Reshaping the Middle-East

[IraGlacialis]

I found this interesting visualization on the internet. It is a proposal made by Ralph Peters that reshapes the Mid-East with the purpose of alleviating tensions. The whole idea is that after the Ottoman Empire was broken up, the European nations divided up the land under unreasonable terms that factor (to a degree) into the violence in region today. This proposal would redraw borders to fit mainly along ethnic and cultural lines. Before you guys look at the map, be warned: If you live in a country labled in red, there is a good chance you will not like it (example: Israel and Turkey). Plus, I would like to point out that the map is purely theoretical. This is not some American conspiracy to sow discord and chaos in the Mid-East. At least I think so...
Opinions from you guys would be great.
I just hope the file loads up. I'm such a forum noob.

10657

Personally, I'm not sure sure about everything else right now, but I do know that I agree with the the idea of the Islamic Sacred State. The idea is kinda like Vatican City. I think it would be good to remove it from the full grasp of the Saudi royalty and Wahabbi fundamentalists. Possibly having it run by a coalition consisting of the different sects of Sunni and Shi'a Islam, Sufism, and possibly Druze (even though the Druze are considered, sometimes by themselves, to profess a separate religion from Islam).

[Pandy]

That would take this world into an odd road.

[marge]

So what will these people stand for?

Do they want us to come visit?

What shall we tell our children about them??

[Daniel1115]

Personally, I believe that if the Kalifa is ever re-established, some groups from the different sects of Islam will insist on fighting one another in an attempt to unify Islam under one sect as was the case in the past.

[marge]

Personally, I believe that if the Kalifa is ever re-established, some groups from the different sects of Islam will insist on fighting one another in an attempt to unify Islam under one sect as was the case in the past.

So then Islam will tell their children what?

:bash: , for what?

[IraGlacialis]

I wasn't thinking of a Caliphate. I was thinking more along the lines of a committee type goverment.
Even though this may sound as jacked-up as the map posted, but what about having somewhat neutral non-muslim moderators (probably christian) to keep peace. It would be along the lines of the Muslim keyholders for the Church of the Holy Sepulchre who keep the Status Quo*.
If there is to be a Caliph to head the committee, it would be best to actually keep a term limit and and make it so the position for Caliph cycles between sects.

*Status Quo (for those who don't know what that is) is where a neutral party opens up the Church. This is due to the many different denominations of Christianity presiding. The Status Quo was formed by Saladin to mediate conflict (sometimes violent) between the denominations. Two families (both Muslim to ensure neutrality) are in charge of the keys to the single door to the church. The door is unlocked to each respective group on a rotating schedule.

[Mr. Nielsen]

If you live in a country labled in red, there is a good chance you will not like it (example: Israel and Turkey).
Israel doesn't appear to loose any land according to the map, so this reshaping of the middle east don't seem to effect them.

Probably a bit to late for the scheme, as everybody is terrible reluctant to give up territory once it has been recognized as a legitimate part of that state regargless of the etnics. The fixed borders have after all been one of the mainstays of ensuring stability since ww2.

[budgie]

Israel doesn't appear to loose any land according to the map, so this reshaping of the middle east don't seem to effect them.

Probably a bit to late for the scheme, as everybody is terrible reluctant to give up territory once it has been recognized as a legitimate part of that state regargless of the etnics. The fixed borders have after all been one of the mainstays of ensuring stability since ww2.

I see a few areas where it might work - for example an independent Baluchistan, and Iraq being divided into Sunni, Shia and Kurdish states. However any divisions would work best within existing borders: it would only cause greater problems to say, widen Afghanistan into Pakistani terrirory or stretch Shiite Iraq further down the Arabian peninsula, cutting off Kuwait completely.

And the biggest problem remains unaddressed: The West Bank is "Status Undetermined?" Without resolving the Israel/Palestine issue the whole theory falls flat. Contrary to what the neocons still seem to believe, the road to Jerusalem does not, nor did it ever, lead through Baghdad.

[gaijinsamurai]

My thoughts were exactly the same.
Why would one carve up Iraq, Iran, Saudi Arabia, etc. "too ease tensions", yet put the West Bank on the back burner?

[TheMacedonian]

My thoughts were exactly the same.
Why would one carve up Iraq, Iran, Saudi Arabia, etc. "too ease tensions", yet put the West Bank on the back burner?

For OIL! :)

Kurdistan gets good chunk of Iraq, Iran and Syria and even access to the Black Sea.

