What do you think about European Union ?

[littlefrench]

Do you think that we have created European Union to be an other great power, against the USA ?
What do you thin about European Institutions ?
What do you think about a future European Army ?
What do you think about the integration of the news countries in Europe (Poland...) ?
.................................................................

[HELEX]

This Forum has a Poll option p-)

[AK-Lover]

I think it's great, America has been the only "superpower" in the world for long enough, the europan nations have the capability to work together to form stronger unified insitiuitions and hopefully an army so that we can "stand up" to america. My 3 cents. :D

[Romulus]

so that we can "stand up" to america.

Didn't relize we were a threat to Europe. Don't most European countries vote opposite of the US anyhow in the UN? Seems Europes been "Standing up" to the US for awhile. Jesus, I wonder why (and when) the US is such a big threat vs um let say terrorist and the like.

[AK-Lover]

Not in that sense as militarily but more in the pyschological sense in that the US has been in Europe for a long time now and that does put some political pressure against the EU and it's nations.

[AK-Lover]

And that EURO countries vote against US in Un anyway argument doesn't work with me anymore since mr. dubya went against a security council veto and invaded Iraq anyway. face it he just made america less popular in the UN.

[Yard Ape]

the europan nations have the capability to work together to form stronger unified insitiuitions and hopefully an army so that we can "stand up" to america. You understand that Canada will not be part of the EU, right?

[wholagun]

I like the EU what it stands for and where it is heading. I want Poland to get its **** together and work with not against the EU.

May 1st is comming in just over a month, this will bring huge change, for better or worse we'll see.

[Caraway]

Do you think that we have created European Union to be an other great power, against the USA ?
What do you thin about European Institutions ?
What do you think about a future European Army ?
What do you think about the integration of the news countries in Europe (Poland...) ?
.................................................................

I think that we were created to match US in fields of economics and politics. In that sense we were created as "great power". But historically EU was made to tie Germany economically to the rest of the Europe.

I'm also a citizen of the EU but I don't know much about it's institutions. There is the European Parlament to decide our politics, but thats pretty much I know about it and other institutions.

European army is a great idea, but since we have at least dozens of languages the Army would use english.....like the Army of US of A..... Anyways we will have army in a few years, I guess. After that USA does not have to clean our "back yards" anymore (like the former Yogoslavia).

Integration is good thing but we should not rush to expand to rapidly. I hope expansion does not bring the EU to it's nees in economical sense.

[Loco]

Do you think that we have created European Union to be an other great power, against the USA ?
What do you thin about European Institutions ?
What do you think about a future European Army ?
What do you think about the integration of the news countries in Europe (Poland...) ?
.................................................................
1.I think EU wasn´t created against USA, but what´s being built just now?
2.It has a Parlament that doesn´t legislate, curios. True laws are made by governments of each country jointed with others governments. So...too many things to comment now, it´s sunday and I only spending here some time.
3.Good, but where will be used this army? and When will be used?and how will be used?
4.I think it´s good this new 10 members get into EU.
5. How are old EU members? I miss this question.
6.How does behaviour former members? I miss this question.
7.Are truly compromised with EU targets former members? I miss this question.

[Lobo]

UE was born in 1951 as the Coal & Steel European Comunity. The First and the Second World War had started in Europe. And the mineral resoruces of Alsace and Silesia (Polish please correct my spelling) had a relevant role. So the point was avoiding future struggles for those resources. You had also the "Soviet menace".

Here you have an article I found in Wired magazine.

http://www.wired.com/wired/archive/11.06/euro_spc.html

Combine and Conquer

EURO SPACE: A State of Mind
By Mark Leonard

The European Union's obsession with legislation is usually taken as a sign of weakness - a foil to the pyrotechnic might of the US military machine. But take a closer look: The bureaucrats in Brussels have been busy creating a new political space that has the power to make the 21st century the European century. The EU's geographical expansion to 25 countries, which will grow to include a dozen smaller ones and maybe even Russia, is nothing compared with its increasing legal and moral reach. The 80,000 pages of laws the EU has developed since the common market was formed in 1957 - influencing everything from genetic labeling to human rights - have made Europe the world's first viral political space, spreading its authority in three innovative ways.

First, it spreads by stealth. Although the EU legislates up to half of its member states' laws, most of their trade, and many policy decisions - from agriculture to economics - it's practically invisible. Take Britain. There are no European courts, legislative chambers, or business regulations on display in London. Instead, just as a virus takes over a healthy cell, the EU operates through the shell of traditional political structures. The British House of Commons, British Law Courts, and British civil servants are still there, but they have all become covert agents of the EU. This is no accident. By creating common standards that are implemented through national institutions, Europe can take over the world without becoming a target for hostility. While every US company, embassy, and military base is a terrorist target, Europe's invisibility allows it to spread its influence without provocation. Put bluntly, even if there were people angry enough to want to fly planes into European buildings, there is no World Trade Center to target.

