Soldiers in Iraq Buy Their Own Body Armor

[farmgirl]

http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&cid=540&ncid=736&e=10&u=/ap/20040326/ap_on_re_mi_ea/iraq_body_armor


By RYAN LENZ, Associated Press Writer

Soldiers headed for Iraq (news - web sites) are still buying their own body armor — and in many cases, their families are buying it for them — despite assurances from the military that the gear will be in hand before they're in harm's way.

Body armor distributors have received steady inquiries from soldiers and families about purchasing the gear, which can cost several thousand dollars. Though the military has advised them not to rely on third-party suppliers, many soldiers say they want it before they deploy.

Last October, it was reported that nearly one-quarter of American troops serving in Iraq did not have ceramic plated body armor, which can stop bullets fired from assault rifles and shrapnel.

The military says the shortfall is over and soldiers who do not yet have the armor soon will. But many want to avoid the risk.

"What we hear from soldiers is that they are told that they are going to get body armor just before they leave or just after they get there. But they don't want to take a chance," said Nick Taylor, owner of Bulletproofme.com, an online distributor of body armor in Austin, Texas.

Inquiries rise and fall with the rate of deployments, fueled by stories of units falling under attack as little as a day after being issued body armor. Whether they are true, the stories are prompting families to think about buying the equipment, Taylor said.

Reliance Armor in Cincinnati, which makes armored vests for soldiers and police, has nearly doubled in size as a result of the shortage.

"We're getting people locally who are deployed National Guard and parents, specifically, coming in and buying," said Don Budke, the company's vice president of sales. "The military people don't want to advertise the fact that there are people doing this on their own."

Dan Britt paid about $1,400 for body armor for his son, a medic stationed in Kuwait who had orders to move into Baghdad. He recently heard his son received it.

"In war, as we've learned through all our history, who gets killed and who doesn't is just happenstance," said the father from Hamilton, Ohio. "But if I can raise the odds, then I'll feel better."

Those that need the armor most are already certain to have it, said Army spokesman Maj. Gary Tallman, and families should not buy the equipment.

"What we have told family members who have contacted us is that the Army cannot attest to the safety or the level of protection of body armor purchased rather than issued for a soldier," Tallman said.

The Defense Department says it has contracted with one manufacturer for its armor. Point Blank Body Armor, which produces the Interceptor brand, has all but stopped selling to the public.

Nancy Durst recently learned that her husband, a soldier with an Army reserve unit from Maine serving in Iraq, spent four months without body armor. She said she would have bought armor for her husband had vests not been cycled into his unit.

Even if her husband now has body armor, Durst said she was angry he was without it at any time. Her husband also has told her that reservists have not been given the same equipment as active duty soldiers. "They're so sick of being treated as second-class soldiers," she said.

Sen. Susan Collins, R-Maine, who serves on the Armed Services subcommittee, said she knows soldiers who were told by the military to buy body armor before leaving, rather than risk arriving with nothing but their shirts.

"We lagged far behind in making sure that our soldiers who are performing very difficult and dangerous missions had protective equipment," she said.

A bill being considered in Congress would reimburse families who bought body armor before the Army asked for increased production to bridge the gap between soldiers who had armor and those that did not.

Jonathan Turley, a George Washington University law professor who has talked with hundreds of families who bought body armor for soldiers in Iraq, said the military lost the trust of soldiers' families.

In that regard, it is not surprising that families bought body armor in spite of what military advised, he said.

"There still is a lingering level of mistrust with some families as to whether there are people thinking about the best equipment and needs of their loved ones," Turley said. "No one that I know of has been truly held accountable."

[Mr Gently Benevolent]

http://www.danzigercartoons.com/img/2004/dancart1966.jpg

[scm77]

lol.

[RSK]

300 billion dollar budget and no flack vests??

[anonymous individual]

It is very sad to hear that.

[ibstolidude]

Many of the NG (combat arms) and reserve units that have not deployed to HFZs in a long time do not have more modern level 3+ protection - they have flak vests.

[George W. Bush]

300 billion dollar budget and no flack vests??

A flak jacket protects from fragmentation, not direct hits with M43 round for example. That's what ceramic plates (Interceptor vest) does. There is no shortage of flak jackets. The Iraqi Civil Defense Corps wears our PASGT flak jackets that were first issued in the 60's. U.S. Infantry and Marines have the newer Interceptor with ceramic plates(this can stop 7.62x39 AP).

[Tane Angle]

ibistolidude said it. I've even seen some active duty folks out on patrol in not-so-welcoming parts of Iraq with PASGTs on. Also, many of the folks with Interceptors have only one or no plates. It's a crying shame. Tax cut or Interceptors with 2 plates. Tax cut or Interceptors with 2 plates. I don't know about the rest of you, but I think I would have been ok with paying a few extra tax dollars there.

Not to nitpick, bud, but PASGT's came out in-correct me if I'm wrong-but the early 80s, just in time for some units to have them in Grenada, though I think the Rangers still had the old Vietnam-era ones(69s). In Lebanon, we were sporting the old Vietnam type ourselves, if/when we wore body armor. PASGT's are the woodland ones with shoulder pads and two-part neck protection. The Vietnam ones were OD with no shoulder pads and a one part collar. No harm, no foul though.

