One of the reasons Syria is pissed at Israel..

[Kenshin]

...they lost a lot of birds way back..


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VXO8NCXwpk8

excuse if RMM

[Tiger75]

Smashed 'em

[socom6]

Yeah remembered that as a 13 year old! Back then we heavily relied on TIME and Newsweek to know about the many wars in the world and they had big stories about the air clash with the Israelis and Syrians. I 82 the F15 and F16 were extremely HOT HOT aircraft and seeing them perform so well in action was a wonder to behold on international news clips.

[Onslaught]

They still are to this day.

[Nebelwerfer.]

Daaaaaaaamn....83 lost aircrafts...

[-Max2-]

Nice vid. :)

[liberation]

Why Syrians sent inferior MIG-21/23 aircraft up against vastly better F-15/16's is unknown. MIG-21's have only only half the turn radius of an F-16 at sea level and the Flogger is even less agile. The Syrian pilots were poorly trained and motivated and must have known they were on the back foot from the beginning of the hostilities.

I suppose the only real option for Syria is for them to use Iranian funding and purchase top of the line Russian fighter's and missiles flown by Pakistani mercenary pilots.

The Pakistani's shot down three Israeli aircraft during the six day war without taking any casualties themselves.

If anyone can compete with the Israeli fighter pilots when all things are equal it is the Pakistani's.

[perdurabo]

MiG23ML/MF wasn't so bad it could pull up to 5.5g, 21 where also good in their time, but their time ended in 70ties.

[Bert]

Why Syrians sent inferior MIG-21/23 aircraft up against vastly better F-15/16's is unknown. MIG-21's have only only half the turn radius of an F-16 at sea level and the Flogger is even less agile. The Syrian pilots were poorly trained and motivated and must have known they were on the back foot from the beginning of the hostilities.

I suppose the only real option for Syria is for them to use Iranian funding and purchase top of the line Russian fighter's and missiles flown by Pakistani mercenary pilots.

The Pakistani's shot down three Israeli aircraft during the six day war without taking any casualties themselves.

If anyone can compete with the Israeli fighter pilots when all things are equal it is the Pakistani's.
Syria is buying that freakshow Iranian reverse-engineered F-5 thing. Aazarakakrakzshrazk or something. I don't think it'll make much difference.

[liberation]

The Flogger doesn't have fly by wire control systems and turns like a Grey hound bus. It's canopy is so poorly designed that it has practically no forward visual capacity whatsoever.

I wonder why the Syrians kept deploying the MIG's in combat when it was patently clear that the Israeli's were going to blast them out of the sky?

[TR1]

Syrian Mi-24 operation in the 1982 war were succesfull though.

[TR1]

The Flogger doesn't have fly by wire control systems and turns like a Grey hound bus. It's canopy is so poorly designed that it has practically no forward visual capacity whatsoever.

I wonder why the Syrians kept deploying the MIG's in combat when it was patently clear that the Israeli's were going to blast them out of the sky?
well first of all the Flogger was not a bad match against the F-16 at longer ranges...pilto quality and effective ground controll is neccesary to fight succesfully and the Syrian ground net was either destoyed or jammed....also I have read some Syrian reports in which they claim to have downed a number of Isareli aircraft..not a lot, but several....
of course the Israeli's deny this...but I find it hard to trust the Israeli propoganda machine any more than the Syrian one.

[liberation]

From what I have read Syria got Whacked 84-0 in the air. The Syrians/Lebanese muslim militia claimed they downed 19 Israeli aircraft using SAM's and AAA, but most of those 'aircraft' were RPV's.

Not only were the MIG's avionics and missiles inferior to the Israeli's, their pilots were trained to eastern bloc standards. When the Israeli AF and the PVO piloted MIG-21's clashed in 1970, the Soviet's went down 5-0.

[TR1]

When the Israeli AF and the PVO piloted MIG-21's clashed in 1970, the Soviet's went down 5-0.

put your Israeli propganda elsewhere.
The Syrian pilots were crap (for the most part, they had some decent pilots who shot down Israeli aircraft of the modern generation) compared to frontline Warsaw Pact pilots.

[perdurabo]

Not only were the MIG's avionics and missiles inferior to the Israeli's, their pilots were trained to eastern bloc standards. When the Israeli AF and the PVO piloted MIG-21's clashed in 1970, the Soviet's went down 5-0.
dude, you understand that syrians had old equipment and their pilots and military was crap? if israelis would meet with russians on mig-29 and su-27 with full support of ground radars net, air controlers etc, this ratio would be much diffrent!

[liberation]

Prove to me that Israeli F-4 Phantom's and Mirage III's did not shoot down 5 PVO flown MIG-21 Fishbed fighters in 1970 without suffering any losses themselves.

This is a fact, not propaganda.

[TR1]

dude, you understand that syrians had old equipment and their pilots and military was crap? if israelis would meet with russians on mig-29 and su-27 with full support of ground radars net, air controlers etc, this ratio would be much diffrent!

dude, if they met polish frontline pilots with similar planes (i.e. MiG-29, or even with older MiG-23), and the ground net was functioning well, the result would probably have been diffirent.

