Can Israel Win?

[Zarathustra]

http://www.nypost.com/postopinion/opedcolumnists/can_israel_win__opedcolumnists_ralph_peters.htm


July 22, 2006 -- ISRAEL is losing this war. For a lifelong Israel supporter, that's a painful thing to write. But it's true. And the situation's worsening each day.
A U.S. government official put it to me this way: "Israel's got the clock, but Hezbollah's got the time." The sands of the hourglass favor the terrorists - every day they hold out and drop more rockets on Israel, Hezbollah scores a propaganda win.

All Hezbollah has to do to achieve victory is not to lose completely. But for Israel to emerge the acknowledged winner, it has to shatter Hezbollah. Yet Israeli miscalculations have left Hezbollah alive and kicking.

Israel has to pull itself together now, to send in ground troops in sufficient numbers, with fierce resolve to do what must be done: Root out Hezbollah fighters and kill them. This means Israel will suffer painful casualties - more today than if the Israeli Defense Force had gone in full blast at this fight's beginning.

The situation is grave. A perceived Hezbollah win will be a massive victory for terror, as well as a triumph for Iran and Syria. And everybody loves a winner - especially in the Middle East, where Arabs and Persians have been losing so long.

Israel can't afford a Hezbollah win. America can't afford it. Civilization can't afford it. Yet it just might happen.

Israel tried to make war halfway, and only made a mess. Let's review where the situation stands:

* By trying to spare Israeli lives through the use of airpower and long-range artillery fire instead of ground troops, the IDF played into Hezbollah's hands. The terrorists could claim that Israel feared them. Meanwhile, Israeli targeting proved shockingly sloppy, failing to ravage Hezbollah, while hitting civilians - to the international media's delight.

* The IDF is readying a reinforced brigade of armor and 3,000 to 5,000 troops for a "limited incursion" into southern Lebanon. Won't work. Not enough troops. And Hezbollah's had time to get locked and loaded. This is going to be messy - any half-hearted Israeli effort will fall short.

* Famed for its penetration, Israeli intelligence failed this time. It didn't detect the new weapons Iran and Syria had provided to Hezbollah, from anti-ship missiles to longer-range rockets. And, after years of spying, it couldn't find Hezbollah.

This should set off global alarm bells: If Hezbollah can hide rockets, Iran can hide nukes.

* The media sided heavily with Hezbollah (surprise, surprise). Rocket attacks on Israel were reported clinically, but IDF strikes on Lebanon have been milked for every last drop of emotion. We hear about broken glass in Haifa - and bleeding babies in Beirut.

* Washington rejoiced when several Arab governments criticized Hezbollah for its actions. But the Arab street, Shia and Sunni, has coalesced behind Hezbollah. Saudi and Egyptian government statements are worth about as much as a greeting card from Marie Antoinette on New Year's Day, 1789.

* Syria and Iran are getting a free ride. Hezbollah fights and dies, Damascus and Tehran collect the dividends.

* Israel looks irresolute and incapable - encouraging its enemies.

* The "world community" wants a cease-fire - which would only benefit the terrorists. Hezbollah would claim (accurately) that it had withstood Israel's assault. Couldn't get a better terrorist recruiting advertisement.

* A cease-fire would be under U.N. auspices. Gee, thanks. No U.N. force would protect Israel's interests, but plenty of U.N. contingents would cooperate with or turn a blind eye to the terrorists. Think Russia's an honest broker? Ask its Jews who fled to Israel. Would French troops protect Israeli interests? Ask the Jews Vichy bureaucrats packed off to the death camps. (The French are more anti-Semitic than the Germans - just less efficient.)

* One bright spot: The Bush administration continues to resist international attempts to bully Israel into a premature cease-fire. Secretary of State Condoleezza Rice is flying off to the big falafel stand as a token gesture, not to interfere with Israel's self-defense.

But the clock's ticking. Washington can only buy Israel so much time.

* Every rocket that lands in Israel is a propaganda victory for Hezbollah. After 1,000-plus Israeli air-strikes, the rockets keep falling, and Israel looks impotent. The price of sparing Israeli infantrymen has been the elevation of Hezbollah to heroic status through the Muslim world.

* The Olmert government tried to wage war on the cheap. Such efforts always raise the cost in the end. Olmert resembles President Bill Clinton - willing to lob bombs from a distance, but unwilling to accept that war means friendly casualties.

* Israel needs to grasp the power of the global media. Long proud of going its own way in the face of genocidal anti-Semitism, Israel now has to recognize that the media can overturn the verdict of the battlefield. Even if Israel pulls off a last-minute win on the ground, the anti-Israel propaganda machine has been given so big a head-start that Hezbollah still may be portrayed as the victor.

The situation is grim. Israel looks more desperate every day, while Hezbollah appears more defiant.

This is ultimately about far more than a buffer zone in southern Lebanon. In the long run, it's about Israel's survival. And about preventing the rise of a nuclear Iran and the strengthening of the rogue regime in Syria. It's also about the future of Lebanon - everybody's victim.

The mess Israel has made of its opportunity to smack down Hezbollah should be a wake-up call to the country's leadership. The IDF looks like a pathetic shadow of the bold military that Ariel Sharon led into Egypt three decades ago. The IDF's intelligence, targeting and planning were all deficient. Technology failed to vanquish flesh and blood. The myth of the IDF's invincibility just shattered.

If Israel can't turn this situation around quickly, the failure will be a turning point in its history. And not for the better.

Ralph Peters' new book is "Never Quit the Fight."

[dangerclose]

Israel needs to agree to a ceasefire with hezbalooh like the U.S. needs one with al qaeda.

Israel's response has been disproportionate in that they haven't reacted strong enough.

[Pandy]

Israel needs to agree to a ceasefire with hezbalooh like the U.S. needs one with al qaeda.

Israel's response has been disproportionate in that they haven't reacted strong enough.

I believe if you hurt me, I'll hurt you back... I think Israel hasn't done enough against Hezbollah, and needs to destory the terrorist organization. Anyone who says a ceasefire is needed supports hezbollah.

[Eddy]

Anyone who says a ceasefire is needed supports hezbollah.

Oh shut the **** up.

[Pandy]

Oh shut the **** up.

Free Speech bro, unless you don't support free speech.

[tanks_alot]

That guy is a moron, first of all the example he decided to give of the former glory of the IDF, yom kipur war..... seriously the brave men Ariel Sharon was leading decades ago were a few days after suffering the most catastrophic defeat in Israel's history and they still managed to buckle up and kick ass so how about relaxing a bit...
i don't think the Egoz soldier that was killed after retrieving his fallen company commander's body under fire and than returning to take his rifle was soft and the last days of fighting are full of such examples.

now i seriously had enough with all of those apocalyptic and hysteric coulmnists and journalists.
Hezbollah are following whats going on in Israel all the time, so what will they see now?

they will see civilians not panicking under constant shelling, giving the goverment and the army almost unprecedented support, telling the goverment to take their time dealing with Hezbollah.

they will see the israeli economy still stable and an army motivated to fight.

Israel is not planing to destroy Hezbollah because it is part of Lebanon, the purpose of this operation is to weaken Hezbollah, remove it's presence from the border and having an international force with WAY more teeth than UNIFIL or the lebanese army at the border.

this guy dosn't learn from history, trying to chase Hezbollah through out all of Lebanon might eventually succeed but it will be like fighting a hydra, diffrent organizations will sprout instead.

if pushed too far Israel will unite as it always has, the IDF learns by having it's blood spilled but adjusts itself to new realties quickly enough.

so, to MR Ralph Peters i say: relax, Israel strong!!!111 p-)

[Zarathustra]

Oh shut the **** up.

No flaming please.

[Eddy]

Free Speech bro, unless you don't support free speech.

Your 'if youre not on my side you're evil and eat babies' I dont support.

[Eddy]

No flaming please.

Dude I cant take that crap.

[Kaplanr]

We already got Al Jazeera and DEBKA, now the NY Post? Don't know what Peter's pedigree is, but it must be nice to be the surrogate Israeli General Staff all the way in NYC.

"winning", if there is such an animal, means the return of the two soldiers, and the reduction/elimination of Hizbulloh as an unpredictable armed presence on the Israeli border. If it means a NATO or EU force on the border, doesn't matter.

The other tangible "victory" is that Israel has spelled out pretty clearly that the previous rules governing the conflict have changed, and that we're very likely to respond to any provocation with "disprpportional" force.

[Firetxmi]

Your 'if youre not on my side you're evil and eat babies' I dont support.

Exactly! Thanks for saying it before I did.

[One?]

The first day israel said they are going to crush and erase hezbollah of the map. Now they want the 2 soldeirs and want a NATO force on the fence. They backed down pretty fast.

[LaoSexMachine]

If winning means knocking out Hezballah's military capability? Yes. Hezballah is too much of a social orginization in S.Lebanon to be completely wiped out.

[Pandy]

Your 'if youre not on my side you're evil and eat babies' I dont support.

I didn't say that. I said;


Free Speech bro, unless you don't support free speech.

Where you get that from bro? That's not free speech. You do know what free speech is, right?


If winning means knocking out Hezballah's military capability? Yes. Hezballah is too much of a social orginization in S.Lebanon to be completely wiped out.

Once the military capability is destoryed, the social organization would be next, one thing at a time.

[Eddy]

Where you get that from bro? That's not free speech. You do know what free speech is, right?

Im french. I know more about free speech than you do right now 'bruh'.

[LaoSexMachine]

Im french. I know more about free speech than you do right now 'bruh'.

Oh rly? Do tell.

[Pandy]

Im french. I know more about free speech than you do right now 'bruh'.

Still doesn't answer my question.

Oh hell, I'll answer.


Freedom of speech is the concept of being able to speak freely without censorship.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Free_speech

[Eddy]

Still doesn't answer my question.

Question it as much as you want, I could care less. Its not like you know where it is anyway...

[LaoSexMachine]

Talk about the French arrogance.

[Pandy]

Question it as much as you want, I could care less. Its not like you know where it is anyway...

OhhHH...


I could care less.

So you don't care for freedom of speech huh? Then you shut the **** up, your not allowed to speak.

[DE_Six]

Im french. I know more about free speech than you do right now 'bruh'.

You also know more about being a complete douche bag.

I won't ask wether it's also related to your nationality out of respect for the decent people on this board who happen to be french.

[Macs.]

If both sides (especially the Hezbollah/Lebanon.) would obey the ceasfire, it would be the best thing for everyone involved.


Anyone who says a ceasefire is needed supports hezbollah.

Anyone who wears a red shirt supports TERRORISM AND COMMUNISM !

[Firetxmi]

Anyone who says a ceasefire is needed supports hezbollah.


Its that kind of black and white, with us or against us, thinking that gets people into sticky situations in our gray world.

If your logic is true then Condi Rice, Malaysia, Egypt, The U.N, and Pope Benedict all love and support Hezbollah. :roll:

[Avary]

If both sides (especially the Hezbollah/Lebanon.) would obey the ceasfire, it would be the best thing for everyone involved.



Anyone who wears a red shirt supports TERRORISM AND COMMUNISM !
Today I saw a news reporter. He wore a Che t-shirt.

[Pandy]

If both sides (especially the Hezbollah/Lebanon.) would obey the ceasfire, it would be the best thing for everyone involved.


Hezbollah doesn't give a ****. Israel wasn't doing a damn thing to em, and look at what they did.


Its that kind of black and white, with us or against us, thinking that gets people into sticky situations in our gray world.

If your logic is true then Condi Rice, Malaysia, Egypt, The U.N, and Pope Benedict all love and support Hezbollah. :roll:

You know what, as long as we win, it really doesn't matter. And I bet you that's how the terrorist are thinkin.

Condi Rice is getting told what to do, Malaysia and Egypt should go down, the UN doesn't really do anything anyways, and I never liked any pope who existed, so, my logic could be right. But then again, I never said my logic is right, did I?

[Lt. James Anderson]

Once the military capability is destoryed, the social organization would be next, one thing at a time.

No guerrilla war has been won by killing the enemy alone. I just don't see a way for Israel to win population on their side. The most important thing is that guerrillas are locals ... sons, fathers, brothers, neighbors etc. IMO, the only way that conflict can be "won"/solved is if one sides completely exterminates the other (and I don't think that either side will/can go for that).

[Pandy]

No guerrilla war has been won by killing the enemy alone. I just don't see a way for Israel to win population on their side. The most important thing is that guerrillas are locals ... sons, fathers, brothers, neighbors etc. IMO, the only way that conflict can be "won"/solved is if one sides completely exterminates the other (and I don't think that either side will/can go for that).

That's true, but like any other social organization (Baath Party, AQ, Taliban, bah bah bah) can be smashed over time.

[762rk95]

If both sides (especially the Hezbollah/Lebanon.) would obey the ceasfire, it would be the best thing for everyone involved.



Anyone who wears a red shirt supports TERRORISM AND COMMUNISM !
aaaaaaaaargh!!!! i'm part time terrorist/commie!!! :oops:

it's quite unlikely that hezbollah will obey ceasefire. or that israel would make any realistic peace proposals that would end this conflict. my quess is +15 more years of bloodshed and mostly civilian casualties on both sides before participants of conflict will be enough fed up with it.

and currently there is no military reasons why israel should lose this. only way/thing israel can lose is losing rest of their foreign support/sympathy (there isn't much of it left outside of usa anymore). any organization/nation that deliberately attacks against civilians is evil. i think that israel limits "collateral damage" only for sake of foreign relations, not for humanitarian reasons. on hizbollah side it's quite clear that they don't even try to restrict their attacks on military targets. it's quite unlikely that anything would change if balance of power would be opposite to what it is. :-(

[Steelhead]

That's true, but like any other social organization (Baath Party, AQ, Taliban, bah bah bah) can be smashed over time.

Freedom of speech is a freedom. You shouldn't abuse it.

To say that if you support an end to a conflict between peoples labels you as a sympathizer of one side makes you politically and socially incorrect.

If you have the freedom to accuse or label people of being terrorists because of their support for a ceasefire, then you yourself are stripping them of their freedom's.

[Lt. James Anderson]

That's true, but like any other social organization (Baath Party, AQ, Taliban, bah bah bah) can be smashed over time.

Without winning over population? I doubt it. As for the current situation, it resembles the first campaign nd that didn't go well for Israel ...


makes you politically and socially incorrect

LOL ...

[tanks_alot]

Without winning over population? I doubt it. As for the current situation, it resembles the first campaign nd that didn't go well for Israel ...



LOL ...

The campaign itself went ok, the problem was what followed it.

[americanbychoice]

IMO, the only way that conflict can be "won"/solved is if one sides completely exterminates the other (and I don't think that either side will/can go for that).

IMO, the underlying issues would not be solved if the Jews were completely annihilated & Israel was destroyed/renamed Palestine. Killing the Jews would not end the subjugation of the Arab people in Palestine, nor would it solve the other issues of social justice around the rest of the Middle East.

[Pandy]

Freedom of speech is a freedom. You shouldn't abuse it.

To say that if you support an end to a conflict between peoples labels you as a sympathizer of one side makes you politically and socially incorrect.

If you have the freedom to accuse or label people of being terrorists because of their support for a ceasefire, then you yourself are stripping them of their freedom's.

Negotiating with terrorist is right? Destorying a terrorist organization is politically and socially incorrect? Huh, I didn't know that. That's all new to me.

[alexz]

No guerrilla war has been won by killing the enemy alone. I just don't see a way for Israel to win population on their side. The most important thing is that guerrillas are locals ... sons, fathers, brothers, neighbors etc. IMO, the only way that conflict can be "won"/solved is if one sides completely exterminates the other (and I don't think that either side will/can go for that).

I don't think winning the lebanese population support is ak ey since
Israel (hopefully) doesn't paln to re-occupay southern Lebanon.
On the other hand many Lebanese have a lot of questions to the
hezzbulla and what exactly did they achieve by invading Israel just
to see Lebanon being destroyed and the logic of having dozens of
fighters killed to free a few paelstinian terrorists, who are not members
of hezzbula or even shial?

[Snoshi]

It does not matter how it ends.... Hizbullah will still claim victory...

[Mr. Nielsen]

I don't think winning the lebanese population support is ak ey since
Israel (hopefully) doesn't paln to re-occupay southern Lebanon.
On the other hand many Lebanese have a lot of questions to the
hezzbulla and what exactly did they achieve by invading Israel just
to see Lebanon being destroyed and the logic of having dozens of
fighters killed to free a few paelstinian terrorists, who are not members
of hezzbula or even shial?

It was a cross border raid, not much of an invasion of Israel.

And they want the lebanese prisoners free. The israelis want the two israelis free, and apparently also believe it's worth being bombarded for.


It does not matter how it ends.... Hizbullah will still claim victory...

So would Israel no matter then outcome.

[Atlantic Friend]

The French are more anti-Semitic than the Germans - just less efficient.)

Ralph Peters, novelist, once again takes over Ralph Peters, columnist. I liked it better when he wrote fiction and publicized his work as such.

[dangerclose]

Your 'if youre not on my side you're evil and eat babies' I dont support.


Sing after me:

There are no good guys ... there are no bad guys .. it's only you and me and we just disagree.

[Argyll]

The Taliban are still going strong after 5 years of fighting, as are AQ......I take it you don't follow what's going on in Afghanistan these days....

Same with Iraq.....these orginisations are still standing up to the Superpowers.

And to say that anyone who wants a ceasfire is a terrorist supporter is downright offensive, and unneccesary, and has nothing to do with free speach....how many armed conflicts you participated in "hero".......you won't have time to answer, but you'll have 10 days to think about making stupid comments on this website.

[oldsoak]

Can Israel win ?
- not without the Lebanese, not in the long term. It is impossible to destroy Hezbollah when they have a whole country that has tolerated their existance to dissappear in. The only way to get rid of them is to somehow co-opt the Lebaneses government into seeing Hezbollah as a threat and getting rid of them.
trouble is, that wont happen with Syrias blessing.

[Canman]

Israel hasent done s*&t to hurt Hezballah's military or social structure all they have done is bomb a whole bunch of civilian homes and probly created a stronger support for hezballah among the lebannese population and probly got there 2 captured soldiers killed in the process.

The thing that annoys me most is that if any other country pulled this crap there leaders would be in the dock for war crimes. Can you imagine if every time someone fired a mortar at the coalition in Iraq they blew up the entire block where they think it came from. I mean sure they keep saying they are trying to achive UN resolution 1551, but that doesent mean ignoring a whole heap of other resolutions to do it.

[Macs.]

Israel hasent done s*&t to hurt Hezballah's military or social structure all they have done is bomb a whole bunch of civilian homes and probly created a stronger support for hezballah among the lebannese population and probly got there 2 captured soldiers killed in the process.


You must have a outstanding intel-source.

[Canman]

I havent seen any lebanese civilians sypathetic to the Israels plight. Since they started there heavy handed campain most of the civilians ive seen are now in support of hezzbola. I mean to beat an ideologic group like hezbolla id have though you would need to get the support of the local civilian population first. I mean you would assume after this there would be a whole lot of angry lebanese with destroyed homes and lost loved ones that would maybe be driven to hezbolla to seek out some sort of revenge.

[Vraltupp]

Freedom of speech is a freedom. You shouldn't abuse it.

To say that if you support an end to a conflict between peoples labels you as a sympathizer of one side makes you politically and socially incorrect.

If you have the freedom to accuse or label people of being terrorists because of their support for a ceasefire, then you yourself are stripping them of their freedom's.

Well there are obviously different forms of Freedom of Speech..
USA and Israel got one form, for example its ok to bomb radiostations, tv stations, close down newspapers and fire at journalists etc but its not ok for a US citizen to wear a Anti Bush T-shirt during a protest.
Its not allowed to say nazi things in either Sweden or Germany by the law, and not wearing nazi symbols. Extreme left wing symbols are allowed though, and to call a swede a ****ing honkey or something simular is OK. but you might get fined for saying racial foul words to non whites.

thank you all.

[budgie]

"A U.S. government official put it to me this way: "Israel's got the clock, but Hezbollah's got the time." The sands of the hourglass favor the terrorists - every day they hold out and drop more rockets on Israel, Hezbollah scores a propaganda win."

No the rockets Hezbollah drop on Israel only appeal to like minded Jihadists.

"All Hezbollah has to do to achieve victory is not to lose completely. But for Israel to emerge the acknowledged winner, it has to shatter Hezbollah. Yet Israeli miscalculations have left Hezbollah alive and kicking."

Correct. All the more reason to understand that on ly a political solution, not a military one, can lead to the dismantling of the organisation's militant wings. Remember they've been elected to parliament, as have Hamas. People in their countries rely on them for leadership. In this respect they don't compare to Al Qaeda, who do nothing to provide services, only wage holy war.

"Israel has to pull itself together now, to send in ground troops in sufficient numbers, with fierce resolve to do what must be done: Root out Hezbollah fighters and kill them. This means Israel will suffer painful casualties - more today than if the Israeli Defense Force had gone in full blast at this fight's beginning."

Perhaps this is not a bad short term solution - at least foir the hardcore militants in Hezbollah. But immediately after, international troops must fill the vacuum and the world must give greater support to Lebanon in fostering a replacement security force in Southern Lebanon. People need to forget Hezbollah were the army there and they certainly will not stand for Israeli occupation.

"The situation is grave. A perceived Hezbollah win will be a massive victory for terror, as well as a triumph for Iran and Syria. And everybody loves a winner - especially in the Middle East, where Arabs and Persians have been losing so long."

I don't see how Hezbollah can claim victory out of this. The best they'll manage is a ceasefire and if they're lucky a prisoner exchange. The majority of Arabs won't see hundreds of civilian deaths as worth it.

* By trying to spare Israeli lives through the use of airpower and long-range artillery fire instead of ground troops, the IDF played into Hezbollah's hands. The terrorists could claim that Israel feared them. Meanwhile, Israeli targeting proved shockingly sloppy, failing to ravage Hezbollah, while hitting civilians - to the international media's delight.

Good point.

* The IDF is readying a reinforced brigade of armor and 3,000 to 5,000 troops for a "limited incursion" into southern Lebanon. Won't work. Not enough troops. And Hezbollah's had time to get locked and loaded. This is going to be messy - any half-hearted Israeli effort will fall short.

Possibly

* Famed for its penetration, Israeli intelligence failed this time. It didn't detect the new weapons Iran and Syria had provided to Hezbollah, from anti-ship missiles to longer-range rockets. And, after years of spying, it couldn't find Hezbollah.

Yeah well if they attack another country without the proper intelligence...well we all know how that turns out by now don't we.

This should set off global alarm bells: If Hezbollah can hide rockets, Iran can hide nukes.

Those alarm bells have already been sounded and the IAEA is working on it.

* The media sided heavily with Hezbollah (surprise, surprise). Rocket attacks on Israel were reported clinically, but IDF strikes on Lebanon have been milked for every last drop of emotion. We hear about broken glass in Haifa - and bleeding babies in Beirut.

Plain lie. I get mainsteam media and there's plenty of 'bleeding babies' in Haifa on CNN

* Washington rejoiced when several Arab governments criticized Hezbollah for its actions. But the Arab street, Shia and Sunni, has coalesced behind Hezbollah. Saudi and Egyptian government statements are worth about as much as a greeting card from Marie Antoinette on New Year's Day, 1789.

So what are we gonna do about it? Bomb them too? Maybe we should be working with the 'Arab Street'

* Syria and Iran are getting a free ride. Hezbollah fights and dies, Damascus and Tehran collect the dividends.

So far I don't see what Iran could gain. Syrian troops won't be allowed back into Lebanon. All the region gets is further instability. It's not good for anyone.

* Israel looks irresolute and incapable - encouraging its enemies.

Israel looks like an overconfident bully to me.

* The "world community" wants a cease-fire - which would only benefit the terrorists. Hezbollah would claim (accurately) that it had withstood Israel's assault. Couldn't get a better terrorist recruiting advertisement.

There will be a ceasefire eventually. That's how all wars end. The win/loss dynamic depends on the terms.

* A cease-fire would be under U.N. auspices. Gee, thanks. No U.N. force would protect Israel's interests, but plenty of U.N. contingents would cooperate with or turn a blind eye to the terrorists. Think Russia's an honest broker? Ask its Jews who fled to Israel. Would French troops protect Israeli interests? Ask the Jews Vichy bureaucrats packed off to the death camps. (The French are more anti-Semitic than the Germans - just less efficient.)

Bullsh*t

* One bright spot: The Bush administration continues to resist international attempts to bully Israel into a premature cease-fire. Secretary of State Condoleezza Rice is flying off to the big falafel stand as a token gesture, not to interfere with Israel's self-defense.

Oh Bush is bravely 'resisting' international 'bullying'? That's rich after he pretty much bullied the UN into further resolutions on Iraq and then still went his own way. I wouldn't call Bush's obstinate blind suppoprt for Israel a 'bright spot'

But the clock's ticking. Washington can only buy Israel so much time.

* Every rocket that lands in Israel is a propaganda victory for Hezbollah. After 1,000-plus Israeli air-strikes, the rockets keep falling, and Israel looks impotent. The price of sparing Israeli infantrymen has been the elevation of Hezbollah to heroic status through the Muslim world.

Hint. the Muslim world cannot be simply 'defeated'. Working with them to find peaceful solutions will not equate to a muslim 'victory'. To put it more plainly, bombing Lebanon flat will not work. Period.

* The Olmert government tried to wage war on the cheap. Such efforts always raise the cost in the end. Olmert resembles President Bill Clinton - willing to lob bombs from a distance, but unwilling to accept that war means friendly casualties.

In a military sense this may be half-true. However politically I doubt that Clinton would have taken such action without international support. furthermore I believe if Clinton were still in the white house then the peace process would be further along and things would not have gotten this bad.

* Israel needs to grasp the power of the global media. Long proud of going its own way in the face of genocidal anti-Semitism, Israel now has to recognize that the media can overturn the verdict of the battlefield. Even if Israel pulls off a last-minute win on the ground, the anti-Israel propaganda machine has been given so big a head-start that Hezbollah still may be portrayed as the victor.

Oh please. By who? I think both sides will be shown to be losers. I don't see how either can 'win' this. Honestly all this right-wing crap about the evil global media is just scaremongering. As usual this axis of evil outlets no doubt doesn't include Fox, Limbaugh and Free Republic

"The situation is grim. Israel looks more desperate every day, while Hezbollah appears more defiant."

Yup

"This is ultimately about far more than a buffer zone in southern Lebanon. In the long run, it's about Israel's survival. And about preventing the rise of a nuclear Iran and the strengthening of the rogue regime in Syria. It's also about the future of Lebanon - everybody's victim. "

Especially Israel's.

"The mess Israel has made of its opportunity to smack down Hezbollah should be a wake-up call to the country's leadership. The IDF looks like a pathetic shadow of the bold military that Ariel Sharon led into Egypt three decades ago. The IDF's intelligence, targeting and planning were all deficient. Technology failed to vanquish flesh and blood. The myth of the IDF's invincibility just shattered. "

Progress means the other guys get to catch up too.

"If Israel can't turn this situation around quickly, the failure will be a turning point in its history. And not for the better. "

Actually it depends what you call a turning point 'for the better'. If it means Israel gets out of the Golan Heights, West Bank and Gaza and the Palestinians get their homeland and the Lebanese retain their autonomy; if it means Israel stays secure behind traditional borders and those displaced are allowed to prosper in a free Palestinian state, then the long term results could be quite rosy.

Somehow I think though we'll just get more of the status quo. And that's good for nobody.

[mcpuck]

:bash: This string is painfully biased toward Israel.

Can't you people even accept for a minute that Israel pulled a stupid with their overwhelming force against the citizens of South Lebanon?

Has it occurred to anyone that Israel's foreign policy has the emotional intelligence of a 13 year old girl or that maybe a government of a people may not always represent those people?

As a Canadian I hate the US government but man I love Americans. I truly believe that most Americans are vastly under represented by their government. If I can at least get you to agree to that I can further draw out my argument.

If a well educated and affluent population like that of the US can find it self helpless to control their governments foreign policy, then how are the Lebanese supposed to control theirs? Do you really think that the Lebanese are going to dismantle the Hezbollah because that organization provoked another country into lying wasted to their homes? The Lebanese do not control the Hezbollah. They didn't pre-authorize the attack on and subsequent deaths of IDF soldiers (May they rest in peace).

Do you really think it is justified to kill hundreds of Lebanese citizens because two guys in the IDF were kidnapped?

[LordHalbert]

I believe Isreal has the know-how and technology to destroy the enemy - i have no doubt in that.

But will it be allowed to ?

Isreal knows it's fighting against a clock.

Already Rice will be meeting with the Israeli PM to discuss of course cease-fire plans.

[Clarsachier]

with somebody else's troops monitoring their border, they'll be doing Okay IMO. (War crimes proceedings & loss of their military's prestige, notwithstanding.)

Right now, it looks to me like an overconfident schoolyard bully getting his butt kicked while venting his frustration on the weaker kids.

Any 'solution' or 'border force' that doesn't also address the core issue, the Pals, is doomed to failure.

[frenchy]

I don't really see where is the effectiveness of israelis during this dirty conflict in Lebanon.

- Always rockets on Israel.

- Always hezbollah strong resistance.

Where are the famous israeli intelligence services ?

even in tactics, why israelis don't send small teams to locate hezbollah members and call the airforce to strike hezbollah positions when they are located.

Do you think brute force airstrikes are efficient to stop hezbollah launching rockets in Israel ?

[citizen-k]

Im french. I know more about free speech than you do right now 'bruh'.

You also know more about colonialism and occupation, but I don't see you bragging about that...

[citizen-k]

Do you really think it is justified to kill hundreds of Lebanese citizens because two guys in the IDF were kidnapped? [/SIZE]

Haifa, Naharia, Kiryat-Shmone... rings a bell?

If you host rocket launchers in you back yard you should expect a visit from the IAF, that's all.

[Mastermind]

See, right there in the front of the post starting the thread..."Israel attacks Lebanese civilians...." tells it all. Not a mention of the inflitrated evil those citizens have harbored. I personally believe this thing is going to sway way, way further to the "Biblical" nature of things...By "Biblical" I mean whole populations will be made to suffer becasue of the evil they have allowed within them. The innocent will go with the guilty....and don't think I am being fatalistic on this. When these murdering thugs like the Hezzi nuts are totally infused within your society, the people fighting them will have no choice. You can not redeem a rabid dog.

The trouble is, the people fighting these rabid animals will have to not only defeat them...they will also have to defeat the mind set that all can be resolved with negotiations and compromise (the "Jimmah Cahtah" mind set). Wake up...this is one of those things that simply has to be destroyed completly, regardless of the terrible consequinces.MM

[ElHombre]

I don't really see where is the effectiveness of israelis during this dirty conflict in Lebanon.

- Always rockets on Israel.

- Always hezbollah strong resistance.

Where are the famous israeli intelligence services ?

that is something i've been wondering about as well. hezbollah's been preparing (what, six years or so?) for a fight with the IDF. their preparations seem to have caught israel completely off guard. what was the IDF doing in that time period?

[Clarsachier]

that is something i've been wondering about as well. hezbollah's been preparing (what, six years or so?) for a fight with the IDF. their preparations seem to have caught israel completely off guard. what was the IDF doing in that time period?

Obviously. And they continue to bring out more effective weaponry. This is why I think Hizbollah exploited the utter predictability of the Israeli response to pull IDF into a fight on their own terms.

I think Hisbollahs strategic goal may be close to being acheived as well :

Tide of Arab opinion turning to Hezbollah

http://www.iht.com/articles/2006/07/28/news/hezbollah.php

[ElHombre]

Obviously. And they continue to bring out more effective weaponry. This is why I think Hizbollah exploited the utter predictability of the Israeli response to pull IDF into a fight on their own terms.

I think Hisbollahs strategic goal may be close to being acheived as well

that's part of what i wonder about. israel's strategy seemed to be little more than copying the US strategy in iraq. that should've sent a gigantic warning sign to anyone paying attention.

[Paracaidista]

I read many news about the "atrocities" of Israel on Lebanon. Deaths of kids and babies caused the israelies' bombs. BUT few if any fail to report that this thing started because of the rockets and other actions of Hezbollah on civilian israelies, causing them deaths as well. The only reason Israel has no more civilian casualties than Lebanon is they have bunkers to protect them.

Maybe Israel has to play a little bit to the emotional side and shown their casualties to the world as well.

[haschmich]

Can Israel win? No, because they are fighting for a unjust cause. History will show in modern times such ruthlesness will result in tradegy. Israel will get its punishment sooner or later.

[Decebalus]

Yes but you have to remember that Hezbolah started to launch rockets in Israel in heavy numbers only after Israel was bombing the hell out of Lebanon.

[Paracaidista]

Yes but you have to remember that Hezbolah started to launch rockets in Israel in heavy numbers only after Israel was bombing the hell out of Lebanon.

One rocket is enough to draw first blood.

This thing of an-eye-for-an-eye can't go forever. Israel tried to stop it and what got the last straw was two soldiers kidnapped, and hence the violence started again.

[Clarsachier]

that's part of what i wonder about. israel's strategy seemed to be little more than copying the US strategy in iraq. that should've sent a gigantic warning sign to anyone paying attention.

This is the first administration that's participated in 'mideast peacebrokering' without demanding a single concession from Israel in the deal.

Other administrations have always done something to at least, give the impression of impartiality. Thereby, maintaining a particule of credibility in their
negotiation stance.

This administration is negotiating 100 percent on Israel's side in the matter. And seems completely oblivious to the fact that they have less than zero credibility because of it. This stupidity is almost comical.

Hezbollah isn't disarmed. In fact, they've launched more rockets each day as
Israel's attacks increased . Israel's vaunted ground forces havn't even
cleared more than a few villages on the border. How's this cease fire going to
work out when Hizbollahs appears to be the winner?

(You know the rule in boxing - the challenger only has to survive to take the title.)

[Mastermind]

I think the media have hyped the "Israel attacks Lebanese civilians with indiscriminate bombing" BS...I can assure you, if Israel had been dropping cluster bombs and 2,000 pounders "indiscriminately" on civilian population centers, there would be 600,000 dead rather than a few hundred (most of whom are the terrorists themselves).

The answer to the thread title question is "Yes!" Israel can win...but the more important question is, "What will Israel be after it has done what it must do to win?"

What will we be if we ever develop the fortitude to do what we must do to "Win"?

There will be no winners in all this...there will be only death, misery, and shattered people. And when it is over, we will be left standing...dazed and in awe of what we have done. The Islamists have no idea of the power they are fiddling around with...and as many terrorists have learned before, they may actually over reach to a point of tripping that mighty hammer that will fall upon them. The Japanese did...the Germans did....this time it will be much, much uglier.

MM

[Paracaidista]

This is the first administration that's participated in 'mideast peacebrokering' without demanding a single concession from Israel in the deal.

Other administrations have always done something to at least, give the impression of impartiality. Thereby, maintaining a particule of credibility in their
negotiation stance.

This administration is negotiating 100 percent on Israel's side in the matter. And seems completely oblivious to the fact that they have less than zero credibility because of it. This stupidity is almost comical.

Hezbollah isn't disarmed. In fact, they've launched more rockets each day as Israel's attacks increased . Israel's vaunted ground forces havn't even cleared more than a few villages on the border. How's this cease fire going to
work out when Hizbollahs appears to be the winner?

(You know the rule in boxing - the challenger only has to survive to take the title.)

The US, giving its already little popularity in the region, it might as well let Israel do its business, as a way of also weakening or exposing the Iranians.

[One?]

Like I said in the other thread.

Israel tried for 18 years and ended up withdrawing. They tried in maroun al ras and couldnt advance a few hundred meters. 20 Days later and katyushas are still flying into israel.

Olmert began with saying he wants to crush hezbollah and eliminate them.
Then it was hezbollah north of the litani
Now he just wants the 1 km buffer zone and Israel withdrew from some hills that it occupied 4 days ago.

Israel couldn't stop katyushas in Grapes of Wrath when hezbollah had limited supplies what makes you think they will now? What makes you think the Lebanese will stop supporting hezbollah ?

It will end like it always ends. Some deal, some agreement that will last a few years and the cycle will start again.

They tried sending in foreign peacekeepers to lebanon and that did not go so well. Israel is not fighting hezbollah they are fighting more than half of the lebanese population. And incase you didn't notice hezbollah is not the only party fighting in the south there others.

CNN and Fox show you images from the gaza strip and hamas and claim they are hezbollah. All those killed in the latest fighting have at least 15+ years combat experience. How many years do the 20 year old IDF soldeirs have? Hezbollah will fight till death (they do not fear death) are the IDF soldeirs willing to do the same? I don't think so because it has been decided to increase air strikes and to halt or reduce the ground attack.

[Daniel1115]

Hezbollah will fight till death (they do not fear death).You are right. Whether it be Hamas, Hezbollah, Muslim Brotherhood, etc. their plan is to simply survive. They are confident that following conflicts, support for them will expand while contempt towards their enemies swell. I would hate to see a world where Hezbollah captures Lebanon and Muslim Brotherhood seizes Egypt.

[Snoshi]

Israel will need to do some simple things to "win"..

1st.. make damage to Hezbollah and its infrastructure.
2nd: dont let them rebuild it.
3rd: Probably hardest one, dont let Syria or Iran resupply them.

[Switek]

Military Israel will win but not destroy Hezbollah on his own. To destroy or rather to neutralize Hezbollach is necessary to block Iranian and Syrian influences in Lebanon. This is beyond Israeli possibilities.

Politically Israel is going to lose this war. Israel is losing info war. There is limited patience for international publicity to watch pictures of civilian casualities and count the numer of them increasing by 30-50 victims per day...

[DuDe]

All those killed in the latest fighting have at least 15+ years combat experience. How many years do the 20 year old IDF soldeirs have?
And the funny thing is, that those 20 year old IDF soldiers have inflicted some very heavy casualties on your precious 15+ year combat experienced hezzies. The IDF lost about thirty soldiers, while at southern Lebanon lie the bodies of at the very least 250 hezzies, and the numbers are climbing every day.

[Clarsachier]

The US, giving its already little popularity in the region, it might as well let Israel do its business, as a way of also weakening or exposing the Iranians.

I agree that the U.S. definately can't loose more credibility, at this point.

But they need to stop Israel since the situation is playing right into the hands of Iran and expanding their influence. This is the concern of the the moderate
(Sunni) Arab states in the region as well.

[budgie]

Question: Can Israel win?

Answer: No. Not in the 'military victory' sense anyway.

Hezbollah and Lebanon will always be there. They will not be 'conquered' or 'eradicated' by Israel - they are too deeply entrenched both politically and militarily. Only by both sides embracing a moderate approach can they learn to coexist. Yes Hezbollah have been involved in terrorism but the doesn't mean they cannot be reformed. Same goes for Hamas. Sinn Fein have made great strides away from violence, as have ETA. Part of the story of Israel's founding was extremist Israelis mounting terrorist attacks and they've reformed, well partially anyway. It can be donw.

Where to start? A cease fire of course. The return of the Golan Heights. An Israeli withdrawal from Southern Lebanon, Gaza and the West Bank (including settlements); An international force in Southern Lebanon to both build up the Lebanese army and help them replace/integrate the military wing of Hezbollah. It can be done.

As for all this talk about a cease fire being one-sided or a false peace, that's codswallop. This 'now is not the time' act was thrown out there by the Bush administration immediately to stifle any talk of the option. They thought they could buy Israel time to destroy Hezbollah. I say give them a year or two or ten and they won't succeed. So they'd better start negotiating now. Thankfully most of the world community haven't been fooled by Rice's pathetic excuse not to promote a cease fire and guess what - looks like the Bushies are finally starting to come around. We'll see.

[Clarsachier]

Question: Can Israel win?

Answer: No. Not in the 'military victory' sense anyway.

pathetic excuse not to promote a cease fire and guess what - looks like the Bushies are finally starting to come around. We'll see.

Likely what's happened is that when Bush originally asked Olmert, "How much time do you need?" 2 weeks ago, he was told, "Oh, just a week or two - we'll roll right over these wimps just like we do the Pals."

But now, 'the Bushies' have been forced to reassess & assume a 'damage control' posture in behalf of 'their clients'.

Additionally, since their no. 1 instinct is survival, 'the Bushies' may be feeling a slight need to protect them from possible int'l legal liability that may be in the works.

[budgie]

Additionally, since their no. 1 instinct is survival, 'the Bushies' may be feeling a slight need to protect them from possible int'l legal liability that may be in the works.

Naah they're not afraid of international law. Political survival, maybe. I had to laugh at the Newsweek cover suggesting Bush had the 'weight of the world' on his shoulders over this. I don't belive Bush has the social mechanisms to feel any pressure or guilt. He's apathetic, antipathetic and basically unkind. If he cared for anything I'd buy it, but IMO he doesn't.

[Clarsachier]

Naah they're not afraid of international law. Political survival, maybe. I had to laugh at the Newsweek cover suggesting Bush had the 'weight of the world' on his shoulders over this. I don't belive Bush has the social mechanisms to feel any pressure or guilt. He's apathetic, antipathetic and basically unkind. If he cared for anything I'd buy it, but IMO he doesn't.

Survival, most definately.

He definately cares about his core constituancy, (Big Oil, Insurance and Gov. contractors) looking at what he's done for them. I feel sorry for Rice. I think she's very sharp but at her witts end trying to make the best of a foriegn policy designed by someone more concerned about what new forks he's gonna get for his mountain bike than being able to spell Lebannon.:)

[Zeev]

to answer to this question you must ask "can the hezbollah win"..

evrybody knows that of course no (thanks to g.od) so the answer is, yes, israel can win, and it will :)

[Zeev]

the numer of them increasing by 30-50 victims per day...

youre right mate but you know that israeli policies arent influenced by this kind of pressures, when we start a job, we finish it... anyway,we use to be condemn by the moralist international community, this is not the first time, and not the last, so....

[Clarsachier]

http://www.expatica.com/source/site_article.asp?subchannel_id=48&story_id=31840&name=War+crimes+case+lodged+against+Israel


BRUSSELS — A Belgian lawyer will lodge on Thursday a complaint in Belgium against Israel for alleged war crimes.

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/article/0,,251-2278347,00.html


International law on war crimes raises the prospect that individuals can be held criminally liable for military action. As Ms Arbor pointed out, such liability is not restricted to the military, but extends to politicians who approve their operations.

"In principle a whole range of people from the Israeli Prime Minister, through senior generals down to air force or artillery gunners could be guilty of war crimes," Mr Machover said.

International law classes a wide range of activities under the umbrella of war crimes, but the current focus is Israel’s aerial bombardment of Lebanon, where reports of civilian deaths in recent days include a family killed in their car while attempting to escape an area under sustained Israeli attack.

International law prohibits armies from: "Intentionally launching an attack in the knowledge that such attack will cause incidental loss of life or injury to civilians or damage to civilian objects…which would be clearly excessive in relation to the concrete and direct overall military advantage anticipated."

Professor Iain Scobbie, a member of the law faculty at London’s School of Oriental and African Studies, said that international law would allow individual Israelis to be held liable, if proven, for breaching these requirements.

Israeli Government representatives insist that all air strikes are subject to proper assessments and commanders are ordered to abort attacks that are deemed to carry unacceptable civilian risks. There is also the possibility that civilians could be killed as a result of stray Hezbollah rockets or gunfire.

Mr Machover said that in order for a war crimes prosecution to be initiated, very detailed investigations into exactly which targets were hit, when and by whom would be needed. If there is sufficient evidence then independent military experts can be called to give opinions on whether the attacks were justified.

Aside from the difficulty of collecting reliable evidence from a war zone, Mr Machover warned of the ever-present political dimension in war crimes cases.

Israel has not ratified the Treaty of Rome, which limits the scope for war crimes prosecutions against its soldiers, but two options remain. The United Nations can convene an ad-hoc war crimes tribunal, as it did to try Slobodan Milosovic, but is very unlikely to do so long as America continues to support Israel’s military action in Lebanon and holds a UN veto, according to Mr Machover.

This leaves scope for individual countries to bring war crimes prosecutions in their national courts under their own laws. But with senior Israeli generals and politicians wary of traveling to certain countries and extradition unheard of, this remains a highly unlikely prospect.

With war crimes accusations flying at Israel, lawyers point out that Hezbollah, the Lebanese group whose kidnapping of two Israeli soldiers precipitated the current crisis, is not exempt from international law and so not immune to prosecutions.

The legal rules are more complex, and prosecutions even less likely, but Hezbollah’s kidnappings and rocket attacks put it in breach of both The Geneva Convention and its subsequent amendments. Another possibility, albeit extremely unlikely, are straightforward homicide charges against Hezbollah leaders.


http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-3278907,00.html


Killing of civilians in Lebanon is likely to subject Israeli soldiers to war crime trials in international courts, UN human rights high commissioner says

[ElHombre]

to answer to this question you must ask "can the hezbollah win"..

evrybody knows that of course no (thanks to g.od) so the answer is, yes, israel can win, and it will :)

kindly look up the definition of pyrrhic victory (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pyrrhic_victory) sometime.

[Zeev]

kindly look up the definition of pyrrhic victory (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pyrrhic_victory) sometime.

I dont think so... but thanks for the link.. Ive learn a new thing :lol:

[Clarsachier]

is in flux.

Israel won't ask Hizbollah to disarm

http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20060729/wl_nm/mideast_israel_hizbollah_dc;_ylt=AlKVD2CKoxj6L4ZIKSThveKs0NUE;_ylu=X3oDMTA3b3JuZGZhBHNlYwM3MjE-

[Paracaidista]

Unless the IDF can call most of their ranks (say 500,000 men/women fit for military service) and go and occupy the area in conflict to proper eliminate Hezbollah, then it won't be uprooted, hence Israel won't win.

[Beaufort]

The Israeli government never planned to "uproot" or "disarm" Hizboallah.

The main goal of the war is to change the status quo that has existed ever since the evacuation of the Security Zone in 2000.

This would mean pushing the Hizboallah from the Israeli-Lebanese border and the formation of an effective international force that would make sure that only the Lebanese military sits on the border and that there are no rocket launchers south of the Litani River.

[TheBelgian]

I don't know if they'll win but they certainly wont lose.

[One?]

And the funny thing is, that those 20 year old IDF soldiers have inflicted some very heavy casualties on your precious 15+ year combat experienced hezzies. The IDF lost about thirty soldiers, while at southern Lebanon lie the bodies of at the very least 250 hezzies, and the numbers are climbing every day.

Israel still has to prove the 250 deaths. So far they showed the bodies of 4 and then claimed 9 others were hezzies but ended being IDF soldeirs. Like I said hezbollah do not fear death and are not ashamed of it. They will be the first to announce their dead. They publish thier names in the daily newspapers.


The Israeli government never planned to "uproot" or "disarm" Hizboallah.

The main goal of the war is to change the status quo that has existed ever since the evacuation of the Security Zone in 2000.

This would mean pushing the Hizboallah from the Israeli-Lebanese border and the formation of an effective international force that would make sure that only the Lebanese military sits on the border and that there are no rocket launchers south of the Litani River.

You're wrong. Olmert said he will crush hezbollah and eliminate them once and for all.

The IDF occupied lebanon for 18 years and that didn't stop any of the lebanese from fighting them. Read up on some history.

[tanks_alot]

There are already a large number of bodies collected by the IDF from the battle fields, the rest simply remain where they were killed.

back when Israel was still in Lebanon the army would count the funerals of Hezbollah members to get an accurate body count, when added with the Hezbollah remains collected by the IDF the numbers would usualy fit with the Hezbollah claims.

obviosuly this is not the case anymore, there are many reasons for them to hide their losses now, the war is not only fought only on the battle field anymore and claiming you have no losses in order to show the other side as incompetent is a very good reason.

look at it this way, why should they admit to their losses now while they don't even have the remains of their members? they are operating in small squads and don't have the means to retrieve their dead.

the goverment never made any statment that the objective of this operation is to destroy Hezbollah, from the begining it was stated the objectives are to return the kidnapped soldiers and to kick Hezbollah from the south.

the objective of the Lebanon war was to kick the PLO from Lebanon and it was achived, the mistake was that the army didn't pull back to Israel when it was done, we tried to install a pupet regime (which worked great for about two weeks) and ended up sinking into the lebanese mud.

this dosn't mean that a full scale operation in order to sweep south Lebanon and than letting an international force to take over wouldn't work this time(and thats probably what will happen if things won't calm down soon, as three reserve ugdot have already been recruited).

[gadzook]

Hezbollah has neutered the IDF's armor. The IDF cannot use it's tanks because Hezbollah has spent years developing the terrain in Southern Lebanon into one gigantic tank trap.

What about the IDF getting numerous MBT's knocked out of action? For years on this very messageboard, Israeli's have been boasting of their MBT's near invincible qualities. Now we are seeing them destroyed by what amounts to very early modeled TOW clones. The type of anti-tank missiles that Abrams and Challenger II's can soak up without so much as a scratch are knocking out the IDF armor.

Hezbollah did their homework. The western media sees Hezbollah as a rag tag bunch of terrorists, but the truth is that they look very well disciplined and following a fairly well executed battleplan.

I wish Israel the best, by the way. Hope they destroy Hezbollah once and for all. But it appears they are going to have a very tough time given the current state of their campaign.

[Lt. James Anderson]

Looks like IDF is making the same mistakes they were making the last time they were in Lebanon. The only way to fight unconventional force like Hezbollah is to use infantry. But that takes time and is very costly ... Does Israel have stomach for it? Doesn't look like it (the same as years ago) Everything else has failed and will fail.

[Snoshi]

Hezbollah has neutered the Idf armor. The IDF cannot use it's tanks because Hezbollah has spent years developing the terrain in Southern Lebanon into one gigantic tank trap.

What about the IDF getting numerous MBT's knocked out of action? For years on this very messageboard, Israeli's have been boasting of their MBT's near invincible qualities. Now we are seeing them destroyed by what amounts to very early modeled TOW clones. The type of anti-tank missiles that Abrams and Challenger II's can soak up without so much as a scratch are knocking out the IDF armor.

Hezbollah did their homework. The western media sees Hezbollah as a rag tag bunch of terrorists, but the truth is that they look very well disciplined and following a fairly well executed battleplan.

I wish Israel the best, by the way. Hope they destroy Hezbollah once and for all. But it appears they are going to have a very tough time given the current state of their campaign.


What? One tank was completely destroyed by an IED.. other one was penetrated and that's it..

[frenchy]

Neither Israel neither hezbollah will win.

Impossible to beat hezbollah (between 5000 and 40000 men). Syria and Iran brings them weapons.

Hezbollah members and their weapons are well hidden.

And hezbollah can't erase Israel of the map.

And IDF airstrikes don't stop rockets.

[tanks_alot]

What? One tank was completely destroyed by an IED.. other one was penetrated and that's it..
Actualy the Merkava 4 that was hit by a missile was not penetrated, the officer was killed from the blast which means he was not fully buttoned up.

i really don't think you can call Kornet ATGM a TOW clone (not that a TOW is a bad weapon), Hezbollah are very well trained and equiped and anyone claiming otherwise dosn't know what he's talking about.

Gadzook, when exactly did US and British tanks had to deal with some of the best AT weapons in the world?

[Beaufort]

You're wrong. Olmert said he will crush hezbollah and eliminate them once and for all.


I doubt it...

At most he would have probably meant that the ramifications of the operation will bring the downfall of Hizboallah.



The IDF occupied lebanon for 18 years and that didn't stop any of the lebanese from fighting them. Read up on some history.


I know Israel's history in Lebanon rather well, thank you very much.

However this time around we are not staying in Lebanon.

[Zvucni Efekti]

However this time around we are not staying in Lebanon.
Would you be kind enough to let me in on Wednesday's lottery numbers? :roll:

[Kampfbaer]

I do not know who will win this conflict, but I´m quite sure the losers will be the civilian people on both sides.

Bombing the hell out of Lebanon won´t make them good friends/neighbours to Israel. On the other hand the people of nothern Israel will look more suspiciously at their northern neighbours.

It´s not enough to win the war, you must be able too keep the peace!

[Beaufort]

Hezbollah has neutered the IDF's armor. The IDF cannot use it's tanks because Hezbollah has spent years developing the terrain in Southern Lebanon into one gigantic tank trap.


That's why there are combat engineers who have worked extensively in Lebanon prior to the entry of armored forces (and during the stay in the field).



What about the IDF getting numerous MBT's knocked out of action? For years on this very messageboard, Israeli's have been boasting of their MBT's near invincible qualities. Now we are seeing them destroyed by what amounts to very early modeled TOW clones. The type of anti-tank missiles that Abrams and Challenger II's can soak up without so much as a scratch are knocking out the IDF armor.


No AT missile has taken a Merk out of action.

I doubt that there is any tank in existence that can survive a 100 kilogram IED to its underbelly. This was the case with the Merk 3 that crossed the border during in persuit of the Hizboallah force that abducted the 2 soldiers.

In another case (during the battle of Bint Jbil), a similar IED hit a Merk 4, one crew member was killed.

As for AT missiles, there was one fatality due to the fact that the tank commander was exposed.

The Kornet that was used by Hizboallah is nothing like the TOW in terms of its abilities.

Kornet can penetrate 1,200 mm of steel armor or 4.5 meters of concrete.

[Beaufort]

Would you be kind enough to let me in on Wednesday's lottery numbers? :roll:

I'll just say that we should live and see.

That's all...

[frenchy]

Question.

A lot of hezbollah rocket launchers are hidden in forest. Why Israelis don't burn the forest to locate the rocket launchers ?

[Zeev]

Question.

A lot of hezbollah rocket launchers are hidden in forest. Why Israelis don't burn the forest to locate the rocket launchers ?

because after that, israel will be accuse of ecologic disaster ;)

anyway, this kind of operation will be too complicated and absolutely ineffective...

[frenchy]

because after that, israel will be accuse of ecologic disaster ;)

anyway, this kind of operation will be too complicated and absolutely ineffective...

Between ecologic disaster and human disaster ....

Israel is always accused.rofl

I don't understand the IDF strategy, airstrikes seems inefficient always tons of rockets in israel.

Sure that if they enter with ground forces, there will be a lot of deads, but how do they want to find hezbollah bunkers and rocket lauchers just with air forces ?

[Clarsachier]

Looks like IDF is making the same mistakes they were making the last time they were in Lebanon. The only way to fight unconventional force like Hezbollah is to use infantry. But that takes time and is very costly ... Does Israel have stomach for it? Doesn't look like it (the same as years ago) Everything else has failed and will fail.

True but at the same time, IDF discontinued their invasion. Which IMO, deterred Hizbollah's strategy of an 'insurgent style' defence. Due to the
overwhelming force IDF has, unless Hizbollah 'fade into the scenery' for a while, they'll be destroyed. If they break off hostilities to let the IDF expend itself and the peace initiatives get going, I don't see how they can loose.

[Switek]

I don't understand the IDF strategy, airstrikes seems inefficient always tons of rockets in israel.


I'm not strategist or well informed in military, tactics... But I know something about decission making process in Israeli government, MoD... When they decide to attack some targets they have a reason to do.

Their priorites are clear: safety to Israel they do not count any possible civilian casualities. Safety for Israeli first then any international responsibility. I don't like to count new civilian casualities from Lebanon but the question is why Israel must do what it do....

[Clarsachier]

http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/article14196.htm

07/26/06 "Information Clearing House' -- -- This week I had the pleasure to appear on American radio, on the Laura Ingraham show, pitted against David Horowitz, a "Semite supremacist” who most recently made his name under the banner of Campus Watch, leading McCarthyite witch-hunts against American professors who have the impertinence to suggest that maybe, just maybe, Arabs have minds and feelings like the rest of us.

It was a revealing experience, at least for a British journalist rarely exposed to the depths of ignorance and prejudice in the United States on Middle East matters -- well, apart from the regular wackos who fill my email inbox. But five minutes of listening to Horowitz speak, and the sympathy with which his arguments were greeted by Laura (“The Professors -- your book’s a great read, David”), left me a lot more frightened about the world’s future.

Horowitz’s response to every question, every development in the Middle East, whether it concerns Lebanon, the Palestinians, Syria, or Iran, is the same: “They want to drive the Jews into the sea." It’s as simple as that. Not even a superficial attempt at analysis; just the message that the Arab world is trying to finish off the genocide started by Europe. And if Laura is any yardstick, a lot of Americans buy that stuff.
Horowitz is keen to bang the square peg of the Lebanon story into the round hole of his claims that the “Jews” are facing an imminent genocide in the Middle East. And to help him, he and the massed ranks of US apologists for Israel -- regulars, I suspect, of shows like Laura’s -- are promoting at least four myths regarding Hezbollah’s current rockets strikes on Israel. Unless they are challenged at every turn, the danger is that they will win the ground war against common sense in the US

The first myth is that Israel was forced to pound Lebanon with its military hardware because Hezbollah began “raining down” rockets on the Galilee. Anyone with a short memory can probably recall that was not the first justification we were offered: that had to do with the two soldiers captured by Hezbollah on a border post on July 12.

But presumably Horowitz and his friends realized that 400 Lebanese dead and counting in little more than a week was hard to sell as a “proportionate” response. In any case Hezbollah kept telling the world how keen it was to return the soldiers in a prisoner swap.

Hundreds of dead in Lebanon, at least 1,000 severely injured and more than half a million refugees -- all because Israel is not ready to sit down at the negotiating table. Even Horowitz could not “advocate for Israel” on that one.
So the chronology of war has been reorganized: now we are being told that Israel was forced to attack Lebanon to defend itself from the barrage of Hezbollah rockets falling on Israeli civilians. The international community is buying the argument hook, line, and sinker. “Israel has the right to defend itself," says every politician who can find a microphone to talk into.

But, if we cast our minds back, that is not how the “Middle East crisis," as TV channels now describe it, started. It is worth recapping on those early events (and I won’t document the long history of Lebanese suffering at Israel’s hands that preceded it) before they become entirely shrouded in the mythology being peddled by Horowitz and others.

Early on July 12 Hezbollah launched a raid against an army border post, in what was in the best interpretation a foolhardy violation of Israeli sovereignty. In the fighting the Shiite militia killed three soldiers and captured two others, while Hezbollah fired a few mortars at border areas in what the Israeli army described at the time as “diversionary tactics." As a result of the shelling, five Israelis were “lightly injured," with most needing treatment for shock, according to Haaretz.

Israel’s immediate response was to send a tank into Lebanon in pursuit of the Hezbollah fighters (its own foolhardy violation of Lebanese sovereignty). The tank ran over a landmine, which exploded, killing four soldiers inside. Another soldier died in further clashes inside Lebanon as his unit tried to retrieve the bodies.

Rather than open diplomatic channels to calm the violence down and start the process of getting its soldiers back, Israel launched bombing raids deep into Lebanese territory the same day. Given Israel’s worldview that it alone has a right to project power and fear, that might have been expected.

But the next day Israel continued its rampage across the south and into Beirut, where the airport, roads, bridges, and power stations were pummelled. We now know from reports in the US media that the Israeli army had been planning such a strike against Lebanon for at least a year.

In contrast to the image of Hezbollah frothing at the mouth to destroy Israel, its leader Hassan Nasrallah held off from serious retaliation. For the first day and a half, he limited his strikes to the northern borders areas, which have faced Hezbollah attacks in the past and are well protected.

He waited till late on June 13 before turning his guns on Haifa, even though we now know he could have targeted Israel’s third largest city from the outset. A small volley of rockets directed at Haifa caused no injuries and looked more like a warning than an escalation.

It was another three days -- days of constant Israeli bombardment of Lebanon, destroying the country and injuring countless civilians -- before Nasrallah hit Haifa again, including a shell that killed eight workers in a railway depot.

No one should have been surprised. Nasrallah was doing exactly what he had threatened to do if Israel refused to negotiate and chose the path of war instead. Although the international media quoted his ominous televised message that “Haifa is just the beginning," Nasrallah in fact made his threat conditional on Israel’s continuing strikes against Lebanon. In the same speech he warned: “As long as the enemy pursues its aggression without limits and red lines, we will pursue the confrontation without limits and red lines.” Well, Israel did, and so now has Nasrallah.

The second myth is that Hezbollah’s stockpile of 12,000 rockets -- the Israeli army’s estimate -- poses an existential threat to Israel. According to Horowitz and others, Hezbollah collected its armory with the sole intent of destroying the Jewish state.

If this really was Hezbollah’s intention in amassing the weapons, it has a very deluded view of what is required to wipe Israel off the map. More likely, it collected the armory in the hope that it might prove a deterrence -- even if a very inadequate one, as Lebanon is now discovering -- against a repeat of Israel’s invasions of 1978 and 1982, and the occupation that lasted nearly two decades afterwards.

In fact, according to other figures supplied by the Israeli army, at least 2,000 Hezbollah rockets have already been fired into Israel while the army’s bombardments have so far destroyed a further 2,000 rockets. In other words, northern Israel has already received a fifth of Hezbollah’s arsenal. As someone living in the north, and within range of the rockets, I have to say Israel does not look close to being expunged. The Galilee may be emptier, as up to third of Israeli Jews seek temporary refuge in the south, but Israel’s existence is in no doubt at all.

The third myth is that, while Israel is trying to fight a clean war by targeting only terrorists, Hezbollah prefers to bring death and destruction on innocents by firing rockets at Israeli civilians.

It is amazing that this myth even needs exploding, but after the efforts of Horowitz and Co. it most certainly does. As the civilian death toll in Lebanon has skyrocketed, international criticism of Israel has remained at the mealy-mouthed level of diplomatic requests for “restraint” and “proportionate responses."

One need only cast a quick eye over the casualty figures from this conflict to see that if Israel is targeting only Hezbollah fighters it has been making disastrous miscalculations. So far some 400 Lebanese civilians are reported dead -- unfortunately for Horowitz’s story at least a third of them children. From the images coming out of Lebanon’s hospitals, many more children have survived but with terrible burns or disabling injuries.

The best estimates, though no one knows for sure, are that Hezbollah deaths are not yet close to the three-figures range.

In the latest emerging news from Lebanon, human rights groups are accusing Israel of violating international law and using cluster grenades, which kill indiscriminately. There are reports too, so far unconfirmed, that Israel has been firing illegal incendiary bombs.

Conversely, the breakdown of the smaller number of deaths of Israelis at the hands of Hezbollah -- 42 at the time of writing -- show that more soldiers have been killed than civilians.

In fact, although no one is making the point, Hezbollah’s rockets have been targeted overwhelming at strategic locations: the northern economic hub of Haifa, its satellite towns and the array of military sites across the Galilee.

Nasrallah seems fully aware that Israel has an impressive civil defense program of shelters that keep most civilians out of harm’s way. Unlike Horowitz I won’t presume to read Nasrallah’s mind: whether he wants to kill large numbers of Israeli civilians or not cannot be known, given his inability to do so.

But we can see from the choice of the sites he is striking that his primary goal is to give Israelis a small taste of the disruption of normal life that is being endured by the Lebanese. He has effectively closed Haifa for more than a week, shutting its port and financial centers. Israeli TV is speaking increasingly of the damage being inflicted on the country’s economy.

Because of Israel’s press censorship laws, it is impossible to discuss the locations of Israel’s military installations. But Hezbollah’s rockets are accurate enough to show that many are intended for the army’s sites in the Galilee, even if they are rarely precise enough to hit them.

It is obvious to everyone in Nazareth, for example, that the rockets landing close by, and once on, the city over the past week are searching out, and some have fallen extremely close to, the weapons factory sited near us.

Hezbollah seems to have as little concern for the collateral damage of civilian deaths as Israel -- each wants the balance of terror in its favor -- but it is nonsense to suggest that Hezbollah’s goals are any more ignoble than Israel’s. It is trying to dent the economy of northern Israel in retaliation for Israel’s total destruction of the Lebanese economy. Equally, it is trying to show Israel that it knows where its military installations are to be found. Both strategies appear to be having an impact, even if a minor one, on weakening Israeli resolve.

The fourth myth is a continuation of the third: Hezbollah has been endangering the lives of ordinary Lebanese by hiding among non-combatants.

We have seen this kind of dissembling by Israel and Horowitz before, though not repeated so enthusiastically by Western officials. The UN head of humanitarian affairs, Jan Egeland, who is in the region, accused Hezbollah of “cowardly blending” among the civilian population, and a similar accuation was levelled by the British foreign minister Kim Howells when he arrived in Israel.

In 2002 Israel made the same charge: that Palestinians resisting its army’s rampage through the refugee camps of the West Bank were hiding among civilians. The claim grew louder as more Palestinian civilians showed the irritating habit of gettting in the way of Israeli strikes against population centers. The complaints reached a crescendo when at least two dozen civilians were killed in Jenin as Israel razed the camp with Apache helicopters and Caterpillar bulldozers.

The implication of Egeland’s cowardly statement seems to be that any Lebanese fighter, or Palestinian one, resisting Israel and its powerful military should stand in an open field, his rifle raised to the sky, waiting to see who fares worse in a shoot-out with an Apache helicopter or F-16 fighter jet. Hezbollah’s reluctance to conduct the war in this manner, we are supposed to infer, is proof that they are terrorists.

Egeland and Howells need reminding that Hezbollah’s fighters are not aliens recently arrived from training camps in Iran, whatever Horowitz claims. They belong to and are strongly supported by the Shiite community, nearly half the country’s population, and many other Lebanese. They have families, friends, and neighbors living alongside them in the country’s south and the neighborhoods of Beirut who believe Hezbollah is the best hope of defending their country from Israel’s regular onslaughts.

Given the indigenous nature of Hezbollah’s resistance, we should not be surprised at the lengths the Shiite militia is going to ensure their loved ones, and the Lebanese people more generally, are not put directly in danger by their combat.

If only the same could be said of the Israeli army and airforce. One need only look at the images of the victims of its strikes against residential neighborhoods, cars, ambulances, and factories to see why most of the dead being extracted from the rubble are civilians.

And finally, there is a fifth myth I almost forgot to mention. That people like David Horowitz only want to tell us the truth…

Jonathan Cook is a writer and journalist based in Nazareth, Israel. His book “Blood and Religion: The Unmasking of the Jewish and Democatic State” is published by Pluto Press. His website is www.jkcook.net

[Durandal]

The question should be:

"Will the world LET Israel win?"

[Zeev]

The question should be:

"Will the world LET Israel win?"

will the world want to be nuked? :)

[Durandal]

will the world want to be nuked? :)

If Israel used nukes first, I could care less what the world did to it.

[Beaufort]

will the world want to be nuked? :)


Edited:

Post in English only.

[frenchy]

will the world want to be nuked? :)

Stupid question. You don't help your country with such answers.

[Zeev]

Stupid question. You don't help your country with such answers.

what I wanted to make understand is that israel is not serbia - I precise that I had a LOT of respect for serbia - anyone who wants to attack us know very well that it could be very dramatic for him...

what the international community can do with some countries cant be done with israel, thats all, so to the question ""Will the world LET Israel win?" there's an other question; "anyway, what the world can do?" the world should just stfu and mind of his own business, thats all...

[Kampfbaer]

At least the media war is lost for Israel and the damage in foreign relations is still to be seen.

With every bomb dropped and rocket fired it will be harder to bring peace and stability to the region.

[Freibier]

Israel lost the war in Qana, imho.

[tanks_alot]

what I wanted to make understand is that israel is not serbia - I precise that I had a LOT of respect for serbia - anyone who wants to attack us know very well that it could be very dramatic for him...

what the international community can do with some countries cant be done with israel, thats all, so to the question ""Will the world LET Israel win?" there's an other question; "anyway, what the world can do?" the world should just stfu and mind of his own business, thats all...

Will you relax already...? The question is not whether Israel will be attacked.... but until when we will have political legitimacy to continue the operation, Israel can't afford to completely alienate itself from the rest of the world.

making comments like: "we got nukes! no one tells us what to do!" are stupid, childish, ridicoules, detached from reality and will do little to serve your point.

[Zeev]

making comments like: "we got nukes! no one tells us what to do!" are stupid, childish, ridicoules, detached from reality and will do little to serve your point.

isn't it a guarantee for the existance of israel? directly or indirectly, the israeli military power had an importance on the international scene... and this is valid for all the countries of the world..

your ripost capacities influence the way that the rest of the world treat you, thats all....

[frenchy]

I'm very pessimistic for israelis.

I noticed something.

Israel left gaza. What was their reward ? kassam rockets.

Israel left lebanon. What was their reward ? Hezbollah has built bunkers brought a lot of weapons and began to strike Israel.

I'm realistic, until re-occupying these territories or put a real international force, israelis will live under rockets. And each year range of rockets are improving so it will be harder and harder to live in peace for israelis.

I wonder until when the Israelis support that. I'm afraid that one day they will use mass destruction weapons to protect themselves.

[tanks_alot]

isn't it a guarantee for the existance of israel? directly or indirectly, the israeli military power had an importance on the international scene... and this is valid for all the countries of the world..

your ripost capacities influence the way that the rest of the world treat you, thats all....

It works just fine as a deterrence aginst countries that want to destroy Israel but there is a VERY big diffrence between using one's nuclear capabilities to achieve political goals.

it sounds more like you are describing north Korea than Israel.

[Durandal]

what I wanted to make understand is that israel is not serbia - I precise that I had a LOT of respect for serbia - anyone who wants to attack us know very well that it could be very dramatic for him...

what the international community can do with some countries cant be done with israel, thats all, so to the question ""Will the world LET Israel win?" there's an other question; "anyway, what the world can do?" the world should just stfu and mind of his own business, thats all...

Heheheh you said Serbia.

Sorry there kid, Israel is a nation. If the world decides to put Israel on the greatest hits list it can, like it or not.

For instance, China and Russia could stop doing arms deals with Israel...a major cash cow for that nation.

A nation has to eat and trade. You can billy bad-ass all you want but if other nations say stop or else, then you better think twice.

No one is going to bomb Israel, but if there is enough pressure things could get lean on the economic side and Israel is NOT in the best shape in that regard.

So cut the nationalistic bull$hit...

[Mastermind]

Israel lost the war in Qana, imho.

So...You bought the story that the Israelis just fly about and drop 500 kilo bombs on innocent little civilians. You ignored the story out of hand that the Hezzis were firing kaushas from the front yard and the jets immediately targeted the rocket launcher. You would then blow off the story I saw tonight where a local man pointed out (via translator) the Hezzis had rounded up several families, put them in the house and forced them to stay in the house while they fired the rockets and ran. Funny how you just jump to the conclusion that the Israelis just dump bombs willy-nilly on people who could not possibly harm them during this time of national crisis. The local guy must be lying and the Israeli hating commentators from CNN must be totally telling the entire "true" story of exactly what happened...even though they were'nt there at all.

I wonder what mental gymnasitcs one has to go through to find the Hezzi murdering savages blameless in this whole affair. I wonder what sort of tales you will be swallowing when the Hezzis or people like them come to your front door some day.? MM

[BPEL]

You would then blow off the story I saw tonight where a local man pointed out (via translator) the Hezzis had rounded up several families, put them in the house and forced them to stay in the house while they fired the rockets and ran.

duuuude....you crack me up.

Please continue...

[BPEL]

I don't see how israel can afford to lose

Unfortunately, with this action, Israel just made Nasrallah GOD. They repeat the same mistakes again and again. Multi Billion dollars of U.S. tax payers money supplied the most sophisticated weapons $ can buy, and yet Israel has yet to accomplish the missions.

The only losers in this stupid war are the civilians. There are no winners, but in the minds of Arabs, Hizballahs are turning into SuperHeros. Which means one thing, they are the winners.

[Kitsune]

Regarding Qana, a quote of Talleyrand comes to mind:

"C'est plus qu'un crime, c'est une faute!"

[DeltaWhisky58]

lol i dont really care if lebanon will be destroyed by nuclear bomb

A totally unnecessary and stupid remark - come on, wise up a bit or go away!

[Jaguar]

A cease-fire would be under U.N. auspices. Gee, thanks. No U.N. force would protect Israel's interests, but plenty of U.N. contingents would cooperate with or turn a blind eye to the terrorists. Think Russia's an honest broker? Ask its Jews who fled to Israel. Would French troops protect Israeli interests? Ask the Jews Vichy bureaucrats packed off to the death camps. (The French are more anti-Semitic than the Germans - just less efficient.)


Amazingly frightening:

1 - The way The Holocaust is used to justify a "we are all by ourselfes" mentality;

2 - This very mentality just justify the "we can do all and f$ the world" way of thinking.

[Mailman]

Israel lost the war in Qana, imho.

Spare me the bleating. Israel is in a no win situation regardless of what ever they do.

Mailman

[frenchy]

Neither israel neither hezbollah will win.

But it's sure that israeli and lebanese civilians will be the losers.:-(

Just found an interesting article.

http://www.news.com.au/heraldsun/story/0,,19955774-5007220,00.html

[ZeroZen]

Sure Israel could win but with the rules of war, protections of its civilians.
Its like a playing handicap match.

[Mastermind]

Unfortunately, with this action, Israel just made Nasrallah GOD. They repeat the same mistakes again and again. Multi Billion dollars of U.S. tax payers money supplied the most sophisticated weapons $ can buy, and yet Israel has yet to accomplish the missions.

The only losers in this stupid war are the civilians. There are no winners, but in the minds of Arabs, Hizballahs are turning into SuperHeros. Which means one thing, they are the winners.

Repeat the same mistakes? Okay...how do you win against this kind of barbarity where your enemy uses innocent human beings as shields or just blatantly murders them in pizza parlors, buses and trains? They deliberately wear civilian clothing...mingle with civilians,...leaunch their missiles from civilian homes and businesses...store their weapons in stores and mosques...Please, tell me what the Israelis or any nation is supposed to do that will defend against this kind of barbaic onslaught that is well designed to sway liberal minded media and civilized societies that are not under direct threat ...YET?

Is there a defense against it without "losing" the PR war? Which is more important...losing the PR war or losing your nation and surrendering to such monsters that hang little girls, saw off people's head on international television and who are publically sworn to utterly destroy your nation and ALL of your nation's people?

Until your own nation is under assault from these lunatics, you will answer with some sophisticated, nuanced, humanitarian non-answer...something lamely based on "negotiation" and "peaceful co-existance" and then you will blame the victims and justify the killers based on some obscure grievance from remote history classes.

Quit trying to consider there is a no-win situation here. This situation is completely winnable. But, you refuse to face the fact that in order to "WIN" it, something horrible must happen...something the terrorist organizations around the world are trying to ignite. You can not believe there is no other way. But, facing the facts of the situation, you realize, Israel is already using unbelievable restraint while her very existance is threatened as it has never before been threatened. Using restraint as no other nation on this earth would be expected to use...no Muslim nation and certainly no democratic nation would be expected to endure this constant barage of high explosives and murdering of citizens.

She will "Win" this eventually and her methods will not be pleaseing to people sitting in their nice secure air conditioned flat eating their cheerios and strawberries reading about it in the morning papers...As if Israel really gives a damn about their tidy, delicate "feelings" anyway while the butcher's knife is at her throat.

MM

[BPEL]

MM,

War on terrorism will not be won by force. Today's war is not fought in the battle fields as we see in Iraq, Aphganistan, Somalia, Gaza, West Bank, and now Southern Lebanon. War in Iraq is not looking good, all we (the U.S.) are creating is more anger and more sorrow for people to come back for more blood on those "aggressors"

Israel has yet to win its war on terror in the areas of Gaza and the West Bank. You can take away missiles, and weapons from them, but you can't take away hope and the will to die for whatever they have left.

Israel keeps doubling its bets in Lebanon by every step of the way. It chose to take this to the very end. You can never eliminate Hizbullah or any other crazy ideology by force. They will simply return with vengeance and revenge because they have the will to do it.

Eventually, Israel has no choice but to go back into negotiations. The only way to solve this is through dialogue. Southern Lebanon is turning into Israel's Iraq where there is no exit strategy.

[Freibier]

Israel must go back to the border of 67, give up all the occupied territories, quit they hypocritical whining and start to realise that their policy of dictating peace terms has failed.
That is if they want peace - otherwise the holy land will stay the ****hole that it is indefinately.

[Switek]

Israel must win and broke all Iranian teeth (Hamas, HZ) for our own good...

[DeltaWhisky58]

MM,

War on terrorism will not be won by force. Today's war is not fought in the battle fields as we see in Iraq, Aphganistan, Somalia, Gaza, West Bank, and now Southern Lebanon. War in Iraq is not looking good, all we (the U.S.) are creating is more anger and more sorrow for people to come back for more blood on those "aggressors"

Israel has yet to win its war on terror in the areas of Gaza and the West Bank. You can take away missiles, and weapons from them, but you can't take away hope and the will to die for whatever they have left.

Israel keeps doubling its bets in Lebanon by every step of the way. It chose to take this to the very end. You can never eliminate Hizbullah or any other crazy ideology by force. They will simply return with vengeance and revenge because they have the will to do it.

Eventually, Israel has no choice but to go back into negotiations. The only way to solve this is through dialogue. Southern Lebanon is turning into Israel's Iraq where there is no exit strategy.

What planet are you on? Isn't it time you put your cards on the table rather than posting this rubbish?

[Beaufort]

Israel must go back to the border of 67, give up all the occupied territories, quit they hypocritical whining and start to realise that their policy of dictating peace terms has failed.
That is if they want peace - otherwise the holy land will stay the ****hole that it is indefinately.

Israel wasn't in Lebanon since the year 2000, yet that didn't prevent Hizbollah from carrying out provocations along the border.

Provocations which reached their peak some three weeks ago with the shelling of our border communities and the attack on the border patrol (and the abduction of the two soldiers).

Israel wasn't in the Gaza Strip since the summer of 2005.

However since then the Gaza Palestinians have been shelling our civilians on more or less a daily basis.

Just like with Lebanon, the camel's back broke with the attack at Kerem Shalom (and the abduction of Gilad Shalit).

Ironically the most quiet place right now is the West Bank which is still under our control in most parts.

A lot of Europeans should start reminding themselves that this conflict has existed since before 1967.

[Teaser]

israel cant win. As a matter of fact they already lost. Take a look on CNN how people are burning US and Israeli flags. Hezbollah won all the support from the Islamic world since Israel continues Terrorist attacks on Apartment buildings and bombing UN posts and what ever they feel like.


ON THE BATTLEFIELD. Israel is the stronger side but that wont stop Hezbollah since after what israel did in Qana Hezbollah has thousands of more recruits ready to get back at Israel.


JUST SAYING THE TRUTH.

[Zeev]

israel cant win. As a matter of fact they already lost. Take a look on CNN how people are burning US and Israeli flags.

absolutely, we all know that wars are win with burned flags :lol:

[Kaplanr]

Had Israel applied the ground tactics we're using now 3 weeks ago, we wouldn't be here 3 weeks later talking about it.

The initial ground responses were tentative and cautious and we paid.

[Beaufort]

Had Israel applied the ground tactics we're using now 3 weeks ago, we wouldn't be here 3 weeks later talking about it.

The initial ground responses were tentative and cautious and we paid.

Actually I am of the opinion that an initial aerial campaign to weaken Hizbollah was a good decision. I'd rather have this war last longer and with less casualties.

[Javehn]

Something I feel everybody should read (and spread)

http://www.lebanese-forces.org/vbullet/showthread.php?t=19400

[Eddy]

absolutely, we all know that wars are win with burned flags :lol:

You are stupid.

[BPEL]

Israel wasn't in Lebanon since the year 2000, yet that didn't prevent Hizbollah from carrying out provocations along the border.


I wonder what those F15s are that keep violating Lebanese airspace. :bash:

[tanks_alot]

I wonder what those F15s are that keep violating Lebanese airspace. :bash:

Yeah they were just doing that out of spite right? nothing to do with responding to Hezbollah attacks....

[BPEL]

What planet are you on? Isn't it time you put your cards on the table rather than posting this rubbish?

Please do provide details on how Israel will solve its own internal problems. More walls in the West Bank? more settlements in the West Bank? More target killing of men in Gaza who have "blood on their hands"?

They have been trying for years and no success. I am glad you consider Dialogue rubbish. You do understand that you can't compromise a compromise, how do you expect Palestinians to live under conditions where everything as air, water and the resources are not to be touched? Israel has turned the West Bank into Ghettos" Area A and Area B. They want to impose conditions inside Lebanon too as settling the Palestinians in Lebanon and make them permanent residences and mess up the dynamics of the population of that country.

[BPEL]

Yeah they were just doing that out of spite right? nothing to do with responding to Hezbollah attacks....

Eversince Israel withdrew, almost daily incursions of these planes over Lebanon.

[DeltaWhisky58]

Guys - this thread is not here for you to post stupid comments. It is pretty damned obvious for example why the F-15s are flying over Lebanese airspace.

I'm going to start taking action against flamers w.e.f. now - you have been warned.

[BPEL]

This is just one of them, notice the date of the report at the U.N.

This is not flaming, just making a point:

http://www.un.org/documents/ga/docs/56/a56762.pdf

[mountainbear]

Israel must go back to the border of 67, give up all the occupied territories, quit they hypocritical whining and start to realise that their policy of dictating peace terms has failed.
That is if they want peace - otherwise the holy land will stay the ****hole that it is indefinately.

If Israel goes back to its 67 borders the next step could be going back to the UN partition borders of 1947. The story might never end. Someone has to have a clear victory so the other side sucks it up, and for the sake of the western world it better be the Israeli democracy and not an Islamic extremist group. Well that’s my opinion.

[Clarsachier]

Key Republican breaks with Bush on Mideast

by asserting that Isreal should return to the '67 boundries.


Hagel urged the administration to revive the Beirut Declaration of 2002,

http://www.cnn.com/2006/POLITICS/07/31/hagel.mideast/index.html

But as usual, Bush alone out of all the world's leaders is pushing for terms solely beneficial to Israel. In contradiction to his own declaration on 24 May, 05, http://www.whitehouse.gov/news/releases/2005/05/20050526.html
and in contradiction to all U.S. policy up to this point regarding the borders.

[Mastermind]

Why not push for terms beneficial to israel alone? The Israelis are NOT the aggressors here. They were the ones attacked. If there is any compromise at all, it merely rewards the aggressors...there was nothing to negotiate in the beginning of all this...why negotiate anything "after the attack"? This is like negotiating with a burglar after he has been caught over what part of your property he should be allowed to keep! It's an absurd idea that could only make sense to a terrorist sympathiser.MM

[frenchy]

What was the real goal of IDF in baalbek operation ? Because IDF said it was a success, but they captured junior militants according to several sources.

And what about effectiveness of idf operations ?

Always tons of rockets in Israel this morning.

If israelis can't stop rockets, how do they want to end this conflict ?

Because international community doesn't want to do the dirty job against hezbollah.

[Snoshi]

What was the real goal of IDF in baalbek operation ? Because IDF said it was a success, but they captured junior militants according to several sources.

And what about effectiveness of idf operations ?

Always tons of rockets in Israel this morning.

If Israelis can't stop rockets, how do they want to end this conflict ?

Because international community doesn't want to do the dirty job against Hezbollah.

Goal of op in Baalbek is unknown ATM... some sources say they got junior members some say they got higher ranked.

2nd: Today IDF will start pushing deeper in into Lebanon, because the reserves have arrived.

3rd:Rockets cant be stopped without deep ground incursion.

[frenchy]

Goal of op in Baalbek is unknown ATM... some sources say they got junior members some say they got higher ranked.

2nd: Today IDF will start pushing deeper in into Lebanon, because the reserves have arrived.

3rd:Rockets cant be stopped without deep ground incursion.

israeli guys, good luck, if you must go to the front.:|

[Kitsune]

Who is the aggressor in this conflict is somewhat debatable. Israels claim "to defend itself" is a bit odd, since it was not really threatened. At least as the existence of the state of Israel is concerned, you can say that Israel was never (neither in 1948, 1967, 1973 or 1982) as safe as it is today (or was three weeks ago). And, regarding the possibility of Israeli citizens being injured or killed, the danger for Lebanese citzens being killed or injured by Israelis was and is always much higher than the other way around.
The state that is at present suffering the most in this conflict is Lebanon, it is its infrastructure that is (downright systematically) degraded, and here 700.000+ people have been made refugees and not in Israel. Let's not forget this. And the whole conflict we have, would simply not have happened if Israel would have reacted more moderately.
Just that I am understood correctly here: this is not meant as flaming. Its just meant to undermine the notion that the question "who is the aggressor here?" might be somewhat more complicated than some here seem to think. This "its Hezbollahs fault and only theirs" may be the official Israeli position, but it is simply not the truth.

Another point is the nature of Hezbollah itself. Contrary to what some here seem to believe, this is no simple bunch of savage, fanatic nutcases. Hezbollah has committed some radical acts in the past (especially the suicide attacks of 1983 that costed the lives of more than 250 Marines and more than 50 French Paras come to mind). But they have stopped these kinds of actions quite some time ago. Since more than 10 years Hezbollah doesn't use suicide attacks anymore. Of course, they use Guerilla methods and their opposition to the existence of the state of Israel is no secret. But it should be noted that they are not the guys who constantly blow themselves up in the mids of Israelis Kindergarten classes.

Another point. As it is known, Hezbollah basically rules Southern Lebanon. De facto, they have founded a small religious state of their own. It is important to note, that they do this largely with the consent of the local population. They have schools, hospitals and other means to help people and the Shiite in Lebanon are usually thankful for it. Also, non-shiites are treated with reasonable tolerance. Women keep their hair hidden but don't have to hide their face. There are no executions in sportarenas, music isn't forbidden, men who don't wear beards aren't shot. In short: Hezbollah aren't Taliban.

Once again I am in danger of being misunderstood. I don't mean to praise the "party of God" here. But one has to understand that we are speaking about a group here that, while certainly being a problem for the West and even more for Israel, is not entirely uncivilized and has considerable support within the local population. (And possible even more support now than before the Israelis started their operations.) And this is the big problem for anyone who thinks that he could destroy Hezbollah with some military action by simply killing number of x guys holding an AK. This will not work, because simply, where Shiits are in Lebanon there is Hezbollah.

In the end it means that it is not very rational to refuse to talk to Hezbollah to get over this crisis. The problem that Israel has at present, is of course how to get out of this mess (which in my opinion they have to blame themselves for) with some dignity. I am pretty convinced that the Israeli government is at present frantically searching for a way to abseil down themselves out of this conflict. To reduce their loss of face, they need some kind of military result they can show. But it will be tricky.

[Durandal]

Come on.

If you live on 5 acres and you had a neighbor that had some guests over and were throwing rocks, abducting one of your children, and then shooting a rifle at your home, would you be the aggressor if you decided to defend yourself and get your child back?

[Freibier]

Come on.

If you live on 5 acres and you had a neighbor that had some guests over and were throwing rocks, abducting one of your children, and then shooting a rifle at your home, would you be the aggressor if you decided to defend yourself and get your child back?
It's not that simple

[Beaufort]

Who is the aggressor in this conflict is somewhat debatable. Israels claim "to defend itself" is a bit odd, since it was not really threatened. At least as the existence of the state of Israel is concerned, you can say that Israel was never (neither in 1948, 1967, 1973 or 1982) as safe as it is today (or was three weeks ago).


So Israel is the party that violated an international border in order to kill and abduct soldiers patroling that very border on their contry's side?

Not to mention the shelling of civilian communties in order to create a distraction for this...

If that doesn't answer the defenition of an agressor in your opinion, then I'm sorry to say that you have one heck of a distorted view of this world.

Of course I'm sure you don't mind having Israeli soldiers and civilians pay the price for each time Hizbollah does some "muscle flexing".

Not to mention thousands of rockets pointed right at us.

Israel like any nation has the right to defend its borders and doesn't need an existential threat in order to justify this.



And, regarding the possibility of Israeli citizens being injured or killed, the danger for Lebanese citzens being killed or injured by Israelis was and is always much higher than the other way around.


The difference is that Israeli civilians are the intended target. Plus Israel wouldn't have to operate in or over Lebanon had Hizbollah kept the border quiet.



The state that is at present suffering the most in this conflict is Lebanon, it is its infrastructure that is (downright systematically) degraded, and here 700.000+ people have been made refugees and not in Israel. Let's not forget this. And the whole conflict we have, would simply not have happened if Israel would have reacted more moderately.


Nevermind that a third of Israel is more or less paralyzed, at least over 200,000 Israelis have left their homes while the other 800,000 needed to spend the past three weeks in bomb shelters.

There's even a refugee camp in Nitzanim, but we don't call it that way.

Also, once Germany has two of its soldiers abducted and eight others killed while patroling the country's border while rockets are fired into its territory, maybe then, if I see Germany reacting "moderately" I will take you seriously.

Just love it when people always manage to somehow pin it on Israel.

"Violation of an international border?"

"Cause of war in the form of the abduction of two soldiers and the killing of eight others while shelling civilian communities?"

"Nevermind that shyt, those Jews are actually defending themselves!!!"



Just that I am understood correctly here: this is not meant as flaming. Its just meant to undermine the notion that the question "who is the aggressor here?" might be somewhat more complicated than some here seem to think. This "its Hezbollahs fault and only theirs" may be the official Israeli position, but it is simply not the truth.


And let us all stay toned next week when Kitsune will explain to all of us how it was actually Czechoslovakia and Poland's fault that they got invaded.



Another point is the nature of Hezbollah itself. Contrary to what some here seem to believe, this is no simple bunch of savage, fanatic nutcases. Hezbollah has committed some radical acts in the past (especially the suicide attacks of 1983 that costed the lives of more than 250 Marines and more than 50 French Paras come to mind). But they have stopped these kinds of actions quite some time ago. Since more than 10 years Hezbollah doesn't use suicide attacks anymore. Of course, they use Guerilla methods and their opposition to the existence of the state of Israel is no secret. But it should be noted that they are not the guys who constantly blow themselves up in the mids of Israelis Kindergarten classes.


No, now they just fire rockets at kindergartens...



Another point. As it is known, Hezbollah basically rules Southern Lebanon. De facto, they have founded a small religious state of their own. It is important to note, that they do this largely with the consent of the local population. They have schools, hospitals and other means to help people and the Shiite in Lebanon are usually thankful for it. Also, non-shiites are treated with reasonable tolerance. Women keep their hair hidden but don't have to hide their face. There are no executions in sportarenas, music isn't forbidden, men who don't wear beards aren't shot. In short: Hezbollah aren't Taliban.


And where's Lebanon's sovereignty in all of this?

[Luno]

Come on.

If you live on 5 acres and you had a neighbor that had some guests over and were throwing rocks, abducting one of your children, and then shooting a rifle at your home, would you be the aggressor if you decided to defend yourself and get your child back?

I would also ask my self the question why do my neighbor hate me so much. and what have I done wrong to deserve it? Maybe I shouldn’t have taken some of his land by force etc

It takes two to tango as you know ;-)

[DeltaWhisky58]

Come on guys - this is getting a bit heated and off topic.

Get back in the right direction or you know what happens don't you?

[Elemental666]

Come on guys - this is getting a bit heated and off topic.

Get back in the right direction or you know what happens don't you?

This thread will be closed!!!! i answered first i need a medal.
Anyway,IMHO,we can't win as long we will have the "Make the world happy by using 1% of our force" kinda policy.peace out.

[DeltaWhisky58]

This thread will be closed!!!! i answered first i need a medal.
Anyway,IMHO,we can't win as long we will have the "Make the world happy by using 1% of our force" kinda policy.peace out.

Not necessarily - it's up to you guys.

[Durandal]

It's not that simple

Except it is...

Now, its debatable HOW to go about the act of retribution, disarmament, and control, but the actual thing that caused this to happen is QUITE simple.

[Elemental666]

Except it is...

Now, its debatable HOW to go about the act of retribution, disarmament, and control, but the actual thing that caused this to happen is QUITE simple.

Agreed man,thank you.woot

[mountainbear]

Israel don’t need to crush the entire Hezbollah organisation but only his armed forces, and like Kitsune said they are not a bunch of savage, fanatic nutcases who go and get themselves blown up. They are highly experienced and quite well equipped fighters they also have a perfect knowledge of the area they are fighting in. The loss of these fighters will be / is dramatic to the Hezbollah because they are the ones who enforce its power in South Lebanon (All communities are united now because of the war but it won’t last long like history has proven) and their replacement by new recruits will be difficult in term of quality. In the absence of those fighters it will be much easier for an international force or, even better, the Lebanese Army to take control of south Lebanon. Now will the Hezbollah disappear probably not but a major setback may bring them to have a more political approach.

[tanks_alot]

Who is the aggressor in this conflict is somewhat debatable. Israels claim "to defend itself" is a bit odd, since it was not really threatened. At least as the existence of the state of Israel is concerned, you can say that Israel was never (neither in 1948, 1967, 1973 or 1982) as safe as it is today (or was three weeks ago). And, regarding the possibility of Israeli citizens being injured or killed, the danger for Lebanese citzens being killed or injured by Israelis was and is always much higher than the other way around.
The state that is at present suffering the most in this conflict is Lebanon, it is its infrastructure that is (downright systematically) degraded, and here 700.000+ people have been made refugees and not in Israel. Let's not forget this. And the whole conflict we have, would simply not have happened if Israel would have reacted more moderately.
Just that I am understood correctly here: this is not meant as flaming. Its just meant to undermine the notion that the question "who is the aggressor here?" might be somewhat more complicated than some here seem to think. This "its Hezbollahs fault and only theirs" may be the official Israeli position, but it is simply not the truth.

Another point is the nature of Hezbollah itself. Contrary to what some here seem to believe, this is no simple bunch of savage, fanatic nutcases. Hezbollah has committed some radical acts in the past (especially the suicide attacks of 1983 that costed the lives of more than 250 Marines and more than 50 French Paras come to mind). But they have stopped these kinds of actions quite some time ago. Since more than 10 years Hezbollah doesn't use suicide attacks anymore. Of course, they use Guerilla methods and their opposition to the existence of the state of Israel is no secret. But it should be noted that they are not the guys who constantly blow themselves up in the mids of Israelis Kindergarten classes.

Another point. As it is known, Hezbollah basically rules Southern Lebanon. De facto, they have founded a small religious state of their own. It is important to note, that they do this largely with the consent of the local population. They have schools, hospitals and other means to help people and the Shiite in Lebanon are usually thankful for it. Also, non-shiites are treated with reasonable tolerance. Women keep their hair hidden but don't have to hide their face. There are no executions in sportarenas, music isn't forbidden, men who don't wear beards aren't shot. In short: Hezbollah aren't Taliban.

Once again I am in danger of being misunderstood. I don't mean to praise the "party of God" here. But one has to understand that we are speaking about a group here that, while certainly being a problem for the West and even more for Israel, is not entirely uncivilized and has considerable support within the local population. (And possible even more support now than before the Israelis started their operations.) And this is the big problem for anyone who thinks that he could destroy Hezbollah with some military action by simply killing number of x guys holding an AK. This will not work, because simply, where Shiits are in Lebanon there is Hezbollah.

In the end it means that it is not very rational to refuse to talk to Hezbollah to get over this crisis. The problem that Israel has at present, is of course how to get out of this mess (which in my opinion they have to blame themselves for) with some dignity. I am pretty convinced that the Israeli government is at present frantically searching for a way to abseil down themselves out of this conflict. To reduce their loss of face, they need some kind of military result they can show. But it will be tricky.

Your post is misinformed at best, first of all according to you the only reason Israel would be allowed to go to war is if it's existence was in danger?

i on the other hand see an attack on israeli soil killing and abducting soldiers while shelling civilian towns as a very good reason to go to war, not to mention that those events were simply the straw that broke the camels back after six years of provocation since the 2000 withdrawal.

you also claim our civilians arn't suffering but over a million northen civilians are living in bomb shelters for the last few weeks, maybe if the Hezbollah and the lebanese goverment would have arranged for such shelters in Lebanon, there wouldn't be as much refugees over there.

now here is where you are the most misinformed: you say Hezbollah are not using suicide bombers tactics but it's simply not true, granted they are aimed at military targets but thats probably because they cant reach civilians.
driving into IDF convoys in car bombs was a very popular tactic and the teenager that tried to blow himself up on my armored convoy while we were leaving Lebanon six years ago might have something to say about it as well, unfortuantely only a small part of his belt exploded and he died a slow and very unneceseray death.

Hezbollah are also randomly shelling israeli towns so i really cant see your point, not to mention the bombing in Buenos Aires and the bombing in Israel in 2002 when two Hezbollah terrorists crossed the border, set themselfs near a road and started shooting at cars driving back and forth until soldiers from nearby border outpost came and killed them.

[Mastermind]

It's not that simple

Yes...yes it really is that simple! MM

[tanks_alot]

I would also ask my self the question why do my neighbor hate me so much. and what have I done wrong to deserve it? Maybe I shouldn’t have taken some of his land by force etc

It takes two to tango as you know ;-)

Really? so we should pat them on the head because they cant let go of past wars instead of responding to unprovoked attacks?

would you understand it if we'll decide to nuke Germany? we certainly have alot more reaons to hate them.

you wouldn't understand right? because it's stupid so stop trying to legitamise terror please.;-)

[Mastermind]

Israel don’t need to crush the entire Hezbollah organisation but only his armed forces, and like Kitsune said they are not a bunch of savage, fanatic nutcases who go and get themselves blown up. They are highly experienced and quite well equipped fighters they also have a perfect knowledge of the area they are fighting in. The loss of these fighters will be / is dramatic to the Hezbollah because they are the ones who enforce its power in South Lebanon (All communities are united now because of the war but it won’t last long like history has proven) and their replacement by new recruits will be difficult in term of quality. In the absence of those fighters it will be much easier for an international force or, even better, the Lebanese Army to take control of south Lebanon. Now will the Hezbollah disappear probably not but a major setback may bring them to have a more political approach.

They are not "well experienced" soldiers...they are murdering savages with guns and a willingness to die in their effort to murder...that's their advantage. Anyone can gain experience under fire...anyone can hide behind a tree and detonate a hidden device...anyone can dash here and there into civilian houses and set up rockets to fire into civiliian areas. The initial advantage is always with the ambusher and the hidden sniper. If they were any good as "soldiers" they would be fighitng on a battle field and avoiding civilains as much as possible...these are mere savage bruts with a will to kill and die. IN MY OPINION! MM

[moby]

A quick question since you guys are all better informed and some are closer to the conflict. Why does Israel get blasted for not making sure that Lebanonese cilivilians are not harmed and not Hizbollah. If Hizbollah has made South Lebanon their own then surely it was their responsibility to make sure that all the civilians were evacuated and safe. I know the news media say its because there is no road infrastructure left, but this has not stopped Hisbollah from moving around?

[Beaufort]

Let's not become confusedhttp://www.haaretz.com/hasen/images/0.gif
By Nadav Shragai (nshragai@haaretz.co.il)
http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/images/0.gif
Nathan Alterman, who wrote extensively about purity of arms, wondered many years ago what kind of memorial should be erected for three IDF soldiers -- Hanan Samson, Yossi Kaplan and Boaz Sasson -- who fell while pursuing terrorists, because they were reluctant to harm a nursing mother who stood at the entrance to a cave in the Jordan Valley and behind whom the terrorists were hiding. Should it be an ordinary memorial, like those scattered everywhere else in the country in memory of the fallen in Israel's battles, or perhaps a monument in the shape of a woman with a child at her breast, whose lives the three purchased with their deaths?

Even today, the enemy holds children with one hand and fires on Israeli civilians and soldiers with the other, and the world uses false scales to weigh Israel's morality. Forty years ago, Alterman defined the difference between us and them after the deaths of Samson, Kaplan and Sasson. "There is no question that even by the furthest stretch of our imagination, we would be unable to imagine the possibility of the opposite of what happened during that pursuit. In other words, a situation in which IDF fighters would hide behind Jewish women and children, and use a Jewish nursing mother as camouflage and a hiding place to conceal themselves from Fatah members. IDF soldiers would be incapable of such a thing -- even if we ignore all the other reasons -- first and foremost for the simple reason that a Jewish woman with a baby in her arms is not a 'deterrent factor' for Arab fighters."

What has changed since Alterman's time -- and maybe it's nothing new -- is that not only does the civilian population not constitute a deterrent factor for Hezbollah fighters and for Palestinian terror, but also a civilian population has nearly become their sole target. The IDF, on the other hand, has already sacrificed fighters in Bint Jbail and refrained from massive "target softening" bombing raids from the air in order to avoid killing civilians. In the tragic events of Qana, Hezbollah intentionally set itself up in the heart of civilians, thereby deliberately creating the conditions that led to the disaster.

We cannot become confused and allow the world and ourselves, and particularly the Arab citizens of Israel who live among us, to turn things upside down. Hezbollah, like Palestinian terror, harms women and children with malice in a systematic fashion. We do it rarely and by mistake. These things must be said just because things that are self evident tend to be forgotten.

This war must end in victory and in the disarming of Hezbollah, either by us or by others. That is the line separating victory from a missed opportunity. Prime Minister Ehud Olmert is well aware than anything less that that will only serve to draw the starting line of the next campaign against Hezbollah. That is why he is rightly insisting on a continuation of the fighting, and we must help him repel the internal and external pressures to hold our fire already now.

The prime minister also deserves support when it comes to his policy on the issue of the kidnapped soldiers. The leadership must exercise level-headed considerations of profit and loss, cost and returns, and place them on the scales, even if they are cruel. That is why it was decided to refrain during the first stage of fighting from massive use of ground forces in order to prevent heavy losses to the IDF, and that is how Olmert is behaving on the issue of the kidnapped soldiers as well.

It is not easy to write these words, and I hope that the hostages will return home soon and in good health, but the unequivocal opposition to releasing terrorists in exchange for the hostages, to which Olmert is adhering for the time being, is well anchored in the bloody reality in which we live. Fourteen of the mass terrorist attacks in recent years were carried out by freed terrorists. Dozens of attacks in which hundreds of more people were killed or wounded were also organized by freed terrorists.

Confronting the families of the kidnapped men is certainly a heartrending experience for the prime minister, but he must continue to keep these statistics in mind. Israeli behavior in previous kidnapping cases must constitute a warning light, rather than a precedent on which to rely, God forbid.

Just as we have to end the war differently this time, we also have to try to free the kidnapped men this time in another way or at another price. If this time the considerations of "here and now" also get the upper hand, the blood price of the next round will only increase further

http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/745310.html

[mountainbear]

They are not "well experienced" soldiers...they are murdering savages with guns and a willingness to die in their effort to murder...that's their advantage. Anyone can gain experience under fire...anyone can hide behind a tree and detonate a hidden device...anyone can dash here and there into civilian houses and set up rockets to fire into civiliian areas. The initial advantage is always with the ambusher and the hidden sniper. If they were any good as "soldiers" they would be fighitng on a battle field and avoiding civilains as much as possible...these are mere savage bruts with a will to kill and die. IN MY OPINION! MM

20 years of fight against the PLO, the Christians militias and the Israeli army does not provide any experience in your opinion.

[Raymond of the Desert]

Taking into account that Israel, in 50 years, has developed a western economy from scratch as well as repeatedly humiliated the muslim world that outnumbers them 30-1, its premature to judge how things are going.

The israelis are being methodical. They obviously have a plan. My guess is they want to force the europeans to deploy a real peacekeeping force on the border.

[Durandal]

I would also ask my self the question why do my neighbor hate me so much. and what have I done wrong to deserve it? Maybe I shouldn’t have taken some of his land by force etc

It takes two to tango as you know ;-)

Huh?

Just about every time Israel has taken land its because some dumb Arab or Persian group gets their ass handed to them after STARTING something.

You attack us through the Sinai, then the Sinai is now ours, through force of arms.

You attack us using the Golan heights...well, guess what the heights are ours now.

Man, its like my parents' neighbors. The neighbors' kids were trespassing in my folks yard and throwing rocks at their dogs. The dogs decided enough was enough and bit one of the kids. The parents felt my folks were some how at fault and called the authorities and my parents got a "warning".

Israel gets rocks thrown at it and it bites back and somehow we exepct them to either not do it or do it and give back the rock. Its a joke.

The fact that Israel has given BACK territory and TRIED to work things out make them the victim in the extreme.

Regardless of what you think happened back in 1948 is right or wrong, the establishment of Israel has been made history quite a while ago. Time to get over it.

[Durandal]

Taking into account that Israel, in 50 years, has developed a western economy from scratch as well as repeatedly humiliated the muslim world that outnumbers them 30-1, its premature to judge how things are going.

The israelis are being methodical. They obviously have a plan. My guess is they want to force the europeans to deploy a real peacekeeping force on the border.

About as too the point as you can be.

And a good one too.

[Kitsune]

Durandal wrote:
Come on.

If you live on 5 acres and you had a neighbor that had some guests over and were throwing rocks, abducting one of your children, and then shooting a rifle at your home, would you be the aggressor if you decided to defend yourself and get your child back?

If I would start to systematically destroy the houses of his distant relatives and took into account of killing a couple of them in the process, I am at least not simply a just defender. That is what I meant.

But you are raising another interesting point. I mean, if one is not hopelessly naive, it should be obvious that the heavy-handed action of Israel is by no means helping those two chaps who have been abducted. Quite the opposite: now there is no telling when they will be released. Israel is known for its care for its soldiers (which is the reason why Hezbollah found it so...effective...to kidnap IDF soldiers if they saw a chance) but there is nearly no criticism about this in Israel it seems. A better strategy would have been to keep quite and to negotiate in secret about a release. As things played out, it seems that this time the object of the exercise was NOT to save those two soldiers but to show strength instead, even if it could mean to sacrifice them.

[tanks_alot]

Durandal wrote:

If I would start to systematically destroy the houses of his distant relatives and took into account of killing a couple of them in the process, I am at least not simply a just defender. That is what I meant.

But you are raising another interesting point. I mean, if one is not hopelessly naive, it should be obvious that the heavy-handed action of Israel is by no means helping those two chaps who have been abducted. Quite the opposite: now there is no telling when they will be released. Israel is known for its care for its soldiers (which is the reason why Hezbollah found it so...effective...to kidnap IDF soldiers if they saw a chance) but there is nearly no criticism about this in Israel it seems. A better strategy would have been to keep quite and to negotiate in secret about a release. As things played out, it seems that this time the object of the exercise was NOT to save those two soldiers but to show strength instead, even if it could mean to sacrifice them.

The fighting now will not affect whatever happens to the kidnapped soldiers, Hezbollah knows better than to hurt them, if they were even captured and not killed during the fight, the same as what happend in 2000.

[Luno]

Really? so we should pat them on the head because they cant let go of past wars instead of responding to unprovoked attacks?

would you understand it if we'll decide to nuke Germany? we certainly have alot more reaons to hate them.

you wouldn't understand right? because it's stupid so stop trying to legitamise terror please.;-)

What i did try to say where that there is reason for both sides to be mad . and i am not saying that i support the idiots in Hezbollah or terror attacks

[Luno]

Huh?

Just about every time Israel has taken land its because some dumb Arab or Persian group gets their ass handed to them after STARTING something.

You attack us through the Sinai, then the Sinai is now ours, through force of arms.

You attack us using the Golan heights...well, guess what the heights are ours now.

Man, its like my parents' neighbors. The neighbors' kids were trespassing in my folks yard and throwing rocks at their dogs. The dogs decided enough was enough and bit one of the kids. The parents felt my folks were some how at fault and called the authorities and my parents got a "warning".

Israel gets rocks thrown at it and it bites back and somehow we exepct them to either not do it or do it and give back the rock. Its a joke.

The fact that Israel has given BACK territory and TRIED to work things out make them the victim in the extreme.

Regardless of what you think happened back in 1948 is right or wrong, the establishment of Israel has been made history quite a while ago. Time to get over it.


I agree with everything you say and i have personally no problem with Israel defending her self against terrorist. the reason behind my post where to show you one example why the neighbors did hate him..
I didn’t say it where a good reason or that I did support it , but it is one of the reason that the enemy of Israel use

[Mastermind]

20 years of fight against the PLO, the Christians militias and the Israeli army does not provide any experience in your opinion.

Nope! Here's why...Fighting PLO is one bunch of thugs against another...like one mafia family murdering members of another...all vendetta and murder by surprise. Fighting the "Christians" is another...occassional fierce, sharp and short fights from one street to another, massacres of innocent people as retribution and raiding refugee camps might make you an experienced murderer...but not a SOLDIER!

Their fights with IDF were all ambushes for the most part and detonating mines and IEDs...as I said, anyone can do that if they are willing to die to do it. Saying that kind of experience makes you a soldier is like saying being a Kamakazi pilot makes you a fighter pilot or bomber pilot.

They claimed a huge victory when Israel left under the belief the UN would take care of things...it didn't work out, did it? To the surprise of no one.

Yes, they are killers and as such they should be respected as potentially lethal...I would personally hate having to go in and clean them out...very, very dangerous But, to be a well trained, disciplined soldier capable of maneuver and group battle tactics you have have more than the ability to hurl rockets indiscriminately at civilians and snipe a few soldeirs or detonate a mine here and there.

IN MY OPINION! MM

[Clarsachier]

not sanctioned by the Israeli government, (as all other media from the region is) and from someone who's actually there - try this :

The Human Shields of Nazareth

by Jonathan Cook

Antiwar.com

July 19, 2006

Nazareth hit the international headlines for the first time in this vicious war being waged by Israel mostly on Lebanese civilians. Reporter Matthew Price, corseted in a blue flak jacket in Haifa, told BBC viewers that for the first time Hezbollah had targeted Nazareth late on Sunday. "Nazareth is a mostly Christian town," he added, managing to cram into a single sentence of a few words two factual mistakes and a disturbing hint of incitement.

Whatever the precision of its rockets (and Nazareth's residents are certainly worried enough about that), Hezbollah struck not at Nazareth but at a site some distance from Nazareth – a site of strategic significance to Israel, though I cannot say more than that as we are now officially under martial law in the country's north.

Matthew Price was also wrong about Nazareth being a "mostly Christian town." During the 1948 war in which Israel's army ethnically cleansed much of the surrounding area of Palestinians, Muslim villagers fled to Nazareth in search of sanctuary. Today, two-thirds of the city's 75,000 inhabitants are Muslim – or at least they are by the religious classification system imposed on all citizens by the Israeli authorities.

Which brings us to the nasty element of incitement from our BBC reporter.

Several Israeli armaments factories and storage depots have been built close by Arab communities in the north of Israel, possibly in the hope that by locating them there Arab regimes will be deterred from attacking Israel's enormous armory. In other words, the inhabitants of several of Israel's Arab towns and villages have been turned into collective human shields – protection for Israel's war machine.

Before the strike close to Nazareth late on Sunday night, several Arab villages in the north had been hit by Hezbollah rockets trying to reach these factories. No one at the BBC saw the need to mention these attacks nor the fact that "mostly Muslim" villages had been hit. So why did the strike against Nazareth – and its mistaken Christian status – became part of the story for the BBC?