Also in Iraq, I did actually see ARNG guys, I think they were engineers, if memory serves correctly, wearing the old OD ones. I felt bad for those guys.

Have a good one all, and just some thoughts...

[HoboWithAK]

I hear a lot of people buying their own armor and what suprises me is that a lot of people die from blunt trauma, even though the bullet did not penetrate. Most of your average soldiers probably wouldn't be educated on blunt trauma if they didnt have the vests, so when they go out to buy them they might save money and only get the plates.

[Uncle Sam]

These soldiers deserve every chance to stay alive as possible! And they deserve the best equipment! I would gladly spend all the money in my personal account to make sure, at least some, get adequate body armor, not just "flak jackets"! Everyone should have this equipment! From NG to regular Army from cook to grunt!! This is a disgrace that the U.S. Military cannot outfit its' soldiers with even the basics of equipment. When I was in, (90's) we got issued the Ranger body armor with the ceramic plates, and these guys are getting Vietnam era crap!

[rob]

300 billion dollar budget and no flack vests??

this is why i feel the xm8 and some other programs can atleast wait a little bit until they have the important things sorted.

[usa320]

Agreed. XM-8 should be put off. M-4's and M-16A4's work fine enough. Body armor though should be given to ALL units...

[radon]

Maybe the Us Army could use it's money in another way. Like get Diesel engine powered tanks and replace the hummer with something more fuel efficient etc. Just my theory on this.

[Ratamacue]

The DOD likes the turbine in the Abrams, so I wouldn't count on them going to diesel anytime soon.

[Catch22]

There was a scandal in Poland when press found out that our standard army flak jackets (OLV) got no back plates... Now all versions sent to Iraq got both, also the new IBA style MOPAT 2004 got both front and back plates.

One funny thing - US donated about 6000 body armour pieces to International Brigade - about 1500 to us. I assume that was intended to support poorer countries garrisons (such as Mongolia), thus it was a political move - but on the other hand - if they lack some vests It's risky to be so generous...

[Flagg]

Lawmakers Keep Up Fight Against 2005 Base Closures
Virginian-Pilot (WASHINGTON MAR. 26)
Lawmakers launched a new attempt Thursday to derail plans for additional base closings in 2005, challenging Pentagon claims that the military has too many facilities and arguing that it may need more in the future. Republicans and Democrats on the House Armed Services Committee questioned the military establishment's plans for evaluating bases and expressed worries about the power of the bipartisan commission that will decide which facilities should close. They also said the estimated $15 billion needed to complete environmental cleanups and to relocate troops and equipment from bases to be shuttered could be spent better to pursue terrorists or trim the burgeoning federal budget deficit. "We can't afford to make mistakes," said Rep. Solomon Ortiz, (D Texas), ranking member of the military readiness subcommittee.

I think part of the blame can be placed on the elected representatives.

They certainly TALK like they support and care for the troops......but all too often you read stories like the one I've listed above.

If you read "between the lines" these elected officials only care about one thing....getting re-elected...

To be cold and heartless......these elected officials have no incentive to save the butts of their serving constituants.

But they certainly are incentivised to keep open bases that are deemed by the military to be unneccessary...to keep money flowing in their districts...at the expense of "minor" issues like body armour.....completely counterproductive to the military's needs.

The same goes for big ticket gold plated programs like the F22.....hundreds of Congressional districts benefit from the manufacturing jobs that result from pork-barrel projects...everyone gets a piece of the action.

There is NO incetive to push body armour......it's a tiny expense in a huge budget....and the only elected officials likely to care are the mere handful whose districts the vests are manufactured in.

[cqbrdy]

i just emailed blackhawk to see if they could donate some tac. slings for my plt. right now (we're on a homeland defense mission) cause our parent unit just got shipped across the pond and said, if we have the ability to buy it ourselves, do it now.
so im gonna buy a level4 vest or get a ceramic one and a couple of tac. slings in case they get "aquired" over there.

[HELEX]

Agreed. XM-8 should be put off. M-4's and M-16A4's work fine enough.

AR-15 was developed as a Sporting Rifle an doesnt work under battlefield conditions. The M4 is still far away from beeing perfect or reliable. If you havent a rifle that fires if you need it, a new Body armor is completely useless.... :roll:

[cqbrdy]

:|
the xm8 shoots fine from what i read, being in the army myself.
i also read that most ar15's tried to get the contract to be m4's,
just like how beretta got the m9 contract and not sig.

[ibstolidude]

Agreed. XM-8 should be put off. M-4's and M-16A4's work fine enough.

AR-15 was developed as a Sporting Rifle an doesnt work under battlefield conditions. The M4 is still far away from beeing perfect or reliable. If you havent a rifle that fires if you need it, a new Body armor is completely useless.... :roll:
Oddly the extreme vast majority of M4 regular users on this site have few complaints.

Ask around.

[cqbrdy]

i actually read that for some op.s in afghanistan
they didnt like the m4 cause it couldnt reach out and touch someone
at great lengths, but, then again, its not made for that anyway.
but there hasnt been any comments contrary to that.

[MEGR]

That good 'ol Commanche money woulda done a good thing for this body armour prob. Too bad its all gone.

[cqbrdy]

Commanche money

whats that? :|

[MEGR]

It is the 30 or so billion dollars they spent on the Commanche stealth helicopter.. I'm not sure if it was exactly that much, but it was alot of freaking money spent on that chopper. I'm sure they had there reasons for cancelling it though.

[cqbrdy]

o yeah that stupid thing.
they should start using some of "our new oil" in iraq
to buy equipment for our soldiers.

[sethen]

First ley me say its disgusting they way that the Body Armor Issue has has been politicized here in the U.S. ! Its been set up as to where it seems that if the 300 billion isn't approve there will be no new armor!!!!

Second I dont know for sure but I have been told the PASGT is only N.I.J level II and will not even stop 9mm fire! Is this true? If the PASGT is NIJ level III and can stop 9mm fitre it is the same as the basic interceptor vest without the plates. My solution to the problem would be to buy plate holders to hold the armor plates and wear it over the PASGT thus giving the same level protection provided that the PASGT is NIJ level III and not NIJ level II!

[ibstolidude]

First ley me say its disgusting they way that the Body Armor Issue has has been politicized here in the U.S. ! Its been set up as to where it seems that if the 300 billion isn't approve there will be no new armor!!!!

Second I dont know for sure but I have been told the PASGT is only N.I.J level II and will not even stop 9mm fire! Is this true? If the PASGT is NIJ level III and can stop 9mm fitre it is the same as the basic interceptor vest without the plates. My solution to the problem would be to buy plate holders to hold the armor plates and wear it over the PASGT thus giving the same level protection provided that the PASGT is NIJ level III and not NIJ level II!

Never wore any of these have you?

[sethen]

First ley me say its disgusting they way that the Body Armor Issue has has been politicized here in the U.S. ! Its been set up as to where it seems that if the 300 billion isn't approve there will be no new armor!!!!

Second I dont know for sure but I have been told the PASGT is only N.I.J level II and will not even stop 9mm fire! Is this true? If the PASGT is NIJ level III and can stop 9mm fitre it is the same as the basic interceptor vest without the plates. My solution to the problem would be to buy plate holders to hold the armor plates and wear it over the PASGT thus giving the same level protection provided that the PASGT is NIJ level III and not NIJ level II!

Never wore any of these have you?

I was in the U.S. Army 2001-2004, just got out! :D We were issued the PASGT and I wore it on force protection duty after 9/11 and for a deployment to Kuwait/Iraq. I didn't have much confidence in the PASGT because I knew the Ak round (7.62x39) would penetrate it as well as IED'S! :(
So during the deployment I wore the PASGT, when I returned home I learned about the plates and the plate carrier systems. Blackhawk definately have the best plate carriers!!!!! For those who would use my inprovised solution I suggest BH Ind. gear and the plates, PASGT vest and the interceptor can be found at
http://www.ironwolfent.com as well as at http://www.ebay.com

BTW, I just found out the PASGT vest is NIJ level II-a!

I hope I can be of some help to people deploying so feel free to ask any relative question. I wish I had a descent N.C.O that would have done the same for me!

[ibstolidude]

[quote=ibstolidude]

I was in the U.S. Army 2001-2004, just got out! :D We were issued the PASGT and I wore it on force protection duty after 9/11 and for a deployment to Kuwait/Iraq. I didn't have much confidence in the PASGT because I knew the Ak round (7.62x39) would penetrate it as well as IED'S! :(
So during the deployment I wore the PASGT, when I returned home I learned about the plates and the plate carrier systems. Blackhawk definately have the best plate carriers!!!!! For those who would use my inprovised solution I suggest BH Ind. gear and the plates, PASGT vest and the interceptor can be found at
http://www.ironwolfent.com as well as at http://www.ebay.com

BTW, I just found out the PASGT vest is NIJ level II-a!

I hope I can be of some help to people deploying so feel free to ask any relative question. I wish I had a descent N.C.O that would have done the same for me!

With home where you with in Iraq?

[sethen]

[quote=ibstolidude]

I was in the U.S. Army 2001-2004, just got out! :D We were issued the PASGT and I wore it on force protection duty after 9/11 and for a deployment to Kuwait/Iraq. I didn't have much confidence in the PASGT because I knew the Ak round (7.62x39) would penetrate it as well as IED'S! :(
So during the deployment I wore the PASGT, when I returned home I learned about the plates and the plate carrier systems. Blackhawk definately have the best plate carriers!!!!! For those who would use my inprovised solution I suggest BH Ind. gear and the plates, PASGT vest and the interceptor can be found at
http://www.ironwolfent.com as well as at http://www.ebay.com

BTW, I just found out the PASGT vest is NIJ level II-a!

I hope I can be of some help to people deploying so feel free to ask any relative question. I wish I had a descent N.C.O that would have done the same for me!

With home where you with in Iraq?

205th M.I. Brigade, 302nd M.I. BN