[JVeld]

What kind of aircrafts do the Syrian AF operates now in days ?

[liberation]

A dozen or so MIG-29A /UB Fulcrums and a hotpotch of obsolescent aircraft like the MIG-23.

[TR1]

A dozen or so MIG-29A /UB Fulcrums and a hotpotch of obsolescent aircraft like the MIG-23.
MiG-23 is not neccesarily a bad aircraft. especially if we are talking about the MLD verions, they were equipped with much of the tech latar intergrated into the MiG-29 and Su-27 families.

and its not obsolescent at all when considering the aircraft other nations in the area (excluding Israel) operate.

[TR1]

the Syrian AF:

Ground Attack/Figheter Bomber:
20 or so Su-24.
60 MiG-23BN
50 Su-22
they apparently ordered 14 MiG-29SMT

Fighter:
approx. 40 MiG-29A
30 MiG-25
107 MiG-23
102 MiG-21

Recce:
8 MiG-25
40 MiG-21

36 Mi-25
40 SA-342
130 Mi-8/17

[liberation]

The MIG-23 is more difficult to maintain than an F-14 Tomcat according to Egyptian technicians yet 2 Libyan Floggers were shot down by the relatively cumbersome F-14 in 1989. A maintenance intensive yet inferior aircraft.

Two Syrian MIG-29 A Fulcrums were shot down by the Israeli airforce September 14 2004 over the city of Latakia while attempting to drive off two Israeli fighters sent to interdict Iranian armaments being smuggled into Lebanon.

Pilots Maj. Arshad Midhat Mubarak and Capt. Ahmad Al Khatib were shot down respectively by a Python 4 and a AIM-9M Sidewinder.

Both ejected safely.

[TR1]

The MIG-23 is more difficult to maintain than an F-14 Tomcat according to Egyptian technicians yet 2 Libyan Floggers were shot down by the relatively cumbersome F-14 in 1989. A maintenance intensive yet inferior aircraft.

Two Syrian MIG-29 A Fulcrums were shot down by the Israeli airforce September 14 over the city of Latakia while attempting to drive off two Israeli fighters sent to interdict Iranian armaments being smuggled into Lebanon.

Pilots Maj. Arshad Midhat Mubarak and Capt. Ahmad Al Khatib were shot down respectively by a Python 4 and a AIM-9M Sidewinder.

Both ejected safely.

well I guess the Egyptians just suck at maintaning aircraft because I have talked to an actual MiG-23 pilot and he remembers that the MiG-23 was a very robust and maintainance easy aircraft ( you also have to keep in mind that the Soviet and Western protocols for aircraft maintainance were worlds apart) . and regarding the Lybian floggers, well congratulations, even the Egyptians managed to shoot down some Lybian MiG-23 (while flying MiG-21) during their border war, so I should hope that two USN Tomcats would be able to take out a pair of Floggers flown by Lybians.

[Kvakva]

You should compare pilots first (thei skill, training etc.).
Otherwise i can pilot the super omega delta plane and be shot down by a huge sling shot p-)

[Victrix]

why do you guys even argue....you win wars not with who got the better technology but with knowledge/skill and moral, clearly IAF was better...

threads like these always end up with pro-russian supporters backing up soviet technology...

[TR1]

threads like these always end up with pro-russian supporters backing up soviet technology...

and the pro-Americans and pro-Israelis backing up western technology. whats your point?

[Victrix]

and the pro-Americans and pro-Israelis backing up western technology. whats your point?

ya it works both ways...

also you might consider changing your name to "Thelebanese1"

нашел кого поддерживать :cantbeli:

[Kvakva]

ya it works both ways...

also you might consider changing your name to "Thelebanese1"

нашел кого поддерживать :cantbeli:

Support? Where do you see support?!
Ты прикидываешься или просто сморозил ?

[Isbjoern]

There have been written tons of books and reports on why Arab armed forces never seem to win any wars, regardless of the equipment they are/were using. Their main problem seems to be that higher ranking officers keep vital knowledge and knowhow to themselves, as a mean to keep their superiority over their soldiers.
While Western, Israeli, and for all I know, former East-block soldiers, got every information they need to perform on a highest possible level, Arab soldiers haven't got the information and training to make the right decisions. Hence, they make bad decisions, or none at all.
As far as I know this is a cultural issue, not political, nor religious. the Iranian armed forces are not known to have the same problems.
So my conclusion: It is wrong to use any Arab-Israeli conflict as a proof of Russian weapons being of lower standard than US weapons. It is the men who operates them, and their training, which makes the difference.

[TR1]

Support? Where do you see support?!
Ты прикидываешься или просто сморозил ? da on durak kokoita!!!
Yeah, damn I support Lebanon...hoping that the country doesn't get set back another twenty years and many innocents die is some serious support. I sure as hell would rather have a Lebanese flag on my avatar than an Israeli one.

[Kenshin]

put your Israeli propganda elsewhere.
The Syrian pilots were crap (for the most part, they had some decent pilots who shot down Israeli aircraft of the modern generation) compared to frontline Warsaw Pact pilots.

Hmm when facts are againts you its "Propaganda" eh? I seem to remember thats the same tone that came out of Baghdad bob during thunder run on Iraq..


Fact remains.. F-16's/15's pwnes MIG's historically.

[Kvakva]

Hmm when facts are againts you its "Propaganda" eh? I seem to remember thats the same tone that came out of Baghdad bob during thunder run on Iraq..


Fact remains.. F-16's/15's pwnes MIG's historically.

Specially for you ...

You should compare pilots first (thei skill, training etc.).
Otherwise i can pilot the super omega delta plane and be shot down by a huge sling shot


AS in every other comparison - dont forget the crew.

[TALOS]

Specially for you ...


AS in every other comparison - dont forget the crew.
Point everyone seems to be missing is this, It was an airbattle between syria and Israel and Israel won, end of story, you can all bicker about whether the Israelis would beat polish or vice versa but that isnt the point being made. The Israelis and their equipment were at the time the best in the region and may very well be today. The losing side always says "yeah but..." Fact is Syria lost.

[Shades of Grey]

^^^ The truth. Why does every thread have to have some bull**** tech debate. Its been done to death, who cares. At the end of the day i doubt anyone here has piloted both so i wouldent bother.

[Adax]

Hey guys - what do you think about MiG-25 ???
I've read that it is good and FAST(3 Mach max speed) aircraft.
In 1990 an Iraqi MiG-25 shot down F/A-18C in Desert Storm.
From the source that Russian1 gave we can see that Syrians have 30 MiG-25, so IAF should look out at these aircraft(I am sure that they can kick ass western planes).

BTW: For me Mig-25 is one of the beautiest soviet aircraft. Hehe it looks like F-15 :D

[HazF16]

the IAF viper driver stepped on the seat lol

[perdurabo]

Point everyone seems to be missing is this, It was an airbattle between syria and Israel and Israel won, end of story, you can all bicker about whether the Israelis would beat polish or vice versa but that isnt the point being made. The Israelis and their equipment were at the time the best in the region and may very well be today. The losing side always says "yeah but..." Fact is Syria lost.
no someone made point that soviet aircrafts where ****ty witch isn't true, until 90ties soviet equipment was usually very advenced, but then system crashed thats why they where in technological tail and look now Russians almoust filled this gap, newest Su are realy good planes! Syrians lost because they have crapy military not because their planes suck -they suck now but in 70ties and 80ties situation was diffrent.

[siberian tiger]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PQyJzj05fYY&mode=related&search=IAF

[Exer]

dude, you understand that syrians had old equipment and their pilots and military was crap? if israelis would meet with russians on mig-29 and su-27 with full support of ground radars net, air controlers etc, this ratio would be much diffrent!

Then again, same thing if the other way around.

[tanks_alot]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PQyJzj05fYY&mode=related&search=IAF


Huh...? electronic arts, all rights reserved....? it's a computer game?

[siberian tiger]

Huh...? electronic arts, all rights reserved....? it's a computer game?

Yes... hope now the Hezbolla don`t declare holy war to Microsoft... ;)

[TR1]

Hey guys - what do you think about MiG-25 ???
I've read that it is good and FAST(3 Mach max speed) aircraft.
In 1990 an Iraqi MiG-25 shot down F/A-18C in Desert Storm.
From the source that Russian1 gave we can see that Syrians have 30 MiG-25, so IAF should look out at these aircraft(I am sure that they can kick ass western planes).

BTW: For me Mig-25 is one of the beautiest soviet aircraft. Hehe it looks like F-15 :D

I read somewhere that Syria claims to have shot down an Israeli plane with a MiG-25..or was it just a MiG-23 kill...I don't remember, gotta look it up. Regarding the MiG-25, keep in mind it heavily utilizes ground controll nets, so if Israel blinds those, they are going to find the going difficult. Regarding performance, Israel has nothing to match it (of course at dogfighting the MiG_25 is terrible), so I doubt we will see MiG-25 pilots engaging Israeli planes unless the position is very advantagous..otherwise they can just exit the "battleground".

[TheArmenian]

If the Syrian AF was equipped with F-15s and F-16s and the IDF had Mig-21s and 23s the outcome of the battle would still have been the same: 82 Syrian planes shot down for no Israeli losses.

Apart from the better leadership, superior training and motivation of the Israeli pilots and the ability of the groundcrews to put more airplanes in the air, the determining factor was the tactics used :

The Syrians were just scrambling their fighters to cover thier SAM missiles and troops without proper planning. From the moment they took off, their activities were being monitored by the Hawkeyes. The Israeli operators were selecting where and which Syrian formation to engage.

The IDF had full knowledge of the tactical situation while the Syrians had a vague idea. In addition the Syrians tought that their SAM missiles would still be as effective as in the 1973 war...

The Syrian AF had no chance. They were beat even before they took off.

BTW, the Israelis did loose an F-4 Phantom later on in the 1982 conflict. It was shot down by a SA-6 missile fired from the Syrian territory. That was the only airplane lost by thye IDF in that war (apart from UAVs).