M1A1 killed in Iraq, any idea which missile?

[HELEX]

Maybe this is old and was discussed here...

Thoughts?

http://www.webmutants.com/strategypage/missile_mystery1.jpg
The U.S. Army is not saying much about the "mystery projectile" that went through the side skirts and side armor of an M-1A1 tank last August 28th. Whatever it was just barely missed the tanks gunner (it went through the back of his seat and grazed part of his flak jacket) and put a pencil size hole nearly 50mm deep into the four inch thick armor on the other side of the tank. The damage may have been done by a projectile, not a shaped charge (which uses a jet of super-hot plasma to burn a hole in armor and put a quantity of plasma and molten metal inside the tank.) No known RPG would do that kind of damage. But some Western anti-tank rockets generate a different kind of plasma jet that might create the kind of damage done. A U.S. 25mm armor piercing shell (fired from the gun mounted on the M-2 Bradley armored vehicle) uses a small penetrator, but that penetrator is of depleted uranium, which burns like a flare once it is inside its target. One major unknown is the large number of portable anti-tank weapons (especially Russian and Chinese models) that have not been tested against the M-1 tank. It's not unusual for new weapons to have unpredictable effects once they are first used in combat. Until the army releases more information, if they have any, the mystery lingers.
http://www.webmutants.com/strategypage/missile_mystery2.jpg
The red circle in the photo above marks where the side armor of the M1A1 tank was penetrated.
http://www.webmutants.com/strategypage/missile_mystery3.jpg
A close-up view of the penetration of the side armor (in the turret well).
http://www.webmutants.com/strategypage/missile_mystery3a.jpg
Whatever penetrated the hull, continued inside the tank, going through a hose behind the gunners seat.
http://www.webmutants.com/strategypage/missile_mystery4.jpg
The projectile continued through the back of the gunners seat. The gunner was in the seat at the time and his flak jacket was damaged, and he reported that it felt like someone had hit him in the back with a hammer.
http://www.webmutants.com/strategypage/missile_mystery4a.jpg
The mystery projectile continued under the breech of the main gun and damaged a safety guard.
http://www.webmutants.com/strategypage/missile_mystery5.jpg
The mystery projectile then came out the other side of the safety guard.
http://www.webmutants.com/strategypage/missile_mystery6.jpg
The mystery projectile then went through the turret networks box.
http://www.webmutants.com/strategypage/missile_mystery7.jpg
The mystery projectile round then went through the breaker panel. The mystery projectile (or stream of hot plasma) finally hit the opposite side of the tank, making a hole some 45mm deep.

It is said that the PG-7VR is responsible for this:

http://www.webmutants.com/strategypage/rpg7.jpg

[Guttorm]

Yes, this has been discussed before. :)

[HELEX]

And was there any solution? :oops:

[FinnishMF]

And was there any solution? :oops:
No :|

[hist2004]

These two links discuss the Abrams tank in Iraq and offer a couple of
theories:

http://www.janes.com/defence/land_forces/news/jdw/jdw030620_1_n.shtml

http://web.naplesnews.com/03/04/naples/d921412a.htm

Regards & Thanks,
Hist2004

[Guttorm]

The us military, I belive, concluded that it was the kind of RPG presented in the first post.

[haze99]

How about a 14.5mm round like the old PTRS-41 (anti-tank rifle) fired?

Or a locally produced, anti-tank rifle that fires a ZU-23, 23mm shells?

[AK-Lover]

AWESOME!

[George W. Bush]

AWESOME!

What is?

[George W. Bush]

Also, I hope you're banned soon. You're either 12 years old or a complete moron.

[Sayeret]

The Bush administration is furious that Iraq has recently obtained Russian military equipment that could cripple the Army's M-1 Abrams supertank or destroy low-flying helicopters in spite of a United Nations arms embargo imposed in 1991.

Why are they calling the M1, supertank?

[George W. Bush]

You'll have to ask Janes'.

