Hizbullah rockets can't be fired from buildings

[Appaloosa]

The type of missiles being fired by Hizbullah at Israeli cities cannot be fired from within houses, mosques, hospitals or even UN facilities as has been suggested by the IDF. Due to the massive "back-blast" caused by the rocket launchers of these missiles, they can only be fired from open ground. To fire them from within a building would result in the instant death of the missile crew and probable destruction of the missile before launch. Most of the missiles are truck-mounted and are fired - on open ground - from the backs of flat-bedded trucks or larger four-wheel-drive vehicles.
Hizbullah has fired almost 2,000 missiles into Israel over the last fortnight, killing more than 50 Israelis and forcing almost one million into air raid shelters.

Despite this provocation, however, Israel's response has been sharply criticised as "disproportionate" in many quarters. In the aftermath of the deaths of dozens of innocent Lebanese women and children at Qana yesterday, even the US has urged the Israeli Defence Forces (IDF) to modify their responses to Hizbullah's attacks.

IDF spokespeople are maintaining that Hizbullah had been mounting missile attacks on Israeli territory from Qana in recent days. The IDF has claimed it targeted the three-storey house in Qana at 1.30am local time in the belief it contained a Hizbullah "asset".

Any investigation into the targeting of this house will have to consider precisely what kind of Hizbullah "asset" could possibly have been hidden in a modest, low-rise building among the narrow streets of a village such as Qana.

The type of missiles being fired by Hizbullah at Israeli cities cannot be fired from within houses, mosques, hospitals or even UN facilities as has been suggested by the IDF. Due to the massive "back-blast" caused by the rocket launchers of these missiles, they can only be fired from open ground. To fire them from within a building would result in the instant death of the missile crew and probable destruction of the missile before launch. Most of the missiles are truck-mounted and are fired - on open ground - from the backs of flat-bedded trucks or larger four-wheel-drive vehicles.

When fired, these missiles generate an enormous flare of light, heat and sound energy - a heat and light signature which is readily detected by IDF target-acquisition systems. Accurate retaliatory fire can be directed at Hizbullah launch sites by IDF aircraft and ground artillery in seconds. Such a reaction would be considered by international military norms to be proportionate and within the general "rules of engagement".

In these circumstances, having fired their missiles, Hizbullah tends to disperse as rapidly as possible. It is unlikely that a flat-bedded truck with a multilaunch rocket-system mounted on it could be easily and rapidly hidden in a village as small as Qana. Nor is it likely that such a truck-mounted weapon or four-wheel-drive vehicle could easily be hidden in a house such as the one targeted by the IDF yesterday.

The pattern and circumstances of the attack are sinister. With no telltale scorch marks from a Hizbullah missile launch visible near the destroyed house, and with no Hizbullah fighters among the dead and injured, the question remains as to what kind of "asset" the IDF could credibly allege to have been contained within the building.

The timing of the attack, taking place as it did during a period of relative calm and not in the immediate aftermath of a Hizbullah missile launch, speaks of a punitive strike designed simply to kill members of the Shia community from which Hizbullah is drawn and receives its moral support. The targeting of unarmed Shia women and children would represent a deliberate targeting of innocent civilians for retaliatory or punitive purposes, and may well constitute a war crime.

Tom Clonan is The Irish Times security analyst.

http://www.stlimc.org/newswire/display/1943/index.php




Rocket trucks can't fire from crowded urban places simply because you need a large clear secure area free to fire due to the gases applied to fire the weapon. If someone stands in the forbiden area he will be toasted.

Or we must accept that all civilians are cooperating with Hesbollah clear the area before an attack and then keep their daily activities.


http://www.militaryphotos.net/forums/showthread.php?p=1818864#post1818864

[tanks_alot]

Right...... http://www.4law.co.il/avir2.wmv

they don't fire the rockets from within buildings, they store ammuniation in the buildings and use them as bases of operation, as you can see in this video they fire near buildings and urban areas.

good article though.....

[Clarsachier]

There is no proof to back the main excuse for targeting of civilian infrastructure.

In fact, of the 24 incidents they document, HRW researchers could find no evidence that Hizbullah was operating in or near the areas that were attacked by the Israeli air force. Roth states: "The image that Israel has promoted of such [human] shielding as the cause of so high a civilian death toll is wrong. In the many cases of civilian deaths examined by Human Rights Watch, the location of Hezbollah troops and arms had nothing to do with the deaths because there was no Hezbollah around."

Israel, Not Hizbullah, is Putting Civilians in Danger on Both Sides of the Border
http://www.jkcook.net/Articles2/0269.htm#Tophttp://www.jkcook.net/Articles2/0269.htm#Top

[Latin Jewish Soldier]

This is bull crap.Hezbollah fires from roofs these rockets are mostly 122mm and can launch from buildings.If you have so much as an RPG-7 in your home it will be targated by the mighty IAF.

We Jews have been pushed around along time...As my people said after the Holocaust "Never again" we will hit back and we will not be pushed around any more!

[tanks_alot]

There is no proof to back the main excuse for targeting of civilian infrastructure.



Israel, Not Hizbullah, is Putting Civilians in Danger on Both Sides of the Border
http://www.jkcook.net/Articles2/0269.htm#Tophttp://www.jkcook.net/Articles2/0269.htm#Top
Still quoting Cook i see.... i wonder why you like the guy.....

http://www.jkcook.net/Jbookcoverlarge.jpg

[priccobe]

How about changing the last sentence of that article to read the following?
The targeting of unarmed Israeli women and children would represent a deliberate targeting of innocent civilians for retaliatory or punitive purposes, and may well constitute a war crime.
What is with the SELECTIVE outrage going on here? He's not outraged when Hezbollah deliberately targets Israeli civilians? No one cares?

[Argyll]

I always wondered about the claims of firing from INSIDE buildings, it can be done, but there's a thing called over pressure, and I know from my time as an Anti Tank Instructor, we could NOT fire MILAN from inside a building that didn't have adequate ventilation to allow the pressure release.

Why is anyone surprised about people firing weapons from around buidings in urban areas, it's not something new, it's been done for years, decades even.......it's the same with Hezbollah blending into the surroundings, it's not a new concept,it's as old as time itself, guerilla warfare,Insurgency and Counter Insurgency, and Clandestine Ops is all about blending into the every day routines, so that you don't stand out differently from the local populace......everyone does it, even Coalition troops when on Covert Missions blend into the environment,it's a strategy that's been used effectively troughout history.........so why do we act all surprised that the enemy is devious and cunning, and that it also uses the local populations support that allows them to blend in?

Jewish Columbian........this is a friendly warning to you, do not come here and preach........

[Beaufort]

Why is anyone surprised about people firing weapons from around buidings in urban areas, it's not something new, it's been done for years, decades even.......it's the same with Hezbollah blending into the surroundings, it's not a new concept,it's as old as time itself, guerilla warfare,Insurgency and Counter Insurgency, and Clandestine Ops is all about blending into the every day routines, so that you don't stand out differently from the local populace......everyone does it, even Coalition troops when on Covert Missions blend into the environment,it's a strategy that's been used effectively troughout history.........so why do we act all surprised that the enemy is devious and cunning, and that it also uses the local populations support that allows them to blend in?


No one's suprised...

But the fact is that the civilian population is paying the price for this tactic.

Also there are plenty of examples of Hizbollah using orchards/forests to fire rockets so it's not as if they don't have any other choice.

[2Sheds_Jackson]

I always wondered about the claims of firing from INSIDE buildings, it can be done, but there's a thing called over pressure, and I know from my time as an Anti Tank Instructor, we could NOT fire MILAN from inside a building that didn't have adequate ventilation to allow the pressure release.

Why is anyone surprised about people firing weapons from around buidings in urban areas, it's not something new, it's been done for years, decades even.......it's the same with Hezbollah blending into the surroundings, it's not a new concept,it's as old as time itself, guerilla warfare,Insurgency and Counter Insurgency, and Clandestine Ops is all about blending into the every day routines, so that you don't stand out differently from the local populace......everyone does it, even Coalition troops when on Covert Missions blend into the environment,it's a strategy that's been used effectively troughout history.........so why do we act all surprised that the enemy is devious and cunning, and that it also uses the local populations support that allows them to blend in?

Jewish Columbian........this is a friendly warning to you, do not come here and preach........

This seems different to me.

I'm not an expert in such things - but this looks nothing to me like classic insurgency stuff. That implies that you are attempting to win the support of the locals, that you protect them, and that your goal is to enlist their support to militarily defeat your enemy.

This looks to me like they instead use the population not as a source of support, but as a tool to achieve their goal by means of pressuring the enemy to stop fighting. A reverse war - win by losing. Draw the fire of your enemy upon the civilians, be ready with banners, signs, people who speak the language of the press so you can give tours of the damage - and then try to achieve a political victory by displaying all the death.

Hezbollah is using rockets that have a range of several miles, there is no reason for them to be so close to the civilian areas other than to draw the fire of the enemy upon those areas. A rocket launcher on the roof of an apartment building is even easier to spot than one out in a remote field so there is no benefit to them other than the PR value from the resulting air strike.

To me, using the population as a redi-made pool of gore is different than using them as a pool of labor for your army. One implies consent and cooperation, the other - well I don't think they all attended the martyrdom seminar down at the Holiday Inn. :-(

[sowannab]

i reckon it could......................just leave the freaken room before u fire it.

they said those types of things with rpgs that it couldnt be fired on blackhawks due to the backblast but the somali's found a way.....my reference is BHD book.

[HOLLiS]

One of the aspect Hezbullah has figured out, this conflict is GLOBAL......... The gore is not for local consumption, they have usually enough of it.

One of the goals is to get Israel to appear to overreact, whether Israel does is not the issue, it is whether the world perceives it as doing so. The use of Civilian in the world of propaganda is not new. Even if Hez has to create it's own casualties to sell to the media.

If the UN would have done it's job and in securing and maintained a secured Southern Lebanon borders this would not have happened. Hez is at least honest as to their intent, unlike those "globally" people clammer for a two state solution, Hezbullah states very plainly there cannot be peace, if Israel exist, only acceptable solution to Hezbullah is the annihilation of Israel, a one state solution.