Because Israel wants to portray Hezbollah, and its leader Sheik Hassan Nasrallah, as a crazed Islamic militia, as fanatical Muslims who hate Jews and Christians with equal vehemence. This is all part of Israel's claim that it is fighting George Bush's "war on terror." Predictably, the BBC obliged by regurgitating this piece of racist nonsense.

If anybody still doubts that Israel is shaping the news agenda of broadcasters like the BBC, here was as good as the proof.
*****

According to the jingoistic Jerusalem Post, the Israeli Prime Minister's Office and the army are delirious at their success in dictating the headlines and tone of foreign news broadcasts.

Ehud Olmert's media adviser, Assif Shariv, told the Post that the international media were interviewing Israeli spokespeople four times as much as spokespeople for the Palestinians and Lebanese. Another government adviser, Gideon Meir, boasted: "We have never had it so good. The hasbara [propaganda] effort is a well-oiled machine."

Which may explain why we know so little about what is happening in Lebanon and Gaza – and why we know so little about what is happening inside Israel too.

To remind you, I, like other residents of northern Israel, am under martial law. As are the foreign journalists – and in addition they are required to submit their copy to the military censor. So all I can tell you, without breaking the law, is that you are not getting the entire picture of what has been happening here in the Galilee.

Certainly, a piece of news that I doubt you will hear from the foreign media, although bravely the liberal Hebrew media has been drawing attention to the matter, is that the "only democracy in the Middle East" has all but silenced al-Jazeera from reporting inside Israel.

The reason is clear: until recently al-Jazeera had been running rings around the local and foreign press.

Al-Jazeera is the Arab world's most serious and popular news gatherer, and essential viewing for anyone who wants to get a realistic idea of the news from both sides of the border. When I heard the missile strike close by Nazareth on Sunday night, al-Jazeera told me what had happened a full half hour before the Israeli media, and a day before my colleague Matthew Price.

How do they do it? Because most of their staff in Israel are Israeli citizens, as well as being Palestinian Arabs. Their journalists belong to the forgotten fifth of the Israeli population whose citizenship is Israeli but whose nationality is Palestinian.


So not only do al-Jazeera's reporters know the northern patch of Israel like home ground (because it is home ground) but they are also not cravenly waiting for the Israeli Prime Minister's Office and army's spokesman to tell them what is going on.

Watching al-Jazeera has been a revelation: it has dedicated a substantial portion of its coverage to events inside Israel as well as in Lebanon, in stark contrast to Israeli broadcasters who rarely use any of the footage from Lebanon.

Similarly, al-Jazeera faithfully translated Ehud Olmert's speech word for word into Arabic, and then included a lengthy analysis from a local correspondent for its viewers. Israeli broadcasters, on the other hand, repeatedly mistranslated the televised words of Hezbollah leader Sheik Hassan Nasrallah into Hebrew and English, removing context and his calls for negotiation.

Similar misrepresentations of Nasrallah's position in the foreign media presumably reflected their over-reliance on the Israeli broadcasters.

But al-Jazeera's coverage inside Israel – the Arab world's best chance of being exposed to the Israeli point of view – is being effectively shut down. In the past two days, its editor has been arrested on two occasions and another senior journalist was taken in for questioning. According to its reporters, they cannot move from their office without being followed by the Israeli security services.



Why are they receiving this treatment? Because, according to Israel's only serious newspaper, Ha'aretz, the country's Hebrew media have been inciting against them. In particular Reshet Bet radio station, one of several wings of the Israeli media loyal to the government, has been telling lies that al-Jazeera is revealing classified information, namely the location of rocket strikes.



Is the claim true? According to Ha'aretz again: "Other TV networks, including Israeli news services, made similar reports without suffering from police intervention."



Freedom of the press rarely means much when governments go to war. The local media usually consider it their patriotic duty not only to strip of vital context the information they offer their viewers, but they often falsify the record too. Much of Israel's media are clearly doing both jobs with some accomplishment.



But the fact that some in the Israeli media see it as part of their job to silence journalists not as craven as themselves is the real eye-opener. Maybe they realize al-Jazeera just makes them look like propagandists.



*****



Nabila Espanioly, the director of a charitable organization in Nazareth promoting women and children's interests, makes a point worth remembering as the foreign and Israeli media huddle in the shelters of Haifa and Nahariya interviewing terrified "Israelis."



In fact, they are talking not to Israelis but to Israeli Jews. The fifth of the Israeli population who are not Jewish but Arab are rarely to be found hiding in public shelters because the authorities neglected to build any in their towns and villages.



In other words, although the Israeli army has sited several important weapons factories and military intelligence posts close to Arab communities in the north, the Israeli government has not offered the Arab residents any protection should there be fallout – quite literally in the case of the Katyusha rockets – as a result.



This is another tiny facet of the discrimination endured for decades by the country's Arab population that so rarely surfaces in media coverage of Israel.



Similarly oblivious to the ironies, the Israeli and foreign media have been running heartwarming stories about how "Israelis" are opening their homes and hearths to their compatriots fleeing the north. Again for "Israelis" substitute "Israeli Jews."



No one I know here in Nazareth believes they would find much of a welcome in Tel Aviv or Beersheva should they go looking for one. Which leaves them with nowhere to run should they need to.



The only Arab communities out of the line of Hezbollah fire are those in the southern Negev belonging to the Bedouin. But that is not much comfort. Most of the Negev's 150,000 Bedouin have been forced to live in squalid tents and metal shacks by an Israeli government that bulldozes anything more permanent. The authorities also deprive many of the Bedouin communities of water and all public services. So sweating it out with the Katyushas may be the better option.

*****

A final footnote – one to ponder in the quieter moments after the worst of the suffering is over. Those Israeli Jews fleeing for their lives as they head south to the quiet – so far at least – of Tel Aviv and beyond offer a small echo of events nearly six decades ago when 750,000 Palestinians were forced to leave their homes by the Israeli army.

Israeli Jews have always taken the view – and happily tell any outsiders as much – that the "Arabs" lost the right to their homes in the war of 1948 because they "fled" (in fact many were forcibly expelled, but let that drop for the moment).

The Israeli government has adopted much the same view, even refusing to allow the 250,000 of its own Arab citizens who are classified as internal refugees – their ancestors fled the fighting in 1948 but have citizenship because they stayed inside what is today Israel – to return to their original homes and land.

So how exactly should we regard those Israeli Jews now fleeing from Nahariya and Haifa? Should they lose their homes, their land, and their bank accounts just as the Palestinians did in 1948?

Top of Page

Jonathan Cook News Archive, last updated on Sunday, 30 July 2006

http://www.jkcook.net/Articles2/0261.htm#Top

[Mastermind]

Why should they need to run? Their all loving Arab brothers would surely take better care of them than the Iraelis according to your account...as they surely do in the Palistinian controlled areas...look how well they are taken care of there...with all the billions of foreign aid the PLO and the PLA have spent on infrastructure, schools, hospitals and roads and water supplies and electricity...

OH, yeah, that's right! They didn't.....the money some how just vanished and ...well, the people never did get anything out of it did they? Well, of course, Yassar's widow and his murdering cronies did...but, then, that's another story. And the Palis still live in squalor, with no jobs, and no hope...Of course, they do have their hate...that must be some consolation to them.MM

[mountainbear]

Clarsachier
Absolutely all articles on Jonathan Cook website are against Israel this guy can’t be taken seriously.
http://www.jkcook.net/Jbookcoverlarge.jpg
really!!:cantbeli:

[tanks_alot]

Clarsachier
Absolutely all articles on Jonathan Cook website are against Israel this guy can’t be taken seriously.
http://www.jkcook.net/Jbookcoverlarge.jpg
really!!:cantbeli:

Clarsachier, i stoped reading your article when it said the rocket was aimed at some strategic site and thus the town of Nazareth is used a human shield.....:roll:

first of all the writer failed at trying to maintain objectivity.....

the rocket hit two children playing at their back yard..... a real attempt at hitting a strategic site right? Israel is a small country and military infrastructure is located near most major towns.

the equivalent would be the IAF flattening all of Beirut and saying it was an attampt to hit the diffrent Hezbollah buildings in the city.

the IDF's HQ is located in Tel Aviv, next time you spread BS propaganda you could say every suicide boming that happend there was an attampt to hit a strategic target and in fact all of the Tel Avivans are used as human shields!

every rocket that hit Haifa was an attampt at hitting the diffrent strategic targets around that city! every time a border town was shelled it was in fact an attampt at hitting the outposts at the border! the options are limitless!

OMG we are all human shields and no one told us! p-)

[Eddy]

Clarsachier
Absolutely all articles on Jonathan Cook website are against Israel this guy can’t be taken seriously.
http://www.jkcook.net/Jbookcoverlarge.jpg
really!!:cantbeli:

Nice cover tho

[tanks_alot]

Nope! Here's why...Fighting PLO is one bunch of thugs against another...like one mafia family murdering members of another...all vendetta and murder by surprise. Fighting the "Christians" is another...occassional fierce, sharp and short fights from one street to another, massacres of innocent people as retribution and raiding refugee camps might make you an experienced murderer...but not a SOLDIER!

Their fights with IDF were all ambushes for the most part and detonating mines and IEDs...as I said, anyone can do that if they are willing to die to do it. Saying that kind of experience makes you a soldier is like saying being a Kamakazi pilot makes you a fighter pilot or bomber pilot.

They claimed a huge victory when Israel left under the belief the UN would take care of things...it didn't work out, did it? To the surprise of no one.

Yes, they are killers and as such they should be respected as potentially lethal...I would personally hate having to go in and clean them out...very, very dangerous But, to be a well trained, disciplined soldier capable of maneuver and group battle tactics you have have more than the ability to hurl rockets indiscriminately at civilians and snipe a few soldeirs or detonate a mine here and there.

IN MY OPINION! MM

Actualy you are wrong, Hezbollah are diffrent than the usual jihadist cannon fooders, they have those too though but they also have the more experinced and well trained men.

they are skilled at small units tactics and maneuvers, they are well equiped and are also skilled at coordinating mortar and rocket fire by forward observers.

as opposed to say the diffrent plaestinain gangs, Hezbollah most of the time actualy fights to the death.
i have no respect for their agenda and methods but they have some very good fighters.

also while most of the non ambush like combats aginst the IDF in Lebanon were some what suicidal, they had alot of experince fighting aginst the SLA.

[Elemental666]

Nice cover tho

Yea a real piece of art :-(
Wow that was one huge B.S article right there....:cantbeli:

[frenchy]

Why israelis don't use MLRS ?

[Beaufort]

Why israelis don't use MLRS ?

Who said we weren't?


http://uploaded.fresh.co.il/2006/07/17/85101673.jpg (http://uploaded.fresh.co.il/2006/07/17/33078112.jpg) http://uploaded.fresh.co.il/2006/07/17/81631641.jpg (http://uploaded.fresh.co.il/2006/07/17/96109038.jpg)

[frenchy]

Who said we weren't?


http://uploaded.fresh.co.il/2006/07/17/85101673.jpg (http://uploaded.fresh.co.il/2006/07/17/33078112.jpg) http://uploaded.fresh.co.il/2006/07/17/81631641.jpg (http://uploaded.fresh.co.il/2006/07/17/96109038.jpg)

Sorry I thought.:oops:

But I don't understand why hezbollah is enable to launch yet such rockets in Israel. About 210 yesterday. And about 120 each day.

so we have reasons to wonders what's the real effectiveness of israeli army.

If this conflict continues during a long time, it will be a disater for israeli economy. And for the image of tsahal.

[Beaufort]

Sorry I thought.:oops:

But I don't understand why hezbollah is enable to launch yet such rockets in Israel. About 210 yesterday. And about 120 each day.


They still have some 9,000 rockets left.

Why is the IDF unbale to destroy all of them? Because it would probably mean another 100 Qanas.

[Mastermind]

They still have some 9,000 rockets left.

Why is the IDF unbale to destroy all of them? Because it would probably mean another 100 Qanas.

Perhaps you are hinting at what I have been referring to as "The Necessary Thing".MM

[Elemental666]

Sorry I thought.:oops:
If this conflict continues during a long time, it will be a disater for israeli economy. And for the image of tsahal.

Guys......It's a completely different thing to fight a guerilla organization then an army..its been said about 200 times already.
If those were the Syrians,their army would be crushed,becouse of this simple fact:I.D.F is trained and was formed to fight wars against regular armies.
Tanks Vs. tanks,a.f Vs a.f,navy vs. navy,etc.
It's imposible to expect a complete victory against an enemy you hardly can see.
And when you do,they are usualy standing near a civilian population.

[Switek]

Guys......It's a completely different thing to fight a guerilla organization then an army..its been said about 200 times already.
If those were the Syrians,their army would be crushed,becouse of this simple fact:I.D.F is trained and was formed to fight wars against regular armies.
Tanks Vs. tanks,a.f Vs a.f,navy vs. navy,etc.
It's imposible to expect a complete victory against an enemy you hardly can see.
And when you do,they are usualy standing near a civilian population.

IDF is learning-in-action army. No one have such combat experience nowdays. Many armies engaged in Iraq and A-stan and in many other places can learn a lot from Israelis. If they only would...

[BPEL]

I am sure Israel is learning alot in this war heh?

[Kitsune]

Absolutely all articles on Jonathan Cook website are against Israel this guy can’t be taken seriously.

While I don't think one should blindly believe everything he says (but then not to "blindly believe everything" is always good advice) some things do merit attention in my opinion. Especially to those who have formed their opinion about this conflict on a very emotional basis. (For example: "Israelis are our allies, our government says, therefore they are always right").
In my opinion especially the following article of Mr.Cook is interesting and should be read (and thought about). It is clearly AGAINST Israels conduct of this affair, that is for sure. But even those who are pro Israel (or Israelis) should check wether they can dismiss anything said to 100%. And if it is only to control ones bearings.



Five Myths That Sanction Israel's War Crimes



by Jonathan Cook

CommonDreams.org

July 25 2006


This week I had the pleasure to appear on American radio, on the Laura Ingraham show, pitted against David Horowitz, a "Semite supremacist” who most recently made his name under the banner of Campus Watch, leading McCarthyite witch-hunts against American professors who have the impertinence to suggest that maybe, just maybe, Arabs have minds and feelings like the rest of us.

It was a revealing experience, at least for a British journalist rarely exposed to the depths of ignorance and prejudice in the United States on Middle East matters -- well, apart from the regular wackos who fill my email inbox. But five minutes of listening to Horowitz speak, and the sympathy with which his arguments were greeted by Laura (“The Professors -- your book’s a great read, David”), left me a lot more frightened about the world’s future.

Horowitz’s response to every question, every development in the Middle East, whether it concerns Lebanon, the Palestinians, Syria, or Iran, is the same: “They want to drive the Jews into the sea." It’s as simple as that. Not even a superficial attempt at analysis; just the message that the Arab world is trying to finish off the genocide started by Europe. And if Laura is any yardstick, a lot of Americans buy that stuff.

Horowitz is keen to bang the square peg of the Lebanon story into the round hole of his claims that the “Jews” are facing an imminent genocide in the Middle East. And to help him, he and the massed ranks of US apologists for Israel -- regulars, I suspect, of shows like Laura’s -- are promoting at least four myths regarding Hezbollah’s current rockets strikes on Israel. Unless they are challenged at every turn, the danger is that they will win the ground war against common sense in the US

The first myth is that Israel was forced to pound Lebanon with its military hardware because Hezbollah began “raining down” rockets on the Galilee. Anyone with a short memory can probably recall that was not the first justification we were offered: that had to do with the two soldiers captured by Hezbollah on a border post on July 12.

But presumably Horowitz and his friends realized that 400 Lebanese dead and counting in little more than a week was hard to sell as a “proportionate” response. In any case Hezbollah kept telling the world how keen it was to return the soldiers in a prisoner swap.

Hundreds of dead in Lebanon, at least 1,000 severely injured and more than half a million refugees -- all because Israel is not ready to sit down at the negotiating table. Even Horowitz could not “advocate for Israel” on that one.

So the chronology of war has been reorganized: now we are being told that Israel was forced to attack Lebanon to defend itself from the barrage of Hezbollah rockets falling on Israeli civilians. The international community is buying the argument hook, line, and sinker. “Israel has the right to defend itself," says every politician who can find a microphone to talk into.

But, if we cast our minds back, that is not how the “Middle East crisis," as TV channels now describe it, started. It is worth recapping on those early events (and I won’t document the long history of Lebanese suffering at Israel’s hands that preceded it) before they become entirely shrouded in the mythology being peddled by Horowitz and others.

Early on July 12 Hezbollah launched a raid against an army border post, in what was in the best interpretation a foolhardy violation of Israeli sovereignty. In the fighting the Shiite militia killed three soldiers and captured two others, while Hezbollah fired a few mortars at border areas in what the Israeli army described at the time as “diversionary tactics." As a result of the shelling, five Israelis were “lightly injured," with most needing treatment for shock, according to Haaretz.

Israel’s immediate response was to send a tank into Lebanon in pursuit of the Hezbollah fighters (its own foolhardy violation of Lebanese sovereignty). The tank ran over a landmine, which exploded, killing four soldiers inside. Another soldier died in further clashes inside Lebanon as his unit tried to retrieve the bodies.

Rather than open diplomatic channels to calm the violence down and start the process of getting its soldiers back, Israel launched bombing raids deep into Lebanese territory the same day. Given Israel’s worldview that it alone has a right to project power and fear, that might have been expected.

But the next day Israel continued its rampage across the south and into Beirut, where the airport, roads, bridges, and power stations were pummelled. We now know from reports in the US media that the Israeli army had been planning such a strike against Lebanon for at least a year.

In contrast to the image of Hezbollah frothing at the mouth to destroy Israel, its leader Hassan Nasrallah held off from serious retaliation. For the first day and a half, he limited his strikes to the northern borders areas, which have faced Hezbollah attacks in the past and are well protected.

He waited till late on June 13 before turning his guns on Haifa, even though we now know he could have targeted Israel’s third largest city from the outset. A small volley of rockets directed at Haifa caused no injuries and looked more like a warning than an escalation.

It was another three days -- days of constant Israeli bombardmeent of Lebanon, destroying the country and injuring countless civilians -- before Nasrallah hit Haifa again, including a shell that killed eight workers in a railway depot.

No one should have been surprised. Nasrallah was doing exactly what he had threatened to do if Israel refused to negotiate and chose the path of war instead. Although the international media quoted his ominous televised message that “Haifa is just the beginning," Nasrallah in fact made his threat conditional on Israel’s continuing strikes against Lebanon. In the same speech he warned: “As long as the enemy pursues its aggression without limits and red lines, we will pursue the confrontation without limits and red lines.” Well, Israel did, and so now has Nasrallah.

The second myth is that Hezbollah’s stockpile of 12,000 rockets -- the Israeli army’s estimate -- poses an existential threat to Israel. According to Horowitz and others, Hezbollah collected its armory with the sole intent of destroying the Jewish state.

If this really was Hezbollah’s intention in amassing the weapons, it has a very deluded view of what is required to wipe Israel off the map. More likely, it collected the armory in the hope that it might prove a deterrence -- even if a very inadequate one, as Lebanon is now discovering -- against a repeat of Israel’s invasions of 1978 and 1982, and the occupation that lasted nearly two decades afterwards.

In fact, according to other figures supplied by the Israeli army, at least 2,000 Hezbollah rockets have already been fired into Israel while the army’s bombardments have so far destroyed a further 2,000 rockets. In other words, northern Israel has already received a fifth of Hezbollah’s arsenal. As someone living in the north, and within range of the rockets, I have to say Israel does not look close to being expunged. The Galilee may be emptier, as up to third of Israeli Jews seek temporary refuge in the south, but Israel’s existence is in no doubt at all.

The third myth is that, while Israel is trying to fight a clean war by targeting only terrorists, Hezbollah prefers to bring death and destruction on innocents by firing rockets at Israeli civilians.

It is amazing that this myth even needs exploding, but after the efforts of Horowitz and Co. it most certainly does. As the civilian death toll in Lebanon has skyrocketed, international criticism of Israel has remained at the mealy-mouthed level of diplomatic requests for “restraint” and “proportionate responses."

One need only cast a quick eye over the casualty figures from this conflict to see that if Israel is targeting only Hezbollah fighters it has been making disastrous miscalculations. So far some 400 Lebanese civilians are reported dead -- unfortunately for Horowitz’s story at least a third of them children. From the images coming out of Lebanon’s hospitals, many more children have survived but with terrible burns or disabling injuries.

The best estimates, though no one knows for sure, are that Hezbollah deaths are not yet close to the three-figures range.

In the latest emerging news from Lebanon, human rights groups are accusing Israel of violating international law and using cluster grenades, which kill indiscriminately. There are reports too, so far unconfirmed, that Israel has been firing illegal incendiary bombs.

Conversely, the breakdown of the smaller number of deaths of Israelis at the hands of Hezbollah -- 42 at the time of writing -- show that more soldiers have been killed than civilians.

In fact, although no one is making the point, Hezbollah’s rockets have been targeted overwhelming at strategic locations: the northern economic hub of Haifa, its satellite towns and the array of military sites across the Galilee.

Nasrallah seems fully aware that Israel has an impressive civil defense program of shelters that keep most civilians out of harm’s way. Unlike Horowitz I won’t presume to read Nasrallah’s mind: whether he wants to kill large numbers of Israeli civilians or not cannot be known, given his inability to do so.

But we can see from the choice of the sites he is striking that his primary goal is to give Israelis a small taste of the disruption of normal life that is being endured by the Lebanese. He has effectively closed Haifa for more than a week, shutting its port and financial centers. Israeli TV is speaking increasingly of the damage being inflicted on the country’s economy.

Because of Israel’s press censorship laws, it is impossible to discuss the locations of Israel’s military installations. But Hezbollah’s rockets are accurate enough to show that many are intended for the army’s sites in the Galilee, even if they are rarely precise enough to hit them.

It is obvious to everyone in Nazareth, for example, that the rockets landing close by, and once on, the city over the past week are searching out, and some have fallen extremely close to, the weapons factory sited near us.

Hezbollah seems to have as little concern for the collateral damage of civilian deaths as Israel -- each wants the balance of terror in its favor -- but it is nonsense to suggest that Hezbollah’s goals are any more ignoble than Israel’s. It is trying to dent the economy of northern Israel in retaliation for Israel’s total destruction of the Lebanese economy. Equally, it is trying to show Israel that it knows where its military installations are to be found. Both strategies appear to be having an impact, even if a minor one, on weakening Israeli resolve.

The fourth myth is a continuation of the third: Hezbollah has been endangering the lives of ordinary Lebanese by hiding among non-combatants.

We have seen this kind of dissembling by Israel and Horowitz before, though not repeated so enthusiastically by Western officials. The UN head of humanitarian affairs, Jan Egeland, who is in the region, accused Hezbollah of “cowardly blending” among the civilian population, and a similar accuation was levelled by the British foreign minister Kim Howells when he arrived in Israel.

In 2002 Israel made the same charge: that Palestinians resisting its army’s rampage through the refugee camps of the West Bank were hiding among civilians. The claim grew louder as more Palestinian civilians showed the irritating habit of gettting in the way of Israeli strikes against population centers. The complaints reached a crescendo when at least two dozen civilians were killed in Jenin as Israel razed the camp with Apache helicopters and Caterpillar bulldozers.

The implication of Egeland’s cowardly statement seems to be that any Lebanese fighter, or Palestinian one, resisting Israel and its powerful military should stand in an open field, his rifle raised to the sky, waiting to see who fares worse in a shoot-out with an Apache helicopter or F-16 fighter jet. Hezbollah’s reluctance to conduct the war in this manner, we are supposed to infer, is proof that they are terrorists.

Egeland and Howells need reminding that Hezbollah’s fighters are not aliens recently arrived from training camps in Iran, whatever Horowitz claims. They belong to and are strongly supported by the Shiite community, nearly half the country’s population, and many other Lebanese. They have families, friends, and neighbors living alongside them in the country’s south and the neighborhoods of Beirut who believe Hezbollah is the best hope of defending their country from Israel’s regular onslaughts.

Given the indigenous nature of Hezbollah’s resistance, we should not be surprised at the lengths the Shiite militia is going to ensure their loved ones, and the Lebanese people more generally, are not put directly in danger by their combat.

If only the same could be said of the Israeli army and airforce. One need only look at the images of the victims of its strikes against residential neighborhoods, cars, ambulances, and factories to see why most of the dead being extracted from the rubble are civilians.

And finally, there is a fifth myth I almost forgot to mention. That people like David Horowitz only want to tell us the truth…


Jonathan Cook is a writer and journalist based in Nazareth, Israel. His book “Blood and Religion: The Unmasking of the Jewish and Democatic State” is published by Pluto Press. His website is www.jkcook.net

[frenchy]

They still have some 9,000 rockets left.

Why is the IDF unbale to destroy all of them? Because it would probably mean another 100 Qanas.

It's sad to kill civilians, but hezbollah uses human shields. so how it is possible to delete this threat ? Israelis prefer receiving rockets on their heads ?

And what about launchers ?

If IDF destroys a lot of rocket launchers, it should have less and less rockets.:|

But impossible to erase completely hezbollah like all guerillas.
So soon or later, israel will must negotiate.

[jmatucd]

While I don't think one should blindly believe everything he says (but then not to "blindly believe everything" is always good advice) some things do merit attention in my opinion. Especially to those who have formed their opinion about this conflict on a very emotional basis. (For example: "Israelis are our allies, our government says, therefore they are always right").
In my opinion especially the following article of Mr.Cook is interesting and should be read (and thought about). It is clearly AGAINST Israels conduct of this affair, that is for sure. But even those who are pro Israel (or Israelis) should check wether they can dismiss anything said to 100%. And if it is only to control ones bearings.

... well. Each of the article's 'myths' are more or less truths.


"The first myth is that Israel was forced to pound Lebanon with its military hardware because Hezbollah began “raining down” rockets on the Galilee"

> While it is true israel does not have to react to anything - not even dragons breathing fire on beach goers or nuclear weapons exploding overhead - Israel has chosen a military response. This 'myth' or point is disenguous... the Israelis can let missiles rain down on their cities and have their soldiers killed or captured without any response... but this is an idiotic point.


"The second myth is that Hezbollah’s stockpile of 12,000 rockets -- the Israeli army’s estimate -- poses an existential threat to Israel. According to Horowitz and others, Hezbollah collected its armory with the sole intent of destroying the Jewish state."

Hezbellah's sponsor's president recently the solution to this conflict is the destruction of israel... Those rockets are not for self defense... but are rather destined to kill israelis. The threat is real, as is apparent.


"The third myth is that, while Israel is trying to fight a clean war by targeting only terrorists, Hezbollah prefers to bring death and destruction on innocents by firing rockets at Israeli civilians."

Hezbellah does not care if it cares civilians. The Israelis seem to... If the Israelis desired to, they too could open up on Lebanese cities with full, unrestricted artillery and air strikes and target the population of Lebanon just as Hezbollah does with the Israeli population.


"The fourth myth is a continuation of the third: Hezbollah has been endangering the lives of ordinary Lebanese by hiding among non-combatants."

It certainly has... A large military is looking for you and your assets after you attack said large military.... By hiding among the civilian population you are exposing them to the same weapons that will kill you.

[Abu_Elvis]

To go back to the title of the thread...

Nasrallah's address where he is begging arab leaders to use their influence with americans to pressure israel for ceasefire:
http://www.memritv.org/Transcript.asp?P1=1219

In short, who ever has been following global jihad, when ever jihadis are asking for ceasefire (in arabic, Hudna), it means that they are losing. Islamists have one prototype for Hudna in Koran, and that is Treaty of Hudaybiyya. Muhammed declared hudna (10 year ceasefire) against Banu Quraish tribe because they were stronger. As soon as he felt stronger, he broke the ceasefire and massacred banu Quraish. So, hudna means a truce that will be held until jihadi rearms and regroups. As soon as he feels that he is stronger, he is obligated to break it. That's sharia, and there is no difference between sunni and shi'a view on hudna.

So, when jihadi is asking for hudna, you should press on. It means that they are in trouble and victory is near.

To summerize, Nasrallah in that speech answered the question of this thread. Yes. Israel can win, and is winning.

[Snoshi]

To go back to the title of the thread...

Nasrallah's address where he is begging arab leaders to use their influence with americans to pressure israel for ceasefire:
http://www.memritv.org/Transcript.asp?P1=1219

In short, who ever has been following global jihad, when ever jihadis are asking for ceasefire (in arabic, Hudna), it means that they are losing. Islamists have one prototype for Hudna in Koran, and that is Treaty of Hudaybiyya. Muhammed declared hudna (10 year ceasefire) against Banu Quraish tribe because they were stronger. As soon as he felt stronger, he broke the ceasefire and massacred banu Quraish. So, hudna means a truce that will be held until jihadi rearms and regroups. As soon as he feels that he is stronger, he is obligated to break it. That's sharia, and there is no difference between sunni and shi'a view on hudna.

So, when jihadi is asking for hudna, you should press on. It means that they are in trouble and victory is near.

To summerize, Nasrallah in that speech answered the question of this thread. Yes. Israel can win, and is winning.

Yep, when someone of those nutheads pledges a cease-fire=loss

[Mastermind]

Kitsune...your Cook article is so full of holes it is almost not worth responding to...I have no time today to take it apart sentence by sentence. It is written by a person who is well schooled in the use of propaganda and half truths and distortions.

I'll give just one example and then I have to go....

(from the article)

"He waited till late on June 13 before turning his guns on Haifa, even though we now know he could have targeted Israel’s third largest city from the outset. A small volley of rockets directed at Haifa caused no injuries and looked more like a warning than an escalation."

Anyone can see these were unguided missiles and the fact that no one was killed was pure luck...there is no doubt the man was trying and hoping to kill anyone who may have been near the large lumps of high explosives...the rockets were not merely a kindly warning. The write does this troughout his piece and to think of Israel "negotiating" with a mad man who runs a group of poeple who really are intent on murding every last Jew alive (they have given ample warning of this intent so in a great many statements over the years) is utterly absurd. Anyone who falls for this line of horse maneur Cook is offering is extroadinarily naieve.MM

[shire19]

To go back to the title of the thread...

Nasrallah's address where he is begging arab leaders to use their influence with americans to pressure israel for ceasefire:
http://www.memritv.org/Transcript.asp?P1=1219

In short, who ever has been following global jihad, when ever jihadis are asking for ceasefire (in arabic, Hudna), it means that they are losing. Islamists have one prototype for Hudna in Koran, and that is Treaty of Hudaybiyya. Muhammed declared hudna (10 year ceasefire) against Banu Quraish tribe because they were stronger. As soon as he felt stronger, he broke the ceasefire and massacred banu Quraish. So, hudna means a truce that will be held until jihadi rearms and regroups. As soon as he feels that he is stronger, he is obligated to break it. That's sharia, and there is no difference between sunni and shi'a view on hudna.

So, when jihadi is asking for hudna, you should press on. It means that they are in trouble and victory is near.

To summerize, Nasrallah in that speech answered the question of this thread. Yes. Israel can win, and is winning.

Muhammad didn't break the ceasefire, the Quraish did by attacking his allies. Muhammad then marched into Mecca and conquered it PEACEFULLY, most of the Quraish tribe were pardoned and allowed to leave taking their belongings with them, Muhammad was once part of that tribe so he even forgave those that oppressed him in his "civilian" life as a Prophet.
You are confusing the Banu Quraish tribe with the Banu Qurayza, they were accused of aiding the Meccans when they tried to siege Medina before the treaty ever existed. The men of the tribe were slaughtered as a result.

[Abu_Elvis]

Muhammad didn't break the ceasefire, the Quraish did by attacking his allies. Muhammad then marched into Mecca and conquered it PEACEFULLY, most of the Quraish tribe were pardoned and allowed to leave taking their belongings with them, Muhammad was once part of that tribe so he even forgave those that oppressed him in his "civilian" life as a Prophet.
You are confusing the Banu Quraish tribe with the Banu Qurayza, they were accused of aiding the Meccans when they tried to siege Medina before the treaty ever existed. The men of the tribe were slaughtered as a result.
Bassan Tibi on the subject:

At its core, Islam is a religious mission to all humanity. Muslims are religiously obliged to disseminate the Islamic faith throughout the world. "We have sent you forth to all mankind" (Q. 34:28). If non-Muslims submit to conversion or subjugation, this call (da’wa) can be pursued peacefully. If they do not, Muslims are obliged to wage war against them. In Islam, peace requires that non-Muslims submit to the call of Islam, either by converting or by accepting the status of a religious minority (dhimmi) and paying the imposed poll tax, jizya. World peace, the final stage of the da’wa, is reached only with the conversion or submission of all mankind to Islam…Muslims believe that expansion through war is not aggression but a fulfillment of the Qur’anic command to spread Islam as a way to peace. The resort to force to disseminate Islam is not war (harb), a word that is used only to describe the use of force by non-Muslims. Islamic wars are not hurub (the plural of harb) but rather futuhat, acts of "opening" the world to Islam and expressing Islamic jihad. Relations between dar al-Islam, the home of peace, and dar al-harb, the world of unbelievers, nevertheless take place in a state of war, according to the Qur’an and to the authoritative commentaries of Islamic jurists. Unbelievers who stand in the way, creating obstacles for the da’wa, are blamed for this state of war, for the da’wa can be pursued peacefully if others submit to it. In other words, those who resist Islam cause wars and are responsible for them. Only when Muslim power is weak is ‘temporary truce’ (hudna) allowed (Islamic jurists differ on the definition of ‘temporary’).
Sheikh Bakri Muhammed:



Is Peace With Israel Possible?: The Islamic Verdict (http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/fr/602221/posts)
al-Bayan ^ (http://www.freerepublic.com/^http://www.ummah.org.uk/albayan/fset2.html) | Sheikh Omar Bakri Muhammad

Posted on 01/05/2002 7:30:05 AM PST by knighthawk (http://www.freerepublic.com/~knighthawk/)

A principle in `Ilm al-Usul states that "there is no ijtihad on clear cut text". Therefore, there is no place whatsoever for interpretation or having an opinion about any text in the Qur'an which has a clear cut meaning. Regarding the Islamic verdict about unbelievers who occupy Muslim land, specified by conclusive and clear cut text, Allah(swt) ordered us in the Qur'an:
"O you who believe, fight in the way of Allah those who fight you, and do not transgress. Allah does not like transgressors" [HQ 2:190]
and Prophet Mohammad (saw) said:
"Whosoever dies defending his land dies a shahid (martyr)" and Allah says:
"Whoever commits aggression against you, attack him back in a like manner, and fear Allah." [HQ 2.194]
Furthermore, Islam forbids us to befriend them or show them any favour so as long they are occupying Muslim land. Allah (swt) says:
"Allah does not forbid you with regard to those who do not fight you over (your) deen, nor drive you out of your home land, from dealing kindly and being righteous to them for Allah loves those who are righteous. Do not ally and be good to those who fight, you for your belief and throw you from your home land and those who assist them. Allah forbids you from doing that. [HQ 60:8-9]
As for cease-fire treaties with the enemies (non-Muslims) who occupy Muslim land, it is known from Islam by necessity that we must fight them and there is no dispute about this. However, regarding a cease-fire treaty with enemies who occupy Muslim land, these are not allowed except if four conditions, which are agreed upon by the four main schools of thought, are met and these conditions are as follows:
1. The contractor on behalf of the Muslims is the Khaleefah or his representative, because of the saying of the Prophet (saw):
"Each one of you is a guardian, and each one will be questioned about those he is responsible for...".
Also, if we look to the time of the Prophet (saw), we find that he was the only one who contracted treaties. Therefore, the treaties which are contracted by the current illegitimate leaders, or the leaders of any group, be they nationalist or Islamic, or anybody else, have no right to be part of any treaty with unbeliever's who occupy Muslim land.
2. The subject of the contract must be based on Islam and nothing else, because Allah (swt) says:
"But no, by your Lord, they will not believe (in truth) until they make you judge of what is in dispute between them and find within themselves no dislike of what you decide, and submit with full submission." [EMQ 4:65] and the Prophet (saw) said:
"Any shart (condition or stipulation of a contract) not in the Book of Allah is batil (invalid and worthless)." (aI-Tabarani in al-Mu'jam al-Kabir and al-Suyouti authenticated it in his book al Jami' al-Saghir Vol. 2 pg. 77).
Further, RasoulAllah (saw) rebuked people who laid down conditions that contradicted the Shari'ah, and he(saw) said:
"What is the matter with those people who lay down conditions that are not from the Book of Allah? Any condition not in the Book of Allah is batil, even if there are a hundred of them. The judgement of Allah is the Truth, and the condition from Allah isFire." (al-San'ani, in Subul al-Salam, Vol. 3 pg. 10, with the wording of Bukhari).
Therefore, any treaty that contains any condition not valid in Islam, such as giving non-Muslims rights over Muslim land, is clearly batil.
3. The treaty must have a limited time period, because the treaty of Hudaybiyah was limited to ten years, and Allah (swt) said, after telling the Muslims to have a treaty with the unbeliever's for four months:
"So fulfil your treaty with them till the end of their term, for Allah loves those who fear him. But when the forbidden months are past, then fight and slay the pagans wherever you find them." [HQ 9:45]
After RasoulAllah (saw) conquered Makkah, he gave the various unbeliever's four months, but in the treaty of Hudaybiyah he gave them ten years (refer to the Seerah of Ibn Hisham). The scholars say that this means that Muslims in a strong position can have a truce with the unbeliever's for a maximum of four months and in a weak position a maximum of ten years.
4. The treaty must secure the interests of Islam and the Islamic Ummah, which are defined by the Shari'ah. If any of these conditions are not met, the treaty is Batil. It is well known that peace with Israel is haram, and the following Fatawa of the scholars mention this.
The Islamic Rulings
The following Fatwa was signed in the period December 1988 to November 1989, by 63 prominent scholars and men involved in Islamic Da'wah:
All Praise be to Allah (swt), the One Who took His servant by night from Masjid al-Haram (the Sacred Mosque) to Masjid al-Aqsa (the Farthest Mosque), and peace and blessings of Allah be upon he whom was transported to the land that was blessed for mankind, the land of the first Qiblah (direction of prayer), the land of the Prophets and the place to which Divine Messages were sent down, the land of Jihad and steadfastness until Judgement Day. And peace be upon his good Family and Companions, who shed their pure blood on that blessed land until they established Islam on it, raised its banner flying high, and expelled from it the enemies of Islam who had defiled Al-Quds (Jerusalem) with shirk and Kufr. And peace be upon those Muslims who were handed down this land, for they took care of the inheritance of the Muslims, and defended it with their wealth and their lives.
Furthermore, the function of the scholars and People of opinion among Muslims is no more than to be a safeguard for the Muslims to enlighten them if they are uncertain about their way, and to address the troubles that befall them. We, the undersigned, declare to the Muslims in these difficult times, that the Jews are nothing but sworn enemies of those who believe. They have usurped Palestine, committed brutal aggression against the forsaken Muslims there, evicted the people of the land and defiled the holy places. They will not rest until they annihilate the Deen of the Muslims, terminate their presence and subjugate them everywhere.
We, in accordance with the obligation and covenant that Allah (swt) has dictated to us to proclaim the Truth, declare that Jihad is the only way to liberate Palestine, and that it is not permissible in any situation to give recognition to the Jews over even an inch of the soil of Palestine, or for any person or entity to even acknowledge the authority of the Jews over the land of Palestine, or to surrender to them any part of it or, to recognise any right for them in it. Such recognition would be a betrayal of Allah (swt), the Prophet (saw) and the trust which is for every Muslim safeguarded. Allah Says,
"O You who believe! Do not betray Allah and His Prophet and betray your trusts knowingly. [HQ 8:27]
What betrayal is greater than selling the holy places of the Muslims and surrendering Muslim land to the enemies of Allah (SWT, His Prophet (SAW) and the believers. We are sure that Palestine is Islamic land and will continue to be Islamic land. It will be liberated by brave Islamic heroes from the Jewish filth, just as the determined victor Salahuddeen did from Crusader filth. And surely this news will be announced soon. Peace and blessings of Allah be upon His slave and messenger Mohammad, and upon his Family and Companions.
The Fatwa Of The Scholars Participating In The Islamic International Conference In Pakistan.
In 1968 We have looked at the request that was presented to us about the Islamic Shari'ah ruling regarding the issue of signing a peace accord with those who have seized the land of Palestine and some of the Egyptian and Syrian lands, caused its Muslim people to flee, plundered their property, committed the gravest sins of killing, plundering and torturing Muslims, occupied Jerusalem and what it contains of sacred Islamic places, notably the farthest mosque, the first niche and the place of the Prophet's night journey and ascension to the heavens, destroyed some Islamic places like mosques, schools and houses which are all Islamic endowment, declared their dangerous desire in the Farthest Mosque and started to dig under it in preparation to take it over, and also declared their desire for other sacred places.
In answer to the above request we state that peace with those aggressor fighters is prohibited by Shari'ah because it allows the usurper to keep what he has taken, and is considered a recognition of his right to what he has taken, so it is not allowed for the Muslims to make peace with those aggressor Jews because that would allow them to remain as a state in this sacred Islamic land. In fact the Muslims have a duty to exert themselves to liberate this land from the hands of usurpers, all the Muslims have to participate in the duty of jihad until they regain that land from the aggressors, and we call upon all Muslims to cling firmly to the rope of Allah (swt) and to do what will achieve pride and dignity to Islam and Muslims.
The Fatwa Issued by Al-Azhar
The Al-Azhar Fatwa committee gathered in the Al-Azhar Mosque on Sunday 18 Jumada `Ula 1375H (1 January 1956). The committee stated that peace with Israel is not allowed according to Shari'ah because of that means acknowledging the usurper on his usurpation, the recognition of his right to what he has illegally seized, and the allowance of the aggressor to remain free in his aggression. All the heavenly revealed laws and the man-made ones have unanimously agreed on the prohibition of illegal seizure and the obligation of returning the seized propertyto its rightful owners and it urged the rightful owner to defend and call for his right. The Prophet (saw) said,
"Whoever dies defending his possessions is a Shahid, and whoever dies defending his honour is a Shahid".
In another tradition he said,
"The hand has (the sin) on it until it returns what has been taken".
Therefore, it is prohibited for the Muslims to make peace with those Jews who have illegally seized the land of Palestine and transgressed against its people and their possessions in any way that would allow them to remain as a state on this Islamic sacred land. In fact, the Muslims have to co-operate together despite their differences in colour, tongues or nation to return this land to its rightful owners, to protect and safeguard the Islamic historic places from the hands of those aggressors, and to help and aid the Mujahids who use weapons and other forceful means to do jihad and to spend in it all that they can until the land becomes pure from these aggressor tyrants.
The Fatwa of The Scholars of Najd
The scholars of Najd in June 1937 issued a Fatwa that stated that becoming friendly with the Jews in the lands of Islam is invalid and prohibited.
The Fatwa of The Scholars of Iraq
The scholars of Iraq issued a Fatwa in June 1937 stating that it is a Fard on every Muslim to resist the establishment of a Jewish state in Palestine.
The Fatwa of the President of the Central Scholars Association in India
The Muslims who sell the sacred land of Palestine to the Jews in our days or those who act as intermediaries to this appalling act despite the fact that they know that the Jews do not buy it except for evicting the Muslims of this sacred land, to replace the Farthest Mosque with the temple and to establish a Jewish state. These people are considered by Allah (swt) as those who are fighting Islam and made peace with Kufr and helped the enemies of Islam:
"These are they who have bartered guidance for error, but their traffic is profitless and they have lost true direction" [HQ 2:16] Sheikh Omar Bakri Muhammad is Principal Lecturer of The London School Of Shar'iah and Leader of Al-Muhajiroun.

Anyway, they use the story from Kuran and base their views on hudna on Hadith and commentators. And it is obvious that skirmish between Banu Quraish and few beduins was a pretext. There was no prior history of hostilities since hudna was declared I am aware of.

Yes, you are right, I confused the two tribes... But it doesn't make the meaning of hudna any different. Temporary truce ment to be broken, made when muslims are losing, in order to rearm and regroup.

[shire19]

Anyway, they use the story from Kuran and base their views on hudna on Hadith and commentators. And it is obvious that skirmish between Banu Quraish and few beduins was a pretext. There was no prior history of hostilities since hudna was declared I am aware of.

Yes, you are right, I confused the two tribes... But it doesn't make the meaning of hudna any different. Temporary truce ment to be broken, made when muslims are losing, in order to rearm and regroup.
I know what Hudna is and what it's based on, it is a tempororaily cease-fire and can be used for re-arming and re-grouping. This however does not mean that it's an simple strategy used by Muslims when they are weak.

There is a reason why the Treaty of Hudaybiyya and the Hamas proposal are the only examples of Hudna in history. When the Meccans attacked Muhammad in Medina with an 10,000 strong army against his 3,000 soldiers in the Battle of Trench, he did not initiate Hudna but rather fought it out and won. Same with the Battle of Badr and the many dozens of battles where they were either outnumbered or outgunned. This goes the same for all historical battles that occured in the Islamic Conquest era.

To suggest it's some kind of cowardly act used by Muslims when they know they can't win is ignorant. What led to the end of the treaty wheter it was the fault of the Quraish or Muhammad is controversial to this day, different people have different views on it.

[Abu_Elvis]

I know what Hudna is and what it's based on, it is a tempororaily cease-fire and can be used for re-arming and re-grouping. This however does not mean that it's an simple strategy used by Muslims when they are weak.

There is a reason why the Treaty of Hudaybiyya and the Hamas proposal are the only examples of Hudna in history. When the Meccans attacked Muhammad in Medina with an 10,000 strong army against his 3,000 soldiers in the Battle of Trench, he did not initiate Hudna but rather fought it out and won. Same with the Battle of Badr and the many dozens of battles where they were either outnumbered or outgunned. This goes the same for all historical battles that occured in the Islamic Conquest era.

To suggest it's some kind of cowardly act used by Muslims when they know they can't win is ignorant. What led to the end of the treaty wheter it was the fault of the Quraish or Muhammad is controversial to this day, different people have different views on it. Ok, let's say it is contraversial. First, i was not speaking about muslims, but about jihadis, or, if you prefer it, extremists, fundamentalists... I don't remember an instance of ottomans using hudna, but there are plenty of examples of al qaeda, hezbollah, hamas, etc, calling for a ceasefire to western press, and saying, we don't really mean it to arabic press, and mentioning Treaty of Hudaybiyya as their legal precedent.

[shire19]

Ok, let's say it is contraversial. First, i was not speaking about muslims, but about jihadis, or, if you prefer it, extremists, fundamentalists... I don't remember an instance of ottomans using hudna, but there are plenty of examples of al qaeda, hezbollah, hamas, etc, calling for a ceasefire to western press, and saying, we don't really mean it to arabic press, and mentioning Treaty of Hudaybiyya as their legal precedent.
Then unfortunately it's another aspect of the Islamic religion that these extremists have hijacked. Hudna was only ever used by Muhammad in it's purest form, it was at a time when the religion of Islam was extremely weak with just a few hundred followers, had he not negotiated for peace. The Meccan tribes would have eradicated him and his followers.

[Kitsune]

@MM and jmatucd:


I agree that Cook is biased. Perhaps too much to be entirely believable. But if one reads the stuff of, for example, this David Horowitz character (like for example: http://frontpagemag.com/Articles/ReadArticle.asp?ID=23485 ) I have a much worse feeling. Don't tell me that such nonsense is very credible to you.

In any case, calling Hezbollah madmen or lunatics is just not appropriate. They are not, I am afraid. They know what they are doing.
But does Israel?

That is why the topic of this thread "Can Israel win?" is somewhat problematic. What means winning? Surviving? Yes it will, because its existence is not even in danger. Destroying Hezbollah? No, Zahal will not manage to do that in my opinion. Because Hezbollah is not just a bunch of a few hundred maniacs but an organisation which is deeply woven into the Shiite population of Lebanon. Now, probably more than ever, after the rather misbegotten Israeli heavy-handedness. And God knows, how many will try to emulate their methods now, that they have proven that succesful.

What about freeing those two soldiers? Can that objective be achieved? Well, I would not put my hand into a fire for it, but I suspect they will be freed at some future date. But as the result of some deal. The IDF rampage has prolonged the time of their captivity, not shortened them. That much was obvious from the start. (And that anyone in Israel could believe different is a complete mystery to me...they even used almost exclusively airstrikes at first..bomb them and Hezbollah will set them free - can one really be that naive?)
In any case those two are lucky that Hezbollah IS nowadays a reasonably rational, disciplined and halfway civilized bunch. Would they have been taken captive by the real whacko kind (like the Taliban) the fate of those two could not remotely be predicted. Every whim of one of their captors could mean the end.

And then the rockets, ah yes. The great danger for Israel. Come on Mastermind. Do the maths yourself. How many rockets have been fired into Israel by now? 4000? And how many Israeli civilians have been killed till today? 30? (Only so many as two decent Palestinian suicide bombings, did you realize that?) That would mean Hezbollah needs 133 Rockets on average to kill a single Israeli. And how many rockets have they altogether, what was that? 15.000? That would mean, that Hezbollah could expect to have killed the staggering number of 113 Israeli civilians once they have shot all their powder. Not nice, but hardly the utter destruction of the state of Israel, isn't it?
And as said, Hezbollah are no madmen. They know their weaponry and its effects quite well. They also knew that even with all their rockets they can only anger Israel, but not really harm it in any serious way. So no one gets wiped of the map for the time being.

On top of this, while Hezbollah used rockets now and then against Israel (as IDF used airstrikes and commando raids into Lebanon, I mean its not that Israel did ever respect that border in the last 24 years, isn't it?) the big barrage of Hezbollah rockets came only as an answer to the massive Israeli bombardement. Back then the reason given by Jerusalem for this was indeed mostly this border incident which resulted in those two Soldiers being taken captive and eight being killed. (Has Hezbollah lost any fighters in that attack by the way?)
Nowadays, to destroy those rockets has become the main reason. And, will Israel achieve that? Most definitely. Although they are largely disarming Hezbollah by having them shoot them at Israel - its like disarming a man by making him shoot at you until he has no ammo left. An original method, that's for sure, but one that is bound to be effecitve in the end.

And with the Israeli military action making Hezbollah use those rockets in what they (and more and more the other religious fractions of the Lebanon) view as payback for Israel's bombings, the Israeli airstrikes may destroy so many rockets that the number of Israeli killed by them will only be 70 in the end or so, and not 113. Even today nearly 500 Lebanese (many of them not even Shiits or even children, so obviously not grim Hezzi guerilla fighters) have been killed. Played to the end it will most probably be more than a thousand. How many lives the forced diplacement of 700.000 people will cost in the end (even if only 1% would die - and such is possible - it would be another 7.000 dead) no one can say today. Plus the systematic destruction of buildings, power plants, bridges and streets all over Lebanon. This will mean a noticeably reduction of prosperity in that country for years if not decades to come, affecting virtually the whole population. (Who will invest in a country that could be bombed to smithereens by its Southern neighbour at a whim? All this to save perhaps 50 Israelis. Who would not be dead in the case that Israel had not "defended" itself either, since Hezbollah would not have launched all their rockets in that case.

But...now there will be no more Hezbollah rockets that threaten Israel. So that means that Israelis have not to live in fear to be shelled anymore, right? Really? If IDF pushes Hezbollah back for 20 km, even Katjushas could still reach Israel, the bigger rockets can do that even when fired from Lebanons northern border. So is that really worth all this. Not that the basic aim to free people from the possibilty of being bombed or shelled isn't a good thing. But it won't work. And besides, Lebanese must live with the fear of ending up as a victim of Israeli bombings since decades now. What about them?

Israels real foul-up is the international stock market, however. Here, the shares of Hezbollah Ltd. have risen immensly in the last three weeks (attracting especially buyers from Muslim countries). On the other side, the shares of Israel Inc. do not doing so well, I am afraid.
Is it really premature to classify the whole Lebanon military operation as one unmitigated desaster for Israel if not for the whole western world?

Considering this, (and I don't believe that I am to far off the mark with this) isn't the absolute lack of any self-doubt we see in most Israelis (or some people like David Horowitz who advocate whatever Israel is doing, see the above article) not a bit...odd?
I don't know what went wrong in Israels High-Command. But quite few things went wrong there, that is for sure. It should be fairly obvious that the whole matter smelled a bit from the beginning. (I am using English understatement, if you don't mind).
Perhaps its just me, but to stand at the sidelines and to cheer: "Bravo Israel!" seems just not to be the appropriate reaction to me.

[DB-ERAUPilot]

@MM and jmatucd:


I agree that Cook is biased. Perhaps too much to be entirely believable. But if one reads the stuff of, for example, this David Horowitz character (like for example: http://frontpagemag.com/Articles/ReadArticle.asp?ID=23485 ) I have a much worse feeling. Don't tell me that such nonsense is very credible to you.

In any case, calling Hezbollah madmen or lunatics is just not appropriate. They are not, I am afraid. They know what they are doing.
But does Israel?

That is why the topic of this thread "Can Israel win?" is somewhat problematic. What means winning? Surviving? Yes it will, because its existence is not even in danger. Destroying Hezbollah? No, Zahal will not manage to do that in my opinion. Because Hezbollah is not just a bunch of a few hundred maniacs but an organisation which is deeply woven into the Shiite population of Lebanon. Now, probably more than ever, after the rather misbegotten Israeli heavy-handedness. And God knows, how many will try to emulate their methods now, that they have proven that succesful.

What about freeing those two soldiers? Can that objective be achieved? Well, I would not put my hand into a fire for it, but I suspect they will be freed at some future date. But as the result of some deal. The IDF rampage has prolonged the time of their captivity, not shortened them. That much was obvious from the start. (And that anyone in Israel could believe different is a complete mystery to me...they even used almost exclusively airstrikes at first..bomb them and Hezbollah will set them free - can one really be that naive?)
In any case those two are lucky that Hezbollah IS nowadays a reasonably rational, disciplined and halfway civilized bunch. Would they have been taken captive by the real whacko kind (like the Taliban) the fate of those two could not remotely be predicted. Every whim of one of their captors could mean the end.

And then the rockets, ah yes. The great danger for Israel. Come on Mastermind. Do the maths yourself. How many rockets have been fired into Israel by now? 4000? And how many Israeli civilians have been killed till today? 30? (Only so many as two decent Palestinian suicide bombings, did you realize that?) That would mean Hezbollah needs 133 Rockets on average to kill a single Israeli. And how many rockets have they altogether, what was that? 15.000? That would mean, that Hezbollah could expect to have killed the staggering number of 113 Israeli civilians once they have shot all their powder. Not nice, but hardly the utter destruction of the state of Israel, isn't it?
And as said, Hezbollah are no madmen. They know their weaponry and its effects quite well. They also knew that even with all their rockets they can only anger Israel, but not really harm it in any serious way. So no one gets wiped of the map for the time being.

On top of this, while Hezbollah used rockets now and then against Israel (as IDF used airstrikes and commando raids into Lebanon, I mean its not that Israel did ever respect that border in the last 24 years, isn't it?) the big barrage of Hezbollah rockets came only as an answer to the massive Israeli bombardement. Back then the reason given by Jerusalem for this was indeed mostly this border incident which resulted in those two Soldiers being taken captive and eight being killed. (Has Hezbollah lost any fighters in that attack by the way?)
Nowadays, to destroy those rockets has become the main reason. And, will Israel achieve that? Most definitely. Although they are largely disarming Hezbollah by having them shoot them at Israel - its like disarming a man by making him shoot at you until he has no ammo left. An original method, that's for sure, but one that is bound to be effecitve in the end.

And with the Israeli military action making Hezbollah use those rockets in what they (and more and more the other religious fractions of the Lebanon) view as payback for Israel's bombings, the Israeli airstrikes may destroy so many rockets that the number of Israeli killed by them will only be 70 in the end or so, and not 113. Even today nearly 500 Lebanese (many of them not even Shiits or even children, so obviously not grim Hezzi guerilla fighters) have been killed. Played to the end it will most probably be more than a thousand. How many lives the forced diplacement of 700.000 people will cost in the end (even if only 1% would die - and such is possible - it would be another 7.000 dead) no one can say today. Plus the systematic destruction of buildings, power plants, bridges and streets all over Lebanon. This will mean a noticeably reduction of prosperity in that country for years if not decades to come, affecting virtually the whole population. (Who will invest in a country that could be bombed to smithereens by its Southern neighbour at a whim? All this to save perhaps 50 Israelis. Who would not be dead in the case that Israel had not "defended" itself either, since Hezbollah would not have launched all their rockets in that case.

But...now there will be no more Hezbollah rockets that threaten Israel. So that means that Israelis have not to live in fear to be shelled anymore, right? Really? If IDF pushes Hezbollah back for 20 km, even Katjushas could still reach Israel, the bigger rockets can do that even when fired from Lebanons northern border. So is that really worth all this. Not that the basic aim to free people from the possibilty of being bombed or shelled isn't a good thing. But it won't work. And besides, Lebanese must live with the fear of ending up as a victim of Israeli bombings since decades now. What about them?

Israels real foul-up is the international stock market, however. Here, the shares of Hezbollah Ltd. have risen immensly in the last three weeks (attracting especially buyers from Muslim countries). On the other side, the shares of Israel Inc. do not doing so well, I am afraid.
Is it really premature to classify the whole Lebanon military operation as one unmitigated desaster for Israel if not for the whole western world?

Considering this, (and I don't believe that I am to far off the mark with this) isn't the absolute lack of any self-doubt we see in most Israelis (or some people like David Horowitz who advocate whatever Israel is doing, see the above article) not a bit...odd?
I don't know what went wrong in Israels High-Command. But quite few things went wrong there, that is for sure. It should be fairly obvious that the whole matter smelled a bit from the beginning. (I am using English understatement, if you don't mind).
Perhaps its just me, but to stand at the sidelines and to cheer: "Bravo Israel!" seems just not to be the appropriate reaction to me.


Definately agree, while every nation has the right to defend themselves...a line has to be drawn somewhere...as of right now Israel is doing more harm than good... and to what end ? :roll:

[tanks_alot]

Kitsune.... seriously you'r and others are saying the same things in loops all over again, and you just translated what was in the article into diffrent words.

From the beginning of this conflict no israeli belived that it will end with Hezbollah destroyed or with the kidnapped soldiers returend (assuming they are among the living as Hezbollah has a bad record on that).

you can play it all you want but Hezbollah has sufferd a serious blow and while they were planning for this conflict for the last six years, no one in their leadrship belived that their recent attack would lead to it as they stated themselfs.

there is a saying in Hebrew: ba'al habeit heshtagea - the house owner has gone mad, the status que that existed in the last six years of Hezbollah attacking and Israel only responding very moderatly has completly changed and all of the major players are very aware of this, they don't know how Israel will respond to the next attack after this conflict will be over.

now let's say one year from now the showdown with Iran will take place over their nuclear attempts, think what would have happend Iran would have used the Hezbollah to open another front, that train has left the station now as result of the major losses Hezbollah has sufferd.

now as for the two soldiers, there is are ways to make a deal such as Hezbollah handing the soldiers over to the lebanese goverment and deal is signed with them along with further understandings, this was discussed in Lebanon only after the offensive began not to mention that the IDF captured around 20 Hezbollah members by now that can act as bargaining chips and thus preventing Hezbollah to recive what they wanted at the beginning.

you say the rockets are not a threat to Israel because of the low number of civilian deaths, but that number is low because the people are in bomb shelters or moved south, a normal country cant live under a constant barrage of rockets, over million civilians are paralyzed.
you seem to belive that Israel is only allowed to go to war when it's existence is in danger, we on the other hand don't care what you think and belive that attacking our soldiers and towns with rockets is as good reason as any to go to war.

since the IDF has left Lebanon in 2000 the only IAF attacks in Lebanon were in response the Hezbollah attacks and don't bother telling me anything alse as i served six months on the border and no one had any intrest to stir things up, we really have some bad memories from Lebanon and you can see it even now at how the goverment was relunctent to start the ground offensive and how limited it is.

as for how Israel acted in this conflict, there will be many lessons to be learned both on the military and political aspects but it is better to learn them now and not during a full scale war.

[Switek]

now let's say one year from now the showdown with Iran will take place over their nuclear attempts, think what would have happend Iran would have used the Hezbollah to open another front, that train has left the station now as result of the major losses Hezbollah has sufferd.




That's the truth and real threathen. But I think that Kitsune underlined just Israeli pont oif view without broader, I mean intternational context.

This war begun 2 day after negative result of talks about Iranian nucleear program in Berlin.

EU countries critize Israel gently. This critic is made to calm down most pacifist redicals in Europe and muslim minorities. Most european governents is just silent. There is amazing unability to create new peace forces to Lebanon. Evrery country plays his own role in this numb decission process.

This war is no longer to free 2 kidnapped soldiers. Is to destroy as much as is possible HZ facilities and make HZ ineffective as political and military role for some next years. This war is made to help US government to isolate Iran. This is one of mean to achieive it. De facto Israeli government got (and still have) green light from Washington. This is why the response of IGFwas so "disproportionable". Irael pays its political debts...

Iraq is just on the edge. Civil war can happen there. It is possible as never before. Brits, Americans and Iraqis fight against insurgrents sponsored by Iran. And some die from the same weapons what kill Israelis
Most Muslim governments just critize Israel, but in reality, do nothing to help Iran and its mililtians in Lebanon.

The stake is huge. Fruther security of Israel and Western world and many islamic (sunnit) countries. All of them want to be prevented from Iran armed with nuke's warheads. So far only IDF bleed itself to save us all. Pathethic statement? May be...

This is why I wrote some pages before: Irael must win.

[Paracaidista]

somewhat related... I present you:

Welcome to Pallywood (http://www.break.com/index/what_really_happens_pallywood.html)

:cantbeli:

[frenchy]

What I see, it's that hezbollah rockets kill more and more israelis than in the beginning of the conflict.

So they have a lot of strength yet.:|

[Abu_Elvis]

Hezbollah few days ago:

Hezbollah leader Hassan Nasrallah warned on Thursday that if the IDF attacks Beirut proper, his guerillas would launch rockets that would hit Tel Aviv.

http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/746178.html

Hezbollah today:


Hizbullah: Haifa rocket attack response to raids on Beirut

Hizbullah said it fired Raad-2 rockets at Haifa on Sunday evening. In a statement issued by the group, the rocket barrage was in response to "acts of aggression by the Zionists against Israeli civilians and especially in response to the bombardment of the Dahiyeh neighborhood in Beirut."

Three people were killed and 40 others were injured in the attack. (Roee Nahmias)
http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-3287364,00.html

So they didn't bomb Tel Aviv... Why?

[Paracaidista]

And regarding low-intensity operations:

Source: New York Times (http://www.nytimes.com/2006/08/07/opinion/07shultz.html?th=&emc=th&pagewanted=print)

August 7, 2006
Op-Ed Contributor
Counterinsurgency, by the Book

By RICHARD H. SCHULTZ Jr. and ANDREA J. DEW
Boston

AS we all know, war has changed. In the 21st century it is dominated by irregular and unconventional ways of fighting. Al Qaeda demonstrated this on 9/11, and the bloody wars in Afghanistan and Iraq are only further corroboration. War can no longer be waged effectively by conventional combat forces employed by modern militaries.

The Pentagon is just starting to catch up with these changes. It is in the midst of a strategic overhaul aimed at coming up with new ways to fight new wars. This was first signaled in the 2006 Quadrennial Defense Review, which described the “long war” America is now engaged in as “a war that is irregular in its nature” against adversaries that “are not conventional military forces.”

More recently, two of the Pentagon’s smartest and most experienced generals, David Petraeus of the Army and Jim Mattis of the Marines, have overseen the production of a new counterinsurgency manual — called the FM 3-24/FMFM 3-24 in Pentagon-speak — for fighting these irregular wars. This blueprint declares that it is primarily for “leaders and planners at the battalion level and above” who are “involved in counterinsurgency operations regardless of where these operations may occur.”

The current draft of this counterinsurgency manual, which has been shown to civilian experts and been posted on the Internet by the Federation of American Scientists, provides an encyclopedic 241-page review of insurgencies that took place in the 20th century and an alphabetical list of the tools of counterinsurgency. The manual, which is still a work in progress, amounts to an introductory course in the history of insurgency and counterinsurgency.

But to be of practical use to American troops in fierce battles in Iraq, Afghanistan and beyond, the final draft of the handbook must be more than a Counterinsurgency 101 exercise. It must, at a minimum, accurately identify the types of armed groups American troops will have to fight, which include more than traditional insurgents. It must also provide a framework for profiling the organization and operational tendencies of these armed groups, to learn their strengths and weaknesses. And it has to map out an intelligence model that will dig out actionable intelligence that can be used to find and defeat armed groups.

On all these critical requirements, the current draft of the manual comes up short. Based on our research and the lessons learned from centuries of counterinsurgency efforts, we recommend three major revisions for those drafting the final version.

First, you must know your enemy. In today’s internal wars several different types of armed groups — not just traditional insurgents bent on changing a national regime — engage in unconventional combat. Iraq is illustrative. Those fighting American forces include a complex mix of Sunni tribal militias, former regime members, foreign and domestic jihadists, Shiite militias and criminal gangs. Each has different motivations and ways of fighting. Tackling them requires customized strategies.

Unfortunately, well into 2005, the American military subsumed all these groups under the rubric “insurgents” and planned its strategy accordingly. It didn’t imagine or prepare for the possibility that former regime members had their own “day-after” plan to fight on even if they lost the conventional battle.

It didn’t imagine that Iraq would become a magnet for international jihadists, so it failed to seal the borders. It didn’t imagine the Sunni tribal militias would react with such violence to the American presence, so it failed to take the pre-emptive economic and political steps to address their grievances. And it failed to understand that there were radical elements within the Shiite community that would use force to try to establish a theocratic system.

These acute miscalculations gave those who seek to defeat us time to marshal their forces, and seriously undercut Washington’s overall efforts to stabilize Iraq.

The Pentagon’s new counterinsurgency manual suffers from similar flaws. It focuses almost exclusively on combating cohesive groups of insurgents who share the same goals. Yes, there are traditional insurgent groups in Iraq, like cells of former Baathists. But the foreign terrorists, religious militias and criminal organizations operate from very different playbooks. We have to learn to read them the way other nations faced with insurgencies have.

Consider the British experience during the 1980’s and 90’s in Northern Ireland. By working hand-in-glove with the Special Branch of the local police force, the Royal Ulster Constabulary, British intelligence agents penetrated the ranks of the Irish Republican Army, eventually capturing and incarcerating a legion of its leaders and operatives.

A former top-ranking I.R.A. commander who later became an informer told us that, when he was imprisoned with higher-ranking I.R.A. officials, they lamented over and over that the British strategy was so effective and their ranks were so depleted by the end of the 1980’s that “the boys can’t move, can’t operate, always have to be looking over their shoulders.” As a result, Britain was able to negotiate a relatively successful end to hostilities and to contain most of the splinter groups that refused to abide by it.

The Pentagon’s amended manual should spell out similar ways of intuiting the organizational and operational differences that can exist between and within insurgent armies, terrorist outfits, militias, and criminal groups. It should also give a better history of how such organizations have collaborated and factionalized over the years in Iraq, Afghanistan, Colombia and elsewhere.

Second, the final manual must provide our troops with a systematic way of “profiling” each specific armed group. As it stands, the guide is a laundry list of the generic elements of insurgency movements — leadership, organization and networks, popular support, ideology, activities and foreign support.

Meeting and defeating terrorist groups requires a far deeper understanding of their factions — and the exploitation of the rifts between them. Consider how such profiling led to the demise of the Abu Nidal organization, which 20 years ago was the world’s most lethal terrorist group.

As it reached its peak strength, the organization began to experience serious fissures among its leaders. Several key members felt that Abu Nidal himself was siphoning off funds. He in turn accused them of plotting to assassinate him. Eventually he had some 300 hard-core leaders and operatives gunned down or otherwise dispatched. By the early 1990’s, the group had been effectively neutered.

How did this come about? In part because American and other Western intelligence agencies — with the help of local Arab intelligence services who were able to get operatives close to key members of the group and spread paranoia and suspicion — successfully grasped and manipulated factional rivalries.

A key for America should have been to get such information about schisms and unhappiness inside the insurgent groups we face, particularly in their formative stages when they were most vulnerable. Many former insurgent and terrorist leaders we have interviewed — hardened veterans of late 20th-century armed groups from Central America, southern Africa and Europe — told us that their vulnerabilities and factional strife were most blatant in their groups’ early years and could have been exploited if security agencies had looked for them.

THE third problem with the manual is that it actually overstresses winning “hearts and minds” — the political, economic, civic and other “soft power” tactics aimed at winning popular support. Yes, such steps are keys to victory; they played a central part in counterinsurgency victories in the 1950’s by the Philippine government of Ramón Magsaysay and by the British in Malaya. In both places, the government invested heavily in education, local economies, public works and social welfare programs to wean their populations away from the insurgents.

But soft power tactics are not the only keys to victory. An insurgency is still war, and the key is finding and capturing or killing terrorist and militia leaders. It is an intelligence-led struggle. The Pentagon manual rightly insists that “intelligence drives operations” and that “without good intelligence, a counterinsurgent is like a blind boxer.” Yet the document provides no organizational blueprint for collecting such intelligence.

We have to take a lesson from other democracies that have figured out how to neutralize and defuse armed groups. The British and the Israelis, among others, have refined an effective intelligence model through bloody trial and error. It involves collecting actionable intelligence at the local level on a continual basis.

Consider the Israeli experience. After the 1967 war it built up a remarkable intelligence-gathering system in the West Bank and Gaza. But after the Oslo accords of 1993 it gave up this advantage and withdrew.

However, when the second intifada erupted in late 2000 and Israeli casualties mounted, the Israelis went back to work. They honeycombed the territories with local intelligence units that infiltrated Palestinian armed groups through agents, electronic surveillance and paid informants. It was not easy, but they did it, and their intelligence successes contributed to the Palestinian Authority’s gradual de-emphasis of terrorist acts in favor of political initiatives, and even led Hamas to engage in the cease-fire that held until the current crisis.

The British and the Israelis have the blueprints for successful intelligence architecture. This is a key counterinsurgency tool that must be included in the final version of the Pentagon’s counterinsurgency manual. Otherwise, the various anti-American groups in Iraq will continue to own the streets and back alleyways of Ramadi, Falluja and other battlegrounds. And the longer they do, the more likely their dream — to inflict a strategic defeat on America — will seem possible.

Richard H. Shultz Jr., the director of the international security studies program at Tufts University’s Fletcher School, and Andrea J. Dew, the research associate for the program, are the authors of “Insurgents, Terrorists and Militias: The Warriors of Contemporary Combat.”

[Mastermind]

Okay...good points all. But, I'm afraid the forest is being missed because of the trees. The rockets being fired into Israel, by thier nature being ungided and random, destroy the everyday economy ...workers can't wrok while there is an explosive rain. Israel attacking in the larger Lebanaon is designed to demonstrate to the Hezzi that no place is safe and no supply dump and no trasportation system is immune from attack..AND to generate international concern. Let's face it, even by the posts above, everyone seems to be minimizing the damage to Israel (after all, it's only a few hundred rockets and look, hardly any civilians have been actually KILLED). All the while, accusing Israel of "indiscriminate" bombing of poor little Lebanses civilians when everyone knows that if that were the case, there would be hundreds of thousands of dead not hundreds.

The big picture is framed in the context of the radical Islamic manifesto which states quite clearly there can be no end of hostitlity until Israel is destroyed, and every Jew is thrown off Muslim land. Since all of the Palestine area, including all of Israel has been declared "Muslim land" the end is truly a frightening thing if Israel loses. Now, please don't forget, the Muslims have boxed themselves into an all or nothing corner. When they say "Allah commands it" they can never come back from that postion. And they have made it very clear, the usuper Israelites AND their supporters must now be destroyed....thus the United States and several European nations are on the Islamic Radical chopping block.

When God has commaned mere mortals to do His terrible wrath...how does any human organization stop that? When I say "Islamic nuts or crazies" in terms if the Hezzi lunatics, I mean it in comparison to everyone else on earth who is SANE! Believeing God has given you a direct order to murder and kill fellow human beings is nuts in any morality.

This is not going to end...EVER! UNLESS....moderate Islamic leaders come out and put a stop to it. Until then, every nation that is an offense to God according to some LUNATIC Muslim clerec will be under attack.

How do you stop it? Well, I'll let you figure it out. One thing is certain. You sure as hell are not going to stop it by convincing them God is wrong and never really commanded what they think HE commanded. MM

[Argyll]

And the economy of Lebanon isn't suffering too with the bombing their getting?.....it's a mirror image of Israel in terms of workers not being able to work, and civilians living in fear.

When God commanded......good choice of subject, didn't George Bush also have some divine intervention/experience.....and one of SOCOM's Generals also made comments that he was an instrument of God, sent to do his work, or something corny like that?

Can Israel win?......Can they afford to lose shoud be the question, at what point will they decide that Hezbollah is no longer able to function?

Hezbollah has proven to be a tougher nut to crack than anticipated.

[Greek soldier]

And the Israelis were assuring everybody that this crisis would be solved "within days"... it seems they should have instead said "within God knows when".

BTW, I hear Motorola is going to close its facilities in Haifa and transfer them outside of Israel.

[Beaufort]

And the Israelis were assuring everybody that this crisis would be solved "within days"... it seems they should have instead said "within God knows when".


Where did you hear that?

The army wanted the government to let it operate for at least a month.

[Greek soldier]

Where did you hear that?

The army wanted the government to let it operate for at least a month.

From the Greek media, reporting live from Tel Aviv.

[Kitsune]

Thing is, that one cannot deny that Israel is suffering far less than Lebanon in this conflict. OK, they suffer dead as well, yes. The north of Israel feels paralyzed, which has effects on the economy as well, also true. But compared to the destruction wrought in Lebanon, the one in Israel can hardly be compared. I think, that this will become clear after the war at the latest: Israel will do economically just like before in no time, Lebanon will see reduced prosperity for a long period to come.

There is of course the point of the demand to end Israels existence by Islamists. Well, it cannot be denied, that this is something many people in the Muslim world demand today. Including some regimes of certain states or groups like Hezbollah. Israel has any right to register those who openely demand that as enemies of itself.

But to want something and to realize it are two different pair of shoes. And if one looks at how endagered the existence of Israel truly is, one can calm down again.
Hezbollah may be fighting against Israeli forces in an impressive way during this crisis. But they can do that only because they are on the defensive, in Lebanon. Their capabilities to invade Israel and to fight effectively against Zahal there, are nearly nonexistent (with the exception of very short raids, but Israel should be able to get that under control, finally).

Funnily, back in the days of the Six-Day War or the Jom-Kippur War, Arabic states also demanded the end of the state of Israel. Back then, Israel was indeed figthing for its survival - but the Israelis themselves, or America, were LESS radical back then than they are today.

Nowadays, important Arabic states like Jordan and especially Egypt have made their peace with Israel. Since decades no muslim state has dared to pick up arms openly against the Jeweish state. And on top of all this, if really somebody should try to wipe Israel off the map, Israel nowadays can wipe back with nuclear means. (Can do so since the eighties).
If that should still not suffice, Israel's existence is supported or even guaranteed by the USA, the European states and actually all of the West.

In short: whatever Islamist may want, it does not looks as if they would get it. And there should be no reason for anyone in the Jewish state or America to loose ones cool. In fact, to overreact, to manage things irrationally, based more on feelings and because of an rising religious fanaticsm in Israel and America, is a far greatest danger than the Islamists themselves.
Israel's behaviour illustrates that very well. It massively over-reacted, behaved neither intelligently nor morally after an successful Hezbollah attack which was humiliating but hardly of large scale.

So what should one have done? Against Hezzbollah attempts to kidnap Israelis soldiers for example? Well, the Israeli army is said to be one of the best in the world. And its not the case that their boys would be involved in peace-keeping operations all over Lebanon, which would make them an comparatively easy target for abduction. On the contrary, there is a clear-cut borderline. North is "Hezzi", south Israeli territory. This border was largely calm but everyone who visited it says that there was a strongly felt tension in the air. Every soldier of Zahal knew that it was dangerous, every Hezzbollah member knew that as well. In this situation it should be do-able to prevent kidnappings. The basic rule is: Behave cautiously and if Hezbollah guerilla try something, well, shoot them. I mean, its not as if IDF is helpless or something, isn't it? And if Israeli soldiers should really not manage to prevent being abducted (which strikes me as somewhat absurd), well then, what about a wall? Or a fence, if Israel prefers that term. Allegedly that works splendidly against Paelstinians, so why not to secure the border to Lebanon this way?

But what about rockets and mortar attacks? There were some, aye. But not many. Today there are more rockets fired into Israel on one single day than Hezbollah fired during the whole six years between the Israeli withdrawal and the outbreak of this crisis. And there is a simple solution to that as well. Measure the number of explosives falling on Israel's soil, multiply it by ten and bomb Hezbollah assets with that amount of stuff. Make no secret out of the fact that this is an retaliation for yesterdays Katjushas falling on Metulla or whatever. But leave it at that. No systematic and open-ended boming of all Lebanon.The game of Israel towards Hezbollah should be simply: "You don't bomb us, we don't bomb you. You do bomb us, we do bomb you - with our bombs being bigger than yours."

If this is kept up with patience, no one can say that Israel would be weak. And as said, its existence isn't really in danger. If Jerusalem behaves rationally and sticks to measured actions without losing its contenance, this will serve the interests of the Jewish state and the whole western world best - and the interests of Islamists least.

As it is now the child has already fallen into the well, of course, and we have to see how this crisis can be ended without Israel and the West losing too much face. But if Jerusalem has chosen not to learn from America's ill fated Iraq action, they should definitely learn something now. Rationality, moderation and patience: that is the way.
Those virtues always pay off in the end.

[Beaufort]

Thing is, that one cannot deny that Israel is suffering far less than Lebanon in this conflict. OK, they suffer dead as well, yes. The north of Israel feels paralyzed, which has effects on the economy as well, also true. But compared to the destruction wrought in Lebanon, the one in Israel can hardly be compared. I think, that this will become clear after the war at the latest: Israel will do economically just like before in no time, Lebanon will see reduced prospperity for a long period to come.


Lebanon should have capitalized on the tail wind that followed Hariri's death and deal with Hizbollah right after they dealt with Syria.

*Ah, so you got rid of Syria... well what good is it when you have a Syrian proxy which has created a state within a state?*

They could have done so by asking for an international force that would back up the Lebanese army when retaking the positions on the southern border.

But the truth is that the Lebanese government was comfortable with the status quo that existed since the IDF pullout from the Security Zone in 2000.

They probably thought to themselves why sould they care if every so often the Hizbollah carries out provocations from within their border? It doesn't concern them. The IDF left in 2000, there's no chance that it will return...

Well now it seems that Nasrallah has taken them on quite a trip. All I will say is that when you sleep with a dog... don't be too surprised when you wake up with fleas.

And right now I have heard that the Lebanese government is calling up 15,000 reservists to be sent to the southern border to actually execute the sovereignty of the Lebanese state.

Well I guess Siniora just showed us that when you want something enough, you'll do what is needed in order to get it.



But to want something and to realize it are two different pair of shoes. And if one looks at how endagered the existence of Israel truly is, one can calm down again.
Hezbollah may fight an impressive fight against Israeli forces in this crisis. But they can do that only because they are on the defensive, in Lebanon. Their capabolities to invade Israel and to fight effectively against Zahal there, are nearly nonexistent (with the exception of very short raids, but Israel should be able to get that under control, finally).


Hizbollah was arming itself more and more and getting bolder and bolder.

Today it's the abduction of soldiers, in a week they will be holding whole communities on the border as hostages.

Israel as a nation doesn't need an existential threat in order to jusitfy going to war. Like every nation it has the right to defend its sovereignty and its citizens way of life.



Funnily, back in the days of the Six-Day War or the Jom-Kippur War, Arabic states also demanded the end of the state of Israel. Back then, Israel was indeed figthing for its survival - but the Israelis themselves, or America, were LESS radical back then than they are today.


I really don't see anything to back this up.

Is Israel more radical because it went to war due to an unprevoked attack that left eight soldiers dead and two others abducted whild civilian communities were shelled?

Not to mention 6 years of provocations and 12,000 rockets pointing at its civilian population centers.



In short: whatever Islamist may want, it does not looks as if they would get it. And there should be no reason for anyone in the Jewish state or America to loose ones cool. In fact, to overreact, to manage things irrational, based more on feelings and because of an rising religious fanaticsm in Israel and America, is a far greatest danger than the Islamists themselves.
Israel's behaviour illustrates that very well. It massively over-reacted, behaved neither intelligently nor morally after an successful Hezbollah attack which was humiliating but hardly of large scale.


I'm sure Mrs. Goldwasser and Mrs. Regev would be relieved to hear that it is we who are the real danger and not the people who abducted their husbands.

I'm also sure that the dozens of famalies of soldiers and civilians killed in Hizbollah attacks in the past 6 years would agree wholeheartedly.

:roll:



well then, what about a wall? Or a fence, if Israel prefers that term. Allegedly that works splendidly against Paelstinians, so why not to secure the border to Lebanon this way?


I tend to call it a 'barrier' as 97% of it is actullay a fence while the rest (which gets all the publicity) is a wall.

Why isn't it going to work?

A) The cost of building a wall and the terrain on which the border passes won't allow it.

B) If Hizbollah can destory a Merkava tank with an IED, then it can blow holes through walls.

C) It would take quite a while and I'm sure no one would want to work while in the gun sights of Hizbollah.

D) Walls don't stop rockets and mortars.




But what about rockets and mortar attacks? There were some, aye. But not many. Today there are more rockets fired into Israel on one single day than Hezbollah fired during the whole six years between the Israeli withdrawal and the outbreak of this crisis. And there is a simple solution to that as well. Measure the number of explosives falling on Israel's soil, mulitply it by ten and bomb Hezbollah assets with that amount of stuff. Make no secret out of the fact that this is an retaliation for yesterdays Katjushas falling on Metulla or whatever. But leave it at that. No systematic and open-ended boming of all Lebanon.The game of Israel towards Hezbollah should be simply: "You don't bomb us, we don't bomb you. You do bomb us, we do bomb you - with our bombs being bigger than yours."


So you are saying that we should hit them harder each time they fire at us... gosh how come we didn't think of that. :roll:

[Freibier]

Good post Kitsune, well put!

[Mastermind]

No..it is not a good post...it's filled with irrationalities and half truths. One is that Israels existance is not threatened...when the enemy, a well known terrorist organizations started this, backed by two faily powerful Islamic radical nations, Iran and Syria...one of which may be less than a year from developing deliverable nuclear weapons and all the enemy nations involved have openly declared their determination to utterly destroy Israel....So, how can you rationally say Israel's existance is not threatened this time? Second, You seem to want some sort of equivalent destruction and mayhem...so Israel's "disproportionalte" response is evil becasue they are not using indsicrimiante rocket fire into population centers? How absured is that? By Israel using precision targeted munitions, and hitting well identified rocket supply and launch sites and Hezzi infrastructure and interdicting re-supply routes from Syria, you call that "Bombing all of Lebanon and indiscriminately killing civilains"...If Israels were really doing what you accuse them of, there would be hundreds of thousands of dead and not hundreds...most of whom are actually Hezzi fighters...unfortunately the media call them "innocent civilains, women and children". And you fall for that line of crapola. Surprise!

No..what we have here is a war started by a nationless Radical Islamic entity that can never be negotiated with becasue of the 1956 Islamic conference that detailed God's instructions to all Muslims to utterly destroy the occupiers of Muslim land...IE all of Palistine area...which really encompasses a huge area. They are instructed to kill every usuper of God's law and that murder instruction includes all nations who helped Israel occupy the land. Iran and Syria have inflamed the hearts of young Muslims who have been poisoned by their hate from toddler age...Israel's mere presense is enough. Yes, Israel must fight like hell to stop these criminal murdering savages. If Israel loses the consequinces are too horrible to contemplate...millions will die and be displaced. If the Hezzi lose, oh well, they will just fade away into another civilian population and come out some other day.

Get it through your head this is not a game..there is no "fairness" about it. If a ntion is to survive it must fight with all it has. Surrender, compromise, negotiation is simply not an option any longer.

You want it to end? Quit carrying the murdering savage's flag for them..call them what they are. They are not fighting for a country or a people...they are fighting to achieve eradication of a soverign nation. That nation is the democratic free nation of Israel.

[tanks_alot]

The loop continues.....


Thing is, that one cannot deny that Israel is suffering far less than Lebanon in this conflict. OK, they suffer dead as well, yes. The north of Israel feels paralyzed, which has effects on the economy as well, also true. But compared to the destruction wrought in Lebanon, the one in Israel can hardly be compared. I think, that this will become clear after the war at the latest: Israel will do economically just like before in no time, Lebanon will see reduced prospperity for a long period to come.

sorry we got a bigger stick and that we are not dying and suffring proportionally enough for you.



There is of course the point of the demand to end Israels existence by Islamists. Well, it cannot be denied, that this is something many people in the Muslim world demand today. Including some regimes of certain states or groups like Hezbollah. Israel has any right to register those who openely demand that as enemies of itself.
wow progress, thanks it means so much.



But to want something and to realize it are two different pair of shoes. And if one looks at how endagered the existence of Israel truly is, one can calm down again.
Hezbollah may fight an impressive fight against Israeli forces in this crisis. But they can do that only because they are on the defensive, in Lebanon. Their capabolities to invade Israel and to fight effectively against Zahal there, are nearly nonexistent (with the exception of very short raids, but Israel should be able to get that under control, finally).
Hezbollah has been getting ready for this for six years now, they have/had the ability to paralyze the north of Israel, now it might be a mere nuisance(according to you), during a conflict with Iran it might be a serious strategic problem.



Funnily, back in the days of the Six-Day War or the Jom-Kippur War, Arabic states also demanded the end of the state of Israel. Back then, Israel was indeed figthing for its survival - but the Israelis themselves, or America, were LESS radical back then than they are today.
really? so a limited ground operation against the puppet while avoiding the puppeters seems more radical to you than invading 3 countries?



Nowadays, important Arabic states like Jordan and especially Egypt have made their peace with Israel. Since decades no muslim state has dared to pick up arms openly against the Jeweish state. And on top of all this, if really somebody should try to wipe Israel off the map, Israel nowadays can wipe back with nuclear means. (Can do so since the eighties).
If that should still not suffice, Israel's existence is supported or even guaranteed by the USA, the European states and actually all of the West.
we can do it since the 60's actualy and no country ever picked up arms in defence of Israel (other than maybe the Patriot batteries during the golf war that actualy did more harm than good)



In short: whatever Islamist may want, it does not looks as if they would get it. And there should be no reason for anyone in the Jewish state or America to loose ones cool. In fact, to overreact, to manage things irrational, based more on feelings and because of an rising religious fanaticsm in Israel and America, is a far greatest danger than the Islamists themselves.
Israel's behaviour illustrates that very well. It massively over-reacted, behaved neither intelligently nor morally after an successful Hezbollah attack which was humiliating but hardly of large scale.
again you fail to look at the larger picture and you should listen to Nassrals spider web's speech to figure out Hezbollah's strategy.
obviously you know a great deal about religous Israel, don't let the fact that Israel is a secular country bother you.
calling me and most of the people around me religous is a joke and i fully support a full scale mobilization as opposed to the ridicoules and mostly aimless operation that is being waged.
the day i'll get the brown envelope with a big צ on it, i'll pack my bag and go without hesetation.



So what should one have done? According to Hezzbollah attempts to kidnap Israelis soldiers for example? Well, the Israeli army is said to be one of the best in the world. And its not the case that their boys would be involved in peace-keeping operations all over Lebanon, which would make them an comparatively easy target for abduction. On the contrary, there is a clear-cut bordeline. North is "Hezzi", south Israeli territory. This border was largely calm but everyone who visited it says that there was a strongly felt tension in the air. Every soldier of Zahal knew that it was dangerous, every Hezzbollah member knew that as well. In this situation it should be do-able to prevent kidnappings. The basic rule is: Behave cautiously and if Hezbollah guerilla try something, well, shoot them. I mean, its not as if IDF is helpless or something, isn't it? And if Israeli soldiers should really not manage to prevent being abducted (which strikes me as somewhat absurd), well then, what about a wall? Or a fence, if Israel prefers that term. Allegedly that works splendidly against Paelstinians, so why not to secure the border to Lebanon this way?
the wall on the west bank works because it prevents suicide bombers to pass into Israel, it will not help against rockets and it won't help if the soldiers at the border are the target.

you are obviously a man with rich military experince, so you should know that when you operate in a static location you can be easily targeted in hit and run tactics.



But what about rockets and mortar attacks? There were some, aye. But not many. Today there are more rockets fired into Israel on one single day than Hezbollah fired during the whole six years between the Israeli withdrawal and the outbreak of this crisis. And there is a simple solution to that as well. Measure the number of explosives falling on Israel's soil, mulitply it by ten and bomb Hezbollah assets with that amount of stuff. Make no secret out of the fact that this is an retaliation for yesterdays Katjushas falling on Metulla or whatever. But leave it at that. No systematic and open-ended boming of all Lebanon.The game of Israel towards Hezbollah should be simply: "You don't bomb us, we don't bomb you. You do bomb us, we do bomb you - with our bombs being bigger than yours."
again, you ignore the bigger picture and why Hezbollah has been storing all of those rockets.



If this is kept up with patience, no one can say that Israel would be weak. And as said, its existence isn't really in danger. If Jerusalem behaves rational and sticks to measured actions without losing its contenance, this will serve the interests of the Jewish state and the whole western world best - and the interests of Islamists least.

Israel has tried to go along with your patience method for the last six year and was rewarded by random attacks, this is the middle east and restraint is viewd as weakness here.

you'r german right? when Germany will be shelled i would like to see you talk about patience, last time your country was at war, one day of fighting was worse than the last 60 years of fighting we have here.



As it is now the child has already fallen into the well, of course, and we have to see how this crisis can be ended without Israel and the West losing to much face. But if Jerusalem has chosen not to learn from America's ill fated Iraq action, they should definitely learn something now. Rationality, morderation and patience: that is the way.
Those virtues always pay off in the end.
Lebanon is not Iraq and we are not trying to replace a regime, invading in force, finishing the job and than pulling back while being replaced by a strong peace keeping force should work, it also worked in 1982 only than we went for the whole replacing regime thing and ended up sinking into the Lebanese mud for a very long time.

[frenchy]

a change in the head of the IDF, today.

http://www.jpost.com/servlet/Satellite?cid=1154525832393&pagename=JPost%2FJPArticle%2FShowFull

So is it possible that tsahal will change his strategy, now ?

[Norcom]

Can Israel win what? The current conflict? If so, politically, militarily or both? Longterm survival as a separate State? The regional balance of power is and has been undergoing change. The answer is ...

[marge]

:) , yes, peace.

thats all they want, thats why they will win.p-)

[Mastermind]

They will win nothing...it is not a "winnable" situation. MM

[Kitsune]

An interesting (but long) article about cause and effect of this crisis can be found in the New Yorker, written by the notorious Seymour Hersh:

http://www.newyorker.com/fact/content/articles/060821fa_fact

(In case you don't like it, do note that I am not the author, I just provided the link. So, please don't kill the messenger...)

[Mailman]

Condensed readers digest version please?

Does it blame them nasty jooos or them nasty americans?

Mailman

[Decebalus]

Well we don't know who won but we sure know who lost. The Lebanese civilians lost the most. The only winners here are the companies that will rebuilt Lebanon. Thats all.

A truce is on. What did Israel achieve?

1. The kidnapped soldiers are still kidnapped.

2. Hezbolah isn't destroyed.

3. Hezbolah isn't disarmed.

4. Hezbolah is still present in the south.

5. They can still shoot rockets at Israel. They shot 250 yesterday.

So what did Israel achieve?

159 dead, hundreds of wounded, and best of all they did keep their promise and turned back Lebanon 20 years. Thats the only thing they said they would do which they actually did.

And now the Shaba farms are back on the negociation table. Israel came out of this worst than it was during the status quo.

[inche yao?]

I agree with you Decebalus,

Frankly, Olmert's speech today was pretty week, a few words here and there to save face.

Many said in the real world out and on this board that this can only solved diplomatically.

Israel lost its ability to win on on the ground war.

[Switek]

Thanks Kitsune for the link.

We will know the ultimate winner in few months. Now everything depends of diplomacy. I see one problem that this war could unite Lebaneses and HZ'd be recognized as a "defender of homeland" not as so far Iranian mercenaries.

I wouldn't be supprised if HZ fighters are being drafted to the police and Lebanese army..

[inche yao?]

Thanks Kitsune for the link.

We will know the ultimate winner in few months. Now everything depends of diplomacy. I see one problem that this war could unite Lebaneses and HZ'd be recognized as a "defender of homeland" not as so far Iranian mercenaries.

I wouldn't be supprised if HZ fighters are being drafted to the police and Lebanese army..

Switek, you think the brains of Washington and Tel Aviv could have thought about that before.

Guess who most Lebanese will vote during the next elections.

[Friendly_guy]

Guess who most Lebanese will vote during the next elections.


For who will they vote in the next elections ?

[inche yao?]

not pro west, U.S. sent blankets to Beirut, but sent 1 Ton laser guided bombs to Israel.

They will vote for pro Syria/Iran government. Hezees have a very powerful population in Lebanon, and they are not happy with Condi having too much fun jet setting around the globe.

[Decebalus]

Yep, and the worse is yet to come. IDF soldiers given permission to steal food.


IDF general: Soldiers may steal food from south Lebanon storeshttp://www.haaretz.com/hasen/images/0.gif

"If our fighters deep in Lebanese territory are left without food our water, I believe they can break into local Lebanese stores to solve that problem," Brigadier General Avi Mizrahi, the head of the Israel Defense Forces logistics branch, said Monday.

Mizrahi's comments followed complaints by IDF soldiers regarding the lack of food on the front lines.

One of the strongest armies in the world having problems feeding its soldiers. And their not even that far from home. :|

http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/750384.html

[Friendly_guy]

not pro west, U.S. sent blankets to Beirut, but sent 1 Ton laser guided bombs to Israel.

They will vote for pro Syria/Iran government. Hezees have a very powerful population in Lebanon, and they are not happy with Condi having too much fun jet setting around the globe.



My Friends what do you know about lebanon??

you are 100% mistaken.Hizballah popularity is decreasing after what happened on the 12th of july.
Most of the lebanese want to disarm Hizballah and especially the christains.

[inche yao?]

It was as such during the beginning of the war, but given Israel carpet bombed the south and destroyed Lebanons future for at least 15 years, most people joined their voice.

Since Hezees put up a good fight and the Merkavas are dropping like LEGOs, the population grew more pro Hezees.

Also, the moderates in Lebanon and I mean the Christians, Druze, Sunnins and moderate Shiites saw the double standard the U.S. played its role in Lebanon giving Israel the green light AND the weapons it needs, they changed their views.

[Friendly_guy]

It was as such during the beginning of the war, but given Israel carpet bombed the south and destroyed Lebanons future for at least 15 years, most people joined their voice.

Since Hezees put up a good fight and the Merkavas are dropping like LEGOs, the population grew more pro Hezees.

Also, the moderates in Lebanon and I mean the Christians, Druze, Sunnins and moderate Shiites saw the double standard the U.S. played its role in Lebanon giving Israel the green light AND the weapons it needs, they changed their views.


Sorry I disagree with you.

You must read lebanese newspappers,lebanese forums and check the views of the lebanese.
Everytime Isreal was targetting the lebanese,the population of hizballah was decreasing.Lebanese think that its hizballah fault, they crossed the blue line and kidnapped the two isreali soldeirs.
The main lebanse parties are agianst hizballah (FM,PSP,LF except FPM) and they want them to get disarmed.
Anyways the lebanese elections will take place in 2009,three more years to go.

Regards

[tanks_alot]

It was as such during the beginning of the war, but given Israel carpet bombed the south and destroyed Lebanons future for at least 15 years, most people joined their voice.

Since Hezees put up a good fight and the Merkavas are dropping like LEGOs, the population grew more pro Hezees.

Also, the moderates in Lebanon and I mean the Christians, Druze, Sunnins and moderate Shiites saw the double standard the U.S. played its role in Lebanon giving Israel the green light AND the weapons it needs, they changed their views.

You are stating your own opinions and not Lebanon's, do you think the sheite population returning to the south now would understand it if they are to be used as human shields again and turned to refugees?

who do you think payed for the rebuilding of Lebanon and who will pay now?

do you think all of the rich arab countries would respand their money on Lebanon knowing that their invesment depands on the whims of an islamic extremist?

the people of Lebanon know this and you can hear many angry voices coming from within Lebanon today towards Hezbollah, while some are even gloating over Hezbollah's losses in this conflict.

[Friendly_guy]

You are stating your own opinions and not Lebanon's, do you think the sheite population returning to the south now would understand it if they are to be used as human shields again and turned to refugees?

who do you think payed for the rebuilding of Lebanon and who will pay now?

do you think all of the rich arab countries would respand their money on Lebanon knowing that their invesment depands on the whims of an islamic extremist?

the people of Lebanon know this and you can hear many angry voices coming from within Lebanon today towards Hezbollah, while some are even gloating over Hezbollah's losses in this conflict.



100% agree with you

Thank you
Regards

[inche yao?]

You are stating your own opinions and not Lebanon's, do you think the sheite population returning to the south now would understand it if they are to be used as human shields again and turned to refugees?

who do you think payed for the rebuilding of Lebanon and who will pay now?

do you think all of the rich arab countries would respand their money on Lebanon knowing that their invesment depands on the whims of an islamic extremist?

the people of Lebanon know this and you can hear many angry voices coming from within Lebanon today towards Hezbollah, while some are even gloating over Hezbollah's losses in this conflict.


Tanks Alot, you are thinking like what most in the west would think,

you have to think like a Lebanese who just witnessed his/her country just got destroyed by Israel.

[Friendly_guy]

you have to think like a Lebanese who just witnessed his/her country just got destroyed by Israel.


oh then are you lebanese ???

[DeltaWhisky58]

Tanks Alot, you are thinking like what most in the west would think,

you have to think like a Lebanese who just witnessed his/her country just got destroyed by Israel.

And your point is ... ... ?

Whichever way you look at it, you're a long way from Lebanon mate and haven't witnessed it any more than I have, other than on TV. Face up to reality, whichever way around the world you go you're still the better part of 7,500 miles from Lebanon.

If you have as strong a feeling for Lebanon as you claim, maybe you should establish your credibility by putting your cards on the table rather than posting as above. If you were to make things more clear, we might see your point a little better.

[inche yao?]

And your point is ... ... ?

Whichever way you look at it, you're a long way from Lebanon mate and haven't witnessed it any more than I have, other than on TV. Face up to reality, whichever way around the world you go you're still the better part of 7,500 miles from Lebanon.

If you have as strong a feeling for Lebanon as you claim, maybe you should establish your credibility by putting your cards on the table rather than posting as above. If you were to make things more clear, we might see your point a little better.

Very well, I will tell you how it is.

I am Lebanese, and a proud one. I am also a christian and far away from Hizbullah territory. During the beginning of this war, Hezees were shaking things up in the south and sure enough they did what they thought was a good bargaining chip.

With this week Olmert government and the arrogant Israeli defense forces, Israel used this to show Uncle Sam that the war on "terrorism" will continue into Lebanon and wipe Hizbullah once and for all.

Many here (on this board) have said that Israel can't win this war and as many wars in Lebanon, it is a complete failure for any invading army that fights in Lebanon. Lebanese have hope one thing the Israelis lack.

Every government of Israel has failed the Lebanese war and sure enough Olmert did as well just like his past ones.

Where do I come in, we voted for this pro west government. What they got is a slap in the face. My fathers jam factory was bombed in the beqaa valley. A jam factory, I am sure the Hezees are eating jam thus justifying creating a crater the size of a football field in the middle of it. All my letters to U.S. officials came back unanswered or the message simply said, "Thank you for your support" "Remember us during the primariries" Yeh, primaries.

Frankly, the Israeli intelligence failed miserably BIG TIME in this war. Hezees or no Hezees, our factory is gone. It was a donation from the U.S. government that MY tax money paid for.

And oh yes, please get into flames of "why did you not throw the hezzes out" or " you had your chance" seems that many have a short term memory that Lebanon is THE ONLY Arab Democracy in the world. Many remember what happend in GAZA when George W.'s Democracy was a slap in HIS face when Hammas took over.

This is how U.S. foreign policy works. Clinton negotiatedm but Bush is the "decider"

Lebanon lost in this war, and lost dearly. Israel pretty mush took their foot and simply placed it in their mouth. Who won? Wanna guess?

Read on Haaretz the shake up in Israel now.

[DeltaWhisky58]

Thank you Inche Yao - your posts make a little more sense now even if you are clearly a long way from home.

I have tried to keep an open mind all along, having seen from a distance a few more of Israel's conflicts than the majority of our membership - Yes, I remember the Six-day war, and all those since.

Until now, I have tended towards the Israeli point of view, however this time I am less than certain. I certainly feel for you and your family together with the others caught in the crossfire, however I cant help wondering that if the people of Lebanon had made the Hezbollah fighters less welcome, the Israeli may have been less likely to hit Hezbollah quite so hard as we have witnessed over recent weeks. This would probably not have been the case, but it is a point to consider.

[Decebalus]

Well, what inche yao is saying makes more sense when we get headlines like these:

http://www.guardian.co.uk/israel/Story/0,,1844240,00.html


******* reported that thousands of cars were queuing on a bomb-damaged road leading south from the port city of Sidon. Drivers hooted their horns, gave victory salutes and showed pictures of the Hizbullah leader, Hassan Nasrallah.
"Since day one, the resistance [Hizbillah] told us that it will get us back our homes, and now it has delivered on its promise," one woman told *******. "Thank you, Hassan Nasrallah."


And now the order to take food from stores........

Well we see where that goes :roll:

When cockroaches invade your homes, you blame them, but when the cleaners burn your home to get the cockroaches, you change your blame.

Its kind of like how this is

[inche yao?]

Thank you DeltaWhisky58,

Ironically, I have relatives in Israel also in Nazareth where they were also effected by this war. Many casualties on both sides. I feel helpless thinking what is going on in the minds of the mothers and fathers who lost loved ones, and not only material.

I just hope, history will STOP repeating itself and that the weapons man has created to create peace and democracy will not be used any more.

I am going back as soon as the airport opens to help my father rebuild with whatever funds we have set aside. He still wants to export Lebanese jam to countries around the world. He lovesdoing it.

We tried very hard to live in peace for many years, we lived under Syrian occupation who were nothing but corrupt disgusting selfish human beings who tortured local civilians to make a quick buck. They left and we had our day in history, we said finally we can breath a little.

I just hope, and I hope, that everycountry who wants to stick their nose in Lebanon will just leave us alone. This goes for all of them, Syria, Iran, Israel, U.S. who ever. We had enough suffering.

If Hizbullah wants to play politics in Lebanon, fine. It is a secular and VERY secular country. There are so many different relegions and they all want to dance. Hizbullah is one of them, it is simply impossible to to get "rid" of them.

I hope the military wing of Hizbullah will quit, but to quit without firing a single bullet and that the Army will once again protect the borders. We mean no harm, we just want to live in peace. This goes to Israel too...please leave us alone. I hope EVERYONE learned from this war and not just Israel...this goes to President Bush.

God bless us all.

Thanks.

[DeltaWhisky58]

Good luck to you and your family Inche Yao.

[Mastermind]

Diplomacy? There can be no diplomacy here. Well, except for this bit, "Dear Hizbulla and et al...WE SURRENDER...MM

[Switek]

I'm cofused, very confused.

This war hasn't been between Israel and Lebanon, nor Israelis and Lebaneses. Hezbollah has never become so influental political and military power withouth transfer few milions $ month by month from Iran and military support from Syria. No one is is blamimg Damascus or Iran for current situation. Always the same: two orderly enemies, devils: USA and Israel. I'm sick of it...

I underestand pain, frustration of many innocent casualities. People who unwillingly get implicated to pay price: lost their relatives, neighbors and property. It's hard to imagine whan a man can feel in that situation. But I'm sure that Lebanon will get a huge international aid not only humanitarian but also long term economic (financial).

There is a president of Polska Akcja Humanitarna (Polish Humanitarian Action) in the region, who organize help for Lebaneses. There are plenty of other organisations from all around the world who want and give help civilians from Lebanon.

PAH is going to organize humanitarian aid for civilian Israelis, refuges an those who lost relatives, homes etc. You know what? PAH is only international organisation who pay attention to Israeli casualities. No other present. No one, IMHO, is interested to help Israeli Arabs too...

In long term when no single missle threthens northen Israel when no HZ terrorist opens fire to Israeli soldiers then Both sides Israel and Lebanon will win. Well I'm sure that this truce and further peace must be monitored. There are extremists in every population...

[Switek]

Diplomacy? There can be no diplomacy here. Well, except for this bit, "Dear Hizbulla and et al...WE SURRENDER...MM

MM I meant diplomacy which will be able to stop Syria an Iran in further muddle in the region. Without it truce, peace gonna be complete defeat...

[tanks_alot]

Inche Yao, i'm sorry for your family's misfortune but i'm just so sick of the: it's everyone's fault but us, attitude.

do you actualy belive this was some kind of colonialistic attempt by Israel?
do you think this mini war might have something to do with the fact that the south of your country has in fact turned into a seperate country that continuosuly attacks another country?

your prefferd to turn a blind eye to Hezbollah and ended up paying the price, your too scared to ignite the civil war? good for you but did you honestly belive Israel will bend over forever?

try to understand, we don't like Lebanon, we have no grand plans to annex it or something of that sort, all we want is peace in the north, so saying well i hope you learned your lesson and you'll leave us alone now, while Hezbollah is still alive and kicking, vowing to continue attacking Israel means YOU havn't learned your lesson.

even now the operation was very limited, from an army of 700,000 you had 30,000 men in Lebanon, operating in a very limited way, Israel will learn from it's mistakes, we've been in the game for a long time now and if Hezbollah will not be dealt with than in the end this was just another round.

so some people will say, just release the 3 prisoners and give the Sheba farms (which belong to Syria) so Hezbollah will have no excuse to keep fighting but Lebanon has a goverment and if Lebanon is intrested in those things it should have tried to negotiate with Israel instead of letting Hezbollah to run loose and BTW Hezbollah has already thought of the next excuse to keep fighting after that: they now say that a number of israeli border towns belong to Lebanon historically.....:roll:

[inche yao?]

I thank you guys for your support for the losses, It is just material and memories

Tanks and everyone,

I do, or the Lebanese do not turn a blind eye on the Hizb issue, they are all aware and VERY much aware of the immense fire power they have.

During the 89, at the height of the Civil war, a Lebanese army general declared war against Syria the occupier of MOST of Lebanon. But obiously, he was doing so to gain popularity and put pressure on the Syrians to withdraw. But alas, the U.S. was busy in Kuwait, and gave the Syrians the green light to take this general out of Lebanon by bombing the presidential palace using Sukhoi jets thus giving 90% of Lebanon to Syria. This was a gift for the Syrians to be sort of involved in the Gulf War and the fight for Kuwait. Note: Syria would not have dared launch Syrian fighter jets without the approval of the U.S. and of course Israel.

What the Syrians did then is place a puppet government in Lebanon under SYRIAN conditions and SYRIAN rules. They dissolved all the militia except for Hizbullah. The U.S. knew then that the Syrian intentions were nothing more than the "firefighter" and the "arsosnist'.

Now Bush is sayin Syria is axis of evil and yada yada...this is why the Lebanese paid a very heavy price for all the politics and the wars that "outsiders" played within my country.

I have been to Israel a few times. I like it over there and there are plenty of similarities between the 2 countries. I too want a peaceful border between the two nations so that we can exchange falafel recipes :hug: , rather than missiles and harsh language.

Tanksalot, one thing I agree with you heavily is the fact that I do blame the Lebanese for this also. Don't get me wrong, they were the ones who invited the Syrians in, they were the ones who fell into the corruption of selling their country for what? I do the blame the STUPID and I do mean the STUPID arabs for allowing the PLO to carry arms in Lebanon back in the 70s.

In 75, it was the Syrian invasion. In 83, it was the Israeli invasion and a pro Israeli leb government. Everytime, it was WE the Lebanese who sold their country for the powers to be.

I hope the farms situation, the Israeli Hostages in the hands of Hizbullah, the Leb prisoners, and all what is left between Lebanon and Israeli can be solved peacefully and not through violence.

I want to be able to drive to Israel from Lebanon and not fly through Larnaca, and vice verca from Israel we want to welcome visitors one day.

I hope what you said about the "Historic" towns or whatever, i just hope that will be something we can keep smiling about and not reality.

[Friendly_guy]

Inche Yao I hope you didn't understand me wrong.Don't think that I support Isreal in this war but I surely don't support Hizballah.
Lebanon didn't have anything to do in this war,but unfortunatly we suffered the most from it.
-1200 Killed,
- 4000 injured
- 250.000 left the country
-1.000.000 refugees
-1.000.000 Tourists gone
-10 Billion $ Lost

I am lebanese christain too and I hope 1 day I would return and find my country strong with no foreign countries interfering or any militias on our land.:)

Regards

[inche yao?]

I am lebanese christain too and I hope 1 day I would return and find my country strong with no foreign countries interfering or any militias on our land.:)

Regards


+1 Brother, AMEN to that!

[PeterG]

And now for the interesting question: Will the Hizbollah leadership, after this victory, voluntarily disarm, or even accept any loss of power or influence in Lebanon? That must seem a rather ironic proposition to them now. What will Nasrallah do next? - Does he call the shots, or will he be told by Iran/Syria what to do?

[inche yao?]

There are some discussions going on in Beirut about the Hizbullah's military wing. It is a very tense, it seesm that the U.N. resolution did not mention all points the leb government had presented in Rome. Such as the farms, and the lebanese prisoners. I do believe this is a new chapter in Lebanon as well. It will take time, a national defense strategy will be in place and that will include HAs military wing. But first, the LEB army needs to be beefed up to global defensive standards (note only defensive).

Nasrallah still calls the shots in Southern Lebanon and South Beirut. There will be no "accountability" or accusations regarding this war in Lebanon because of the extreme fragile situation we are in now. From what I understand, the final outcome of Hizbullahs military wing will be discussed once the farms and the leb prisoners is solved along with the return of the Israeli soldiers.

In the long run, they will disarm. The turning point is when Nasrallah openly agreed to bring the army to the south as long s they are powerfull enough to defend any aggression. This is at least some good news. In the past, you will not have heard these words from his mouth.