[Kenshin]

The Bush administration is furious that Iraq has recently obtained Russian military equipment that could cripple the Army's M-1 Abrams supertank or destroy low-flying helicopters in spite of a United Nations arms embargo imposed in 1991.

Why are they calling the M1, supertank?

Oprn Ivy is the Tank customer support here. *paging oprn ivy*

[Midav]

Personally, this shouldn't be much of a suprise.

The side skirt is not the most heavily defended area.

Typical of any tank.

Now, had it been the front plating.....

[ALBANIAN]

It's known the russians and serbians sold to iraq weapons, passive radars and night vision devices.

[Kingpin]

It's known the russians and serbians sold to iraq weapons, passive radars and night vision devices.

He he.
1. That wasn't proved. Night vision goggles you can buy in any specialized shop BTW.
2. Albanians didn't sold anything because they do not producing anything except prostitutes, mojahedeens and drugs.

[Yard Ape]

How about you two not pollute this thread with your hate war.

[Kingpin]

How about you two not pollute this thread with your hate war.

Good idea. I'm just returning fire :)

[ALBANIAN]

It's known the russians and serbians sold to iraq weapons, passive radars and night vision devices.

He he.
1. That wasn't proved. Night vision goggles you can buy in any specialized shop BTW.
2. Albanians didn't sold anything because they do not producing anything except prostitutes, mojahedeens and drugs.

Drugs? Prostitutes? RUSSIAN! STOP!


http://www.theage.com.au/articles/2003/03/24/1048354517434.html

Russia sold sensitive equipment to Iraq
March 24 2003





The US State Department protested that Russian companies sold sensitive military equipment to Iraq in the run-up to US-led war against Saddam Hussein's regime.

One Russian firm is helping the Iraqi military deploy electronic jamming equipment against US planes and bombs, while two other Russian firms have sold anti-tank missiles and thousands of night-vision goggles in violation of United Nations sanctions, The Washington Post reported in Sunday editions.

The State Department today said it had raised the issue with senior levels of the Russian government a number of times, particularly over the past two weeks because the equipment could pose a direct threat to coalition forces. Moscow's response has been unsatisfactory, the State Department said.

The Post identified two of the firms as KBP Tula and Aviaconversiya, a Moscow-based company, saying that KBP supplied antitank guided missiles and Aviaconversiya provided the jamming devices.

Established a decade ago, Aviaconversiya develops and produces jammers to suppress different kinds radio systems, including the global positioning system guidance gear used in aircraft and bombs.


GPS receivers rely on signals from orbiting satellites.

The US government last year imposed sanctions on KBP for allegedly selling antitank weapons to Syria. KBP's laser-guided Kornet-E anti-tank missiles are designed to destroy armored vehicles and tanks at a distance of up to 6,000 metres.

- AP

[Kingpin]

He he. Can you make font a bit larger? I don't see such small letters :)
US can protest against anything - they didn't published any proof of such allegations. Remember what happened with WMD search after all?

[HELEX]

There was no ATGM fired at US-Tanks in the Attack, not a single one in the whole war!

[Sergei]

And I can write that Elvis is probably living on the other side of moon. Go figure! :backhand:
Albabnian, these allegations were proven wrong. And the **** about passive radars, that "were supposedly supplied by Ukraine" is also a lame blow of the air. They are still looking for those passive radars in Iraq. They probably there where the WMDs are! :D :D

[Merik]

It's known the russians and serbians sold to iraq weapons, passive radars and night vision devices.

I dont know about the Albanians but its known the French and Germans did.

Back to the topic at hand though, didnt someone from the original topic say something about it could have been a rail gun :cantbeli: ?

[AK-Lover]

What is?
Awesome that that thing wen't through all that stuff, that's crazy ass velocity! :D

[RomanS]

It's known the russians and serbians sold to iraq weapons, passive radars and night vision devices.