If Israel wanted to keep the land, they would have never gaven the Siani back to Egypt. If Israel would have wanted to targeted the civilian population the casualties would have been in the TENS of thousands by now.

Peace will only happen probably under two situations, 1) the complete destruction of Israel, or 2) the enemies of Israel (lack of a more complete term) get tired and decide to let Israel exist.

[Daniel1115]

If Israel wanted to keep the land, they would have never gaven the Siani back to Egypt.Someone I know tells me all the time that Israel wants to conquer the entire Middle East. From time to time he shows me this ridiculous map entitled, "Greater Israel."

Since he believes this was the "Zionists'" goal even before the creation of Israel, I asked him this question: "If it is Israel's goal to claim all of the Middle East, then why didn't they take over Egypt, Syria, Iraq, and Jordan following the 6 Day War - particularly with the assistance of the imperialist Americans and Brits who are allegedly part of the entire scheme?"

Of course, he didn't have much of a response after that.

Regarding Syria, I knew they were up to something back when they removed their troops from Lebanon. Why risk losing resources and damage to your country if you can turn the other nation into the battleground (Lebanon) and utilize a proxy (Hizbullah) to gain control over your enemy.

IMO, Syria and Hizbullah want to make Lebanon become the next "Palestinian territory." They're hoping that they can manipulate the situation so much so that they can use Lebanon as another front to enter Israel in addition to recruit from the dissenting population.

I'm sure the Muslim Brotherhood, Syria, Hizbullah, and Iran would also love for Egypt to end up that way for such a purpose.

[americanbychoice]

What I don't understand most is this "disproportionate" business. So how many Jews should have been killed to make it "proportionate"? Do we really need a few more dead Jews? Was Israel supposed to wait for a few more Jews to die before they struck at Hezballah?

Peace will only happen probably under two situations, 1) the complete destruction of Israel, or 2) the enemies of Israel (lack of a more complete term) get tired and decide to let Israel exist. Again, I've always believed that the complete destruction of Israel solves nothing for the Palestinian Arab population.

It removes the scapegoat of Israel, but there's still other scapegoats for corrupt Arab & Islamist bureaucrats to point the finger at (like the UK, the US, Russia, etc). The destruction of Israel doesn't bring peace... it's probably another step towards a larger war.

[LazyLob]

The title:

“Hizbullah rockets can't be fired from buildings”………(No sh*t Sherlock)

Then he goes into specifics and says:

“The type of missiles being fired by Hizbullah at Israeli cities cannot be fired from within houses, mosques, hospitals or even UN facilities as has been suggested by the IDF.”

A classic case of mixing one truth with several lies hoping no one notices.

I haven’t trawled through all the footage but I cannot remember the IDF saying that these rockets were ever being fired from within buildings let alone UN facilities. But I could be wrong.

I am sure that without being too anal about it that “firing from a building” (not from within) means within the immediate proximity.

Partisan reporting at its worst.

[RNLMC]

quote... war is never fun but i think most of the normal people in the rest of the world.... dont give a **** what happens to isreal or one of thos surounding countrys let them murder them selves and hide behind lame exuses ....... and as sombody said in the in the thread before me about the holocaust . its really bad wat happend in ww2 but plz stop wining man thats all you guys do man no hard feelings here but this middel east thing is becoming very lame except each other and live you lifes

[Elemental666]

quote... war is never fun but i think most of the normal people in the rest of the world.... dont give a **** what happens to isreal or one of thos surounding countrys let them murder them selves and hide behind lame exuses ....... and as sombody said in the in the thread before me about the holocaust . its really bad wat happend in ww2 but plz stop wining man thats all you guys do man no hard feelings here but this middel east thing is becoming very lame except each other and live you lifes

Nice to see a mature post...
-"No body gives a ****",well what do you mean by most of the "normal" people?Those who can't point Israel on the map?
-"Let them murder them selves",yea real cool man,real cool.
-"What happend in WW2 was really bad,but stop whinning".......No man...
Really bad is used to describe a situation when your friend takes a **** on you and then upload's it to YOUTUBE.What happend back then is way beyond that.That was the dumbest post i seen so far.
Sorry guys,i'm way off topic.

[Ed Hewer]

The Israeli video posted by Tanks Alot is outstanding. Thanks.

It clearly showed a rocket truck firing from the open air ground level garage of a low rise apartment building.

The video shows numerous attacks on various rocket/missile launcher systems.

One thing I notice which I find disturbing, is the kind of ordnance Israel is using. You see a hit on launcher system obviously from a guided missile and it is clinically destroyed. That is fantastic.

Why is Israel using one thousand and two thousand pound bombs to take out a truck or Hezebollah positions in built up areas. Clearly in Qana the ordnance used there was the biggest Israel had. The destruction to neighbouring structures is incredible. Nobody wants to be within a hundred metres of a 500lb let alone a 2000lb bomb.

I don't see any nobility from either side of this battle.

The witnesses to the attack on the orchard where over 20 workers were killed near a fruit packing shed said they were hit initially by two bombs then another 10 minutes later. Three bombs to hit the fruit truck? Not to mention this was in an area at the very top(North) end of Lebanon. It is really sad when you see this happen. It isn't like it is in Israel. Israel can warn it's population (At least one minute) when Hezebollah rockets are fired but what about the Lebanese civilians, what warnings to they get?

[LazyLob]

Right...... http://www.4law.co.il/avir2.wmv

they don't fire the rockets from within buildings, they store ammuniation in the buildings and use them as bases of operation, as you can see in this video they fire near buildings and urban areas.

good article though.....

Do you notice 46 seconds into the video what seems like someone taking pictures from the rear building on the first floor? Two smaller flashes going off.

[Appaloosa]

This is bull crap.Hezbollah fires from roofs these rockets are mostly 122mm and can launch from buildings.If you have so much as an RPG-7 in your home it will be targated by the mighty IAF.

We Jews have been pushed around along time...As my people said after the Holocaust "Never again" we will hit back and we will not be pushed around any more!



your ''Never again'' attitude seems to produce again and again humanitarian disasters.

[Appaloosa]

[quote=Argyll]I always wondered about the claims of firing from INSIDE buildings, it can be done, but there's a thing called over pressure, and I know from my time as an Anti Tank Instructor, we could NOT fire MILAN from inside a building that didn't have adequate ventilation to allow the pressure release.

Why is anyone surprised about people firing weapons from around buidings in urban areas, it's not something new, it's been done for years, decades even.......it's the same with Hezbollah blending into the surroundings, it's not a new concept,it's as old as time itself, guerilla warfare,Insurgency and Counter Insurgency, and Clandestine Ops is all about blending into the every day routines, so that you don't stand out differently from the local populace......everyone does it, even Coalition troops when on Covert Missions blend into the environment,it's a strategy that's been used effectively troughout history.........so why do we act all surprised that the enemy is devious and cunning, and that it also uses the local populations support that allows them to blend in?



Like Cold War Berlin special ops vs Soviets?

[XShipRider]

How about changing the last sentence of that article to read the following?

What is with the SELECTIVE outrage going on here? He's not outraged when Hezbollah deliberately targets Israeli civilians? No one cares?

The reportage I hear on radio is very near this:

"Five Israelis killed in a Hezbollah rocket attack from Gaza."

"Five civilians killed by Israeli warplanes today comprised of three women
and two children."

Note how the Israelis are only broken down by nationality. When the
Israelis do the shooting ages and sex are given. There is a demonstrable
effort to paint the Israelis as killers of the innocent while Hezbollah
gets a 'get out of jail free' card almost daily.

I've heard people actually say, "Israel is killing the innocent." WTF?!
I guess unguided rockets into cities, towns and villages are only targeting
IDF and military targets? What a bunch of hogwash.

How 'bout some balanced reporting on the demographic of the Israeli dead.

[Appaloosa]

Do you notice 46 seconds into the video what seems like someone taking pictures from the rear building on the first floor? Two smaller flashes going off.


probably is an IDF guy taking pictures for his collection since most videos are staged inside IDF training sites p-)

[Javehn]

probably is an IDF guy taking pictures for his collection since most videos are staged inside IDF training sites p-)


Did your mommy nocked you down on the floor too many times when you was a little kid ?

[Elemental666]

probably is an IDF guy taking pictures for his collection since most videos are staged inside IDF training sites p-)

You learn something new about your army every day here...I would like to see some proof of that.

[Decebalus]

How 'bout some balanced reporting on the demographic of the Israeli dead.

What do you want man, more Lebanese civilians died in a single incident than all the Israeli civilians in the 25 day conflict.

So far about 30-40 Israeli civilians died, and over 700 Lebanese civilians.
Its common sense that they report more on those who died more.

[Clarsachier]

=americanbychoice]What I don't understand most is this "disproportionate" business. So how many Jews should have been killed to make it "proportionate"? Do we really need a few more dead Jews? Was Israel supposed to wait for a few more Jews to die before they struck at Hezballah?

It's really not that hard to understand. http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/disproportionate

When Israel responds to a homade qassam missle that hit nothing, with a 1000 lb bomb that killed a mother and 4 children in Gaza last week that's disproportionate.

When they defend the attack citing vague, 'rights to defence', 'the holocost', and that 'terrorists' were hiding near the civs, our intellegence is being insulted.

Again, I've always believed that the complete destruction of Israel solves nothing for the Palestinian Arab population.

But this drama make the civ deaths seem somehow, self defence.

It removes the scapegoat of Israel, but there's still other scapegoats for corrupt Arab & Islamist bureaucrats to point the finger at (like the UK, the US, Russia, etc). The destruction of Israel doesn't bring peace... it's probably another step towards a larger war.

More dramatic - NEWS FLASH Israel's not being destroyed
Lebanon and Gaza is, currently 1/4 of the population of the entire country is
homeless.

[HOLLiS]

=

It's really not that hard to understand. http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/disproportionate

When Israel responds to a homade qassam missle that hit nothing, with a 1000 lb bomb that killed a mother and 4 children in Gaza last week that's disproportionate.

When they defend the attack citing vague, 'rights to defence', 'the holocost', and that 'terrorists' were hiding near the civs, our intellegence is being insulted.


Actually the terrorists are insulting your intelligence. If Israel used your guidelines they would never be able to respond. Unless you think/believe in absolute surgical extraction of a bad guy in a highly populated area with out "possiblities" of other casualties is possible.

The terrorist play on your ignorance of weapons and usage. The terrorist Deliberately maintain their presence in highly populate areas for a reason. The deliberately use and encourage "innocent" to be with them when they engage the Israel. Why so when Israel responds (They know they will), people like you can yell disproportionate response, and you fell right into the part the terrorist wanted you to play.

BTW not all those rockets are home made, some are Made in Iran.. Again you play in to the terrorist hands by minimizing the terrorists responce and intent and over stating the Israelis capabilities and demanding impossible responces from the Iraelis.

[Argyll]

O know where you're coming from HOLLIS, but there's a difference in setting up a Katyusha, pointing it into a general direction ,arming it and then hoping at least one missile is going to hit something.....it's like a blind man trying to play darts, the missiles are aimed and fired blind

on the flip side, a GBU 28 and most of the weapons deployed by the IAF and IDF are precision guided weapons, that in it's self, should mean surgical precision, minimising the risk of collateral damage, but that's not what is hapening, Lebanese casualties are extremely high when comparing the different technology being used.....

I have no problem in targeting clearly identified targets where Hezbollah congregate, but targeting banks and supermarkets, and power stations, bridges,that ordinary Lebanese use, creating a much larger humanitarian issues, then it's disproportionate, the more civilians killed, the more support Hezbollah gains, a terrorist orginisation it may well be, but it also had a large support behind it, I'm sure I read somwhere they also built a few schools,and other stuff....
Lebanon is being systematicaly torn to shreds,where it was actually beggining to prosper,there's a hell of a lot more to these attacks than simple payback for the abduction of two soldiers.....

[Asheren]

probably is an IDF guy taking pictures for his collection since most videos are staged inside IDF training sites p-)

i think you wath too many news form islamic countries p-)

in 24 ceases it was proved that there was no hizbullach activity in nearby areas then what about 100s of other. Its almost classic PR trick to say number without telling how many ceases were studied and how many resulted in oposite.

You can't shot rockets from inside house but it depends on size of place you fire from etc. Not to mention that geting out of structure firing rocket,shell or whatever then hiding back inside is old trick.

I am sure that Hizbullach and their Iranian, Syrian allies are ready to fight Israel to the last lebanese.

[Clarsachier]

Actually the terrorists are insulting your intelligence. If Israel used your guidelines they would never be able to respond. Unless you think/believe in absolute surgical extraction of a bad guy in a highly populated area with out "possiblities" of other casualties is possible.

[QUOTE]The terrorist play on your ignorance of weapons and usage.

As I said, that excuse isn't fooling everybody. Some people question things that you have absolutely no evidence to support.

The terrorist Deliberately maintain their presence in highly populate areas for a reason. The deliberately use and encourage "innocent" to be with them when they engage the Israel.

We all (here) know the definition of insurgency. And BTW, ISrael also places military installations near civilian locations - but only the Arab ones.

The absurd picture that apologists are painting of the civilian apartment blocks has children playing in a courtyard, women cooking dinner, students studying while at the same time, 'terrorist' are pumping out katyushkas of the next door apartment. We're supposed to blieve that the civilians just act like nothings happening while at the same time, Israel's decimating square miles
of civilian infrastructure at a hint of 'terrorist' activity.

Pretty dumb, but people don't want to believe our buddies have become indescriminate killer badly enough to believe anything.

Why so when Israel responds (They know they will), people like you can yell disproportionate response, and you fell right into the part the terrorist wanted you to play.

Only 'people like you' understand how a half ton bomb against innocent civilians is a 'proportionate response.'

BTW not all those rockets are home made, some are Made in Iran..

Wrong, qassams are not manufactured in Iran.

Btw, this is the third time in one post where you implied 'I'm a terrorist sympathiser'. Your 'argument' always degenerates into this extremist accusation when you run out of logical dialog. It's quite offensive & it hasn't worked well for you here in the past has it?

Again you play in to the terrorist hands by minimizing the terrorists responce and intent and over stating the Israelis capabilities and demanding impossible responces from the Iraelis.

That's the 4th time;-) Dude, you're in a loop.

Israel's response just happens to be classified as a war crime. Especially since
they are only at war only because they refuse to negotiate.

Nothing Israel's been able to do have lessened the missle attacks one bit. When Hizbollah runs out of ammo, Israel will probably mount a bid media push about how they 'were successful'.

[Clarsachier]

The reportage I hear on radio is very near this:

"Five Israelis killed in a Hezbollah rocket attack from Gaza."

"Five civilians killed by Israeli warplanes today comprised of three women
and two children."

Note how the Israelis are only broken down by nationality. When the
Israelis do the shooting ages and sex are given. There is a demonstrable
effort to paint the Israelis as killers of the innocent while Hezbollah
gets a 'get out of jail free' card almost daily.

I've heard people actually say, "Israel is killing the innocent." WTF?!
I guess unguided rockets into cities, towns and villages are only targeting
IDF and military targets? What a bunch of hogwash.

How 'bout some balanced reporting on the demographic of the Israeli dead.

They won't do that because it would focus attention on the fact that Hizbollah has killed more military than civilians as opposed to Israel's killing 20 times more Lebanese civilians than Hizbollah.

It wold be counterproductive to their propaganda campaign.

[Godspeed-]

Appaloosa I take it as you havn't figured out the clip that tanks_alot have brought. Let me describe it alittle.
...

Stage 1: Hizbollah operative parks just below the house, with a vehicle packed with rockets and needed material for launching them.

Stage 2: The operative transfers a rocket to the near house and getting organized to fire from within that house.

Stage 3: Obvious - the operative shoots rockets from inside the house.

Stage 4 (Unplanned): Boom!

Afterwards you can see a Katyusha launchers (being destroyed) which are stationed in the vincinity of civilian house.
That's the routinal way of work by the Hizbollah.
What are you even trying? I mean, it's pretty damn obvious they fire from civilian's spots, they even said so in CNN which pretty much went against Israel for the entire time being.

But, ofcourse, I realise that after this being said;
probably is an IDF guy taking pictures for his collection since most videos are staged inside IDF training sites p-)
- There's not much sense into a discussion with you since you're obviously aren't mature enough to handle it in a realistic way.
staged inside IDF training sites? Oh my.. this claim is so pathetic it's matched up against the claim about the previous raid about Raiding an empty hospital which had nobody or nothing in it, and then claiming a woman was on her way over there. What about all of the other videos that shows loaded cars parking in civilian houses? These are also staged? The likes of you are absurd.

I guess you and your buddies will also say that that the fact that more than 200 Hizbollah operatives are dead by now, is completley false, and you'll support "facts" (In your opinion) that the IDF has more than five thousands casualties by now, and that 95% of our jet fighters have been destroyed by the mighty Hizbollah, right?


..By the way, Qassams are being fired from Gaza by the Hamas, not by Hizbollah from Lebanon. I'm not too sure, but I believe the Qassams are being launched from wide fields unlike the Hizbollah's rockets and katyushas.

Edit2 - If anyone can get the first page picture of that famous Lebaneese newspaper (forgot it's name), it would be e-gold. They took a photo of an israeli sea cruiser and photoshopped it in a very amateur way and quallity, making it look like it's destroyed after being hit by a missile of some kind. Now THAT'S false propoganda.

[Javehn]

Clarshachir or whatever your nick is .

Here is a thread from Lebanese forum (Lebanese Cristians , that live abroad their country as well , thus the forum , to your comfort , is at English) .

http://www.lebanese-forces.org/vbullet/showthread.php?t=19400

I understand that it is hard for you to understand what Israelies here are talking about . So - this thread happends to be talking about Hizballah presence near civilian population . I take it you can read english , and you do understand this thread happends to be first hand experience .

It is so funny for me to see your kind of people that fall right into the hands of this trick . And what is more funnier that you try to defend it .

After you will read it , be a honey , and shut the hell your eurodhimmi trap up . Sheket kelev . Uskut ya kalb .

[HOLLiS]

O know where you're coming from HOLLIS, but there's a difference in setting up a Katusha, pointing it into a general direction ,arming it and then hoping at least one missile is going to hit something.....it's like a blind man trying to play darts, the missiles are aimed and fired blind

on the flip side, a GB 28 and most of the weapons deployed by the OAF and ID are precision guided weapons, that in it's self, should mean surgical precision, minimizing the risk of collateral damage, but that's not what is happening, Lebanese casualties are extremely high when comparing the different technology being used.....

I have no problem in targeting clearly identified targets where Herbal congregate, but targeting banks and supermarkets, and power stations, bridges,that ordinary Lebanese use, creating a much larger humanitarian issues, then it's disproportionate, the more civilians killed, the more support Herbal gains, a terrorist organization it may well be, but it also had a large support behind it, I'm sure I read somewhere they also built a few schools,and other stuff....
Lebanon is being systematically torn to shreds,where it was actually beginning to prosper,there's a hell of a lot more to these attacks than simple payback for the abduction of two soldiers.....

I read from several sources. Also I remember the Jenine massacre where originally thousands where have said to have been murdered by the Israelis. The final Tulley was under a 100, Memory places it close to 50. Almost the same as the IDF casualties.

Qana, "massacre" original total has already been cut in half.

I am not there, but I am leery of just accepting some of the news as to the impact the Israelis are doing in Lebanon.

I think the two soldiers being kidnapped was the final straw. Lebanese Military was to take control of their Southern border, this is part of the UN agreement of 6 years ago?

Instead Hezbullah has maintained control of that area.

If the Israelis really were not interested in "preserving " civilian life, I strongly believe the civilian casualties would be in the tens of thousands. The tactic of operating within a highly populated area is well known. Hamas, has had shooters mixed with protesters to cover their activities and to make a IDF response very difficult. The using of civilians as shields is well documented ans well as using hospitals, Ambulances, Mosque etc to carry on "hostile activities and support".

The Ideal situation would have been the UN resolution covering the Israeli with drawl of Lebanon to have been carried out. It is obvious that Hezbullah is a terrorist organization with complete disregard for civilian casualties.

Also keep in mind friendly fire incidents....... they can not be guaranteed never to happen either. IN a 5 month period overseas, my company had two, and another had one, killing Four Marines, two Corpsman and wounding others.

Just as the MNF has been accused of deliberately targeting civilians is pure propaganda, Innocent people are killed but not targeted. I know there is not much comfort there. Same with a KIA in a friendly fire incident, the dead are just as dead regardless of how they died.

As you pointed out the ammunition Israel is using is precision and EXPENSIVE, there are cheaper weapons but they carry a heavy price tag when it comes to the increase in civilian casualties.

I know Hezbullah needs to go.

[Argyll]

I agree HOLLIS, but Hezbollah's rocket attacks are pretty much ineffective,the missile to Kill ratio is extremely low,why use up your whole resources, and have pretty shyt results,to me it looks more like Hezbollah are not being methodical in their attacks, why not organise a huge cross border raid on a settlement and slaughter everyone in it?.....They have the manpower, and the will to do it, it seems strange that using unguided rockets roughly aimed at an urban area in the sheer hope that one missile out of hundreds hits and kills an Israeli citizen seems really bizarre, when they can infiltrate into Israel, set up a cell, and take out an entire supermarket.......there's also a distinct lack of "suicide bombers" in human waves attacking Israeli assets, unlike some of the other Terrorist groups in that region.....
Where is AQ in all of this, was it not their intention to get rid of the zionists a well, isn't the Lebanon situation an ideal time for them to show themselves.

This is why I believe there's deeper political undertones going on here,didn't anyone find it surprising that the US will begin to train the Lebanese Military,when a ceasefire is in place,and a MNF team on the ground,doesn't this place a US Military presence even closer to Syria,again, who will win the contracts for the reconstruction of Lebanon,and who will provide the Security there.....

Watch this space, I'm willing to bet that Blackwater already have a package drawn up, and will deploy to Lebanon within the next Quarter,to provide security and PSD for the reconstruction teams.......

[Appaloosa]

Appaloosa I take it as you havn't figured out the clip that tanks_alot have brought. Let me describe it alittle.
...

Stage 1: Hizbollah operative parks just below the house, with a vehicle packed with rockets and needed material for launching them.

Stage 2: The operative transfers a rocket to the near house and getting organized to fire from within that house.

Stage 3: Obvious - the operative shoots rockets from inside the house.

Stage 4 (Unplanned): Boom!

Afterwards you can see a Katyusha launchers (being destroyed) which are stationed in the vincinity of civilian house.
That's the routinal way of work by the Hizbollah.
What are you even trying? I mean, it's pretty damn obvious they fire from civilian's spots, they even said so in CNN which pretty much went against Israel for the entire time being.

But, ofcourse, I realise that after this being said;

- There's not much sense into a discussion with you since you're obviously aren't mature enough to handle it in a realistic way.
staged inside IDF training sites? Oh my.. this claim is so pathetic it's matched up against the claim about the previous raid about Raiding an empty hospital which had nobody or nothing in it, and then claiming a woman was on her way over there. What about all of the other videos that shows loaded cars parking in civilian houses? These are also staged? The likes of you are absurd.

I guess you and your buddies will also say that that the fact that more than 200 Hizbollah operatives are dead by now, is completley false, and you'll support "facts" (In your opinion) that the IDF has more than five thousands casualties by now, and that 95% of our jet fighters have been destroyed by the mighty Hizbollah, right?


..By the way, Qassams are being fired from Gaza by the Hamas, not by Hizbollah from Lebanon. I'm not too sure, but I believe the Qassams are being launched from wide fields unlike the Hizbollah's rockets and katyushas.

Edit2 - If anyone can get the first page picture of that famous Lebaneese newspaper (forgot it's name), it would be e-gold. They took a photo of an israeli sea cruiser and photoshopped it in a very amateur way and quallity, making it look like it's destroyed after being hit by a missile of some kind. Now THAT'S false propoganda.



First of all i didn't say that all IDF vids are fake. The commando raid was real but who tells us that the Kalashnicovs weren't planted by the IDF?

You don't explain to us this: When Hesbollah performs all these alleged steps to fire a rocket what are civilians doing? Clear the streets hear the bang and then go on? If you were a Lebanese civilian you would accept rockets to be fired where your kids play? I accept the fact that there is a chance Hesbollah has a number of URBAN blocks to use but empty of civilians. I think that many here served in various armies and remember the security measures taken when this kind of weapons were fired. Wanna us believe that Hezis found the way to fire them from crowded areas with no civilian casualties?


Last but not least you say IDF is not going to use any dirty tricks trying to influence the media?

[Appaloosa]

Did your mommy nocked you down on the floor too many times when you was a little kid ?


Don't use the word kid. Your people killed too many already.

[Godspeed-]

Who says AK's weren't implented by the IDF? Common sense says so.
The IDF needs to spread no propoganda unlike the Hizbollah, that never was it's policy.

I don't know if I'd accept missiles being fired from my house if I was a Lebaneese civilian, but obviously enough - they allow it.
Don't you think their obvious support in Nasralla and Hizbollah shows enough proof of that? I mean, people who put pictures of Nasralla and idolize him in such a way, are bound to accept his will of using them as a human shield. Hell, they'd send themselves to a suicide bombing missions if he would've just asked.

And yea, I do say IDF isn't using any dirty tricks as of today on the media. What's wrong? Is that something SO unnatural? Well newsflash: it's something advanced armies don't do.

Dirty tricks belong to people who photoshop a sea cruiser in a way a 3rd grader would do better, and claim it got hit by a bomb.
Dirty tricks belong to people that hide the fact that their own men have died just to try and pull some pathetic moral rising propoganda.
Dirty tricks belong to people who says "Syria and Iran do not support us!!!!" and then ends up with the IDF finding Iranian RPG's and Syrian missiles in their raids on the Hizbollah.

The IDF, IAF, or the Israeli Navy does not need to play and kind whatsoever of dirty tricks just to make itself look skilled. The Israeli army is not a pitiful terror organization.


Don't use the word kid. Your people killed too many already.
Well then don't use the word "Man", cause your men put kids before them as human shields.
And besides, someone with such pathetic claims such as you deserves to be called a kid.
IDF fakes raids and uses training fields to do that, IDF plants AK's just to make it look like a raid was efficiant, civilians don't accept missiles being fired from their homes (but it happens anyway?).. What's next? The entire war on Iraq videos are Steven Speilberg's work?

[Appaloosa]

I agree HOLLIS, but Hezbollah's rocket attacks are pretty much ineffective,the missile to Kill ratio is extremely low,why use up your whole resources, and have pretty shyt results,to me it looks more like Hezbollah are not being methodical in their attacks, why not organise a huge cross border raid on a settlement and slaughter everyone in it?.....They have the manpower, and the will to do it, it seems strange that using unguided rockets roughly aimed at an urban area in the sheer hope that one missile out of hundreds hits and kills an Israeli citizen seems really bizarre, when they can infiltrate into Israel, set up a cell, and take out an entire supermarket.......there's also a distinct lack of "suicide bombers" in human waves attacking Israeli assets, unlike some of the other Terrorist groups in that region.....
Where is AQ in all of this, was it not their intention to get rid of the zionists a well, isn't the Lebanon situation an ideal time for them to show themselves.

This is why I believe there's deeper political undertones going on here,didn't anyone find it surprising that the US will begin to train the Lebanese Military,when a ceasefire is in place,and a MNF team on the ground,doesn't this place a US Military presence even closer to Syria,again, who will win the contracts for the reconstruction of Lebanon,and who will provide the Security there.....

Watch this space, I'm willing to bet that Blackwater already have a package drawn up, and will deploy to Lebanon within the next Quarter,to provide security and PSD for the reconstruction teams.......


argyll you know i guess that Navy Seals have trained Lebanese frogmen.

Some good military diplomacy was there for US but now...........

Also the SBS was about to train them but was cancelled and Royal Marines did it.

[john_titor_my]

This is bull crap.Hezbollah fires from roofs these rockets are mostly 122mm and can launch from buildings.If you have so much as an RPG-7 in your home it will be targated by the mighty IAF.

We Jews have been pushed around along time...As my people said after the Holocaust "Never again" we will hit back and we will not be pushed around any more!

Good lucks fellas..u gonna need it.

[Decebalus]

Who says AK's weren't implented by the IDF? Common sense says so.
The IDF needs to spread no propoganda unlike the Hizbollah, that never was it's policy.

This is BS. Every army in the world in the history of armed conflict tried to spread and use propaganda.
Kind of like saying politicians don't lie.:roll:

And lets say that what you stated is true. (Even though it clearly isn't). Why did the IDF hacked the Hezbolah tv station and plant propaganda?

[Appaloosa]

Who says AK's weren't implented by the IDF? Common sense says so.
The IDF needs to spread no propoganda unlike the Hizbollah, that never was it's policy.

I don't know if I'd accept missiles being fired from my house if I was a Lebaneese civilian, but obviously enough - they allow it.
Don't you think their obvious support in Nasralla and Hizbollah shows enough proof of that? I mean, people who put pictures of Nasralla and idolize him in such a way, are bound to accept his will of using them as a human shield. Hell, they'd send themselves to a suicide bombing missions if he would've just asked.

And yea, I do say IDF isn't using any dirty tricks as of today on the media. What's wrong? Is that something SO unnatural? Well newsflash: it's something advanced armies don't do.

Dirty tricks belong to people who photoshop a sea cruiser in a way a 3rd grader would do better, and claim it got hit by a bomb.
Dirty tricks belong to people that hide the fact that their own men have died just to try and pull some pathetic moral rising propoganda.
Dirty tricks belong to people who says "Syria and Iran do not support us!!!!" and then ends up with the IDF finding Iranian RPG's and Syrian missiles in their raids on the Hizbollah.

The IDF, IAF, or the Israeli Navy does not need to play and kind whatsoever of dirty tricks just to make itself look skilled. The Israeli army is not a pitiful terror organization.



Well then don't use the word "Man", cause your men put kids before them as human shields.
And besides, someone with such pathetic claims such as you deserves to be called a kid.
What's next? The entire war on Iraq videos are Steven Speilberg's work?



The Lebanese civilian support to Nasrallah: Rate it before Israeli bombings and after Israeli bombings to see some clear things that Israeli actions made him a major figure to Lebanese and Europeans. Yes just read the European papers calling the man serious ,determined etc. BTW they don't call him terrorist. Ring any bells?

[HOLLiS]

Watch this space, I'm willing to bet that Blackwater already have a package drawn up, and will deploy to Lebanon within the next Quarter,to provide security and PSD for the reconstruction teams.......

I would not be surprised. One aspect of this even has been well published, Israel has enjoyed unprecidented global support. Seems only Syria and Iran has been a voice unto themselves condmening Israel.

[Appaloosa]

I would not be surprised. One aspect of this even has been well published, Israel has enjoyed unprecidented global support. Seems only Syria and Iran has been a voice unto themselves condmening Israel.


You live in planet Earth right?:)

[Godspeed-]

This is BS. Every army in the world in the history of armed conflict tried to spread and use propaganda.
Kind of like saying politicians don't lie.:roll:

And lets say that what you stated is true. (Even though it clearly isn't). Why did the IDF hacked the Hezbolah tv station and plant propaganda?

What propoganda was shown there? A picture of Nasralla with an aiming cross on his face? An explenation that Nasralla is leading his country into doom and destruction? An effort to enrich their feeble minds into stop being Nasralla's human shields? WOW! Some hardcore propoganda material right here.

And if anything I say seems (clearly enough) to be false, how about you address it, instead of labeling it as "what you stated" ?

[john_titor_my]

What propoganda was shown there? A picture of Nasralla with an aiming cross on his face? An explenation that Nasralla is leading his country into doom and destruction? An effort to enrich their feeble minds into stop being Nasralla's human shields? WOW! Some hardcore propoganda material right here.

If Nasrallah being captured soon, the bombing over civillian buildings will still continue. This is an EPIC BATTLE. Right?

[Godspeed-]

The Lebanese civilian support to Nasrallah: Rate it before Israeli bombings and after Israeli bombings to see some clear things that Israeli actions made him a major figure to Lebanese and Europeans. Yes just read the European papers calling the man serious ,determined etc. BTW they don't call him terrorist. Ring any bells?

Are you trying to make yourself look dumb, or is this just the routinal way propoganda by your side works?

The Lebanese folks have had no reason to show obvious support for Nasralla before the "war" has started, becaue Israel was not in an actual conflict with the Hizbollah. Yet they sure did support him. Proof? Why are there even Hizbollah parliament men? Why is the Hizbollah still a part of Lebanon for 6 years? Couldn't they realise that Hizbollah means trouble since the last convlict in 1997-2000?

I guess they also rushed in the local painting shops to buy pictures of Nasralla to put in their houses, while all the fighting is occuring, right? Yea! That makes lots of sense! They've started all the blindless support ONLY when the little "war" started.
Oh boy, smart things are being said here.


If Nasrallah being captured soon, the bombing over civillian buildings will still continue. This is an EPIC BATTLE. Right?
As long as Hizbollah's main man will be either dead or captured, the chances for Hizbollah to keep firing missiles at Israel is critically low, and therefore the IDF and IAF will have no reason to attack the Hizbollah any more.

If the Hizbollah will still blindlessly shoot missiles at random Israeli cities, Lebanese innocents will only die if they will be used AGAIN as human shields by the Hizbollah.

[Mr. Nielsen]

I agree HOLLIS, but Hezbollah's rocket attacks are pretty much ineffective,the missile to Kill ratio is extremely low,why use up your whole resources, and have pretty shyt results,to me it looks more like Hezbollah are not being methodical in their attacks, why not organise a huge cross border raid on a settlement and slaughter everyone in it?
I fully agree that the Hezbollah rocket attacks are in no way an effective weapon. But it has a great psykological impact, terrorizing the people of northern Israel to take shelters (without which casualties would have been higher). And it brings a cost to the israelis that would otherwise not have been there.

And the real goal with them might be to simply show that we are still in the game, we are not defeated as Olmer claims. Cross border raids would have terrorized a much lesser area, and question is how many men does Hezbollah have that could undertakes such raids with a good chance of succes, compared to people that can launch a rocket and then hide?

As to the time after, and US economic interests ala Iraq, I'm a bit sceptical since this all popped up very fast and seem to take the US by surprise. But let's see what's happens when the fighting is over

[Appaloosa]

[quote=Godspeed-]Are you trying to make yourself look dumb, or is this just the routinal way propoganda by your side works?

The Lebanese folks have had no reason to show obvious support for Nasralla before the "war" has started, becaue Israel was not in an actual conflict with the Hizbollah. Yet they sure did support him. Proof? Why are there even Hizbollah parliament men? Why is the Hizbollah still a part of Lebanon for 6 years? Couldn't they realise that Hizbollah means trouble since the last convlict in 1997-2000?

I guess they also rushed in the local painting shops to buy pictures of Nasralla to put in their houses, while all the fighting is occuring, right? Yea! That makes lots of sense! They've started all the blindless support ONLY when the little "war" started.
Oh boy, smart things are being said here.



When a group has an elected member in a democratic parliament this group isn't considered by Europeans as a terrorist group.

Do you accept the fact that when a peace plan will came Hezis will be a part of it? If they are terrorists they should be get kicked out. Will Israel accept their part? You don't have to speak with them but others will. I would like your views for this.

[Godspeed-]

It's kinda inaccurate calling the Hizbollah's rockets ineffective. Sure, by military standarts they are awfully ineffective..

..But the Hizbollah is not an army, it's a terror organization, let's not forget that.
These missiles are incredibly effective to their goals - which are to randomly kill anyone, and cause a big fear effect in the opposite side.
For example just today the Hizbollah have killed three arabs (muslims) who live in Israel - a mother and her two daughters.
Two days ago they have killed three arabs (muslims) that live in israel aswell - three 17 year old friends.

Their rockets do fulfill exactly what their goal is - random killing.

[Decebalus]

And if anything I say seems (clearly enough) to be false, how about you address it, instead of labeling it as "what you stated" ?

You stated that the Israeli army does not use propaganda. That is false, because everybody uses propagandra. If you can't see how the hacking of the TV station and adding pictures of dead enemy soldiers isn't propaganda, then I don't know what to say. When they say they wiped out 50% of Hezbolah's capability, that is propaganda. Why? Because nobody know for sure how many rockets they wiped out, that is just a number they estimated and they said that as propaganda. Stating propaganda doesn't mean stating lies. They can be true but the way they are used, makes them propaganda.
Israel trying to cover their soldier's deaths and pointing out the enemy's deaths is also a sort of propaganda.

Using propaganda is normal, but denying it is arrogant.

Here's the definition of propaganda if you don't get it:

The systematic propagation of a doctrine or cause or of information reflecting the views and interests of those advocating such a doctrine or cause.

[Godspeed-]

When a group has an elected member in a democratic parliament this group isn't considered by Europeans as a terrorist group.

Do you accept the fact that when a peace plan will came Hezis will be a part of it? If they are terrorists they should be get kicked out. Will Israel accept their part? You don't have to speak with them but others will. I would like your views for this.

When a group has elected a member for taking part in their own "democratic" (pfft) parliament, it shows they support it. Which is exactly what I've said, and you denied. Now you change your opinion on it, weird. I'm not sure of who exactly don't recognize the Hizbollah as a terror group, but so what if the Europeans don't? The UN does, including the US, and the UK, and dont forget Germany, and Australia - so if countries like France decide to call them Freedom Fighters or whatever (out of pure political interests IMO, mind you) it doesn't really say that much to be honest.

I don't accept the latter fact of yours to be completley honest. For all I can see for now, the Hizbollah will not accept to any kind of peace effort if it isn't serving ALL of their absurd interests, such as trading prisoners in a ratio of 1000 to 1, or the alike.
In my eyes, a peace condition could be maintained only with the Lebanese government part which is pretty sane compared to the Hizbollah. The only way to maintain a truely fair peace plan is to have the Lebanese government admit the Hizbollah is nothing but trouble for their country, and just ban them out of every decision making spot they currently are in - that includes not allowing them to use innocent civilians as launch pods. :)


You stated that the Israeli army does not use propaganda. That is false, because everybody uses propagandra. If you can't see how the hacking of the TV station and adding pictures of dead enemy soldiers isn't propaganda, then I don't know what to say. When they say they wiped out 50% of Hezbolah's capability, that is propaganda. Why? Because nobody know for sure how many rockets they wiped out, that is just a number they estimated and they said that as propaganda. Stating propaganda doesn't mean stating lies. They can be true but the way they are used, makes them propaganda.
Israel trying to cover their soldier's deaths and pointing out the enemy's deaths is also a sort of propaganda.


Hacking the TV station and showing dead body pictures will be propoganda if the following text would've been something along the lines of "WE OBLITERATED THE MUSLIM THREAT! WE HAVE CRUSHED YOUR ALREADY ROTTEN LOUSY DEFENCE FORCES - WE ARE ALOT STRONGER! BLAH BLAH BLAH!" - but no, it was followed by a speech that convinces them to stop their support in the Hizbollah, and warn them a fair warning that their fate is the same if they will keep supporting them.
About the 50% of the missile bank destroyed - yes, that wasn't correct, but it wasn't meant to be said as something to cheer anyone up. It was a pure Intelligence mistake. They ARE humans after all, and this was just an error.
When saying 50% of them are destroyed after recieving such info from the Intel, it doesn't count as false propoganda or dirty tricks - it counts as an error.
Unlike picking up a used up shell from the street claiming it to be taken out of an israeli soldier in mid-combat.. or editing a sea cruiser ship saying it has been destroyed.. or hiding their own casualties. I could go on for hours, but I hope you see the difference between the "50%" mistake and their claims.

[Decebalus]

.But the Hizbollah is not an army, it's a terror organization, let's not forget that.
These missiles are incredibly effective to their goals - which are to randomly kill anyone, and cause a big fear effect in the opposite side.
For example just today the Hizbollah have killed three arabs (muslims) who live in Israel - a mother and her two daughters.
Two days ago they have killed three arabs (muslims) that live in israel aswell - three 17 year old friends.

1. Hezbollah is not a terror organization in this conflict. You may call them whatever but they fit the definition of a guerilla, more than a terror organization. Sure it terrorizes civilians, what war on their back yard doesn't? But so does the IDF, they also terrorize civilians with their mistakes, accidents, and civilian bombings. If you they are a terror organization so was the VC, so were the partisans in WW2, and any other resistance movement.

These missiles are incredibly effective to their goals - which are to randomly kill anyone, and cause a big fear effect in the opposite side.

If you know history, the rockets were made for the role of artilery barage. Blaming Hezbolah for using such a weapon is stupid, because they have no other accurate weapons they can use. Is not like they have a choice. When you fight you use what you have.

Whats the difference between Israel's accidental killings other that they are called "accidents"?

[kosse]

When a group has an elected member in a democratic parliament this group isn't considered by Europeans as a terrorist group.

Sir, you are an idiot. Having a political wing does not exclude terrorism. Now if these military actions (firing rockets at civilians) were decided in lebanese parliament correct term might not be terrorism - we would be talking about war crimes. Hizbollah's actions at present are merely terrorism.

[Godspeed-]

1. Hezbollah is not a terror organization in this conflict. You may call them whatever but they fit the definition of a guerilla, more than a terror organization. Sure it terrorizes civilians, what war on their back yard doesn't? But so does the IDF, they also terrorize civilians with their mistakes, accidents, and civilian bombings. If you they are a terror organization so was the VC, so were the partisans in WW2, and any other resistance movement.



If you know history, the rockets were made for the role of artilery barage. Blaming Hezbolah for using such a weapon is stupid, because they have no other accurate weapons they can use. Is not like they have a choice. When you fight you use what you have.

Whats the difference between Israel's accidental killings other that they are called "accidents"?

The difference, maybe, is the fact that they AIM at civilians, while the Israeli army's mistakes are actual mistakes? What, is that SO well hidden by the global media, or are you people just plain braindead?
Again, when the IDF or IAF kills innocents it's 99% due to the fact the Hizbollah is using their blind trust to use them as a human shield. I won't repeat that again.

And I wasn't argueing about the missile purpose of what the Hizbollah are using, I was just stating that it's efficiant to their goals.

[Atlantic Friend]

This looks to me like they instead use the population not as a source of support, but as a tool to achieve their goal by means of pressuring the enemy to stop fighting. A reverse war - win by losing. Draw the fire of your enemy upon the civilians, be ready with banners, signs, people who speak the language of the press so you can give tours of the damage - and then try to achieve a political victory by displaying all the death.

It sure is part of the Hezbollah's PR campaign. But this isn't exactly new either - by and large, this tactic was used by the VC in Vietnam against both the French and the Americans. Force the other side to make mistakes, force the other side to lose hearts and minds by luring him into attacking neutral or friendly civilians...

And it is rather distrubing that Israel seems to be playing to their hand, with the generalized destruction of the infrastructures and economy of Lebanon - a country in which the United States and France invested a lot politically to pry it free from Syrian influence, and which used to be the most Westernized country of the Near-East. Seriously, what is Isrel currently gaining, what has Irsael gained from these last weeks' aerail campaign ?

[kosse]

1. Hezbollah is not a terror organization in this conflict. You may call them whatever but they fit the definition of a guerilla, more than a terror organization. Sure it terrorizes civilians, what war on their back yard doesn't? But so does the IDF, they also terrorize civilians with their mistakes, accidents, and civilian bombings. If you they are a terror organization so was the VC, so were the partisans in WW2, and any other resistance movement.
Bull****. They had their own territory to govern and yet they still started the recent aggression. There is a huge difference between the actions of IDF and Hizbollah. Hizbollah makes no difference between civilian and soldier - both are as good targets. IDF might attack civilians too if they are on the way but the basic principles are totally different.



If you know history, the rockets were made for the role of artilery barage. Blaming Hezbolah for using such a weapon is stupid, because they have no other accurate weapons they can use.

Using rockets is not stupid but the way they are used is beyond all reasonable limits. Hizbollah attacks almost purely civilian installations.


Is not like they have a choice. When you fight you use what you have.
Sure they have choice. Start waging their war against israeli soldiers. 90% of their efforts seem to be aimed at killing civilians. They are no better than suicide bombers at Gaza.

[HOLLiS]

You live in planet Earth right?:)

Well let see Can I blame Arutz Seven or JP? originally when Israel took action even the Saudis... while not mentioning Hez by name critised them. Normally it is all the countries in the world except a few, that with not hesitate to condemn Israel. :roll:

[Godspeed-]

This looks to me like they instead use the population not as a source of support, but as a tool to achieve their goal by means of pressuring the enemy to stop fighting. A reverse war - win by losing. Draw the fire of your enemy upon the civilians, be ready with banners, signs, people who speak the language of the press so you can give tours of the damage - and then try to achieve a political victory by displaying all the death.
BULLSEYE.
VERY well said.

[Asheren]

Appaloosa you are aware where that picture was teaken and under what circumstances.

Kiryat Shmona has been under constant bombardment from South Lebanon since the first day of the conflict. It was a ghost town, explained Shelly. There was not a single person on the streets and all the businesses were closed. The residents who had friends, family or money for alternate housing out of missile range had left, leaving behind the few who had neither the funds nor connections that would allow them to escape the missiles crashing and booming on their town day and night. The noise was terrifying, people were dying outside, the kids were scared out of their minds and they had been told over and over that some man named Nasrallah was responsible for their having to cower underground for days on end.

By accident i have a very good memmory and remmeber similiar photo of kids doing similiar thing but that children were from "other" side of baricade. If i am correct that photo was even here on MP.net. Only diffrence is that Israeli aren't moraly corrupted enough to shove it with pistures their childrens anywhere they can for propaganda purposes. At first i tought it was same picture and planed to nominate you for retard of the month award but looking at your argumentation you still have a good chance to obtain it.

btw. I have question for our israeli memmbers is it true that your newspapers and TV avoid showing pictures of peoples and bodies in your country. I ecountered such statement few times here and there when i was investigating source of that pictures.

[Decebalus]

The difference, maybe, is the fact that they AIM at civilians, while the Israeli army's mistakes are actual mistakes? What, is that SO well hidden by the global media, or are you people just plain braindead?
Again, when the IDF or IAF kills innocents it's 99% due to the fact the Hizbollah is using their blind trust to use them as a human shield. I won't repeat that again.

And I wasn't argueing about the missile purpose of what the Hizbollah are using, I was just stating that it's efficiant to their goals.

I think this place brings together the idiots of the world who can't back up their own damn statements.
Is it sooo hard?

Again, when the IDF or IAF kills innocents it's 99% due to the fact the Hizbollah is using their blind trust to use them as a human shield. I won't repeat that again.
24 cases were documented and there were no Hezbolah around. Why was the lighthouse bombed, was Hezbolah around it? Why was the Christian neighborhood bombed? We know for a fact Hezbolah weren't present there. Why were trucks with red crosses on them bombed? Why was a UN vehicle bombed AFTER the attack on the UN compound?
Are you saying Hezbolah was present at all those locations?
And most importantly, WHY was the power plant bombed? Was Hezbolah using the electricity to their advantage somehow?

Israeli army's mistakes are actual mistakes?

Yes because they say "mistake"? You seem to blindly take everybody's words for it.
Hezbolah can also say mistakes. They can claim they were targeting military targets.

Sure they have choice. Start waging their war against israeli soldiers. 90% of their efforts seem to be aimed at killing civilians. They are no better than suicide bombers at Gaza.

You sir are clearly an idiot. If you do you math, you prove youself wrong.

Lets see: Israel claims 78 dead of which 45 are soldiers. www.cnn.com
So 33 out of 78 are civilian deaths. Thats about 42% civilian deaths and 58% military deaths.

Now lets look at the Lebanon side.
683 Civilian deaths. Israel claims to have killed 300 Hezbolah fighters. Hezbolah denies, but lets say Israel was right. www.cnn.com
So out of 983, a little less than 70% are civilian deaths. The rest are Hezbolah death IF Israel is right.

Now you do the comparison.

Your statements do not make sense, they are biased, and you are ignoring the facts. And I didn't even take into calculations the injured and economical damage.
So lets start with what we know instead of making blind assumptions.
I want to agree with you, but numbers disagree.

[Clarsachier]

Seconds after the air raid siren fell silent, it came. A deep rumble shook windows and doors and made the earth tremble. This was nothing like the familiar crump of a Katyusha rocket.

At the weekend Hizbullah fired for the first time what it calls a Khaibar missile into Israel, creating a deep crater and setting fire to woodland outside Nazareth. According to reports in the Israeli media, the shell was packed with 100 kilogrammes of explosives. The missile can apparently reach up to 90 kilometres; given that Nazareth is only a third of that distance from the border, it was probably fired from deep inside Lebanon.

I have been living within range of Hizbullah's rockets for two weeks but this is the first time I have felt unnerved. You have to be very unlucky to be killed by a Katyusha if you are inside your home. Its lethal effects are usually felt by victims caught out in the open, where there is no protection from the spray of shrapnel. That partly explains the small number of Israeli civilians killed by the 2,500 rockets, most of them Katyushas, which have landed so far. (In addition, though mostly unreported, Hizbullah appears to have been aiming a substantial proportion of its rockets at military installations hidden in the Galilee's hills, including two close by Nazareth.)

But the Khaibar is different. The blast from 100 kilogrammes of explosives can tear away the protection of walls, exposing anyone inside to its destructive force. For the first time I have a small insight into what it must be like living in Lebanon under the Israeli bombardment, of what terror the 50 or more civilians sheltering in a basement in Qana on Sunday morning must have felt as they heard the first blasts of the missiles that were about to kill them.

Hizbullah's launching of more fearsome weapons, however, does not strengthen my resolve, as it does most Israeli Jews, that Lebanon should be hit harder. It makes me -- and, according to polls, a majority of Israel's Arab citizens -- certain that if anyone should be held to account for this cruel, senseless war, and if only one side should be blamed for abusing the rules of such a war, then Israel not Hizbullah must be found at fault.

That Khaibar rocket, and the many others presumably in Hizbullah's arsenal, could have been fired at any time in more than two weeks of fighting, as Lebanon burned under the onslaught from Israeli warplanes and as the death toll of Lebanese civilians climbed from the dozens into the hundreds. But it wasn't. For more than a fortnight Hizbullah held off from using the most terrifying weapons in its possession (assuming it doesn't have worse), just as earlier it held off for days before turning its fire on Israel's northern economic hub of Haifa.

Hizbullah's raid across the border on 12 July, its capture of two Israeli soldiers and its killing of three more, was an extreme provocation, although too often observers overlook Israel's many equal provocations since its withdrawal from South Lebanon in May 2000, from its repeated violations of Lebanese airspace to its shooting of Lebanese civilians from border observation posts.

But since that cross-border operation, Israel has flouted the rules of war with far greater abandon than Hizbullah, as the record of war shows.

Let's not forget that, as Israel bombed Lebanon's roads, bridges, airport and power stations, Hizbullah was demanding a prisoner swap to secure the release of a handful of Lebanese detainees and some of the thousands of Palestinians in Israel's jails, many of them held without trial, in return for the two soldiers. It also wants back from Israel a small corridor of land, known as the Shebaa Farms, it considers Lebanese, as well as maps of minefields planted in South Lebanon by Israel during its occupation.

Let's not forget that, as Israeli "surgical" strikes tore down residential buildings in apparent disregard for whether they were inhabited by civilians or fighters, or shot at convoys of fleeing Lebanese after leaflet drops had told them to leave their villages, Hizbullah was firing only at Israel's border areas, at towns like Nahariya and Kiryat Shemona, where the residents had been warned of what was coming and had either fled to safety or were well protected in underground bunkers.

Let's not forget that Hizbullah paused five days, while Israel wrecked Lebanon with aerial bombardment, fulfilling its promise to "turn the clock back 20 years", before raining down its rockets on Haifa. Hizbullah leader Hassan Nasrallah repeatedly warned that Israel's third largest city would be attacked if the Israeli offensive on Lebanon continued.

And finally let's not forget that Hizbullah waited more than two weeks, a time in which Israel made refugees of hundreds of thousands of Lebanese in the country's south, including the large Shia community to which Hizbullah's fighters belong, before firing that first Khaibar missile into Israel. The rocket was launched following a speech from Nasrallah in which he warned that a new, harsher phase of the conflict "is being forced upon us" by Israel.

None of this behaviour fits with the picture we are being sold of Nasrallah as a religious fanatic hell bent on jihad against Israel and the West. Rather, it suggests that Nasrallah is a politician, even if an Islamic one, and the leader of a movement ready to negotiate and compromise on its agenda -- or to act "responsibly and flexibly" as Nasrallah put it in another recent speech.

Following reports in the American media about a plan prepared by Israel at least a year ago to strike against Lebanon, Israel, not Hizbullah, looks like the side set on the path of premeditated war.

Equally, claims that Hizbullah's leadership amassed its arsenal of weapons with the intention of destroying the nuclear-armed State of Israel sound less than plausible. Far more likely, Hizbullah believed its hoard of rockets would act as a deterrent, even if an inadequate one, against repeated Israeli aggression. Hizbullah appears to be trying to create a "balance of terror", presumably in the hope -- forlorn though it probably is -- of dissuading Israel from occupying Lebanon once more.

This weekend Nasrallah again warned Israel that if it continued attacking Lebanon he would strike "beyond Haifa" with even more powerful rockets -- a promise he most probably will feel forced to honour given the new massacre at Qana.

Nasrallah could have lashed out with his Khaibar missiles from day one. Before Israel's ground invasion a few days ago, when Hizbullah rocket launchers were pushed northwards, it is possible these missiles could have reached Tel Aviv. But, whatever we are being told, destroying Israel -- or even terrorising it -- does not seem to be Nasrallah's aim. Maybe when he says he wants to negotiate, he really means it. Maybe the problem isn't fanatical Hizbullah, but the unilateral arrogance of Israel.

* The writer is a journalist based in Nazareth, Israel. His book Blood and Religion: Unmasking the Jewish and Democratic State , about the second Intifada, is just published.

[HOLLiS]

* The writer is a journalist based in Nazareth, Israel. His book Blood and Religion: Unmasking the Jewish and Democratic State , about the second Intifada, is just published.

After all of that, you ask me previously if you supported Hezbullah? Obviously you seek the doom of Israel as some demon in the ME.

[Godspeed-]

You sir are clearly an idiot. If you do you math, you prove youself wrong.
I'd just like to take in mind this pharse only, cause the rest is just BS you spew out in a continuous loop while ignoring the hurting (to your ears and eyes) truth.

Allright, lets do the math:

So actually by your means, the Israeli army is an organization of nazi war criminals banded together, whose only purpose is to kill as many civilians, innocent old ladies, and basically everyone besides the one who really suppose to get hit, as it can?

Well that's obvious, but ofcourse, the reason Lebanon is not completley annihilated by now is the fact that the Israeli army lacks in tactical atomic weaponry, long range warbombers, nuclear submarines, sea cruisers, and other kinds of heavy weapons. I mean, so what if Israel have succesfully defeated any of the arab threats that declared war on it some years ago, including Iraq, Syria, Egypt and Jordan all at once.. That doesn't mean Israel are capable of destroying Lebanon to pieces.. nope.

Anyway, your point makes alot of sense, yessiree it sure does.
I mean it's pretty obvious that Israel just loves the whole pressure from the US, Europe and the UN gives it when innocents die, and everybody knows that when innocent civilians die, Hizbollah's rockets magically dissapear. So basically every Israeli interest, politic or militant, is being solved when innocent people are dying!

THAT'S GENIUS! YOU sir, have totally changed my mind!

Sarcasm off, I think to myself what would you say now - maybe you'll claim that the IDF\IAF aren't capable of wiping out Lebanon to dust? Or maybe they are just scared to do so?

"Hezbolah can also say mistakes. They can claim they were targeting military targets." - Seriously, if you can't see the difference than I'm thankfull for proving me how narrowminded and unintelligent terror supporters around the world are.

By the way, Hizbollah and the Lebanese government - both declined the peace plan that was patched up by the US and France. Exactly as I said they will, earlier :)
Lebanese government official claimed, and I quote, "it's so fair for the Israelies that it's unfair to us" - Hmm.. makes you wonder if all of this isn't happening just out of random hate. Anyhow, he claims, that it's extremely unfair that Israeil will be able to tolerate in any kind of way, if the Hizbollah will strike it (he was speaking about the part of the agreement which have said that if Israel will get attacked, its it's earned right to retaliate back)
Israel accepted the agreement by the way.


Clarsachier, don't even start about Israeli arabs. It's not enough that they are able to live in Israel with no social problems whatsoever, and get whole cities and whatnot (ever seen a single Israeli citizen living only in a building of arabs? That usually ends up in murder or a lynch), they also use any kind of excuse to whine and complain about the "criminal" zionist Israeli government.
Not a while ago they have whined for not having an alarm system in a village that was hit by the Hizbollah, and after a 10 minute check - the truth came to light; there IS an alarm system in their village, it's just that nobody in that village even cares enough to operate it.

"Let's not forget that Hizbullah paused five days" - Umm... what on earth are you talking about? The highest ammount of time the Hizbollah havn't fired at Israeli cities is 18 hours. I have no clue who's the hatred filled journalist which have claimed the Hizbollah have stopped for 5 days, but whoever is responsible for that highly amusing remark should lose his job.
That being said, and after reading that bit, I can't take much of your speech in a serious way.

[Appaloosa]

Sir, you are an idiot. Having a political wing does not exclude terrorism. Now if these military actions (firing rockets at civilians) were decided in lebanese parliament correct term might not be terrorism - we would be talking about war crimes. Hizbollah's actions at present are merely terrorism.


Rockets to civilians is a terrorist tactic but remember the terrorist Fatah tactics of the 70s with bombings and hijackings. Didn't the international community recognised them as a peace factor later?


Having a political wing in a democratic govt means that you show your future political statement about what system do you want to follow after you finish what are you doing now. If you had the mind you would know that every guerilla movement passes a period of using terrorist tactics. It's not a gentlemen's contest.


Sir you are a jackass

[Appaloosa]

For those who want to know about how it started in Lebanon read the Israeli journalist Livia Rokach's book based on the Sharet diary. Israel tried to defame her but is the doughter of an Israeli minister. She was found dead in her hotel in Rome as far as i know- if anyone has more details is welcomed.



http://chss.montclair.edu/english/furr/essays/rokach.html

[Asheren]

Rockets to civilians is a terrorist tactic but remember the terrorist Fatah tactics of the 70s with bombings and hijackings. Didn't the international community recognised them as a peace factor later?


Having a political wing in a democratic govt means that you show your future political statement about what system do you want to follow after you finish what are you doing now. If you had the mind you would know that every guerilla movement passes a period of using terrorist tactics. It's not a gentlemen's contest.


Sir you are a jackass

No sir! You are real jackass sir! Can i go blow up you house and kill your family sir!? I need to do it because its my terrorism period and i must blow up your house soo i might be peace factor in future. Ofourse i might decide that blowing up houses is better but you must let me bomb s..t out of you because you will never be sure that i can't became a peace factor.

[Appaloosa]

No sir! You are real jackass sir! Can i go blow up you house and kill your family sir!? I need to do it because its my terrorism period and i must blow up your house soo i might be peace factor in future. Ofourse i might decide that blowing up houses is better but you must let me bomb s..t out of you because you will never be sure that i can't became a peace factor.


I agree with you that is terrorism and someone should use other tactics but we don't live in paradise. I don't support it i just report it. Don't forget that a Jewish terrorist who killed an inocent UN mediator Count Bernadote in Palestine later became PM of Israel -Yitzak Shamir. Now you got it?


And since we speak abour rules and morality:


The Yesha Rabbinical Council [of Israel] announced in response to an IDF [Israel armed forces] attack in Kfar Qanna [in Lebanon] that "according to Jewish law, during a time of battle and war, there is no such term as 'innocents' of the enemy." “All of the discussions on Christian morality are weakening the spirit of the army and the nation and are costing us in the blood of our soldiers and civilians," the statement said.



http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-3283720,00.html

[2Sheds_Jackson]

Let's snap this back on topic please. If it keeps spinning off into tinfoil hat territory and personal insults etc. I'm just gonna lock this because it seems to have run it's course.

[Asheren]

Yes but its certainly not a fact that alow to justify any sort of terror acts no mater who the terrorist is. I understand what you are saying but doesn't matter who they might be in the furture trrorists must be hunted down. If they decide to no longer perform terror acts and turn to politic and they are able to make aggrement that would be accepted by both sides then we can talk.

Hmm i must say its quite intresting statement but islamic extremists offen used similiar statements without christian morality part. Also it proves that no side is saint in this war. I think its main problem with our view on ME no matter who we support. Its flawed because we are tied to western(chrisitan based) morality.

I must excuse you that i tought you are some sort of jew hater trying to wage propaganda war on MP.net.(i hope you aren't cos here sooner or later anyone forget himself) My insults towards you were a way to provoke you to show more radical attitude. Still i think that many of your arguments are well lets say flawed logicaly.

[Godspeed-]

The main arguement here is flawed..
Not only do the Hizbollah DO shoot from civilian populated areas, they do it from insides houses. There are also launchers which are getting used from within small trucks that eventually park in civilian houses.

So main point being - the Hizbollah criminally involves civilians in any way possible to imagine.

I don't know what's worse, the fact that Hizbollah shoots at Israeli civilians who did nothing at all to the Lebanese people, or the fact that the Hizbollah shoots FROM Lebanese people who did nothing bad to the Hizbollah, and by that, automatically embedding them in the conflict.

[HOLLiS]

The main arguement here is flawed..
Not only do the Hizbollah DO shoot from civilian populated areas, they do it from insides houses. There are also launchers which are getting used from within small trucks that eventually park in civilian houses.

So main point being - the Hizbollah criminally involves civilians in any way possible to imagine.

I should have saved the Link, the Human rights commission (of somebodies,,, I forgot) had Hezbullah down for serious war crimes, Intentionally shooting indiscriminately into Civilian areas, drawing civilians in to conflict (Using them as Shields).

[Beaufort]

I should have saved the Link, the Human rights commission (of somebodies,,, I forgot) had Hezbullah down for serious war crimes, Intentionally shooting indiscriminately into Civilian areas, drawing civilians in to conflict (Using them as Shields).

http://www.jpost.com/servlet/Satellite?cid=1154525810863&pagename=JPost%2FJPArticle%2FShowFull

[Secret Squirrel]

The organization's Web site recognized that northern Israel had come to a virtual standstill because of Hizbullah's rockets, which were "exacting an enormous human and economic toll."

"Under international humanitarian law - also known as the laws of war - parties to an armed conflict must not make the civilian population the object of attack, or fire indiscriminately into civilian areas. Nor can they launch attacks that they know will cause incidental loss of civilian life, injury to civilians or damage to civilian objects that exceeds the concrete and direct military advantage anticipated. Such attacks constitute war crimes," the site explained.
http://www.jpost.com/servlet/Satellite?cid=1154525810863&pagename=JPost%2FJPArticle%2FShowFull

The Yesha Rabbinical Council [of Israel] announced in response to an IDF [Israel armed forces] attack in Kfar Qanna [in Lebanon] that "according to Jewish law, during a time of battle and war, there is no such term as 'innocents' of the enemy." “All of the discussions on Christian morality are weakening the spirit of the army and the nation and are costing us in the blood of our soldiers and civilians," the statement said.
http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-3283720,00.html

interesting...

[Beaufort]

http://www.jpost.com/servlet/Satellite?cid=1154525810863&pagename=JPost%2FJPArticle%2FShowFull


http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-3283720,00.html

interesting...

And your point is?


Our extremists do a lot of talking while their's actually act out?

[Kaplanr]

To me the solution is very obvious. Short of making permanent refugees of the South Lebanese population and totally obliterating the landscape, there's no "good" or "moral" way to defeat Hezbulloh.

You're reduced to being more Hizb. than Hizb. Maybe we should start bulldozing the empty towns.

[Beaufort]

To me the solution is very obvious. Short of making permanent refugees of the South Lebanese population and totally obliterating the landscape, there's no "good" or "moral" way to defeat Hezbulloh.

You're reduced to being more Hizb. than Hizb. Maybe we should start bulldozing the empty towns.

I sure wish we would use 'Daisy Cutters' (BLU-82s) as the Americhans did in Afghanistan.

http://www.september11news.com/Nov6_daisycutter_bomber_graphic.gif

And do some real cleaning out before sending our men inside.

[Godspeed-]

You lot are saying that the Hizbollah is some kind of a holy freedom fighting organization which in this conflict, is acting completley logical and by rational behaviour, and not involving anyone who should'nt be involved (atleast on it's side)?
Well, I found this forum of some folks over there from Lebanon, which shows pretty damn obvious and concrete evidence for their furious hate towards the Hizbollah. I wonder why.
Hizbollah is seeming pretty hated for an organization that doesn't involve anyone.

http://www.lebanese-forces.org/vbullet/showthread.php?t=19510
http://www.lebanese-forces.org/vbullet/showthread.php?t=19400
http://www.lebanese-forces.org/vbullet/showthread.php?t=19552
http://www.lebanese-forces.org/vbullet/showthread.php?t=19539

Guess you're not allowed to show any kinds of proof in this forum unless it's wanted.

[Kaplanr]

You lot are saying that the Hizbollah is some kind of a holy freedom fighting organization which in this conflict, is acting completley logical and by rational behaviour, and not involving anyone who should'nt be involved (atleast on it's side)?
Well, I found this forum of some folks over there from Lebanon, which shows pretty damn obvious and concrete evidence for their furious hate towards the Hizbollah. I wonder why.
Hizbollah is seeming pretty hated for an organization that doesn't involve anyone.

http://www.lebanese-forces.org/vbullet/showthread.php?t=19510
http://www.lebanese-forces.org/vbullet/showthread.php?t=19400
http://www.lebanese-forces.org/vbullet/showthread.php?t=19552
http://www.lebanese-forces.org/vbullet/showthread.php?t=19539

Guess you're not allowed to show any kinds of proof in this forum unless it's wanted.

Qutoing Lebanese Forces on why Hizb. is hated is bringing the coals to Newcastle. It's like using a PETA site to proove raising beef is bad.

The probelm is the Lebanese want it both ways; we're too weak to disarm Hizb., don't blame us it's a militia and on the other hand they sit in the governmment yet maintain their own foreign relations and conduct their own aggression.

WHat Israel ought to do is withdraw, cease the air attacks and go after the source of Hizb.'s money and weapons. No one returns to South Lebanon and impose a complete air and sea blockade until the kidnapped soldiers are returned.

[Appaloosa]

To me the solution is very obvious. Short of making permanent refugees of the South Lebanese population and totally obliterating the landscape, there's no "good" or "moral" way to defeat Hezbulloh.

You're reduced to being more Hizb. than Hizb. Maybe we should start bulldozing the empty towns.


I have a better idea . Populate the ambandoned areas with Jewish settlers:)

[Appaloosa]

[quote=Godspeed-;1833848]You lot are saying that the Hizbollah is some kind of a holy freedom fighting organization which in this conflict, is acting completley logical and by rational behaviour, and not involving anyone who should'nt be involved (atleast on it's side)?



EU issues updated list of "terrorist organisations and persons" (updated 17.3.05


http://www.statewatch.org/news/2005/mar/06terrlists.htm



Anyone sees Hesbollah there?

[Argyll]

The main arguement here is flawed..
Not only do the Hizbollah DO shoot from civilian populated areas, they do it from insides houses. There are also launchers which are getting used from within small trucks that eventually park in civilian houses.

So main point being - the Hizbollah criminally involves civilians in any way possible to imagine.

I don't know what's worse, the fact that Hizbollah shoots at Israeli civilians who did nothing at all to the Lebanese people, or the fact that the Hizbollah shoots FROM Lebanese people who did nothing bad to the Hizbollah, and by that, automatically embedding them in the conflict.

How in the fcuk can you park a truck no matter how small inside a house?, maybe in a courtyard, but actually inside a house?
You would have to know a wall down and drive it in, to knock a wall down without shoring is pretty technical stuff if you don't want to risk the entire dwelling down.....
In that case then the building is not occupied, and isn't fit for habitation, you're giving off the impression that Hezbollah rock up to a house and set up the entire system and fire it off, whilst the family sit back and watch the Simpsons, firing a rocket from inside a building will wreck whatever is in it......

But does anyone care to explain the difference in a rocket being fired from a house and a sniper firing from a house, both are instruments of war are they not?, and how many times we have heard from both sides that they're engaged in a war...the Iraqi's used to place weapons platforms beside occupied dwellings also, they hid Scud Launchers in school yards etc, so it's not a new concept, so why act like this is a whole new revalation?

and what's with the remarks "You lot".....who is actually you lot, do you mean non Jews/Israeli's? if I didn't kow any better, I'd say this was possibly a bigoted or racist comment, but I'll give you the beneft of the doubt .

Why make an issue out of something that's old news, and old tactics, it's like you're trying to justify something?

[Decebalus]

To reply to Goodspeed, well you ignored each and every point I rasied. All you were talking about was theories that you came up with, and what if's.

So I won't even take you serious anymore.

Anyway, 10 reservists got killed today after rockets hit their base. I thought they were shooting at civilians only? What happened? oops they must have missed their "civilian target".

Your arguements are pathetic because they do not reflect what is happening on the ground.