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cinoeye
07-16-2006, 04:57 PM
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/sl/thumb/c/cf/Draza_Mihajlovic.jpg/200px-Draza_Mihajlovic.jpg

Remembering General Draza Mihailovich
He Was
Truly
A Great Man

Dragoljub Draza Mihailovich
April 27, 1893 - July 17, 1946
The 60th Anniversary - July 2006


"Confidence thrives on honesty, on honor,
on the sacredness of obligations, on faithful
protection and unselfish performance.
Without them it cannot live."

Franklin Delano Roosevelt



Taking to the hills of Serbia with only a few handful of men to mount the first real resistance to Hitler's occupying forces in Europe was impressive. The guts it took and the resolve necessary for these men and their leader to initiate such a courageous act against the Nazi war machine that in 1941 appeared to be invincible seems almost inconceivable now. But it was real, and the magnificence of it has withstood the test of time to remain one of those pivotal moments in history when men stood up against monsters and said, 'No, you will not win.'

For many years now, I've told the story of General Draza Mihailovich and his chetnik freedom fighters, and my father has been telling it for much longer than that. It's a story that begs to be told. It's the story of a distinguished Serbian military man who leads the first real resistance in occupied Europe against Adolf Hitler during World War II and who for the duration of the war remained true to the fight for freedom for his people and his nation. It is the story of a man who was and remained a loyal ally of the great democracies despite the terrible betrayal that would be perpetrated against him. It is the story of a man who has been gone for 60 years now and for whom there is still no gravesite in his homeland.

This story came to an end on July 17, 1946 when after a phony communist trial in Belgrade, General Mihailovich was executed. No remains were to be found or properly buried so that there is a marker in Serbia signifying the existence of a man who lived and died for the honor and survival of the people and country he loved as well as for the success of the Allied cause he remained faithful to until the end of his life.

That day in July a new story began and has continued for 60 years. That is the story of making sure that the legacy of General Mihailovich is made known for what it truly was and that the historical record properly and honestly reflects that legacy. That is the story that remains to be told as we reach the 60th anniversary of the General's passing.

For these 60 years since his death, those who knew and understood the value of character exemplified by General Mihailovich in his actions against the enemy and in his faithfulness toward his people and his allies have kept his memory and legacy alive throughout the world. I've known many of those people personally through the years, and though many of them are gone now I'll not forget their passion and dedication to keeping this legacy alive. No one truly dies unless they are forgotten, and all of us who appreciate just how great a man General Mihailovich was and what made him a truly heroic figure in history must never allow him to be forgotten. Now that so many of those who lived that history and who fought alongside him are gone, it is up to us who have come after and who know their story to keep that legacy alive. We must. We owe it to them, and most of all, to him.

Each one of us who knows the history of World War Two and appreciates the role that General Mihailovich played in that history has our own thoughts about what made him great. Mounting the resistance to the Nazis and maintaining it despite the horrendous obstacles and pressures that both the Yugoslav communists and the allies burdened him with as he fought to remain true to the cause is paramount. However, for me, there is something else that stands out and has become an even stronger indicator of who he was and why he is deserving of the honor and recognition that is bestowed upon true heroes. It's that thing that makes me proud to be a member of the same nationality and ethnic background as he was.

General Mihailovich remained a faithful Ally. The Allies did not remain faithful to him. Over a period of time, as he struggled to maintain the fight for freedom in his homeland and at the same time remain a worthy and loyal ally of the democracies, he would be betrayed and abandoned by those who had promised assistance but who would leave him to the wolves that would ultimately take his life. Even as he watched the betrayal unfold and came to know that he had been abandoned by the Allies, he remained loyal to their cause, but not only that. He remained loyal to them.

Even after the betrayal was complete, and he was left on his own against the Nazis and the communists, General Mihailovich and his people would perform acts that were beyond honorable and that almost defy the imagination considering how self-less and forgiving those acts were.

