SF in Northern Iraq & Operation VIKING HAMMER

[ssardon]

Just reading the chapter in Robin Moore's new book where he talks about VIKING HAMMER and the destruction of the Ansar al-Islam camp. From his report this was one of the biggest hits against organized terrorists or terroristw bases ever. Is this true, and if so, why haven't we heard more about it?

Where could I find out more info on this? I think I remember reading a series of articles in Soldier of Fortune, but don't know where to find them. Any help?

[scm77]

I want to read that book. I just finished reading "The Hunt For Bin Laden". It was great. woot

[fantassin]

That book was riddled with mistakes and bias.

For example, he writes that France was supplying Iraq with spare parts for Mirage 2000s in the running up to the war without even checking whether Iraq operated Mirage 2000s.

Iraq never operated Mirage 2000s, France wasn't supplying military hardware at the time of writing of the book and the author maybe was in his prime 40 years ago in Vietnam but should now be in a retirement home rather than produce such inaccuracies for an audience that's ready to believe anything as long as it goes in the way of its believes.

[Trident-za]

I want to read that book. I just finished reading "The Hunt For Bin Laden". It was great. woot

It was an entertaining read... but it was spoilt for me by reading the comments by SF guys on Socnet. Apparently, there was a hell of a lot of inaccuracy and "liberal use of the truth". In addition, many many many questions exist about the integrity of Jack Idema (I think that's the name), one of the "heroes" of the book.

In short, I was disheartened to discover how not-true this "true account" of America's SFs was.

[fantassin]

From Amazon.com, a very interesting comment from a reader of "The huntfor BL"


DOES MOORE JUST MAKE STUFF UP?, January 9, 2004

Reviewer: steve baughman (see more about me) from san francisco


Does Moore Just Make Stuff Up?

Robin Moore is not to be trusted with facts. It is quite clear that he just makes them up as he goes. Take, for instance, his novel claim that CIA Agent Mike Spann was "captured alive and tortured by the al-Qaida" before he was killed at the Qala-Jangi prison uprising. (Paperback page 212). This astonishing revelation is contrary to every media account I have seen of Spann's death. It is also contrary to the sources cited in Moore's own bibliography, as well as to the eyewitness version of Spann's death that Moore cites on page 207, death by hand grenade during a physical struggle with a prisoner. Moore's torture story would also be news to Spann's wife, Sharon, who has publicly thanked God on the Billy Graham website for sparing her husband a painful death. "It gave me a little blessing," she said, "to know that perhaps God had honored my prayer in that Mike wasn't tortured. He didn't suffer. His death was quick."

It would also be news to the C.I.A., whose press releases say nothing of torture and repeatedly state that Spann died during a prison riot. Not surprisingly, Moore offers no footnote or source citation for his gruesome death-by-torture story. Did he just make it up?

Likewise, Moore's description of "hard core al-Qaida" John Walker Lindh is loaded with new and astonishing, and probably false, allegations. He states at page 217 that "Walker admitted that his goal was to be martyred, dying in the act of killing Americans." He also quotes Lindh as stating that Americans must die "to cleanse the world of the infidel." Moore's source for these shocking statements? None given.

I have spent considerable time attempting to locate reports and documents that support Moore's assertions about Lindh's statements. They appear not to exist. Certainly U.S. government prosecutors were not aware of these statements by Lindh. Government court filings contain no statements resembling those Moore attributes to Lindh. On the contrary, the Indictment filed by the Government states that Lindh was asked by al-Qaida to participate in operations against the U.S. and Israel but that he refused. (Indictment Count 1, Paragraph 14.) It makes clear that Lindh's purpose was not to fight the United States but to fight the warlords of the "Northern Alliance."

To be fair to Moore, I must point out that he does provide a bibliography of sources utilized for each chapter. However, on reviewing the sources cited for the chapter containing the Spann and Walker Lindh allegations cited above one finds that nowhere do they say anything about Spann's brutal torture or Lindh's confessed passion for "killing Americans." Moore must have gotten his information elsewhere. But where? And why are these sources not listed either in footnotes or in his bibliography?

Are Moore's sources so partisan and untrustworthy that he prefers to avoid embarrassment by having them remain anonymous? Or was he just too lazy to include footnotes and source citations? Or does Moore perhaps just freely embellish to help his story along?

Clearly Moore sets low verification standards for himself in passing along information that supports the view that all who end up on the wrong side of American bullets are "terrorists" or al-Qaida members. When the U.S. made an "unfortunate mistake" (Moore's words) and killed 14 women and children near the Pakistani border, Moore states that "apparently the women were also al-Qaida" (page 363.) And how does Moore know this? He does not say. Did someone check the identification cards on the female corpses and cross-check those names against an al-Qaida membership list? Or did somebody with an interest in downplaying "collateral damage" just make this convenient fact up? Moore provides his reader with no help on such matters. He just passes along the claim as if it were established fact.

The problem, of course, is that with Robin Moore you just don't know whether you're getting fact or fiction. And that's a serious problem.

If you enjoy cowboy novels, buy this book. If you want to learn about the war in Afghanistan, look elsewhere.

Incidentally, I have written to Mr. Moore asking him to address the above concerns. I have also offered to publish his letter, should he choose to reply. For my letter to Mr. Moore, and his anticipated reply, go to http://www.freejohnwalker.net

[usa320]

it was a big hit on that camp, the reason we dont here about it is because much of the details are more than likely sealed, and the press is too busy reporting about cars that run check points getting blasted and how evil the great satan is...

:roll:

And indeed, Iraq never operated Mirage 2000's. They only operated Mirage F-1C's.

[Merik]

I just finished the book yesterday and never read anything about Mirage 2000's, unless I skipped a whole chapter or something, so I dont know where you got that from. Other than that its a really good book, I especially like the chapter with all of the excerpts from LTC Steve Russell's experiences over there.

[moughoun]

Read his book Task force dagger, maybe Tom Clancy has got some compatition in the fictional stake's, what a load of jingoistic rubbish although the bit about Geraldo Rivera was probably true :bash:

[Trigger]

From Amazon.com, a very interesting comment from a reader of "The huntfor BL"


DOES MOORE JUST MAKE STUFF UP?, January 9, 2004

Reviewer: steve baughman (see more about me) from san francisco...Incidentally, I have written to Mr. Moore asking him to address the above concerns. I have also offered to publish his letter, should he choose to reply. For my letter to Mr. Moore, and his anticipated reply, go to http://www.freejohnwalker.net
Is this a joke?
Yes, a very interesting comment -(pardon me while I spray cola out my nose)- The link at the end is priceless.
Regardless of the fact or fiction of Robin Moore's work, I think maybe you could have picked a slightly less biased person to quote. :cantbeli:

freejohnwalker.net? rofl

[mocking_loudly_died]

Whats this Jack Idema's background?
I have seen the name pop up a few times, I take it he must be ex-special forces or something along those lines.

[Trident-za]

I don't know all the details about Jack Idema, but there is a lot of controversy about him. He apparently was never truly an operator, but was an armourer (is that the right word?) for SF in Vietnam.... a lot of SF guys also claim that he tends to make stuff up to make himself important - if not the story, then his role in it. If you do a search on Socnet you will find some extremly heated threads on the guy.

[mocking_loudly_died]

I don't know all the details about Jack Idema, but there is a lot of controversy about him. He apparently was never truly an operator, but was an armourer (is that the right word?) for SF in Vietnam.... a lot of SF guys also claim that he tends to make stuff up to make himself important - if not the story, then his role in it. If you do a search on Socnet you will find some extremly heated threads on the guy.

Cheers for the info.

I picked up that Task Force Dagger book the other day at a bookshop, promptly flicked through it and I was tempted to part with my (supposedly) hard earned cash.

Futurama season 4 won out in the bid to secure my temporary happiness though.

[Mr Gently Benevolent]

Picked up Robin Moores book myself had a flick and a wee read then thought nah not worth reading bought Mac OSX Hacks published by O'Reilly money well spent. I think we will have to wait a few years before we get any decent publications about this conflict.

[MaDuce]

At least its not as bad as the horrible trash and filth put out by Micheal Moore.

[Kitsune]

I have read Moores Book "Hunt for Bin Laden" and found it shockingly dissapointing. Mindless Propaganda to a large part. No compare to his "Green Beret" classic. :(
What has happened to this guy?

[Mr Gently Benevolent]

At least its not as bad as the horrible trash and filth put out by Micheal Moore.
What was it you did not like about his books?