Second, the EU thrives on diversity. The former US Secretary of State Henry Kissinger once complained that Europe doesn't have a single telephone number. When there's a crisis, Americans don't know who to turn to as the authentic voice of opinion. This is because Europe possesses many centers of power. Even the splits between new and old, and the accidental good cop/bad cop routine played by Britain and France, can be seen as a sign of the EU's strength. The ultimate failure of diplomacy leading up to the war on Iraq shows that the EU is less powerful when it doesn't share a common vision of the world, but even so, the multi-headed nature of the union did force the US to take its case to the UN. The best way to understand how Europe functions is to look at a globally networked business like Visa. By sharing control widely, and by making it impossible for any single faction or institution to dominate, a networked business can combine its global presence with innovation and diversity to gain the kind of edge normally reserved for smaller entities. Visa, though it represents the largest single block of consumer spending power in the world ($362.4 trillion annually), is a skeletal organization with just a few thousand employees. The fact that Europe does not have one leader - but rather a network of centers of power united by common policies and goals - means that it can expand to accommodate ever-greater numbers of countries without collapsing, and continue to provide its members with the benefits of being the largest market in the world.

Third, Europe "syndicates" its legislation and values, often by threatening others with economic isolation. Many governments outside the continent have adopted Europe's regulations to get access to its market. Even US companies have been forced to follow European regulations in at least three spheres: M&A, GM foods, and data privacy. But this model of passive aggression has had its most dramatic effect in the EU's backyard. Consider some of the dangers faced by both Europe and the US: drug trafficking, large flows of migrants across hard-to-police borders, transnational criminal networks. Europe encourages political and economic reform by holding out the possibility of integration into the EU, and this strategy has had more success than the swift military interventions of the Monroe Doctrine. While the EU is deeply involved in Serbia's reconstruction and supports its desire to be "rehabilitated" as a European state, the US offers Colombia no such hope of integration through multilateral institutions or structural funds, only the temporary "assistance" of American military training missions and aid, and the raw freedom of the US market.

This new type of power means that Europe effects change from the inside out. By contrast, when the US engages other countries, it does so through the prism of geopolitics. Talks with Russia focus on nuclear weapons, NATO expansion, and civilian control of the military. Talks with Colombia look at the flow of drugs across its borders. Europeans start from the other end of the spectrum: What values underpin the state? What are its constitutional and regulatory frameworks? Turkey renounced the death penalty to further its chance of admission into the EU; Britain rescinded its ban on gays in the military; and Italy reformed its profligate economic ways to meet EU standards. Europe's obsession with legal frameworks means that it can completely transform the countries it comes into contact with, instead of just skimming the surface. The US might have changed the regime in Afghanistan, but Europe is changing all of Polish society, from its economic policies and property laws to its treatment of minorities and what gets served on the nation's tables.

The overblown rhetoric directed at the "American Empire" misses the fact that the US reach is shallow and narrow. The lonely superpower can bribe, bully, or impose its will almost anywhere in the world - but when its back is turned, its potency wanes. The strength of the EU, conversely, is broad and deep: Once sucked into its sphere of influence, countries are changed forever. Europe is a state of mind that cannot be contained by traditional boundaries.

[Operation Ivy]

Dont mind them, just hope they'll be friends with us in the future instead of "not on good terms" (dont want to use the word enemies) :D

[Romulus]

The strength of the EU, conversely, is broad and deep: Once sucked into its sphere of influence, countries are changed forever.

Funny, the US didn't change Japan forever?

[Lt-Col A. Tack]

It should be remembered that the EU wouldn't have been possible (at least not yet) if it hadn't been for strong military, economic, and political support by the United States for West Germany against the Soviet Union.

It has been the policy of every US administration to support Germany's greater integration into the european community.

Another grandiose policy of misplaced generosity that has bitten us on the backside.

It is sobering to think that Poland, which received vitually no support from the US before, during, or after the Cold War is a more steadfast ally of the US than Germany, which has received uncounted billions in reconstruction aid (after the war) and military patronage (during the Cold War and today)

[HELEX]

@Lt-Col A. Tack


It is sobering to think that Poland, which received vitually no support from the US before, during, or after the Cold War is a more steadfast ally of the US than Germany, which has received uncounted billions in reconstruction aid (after the war) and military patronage (during the Cold War and today)

Where do you find this Bull****? Germany received 1 Billion and France 11 according to the Marshall Plan! We Paid that back 1000 times! Germany was rebuilt with our own Hands and no further help. Ever hear of the german economy Wonder in the 60's? No? Buy a Book you Moron.

Just show me a source :lol:

[budanski]

EU to rival the US? rofl

They can't even match up militarily. The Europeans will never give up enough social benefits to free up enough loot to build such a military.

It's not just tanks and soldiers they lack. Germany has no aircraft carrier and the French have only one and we learned what a great success that is. How many do we have? Over 10 for sure. They would also have to duplicate our nuclear arsenal. Just think about how many fuelers (air to air) and transport planes they would need to build. Think about the strategic bombers and stealth bombers they don't have. The submarines. The cargo ships to transport their tanks and stuff. We're talking lots of money here. They can sit and compare Eurofighter vs. Raptor all they want. Raptor is just an integral component within a "package" with the overlapping technology that supports it that they lack.

Over 50% of the budget of the EU goes to farm subsidies. There are no private universities in Germany. In the UK health care is provided for everyone and they are constantly needing to throw more money at it. People all over Europe are going to be retiring and getting cushy pensions from the State. Their population is declining. The workforce works well under 40 hours a week. The tax on fuel is absolutely astoundingly high. There's no way they can ever afford to build the type of military they would need to become a rival to us. With more countries coming into the fold soon, it'll be a bigger burden to an already stagnant economy. Where would they get the money?

[Dalleer]

Do you think that we have created European Union to be an other great power, against the USA ?

Well, I'm sure that the people that got this going on in the first place intend to create a "great power" of some sort. However it would be dumb to think that the EU is something created to counter the US as a "new superpower" since we can co-exist peacefully as well.


What do you think about a future European Army ?

I think that if the EU intends to transform itself further to a more "central government over Europe"-type of a system then a military force is needed since it will bring the much needed "unity of Europe"-picture to the other nations of the world.

This "armed force" would of course be a 100 % non-conscript organization that could be somehow reinforced from individual countries' militaries or something.

If the EU indeed plans to become a formidable power in the future, and show the world that it can't be pushed around then it needs a military force.

Of course the other option would be to make a small professional "core" of troops from the EU countries and also keep the individual countries' armed forces in place. But in case of a conflict all of the EU countries would be responsible for sending their own troops to the area.

So much possibilities...


What do you think about the integration of the news countries in Europe (Poland...) ?

Personally I happen to think that the amount of members the EU now has is about as much as we should be "taking" into it's ranks. The newest members are of course alot different from the original ones, but I'm sure that in time some of them will prove to be valuable partners and allies.


What do you thin about European Institutions ?

Well, at this time I have very little of an opinion about them since alot of them are currently being just formed.

[Romulus]

Well, I'm sure that the people that got this going on in the first place intend to create a "great power" of some sort. However it would be dumb to think that the EU is something created to counter the US as a "new superpower" since we can co-exist peacefully as well.


Agreed.

[Yard Ape]

It is sobering to think that Poland, which received vitually no support from the US before, during, or after the Cold War is a more steadfast ally of the US than GermanyWhy would the US have supported Poland through the Cold War? It may as well have given money straight to Moscow.

Before the cold war? Would that have been when it was occupied by Nazis, or before the war when the US tried to avoid European politics at all costs?

[Elmo]

It should be remembered that the EU wouldn't have been possible (at least not yet) if it hadn't been for strong military, economic, and political support by the United States for West Germany against the Soviet Union.

It has been the policy of every US administration to support Germany's greater integration into the european community.

Another grandiose policy of misplaced generosity that has bitten us on the backside.

It is sobering to think that Poland, which received vitually no support from the US before, during, or after the Cold War is a more steadfast ally of the US than Germany, which has received uncounted billions in reconstruction aid (after the war) and military patronage (during the Cold War and today)

Well well. It wasn't pure generosity (whatever the help after the war was) but own interests economically and geopolitically.

Besides, old deeds do not justify present day mistakes. If a democratically elected German government refuses to join in a US led aggression, there is nothing to whine about. Germany owes nothing to USA when it comes to Iraq.

'Patronage'....well, weird to see GI's in a german movie theater shouting "how many wars do we have to win to get it in English?!!" when the Engish version of LOTR starts out in German...

hope the US military pays a lot for their bases.

[Kitsune]

Lt Col God knows who.

The Marshall Plan was a help, thats true. But it did not consist of "countless" billions, it did not build up Germany (that was done by Germans.

In contrast to your believe West Germany had a huge army from 1956 on...in the late 80ties for example we spent 4.5 % of our GDP for defense, had an army of 550.000 soldiers (inflatable to more than one million), more than 5000 main battle tanks. This army was the largest and most powerful of Eruope, far larger than American military personnel stationed in Germany. And in contrast to the army of a normal nation this army was not for fighting for our interests as it suited us but for one purpose only: To defend Western Europe against the Soviets. And had the Soviets attacked, this German Army would have come instantly under the command of SACEUR (Supreme Allied Commander - EURope), who was ALWAYS an American general. In other words this American would have had armed forces under his disposal, in which GERMANs were more numerous than soldiers fromm any other nation INCLUDING the US.
And to give YOUR general that manpower, WE Germans had conscription of 18 months many years AFTER you or the British had switched to a professional army.

As for not standing at your side, we are, more than you deserve. Our soldiers are in Afghanistan to support the American scam known as the "Karsai regime", we help you in Africa, on the Sea, in the fight against terror, whatever you want.
Only your mendacious "disarmament" of Iraq was not supported by us. And that was as it should be.

[wholagun]

Guys don't bring Poland into this, there are many Poles that immigrated to US for work during the 80s and early 90s, thus Polish government has to have special relationship with the US, we have between 7-10 million Poles in US

This is about the EU as a whole, not just one state.

What makes the EU unique to say NAFTA or FTAA is that EU develops its poorest members, FTAA will not do this, the poor will remain poor and the rich, rich.

Eventually the 10 new members will have a greater sense of Europeanism, its only been 14 years, the 15 have a hell of alot more time to develop thier European identity and loyality. Thus the EU is still work in progress.

[AROUETLJ]

Budanski is one example of the kind of militarist gun-toting moron who will never understand the European Union, because it represents a level of civilisation which he cannot reach.

[budanski]

Budanski is one example of the kind of militarist gun-toting moron who will never understand the European Union, because it represents a level of civilisation which he cannot reach.

Ah yes the civilisation that was the whole reason the US was created in the first place. :roll:

[fantassin]

No, you just don't get it, the EU hasn't got 10 aircraft carriers so it doesn't exist...welcome to Budanski's world of everything related toi the EU in general and France in particular is SO bad....

:roll:

[budanski]

No, you just don't get it, the EU hasn't got 10 aircraft carriers so it doesn't exist...welcome to Budanski's world of everything related toi the EU in general and France in particular is SO bad....

:roll:

You obviously missed the point.

[aeternum]

There are no private universities in Germany.

Pardon? There are several hundrets of private universities in germany. Just 3 of them:

http://www.whu.edu/content/ger/
http://www.simt.de/
http://www.law-school.de/

[budanski]

There are no private universities in Germany.

Pardon? There are several hundrets of private universities in germany. Just 3 of them:

http://www.whu.edu/content/ger/
http://www.simt.de/
http://www.law-school.de/


DW (http://www.campus-germany.de/english/1.38.457.html)
"There are currently more than 50 officially recognized private colleges and universities. They are financed and maintained in different ways. Support comes partly from the private sector or foundations, and partly through additional funds from the state."

If you want to get technical, fully capitalistic ;) private universities then.

[Commander Cool]

The EU's threat is not the US, but the large number of non-Europeans who immigrate there by the hundreds of thousands every year, whose values and beliefs are drastically different from the Europeans'. Unless the Europeans wise up and severely limit immigration from outside Europe, Europe as we know it will cease to exist.

[wholagun]

The EU's threat is not the US, but the large number of non-Europeans who immigrate there by the hundreds of thousands every year, whose values and beliefs are drastically different from the Europeans'. Unless the Europeans wise up and severely limit immigration from outside Europe, Europe as we know it will cease to exist.

what about Canada? Will Canadians cease to exists as well?

[Lt-Col A. Tack]

It is sobering to think that Poland, which received vitually no support from the US before, during, or after the Cold War is a more steadfast ally of the US than GermanyWhy would the US have supported Poland through the Cold War? It may as well have given money straight to Moscow.

Before the cold war? Would that have been when it was occupied by Nazis, or before the war when the US tried to avoid European politics at all costs?

The point I was making is that current Poland's support was based on gratitude and shared values. Not because we had ever supported them financially.

[SeanAshi]

Will Canadians cease to exists as well?We will annex Canada and make you all Americans ;)

[Caraway]

@Lt-Col A. Tack


It is sobering to think that Poland, which received vitually no support from the US before, during, or after the Cold War is a more steadfast ally of the US than Germany, which has received uncounted billions in reconstruction aid (after the war) and military patronage (during the Cold War and today)

Where do you find this Bull****? Germany received 1 Billion and France 11 according to the Marshall Plan! We Paid that back 1000 times! Germany was rebuilt with our own Hands and no further help. Ever hear of the german economy Wonder in the 60's? No? Buy a Book you Moron.

Just show me a source :lol:


If anyone is interested Finland refused Marshall-AID and everything in fear of USSR. We had to build our economy from ZERO! We had to pay world's largest war compensations to USSR and we did! Today Finland is the most competitive economy, the least corrupted and has the best education in the world!
Nokia is a Finnish company, wankers!!!

[Ichhabe]

budanski rants again:


EU to rival the US? rofl

Can't see anywhere that the EU want to rival the US in the way you seem to hope. If you know more than me, feel free to show me that information.


They can't even match up militarily.

That is so true. And that is going to stay true for the next hundred years, maybe.
But do not be so comfortable in you Power Commando Chair 3000. Nothing last forever. If so, we all may have been spoken Latin today, or Greek.


The Europeans will never give up enough social benefits to free up enough loot to build such a military.

Why should we? I actually like it as it is, almost. But nothing is perfect.


Germany has no aircraft carrier and the French have only one and we learned what a great success that is. How many do we have? Over 10 for sure.

You sure do like to have these ***** measurment contests. What about measuring balls? I can send my wife over. She got more balls than you. Cheeez.


They would also have to duplicate our nuclear arsenal.

Why the hell should we spend money on that ****. Ain't it enough morons with nuke capasity in the world? Do you really want to make more?? The world have more nukes than what it can handle.


Just think about how many fuelers (air to air) and transport planes they would need to build. Think about the strategic bombers and stealth bombers they don't have. The submarines.

Shait! All that cost a lot of money. Money that I rather spend on welfare, education and health.


The cargo ships to transport their tanks and stuff.

Now, there we agree. Getting a fleet like the C 17 would be awsome. We actually need them.


They can sit and compare Eurofighter vs. Raptor all they want. Raptor is just an integral component within a "package" with the overlapping technology that supports it that they lack.

Don't know so much about jet fighters and stuff. But you probably right. You just keep ramming money down in to the pockets of Boeing, Mc DonaldDouglas and those guys that lure you in to the "need" of better, faster and way more expensive.


Over 50% of the budget of the EU goes to farm subsidies.

Farmers need money too. ;)


In the UK health care is provided for everyone and they are constantly needing to throw more money at it.

We try to take care of the whole spectre of people in Europe. And the rich people can buy better health care if they want too.


People all over Europe are going to be retiring and getting cushy pensions from the State.

Hell yeah! We payed our taxes because of that. We have earned it.


Their population is declining.

Well, **** happens. Naybe we should shag more? I don't know.


The workforce works well under 40 hours a week.

Well, the out house haven't caught fire yet. What do you think would be hours well spent at work?


The tax on fuel is absolutely astoundingly high.

Does it bother you, and if so; why?
Thinking of driving your car over the Atlantic?


There's no way they can ever afford to build the type of military they would need to become a rival to us.

Europe don't want a military force to become a rival to the USA. What we want to build up, is a force that can protect ourselves, and at the same time giving support to the USA.


With more countries coming into the fold soon, it'll be a bigger burden to an already stagnant economy. Where would they get the money?

Maybe from the lottery?


From all your posts reaching over 2000. Have you ever written any positive things about Europe at all? All I see is you sour negative face all over. Every bad news from Europe is a gold nugget to you. I cannot understand why. Do you?

[budanski]

Ichhabe chirps
budanski rants again:


EU to rival the US? rofl

Can't see anywhere that the EU want to rival the US in the way you seem to hope. If you know more than me, feel free to show me that information.

Thats odd. I had that impression when responding to these.


Do you think that we have created European Union to be an other great power, against the USA ?

I think it's great, America has been the only "superpower" in the world for long enough, the europan nations have the capability to work together to form stronger unified insitiuitions and hopefully an army so that we can "stand up" to america. My 3 cents. :D

Ichhabe chirps


They can't even match up militarily.

That is so true. And that is going to stay true for the next hundred years, maybe.
But do not be so comfortable in you Power Commando Chair 3000. Nothing last forever. If so, we all may have been spoken Latin today, or Greek.
Carpe Diem p-)

[Ichhabe]

Thats odd. I had that impression when responding to these.


[quote=AK-Lover]I think it's great, America has been the only "superpower" in the world for long enough, the europan nations have the capability to work together to form stronger unified insitiuitions and hopefully an army so that we can "stand up" to america. My 3 cents. :D

Please don't say that you are taking the words of a boy living in Canada, and still is amazed and exploring his first hard ons???

If so, good luck.

[Lt-Col A. Tack]

Where do you find this Bull****? Germany received 1 Billion and France 11 according to the Marshall Plan! We Paid that back 1000 times! Germany was rebuilt with our own Hands and no further help. Ever hear of the german economy Wonder in the 60's? No? Buy a Book you Moron.

Just show me a source

Such a vicious ad hominem comment. Tisk, Tisk.

"Germany was rebuilt with our own Hands" True enough, but not with your own money.
After the war, I don't think Germany had a currency with which they could have purchased much of anything. Also, I bet more than a few contractors from the allied powers were present.

"We Paid that back 1000 times!" Did the US issue bonds or something?

Sure it was a great economy in the 60's. Because it wasn't working on five year plans! Starting in 1948 with the Berlin Airlift and continuing through the fall of the Berlin Wall, the US supported the West German government politically and militarily.

[budanski]

From all your posts reaching over 2000. Have you ever written any positive things about Europe at all? All I see is you sour negative face all over. Every bad news from Europe is a gold nugget to you. I cannot understand why. Do you?

Lets see, I've spent a few summers in Europe, actually went there on my honeymoon awhile back. Miles Teg, Argyll, Luxenbourger and Uncle Cho are pretty cool. Modern Talking and CC Catch Rocks.! Ah, the 80s.

[budanski]

No, you just don't get it, the EU hasn't got 10 aircraft carriers so it doesn't exist...welcome to Budanski's world of everything related toi the EU in general and France in particular is SO bad....

:roll:

You remind me of the ugly girls who don't get dates bitching about the pretty girls who do. They try to convince themselves that no makeup and comfort in their portly bodies should make them attractive, and the boys who "don't get it" are just stupid and immature. Add to the lack of good looks, a lack of personal hygiene and a snotty attitude.

[Lt-Col A. Tack]

Well well. It wasn't pure generosity (whatever the help after the war was) but own interests economically and geopolitically.

Very true. It is my belief that the strategy that keeping a portion of the continent out of the hands of the communists was meant to keep any conventional confrontation in Europe. I would call that englightened self-interest. But you must admit, many benefits did accrue to the Germans.




Besides, old deeds do not justify present day mistakes. If a democratically elected German government refuses to join in a US led aggression, there is nothing to whine about. Germany owes nothing to USA when it comes to Iraq.

Germany did not support the way we chose to disarm Iraq. Fine. However, the war is over. We are now in a phase of stabilization, reconstruction, and democritization. Surely Germany supports these ideas in principle, and if the Bundeswehr were funded at adequate levels, its participation would at least be thinkable.

Great Britain was able to send tens of thousands of troops to Iraq. Germany, with the third largest economy in the world, expends great effort to support a few thousand in any one place. Also, I believe Germany is supposed to buy some A-400Ms. But will unlikely be able to afford the number it's required to purchase and will pay penalties. I think I could find some info asked.

A link observed recently while trolling DW-WORLD.DE
http://www.dw-world.com/english/0,3367,1432_A_1093781_1_A,00.html





'Patronage'....well, weird to see GI's in a german movie theater shouting "how many wars do we have to win to get it in English?!!" when the Engish version of LOTR starts out in German...

Boorish behavior to be sure. I myself prefer to hear movies with their original dialogue. BTW, I own a copy of RUN LOLA RUN. (LOLA REINT?)Many Japanese titles as well. As long as there's subtitles, I have no problem. :D




hope the US military pays a lot for their bases.
Considering we have to buy power, water, and sanitation services.

http://www.dw-world.com/english/0,3367,1430_A_1152253_1_A,00.html

A fine website with lots of great articles. I read the content often. FAZ as well.

I bear no one any ill will. But I just don't think the actions of my country are being fairly represented.

[Tributal]

Do you think that we have created European Union to be an other great power, against the USA?No, the EU was created to stabilize the domestic economies in Europe as to prevent any more European wars (civil wars can't be prevented this way, so the collapse of Yugoslavia doesn't count.) If you can tie neighbouring economies to each other then they are much less likely to wage war on each other - it would cost them more to go to war than to do business.

The fact that it (the E.U) has decided to try to some sort of powerplay against the U.S. and Asia is just an unfortunate side-effect (but this is common practice on the international market anyway, so there's no reason lamenting it in this thread.)



What do you thin about European Institutions?Please be more specific.



What do you think about a future European Army?I can see both pros and cons. A pro would be that when deployed it would make the EU stand look more uniform. A con would be that it's hard getting each and every country on board for a deployment - Iraq is a good current example where several countries have refused to deploy troops. Also, who should control this army?



What do you think about the integration of the news countries in Europe (Poland...) ?Don't know what the minimum requirements are for a country to gain entry into the EU, but if Poland et al can carry their own I'm all for it. However, I think it's funny that the UK several of the founding countries have made statements along the lines of wanting to get out of the EU.

That said I personally think it's BS that some countries have to lower their environmental standards because they're members of the E.U. Countries that used to have very high standards have been forced (in the name of the free market) to lower their standards so that hazardous products used in other countries have a shot at the market in the new member countries. I also remember how France, Germany, and the UK looked forward to Sweden becoming a member so that these nations could store their nuclear waste in the Swedish mountains (the Swedish mountain chains up north have the highest density and the lowest risk of earthquakes of any mountain chain in Europe - this makes them perfect for storing nuclear waste.)

I think Sweden should get the hell out of the EU (I voted no back in the 90's when there was an election on whether we should join or not.)

[Tributal]

Great Britain was able to send tens of thousands of troops to Iraq.Well, it would have been weird if Blair hadn't sent a ****load of troops to Iraq given his adament support for the invasion in the first place. ;)

[Sergeant]

Caraway, yes but at what cost? One of the most competitive country?I don't think so. That's just a myth to keep the people from realizing how low salaries they have and how high the taxes are to keep up the system.

It's like the other myth, where we have one of the best health care systems and public transportation rofl rofl rofl

[SeanAshi]

See what the EU does to children-->http://www.dallasdancemusic.com/photos/data/500/6243shake.gif

[Lt-Col A. Tack]

Great Britain was able to send tens of thousands of troops to Iraq.Well, it would have been weird if Blair hadn't sent a ****load of troops to Iraq given his adament support for the invasion in the first place. ;)

My point was that the UK has invested appropriately in mobility, and it's defense expenditures are (I think) higher as a percentage of its GDP than possibly even the US. I could check on this, if asked.

[Romulus]

See what the EU does to children-->

Sorry it's a bit off topic, but jesus aged christ that was funny. Brought a tear to my eye. rofl

[wholagun]

Will Canadians cease to exists as well?We will annex Canada and make you all Americans ;)

HHMM yeah.....right... NO!!!!!!!

You Yanks would freeze half way to Ottawa. I never, ever, under any circumstances want American identity forced upon me.

[Lt-Col A. Tack]

Another opinion I'd like to offer.

The EU looks like a Hydra. A confederation of states in which each country still retains a high degree of independence. Just look to our history to see how the Confederate States of America were able to make that work.

Maybe the federalism is stronger that I'm assuming it is.

[Lt-Col A. Tack]

We had to pay world's largest war compensations to USSR and we did

Seriously? Why so. Some kind of row over territory?

[Lt-Col A. Tack]

We had to pay world's largest war compensations to USSR and we did

Nazis install a fascist regime and they fought against the Russians?

[SeanAshi]

The Nazis caught Stalin with his pants down.

[Lt-Col A. Tack]

As for not standing at your side, we are, more than you deserve. Our soldiers are in Afghanistan to support the American scam known as the "Karsai regime", we help you in Africa, on the Sea, in the fight against terror, whatever you want.
Only your mendacious "disarmament" of Iraq was not supported by us. And that was as it should be.

As far as I know, the Karzai regime was the only available option after the fall of the Taliban. His administration is transitional and the Afghans have agreed on a new constitution.
And weren't many of those meetings held in Germany? I don't remember the EU suggesting anyone better.

The US troops in Germany during the Cold War were the "tip of the spear" Any conflict would have necessitated an immediate mobilization.
And as to your comments about the strength of the German Army. The information you listed spoke in the past tense. Doesn't Germany currently spend less than 2% of GDP?

[Tributal]

Great Britain was able to send tens of thousands of troops to Iraq.Well, it would have been weird if Blair hadn't sent a ****load of troops to Iraq given his adament support for the invasion in the first place. ;)My point was that the UK has invested appropriately in mobility, and it's defense expenditures are (I think) higher as a percentage of its GDP than possibly even the US. I could check on this, if asked.Gotcha; and no, I won't ask. ;)

[M1A2U2]

And that EURO countries vote against US in Un anyway argument doesn't work with me anymore since mr. dubya went against a security council veto and invaded Iraq anyway. face it he just made america less popular in the UN.

Actually mr. "dubya" did not go against a security council veto at all. Instead the security council voted to give the coalition use of force on saddam if he did not cooperate with hans blix, which hanx blix reported he did not. In UN security council resolution 1441, Which was passed 15 to 0, article 13 states:

"13. Recalls, in that context, that the Council has repeatedly warned Iraq that it will face serious consequences as a result of its continued violations of its obligations;"

This was not vetoed and the deicision to invade iraq was never vetoed nor was it even put before the council other than in 1441.
Your comment above just shows how uneducated people like you are on the war with Iraq. If you dont know that facts then please shut your mouth.

Not a sermon...just a thought

[Kitsune]

Exactly:
This resolution 1441 only threatened with "serious conseuquences", which no one (not even the US back then), thought to include war.
The next resolution was about to allow for war more explicitly...but after the Bush government found out that France, Russia and most likely China would VETOe it, they never brought it before the council. Later on, the Americans claimed, that the "serious consequences" threatened with in the first resolution were probably enough (war is a serious consequence, isn't it?)
Funny thing is that, according to what we know today, Saddam did fully cooperate with Hans Blix and his team (they could go to any place, without allowance from the Iraqi side, any time and did that on numerous occasions. Normally NO nation, that claims to be sovereign would let you do that). Only that he stated that he had no WMD programs running anymore, but the US government claimed , that they had " a mountain of undeniable evidence" to the contrary, which was...untrue. Or a lie, so to speak. Since Saddam could not prove that he had none (and how could he, ever?) the US and the "Coalition of the Willing" set out to "disarm" him.
Not that one should be sad about Saddam. He ruled through force and was downed through force - poetic justice. Thats the one good thing.
But the mendacious behaviour of the US in this matter, thats disturbing. More worthy of a dictatorship like the Soviet Union. Anyone who did NOT support it should feel proud about it.

[citizen-k]

I think it's great, America has been the only "superpower" in the world for long enough, the europan nations have the capability to work together to form stronger unified insitiuitions and hopefully an army so that we can "stand up" to america. My 3 cents. :D

I think the world had enough of European super powers for the next 1000 years... ;)

Its a good economic idea though, too bad the EU is not paying more attention on that.

[GrimmyRX]

Will Canadians cease to exists as well?We will annex Canada and make you all Americans ;)

HHMM yeah.....right... NO!!!!!!!

You Yanks would freeze half way to Ottawa. I never, ever, under any circumstances want American identity forced upon me.

Bro! :hug: woot

[stephane from Paris]

The UE is just mainly a business affair!!!!!!!!!!!
Making UE is better to make business, is better to have a win/win relation with US!!!
Making UE could help England/Germany/France to find workers which aren't from a too much different origin!

The rest is just bull ****!

BTW i prefer spend 8 euros for socials and 2 for military equipments than 2 for socials.
Even if some people use too much our social programs, i'm proud to live in a country where you don't need to be a son of richs to go to school or to have access to medics! and it's the same in most of UE countries!

[Uncle Chô]

French voters dump Chirac party

It was a night for celebration for the left.

President Jacques Chirac's party has been humiliated yesterday in French regional polls, amid speculation that PM Jean-Pierre Raffarin could be sacked.

The socialists and their allies won 50% of the second-round votes, leaving Mr Chirac's centre-right governing UMP party trailing on 36.9%.

The socialists held eight councils and grabbed another 12 from the UMP.

Voters are thought to be angry at high unemployment, a stagnant economy and unpopular public sector reforms.

The centre-right has won only Alsace so far, with the results from Corsica still to come.

All change

The election was seen as a mid-term test of opinion on the Chirac government.

Mr Raffarin said lessons had to be learnt by the government, but "reforms must be continued, very simply because they are necessary".

The first round last Sunday saw the UMP lose heavily to the socialists and their communist and green allies.

Socialist party leader Francois Hollande says voters have expressed their rejection of both Mr Raffarin's government and Mr Chirac.

Our correspondent says the result is expected to lead to a major cabinet reshuffle, with Mr Raffarin tipped as the first to lose his job.

One of the high-profile casualties already claimed by the poll is former President Valery Giscard d'Estaing, who lost the presidency of the Auvergne region to a socialist.

The far-right National Front confirmed its position as the country's third political force, with nearly 13%.

Options

At least 60% of the voters in France said they remained determined to use these elections to send a strong message of discontent to the government.

"I feel like France's public sector is being sabotaged," said Elsa Quinette, in Paris.

"What the government is doing is so serious, I just had to speak out."

Others said they wanted the government to stay.

Mr Chirac has spent the past week weighing up his options.

He will have to choose whether to keep Mr Raffarin in his post and use him to push through the next round of reforms - this time to public healthcare - or whether to appoint a new prime minister.

The problem with that is that the most obvious candidate, France's popular Interior Minister Nicholas Sarkozy, is known to want Mr Chirac's job, correspondents say.

So the president may prefer to keep on his unpopular but loyal prime minister to plough ahead with the next round of difficult reforms, despite voters' discontent.

:| My personal interpretations of the results :

http://perso.wanadoo.fr/cfecgc-peugeot-mulhouse/images/images_tracts/autruche.jpg

[FinnishMF]

Little boys with their flame wars :bash:

[scoone]

Do you think that we have created European Union to be an other great power, against the USA ? No, absolutely no , the basic idea is to stand together, not to face anyone.
What do you thin about European Institutions ? They are working although there's a lot of work left to do.
What do you think about a future European Army ? Why not, remember that we already have the eurocorps and other sort of combined units.So it's just one step beyond.
What do you think about the integration of the news countries in Europe (Poland...) ? They are all wellcome.

[army cadet_ngcsu]

The Germans and the French think so...

[WARPIG]

Only the weak minded need to think in "us vs them" terms. Why is it assumed that every change, development, or creation that stems outside the US is in some sort of defiance or opposition to the "Great Super Power?" Our status as the only true Super Power in the world is because the rest died off. The most powerful forces in history were defeated. British Empire, Nazi Germany, the USSR.. all tried to take up real estate at the cost of the people there. The US .. a country of mostly Eurpopean immigrants who took this very country from Native Americans.. has only survived because we not only had a hand at defeating some of those superpowers, but because we aren't looking to annex more property. The closest anyone can argue is when the whole "blood for oil" BS starts up. If that were true, I wouldn't be going to the Shell station for my weekly wallet raping.
The US super power is a threat only because we hold this position alone. Our military might is what makes people uneasy, the US stereotype is what most people base their opinions of Americans, and our cowboy President. So, to make things easier for the ignorant to understand, you have to draw a line in the sand and put the US on one side with everyone else on the other.

[WARPIG]

Oh, he heh.. in response to the thread topic... I am quite pleased to see the EU becoming successful. It has the potential to a great measure of good but also to really screw things up. The EU founding powers are in the habit of leveraging their members. Could easily backfire. As much as I obviously dislike the EU vs US stupidity, it doesn't mean that the powers that be don't play to it. The competition betweenthe EU and US is going to be there for sure, I just hope it is kept in perspective.
Military benefits could be gained from a true union. I don't really think the EU is capable of that kind of union right now though.

[Caraway]

Caraway, yes but at what cost? One of the most competitive country?I don't think so. That's just a myth to keep the people from realizing how low salaries they have and how high the taxes are to keep up the system.

It's like the other myth, where we have one of the best health care systems and public transportation rofl rofl rofl

Yes when it comes to economics we are the most competitive country in the world, USA is number 2. Ever read the news papers? The reason why we are is due to good education, low salaries and good public sector (high taxes). Health care section really sucks though (USA ranks higher) but public transportation is very good. Get your "facts" straight. :bash:

[M1A2U2]

Exactly:
This resolution 1441 only threatened with "serious conseuquences", which no one (not even the US back then), thought to include war.
The next resolution was about to allow for war more explicitly...but after the Bush government found out that France, Russia and most likely China would VETOe it, they never brought it before the council. Later on, the Americans claimed, that the "serious consequences" threatened with in the first resolution were probably enough (war is a serious consequence, isn't it?)
Funny thing is that, according to what we know today, Saddam did fully cooperate with Hans Blix and his team (they could go to any place, without allowance from the Iraqi side, any time and did that on numerous occasions. Normally NO nation, that claims to be sovereign would let you do that). Only that he stated that he had no WMD programs running anymore, but the US government claimed , that they had " a mountain of undeniable evidence" to the contrary, which was...untrue. Or a lie, so to speak. Since Saddam could not prove that he had none (and how could he, ever?) the US and the "Coalition of the Willing" set out to "disarm" him.
Not that one should be sad about Saddam. He ruled through force and was downed through force - poetic justice. Thats the one good thing.
But the mendacious behaviour of the US in this matter, thats disturbing. More worthy of a dictatorship like the Soviet Union. Anyone who did NOT support it should feel proud about it.

sorry but if you read blix's primary report after 1441 he expilcitly says, "saddam hussein has failed to cooperate with me team of inspectors." so you are dead wrong in that sense. Secondly, "serious consequneces is the UN term for war. everyone knew that. what else woud it mean? another stupid ass resolution to add to the list of 17. Saddam failed to comply with 1441 evetyone knows that. It was not only US intelligence that said saddam had WMDs. It was actually every country who had eyes to see him gass his own people. All he had to do was produce evidence that he had detroyed the stockpiles the UN found but didnt have a chance to destroy in 98. He didnt do that. so once again you are running your mouth on a topic that you are wrong on. thanks