Many allied personnel found themselves in Yugoslavia in 1944 after the Allied leaders had turned their backs on Draza and his people. General Mihailovich could have left them to the wolves in retaliation, but he did not. Instead, throughout 1944, he oversaw and enabled the evacuations of hundreds of Allied personnel, including liaison officers who had been assigned to monitor him and airmen who had been shot down by the Nazis and who had landed by fate on Serbian territory that was occupied by the enemy. All of the evacuations were successful. Not one man was captured. Not one man was left to his own fate and at the mercy of the enemy. All were fed, housed, protected, and evacuated to safety to return to their homes and families and to go on with their lives. They all lived to tell stories about the war and about the man who had saved them. Many of them would spend the rest of their lives dedicated to telling this story and fighting for official recognition of the man who had made their survival possible.

The fact that General Mihailovich had several options is what will never cease to amaze me, and what lies at the heart of his story are the honorable choices that he made. He could have turned his back, justifiably so, but he didn't. He did the honorable thing, that unselfish thing, that reflects a "sacredness of obligation" which only true men of character, men of greatness, carry within them no matter what the circumstances are. I have no idea what General Mihailovich's relationship with God was. I can only hope that when God saw all that the General did, that He was pleased.

Through the years I have had the privilege of coming to know some of those WWII veterans that are part of this great story, both Allied and Serbian, and to call them my friends. I never grew tired of their story. And now that so many are gone, it's up to us to keep telling that story. We must. That is our sacred obligation.

Progress has been made. Serbia has begun to slowly officially recognize the worthy legacy of the son whom she has shunned for too long. The Legion of Merit Medal awarded to General Mihailovich by the United States in 1948 finally made it home in 2005, where it belongs. Though the old organizations established years ago continue their remembrances and celebrations of his life, new organizations have been established in his memory, such as the Draza Mihailovich American Legion Post in Los Angeles, which is attracting young veterans who will carry on the legacy.

As the old guys pass on, and with them their memories, it's up to us survivors to continue maintaining the goal of securing for General Mihailovich the official recognition and place in history that he deserves. They did all the hard work. It's up to us to make sure that it was not in vain.

My father has never given up. For sixty years he has remained faithful to the cause that he fought for as a young man, a kid really, and has never wavered. His passion has been passed on to me, and I'm grateful for the opportunity to have gotten to know the Mihailovich story and to be part of carrying on his legacy. It's in my blood now. I can only hope that all of us who share that same passion will maintain the same faithfulness to the cause that our fathers and grandfathers did.

I know the day will come when General Mihailovich is given his proper due and his rightful place in history is permanently established with all the honor that he deserves. He was and remains a true soldier, an honorable leader, a faithful ally, and ultimately a decent human being who never turned his back on the sacredness of his obligations. That, by any measure, is what makes a man a great man.

It is this kind of greatness that makes General Mihailovich a man I wish I had known, and a man that can never be forgotten.


*********

Zeev
07-16-2006, 09:50 PM
he was a TRUE hero... I ve got a lot of respect for this man.. unfortunetely, he dies murdered by some bloody commies...:|

TR1
07-17-2006, 03:51 PM
Hmmm......I only have one question..why did he collaborate and attempt to ally himself with the Italina and German occupiers against Tito's partisans? I can understand they had disagreements, but going to the Italians and Germans, thats pretty low.

Royal
07-18-2006, 04:15 AM
Hmmm......I only have one question..why did he collaborate and attempt to ally himself with the Italina and German occupiers against Tito's partisans? .

When? I'm genuinely interested here.


I can understand they had disagreements

Disagreements? They had pitched battles.

Lt. James Anderson
07-18-2006, 04:50 AM
When? I'm genuinely interested here.

For every dead German soldier, 100 civilians were executed. That meant nothing to the partisans. Also the partisans were antiroyalists while the chetniks were anticommunist.

Royal
07-18-2006, 04:53 AM
For every dead German soldier, 100 civilians were executed.

And?

Where does that explain Mihailovich's alleged collaboration?

Tito's partizans killed germans, as did allied 'SF' on the ground in Yugoslavia. Were they collaborators too?

Lt. James Anderson
07-18-2006, 05:09 AM
You are right.

I don't think they were. I was referring more to the conflict between tito's partizans and the chetniks (which communists used to portray chetniks as collaborators).

There is more right here:
http://www.army.mil/cmh-pg/books/wwii/antiguer-ops/AG-BALKAN.HTM#yugo5

Andrija-Sumadinac
07-18-2006, 06:44 AM
Good post cinoeye, he was a great man. But I will also confirm that SOME Chetnik units did collaborate with the Germans. For example in the area of my grandparents village the local Chetnik commaneder named Misha Dragovic an old **** who went in to the villages taking food and sometimed raping the younger women. Once he got out of hand Draza sent the "crna troika" straight from Ravna Gora to kill him. When they were setting him up to be shot he told them to not shoot him but to take kill him with a knife. They took him out into a field above my grandparents village and cut him up slowly.

Andrija-Sumadinac
07-18-2006, 06:45 AM
Here's movie I found on google video about the Chetniks.
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=3393953832430002588&q=chetniks

Andrija-Sumadinac
07-18-2006, 06:54 AM
http://content.answers.com/main/content/wp/en/thumb/2/27/210px-Chetnik-officer.JPG
Average Chetnik soldier

TR1
07-18-2006, 02:55 PM
When? I'm genuinely interested here.


Disagreements? They had pitched battles.

I have read in a number of titles regarding the Yugoslav resistance and the Balkan fronts in general that later towrads the end of the war the Chetniks started regarding the communitsts as a larger threat than the germans and Italians, and attempted to negotiate arms transfers to help fight Tito's men. I am gonna go and find some net sources, give me some time.

cinoeye
07-18-2006, 03:26 PM
Hmmm......I only have one question..why did he collaborate and attempt to ally himself with the Italina and German occupiers against Tito's partisans? I can understand they had disagreements, but going to the Italians and Germans, thats pretty low.

In some ways the Axis victory remained a hollow one. For the writ of the Axis powers ran little beyond the towns and main roads. In the remote mountain regions, embryonic resistance forces soon emerged. But before the Germans could crush these nascent movements, their forces were redeployed from Yugoslavia to the east, in preparation for the now-imminent Operation Barbarossa.
Subsequently, those substantial Axis forces that did remain in the conquered Yugoslavia became locked in a protracted and appallingly brutal anti-partisan war, which raged across much of the territory. The resistance groups divided into two main movements - the Chetniks and the Partisans.
The first resistance group to emerge were the Chetniks - in Serbian the word means a detachment of men. These were nominally led by a former Yugoslav Army Colonel, named Dragoljub ('Draza') Mihailovic, who served the Yugoslav Royalist government in exile.
The original nucleus of these guerrilla bands were the ethnic Serb Yugoslav troops who had evaded Axis capture during the invasion, and then fled to the hills of Bosnia, Montenegro, and Serbia. Mihailovic established his first stronghold in the mountainous Ravna Gora area of western Serbia.
Soon Chetnik numbers were swelled by Serb peasants who had fled from Greater Croatia - non-Serbs were not allowed to join Chetnik bands. Many of these participants sought simply to defend their local village from the terrible brutalities of the Ustase. The latter were so brutal that they even drew protests from the Germans - not on humanitarian grounds, but because Ustase ethnic cleansing was fuelling the resistance movements.
The Chetniks were never a homogenous ideological movement, and many sub-groups paid no more than lip-service to Mihailovic's leadership. Some groups were implacably anti-German, whereas others saw the emerging rival resistance movement, that of the Partisans, as the greater threat. The elements that did unite the Chetniks, however, were their loyalty to the old Royalist regime, and their desire to ensure the survival of the Serbian population.
These disparate groups strove to protect the Serbs from what seemed to be the genocidal intent of the Croats and Germans, plus the hostility of Muslims (both Croatian and Serbian) and Communists. To achieve this goal, Chetniks strove to forge an ethnically-pure Greater Serbia by violently 'cleansing' these areas of Croats and Muslims.
On the other hand, Chetniks were often reluctant to attack Axis targets, in case this provoked brutal Axis retaliation against the local Serb population. In addition, Mihailovic wished to conserve his forces for the general uprising that would coincide with the envisaged Allied invasion of Axis-occupied Yugoslavia.
http://www.ravnagorachetniks.org/images/dcd/dcd13_L.jpg
http://www.ravnagorachetniks.org/images/dcd/dcd9_L.jpg
http://www.ravnagorachetniks.org/images/draza/draza1_L.jpg
http://www.ravnagorachetniks.org/images/draza/draza7_L.jpg

Andrija-Sumadinac
07-18-2006, 04:07 PM
Excellent stuff brate!
Next year I am hopeing to leave school early so I can make it to Serbia for the Sabor at Ravna Gora with my friends since I missed it this year.

zg18
07-18-2006, 04:59 PM
The Chetniks were never a homogenous ideological movement, and many sub-groups paid no more than lip-service to Mihailovic's leadership.

That is true,i read in one book about Četnik commander from eastern Bosnia,i don`t remember his name but i remember that he and his group allied with Dalmatian and Montenegrin Partisans in attack on Kladanj defended mostly by local Muslim Ustasha militia and Domobrani,he was killed by his felow Četniks who supported Mihajlović in 1944 because he had good relation and cooperation with Partisans.

Little Johnny
07-18-2006, 08:42 PM
Mihajlovic never collaborated with the Nazis. You are thinking of another Chetnik commander, Milan Nedic, who was not nearly as important. If I recall correctly, the Nazis even offered MIhajlovic his own SS division.

Handzar
07-19-2006, 11:36 PM
http://trial-mihailovic-1946.org/IMG/jpg/cetniksgroup.jpg

http://trial-mihailovic-1946.org/IMG/jpg/couple.jpg

http://www.vreme.com/g/images/400592_13-01.jpg

http://www.ushmm.org/photos/46/46712.jpg




http://forum.axishistory.com/files/djurisic__biroli.jpg

Andrija-Sumadinac
07-20-2006, 07:32 AM
"handzar" eh?:roll:

Welcome to the forum. :petting:

Zeev
07-20-2006, 11:51 AM
handzar? Does it means that youre some kind of nostalgic of this SS unit who slaughtered innocent serbians gypsies and jews civilians? I think that you can be proud to be an islamofacist... really....:roll:

Royal
07-20-2006, 12:08 PM
handzar? Does it means that youre some kind of nostalgic of this SS unit who slaughtered innocent serbians gypsies and jews civilians?

Or do you just like Ottoman Empire swords?

Fazla
07-20-2006, 12:13 PM
handzar? Does it means that youre some kind of nostalgic of this SS unit who slaughtered innocent serbians gypsies and jews civilians? I think that you can be proud to be an islamofacist... really....:roll:

Well it makes me wonder what sources you use to back up these statements.

First of all, it was a Waffen SS unit, I hope you realize the difference. And it didn't have the time to "slaughter" those civillians even if they wanted to as all of their time they were either outside Bosnia or active in anti-partisan operations. If you read George Lepre's "Himmler's division", even the Jewish Nazi-hunter Simon Wiesenthal had to admit that in the Balkans, the Handschar were clean compared to many of the other formations fighting in Bosnia including the Wehrmacht troops.

And, this legion is praised every year in france as they were the only Waffen SS unit that mutined against germans in France. If you knew more about their history you would know what is bull**** and what is not. But I wouldn't like to go off topic now.

P.S. Handzar just don't post in these threads unless someone starts stirring up some serious bull**** about the other sides. Personally I won't comment on chetniks, I hope this won't degenerate in some flame war.

cinoeye
07-20-2006, 12:22 PM
Handzar,Kosta Pecanac did cooperate with with Germans to fight communists. He was not in good stands with General Mihajlovich.
Djujic did cooperate with Italians, but at the begining he was fighting them. But what happend? Italians allowed UStashi to kill Serbs while Italians where bombing with airplanes, unless they stop attacks on Italians.
So DJujich chetniks stoped attacks on Italians.
Since then, Serbs where allowed to defend them selfs, Italians provided security food ans supplies for the civilians.
You should go and find Italian commander reports about it, and hos he was discussed with croatain actions.