Lets see what else is known

Russians and Serbians were never part of Al-queda or any other muslim terrorist group that targeted the FREE WORLD.
A lot of weapons were sold by the independent companies, that don't represent Russian Federation.

ALbanians are known to be part of Al-queda, and a numerous muslim terror groups.

The Albanian terrorists are a known to be in locations like Afghanistan, Pakistan, Tadjikistan, Chechnya, Iraq (fedaeen mercs) fighting for the islamic terror. NOT AGAINST IT

Albanians terrorists in Serbia
http://emperors-clothes.com/reports/news/moia083098.htm

if you type Albanian Terrorists in any search engine - you will have A **** LOAD OF RESULTS!

Enough Said

[MaDuce]

Wow Cossacks are so silly they accuse each other of being curroupt when in fact both Russia and Albania is control by their reaspective mafias...but to get back to the topic I don't think it's an RPG.

[Operation Ivy]

The Bush administration is furious that Iraq has recently obtained Russian military equipment that could cripple the Army's M-1 Abrams supertank or destroy low-flying helicopters in spite of a United Nations arms embargo imposed in 1991.

Why are they calling the M1, supertank?

Oprn Ivy is the Tank customer support here. *paging oprn ivy*

Whats wrong with calling it a supertank,its very good tank,a very super tank actaully :D

[RBull]

What is?
Awesome that that thing wen't through all that stuff, that's crazy ass velocity! :D

"All that stuff" you mean the side armor, rubber hose, plain air, leather seat, box full of wires and another side armor? I wonder how "all that stuff" compares to front armor...

[HELEX]

@Merik


I dont know about the Albanians but its known the French and Germans did.

And why you genius was there not a single one found in Iraq, or any picture shown? Maybe they are there where all these WMDs are?

Nations opposing the attack were blamed with this Bull****!

MORON :cantbeli:

[RomanS]

The Russian Saying (might be different in other world locations)

For every ass there is a screw
For every Titanic there is an iceberg

no super equipment !

everything we make will be breakable.

Now I personally think it was a Vampir RPG29 with a penetration charge.

[ALBANIAN]

It's known the russians and serbians sold to iraq weapons, passive radars and night vision devices.

Lets see what else is known

Russians and Serbians were never part of Al-queda or any other muslim terrorist group that targeted the FREE WORLD.
A lot of weapons were sold by the independent companies, that don't represent Russian Federation.

ALbanians are known to be part of Al-queda, and a numerous muslim terror groups.

The Albanian terrorists are a known to be in locations like Afghanistan, Pakistan, Tadjikistan, Chechnya, Iraq (fedaeen mercs) fighting for the islamic terror. NOT AGAINST IT

Albanians terrorists in Serbia
http://emperors-clothes.com/reports/news/moia083098.htm

if you type Albanian Terrorists in any search engine - you will have A **** LOAD OF RESULTS!

Enough Said

Give a name of albanians with these terrorists!
And you sell weapons to every one, you sell you mother for a bottle of votka.

[RomanS]

It's known the russians and serbians sold to iraq weapons, passive radars and night vision devices.

Lets see what else is known

Russians and Serbians were never part of Al-queda or any other muslim terrorist group that targeted the FREE WORLD.
A lot of weapons were sold by the independent companies, that don't represent Russian Federation.

ALbanians are known to be part of Al-queda, and a numerous muslim terror groups.

The Albanian terrorists are a known to be in locations like Afghanistan, Pakistan, Tadjikistan, Chechnya, Iraq (fedaeen mercs) fighting for the islamic terror. NOT AGAINST IT

Albanians terrorists in Serbia
http://emperors-clothes.com/reports/news/moia083098.htm

if you type Albanian Terrorists in any search engine - you will have A **** LOAD OF RESULTS!

Enough Said

Give a name of albanians with these terrorists!
And you sell weapons to every one, you sell you mother for a bottle of votka.

Well if I do sell my mom for bottle of VODKA (not votka), at least Ill drink the guilt of selling my mom away with liquor.
By the way I can have liquor, cigaretes, ****, video games, nice cars, grilled pork chops.

What do you guys do with your mothers and females in Albania? Cut their throats, put vails on them, stone them to death.

What a life !

[ALBANIAN]

Boy, you are russina, the most barbaric race.
I know how do you treat your women, how many millions of russian girls are prostitutes in the world.
Few years ag, one italian friend of mine was in Russia for bussines.
He was invited to go to a restorant by his russian friend, and the russian didn't take his wife at restorant, "why to waste good food for her".
Go to hell damned barbar.

[RomanS]

Boy, you are russina, the most barbaric race.
I know how do you treat your women, how many millions of russian girls are prostitutes in the world.
Few years ag, one italian friend of mine was in Russia for bussines.
He was invited to go to a restorant by his russian friend, and the russian didn't take his wife at restorant, "why to waste good food for her".
Go to hell damned barbar.

Mods read his replies
and make a smart desision


As for Russian girls, yes they are plenty of them into Erotic Show Business. You know it's legal in many places. Accept muslims terrorists like you don't like to see beautiful naked women.

Because -
LACK OF THEM in your country

various little furry animals rather turn you on (goats, lamb, sheeps)

[He219]

I'm getting sick of your prophanity, ALBANIAN.

Knock it off! Keep the dialogue civilized.

:bash:

[Russian Texan]

Boy, you are russina, the most barbaric race.
I know how do you treat your women, how many millions of russian girls are prostitutes in the world.
Few years ag, one italian friend of mine was in Russia for bussines.
He was invited to go to a restorant by his russian friend, and the russian didn't take his wife at restorant, "why to waste good food for her".
Go to hell damned barbar.

rofl rofl rofl rofl rofl rofl rofl rofl

Your anger entertains me, please don't stop...

Actually the reason for so many girls/women of slavic origin selling themselves is demand...
Men like beautiful women - hence the popularity of Russian, Ukranian, Czhech, etc. girls.
And I think you are so angry and upset because you can't get any due to your physical appearance and you can't afford any finance wise either...



Ромыч, не обращай на дебила внимания, пусть бесится людям насмех...

[ALBANIAN]

So sell million as women as prostitutes is legal?
Sure for your mentality.

http://www.arminm.com/russian_cannibals.htm

[RomanS]

So sell million as women as prostitutes is legal?
Sure for your mentality.

http://www.arminm.com/russian_cannibals.htm

YOu gonna BE BANNED

look at you, came here all tough an big.
Changed my view on most of the Albanian people, you should be a shamed of yourself. You make the good Albanians look very BAD.

What a great way to prove your point!

BE BANNED YOU DEVIL

[Operation Ivy]

ummm anyway

Go Abrams woot
http://img20.photobucket.com/albums/v60/OpIvy/Tank31123O.jpg

[HELEX]

Naaaaa!

Go Leopard!

http://www.army-technology.com/projects/leopard/images/leopard2tank-14.jpg

:P

[Sayeret]

Please go back to the topic of the posting.

[Operation Ivy]

Naaaaa!

Go Leopard!

http://www.army-technology.com/projects/leopard/images/leopard2tank-14.jpg

:P

psh piece of crap p-)

[Merik]

@Merik


I dont know about the Albanians but its known the French and Germans did.

And why you genius was there not a single one found in Iraq, or any picture shown? Maybe they are there where all these WMDs are?

Nations opposing the attack were blamed with this Bull****!

MORON :cantbeli:

Hey man no need for the attitude around here. I was just stating what I know so back off.

[Marmot1]

So sell million as women as prostitutes is legal?
Sure for your mentality.

http://www.arminm.com/russian_cannibals.htm

YOu gonna BE BANNED

look at you, came here all tough an big.
Changed my view on most of the Albanian people, you should be a shamed of yourself. You make the good Albanians look very BAD. What a great way to prove your point!

BE BANNED YOU DEVIL

Put Russians instead of Albanians then direct it to permski and I will sign under it right away...

He hates Russians just the same like you hate every muslim on earth Permski. You are worth each other...

[RomanS]

So sell million as women as prostitutes is legal?
Sure for your mentality.

http://www.arminm.com/russian_cannibals.htm

YOu gonna BE BANNED

look at you, came here all tough an big.
Changed my view on most of the Albanian people, you should be a shamed of yourself. You make the good Albanians look very BAD. What a great way to prove your point!

BE BANNED YOU DEVIL

Put Russians instead of Albanians then direct it to permski and I will sign under it right away...

He hates Russians just the same like you hate every muslim on earth Permski. You are worth each other...

go have *** with your hampsters !

[StukaJr]

So sell million as women as prostitutes is legal?
Sure for your mentality.

http://www.arminm.com/russian_cannibals.htm

YOu gonna BE BANNED

look at you, came here all tough an big.
Changed my view on most of the Albanian people, you should be a shamed of yourself. You make the good Albanians look very BAD. What a great way to prove your point!

BE BANNED YOU DEVIL

Put Russians instead of Albanians then direct it to permski and I will sign under it right away...

He hates Russians just the same like you hate every muslim on earth Permski. You are worth each other...

Just the same way you hold a grudge against Russians - so can it.... No need to fuel the flame war

[MaDuce]

mustmato put it so elegantly

I said it once, in singular you know. I meant more that I do not like the Albanian
menthality at all. As you probably know there live Albanians (for clarity, this includes
Albanians from Kosovo as well), in millions outside Albania, and well, a lot of them
(thousands) live in the town where I live, as well as many other people from
ex-Yugoslavia.

If I put it like this, Albanian and Swedish culture can´t be combined. My theory
is that since your state sucks, and always have sucked hard, Albanians are raised
to almost "clans", the family means a lot. There is also this business menthality
that doesn´t exist here, mafia menthality, "hey, the police can´t do anything,
so you can buy some protection from my mate, I have a Kalashnikov", also this
"business menthality" means that there is a Albanians mafia. Here they are the
ones responsibly for almost all that is smuggled in to the country. Our local
police here made a survey a couple of months ago, out of the 50 worst young
criminals here (that they know of), 37 were Albanians!! There were a lot of other
ex-Yugoslavs, and only one of them was a Swede.

There is a old joke here, "never run over a Albanian with a bicycle, because it´s
probably yours". Well yeah yeah, I know that you had rough times with Hoxha, Tito
and everything and that probably shows of in Albanians menthality, the thing I don´t
understand though is why we here up north have to suffer because of that

[GazB]

"All that stuff" you mean the side armor, rubber hose, plain air, leather seat, box full of wires and another side armor? I wonder how "all that stuff" compares to front armor...

It compares in the same way that a light infantry weapon like RPG compares with a heavy anti tank missile like Kornet or Krisanthema.


but to get back to the topic I don't think it's an RPG.


Now I personally think it was a Vampir RPG29 with a penetration charge.

Considering the position of the hit a standard run of the mill RPG-7 would be powerful enough, why would it have to be a magic bullet?

[platform389]

And was there any solution? :oops:

They are working on it. Don't think it will announced to the public. :D Here are some links.

http://www.space.com/businesstechnology/technology/military_laser_031021.html
http://www.dtic.mil/ndia/11ground/ford.pdf
http://www.arl.army.mil/wmrd/Tech/ArmorResearch-both.pdf
http://www.arl.army.mil/wmrd/Tech/Survivability-Tech/survivability-tech.html
http://www.star.t.u-tokyo.ac.jp/projects/MEDIA/xv/oc.html

Force fields, rail guns, cloaking devices... science fiction come to life.

[dejawolf]

USA gave WMD's to iraq. that's why they were so certain to find those weapons.

[Frens]

USA gave WMD's to iraq. that's why they were so certain to find those weapons.

:cantbeli: :cantbeli: :cantbeli: :cantbeli: :cantbeli:

[George W. Bush]

USA gave WMD's to iraq. that's why they were so certain to find those weapons.

I gave your mom chlamydia. Don't worry it was discovered early and IIRC she's cured.

[Operation Ivy]

USA gave WMD's to iraq. that's why they were so certain to find those weapons.

AWsome another Anti-American :|

[dejawolf]

just because i tell you something that is true it makes me anti-american?

it pisses me off to read posts made by arrogant US kids, like "france and germany sold weapons to iraq, but USA is much better, they're not supporting terrorism, and is kicking iraqs butt" kinda talk.

so, now that bush can't find the long-lost WMD's his father gave to saddam, he switched purpose of the war to "liberating iraq".
right now, it seems to turn into another vietnam.

in the end, USA is a great country with lots of great people. it's just sad that it's led by airheads like bush.

[George W. Bush]

just because i tell you something that is true it makes me anti-american?

Oh boy.


it pisses me off to read posts made by arrogant US kids, like "france and germany sold weapons to iraq, but USA is much better, they're not supporting terrorism, and is kicking iraqs butt" kinda talk.

France sold $20 billion worth of weapons to Iraq before the GW embargo took effect. France became Iraq's No.2 trading partner – second only to Russia.


so, now that bush can't find the long-lost WMD's his father gave to saddam, he switched purpose of the war to "liberating iraq".
right now, it seems to turn into another vietnam.

and what will you say when WMD are found in Iraq?


in the end, USA is a great country with lots of great people. it's just sad that it's led by airheads like bush.

It's so sad that the U.S. has a president that doesn't let terrorists kill Americans unpunished?

[Operation Ivy]

in the end, USA is a great country with lots of great people. it's just so cool.
:hug:

[dejawolf]

how many terrorists from iraq has blown things up in USA?
as far as i know, iraq has been too busy fighting against it's neighbour countries to ever bother.
i think Bush should've concentrated on wiping bin ladens butt and his terror network off of this planet first.
which is nothing short of a humongous task.

[Adri]

how many terrorists from iraq has blown things up in USA?
as far as i know, iraq has been too busy fighting against it's neighbour countries to ever bother.
i think Bush should've concentrated on wiping bin ladens butt and his terror network off of this planet first.
which is nothing short of a humongous task.

the "reason" to attack Iraq was not 9/11, it was WMD's.
you can ask: where are those wmds ? instead.....

and:
it is as much proof for france selling weapons to iraq as it is for US selling weapons to iraq, but WE will never know....if we did know I sure Norway also sold weapons, why ? well Iraq was allied with the west before kuwait.

[gilgoul]

There was no ATGM fired at US-Tanks in the Attack, not a single one in the whole war!

REALLY???
wow, so it would mean that the place to go when you want to see an ATGM in actio is GAZA or the west bank, not Irak.

[fdt]

As it comes to the WMD, there are two unseparable issues... the weapon itself and who uses it... Under specific circumstances the ordinary crude machette can be a WMD as the Rwandian case proved...

[Kingpin]

As it comes to the WMD, there are two unseparable issues... the weapon itself and who uses it... Under specific circumstances the ordinary crude machette can be a WMD as the Rwandian case proved...

Both thumbs up.

[Flagg]

USA gave WMD's to iraq. that's why they were so certain to find those weapons.

Oy,

Ever see this photo?

http://www.tuftsprimarysource.org/issues/21/09/tempesta.jpg

I'm sure you'll recognise the second guy from the left right?

It's Saddam

Notice the guy on the right?

That's right.....Chirac.....current French President

Why's the photo important?

They were working on a multi-billion dollar deal to sell a nuclear reactor and ENRICHED URANIUM to Iraq.

Now what were you saying?

Something...blah,blah,blah, US, blah, WMD, blah....I don't have any sources to substantiate my claims, blah???? Eh?

"Dead Man Walking!"

[dejawolf]

Reports by the US Senate's committee on banking, housing and urban affairs -- which oversees American exports policy
-- reveal that the US, under the successive administrations of Ronald Reagan and George Bush Snr, sold materials
including anthrax, VX nerve gas, West Nile fever germs and botulism to Iraq right up until March 1992, as well as germs
similar to tuberculosis and pneumonia. Other bacteria sold included brucella melitensis, which damages major organs,
and clostridium perfringens, which causes gas gangrene.
Classified US Defence Dep-artment documents also seen by the Sunday Herald show that Britain sold Iraq the drug
pralidoxine, an antidote to nerve gas, in March 1992, after the end of the Gulf war. Pralidoxine can be reverse
engineered to create nerve gas.
The Senate committee's rep orts on 'US Chemical and Biological Warfare-Related Dual-Use Exports to Iraq', undertaken
in 1992 in the wake of the Gulf war, give the date and destination of all US exports. The reports show, for example,
that on May 2, 1986, two batches of bacillus anthracis -- the micro-organism that causes anthrax -- were shipped to
the Iraqi Ministry of Higher Education, along with two batches of the bacterium clostridium botulinum, the agent that
causes deadly botulism poisoning.
One batch each of salmonella and E coli were shipped to the Iraqi State Company for Drug Industries on August 31,
1987. Other shipments went from the US to the Iraq Atomic Energy Commission on July 11, 1988; the Department of
Biology at the University of Basrah in November 1989; the Department of Microbiology at Baghdad University in June
1985; the Ministry of Health in April 1985 and Officers' City, a military complex in Baghdad, in March and April 1986.
The shipments to Iraq went on even after Saddam Hussein ordered the gassing of the Kurdish town of Halabja, in which
at least 5000 men, women and children died. The atrocity, which shocked the world, took place in March 1988, but a
month later the components and materials of weapons of mass destruction were continuing to arrive in Baghdad from
the US.
The Senate report also makes clear that: 'The United States provided the government of Iraq with 'dual use' licensed
materials which assisted in the development of Iraqi chemical, biological and missile-system programmes.'
This assistance, according to the report, included 'chemical warfare-agent precursors, chem ical warfare-agent
production facility plans and technical drawings, chemical warfare filling equipment, biological warfare-related
materials, missile fabrication equipment and missile system guidance equipment'.
Donald Riegle, then chairman of the committee, said: 'UN inspectors had identified many United States manufactured
items that had been exported from the United States to Iraq under licences issued by the Department of Commerce,
and [established] that these items were used to further Iraq's chemical and nuclear weapons development and its
missile delivery system development programmes.'

[ibstolidude]

And had you taken the time to actually read or research these reports you would realise that the US government did not give these agents away. They were exported directly form US civilian companies that were acting at that time IAW the then current export regulations. Not only Iraq was able to recieve such agents and dual use technologies so were many countires and even a few civilian americans who took the time to list themselves as research laboratories needing such agents for medical research.

But hey what do the facts matter, you have a point to make.

The concept of the point you choose to make is fine the manner with which you did it is very questionable.
Your post does the same thing you claim to dislike in the posts "by arrogant US kids". This post can be called "USA sold weapons to iraq, but France and Germany are much better, they're not supporting terrorism" kinda talk. Although you are entitled to your opinion and SHOULD express it, keep in mind your own hypocrasy and the manner with which you choose to make your point.

More importantly WHAT DOES THIS HAVE TO DO WITH THE TOPIC on hand, there are countless other threads in which this would be appropriate and should be conintued there.

[fdt]

What's so new about such a US policy...? SOB but our SOB... How many of such bas*tards have US grown in past century and still growing? Dozens. How many of such has France grown in last century and still growing? Dozens (esp. in Africa). What is the difference? US sometimes catches them and puts them into jail (like Noriega), France offers them an asylum and fat retirement after they fly for life from their countries (like "Emperor Bokassa"). That's the difference... :lol: