Plea for help from a Zimbabwean?

[Trident-za]

This poem was published in a local South African paper this weekend. The author was offered a farm by the Zimbabwean governemnt if he stopped slatting the Mugabe governemnt. He refused, and has had to seek asylum outside Zim.

I'm not saying the following poem is any good, but.... it s worth thinking about : who will help these people?

(all grammatical stuff is exactly as the author wanted it)



what are you dreaming
when streams of childrens blood
creep on your desks,
mournfully;
when mothers only have
memories for husbands
what are you doing?

raindrops of tears on your table,
tears of zimbabwean mothers,
children!
fathers,
searching for the disappeared.
procedure!
procedure!
you shout in eloquent french
and immmaculate suites.

and the land overflows with
despair.

what are you doing
when every hill harbours a
political corpse
when the teachers pillows are
fresh skulls
and villagers sing songs at
gunpoint?

what are you doing
when only praise-singers eat and
laugh
when the hills are places of fear
when the soil smells of fresh
blood and corpses

what are you doing
when civil war reigns
when spears are sharpened
when guns run the household
in the hands of the rulers?

what are you doing
when teachers' bare buttocks
are exposed in front of the
school parade
when lady teacher is is raped in
front
of the children she teaches?
what are you doing
smiling, drinking, good german
wine,
debating outcomes already
there,
when the sun rises only for the
rulers

and the earth trembles in front
of childrens
small feet?
what are you doing
when tyranny eats at
the skin of defenceless people
when tyranny devours its own
people
and drenches its mouth with
blood of the citizens?

you may not remember me,
but i am the child
who knocks on the door of your
conscience
every morning at your breakfast
of juicy steaks
and a dash of icecream

i am only a tiny grain
of the memory you abandoned.
you will not hear me soon,
for I will only be a pool of
silence:
dead or raped to silence.

what are you doing
when the republic is burned to
ashes
by those entrusted with hands of
morality?

the joyful songs die
from lips that starve.

the birds that sing
are shot dead
the militia determine
the red colour of the sky.
village kings kneel
to the murderers
in prayer to be spared another
death.
what are you doing
sitting in your palace
debating state possiblities
and futile scenarios
while reality stares you in the
face
like a staring child?

i know
you will not remember me
for i am only a blank map
filed by neither you nor god.



Worth worrying about? Or is Zimbabwe too low down on the scale of national interest? A dicator who has committed mass atrocites, sure, but .... why else should anyone care?

[ALBANIAN]

This poem was published in a local South African paper this weekend. The author was offered a farm by the Zimbabwean governemnt if he stopped slatting the Mugabe governemnt. He refused, and has had to seek asylum outside Zim.

I'm not saying the following poem is any good, but.... it s worth thinking about : who will help these people?

(all grammatical stuff is exactly as the author wanted it)



what are you dreaming
when streams of childrens blood
creep on your desks,
mournfully;
when mothers only have
memories for husbands
what are you doing?

raindrops of tears on your table,
tears of zimbabwean mothers,
children!
fathers,
searching for the disappeared.
procedure!
procedure!
you shout in eloquent french
and immmaculate suites.

and the land overflows with
despair.

what are you doing
when every hill harbours a
political corpse
when the teachers pillows are
fresh skulls
and villagers sing songs at
gunpoint?

what are you doing
when only praise-singers eat and
laugh
when the hills are places of fear
when the soil smells of frsh
blood and corpses

what are you doing
when civil wa reigns
when spears are sharpened
when guns run the household
in the hands of the rulers?

what are you doing
when teachers' bare buttocks
are exposed in front of the
school parade
when lady teacher is is raped in
front
of the children she teaches?
what are you doing
smiling, drinking, good german
wine,
debating outcomes already
there,
when the sun rises only for the
rulers

and the earth trembles in front
of childrens
small feet?
what are you doing
when tyranny eats at
the skin of defenceless people
when tyranny devours its own
people
and drenches itsouth with
blood of the citizens?

you may not remember me,
but i am the child
who knocks on the door of your
conscience
every morning at your breakfast
of juicy steaks
and a dash of icecream

i am only a tiny grain
of the memory you abandoned.
you will not hear me soon,
for I will only be a pool of
silence:
dead or raped to silence.

what are you doing
when the republic is burned to
ashes
by those entrusted with hands of
morality?

the joyful songs die
from lips that starve.

the birds that sing
are shot dead
the militia determine
the red colour of the sky.
village kings kneel
to the murderers
in prayer to be spared another
death.
what are you doing
sitting in your palace
debating state possiblities
and futile scenarios
while reality stares you in the
face
like a staring child?

i know
you will not remember me
for i am only a blank map
filed by neither you nor god.



Worth worrying about? Or is Zimbabwe too low down on the scale of national interest? A dicator who has committed mass atrocites, sure, but .... why else should anyone care?

Another marxist paradise.

[WARPIG]

Truly a horrific time in that country. Not to sound insensitive, but what can be done? What can any outside force do? I know little of the violence and inhuman goings on in that country. But, I would guess that many do not.

[Royal]

If there is one country that we should have invaded and 'sorted the political system' of it is Zimbabwe :(

[Trident-za]

On the contrary: many DO know. The problem is that Zimbabwe is a "nothing" in world terms. You cannot convince me that the Europe and the US don't know whats going on. The reality for Zimbabwe is: It has no impact on the middle east process, or the war on terror, and it has no oil. Strategically, it's worthless.... hard truth, but unfortunate for the average Zimbabwean....

[Trident-za]

If there is one country that we should have invaded and 'sorted the political system' of it is Zimbabwe :(

Well said Royal.... in terms of humanitarian abuses, its really tough to top Mugabe. Saddam was a kitten in comparison.

[Argyll]

If there is one country that we should have invaded and 'sorted the political system' of it is Zimbabwe :(

Shall we go Royal?

2 mad jocks against Mugabe's hordes..........I don't fancy their chances do you?

[Trident-za]

If there is one country that we should have invaded and 'sorted the political system' of it is Zimbabwe :(

Shall we go Royal?

2 mad jocks against Mugabe's hordes..........I don't fancy their chances do you?

:lol:

[WARPIG]

If there is one country that we should have invaded and 'sorted the political system' of it is Zimbabwe :(

Shall we go Royal?

2 mad jocks against Mugabe's hordes..........I don't fancy their chances do you?
You have space for a half Korean Yankee grunt with a little bit of stress to burn?

[Argyll]

Hell yes.............the more onboard the cheaper the flights will be ;)

[Royal]

If there is one country that we should have invaded and 'sorted the political system' of it is Zimbabwe :(

Shall we go Royal?

2 mad jocks against Mugabe's hordes..........I don't fancy their chances do you?


Fix bayonets...

Ready...

Piper...

Chaaaarge

[EvanL]

DOnt leave this canuck behind. Let me grab my hockey stick and get my head ready for some glasgow kisses.

[Trident-za]

All these replies have been entertaining, and to some extent a relief (people care about Zimbabwe!!) Having said that, I'm not sure that humour is gonna solve the problem, nor is symapthy :(

This is not a criticism, but rather sadness.... I don't expect the world to pay attention everytime a **** situation arises, but i feel really bad for the average Zimbabwe family right now (how ironic: a white South African getting upset at the lot of black people) I know a few people from Zim, and let me tell you: the average monthly salary is currently enough to buy TWO loaves of bread a month. Damn, they must be hungry.....

[2Sheds_Jackson]

What can be done? The first question that's always asked, and IMHO rightfully so, is always "what's our national interest in this?"

It's obviously a situation that needs attention - but who will be willing to sacrifice money, lives, and political capitol for nothing more than the hope of improving things there? Any political leader would leave themselves open to certain defeat once body bags began returning in numbers.

At least in Iraq there was the threat of WMDs, Saddams history of using them, regional stability, possible T tie-in etc. All this combined is STILL not enough to justify the Iraq situation to some (just look around this forum for examples).

Am I to believe that these same people would be silent if we were to do the same thing, except for different reasons?

Is the key to making them happy the notion that the US shouldn't gain anything from the operation? Only then it would be OK?

So let's get the opinions of all you hard-line anti-Iraqi Freedom types out there. Should the 82nd Airborne suit up for Zimbabwe - why and/or why not? The c-17s are on the ramp, ready to go...you make the call. C'mon lads let's hear it. Now don't forget your exit strategy - after all, once we're in, we have to get out...

[obd]

Hey Argyl and Royal. Have fun in Z-land. I hear the baboon over there is very tasty and its possible to contract multiple diseases from a sinlge days mosquito infested march through the brush no matter how many boosters you take.

Oh and by the way the last thing that country needs is two more idiots running around with weapons. Want to make a real difference? Bring some hammers and nails and start building schools if you really care so much. Help grow crops and build wells. There are enough men with guns trying to kill Mugabe and his henchman and not enough people trying to build something good around there...

But you know what. The very fact that you brought it up in military forums should be sufficient enough to pat yourselves on the back for giving a sh*t and being so noble and then you can forget about the whole thing as if it never happened right!!!! Good job guys. I guess you get off on it. Oh well, to each his own.

Just a thought. On the other hand, Im sure the Z's would love to have two brave white men run to save them since they are so clearly incapable of saving themselves. Hey, you two could become hero's and run the post Mugabe government and then become just as corrupt as him!!!! That sounds great.

And whats even better, the Swiss will be more than happy to take the stolen money from Africa, waite for you two to get arrested or assassinated, and then just absorb all that blood money into thier own economy!!

I hate the Swiss. Dictators like Saddam, Kim Jong Il, Mugabe, Hitler, and Pol Pot, etc etc may be the barbarians and robbers of world history but the Swiss are thier accomplises.

[von_Moo142]

and IMHO rightfully so, is always "what's our national interest in this?

I can't remember who came up with the idea that the massive problems caused by AIDS in Africa could create a breeding ground for terrorism. There is a fair bit of logic behind that statement: not just because it makes some sense but also because it's a good way to convince people that we need to spend money fighting African forms of AIDS.

Can we not use a similar arguement to justify some kind of intervention in Zimbabwe?

OTH, I can't see any intervention working unless it has involvement from other African nations. It would not be possible to just send a US force in and expect a good outcome.

[chauncy republicans]

Is the key to making them happy the notion that the US shouldn't gain anything from the operation? Only then it would be ok?
Speaking for myself...My problem is not that we intervene for reasons that benefit our "national interests", but the fact that we try to hide behind false allegations and the pretext of "preserving freedom". I think most American's except those with a so-called "social concience" would not object to a war faught for "national interest." After all... most of us American's enjoy being the "world superpower", dont we?

[Tane Angle]

I am not anti-Iraqi Freedom, I just think that with only so many resources, we have to ration where we send our people. We don't have enough people in Afghanistan, not by some ten thousands. We had to pull CT forces out of other places to go to Iraq. As much as I would have liked, and do like, to see the Iraqi people free, there were more critical things-like stopping the next September 11th. I don't know if you know this about me or not, but I am currently still very unimpressed by our AT work.

There are no WMDs in Iraq. There is not one overhead radiation image that has been shown. Not even the CO2 emissions images of underground WMD plants or storage facilities. Why not? That technology is there and used everyday over Afghanistan. The images from Afghanistan are shown on CNN regularly. We used that technology to successfully target people deep underground, sensing their exhalations. Why not show the Iraq ones? Because they don't exist?

We threw away Scott Spiecher, and that haunts many of us. Had we made any attempt to get him over the past decade, including the first few years of Bush's Presidency, that would have been one thing. But While an oppressive government, there were worse so ones. The genocide had stopped. Yes, I care about what SH had done, but I care more about the active threats of today, or the future ones. I'm sorry, but with only so many resources, we have to focus on today, and save vengeance for another time.

I supported going into Rwanda. Shoot, I argued for it for a long time. The same for the Congo. Because we are in Iraq, we can't go elsewhere, I am very, very sorry to say. Forget good reasons to go into this country or that country, we don't have the physical ability.

von_Moo, while I am hardly the first person to think about AIDS in Africa relating to terrorism, the person you're looking for with that is probably me, at least in the context of this message board. AIDS requires money and an army of teachers, doctors, construction workers, and language experts. It requires most of all the teachers and doctors. AZT and like drugs are great, but they're not what I'm talking about here. I'm not talking about just raw money and drugs. I'm talking about teaching people who have no way of learning today at least one simple fact: Condoms, while not very effective, are the only material anti-AIDS device. Teaching abstinence is great, but it's not realistic when it's the only thing taught. So that's fighting AIDS. We can do those things while the military

Other situations, like Rwanda, the Congo, and Zimbabwe require large amounts of military forces. We don't have them available, and won't for we didn't.some years to come. It's a different situation because it requires different resources, sorry. I would like to help, but the US can't. Physically, we can't send men we don't have.

That's why I don't like that we went into Iraq. Because 4 million innocent civilians in the Congo were slaughtered in the first three years of Bush's presidency and we did squat. And yes, I mean we did nothing, because we elected Bush. I demand accountability from my subordinates, and from my superiors. DCI Tenet takes the blame for intelligence mess-ups, Bush should(but doesn't) take the blame for appointing Tenet if Tenet did in fact mess up. We the voters take the blame for voting Bush into office. How can we make up for that mistake? Vote Kerry in. I may not like Kerry, but at least he's better than Bush.