You need to learn the difference between Yugoslav Army in the homeland, Serbian STate Guard, Gandarmes, Kosta Pecanac Units, STATE ZBOR, Pop Djujich Chetniks, Serbialn Volonteirs Corps.....than we can talk.
Ofcourse, for you very Serbian is a Chetnik.
Serch for OPERATION HALYARD
Probably the bigest behind the enemy line rescue in the US history- the rescue of 800 American airmen from German occupied Serbia by the Draza's chetniks.


Buy the way, If Draza was with Germans, why did he spent his war days fighting in the woods, and not in Belgrade in the office?

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/3/31/MIHAILOVIC.jpg
http://www.pogledi.co.yu/galerija/cetnici_vs_nemci/46V.jpg
http://www.pogledi.co.yu/slike/draza1V.jpg
http://www.pogledi.co.yu/galerija/airbridge/48V.jpg
http://www.pogledi.co.yu/galerija/airbridge/51V.jpg
http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e277/vlaya/Svashtara/americanserbian.jpg
http://www.pogledi.co.yu/galerija/airbridge/66V.jpg
http://www.pogledi.co.yu/galerija/airbridge/19V.jpg

Zeev
07-20-2006, 02:01 PM
Or do you just like Ottoman Empire swords?

everything is ok if it is the case, but I dont think that it is.... Im not naive.... anyway Im not surprised, there were a croatian member of this forum with the name of " crna legija" really sad when you know what kind of unit the crna legija was...

Royal
07-20-2006, 02:10 PM
Im not naive....

Neither am I, but the word has a 'double meaning' - he has a chance to change it or defend himself before I ban him p-)


there were a croatian member of this forum with the name of " crna legija" really sad when you know what kind of unit the crna legija was....

One of the reasons that I banned him.


either outside Bosnia or active in anti-partisan operations.

Hmm - outside Bosnia - Kosovo?

Anti-partizan operations - probably the dirtiest type of warfare the Heer and Waffen SS indulged in.


clean compared to many of the other formations fighting in Bosnia including the Wehrmacht troops.

Hardly a ringing endorsement.


this legion is praised every year in france as they were the only Waffen SS unit that mutined against germans in France.

Mutinied is a huge exageration - they deserted en masse. The French don't praise any SS unit - they do consider the Handschar were better than the Das Reich - again, hardly a ringing endorsement.

zealot
07-20-2006, 02:11 PM
form what I understand chetniks during second world war were not cohesive /united fighting force, there were
various partisan(non-communist) factions which stemed form the original royalist chetink guard. Some did cooperate with the nazis on on/off basis(it was more to do with strategy rather than sympathy towards the nazis), but as far as I know Mihajlovic, who was most powerfull and respected amongst chetnik commanders - didn't, as a matter of fact from what i remember chetnik commander Pecnac that cinoye mentioned was shot by fellow chetniks for treason on Mihajlovic's orders. But main differe between Chetnkis and Ustashis & Handzar divison, are that chetniks stemed form pre WWII royalist yougoslavian guard which in it's ranks had quite a few bosnian muslims(some held very high ranks - generals even) and some croats amongst them, some of these non-serbs stayed with them to oppose nazis at the beginning of war, but as chetniks got more radicalized (and were to commit some crimes aginst the non-serbs later) due to the despicable crimes of Ustahis(who had quite few bosnian muslims in their ranks) against serbs - majority of them left, whilst on the second note ustashis and handar division were formed/created, equipped and trained by the nazis, although ustashis were the ones responsible for most of the crimes commited against serbs,jews and gypsies. After all he wouldn't have been awarded two posthumous(I think?) medals, one form US, one form France if he was a nazi colaborator, I also recall reading somewhere that De Gaulle never visited Tiots Yugoslavia because of execution of Mihajlovic by titos partisnas. I also recall reading Churchill’s memoirs where he somewhat doubts his decision to side with/support Tito near the end of the WWII rather than then Mihajlovc royalists..

Fazla
07-20-2006, 02:21 PM
Hmm - outside Bosnia - Kosovo?
nope.
Being formed in spring 43, immediately sent to france, it got shipped back in bosnia in november 1943. Where it was used in anti-partisan operations and in late 1944 was sent on the eastern front.


Anti-partizan operations - probably the dirtiest type of warfare the Heer and Waffen SS indulged in.
I don't know if they were teh dirtiest or not, I was just commenting on the "jew" thing.


Hardly a ringing endorsement.
I never said they were clean, I just reported what he said, clean compared to others.



Mutinied is a huge exageration - they deserted en masse. The French don't praise any SS unit - they do consider the Handschar were better than the Das Reich - again, hardly a ringing endorsement.
They did mutiny, in Villefranche-de-Rouergue (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Villefranche-de-Rouergue) in Aveyron (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aveyron), France (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/France), where every year they receive a delegation from Croatia to commemorate the event.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Villefranche-de-Rouergue


Ustahis(who had quite few bosnian muslims in their ranks)

kinda difficult to believe as bosnian muslim clergy issued 3 fatwas that prohibited muslims to join ustashe and nazi ranks

if you were talking about Handzar, it was formed in spring 1943, I am underlying this because you say chetniks retaliated against utashes, which is true, but the retaliation against muslims wouldn't be justified untill Handzar was formed as a muslim division.

cinoeye
07-20-2006, 02:28 PM
form what I understand chetniks during second world war were not cohesive /united fighting force, there were
various partisan(non-communist) factions which stemed form the original royalist chetink guard. Some did cooperate with the nazis on on/off basis(it was more to do with strategy rather than sympathy towards the nazis), but as far as I know Mihajlovic, who was most powerfull and respected amongst chetnik commanders - didn't, as a matter of fact from what i remember chetnik commander Pecnac that cinoye mentioned was shot by fellow chetniks for treason on Mihajlovic's orders. But main differe between Chetnkis and Ustashis & Handzar divison, are that chetniks stemed form pre WWII royalist yougoslavian guard which in it's ranks had quite a few bosnian muslims(some held very high ranks - generals even) and some croats amongst them, some of these non-serbs stayed with them to oppose nazis at the beginning of war, but as chetniks got more radicalized (and were to commit some crimes aginst the non-serbs later) due to the despicable crimes of Ustahis(who had quite few bosnian muslims in their ranks) against serbs - majority of them left, whilst on the second note ustashis and handar division were formed/created, equipped and trained by the nazis, although ustashis were the ones responsible for most of the crimes commited against serbs,jews and gypsies. After all he wouldn't have been awarded two posthumous(I think?) medals, one form US, one form France if he was a nazi colaborator, I also recall reading somewhere that De Gaulle never visited Tiots Yugoslavia because of execution of Mihajlovic by titos partisnas. I also recall reading Churchill’s memoirs where he somewhat doubts his decision to side with/support Tito near the end of the WWII rather than then Mihajlovc royalists..
VEry nice and correct:)

Royal
07-20-2006, 02:49 PM
They did mutiny, in Villefranche-de-Rouergue (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Villefranche-de-Rouergue) in Aveyron (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aveyron), France (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/France), where every year they receive a delegation from Croatia to commemorate the event.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Villefranche-de-Rouergue

[SIZE=3][FONT=Times New Roman]

We're going to have to agree to differ on the scale of the mutiny.


if you were talking about Handzar, it was formed in spring 1943, I am underlying this because you say chetniks retaliated against utashes, which is true, but the retaliation against muslims wouldn't be justified untill Handzar was formed as a muslim division.


I'm well aware of how to spell it in latinic or cyrillic - I was using the German spelling - it being a German formation after all.

And I've not said anything about the conflict between the Četniks and the Ustaše - to use the correct spelling for you...

Fazla
07-20-2006, 02:57 PM
We're going to have to agree to differ on the scale of the mutiny.

sure


I'm well aware of how to spell it in latinic or cyrillic - I was using the German spelling - it being a German formation after all.

And I've not said anything about the conflict between the Četniks and the Ustaše - to use the correct spelling for you...

Royal, it was a response to zealot's post. I didn't add zealot bolded at the beginning of the quote, sorry.

zealot
07-20-2006, 02:59 PM
And I've not said anything about the conflict between the Četniks and the Ustaše - to use the correct spelling for you...

he was referring to my point re: Ustahis (who had quite few bosnian muslims in their ranks)

zealot
07-20-2006, 03:01 PM
@Russian1 Wtf???

edit: OK , I see, he contributed to this thread..

zealot
07-20-2006, 03:14 PM
@Fazla:

You are either living in denial or you are not familiar with the Balkan history - I have read from various impartial sources (i.e. different european historians without balkan ancestry or connections, not bias propaganda of respective ex-yugoslav nations/ethnicities) who have researched the region painstakingly/thoroughly and talked to ALL sides involved, there are people (mostly serbs/some still live I presume) that can name names of muslims/bosniaks who were Ustashi officers predominantly in Bosnia AFAIK

Fazla
07-20-2006, 03:19 PM
@Fazla:

You are either living in denial or you are not familiar with the Balkan history - I have read from various impartial sources (i.e. different european historians without balkan ancestry or connections, not bias propaganda of respective ex-yugoslav nations/ethnicities) who have researched the region painstakingly/thoroughly and talked to ALL sides involved, there are people (mostly serbs/some still live I presume) that can name names of muslims/bosniaks who were Ustashi officers predominantly in Bosnia AFAIK
I'd be the last name to dispute that, I was talking about the "quite few = meaning many" that from my readings I am sure was not so as even bosniaks were fired from their positions because they openly criticized ustashe policy against serbs.

But I am always glad to hear other sources so be free to post those names, the lists, whatever because it always interested me to know the numbers of bosniaks in the ustashes.

zealot
07-20-2006, 03:32 PM
^ fair enough, i haven't got the names/numbers etc as i am referring to something I have been reading abt. some time ago, but from what I gather this number was quite considerable ..

zg18
07-21-2006, 04:57 AM
whatever because it always interested me to know the numbers of bosniaks in the ustashes[/B].

I don`t know real numbers but in Ustashka vojnica Bosnians Muslims maked up 30% of soldiers,little less in Domobrani,on the other hand there was a lot Muslims in Partisans,i don`t want to flame but Muslim Ustashe did massacred Serb population of Bosnia and Chetniks massacred Bosnian Muslims population,NDH had many supporters from Bosnian Muslims.

zg18
07-21-2006, 05:04 AM
I'd be the last name to dispute that, I was talking about the "quite few = meaning many" that from my readings I am sure was not so as even bosniaks were fired from their positions because they openly criticized ustashe policy against serbs.


Yes that is true i heard for these 12 Muslim clerics from Banja Luka who demanded that Ustashe to stop kill Serbs,and even remeber that they are specialy critized thier own brothers who joined Ustashe in killing Serbs calling them "muslimanski ološ" (muslim scum),and i read in one book about Muslim movement in Sarajevo who openly call Muslims to rebelion agaist NDH these men later joined Partisans,i can only say that Bosnian Muslims can be proud of these fine mans,i`m just sorry that we didn`t have more people like them
at that time.

Fazla
07-21-2006, 07:53 AM
I don`t know real numbers but in Ustashka vojnica Bosnians Muslims maked up 30% of soldiers,little less in Domobrani,on the other hand there was a lot Muslims in Partisans,i don`t want to flame but Muslim Ustashe did massacred Serb population of Bosnia and Chetniks massacred Bosnian Muslims population,NDH had many supporters from Bosnian Muslims.

zg, I have no reasons to not believe you, as I said I know there were bosniaks supporting actively NDH,but do you have any link, any source that says 30% of ustashe were bosniaks? as I said I have no reasons to not believe you but I'd like to see the source


i can only say that Bosnian Muslims can be proud of these fine mans,i`m just sorry that we didn`t have more people like them

oh we did we did don't worry :)

DeltaWhisky58
07-21-2006, 09:51 AM
I'm sick of this. :bash: