us for that reason and personally I wanted to be closer to Gemany in the first place (they are our neighbour and richest country ) US is too far away and doesn't really need us in the whole scheme of things. The F16 invests are off to a slow start and Poles didn't get visa free access to the US, where as EU is giving us 70 billion Euros to development and in a few year all labour markets are open to us. I support troops in Iraq but at the same time I don't want to be Americas bitch. Someone on another forum said it best, he said "Poland will get a kick in the ass from the EU and a kick in the balls from the US and thats how our foriegn policy will end up". This is exaclty what will happen.

One thing I don't like about Rokita is his hardline stance on Nice treaty, I like the double majority voting system and I want to keep it. Once the european countries compromise it should be a bit fairer sytem of voting IMO.

[Seoulstriker]

miller to jest kurwa pierdolony. :)

damn commies. :| is the flat tax still going into effect next year?
seoul please i dont like commies too but dont curse so bad :/
in reality we have flat tax! :)
we have VAT 22%
PIT with is from personal incomes tax and it have 19% 3x% and 5x% tax rates (don't remember higer than basic:/)
but we have also CIT tax witch is from company income and is 19% :D so if you ern more than basic pit tax you just make one man company out of your self and pay only 19% tax :D
but if PO (Civil Platform conserwative-liberal they have little more than 24-26% of votes) will win next elections we will have only 15% for all taxes they propose to cut social aids (it takes more than 2% of GDP!!) and make liberal laws in economics .... but if Samoobrona (Selfdefence-it's leftist party with Lepper as leader) win we all be screwed they propose nationalisation of companies no tax for poor ppl and 2,5% tax not from income but from company sales and also much higher tax for richer ppl they also want to give all "poor" ppl 300$ and also make balanced budget also country growth uder their rule will be 6-9%(it their dreams stupid f***) and exporters will be in prosperity blablabla thier wet dreams are realy stupid but they have 20% of votes and even more:/

nationalisation of companies?? :(

I was really excited a couple of years ago when i heard about the tax reforms going into place, especially the flat-tax. :) i just hope poland can get its economy on track. :hug:

i don't know much about polish politics though... :oops:

[Catch22]

Don't worry Seoul - I reckon you allready have nessecary basics - "k...wa" for long time proved to be one of the best (eg. most expressive) curses in the world ;) And since you got even ability to produce some simple combination saying: "k...a p...ny" then you're following the right path. I'm preety serious here - that little "K- word" proved to be the best curse in the languages known to man - no "f...k" can compare...
(ask me and I'll show you how to make a cute 14-elements combo including some worst/best swearing phrases in polish).

About the politics - at least Miller decided to cut this ****... Its no use to comment it here. It wont inflict the presence of Polish troops in the world - they're formally under president's command not PM.

[Herrmannek]

It wont inflict the presence of Polish troops in the world - they're formally under president's command not PM.
President is "next to go" :)

[littlefrench]

Aznar and now the polish


I thank Mr Bush and his lies to help us to build a powerfull Europe

[Troll]

Hej! Czy ktoś zna podobne forum po polsku? Będę bardzo wdzięczny za pomoc!

[littlefrench]

lol, je suis censé comprendre quoi là, l'ami ?

[volfram]

Aznar and now the polish


I thank Mr Bush and his lies to help us to build a powerfull Europe
Our prime minister resigns had nothing to doi with our foreign policy and our relation with u.s.a. wont change.

[Herrmannek]

Aznar and now the polish


I thank Mr Bush and his lies to help us to build a powerfull Europe
Our prime minister resigns had nothing to doi with our foreign policy and our relation with u.s.a. wont change.

Until next ellections with can be disasterous, but then our involvment or lack of it wouldn't be problem anymore....

[littlefrench]

Aznar and now the polish


I thank Mr Bush and his lies to help us to build a powerfull Europe
Our prime minister resigns had nothing to doi with our foreign policy and our relation with u.s.a. wont change.

your prime minister has recognized that mr Bush had lied him, isn't it ?

You've just one politic : follow the greats (russia and now usa) and shut up

[mack pl]

Aznar and now the polish


I thank Mr Bush and his lies to help us to build a powerfull Europe
Our prime minister resigns had nothing to doi with our foreign policy and our relation with u.s.a. wont change.

your prime minister has recognized that mr Bush had lied him, isn't it ?

You've just one politic : follow the greats (russia and now usa) and shut upMaybe you should shut the **** up boy ;)

[littlefrench]

That's your own problem, the Polish. You are alone in Europe.

[Herrmannek]

That's your own problem, the Polish. You are alone in Europe.

We don't see problem in being alone...esspecilay our alternative is having your company :) ...

[HELEX]

I dont think they are alone, they are welcome in europe. But they chose the uneuropean side in the Iraq issue and this side was proven wrong. They found out that Bush lied.

More interesting are the british, they will not permit they were wrong. So it will take a bit more time.... :roll:

[Herrmannek]

I dont think they are alone, they are welcome in europe. But they chose the uneuropean side in the Iraq issue and this side was proven wrong. They found out that Bush lied.

More interesting are the british, they will not permit they were wrong. So it will take a bit more time.... :roll:

We haven't admited we were wrong...We've only admited that one of the reasons for joinig coalition wasn't checked enough...

[HELEX]

We haven't admited we were wrong...

Did I say that? Where? ;)

[Herrmannek]

We haven't admited we were wrong...

Did I say that? Where? ;)

You said we "were proven wrong"...to be proven wrong we must admit being wrong :)

[wholagun]

well im come out and admit that were were wrong in fighting at the start, but I would like to think and hope that we went into Iraq to stabilize Iraq and not cause US wanted us to go in exchage for $$ which we have yet to see.

[Pégase]

You said we "were proven wrong"...to be proven wrong we must admit being wrong :)

do you know why the spokesman of the Polish ministry of the Defence, colonel Eugeniusz Mleczak, has been sacked ?

[Herrmannek]

You said we "were proven wrong"...to be proven wrong we must admit being wrong :)

do you know why the spokesman of the Polish ministry of the Defence, colonel Eugeniusz Mleczak, has been sacked ?

I don't, even don't remmber name. Do yuo care to explain?

[wholagun]

was it over the Ronald Missiles?

[wholagun]

Kwasniewski said we were mislead and went into Iraq under false pretenses. I don't know about you guys but thats pretty obvious that we are admitting to being wrong into going into Iraq.
Pride aside, (well actually I don't care cause foreign policy should be Poland last concern) I admit that Poland was wrong in going to Iraq at first, now I support the decision to stay. But I was not for the war at all.

[Herrmannek]

was it over the Ronald Missiles?
I thought te same.....AAAaaaa now I understand the joke rofl ... Yes we were proven wrong many times on that and many other ocassions, but in case of our involvment in Iraq we weren't proven wrong yet....

[Herrmannek]

Kwasniewski said we were mislead and went into Iraq under false pretenses. I don't know about you guys but thats pretty obvious that we are admitting to being wrong into going into Iraq.
Pride aside, (well actually I don't care cause foreign policy should be Poland last concern) I admit that Poland was wrong in going to Iraq at first, now I support the decision to stay. But I was not for the war at all.

Kwasniewski later said that man(some French) he was talking with missunderstood him or sense of his(Kwasnieski's) words was lost in translation :)

[wholagun]

Our involvment in Iraq was pure $$$$$ and we have yet to seed any big $$$$. on the other hand EU is paying 70 billion Euros of which we will see and which have have seen abit already.

In time we will come to favour Europe as our main ally, not US.

[tony6]

I quess we all have to admit that there were no WMD in Iraq.
Was it the wrong decission to get involved from the beggining?
I may have some doubts but still I think it was right thing to do.
One thing is sure-we can not withdraw now!

[Pégase]

was it over the Ronald Missiles?
I thought te same.....AAAaaaa now I understand the joke rofl ... Yes we were proven wrong many times on that and many other ocassions, but in case of our involvment in Iraq we weren't proven wrong yet....

I can tell you that in France, it hasn't been taken as a joke at all

[Herrmannek]

Our involvment in Iraq was pure $$$$$ and we have yet to seed any big $$$$. on the other hand EU is paying 70 billion Euros of which we will see and which have have seen abit already.

In time we will come to favour Europe as our main ally, not US.

You are too hurrra optimistic...Don't believe in anything people say(including me), and don't lay hope in UE, esspecialy it becames more political than buisness animal. To be honest: I **** on politicaly united europe because it will represent interests of strongest(France and Germany) and rarely Poland's , small countrys can live with it, but Poland is to big to live from turism ....

[Herrmannek]

Hej! Czy ktoś zna podobne forum po polsku? Będę bardzo wdzięczny za pomoc!
BTW I don't know any polish forum with simmiliar interst like this :(

[perdurabo]

Our involvment in Iraq was pure $$$$$ and we have yet to seed any big $$$$. on the other hand EU is paying 70 billion Euros of which we will see and which have have seen abit already.

In time we will come to favour Europe as our main ally, not US.

wholagun easy easy men! there is lots of things not only money... why we have to choose EU or US? why UK isn't choosing? why Dutch can support USA? and we can't? ...
Its franchies talk they are mad at us because we have our own word we have own path and we won't obbey (remember Chirac: "Poland lost its time to be quiet"??) I remember Shroeder on germans from lost land comunity meeting saying that kicking germans out of Prussia and Silesia was bad and we do something with that... don't be naive thinking that EU is hollygrall.

[perdurabo]

was it over the Ronald Missiles?
I thought te same.....AAAaaaa now I understand the joke rofl ... Yes we were proven wrong many times on that and many other ocassions, but in case of our involvment in Iraq we weren't proven wrong yet....

I can tell you that in France, it hasn't been taken as a joke at all
Belive me nor here, but USA did identical mistake! and you didn't react so hard! i understand poland has to sit quiet and obbey orders from Paris/Berlin NO WAY TAVARISHCH!!

[wholagun]

Our involvment in Iraq was pure $$$$$ and we have yet to seed any big $$$$. on the other hand EU is paying 70 billion Euros of which we will see and which have have seen abit already.

In time we will come to favour Europe as our main ally, not US.

You are too hurrra optimistic...Don't believe in anything people say(including me), and don't lay hope in UE, esspecialy it becames more political than buisness animal. To be honest: I **** on politicaly united europe because it will represent interests of strongest(France and Germany) and rarely Poland's , small countrys can live with it, but Poland is to big to live from turism ....

Well im not as conservative as you guys are, no. Im more moderate when it comes to politics. I belive that we can't take take take and not give anything. You can't bite the hand that feeds you.

Germany is our neighbour, right next to us, we should have better relationship with the Germans then the Americans since they are not even on our continent.

Don't lay hope in EU? Where else can we lay hope in if not the EU. Look at Ireland, they took EU money and now 48 0000 GDP per capta. Look at Spain 22 000 GDP per capta and 5th economy, pretty good for a country thats been in the EU for 30 some odd years. EU will make our laws much better and easier to understand and allow us (well im in Canada) you guys to work in a few years, US hasn't take down the visa's for Poles.

We cannot be mad at Frace, France is the biggest investor in Poland 12 Billion Euros invested thus far. EU is set to invest 70 billion and build our highways and infastructure. Give it time, just be patient. With comprrimise on the voting, the voting system will be fairer for everyone, so we can't say that our interests will resprestented.

I like the EU because we can become the richhest country in the region and have the best economy and that is good for everyone in Poland and then we can get more say in our foreign policy and have more influence in internatinal politics. + have better army, navy and air force. :D

[wholagun]

EU will provide for our security we have nothign to worry about anymore, you really think that germany and france and Britain will set by and watch us get messed up again. If you the European nations want to be powerful, there is nothign more embarrasing then seeing Poland get invaded and have them sit by and do nothing. They would look so bad and would have to help us. this is in fact not even an issue any more as the constitution has a clause simular to one as NATO where all have to help if one is attacked.

[perdurabo]

look kid i know that it from out side looks so super duper great but it isn't. I worked for EU and in this summer and in another i will be again some things are shiny but inside are realy crap and some things are realy great almoust outstanding but i can't talk much because i signed some papers about work secrets.
Blive me it's chance but it also brings lots of dangers.

[perdurabo]

EU will provide for our security we have nothign to worry about anymore, you really think that germany and france and Britain will set by and watch us get messed up again.
for few hundred years they did that and nothing bad to them happened only young Poles died all over world. We had documents signed with france and uk in 39 but they sat on their asses and watched when we where been masacrated and then again in 44-45 in Poczdam, Teheran and Jalta they gave us to russians. And erlier our ppl died for Napoleon and he gaved us nothing. and again Erlier when our country vanished form world maps nobody (except Turks) reacted. For real we can relay only on russians they never dissapointed us they allways tryied to kil us all make slaves out of us etc... :-). So calm down and relay only on yourselfe because when bad times comes up you are all alone.

[wholagun]

look kid i know that it from out side looks so super duper great but it isn't. I worked for EU and in this summer and in another i will be again some things are shiny but inside are realy crap and some things are realy great almoust outstanding but i can't talk much because i signed some papers about work secrets.
Blive me it's chance but it also brings lots of dangers.

im not kid im 20 years on April 6th.

I do understand that the EU has its down sides, everything does. But we have no choice, we can't do it alone and its better with EU help for us in the long run.

[Herrmannek]

Our involvment in Iraq was pure $$$$$ and we have yet to seed any big $$$$. on the other hand EU is paying 70 billion Euros of which we will see and which have have seen abit already.

In time we will come to favour Europe as our main ally, not US.

You are too hurrra optimistic...Don't believe in anything people say(including me), and don't lay hope in UE, esspecialy it becames more political than buisness animal. To be honest: I **** on politicaly united europe because it will represent interests of strongest(France and Germany) and rarely Poland's , small countrys can live with it, but Poland is to big to live from turism ....

Well im not as conservative as you guys are, no. Im more moderate when it comes to politics. I belive that we can't take take take and not give anything. You can't bite the hand that feeds you.

Germany is our neighbour, right next to us, we should have better relationship with the Germans then the Americans since they are not even on our continent.

Don't lay hope in EU? Where else can we lay hope in if not the EU. Look at Ireland, they took EU money and now 48 0000 GDP per capta. Look at Spain 22 000 GDP per capta and 5th economy, pretty good for a country thats been in the EU for 30 some odd years. EU will make our laws much better and easier to understand and allow us (well im in Canada) you guys to work in a few years, US hasn't take down the visa's for Poles.

We cannot be mad at Frace, France is the biggest investor in Poland 12 Billion Euros invested thus far. EU is set to invest 70 billion and build our highways and infastructure. Give it time, just be patient. With comprrimise on the voting, the voting system will be fairer for everyone, so we can't say that our interests will resprestented.

I like the EU because we can become the richhest country in the region and have the best economy and that is good for everyone in Poland and then we can get more say in our foreign policy and have more influence in internatinal politics. + have better army, navy and air force. :D

"Sense of my words was lost in translation" :) . I'm not against UE. We can coopearte in Buissnes/Military/Scientific/etc field for our common good. But don't think we will welcome with open hands your pinko commie ideas or old dirty trick with bears national interests of strongest nations, but not the common one.

[wholagun]

for few hundred years they did that and nothing bad to them happened only young Poles died all over world. We had documents signed with france and uk in 39 but they sat on their asses and watched when we where been masacrated and then again in 44-45 in Poczdam, Teheran and Jalta they gave us to russians. And erlier our ppl died for Napoleon and he gaved us nothing. and again Erlier when our country vanished form world maps nobody (except Turks) reacted. For real we can relay only on russians they never dissapointed us they allways tryied to kil us all make slaves out of us etc... . So calm down and relay only on yourselfe because when bad times comes up you are all alone.

I understand where your comming from, but you can't compare 1939 to now. Now like I said we are more integrated economically, socially, and politically with EU, you can't ignore that fact when you are talking about security.

[wholagun]

But don't think we will welcome with open hands your pinko commie ideas or old dirty trick with bears national interests of strongest nations, but not the common one

how are my ideas communist?

I gotta admit that was pretty funny, pinko communist. :lol: [/quote]

[Herrmannek]

Wholagun don't believe in protecting Poland by UE if it will not have buissnes in it or had beter somewhere else..."Buissnes is Buissnes" we have clear examples of such behavior through few ages already and this rule hasn't changed at all in the past 20 years... Thats why we want USA here, if they have buisness in Poland we with great probability will have also their protection :)...

[Herrmannek]

But don't think we will welcome with open hands your pinko commie ideas or old dirty trick with bears national interests of strongest nations, but not the common one

how are my ideas communist?

I gotta admit that was pretty funny, pinko communist. :lol:

This was rhetorical figure, and "Your" was prular and directed to all pinko commies reading that :)

[wholagun]

Wholagun don't believe in protecting Poland by UE if it will not have buissnes in it or had beter somewhere else..."Buissnes is Buissnes" we have clear examples of such behavior through few ages already and this rule hasn't changed at all in the past 20 years... Thats why we want USA here, if they have buisness in Poland we with great probability will have also their protection :)...

but we won't have US in Poland, they are not going to set up bases in Poland.

as I said before, Poland will get a good kick in the ass from the EU and a kick to the croch from the US. ;)

[Herrmannek]

but we won't have US in Poland, they are not going to set up bases in Poland.

as I said before, Poland will get a good kick in the ass from the EU and a kick to the croch from the US. ;)

So everything as ussual :)

[perdurabo]

look kid i know that it from out side looks so super duper great but it isn't. I worked for EU and in this summer and in another i will be again some things are shiny but inside are realy crap and some things are realy great almoust outstanding but i can't talk much because i signed some papers about work secrets.
Blive me it's chance but it also brings lots of dangers.

im not kid im 20 years on April 6th.

I do understand that the EU has its down sides, everything does. But we have no choice, we can't do it alone and its better with EU help for us in the long run.
sorry (congratulations but still you are at my younger sister age .... :) )
It stupid saying we don't have another option there is lots of options but this one brings the best posibilitys But country can't relay only on one option it allways has to have another doors so when things go bad you just go other way! and there is NO WAY to Poles to obbey Parris/Berlin in their national intrests Poland has to go with Polish national intrests now they are leading us with EU but some day they can lead us with russia china etc...


I understand where your comming from, but you can't compare 1939 to now. Now like I said we are more integrated economically, socially, and politically with EU, you can't ignore that fact when you are talking about security.
I can and i will. We died for them and what hapened in 45?:) so calm down!!

[perdurabo]

but we won't have US in Poland, they are not going to set up bases in Poland.

as I said before, Poland will get a good kick in the ass from the EU and a kick to the croch from the US. ;)
So they will have to find next 2500 soldiers to Iraq :) and also new ways to and from russia (oil for eu and goods for russia) :) we have few good cards in our hand maybe not all are Ases but few Kings and 10 i can find... :)

[wholagun]

I am calm, why is everyone saying calm down. :|

we do 75% of our trade with EU. We really do have alot riding on the EU, so we really do see EU as a big part of our future no doubt about it.

What I want is for us to follow the way of Spain, they joined kinda poor and now boom, the Spainish miracle. Spain is our size and we can really do this if we get our act togehter.

Im not saying we should take orders from Berlin or Paris no, I am saying is that we should work together with Europe and blocking the constitution in Demeber was not working with Europe. I am very pleased now that Miller has a new stance on the constitution and hopefully the Poles adopt the constittion.

[perdurabo]

I am calm, why is everyone saying calm down. :|

we do 75% of our trade with EU. We really do have alot riding on the EU, so we really do see EU as a big part of our future no doubt about it.

What I want is for us to follow the way of Spain, they joined kinda poor and now boom, the Spainish miracle. Spain is our size and we can really do this if we get our act togehter.

Im not saying we should take orders from Berlin or Paris no, I am saying is that we should work together with Europe and blocking the constitution in Demeber was not working with Europe. I am very pleased now that Miller has a new stance on the constitution and hopefully the Poles adopt the constittion.
No the voting systeem is still bad!! it gives to much power to berlin and paris and to litlle for warsaw
but without support of spain we can go only on compromise!
you still se EU as and opponent for USA it isn't look UK Spain Italy and lots of others are in Iraq are they dooing aginst EU? or they dooing aginst France ang Germany? they go their way!

[HELEX]

UK is already moving back to EU, but they can not pull out of Iraq without loosing their face. Relations between USA and UK cooled down...

[Kitsune]

THEIR way? Hardly. They go the American way to ingratiate themselves with the US. That goes for Britain, Spain, Dutchland, Italy and Poland.

The only nation in Europe, who goes their OWN way is France. And Germany had at least the guts to start with it (While we did not fell for Bushs lies in Iraq we fell for them in Afghanistan. The whole Karsai Regime was a big scam from the start, and our soldier are right in it. Stupid. I hope we learn from this).

I think now that it was a big mistake to let the Polish into the EU. The whole Eastern European countries should have left out. The Polish prevented the constitution the first time, and we will not see the constitution until June because of the Polish AGAIN (this time because of their crappy interior politics).
And that is a country whose economy is not a tenth of those of Germany, will pocket lots of our money, was supported by us all the way and slaps us now in the face again and again. The voting system proposed is perfectly fair. But look at perdurabos attitude! If many Poles think so they will be nothing but trouble.

Get out of the EU! Become 52nd state of the US or go your own way, fine with me. Germany should go with France and Belgium.

[tony6]

Wow Kitsune!
I'm impressed!

[tony6]

Despite the whole rest of Your pretty hot-blooded post: tell me-if the Nice treaty was so bad-HOW COME YOU AGREED ON IT AND SIGN IT???
It's about RESPECTING YOUUR WON OBLIGATIONS, buddy.
We are not kids in the kindegarden's playground.
If You put Your signature on the paper - it's done.
Meaning: YOU GAVE YOUR WORD.
So now we know that Your word is worth of ****.
Welcome to EU!
Sorry to tell ya that-but if You don't have nothing else to say than don't say nothing at all. Your post was like a baby cry: "moooomyy-they tooook my teeeddy bearr, I'm gonna cry!".

[tony6]

BTW:
how the things are going with overcoming Your (and France) budget?
Are You gonna obey your own EU law and pay the fines for it?
No?
Ah yes-I understand: Germany and France are above that ****.
THEY are the law.

Welcome to EU!

[Seoulstriker]

Don't worry Seoul - I reckon you allready have nessecary basics - "k...wa" for long time proved to be one of the best (eg. most expressive) curses in the world ;) And since you got even ability to produce some simple combination saying: "k...a p...ny" then you're following the right path. I'm preety serious here - that little "K- word" proved to be the best curse in the languages known to man - no "f...k" can compare...
(ask me and I'll show you how to make a cute 14-elements combo including some worst/best swearing phrases in polish).


trust me, i've heard my fair share of stringed cuss words. and k...wa does indeed seem to be the best of them. :)



About the politics - at least Miller decided to cut this ****... Its no use to comment it here. It wont inflict the presence of Polish troops in the world - they're formally under president's command not PM.


i see. is there any word on the replacement?

[Herrmannek]

i see. is there any word on the replacement?

THere is no way you can make pizza from bull **** even they both are round and flat :)

[Kitsune]

Despite the whole rest of Your pretty hot-blooded post: tell me-if the Nice treaty was so bad-HOW COME YOU AGREED ON IT AND SIGN IT???


Why? That is not that difficult to understand. Reason is that the voting system of the EU was designed for SIX nations. With 15 it did not work anymore, you could not agree on anything!
And that lead to decisions like Nice. No other decision could be reached, and they were so keen to present a harmonious picture, that they agreed on this totally ****ed up teaty. And yes it was a BIG mistake that keeps on haunting us. Now the Union is comprised of 25 memberstates and is becoming a joke. And they keep coming! Bulgary, Rumania. They are even talking about letting Turkey in!
And if that happens we are finished.

In fact I agree with Perdurabo and most of you, don't you see? Poland should go its own way.



BTW:
how the things are going with overcoming Your (and France) budget?
Are You gonna obey your own EU law and pay the fines for it?
No?
Ah yes-I understand: Germany and France are above that ****.
THEY are the law.

Welcome to EU!

Always the same old story. Man, is there nothing else? And by the way Britain has transgressed the same line for 2003. And there is nothing happening here, too. So include them into your rantings. And Poland will transgress it, too, sooner or later, if no miracle happens. Then you will be glad to have a reason not to pay. And then you will hopefully stop bringing this up again and again.

Again I say: You don't like the EU? Then leave.

[tony6]

When I was talkin bout Nnice I meant: why did You give 27 votes to Poland then?
Now You keep talking how ifficult it would be to vote with 25 members but on fact YOU HAVENT TRIED THAT YET. So how can You tell it doesn't work when we are not even in the EU?

And what about that budget overcoming stuff?
You didn't answer so I guess I hit the point.
If it was to be a precedent then thank You very much for that kind of "union".

[tony6]

Sorry-I was replaying to Your not-finished post.
But that's just the point-if Poland overcame its budget I bet we would have to pay. We are not Germany. You can always say "hey! we pay the most cash here so f*** off!"

Again I say: You don't like the EU? Then leave.
Now it's impossible my friend-democracy.
But if I knew earlier that You will screw us with Nice treaty I would think twice before voting "yes" during the polls.
And BTW: don't like Poland in EU? Your Bundestag shouldn't have approved our joining. You could have said "no" my friend as well as we.

[Kitsune]

Sorry-I was replaying to Your not-finished post.
But that's just the point-if Poland overcame its budget I bet we would have to pay. We are not Germany. You can always say "hey! we pay the most cash here so f*** off!"

No problem, my fault.

No You would not have to pay. Not after this **** France and Germany did. And it is **** you are right with your complains. But a certain other country Poland wants to be allied with has done much worse, lately, it lied and cheated. Compared to this France and Germany are smallish rogues only. And I am just tired after hearing it for the hundred thousandth time...

[wholagun]

Why am I the only one that is optimistic here.

I see the december treaty as bull****, there was way too much BS in the air in Brussels. Now France and German, Sprain and Poland are all more willing to compromise which in the end is best for everyone.

Kitskune, we make up 1/10th of German economy, yeah, but for how long?

Why does everyone short term, nothing is short term, if you think short term you'll always make the wrong decision and regret it down the road. Germany was the one that was saying without Poland there is not EU expansion since we make up half the GDP output of the new country joining and over half the population. We join now and develop faster, or we join later and lose the years we could've been in the EU from May 1st 2004. Thats the way i see it.

The Franco German union with Belgium would not have worked, Jocka Fisher said it himself its pretty much a dead idea now since only those three were in the faster pase group, where was Italy, Netherlands didn't like the idea as well.

[tony6]

And I am just tired after hearing it for the hundred thousandth time...
Maybe it's because we still haven't heard satisfaction answer?


But a certain other country Poland wants to be allied with has done much worse, lately, it lied and cheated.
Only because we don't agree with You on some matters and we blocked your fancy constitution we are liers and cheaters?

[Kitsune]

Kitskune, we make up 1/10th of German economy, yeah, but for how long?


I agree, the imense difference between Polish and German per capita GDP will lagely vanish during the next 3 decades. But that is not the point.

The point is, that we Europeans have to strive for independence from the US. They are not dependent from us aren't they? Americans would find the very idea NOT to be able to defend their homecountry without French or Germany funny at best. Anytime the US President declares that the US will not bow to the wishes of foreign nations but decide their own fate, he gets standing ovations, instantly.
I want the same for Europe. But the problem is we need a certain will to cooperate to achieve this. A will that is lacking in Great Britain, Spain, Dutchland and especially Poland.

But France, Belgium and Germany ARE big enough. 150 million people, in overall power, if you include economics, technology, military strength this "Carolingian Europe" is only surpassed by the USA in power. The notion that this idea is dead is the thinking of our stupid present government, who sent troops to Afghanistan, signed the Nice treaty, said "Yes" to the Turkish EU membership...and did lots of other nonsense like this.
As it looks now, they will be gone by 2006. Perhaps the idea of a German/French/Belgium Alliance is found to be alive and kicking by then. As for the rest of the EU members, they can step out when they want, kiss the US ass as often as they want or treat the EU as "business only" any way they want.
The only one to rely on when it comes to a closer cooperation in foreign and security policy are France, Germany, Belgium (and Luxembourg...sry). And lets not forget that there is a LOT of work to be done in these areas. Someone has to go forward and pioneer it. And that takes commitment to the matter. It cannot be done by 25 nations from which some have not even decided wether they are lying in Europe, the US or are a continent by themselves (look at the British attitude in this matter :roll: ).

When it works, the other nations can join or not at their leisure.



Only because we don't agree with You on some matters and we blocked your fancy constitution we are liers and cheaters?
Don't know wether you are, but I did not mean Poland with this. Guess again. ;)

[aeternum]

Only because we don't agree with You on some matters and we blocked your fancy constitution we are liers and cheaters?

Blocked? No, you just delayed it. By June the EU will have a constitution. And it will look the way it was worked out at the convention.

[budanski]

Don't mind me, I'm just sitting here on the fence today. ;)

[aeternum]

Don't mind me, I'm just sitting here on the fence today. ;)

popcorn? http://mysmilies.ipbfree.com/s/cwm/cwm/lurk.gif

[budanski]

Don't mind if I do. :D

[Kitsune]

I don't think so aeternum. Messy Polish interior politics will prevent it. They will not have a working government from May 2nd on. And it probably take months to bring order to the chaos.

And the constitution will be a compromise...thx to the Polish. Those compromise will probably one in which if all 15 nations of the Old EU will agree on something and the few newcomers do not, no decision will be reached...although the first group ist VASTLY more powerful then the second one (more than 15 times the economic power of the second group and a much bigger population, too).
That way the not overly radical proposition for a fair voting system that gave will be downgraded even more...hardly the way to go, I think.



budanski wrote:

Don't mind me, I'm just sitting here on the fence today.

I bet. Enjoy.

[wholagun]

Blocked? No, you just delayed it. By June the EU will have a constitution. And it will look the way it was worked out at the convention.

aaahhh yes finally someone sees it the way I do.

The december convention was a way of 15 especially France and Germany punishing Spain and Poland so its wasn't fair at all. Everyone agrees that the atmoshphere in december was not one of compromise all sides dug in their heels and held firm

I can see Kitskune that your not gonna budge on this issue of not wanting 25 states so im not gonna try and convince you on that but what is done is done and you can't go back now.. All i know is that on May 1st I will have my EU flag and Polish flag hanging side by side on my wall as it is already today. Being in Caada I can't really go out and party int he streets with everyone else :| . No one really cares in Canada. :(

[Kitsune]

If only all Poles would think like you, wholagun. Believe me, I really wish they would, then everything would be fine.

Become Polish Prime Minister as soon as possible!

[wholagun]

If only all Poles would think like you, wholagun. Believe me, I really wish they would, then everything would be fine.

Become Polish Prime Minister as soon as possible!

I wish I could become PM or President even, but they wouldn't accept me since I live in Canada and I left Poland at age 4. :| But you never know, I just may in the future.

[tony6]

budanski wrote:
Don't mind me, I'm just sitting here on the fence today.


popcorn?
Having fun, guys? :D
Ok-so let's rock!

[tony6]

They will not have a working government from May 2nd on. And it probably take months to bring order to the chaos.
Wanna bet?


Messy Polish interior politics will prevent it.
So You're saying that Mr. Schroeder's interior politics is not messy?
rofl
That was a good one, man!

[Kitsune]

Well I certainly will not say here that I like Schröders interior politics. ;)

But I meant something else: Millers way of ruling Poland may have been the best thing since the invention of sliced bread, I have no clue (nor do I care) but the problem is, most Polish seem to think differently: less than 10 % agreed with him being PM according to polls, and that's desastrous. Even Schröder is far from being this unpopular (unfortunatly, I would like to see him following Millers example and step back but he seems not to intend to do that anytime soon :( ).
After Miller steps back, the Polish will have a new election (and when will that be? Before june? We will see...) and then we will have to see if they can agree on a new government (and with the quite complex polish interior politics this can be problem, can't it?)
And until this all has happened Poland will not have a proper government, any decision about Europe made during that time will probably not supported by the governement that later comes to power...so they will make no decision. And thats what I meant with "messy".


So probably no EU constitution in june.

[Herrmannek]

Kitsune his loss of support is efect of internal politics and has nothing to do with UE...Pepole choosed him because they thought last stuff was bad, but they changed axe for stick details aren't interesting he is jus pinko commie scum... And Kitsune we want cooperate but coopeartion implicate common profits not one sided or even looses on one, it is not strange that we protecting our strongly endengerd interests as wolfs. If we make one big mistake we will vanish and became next land of Germany or next Bieloruisa with are thing we can't agree on. :)

[aeternum]

I don't think so aeternum. Messy Polish interior politics will prevent it. They will not have a working government from May 2nd on. And it probably take months to bring order to the chaos.

And the constitution will be a compromise...thx to the Polish. Those compromise will probably one in which if all 15 nations of the Old EU will agree on something and the few newcomers do not, no decision will be reached...although the first group ist VASTLY more powerful then the second one (more than 15 times the economic power of the second group and a much bigger population, too).
That way the not overly radical proposition for a fair voting system that gave will be downgraded even more...hardly the way to go, I think.

I really dont think so we will get such a "compromise". Why? because Poland is all alone today. Its 15, 24 countries soon, against the exorbitant agenda of poland.

The compromise which will be worked out, will be much more like the proposal made by the Irish presidency. Instead of the 50/60-rule (50% of all council members and 60% of the population) it will be a 55/55-rule (55% of the council members and 55% of the population). And i can live with that.

[wholagun]

im just curious what happens if one country rejects the constitution in parliament and in referendum? both of which very well may happen, thats why im gonna vote for the constitution by mailing my vote in.

is the country out of the EU, does the whole thing get set back? what?

[aeternum]

im just curious what happens if one country rejects the constitution in parliament and in referendum?

The EU will surrender to Turkey with the words: "We are not worthy to run Europe, please lead us!" ;)

[wholagun]

im just curious what happens if one country rejects the constitution in parliament and in referendum?

The EU will surrender to Turkey with the words: "We are not worthy to run Europe, please lead us!" ;)

huh? :| I don't get it.

[Brzeczyszczykiewicz]

To all Polish US-lovers:
You say that US will defend Poland. Strange way of thinking, because they don't want to give us 5 C-130s, worth 50 mln $. They don't want to give us FIVE planes, and you think that they will send their great-and-mighty US Army with hundreds to tanks, aircraft, ships etc. just to defend Poland?
rofl

I'm pro-European. It's better to have a friend behind the Odra than behind Atlantic Ocean.

[Brzeczyszczykiewicz]

for few hundred years they did that and nothing bad to them happened only young Poles died all over world. We had documents signed with france and uk in 39 but they sat on their asses and watched when we where been masacrated and then again in 44-45 in Poczdam, Teheran and Jalta they gave us to russians. And erlier our ppl died for Napoleon and he gaved us nothing. and again Erlier when our country vanished form world maps nobody (except Turks) reacted. For real we can relay only on russians they never dissapointed us they allways tryied to kil us all make slaves out of us etc... :-). So calm down and relay only on yourselfe because when bad times comes up you are all alone.

Who gave us to Russians at Yalta? Our great ally US president F.D. Roosevelt.

[perdurabo]

Brzeczyszczykiewicz i'm not us-lover i love only Poland! (...and my sabre!) look again at my posts i know my english is bad but they should be easy to understand, All nations go their way. sometimes we should stick with USA sometimes with France sometimes with Russia sometimes even with satan itselfe! And i allso said tha when bad times come we will be alone as allways are, we can relay only on ourselves!

Kitsune maybe you don't know that but with constitution we agreed we didn't agreed on voting system and we wanted compromise France said no compromise so we said no, even Germany wanted compromise. so f** off.

[Herrmannek]

Brzęczyk you are right. I don't believe anyone will help us when real poo will hit the fan, but at least we can try...

[aeternum]

Brzeczyszczykiewicz i'm not us-lover i love only Poland! (...and my sabre!)

What about the EU? Ahh i forgot thats just something that gives you money. Lack of European sprit it is, what makes we worried about the entire enlargement!

The voteing system you wanted to go with, the nizza-system, is a system which works only in a very homogeneous envirnonment, where the general differences are marginal, so its easy to get all together on a common bases. A EU of 15 now and 25 soon is anything but homogeneuos. Its very hetergeneous! Using the Nizza-system every single country has to agree to an issue, if they dont, the entire issue get dropped. Even tho when 24 countries agree and only 1 country refuses.
Sorry, but if you think that would work out than you live in a dreamworld. The EU would be damned to deadlock for the time beeing.

So instead to go with Nizza, which was originally designed for a EU with 6 (SIX), not for 25 countries, the majority of the countries, even Poland, decided to change the system along giving the EU a constitution. The constitution was worked out by representatives of every of the 25 nation at the convention (http://european-convention.eu.int/) and every representative, yes the polnish too, agreed on the draft, which did include the double-majority vote system to replace the nizza-system.

The double-majority-voting-sytem which will be established, is the only solution for a working EU of 25+ countries.

[tony6]

Even Schröder is far from being this unpopular (unfortunatly, I would like to see him following Millers example and step back but he seems not to intend to do that anytime soon ).
Miller "stepping back" is a result of disaster polls which You mentioned (10% support). He will give his armchair to someone else and that's it.
The election will be no sooner that autumn 2004/spring 2005.
I say we will have a compromise in june.

[perdurabo]

Brzeczyszczykiewicz i'm not us-lover i love only Poland! (...and my sabre!)

What about the EU? Ahh i forgot thats just something that gives you money. Lack of European sprit it is, what makes we worried about the entire enlargement!

The voteing system you wanted to go with, the nizza-system, is a system which works only in a very homogeneous envirnonment, where the general differences are marginal, so its easy to get all together on a common bases. A EU of 15 now and 25 soon is anything but homogeneuos. Its very hetergeneous! Using the Nizza-system every single country has to agree to an issue, if they dont, the entire issue get dropped. Even tho when 24 countries agree and only 1 country refuses.
Sorry, but if you think that would work out than you live in a dreamworld. The EU would be damned to deadlock for the time beeing.

So instead to go with Nizza, which was originally designed for a EU with 6 (SIX), not for 25 countries, the majority of the countries, even Poland, decided to change the system along giving the EU a constitution. The constitution was worked out by representatives of every of the 25 nation at the convention (http://european-convention.eu.int/) and every representative, yes the polnish too, agreed on the draft, which did include the double-majority vote system to replace the nizza-system.

The double-majority-voting-sytem which will be established, is the only solution for a working EU of 25+ countries.
and tell me where is france and german thinking about common good?
maybe nice isn't superb system but give it a chence! and if no, we can go compromise but don't you think that we support option where Germany or France will make hegemony and we will be pushed down.
Edit: i edited my mistakes

[tony6]

What about the EU? Ahh i forgot thats just something that gives you money. Lack of European sprit it is, what makes we worried about the entire enlargement!
Dude-our "European spirit" was cooled down a little bit in 1945 after You left us in soviet-domination area for 50 years.
It takes time to rebuild that "spirit" and trust to all those western European countries.

[aeternum]

Brzeczyszczykiewicz i'm not us-lover i love only Poland! (...and my sabre!)

What about the EU? Ahh i forgot thats just something that gives you money. Lack of European sprit it is, what makes we worried about the entire enlargement!

The voteing system you wanted to go with, the nizza-system, is a system which works only in a very homogeneous envirnonment, where the general differences are marginal, so its easy to get all together on a common bases. A EU of 15 now and 25 soon is anything but homogeneuos. Its very hetergeneous! Using the Nizza-system every single country has to agree to an issue, if they dont, the entire issue get dropped. Even tho when 24 countries agree and only 1 country refuses.
Sorry, but if you think that would work out than you live in a dreamworld. The EU would be damned to deadlock for the time beeing.

So instead to go with Nizza, which was originally designed for a EU with 6 (SIX), not for 25 countries, the majority of the countries, even Poland, decided to change the system along giving the EU a constitution. The constitution was worked out by representatives of every of the 25 nation at the convention (http://european-convention.eu.int/) and every representative, yes the polnish too, agreed on the draft, which did include the double-majority vote system to replace the nizza-system.

The double-majority-voting-sytem which will be established, is the only solution for a working EU of 25+ countries.
and tell me where is france and german thinking about common good?
maybe nice isn't superb system but give it a chence! and if no, we can go compromise but don't you think that we support option where Germany or France will make hegemony and we will be pushed down.
Edit: i edited my mistakes

Thats the point. It isnt about France, nor Germany and not Poland! It is all about the EU. What system does work best for a EU of 25 countries is the question you have to ask, and not what does Poland fit best.

As i said lack of EU-spirit, you just dont see the overall picture of an EU, but your sticked to a limited "putyourcountryin" view.

[aeternum]

What about the EU? Ahh i forgot thats just something that gives you money. Lack of European sprit it is, what makes we worried about the entire enlargement!
Dude-our "European spirit" was cooled down a little bit in 1945 after You left us in soviet-domination area for 50 years.
It takes time to rebuild that "spirit" and trust to all those western European countries.

If you think your population is not yet ready to join the EU, then dont! Nobody does force Poland to join.

[tony6]

I didn't say that our population was not ready.
Our population just don't trust Your words-that's it.
And I don't blame them-just take a look at Nice treaty (was it good 2 years ago and now it's not?) or at those budget overcoming law farce... It's pathetic.
EU as a political vision is beautiful but it's only a vision.
Remember kosowo and all that ****? EU was unable to handle that conflict just in front of her nose. I was laughing to tears lately-I read about Afghan mission (which is now led by EU). Commanders asked for some 12-15 extra helos to provide air transport/medevac for troops and EU said "well, you know-not now, we don't have any avaiable plus it's quite expensive" and all that ****. Afghan EU forces commander call it "scandal" and it ended with some extra helos send by Turkey :D
Do You really think that EU can be some counter-balance fore to the US with all that bueraucracy and pacifism?
Don't make me laugh, please. EU is just a trade union-that's it.

[aeternum]

I didn't say that our population was not ready.
Our population just don't trust Your words-that's it. Fine, dont join! Saves us alot of money to get your country up to speed.


And I don't blame them-just take a look at Nice treaty (was it good 2 years ago and now it's not?) or at those budget overcoming law farce... It's pathetic.

The nice-treaty was a bad solution either. A lame compromise to cooldown the french and british fears about a too powerful germany.


EU as a political vision is beautiful but it's only a vision.
No its not. For you the EU is just a trade union for you economical benefit. For me its the vision of a united and powerful Europe on a economical, political and security level.


Remember kosowo and all that ****? EU was unable to handle that conflict just in front of her nose.
Yes, Kosovo was a tragedy. Not the lack of polical will prevent the EU to intervene, but the lack of military capabilities. We as Europeans had to ask the US for assistance in order to get it going. But its a lesson learned.

All major european armies are currently undergoing a major restructuring, in order to intervene everywhere its neccasary. But this restructuring does take time and wont be complete until 2007-2010.



I was laughing to tears lately-I read about Afghan mission (which is now led by EU).
No, its led by NATO!


Do You really think that EU can be some counter-balance fore to the US with all that bueraucracy and pacifism?
Its not about counter-balance, but about being independet. economically, technological and military.


Don't make me laugh, please. EU is just a trade union-that's it.
No its not, with the constitution established you will realize that. Or do you know any other trade union on this plant that happens to have a parliament, a military staff, a constitution?

[Herrmannek]

Or do you know any other trade union on this plant that happens to have a parliament, a military staff, a constitution?
CCCP :)

[tony6]

Fine, dont join! Saves us alot of money to get your country up to speed.
Don't forget that You also want us to join. It's not only one-way road.


All major european armies are currently undergoing a major restructuring, in order to intervene everywhere its neccasary. But this restructuring does take time and wont be complete until 2007-2010.
I would like to have so much optimism as you do.


No, its led by NATO!
My mistake-point is that Americans want EU to get more involved there.


No its not, with the constitution established you will realize that. Or do you know any other trade union on this plant that happens to have a parliament, a military staff, a constitution?
Does it have one common foriegn policy and foreign affairs minister?
No-and it'll never have. Differences between EU countries in foreign affairs are to bid I think.

[aeternum]

All major european armies are currently undergoing a major restructuring, in order to intervene everywhere its neccasary. But this restructuring does take time and wont be complete until 2007-2010.
I would like to have so much optimism as you do.

We have 3 major military powers in the EU. Both France and Britain are already up to speed. Just Germany is lacking the capabilities, but they will be solved by 2010.




No its not, with the constitution established you will realize that. Or do you know any other trade union on this plant that happens to have a parliament, a military staff, a constitution?
Does it have one common foriegn policy and foreign affairs minister?
No-and it'll never have. Differences between EU countries in foreign affairs are to bid I think.
A common foreign affair minister-alike is part of the constitution, if i remember right. But just the fact we dont have something yet, doesnt mean its wont happen ever. The EU is still in developing, heck its even growing. Give it a few more decades and you will see, that it is way more than just a trade union.

[Brzeczyszczykiewicz]

Brzeczyszczykiewicz i'm not us-lover i love only Poland! (...and my sabre!) look again at my posts i know my english is bad but they should be easy to understand, All nations go their way. sometimes we should stick with USA sometimes with France sometimes with Russia sometimes even with satan itselfe! And i allso said tha when bad times come we will be alone as allways are, we can relay only on ourselves!

I wasn't directly saying that to you :D

95% agree with your post, but my point is:
Poland is a buffer zone between ex-USSR countries and Western Europe. So if any Belarus/Ukraine/Russia/something would attack us, it's in Western countries interest to help us, because if they don't, they will be next. And it's in our interest is to have good relations with Germany and rest of the EU. If we want to do something in our own interest, or something contradictory (sp?) with EU politics, we should do it and sit quiet. Example- Italy sent ca. 1200 soldiers to Iraq, and noone is calling them traitors of the EU or trojan donkeys.
But we of course had to invite Bush, shout about 'great Polish-American friendship' etc. And now we have good relations with country behind Atlantic, but our relations with Europe are screwed.

[HELEX]

Example- Italy sent ca. 1200 soldiers to Iraq, and noone is calling them traitors of the EU or trojan donkeys.

Berlusconi is just called idiot... or Mafioso.... and they are called traitors. :lol:

[Herrmannek]

Brzęczyk problem is UE wants desperatly to do buisneses with mighty Russia not with poor small Poland. If they will have to choose from defending Poland and living us alone to be eaten by Rusia and then make buissnes with it they will choose second...I'm sure UE will awake like in 39 with its hand in piss-pot :) ...

[Brzeczyszczykiewicz]

Berlusconi is just called idiot... or Mafioso.... and they are called traitors. :lol:

:oops: :cantbeli:


Brz?czyk problem is UE wants desperatly to do buisneses with mighty Russia not with poor small Poland. If they will have to choose from defending Poland and living us alone to be eaten by Rusia and then make buissnes with it they will choose second...I'm sure UE will awake like in 39 with its hand in piss-pot ...

Aaaaargh f*ck politics :roll:

Now I will STFU and go find some nice thread about military equipment :D

[Herrmannek]

Not much equipment in sundays :(

[tony6]

Don't get me wrong, man.
I would also like see EU as one political organism with strong military and quick decision-making procedures but now it is only a dream.
Even right now we're sitting on our asses in front of the screen posting some **** about something which doesn't even exist yet.
I think that EU constitution will be signed in june and then we will see.
It takes some few years to find out how this new 25-members EU is doing. Right now any discussions like that are rather pointless, don't You think?

[Kitsune]

Herrmanek wrote:

Brzęczyk problem is UE wants desperatly to do buisneses with mighty Russia not with poor small Poland. If they will have to choose from defending Poland and living us alone to be eaten by Rusia and then make buissnes with it they will choose second...I'm sure UE will awake like in 39 with its hand in piss-pot ...

Only an idiot would believe this. Times have changed since 1939.

And please don't forget that in 1945 the big shots were the Americans, not the French or the English. They even had the nuclear bomb, so not even the Russians could stand against them. Nonetheless the American leadership at the time decided that Poland was not important enough for them and left it to the Soviets.
Why are you accusing the EU for this, that did not even exist at that time?

[tony6]

And please don't forget that in 1945 the big shots were the Americans, not the French or the English. They even had the nuclear bomb, so not even the Russians could stand against them. Nonetheless the American leadership at the time decided that Poland was not important enough for them and left it to the Soviets.
Why are you accusing the EU for this, that did not even exist at that time?
The guy has a point here.
:D

[wholagun]

ok so we sign the constitution but will be ratify it? Will the people accept it in a referendum? I know I will but you others in Poland? (I doubt it)

[Herrmannek]

Herrmanek wrote:

Brzęczyk problem is UE wants desperatly to do buisneses with mighty Russia not with poor small Poland. If they will have to choose from defending Poland and living us alone to be eaten by Rusia and then make buissnes with it they will choose second...I'm sure UE will awake like in 39 with its hand in piss-pot ...

Only an idiot would believe this. Times have changed since 1939.

And please don't forget that in 1945 the big shots were the Americans, not the French or the English. They even had the nuclear bomb, so not even the Russians could stand against them. Nonetheless the American leadership at the time decided that Poland was not important enough for them and left it to the Soviets.
Why are you accusing the EU for this, that did not even exist at that time?

You are right completly right, but there is one question I need to ask you: Will we became "important enough" after joinig UE?

[wholagun]

why do we need power in the EU?

Why can't we just take the money shut up and build our economy that way when we do have a war we're set, we'll be rich, and have huge industrial might and to go along with that a big army.

why do we need to sway decision making in the EU? I don't understand this? what does everyone want to control the EU? Why can't people in Poland understand the EU works in this way : I take alittle, you give alittle, I give alittle you take alittle. Its not about get get get. You work with other countries to get what you want, you don't stomp your feet and say scew you im getting everything I want. We do this we won't ge anything, who pay our bills? Thats right, and whod do we stand on bad terms with?

I can give a **** less if France nad Germany have thier own agenda how does that affect Poland? Does it make us poorer or weaker? NO. Why can't we work with them build a strong integrated economy and eventually we'll be so integrated that our security will be guarenteed becaseuse of the level of integration.

[Herrmannek]

BTW I lossed threaad :oops: What we are fighting about? :oops:

I will sum my "opionions"

I'm for strong and cooperating Poland in EU, with can defend its soverginity,
its uniques and moral standards. We must also have means of protection from franco-german imperialism. We also should search suport outside UE because alliances that can't be break off are non existant...