Shiite Gets Even Saudi Arabian and Iranian oil fields and good access to the Persian Gulf.

incidently both groups are good western allies in now current Iraq.


The fact that the main problem in the Middle East i.e. West Bank is left unresolved AND just the riches are subdivided. So this is not a plan to alleviate tensions but to split the riches and eliminate Islams main money maker and sponsor Saudi Arabia and its oil.

Are you sure that this is not an official plan because some great care is being taken to compensate Azerberjan with territory in Iran due to losing Nagornoh-Karabah to Armenia. Jordan is well compensated and where did Balochistan come from with even a capital city?

[Zvucni Efekti]

Why does John Belushi get his own nation? Isn't he dead? Either way, Free Belushistan sounds like it would be a nice place to visit.

[kraf001]

Why does John Belushi get his own nation? Isn't he dead? Either way, Free Belushistan sounds like it would be a nice place to visit.
LOL ever been there?..

[kraf001]

this probably is the most anti-Iranian policy that could be taken towards Middle East... it is funny how the original think tank starts his argument by criticizing the current state of borders yet he fails to grasp the concept of the historical ties among the ethnic groups who lived in those lands... I am an Azeri and my grand parents still live in hearts of the Azerbaijan providence of Iran, I would really love to see how this guy convinces my grand parents to give up their "Iranian" heritage and become a citizen of Azerbaijan!.. shows how short sighted, ignorant and politically/economically motivated some ppl are and the scary thing is that they actually think they have it all sorted... one would have thought after Hitler, other would have think twice before spewing out “solutions”!!

some interesting things that these guys might want to consider:

* The first Iranians who fought against Iraq's invasion of Iran were "Iranian-Arabs"

* The first Iranians who reacted to the Arabs attempts on changing Persian gulf's name to Arabian gulf were indeed "Iranian-Azeris"..

* The 2500 soldiers who conducted an operation in recent months against the terrorists (represented as separationist by Western media) groups operating in Iran's Baluchistan were all "Sunnis" and from "Iranian-Baluch" families...

[IraGlacialis]

Here is the actual article by Peters covering the subject, complete with both before and after maps.

http://armedforcesjournal.com/2006/06/1833899

In the article, he actually acknowlages the fact that with borders being redrawn, some groups would actually not be happy with the plan due to, as kraf001 stated, historical ties, or other minority groups would not be addressed. But the idea is to stabilize the region, even if it takes a lot of time and, most likely, blood.

[Atlantic Friend]

I found this interesting visualization on the internet. It is a proposal made by Ralph Peters that reshapes the Mid-East with the purpose of alleviating tensions. The whole idea is that after the Ottoman Empire was broken up, the European nations divided up the land under unreasonable terms that factor (to a degree) into the violence in region today. This proposal would redraw borders to fit mainly along ethnic and cultural lines. Before you guys look at the map, be warned: If you live in a country labled in red, there is a good chance you will not like it (example: Israel and Turkey). Plus, I would like to point out that the map is purely theoretical. This is not some American conspiracy to sow discord and chaos in the Mid-East. At least I think so...
Opinions from you guys would be great.
I just hope the file loads up. I'm such a forum noob.

10657

Personally, I'm not sure sure about everything else right now, but I do know that I agree with the the idea of the Islamic Sacred State. The idea is kinda like Vatican City. I think it would be good to remove it from the full grasp of the Saudi royalty and Wahabbi fundamentalists. Possibly having it run by a coalition consisting of the different sects of Sunni and Shi'a Islam, Sufism, and possibly Druze (even though the Druze are considered, sometimes by themselves, to profess a separate religion from Islam).

Very interesting. Does Ralph Peters explain how Turkey, Iran, Saudi arabia, Afghanistan, the UAE, Kuwait, Israel and a few others will actually accept to give part of their homeland to foreign countries ?

[Firetxmi]

And we saw how well it worked out when we started reshaping the Middle East in 1948.

[I'mOnlyHalfPolish]

hhhmmm i know why it wouldn't work...look how huge kurdistan is...and i dont see the turks givin up land to the kurds

and wtf is bulichistan......?!?!?!

[ZeroZen]

hhhmmm i know why it wouldn't work...look how huge kurdistan is...and i dont see the turks givin up land to the kurds

and wtf is bulichistan......?!?!?!

yeah...WTF is that...

Some kind of Bu11sh!tstan.

[Macs.]

Balochistan or Baluchistan is an arid region located in the Iranian Plateau (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iranian_Plateau) in Southwest Asia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Southwest_Asia) and South Asia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/South_Asia), between Iran (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iran), Pakistan (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pakistan) and Afghanistan (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Afghanistan). The area is named after the numerous Baloch (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Baloch) (or Baluch, Balouch, Balooch, Balush, Balosh, Baloosh, Baloush) tribes, an Iranian people (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iranian_people), who moved into the area from the west around 1000 A.D. All natives are considered Balochi even if they do not speak Balochi (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Balochi_language); Pashto (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pashto_language), Persian (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Persian_language), and Brahui (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brahui_language) languages are also spoken in the region. The southern part of Balochistan is known as Makran (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Makran).

More: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Balochistan_%28region%29

And we saw how well it worked out when we started reshaping the Middle East in 1948.

Exactly my thought.

[kraf001]

Here is the actual article by Peters covering the subject, complete with both before and after maps.

http://armedforcesjournal.com/2006/06/1833899

In the article, he actually acknowlages the fact that with borders being redrawn, some groups would actually not be happy with the plan due to, as kraf001 stated, historical ties, or other minority groups would not be addressed. But the idea is to stabilizethe region, even if it takes a lot of time and, most likely, blood.
if he really think this will stabilize anything then he should just drop himself off to the nearest mental institute!...

[Clearday-TRForce]

Very interesting. Does Ralph Peters explain how Turkey, Iran, Saudi arabia, Afghanistan, the UAE, Kuwait, Israel and a few others will actually accept to give part of their homeland to foreign countries ?


Of course, Ralph Peters doesn't explain, coz he doesnt know what he writes about. Taking a little part of Turkey,Israel by others? is it another late april joke? how someone achieve to make it possible? p-) anyway, it is interesting to read all these fruitless stuff. Especially to read our Ottoman Empire's ruins in the middle east...and how foreigners look at that

Hey what about Latin America,Africa,Far East Asia lands? who will conquere them?...cheers and beers...

[Atlantic Friend]

The next Axis of Really Bad Guys will probably be Turkey, Pakistan, Saudi Arabia, as they steadfastly refuse to give large parts of their homel;ands to fulfill Peters' grandiose plan.

[Atlantic Friend]

if he really think this will stabilize anything then he should just drop himself off to the nearest mental institute!...

C'mon, you don't want to give half of your country for the greater good ? I'm shocked ! ;)

I'd love to see a completely revised world map for all continents as envisioned by Ralph Peters !

[I'mOnlyHalfPolish]

C'mon, you don't want to give half of your country for the greater good ? I'm shocked ! ;)

I'd love to see a completely revised world map for all continents as envisioned by Ralph Peters !

HAHA good posts, laughed my ass of on those Atlantic

Peters has his sights on Alsace-Lorraine next!

[Atlantic Friend]

HAHA good posts, laughed my ass of on those Atlantic

Peters has his sights on Alsace-Lorraine next!

Alsace-Lorraine, Eastern Turkey, Scotland...but heck, why go so far away when there are borders awaiting Peters' wisdom at home ?

Maybe he could offer some insight about border readjustment in New Mexico, California, Nevada...all in the name of stabilizing the region, of course ! ;)

More seriously, something bothers me in Peters' logic. He begins by saying that all the trouble in the ME began with the European powers (ah, the bad, old Europeans, always m,eddling in world affairs for the worst) who arbitrary imposed borders to local nations and populations, thus leading to territorial conflicts. And what is his solution ? Apparently, to impose newer borders to existing nations - some of which, like Turkey or Pakistan, are supposed to abandon so much territory that their population will probably be halved overnight.

The other thing that really startles me is the city-state of Baghdad. I was under the impression that city-states were definitely a thing of the past, after the German and Italian unifications. That they could only be maintained with the full agreement of their neighbors. That Danzig showed how fragile it was when one of the neighbors decide to swallow it. Heck, Kuwait is by and large a city-state, and we all know what happened in 1990. So, can Baghdad really become a viable city-state ? If so, is that the solution for Jerusalem ? Or for Kaliningrad ?

[I'mOnlyHalfPolish]

yeah the baghdad thing was definitely a bit "Vaticancityesque"

[IraGlacialis]

Alsace-Lorraine, Eastern Turkey, Scotland...but heck, why go so far away when there are borders awaiting Peters' wisdom at home ?

Maybe he could offer some insight about border readjustment in New Mexico, California, Nevada...all in the name of stabilizing the region, of course !