I didn't mean to politicize this thread, and I hope that I do not, and was therefore considering taking out much of this post, but then I considered that politics and intervention are directly related. It is because of certain things in politics-such as Bush's seat in the Presidency-that resulted in our inability to help militarily in Africa, among other places.

Have a good one, and just some thoughts...

[usa320]

I think something does need to be done. thats for sure.

But if the United states does anything we will be seen as the great sataan agressor. if we dont we are seen as negligent.

I think its about time countries like France, Germany, maybe Russia or Canada step up... They complain we did a ****ty job with iraq, why dont they show how much better they are...

[Red]

Hey Argyl and Royal. Have fun in Z-land. I hear the baboon over there is very tasty and its possible to contract multiple diseases from a sinlge days mosquito infested march through the brush no matter how many boosters you take.

Oh and by the way the last thing that country needs is two more idiots running around with weapons. Want to make a real difference? Bring some hammers and nails and start building schools if you really care so much. Help grow crops and build wells. There are enough men with guns trying to kill Mugabe and his henchman and not enough people trying to build something good around there...

But you know what. The very fact that you brought it up in military forums should be sufficient enough to pat yourselves on the back for giving a sh*t and being so noble and then you can forget about the whole thing as if it never happened right!!!! Good job guys. I guess you get off on it. Oh well, to each his own.

Just a thought. On the other hand, Im sure the Z's would love to have two brave white men run to save them since they are so clearly incapable of saving themselves. Hey, you two could become hero's and run the post Mugabe government and then become just as corrupt as him!!!! That sounds great.

And whats even better, the Swiss will be more than happy to take the stolen money from Africa, waite for you two to get arrested or assassinated, and then just absorb all that blood money into thier own economy!!

I hate the Swiss. Dictators like Saddam, Kim Jong Il, Mugabe, Hitler, and Pol Pot, etc etc may be the barbarians and robbers of world history but the Swiss are thier accomplises.
Your logic is outstanding :roll:

[Red]

I am not anti-Iraqi Freedom, I just think that with only so many resources, we have to ration where we send our people. We don't have enough people in Afghanistan, not by some ten thousands. We had to pull CT forces out of other places to go to Iraq. As much as I would have liked, and do like, to see the Iraqi people free, there were more critical things-like stopping the next September 11th. I don't know if you know this about me or not, but I am currently still very unimpressed by our AT work.

There are no WMDs in Iraq. There is not one overhead radiation image that has been shown. Not even the CO2 emissions images of underground WMD plants or storage facilities. Why not? That technology is there and used everyday over Afghanistan. The images from Afghanistan are shown on CNN regularly. We used that technology to successfully target people deep underground, sensing their exhalations. Why not show the Iraq ones? Because they don't exist?

We threw away Scott Spiecher, and that haunts many of us. Had we made any attempt to get him over the past decade, including the first few years of Bush's Presidency, that would have been one thing. But While an oppressive government, there were worse so ones. The genocide had stopped. Yes, I care about what SH had done, but I care more about the active threats of today, or the future ones. I'm sorry, but with only so many resources, we have to focus on today, and save vengeance for another time.

I supported going into Rwanda. Shoot, I argued for it for a long time. The same for the Congo. Because we are in Iraq, we can't go elsewhere, I am very, very sorry to say. Forget good reasons to go into this country or that country, we don't have the physical ability.

von_Moo, while I am hardly the first person to think about AIDS in Africa relating to terrorism, the person you're looking for with that is probably me, at least in the context of this message board. AIDS requires money and an army of teachers, doctors, construction workers, and language experts. It requires most of all the teachers and doctors. AZT and like drugs are great, but they're not what I'm talking about here. I'm not talking about just raw money and drugs. I'm talking about teaching people who have no way of learning today at least one simple fact: Condoms, while not very effective, are the only material anti-AIDS device. Teaching abstinence is great, but it's not realistic when it's the only thing taught. So that's fighting AIDS. We can do those things while the military

Other situations, like Rwanda, the Congo, and Zimbabwe require large amounts of military forces. We don't have them available, and won't for we didn't.some years to come. It's a different situation because it requires different resources, sorry. I would like to help, but the US can't. Physically, we can't send men we don't have.

That's why I don't like that we went into Iraq. Because 4 million innocent civilians in the Congo were slaughtered in the first three years of Bush's presidency and we did squat. And yes, I mean we did nothing, because we elected Bush. I demand accountability from my subordinates, and from my superiors. DCI Tenet takes the blame for intelligence mess-ups, Bush should(but doesn't) take the blame for appointing Tenet if Tenet did in fact mess up. We the voters take the blame for voting Bush into office. How can we make up for that mistake? Vote Kerry in. I may not like Kerry, but at least he's better than Bush.

I didn't mean to politicize this thread, and I hope that I do not, and was therefore considering taking out much of this post, but then I considered that politics and intervention are directly related. It is because of certain things in politics-such as Bush's seat in the Presidency-that resulted in our inability to help militarily in Africa, among other places.

Have a good one, and just some thoughts...
Tane,again you amaze me with your straight talk.My take on this is that while AIDs is a national security problem in a lot of the African Nations,i see that poverty is the biggest problem and thus the most active catalyst in the terrorism test tube.From what i have seen in my experience,i believe that poverty has to be addressed for Africa not to become another Middle East.Now does that mean rich countries should start truck loading money?no is my answer.What needs to be done is that the US govt needs to do someting about the types of govt's found all over Africa.The US govt is making a similar mistake it made in the mid east that i think in Africa they still have time to correct.This mistake is supporting governments that are not popular or liked by the masses.Once these folks see you as supporting their opressors,you automatically become their enemies.I understand that national interest call for doing some questionable things but in the long run,i think that this policy will come back and explode in the face of the US.Just my 2 cents.what ya think.

[ibstolidude]

If there is one country that we should have invaded and 'sorted the political system' of it is Zimbabwe :(

Shall we go Royal?

2 mad jocks against Mugabe's hordes..........I don't fancy their chances do you?


Fix bayonets...

Ready...

Piper... What you brits like to have a quick smoke before the rumble?
Chaaaarge

;) You guys are such foreigners....

[chauncy republicans]

Great post Tane Angle!! ;)

[Tane Angle]

Thanks guys. You think that's good, you should see ibistolidude fire his rifle over his shoulder, Annie Oakley-style.

benibo, I think poverty and AIDS are directly related, by the way. Prostitution might not be so lucrative were there an alternative food source for so many young women. And people fight less when fed, and when they have something to lose. After all, how often do older men with families launch terrorist attacks? Far more often is it the young person who has yet to find something to cling to.

Have a good one, and just some thoughts...

[ibstolidude]

Thanks guys. You think that's good, you should see ibistolidude fire his rifle over his shoulder, Annie Oakley-style.

That's Annie WileyX ... I am always on a budget.

Good post (not the last one...one about that whole "Fern Polsy" thang).

[EvanL]

I think something does need to be done. thats for sure.

But if the United states does anything we will be seen as the great sataan agressor. if we dont we are seen as negligent.

I think its about time countries like France, Germany, maybe Russia or Canada step up... They complain we did a ****ty job with iraq, why dont they show how much better they are...Because this has been a problem since before Iraq. Why not contribute something intelligent to this conversation instead of making it seem that its someone elses problem. It is as much a problem for the U.S. as it is for everyone else, and thats why nobody cares as much as they should. Tragedy of the commons. They think that somebody else will do it, and nobody ends up doing it. And thats why we need countries like the U.S. to get it started. Thats why everybody looks up to the U.S. There a role model. It doesnt have to be through military intervention. Try it through politics and others will follow.

[Tane Angle]

ibistolidude, rofl

[Red]

now this is how a thread on www,militaryphotos.net used to be and should be.Guys exchanging ideas and having constructive conversations without name callings and finger pointing.Cheers guys

[Fox2]

Good discussion, ya'll.

I agree that something should be done, but what? It is a fairly difficult question. I don't think you will find many countries in the world who are willing to sacrifice lives, money, and equipment without any gain, strategic or material, from it. Which is sad, but unfortunately, true.

Tane, you mentioned that the reason we did nothing in the Congo was because Bush was elected. I have to ask; do you think that Al Gore would have acted any different, were he elected? I don't know, but I imagine the problems in Somalia we encountered would definitely sway his judgement.

Again, good discussion, guys.

[Red]

Good discussion, ya'll.

I agree that something should be done, but what? It is a fairly difficult question. I don't think you will find many countries in the world who are willing to sacrifice lives, money, and equipment without any gain, strategic or material, from it. Which is sad, but unfortunately, true.

Tane, you mentioned that the reason we did nothing in the Congo was because Bush was elected. I have to ask; do you think that Al Gore would have acted any different, were he elected? I don't know, but I imagine the problems in Somalia we encountered would definitely sway his judgement.

Again, good discussion, guys.
you have a point but i think of it like this,you might not have any economic gain but at the end,if that state becomes a failed state and is a safe have for terrorist then they will have to do something about it,won't they?

[Fox2]

I think the most the US could do, seeing as how Zimbabwe is not a real threat to us at the moment, would be to have the intelligence agencies try and start a coup of some type, as they have done in the past. Other than that, I can't see how it is doable, politically, economically, or strategically.

[Trident-za]

This has turned into an interesting thread - and it definitely has more replies than I expected. Some very good points raised... for the record, I don't expect the US to get involved - they have too much on their plate already, same as the UK. I honestly don't expect any overt response from any country, for a variety of reasons. On a logical level, this is completely understandable.

It's a real pity, though.... Zimbabwe is a great place (well, not right now :roll: ) with the potential to feed most of Africa.

[Yard Ape]

I think something does need to be done. thats for sure.

But if the United states does anything we will be seen as the great sataan agressor. if we dont we are seen as negligent.

I think its about time countries like France, Germany, maybe Russia or Canada step up... They complain we did a ****ty job with iraq, why dont they show how much better they are...Keep in mind that France, Germany, and Canada are all in the Balkans and in Afghanistan.

I don't know where the military capacity of the rest of the world is right now. The US is full comitted in Iraq & Afghanistan. The UK is talking of the need for a 5 year rest. Canada was fully committed even before going into Hati.

I don't think on-going missions should be shut down for this either. Kosovo is showing that hatred flares up and leaving early will only mean comming back again. We could play a game of 20/20 hind-sight. Should the world have sent troops to Zimbabwe instead of Hati? Should the US have gone into Zimbabwe instead of Iraq?

It is unfortunate that voters may not listen to speaches of global justice. Can we, as soldiers, accept the logic that may go with this? Are 10,000 foreign civilian lives worth 10 of your nation's soldiers' lives? Belgium paid that price in Rawanda but, because the UN was not ready to put muscle in to thier force, global justice did not prevail. This is the price that nations are now paying in Afghanistan & Iraq (even if both were at first launched for other reasons).

Crime against humanity is a global problem (even if it is inside of one country) and it needs a global solution.

[csqnsas]

ROYAL and Argyll,

Go for it.

In reality as an Rhodesian born , The Zimbabweans as a race are very peacefull, seems strange but it is true. Even today it would be a very safe place IF there was a democratic government and the police were not

a. Corrupted by nepotism.

b. Starving themselves.

Very nice for Mr Powel to write to uncle Bob saying he should resign. All it needs is a few SF to 'remove' him.

The USA or the UK or ANY modern army would wipe the floor with the Zim army.

They just need the balls to do it.

After Iraq there would be no reason not too.

Except the continuing destabilisation of Sub Sahara Africa and the explotation of said countries need ing the Oil, Gold and diamonds from other African marxist/one part states.

The USA has been destabilsing the place since the 60ies.

It is not going to change its policy now.

[Yard Ape]

They just need the balls to do it.

After Iraq there would be no reason not too. As has been stated, there are no available soldiers for this.


Except the continuing destabilisation of Sub Sahara Africa and the explotation of said countries need ing the Oil, Gold and diamonds from other African marxist/one part states.

The USA has been destabilsing the place since the 60ies.

It is not going to change its policy now.Where are you going with this?

[chauncy republicans]

The USA has been destabilsing the place since the 60ies. Along with the Middle East and Central/South America. :oops:

[2Sheds_Jackson]

...and Asia, North America, Europ.....hey wait a minute! Everything really IS America's fault!

I had no idea we were so powerful and crafty. Looks like the world can rest easy, with no responsibility to wipe their own bottoms 'cause it's all America's fault.

Pass the TP.

[Red]

Trident-Za,the South African govt and other allied govt's who can get their heads unstuck from the sand can come together and organize an operation to toople mugabe.The SA has a proficient spec ops ability to direct intelligence and covert action capability towards Zimbabwe.But from what i can see some african govt's seem to be either scared of mugabe or are trying to protect him.Whatever it is, i believe that mugabe can be toopled without the use of overt and overwhelming force.

[Red]

ROYAL and Argyll,

Go for it.

In reality as an Rhodesian born , The Zimbabweans as a race are very peacefull, seems strange but it is true. Even today it would be a very safe place IF there was a democratic government and the police were not

a. Corrupted by nepotism.

b. Starving themselves.

Very nice for Mr Powel to write to uncle Bob saying he should resign. All it needs is a few SF to 'remove' him.

The USA or the UK or ANY modern army would wipe the floor with the Zim army.

They just need the balls to do it.

After Iraq there would be no reason not too.

Except the continuing destabilisation of Sub Sahara Africa and the explotation of said countries need ing the Oil, Gold and diamonds from other African marxist/one part states.

The USA has been destabilsing the place since the 60ies.

It is not going to change its policy now.
please dont start,this is one of a few desent threads left :|

[Yard Ape]

i believe that mugabe can be toopled without the use of overt and overwhelming force.Could an alternative approach ensure that he is not replaced y someone equally as bad?

[Red]

i believe that mugabe can be toopled without the use of overt and overwhelming force.Could an alternative approach ensure that he is not replaced y someone equally as bad?
Well that is a risk that we just might have to take.

[Flagg]

If a peace-enforcement or peace-keeping mission were initiated for Zimbabwe and NZ played a part...I'd volunteer in a second.

But having said that...I don't necesarily think it's going to happen anytime soon, even though most of us probably agree it should.

I'm no expert on African Affairs, but I suspect that pride, honour, and apathy, amongst other things....plays a big part in how things have gotten to this stage.

I find it ironic how the UN led international community condemned and banished Rhodesia for it's racist policies at a time it maintained one of Africa's strongest economies, yet it ignores the nearly 25 year dictatorial rule of Mugabe's racist/muderous policies against white africans and the destruction of Zimbabwe's economy.

I don't think Rhodesia's policies were right......but certainly any village idiot worth his salt can see Zimbabwe is 100 times the problem Rhodesia was.

When I see how impotent the UN and OAU are in dealing with Zimbabwe, I can't help but feel those organizations are a sham.

[Red]

If a peace-enforcement or peace-keeping mission were initiated for Zimbabwe and NZ played a part...I'd volunteer in a second.

But having said that...I don't necesarily think it's going to happen anytime soon, even though most of us probably agree it should.

I'm no expert on African Affairs, but I suspect that pride, honour, and apathy, amongst other things....plays a big part in how things have gotten to this stage.

I find it ironic how the UN led international community condemned and banished Rhodesia for it's racist policies at a time it maintained one of Africa's strongest economies, yet it ignores the nearly 25 year dictatorial rule of Mugabe's racist/muderous policies against white africans and the destruction of Zimbabwe's economy.

I don't think Rhodesia's policies were right......but certainly any village idiot worth his salt can see Zimbabwe is 100 times the problem Rhodesia was.

When I see how impotent the UN and OAU are in dealing with Zimbabwe, I can't help but feel those organizations are a sham.
I could not help but agree with what you write,these so called organizations have become mere symbols.The UN and the OAU are not organizations i really care for.The problem is that Mugabe like other dictataors like him in africa have this notion of them doing their people a favor by keeping them safe from the "evil" white people.Another problem that i have observed is the woefull condition that a lot of African militaries are.Except from the South Africans and a few countries,no other country in Africa can mount a covert action to oust mugabe.And besides,there are so many governments in Africa that have leaders that are in the caliber of Mugabe.Birds of the same feathers flock together.To each his own

[Yard Ape]

What ever is done, it will have to be followed by a reconstruction campaign.
http://www.militaryphotos.net/forums/viewtopic.php?p=205931#205931

[Red]

What ever is done, it will have to be followed by a reconstruction campaign.
http://www.militaryphotos.net/forums/viewtopic.php?p=205931#205931
well thats true but that is something that could be done.I just wish a lot of these African nations can build their CT and UW capability as well as intel

[Mr Gently Benevolent]

Could an alternative approach ensure that he is not replaced y someone equally as bad?
Probably not, this is usually the sequence of events in these situations, but I wish it was not.

[Red]

Could an alternative approach ensure that he is not replaced y someone equally as bad?
Probably not, this is usually the sequence of events in these situations, but I wish it was not.
But what if the US and a few willing countries trained other african countries in the art of military intervention,the african nations could do it without the US or other gov'ts getting involved.The US specila forces already conduct training of African soldiers so if they could step it up a notch to include large scale amour engagements and things of that nature,that might make a difference.

[Mr Gently Benevolent]

EDIT*Double Post*

[Mr Gently Benevolent]

But what if the US and a few willing countries trained other african countries in the art of military intervention,the african nations could do it without the US or other gov'ts getting involved.The US specila forces already conduct training of African soldiers so if they could step it up a notch to include large scale amour engagements and things of that nature,that might make a difference.
I would like to see more involvment in Africa myself but the only time anyone thinks of intervention is when the price of copper goes up due to a conflict, I don't think the political will is there in Europe or the US to do anything about it long term, almost everything that been done so far is just a sticking plaster. We see Africa as nothing more than a speculation on a commodity market we fail to see the suffering of the African people themselves its news one night on TV and not the next. I do not see anything happening for a long time even another Rwanda would not shift the major powers into doing something meaningful. :(

[Red]

But what if the US and a few willing countries trained other african countries in the art of military intervention,the african nations could do it without the US or other gov'ts getting involved.The US specila forces already conduct training of African soldiers so if they could step it up a notch to include large scale amour engagements and things of that nature,that might make a difference.
I would like to see more involvment in Africa myself but the only time anyone thinks of intervention is when the price of copper goes up due to a conflict, I don't think the political will is there in Europe or the US to do anything about it long term, almost everything that been done so far is just a sticking plaster. We see Africa as nothing more than a speculation on a commodity market we fail to see the suffering of the African people themselves its news one night on TV and not the next. I do not see anything happening for a long time even another Rwanda would not shift the major powers into doing something meaningful. :(
I agree but a few people are starting to see that there is more to Africa than this "****hole" idea.For example in my country which is rabidly pro-American in fact it is so bad that the local culture is eroded and has been taken over by everything western.The US and other sensible govt's can harness this goodwill and use it to their advantage before other malicious groups intervene and poison the water

[Flagg]

But what if the US and a few willing countries trained other african countries in the art of military intervention,the african nations could do it without the US or other gov'ts getting involved.

I agree a coalition of African nations providing the personnel for handling African issues is best.

But first, the personnel would have to be funded, recruited, vetted, trained, armed, and sanctioned to operate.

The biggest and first of many big hurdles would be, who pays for it? No african nation can afford to pay even a share of it now, and for the foreseeable future....too many national domestic problems to worry about continental african problems.


The US specila forces already conduct training of African soldiers so if they could step it up a notch to include large scale amour engagements and things of that nature,that might make a difference.

Receiving training is a good thing...but I suspect the SF training there is primarily focused on localised relationship building/networking and counter-terrorist intelligence gathering under the guise of training....rather than creating an inherent African capability for dealing with the likes of Mugabe.

[Red]

But what if the US and a few willing countries trained other african countries in the art of military intervention,the african nations could do it without the US or other gov'ts getting involved.

I agree a coalition of African nations providing the personnel for handling African issues is best.

But first, the personnel would have to be funded, recruited, vetted, trained, armed, and sanctioned to operate.

The biggest and first of many big hurdles would be, who pays for it? No african nation can afford to pay even a share of it now, and for the foreseeable future....too many national domestic problems to worry about continental african problems.


The US specila forces already conduct training of African soldiers so if they could step it up a notch to include large scale amour engagements and things of that nature,that might make a difference.

Receiving training is a good thing...but I suspect the SF training there is primarily focused on localised relationship building/networking and counter-terrorist intelligence gathering under the guise of training....rather than creating an inherent African capability for dealing with the likes of Mugabe.
well it depends on wich unit they are training.I have recieved training from them beofore.It included small unit engagements,fire and manouver,medical,Peacekeeping,advanced marksmanship courses.I agree with you about the funding thing.Some African nations have beacoup amounts of money but the misuse it.There is talk about integrating African Armies but i highly doubt that will happen because there are huge differences in the capabilities in what different countries can do.I just wish Africa can wake from its slumber and begin to act like a responsible adult rather than a cry baby.
The US has been commited in rebuilding the Nigerian Army,they contracted a PMC called Mira or something like that for the armour corps.I have often heard that the CIA have a listening station in the country but it is just speculation.The US has given a lot before i left we got new shipments of M-60 machine guns to augment the GPMG's we had been using for years.I think they aslo started issuing AK-47's (which i hate) to replace worn out SLR's and G-3's

[Webley]

If there is one country that we should have invaded and 'sorted the political system' of it is Zimbabwe :(

Things were far better when it was still called Rhodesia.

[martinexsquaddie]

unfortunatly as much as I hate to agree with webley he's speaking the truth. Under Ians smith rule the Black citizens of rhodesia did'nt have the vote and were 2nd class citizens
under uncle bob
they have the vote as long as they vote for bob :(
they have the right to starve land reform needed to happen but bob stylee his cronies took the best bits and looting ensured in the others result farmland turns back into wilderness
they have the right to be raped and murdered for not liking uncle bob
Sorry OBd but the gates of hell are well overdue opening for bob.
I suggest an RAF c17 takes a detour on the way home from the litter tray
"right lads your not going home to bobs in jail" couple of hundred pissed off squaddies should have the matter wrapped in 48 hours or less.
Now anyone know where I can get a hunting licence For a bloated murderous dictator got a longbow if you want to make it sporting :|