More seriously, something bothers me in Peters' logic. He begins by saying that all the trouble in the ME began with the European powers (ah, the bad, old Europeans, always m,eddling in world affairs for the worst) who arbitrary imposed borders to local nations and populations, thus leading to territorial conflicts. And what is his solution ? Apparently, to impose newer borders to existing nations - some of which, like Turkey or Pakistan, are supposed to abandon so much territory that their population will probably be halved overnight.

The other thing that really startles me is the city-state of Baghdad. I was under the impression that city-states were definitely a thing of the past, after the German and Italian unifications. That they could only be maintained with the full agreement of their neighbors. That Danzig showed how fragile it was when one of the neighbors decide to swallow it. Heck, Kuwait is by and large a city-state, and we all know what happened in 1990. So, can Baghdad really become a viable city-state ? If so, is that the solution for Jerusalem ? Or for Kaliningrad ?

California will become their own country themselves. Everybody knows that there is conspiracy to separate themselves from the rest of the US via the San Andreas faultline.
Hey, if Alsace-Lorraine is included, might as well give the Basque their own country. They have been fighting for it for the past century. Wouldn't that reduce tensions? ;)
On the subject of city-states, isn't Singapore pretty much considered a city-state. It's been doing more than fine, barring Japanese invasion.

[Atlantic Friend]

California will become their own country themselves. Everybody knows that there is conspiracy to separate themselves from the rest of the US via the San Andreas faultline.
Hey, if Alsace-Lorraine is included, might as well give the Basque their own country. They have been fighting for it for the past century. Wouldn't that reduce tensions? ;)
On the subject of city-states, isn't Singapore pretty much considered a city-state. It's been doing more than fine, barring Japanese invasion.

Singapore did not have to fend off the Japanese invasion by itself - it was then part of the British Empire. As since the end of WW2 there wasn't any particular crisis involving Singapore that I know of. A Baghdadi city-state will have three neighbors which will claim authority over its mosques, and which will have the ways to carry their threats.

The Basques, the Welsh, the Scots, the Corsicans, the Bretons, the Catalans, the Schwabe, the Kurds, the Lapps, Ulster, the Papal States, Padania, Jerusalem, the Druze, Upper Milwaukee, the Transdnestrian Republic... small is beautiful !

;)

[Clearday-TRForce]

Lebanon, PKK push vision paper with US into oblivion
Sunday, August 6, 2006

The war in Lebanon and mounting attacks by the PKK on Turkish forces have highlighted, even before the ink is dry on the shared strategic document, a disparity between how the US and Turkish governments view the Middle East

ÜMİT ENGİNSOY

WASHINGTON - Turkish Daily News


Just one month after smiling into cameras with his U.S. counterpart, Condoleezza Rice, while unveiling a shared strategic vision document here, Foreign Minister Abdullah Gül last week blasted U.S. policies on the Lebanon conflict.

What has changed in just a month? The answer lies in two key regional developments: the eruption of a war between Israel and the radical Shiite group Hezbollah in Lebanon and mounting attacks by the terrorist Kurdistan Workers' Party (PKK) on Turkish forces.

These phenomena have highlighted, even before the ink is dry on the shared strategic document, a strategic disparity between how the U.S. and Turkish governments view the Middle East.

The United States, or President George W. Bush's administration, wants to overthrow the status quo in the Middle East by whatever means possible.

Turkey, however, wants the status quo to continue; it fears that the only things a change will bring are war and destruction.

On the PKK problem, the United States delegated the assignment to the fledgling Baghdad government and to the Iraqi Kurds -- who actually would like to say good-bye to Iraq at the first suitable opportunity.

The past hellish month has shown that the discrepancy between the United States and Turkey's views makes it hard to have an optimistic outlook on the relationship's future. What can the two do to salvage their troubled ties?

Probably not much because their differences are so rooted. At least they can start by abandoning efforts towards papers like last month's -- ineffective -- document, because they simply do not share a common vision, says one Washington analyst.


Maybe it will be get better if a new president comes in USA. Otherwise, we will fight on tables and maybe later on soils...p-)


regards,
CDTRF

[IraGlacialis]

I FOUND IT!!!!
The key to peace, not just in the Middle East, but around the world. The plan is practically flawless.
All we need to do is eliminate the human race completely, down to the last person who presses the little red button. The process will be a little tricky (especially the last part with getting rid of the last guy), so I will need some help.p-)
Soon the cockroaches will inherit the Earth and start their own religious wars.woot

:bash: