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LazyLob
08-05-2006, 06:33 AM
The Times August 05, 2006

Don't be fooled by the fanatics: Islam's liberals are on the march

Irshad Manji

Even Muslim clerics in Pakistan now hint that the Hudood laws are not divinely created

IT IS EASY to believe that the Muslim world has only bad news to offer. But easy doesn’t mean accurate; in truth, there’s much good news to report.

First, allow me to confess the obvious: we Muslims play the role of villain quite well, thanks. Last month, a group of terrorists — evidently Islamist militants — blew commuter trains to shards in India. The next day, Hezbollah kidnapped and killed Israeli soldiers, touching off the latest round of bombs and bullets.

But I expect the worst from religious extremists; moderate Muslims disappoint me more. We call for a “proportionate response” from Israel. Yet when we diminish or ignore Hezbollah’s crimes, we engage in a disproportionate response of our own. It has attacked Israel from southern Lebanon and Gaza, the very areas that the Jewish state had unilaterally evacuated. If Islam is another word for peace, what is unIslamic about opposing such bald aggression?

Moreover, Hezbollah deliberately endangers the lives of Muslim and Christian civilians. Its fighters set up shop in the middle of busy residential districts, so that any retaliation against them must involve hitting innocents. What makes Muslims moderate when we wink at this cruel calculus?

So given our hostility-turned-hypocrisy, how can I say there is good news? Brace yourselves: during the week that India and Israel were reminded of Islamist brutality, liberal Muslims made progress in reclaiming our faith, both in the East and in the West.

Let’s start in the East. For almost three decades, Pakistan has followed a set of laws called Hudood, after hudd or penalties prescribed by God, that determine punishment in cases of rape and adultery. Under these laws, more than 4,600 Pakistani women have been thrown in prison for offences that include adultery. By contrast, virtually all men accused of rape go free.

The Hudood ordinances are being seriously challenged at last. Thanks to a vocal, but religiously respectful, campaign by civil society groups, the influential Council for Islamic Ideology recently recommended reform. That move allowed President Musharraf to begin releasing some of the 1,300 women who were in jail awaiting trial.

Even Muslim clerics in Pakistan now hint that the Hudood laws are not divinely created. The politics behind them tells us so. In 1977, a US-backed coup installed General Zia al-Haq as president. To cement his grip, the strongman surrounded himself with sycophantic mullahs who referred to him as “Commander of the Faithful”, a term reserved for the successors of Prophet Muhammad. To curry favour among village leaders, Zia mixed a selective reading of the Koran with tribal customs. Stoning became a legal punishment for adultery, while a rape had to be witnessed by four men before an offender could be charged.But suppose a rape doesn’t have the benefit of so many male eyes or male voices willing to testify? Then the woman involved would be accused of adultery and she could be jailed, lashed or stoned. The injustices that followed have slandered not only women, but Islam itself.

As more and more Muslims in Pakistan recognise that these laws emanate from human beings, they acknowledge that the duty to rethink them also rests in their hands, not God’s. Muslims believe that Allah is perfect. We are learning to appreciate that Allah’s interpreters are not.

The liberal reformation of Islam picked up more speed in Denmark, the country that sparked worldwide riots after one of its newspapers published cartoons depicting the Prophet Muhammad. In Copenhagen I joined other “Muslim Leaders of Tomorrow” to debate how Islam and the West can enrich each other. Allow me to divulge some of their more shocking statements:

Man from the Netherlands: “We, as Muslims, need to look in the mirror instead of blaming everybody else!”

Woman from Germany: “I don’t have an identity crisis. I’m Western and Muslim and grateful to be both.”

Imam from Britain: “The minute a woman becomes a mufti [Islamic judge], I will be the first to study at her feet.”

One delegate tested the young clerics by asking: “Is Islam the only way to salvation?” A Danish imam gripped the microphone: “The short answer,” he said, “is no.” A British imam disputed that response and an Italian took the middle road. Remarkably, they never accused each other of being evil or insincere. For the first time in my life, I heard the message that in Islam, unity does not have to mean uniformity.

The conference organisers were emboldened to do something utterly unthinkable: welcome Flemming Rose, the editor of Jyllands-Posten and publisher of the reviled cartoons. Rose confided that the reception we gave him was more civil than anything he had experienced from secular groups.

A liberal reformation of Islam will involve at least two features: the empowerment of women in the Islamic world, and the willingness of Muslims in the West to exercise their freedom of conscience. In one week, both got a promising boost. We will need to remember that as God’s soldiers continue to grab the spotlight.

Irshad Manji is author of The Trouble with Islam Today: A Wake-Up Call for Honesty and Change

tyovan4
08-05-2006, 07:12 AM
Very good news, I wish them luck.

Kampfbaer
08-05-2006, 08:33 AM
It would be a long, long way!

I don´t see this happen in the immediate future, but well Christianity needed a couple of cwnturies too.....

shire19
08-05-2006, 08:51 AM
Good article, reform in times like these is desperatly needed. Especially in that part of the Islamic world.

Mailman
08-05-2006, 09:04 AM
Maybe so BUT these guys are still the exception, not the norm!

Although if Christianity could reform themselves a couple hundred years ago there is still hope for Islam. Until that day, I dont be holding my breath.

Mailman

Firetxmi
08-05-2006, 11:07 AM
Maybe so BUT these guys are still the exception, not the norm!

Although if Christianity could reform themselves a couple hundred years ago there is still hope for Islam. Until that day, I dont be holding my breath.

Mailman

Who is the exception? The extremists or the normal guys?

Mailman
08-05-2006, 04:38 PM
The non-extremists.

Mailman

Firetxmi
08-05-2006, 06:32 PM
The non-extremists.

Mailman

So are you trying to say that the majority of Muslims are extremists?

I'mOnlyHalfPolish
08-06-2006, 12:06 AM
So are you trying to say that the majority of Muslims are extremists?

numbers don't matter when the extremists have the loudest voice and act out most

Firetxmi
08-06-2006, 12:07 AM
numbers don't matter when the extremists have the loudest voice and act out most


Oh really. Do elaborate. I'd love to see where this goes.

I'mOnlyHalfPolish
08-06-2006, 12:29 AM
hhhmmm show me a large protest where 14,000 gather in the street to voice their opinion AGAINST terrorism...?

i believe there was a recent example in the streets of baghdad for "other reasons"

Bombtrack
08-06-2006, 12:32 AM
She's from aroudn here and talks a lot about it on local news stations, has some interesting things to say

Firetxmi
08-06-2006, 12:56 AM
hhhmmm show me a large protest where 14,000 gather in the street to voice their opinion AGAINST terrorism...?

i believe there was a recent example in the streets of baghdad for "other reasons"

Show me where white people rallied against racists recently.......

Ezekiel25:17
08-06-2006, 01:00 AM
Show me where white people rallied against racists recently.......

your reaching

LazyLob
08-06-2006, 04:19 AM
Show me where white people rallied against racists recently.......

We are not discussing racism, get back on topic and stop trying to deviate. I you're still interested in racism google it, I'm sure you'll find plenty of examples, don't be a clever clogs by trying to get over people to do your work for you.

shire19
08-06-2006, 05:53 AM
hhhmmm show me a large protest where 14,000 gather in the street to voice their opinion AGAINST terrorism...?

i believe there was a recent example in the streets of baghdad for "other reasons"

I'll give you 150,000. (http://gatewaypundit.blogspot.com/2005/11/massive-muslim-demonstration-against.html)

But maybe the voice of the extremists is alot louder because the media pays more attention to them than the moderates. Bad news sells.

Firetxmi
08-06-2006, 10:26 AM
I'll give you 150,000. (http://gatewaypundit.blogspot.com/2005/11/massive-muslim-demonstration-against.html)

But maybe the voice of the extremists is alot louder because the media pays more attention to them than the moderates. Bad news sells.

As some have said on here before: "OH SNAP!"

:D

I'mOnlyHalfPolish
08-06-2006, 01:37 PM
well good on em, but i wonder if this would have happened had two morroccans not been captured in iraq...?

Mailman
08-06-2006, 07:11 PM
So are you trying to say that the majority of Muslims are extremists?

Shall I say it slower so you can keep up?

Its just a pity that this guy is in the minority, ie. a muslim willing to criticise his fellow muslims. The fact is, this guy IS A MINORITY while the majority of the sh1t we do hear is about muslims supporting muslims detonating on buses etc!

Mailman

Firetxmi
08-06-2006, 07:27 PM
Shall I say it slower so you can keep up?

Its just a pity that this guy is in the minority, ie. a muslim willing to criticise his fellow muslims. The fact is, this guy IS A MINORITY while the majority of the sh1t we do hear is about muslims supporting muslims detonating on buses etc!

Mailman

The majority of the stuff we hear about, maybe, the Majority of Muslims, I don't think so. I work, and hang out with Muslims all the time, and have never had a problem. Please show some stats to back up your assumption that the majority of Muslims are bad people.

LazyLob
08-06-2006, 07:49 PM
Back your own assumption up with your own “stats”. You hardly ever give any. You just ask other people to back theirs up. Pot kettle black.

Firetxmi
08-06-2006, 08:42 PM
Back your own assumption up with your own “stats”. You hardly ever give any. You just ask other people to back theirs up. Pot kettle black.

It is not I that suggest a majority of people who follow a certain religion are bad people. If he is going to make such a bold statement let the burden of proof be on him!

alexz
08-06-2006, 09:29 PM
numbers don't matter when the extremists have the loudest voice and act out most

True, soon Irshad or what ever her name is will be silanced too.
Like most anti extrimist Muslims she will soon be lables an infidel or something
and her life will be in danger. Even in her own country Canada, moderate
Muslims are threatend and some have to resign and stay quiet like this guy.
This is from a few days ago.

http://toronto.ctv.ca/servlet/an/local/CTVNews/20060803/fatah_resigns_060803/20060803?hub=TorontoHome

Threats force Tarek Fatah to resign from MCC
Canadian Press

TORONTO — Tarek Fatah had heard threats several times since establishing the Muslim Canadian Congress, but it was being publicly labelled as anti-Islam that prompted the outspoken spokesman to resign from the organization he founded.

Fatah, the MCC's communications director, has often been criticized for liberal views that some say directly contradict tenets of Islam.

In June, Mohamed Elmasry, the national president of the Canadian Islamic Congress, named four public figures _ Fatah among them _ whom he accused of taking every opportunity to bad-mouth the religion.

Elmasry described Fatah as someone who is "well known in Canada for smearing Islam and bashing Muslims.''

Those comments, combined with an e-mail campaign against him, left Fatah in fear for his life, he said in an interview.

"This is a classic threat to label anyone as an apostate and then marginalize them,'' Fatah said. "And this is what Mr. Elmasry has done by listing me as the top anti-Islam Muslim.''

Concern expressed by his wife and two daughters also motivated his decision, he added.

"They're constantly worried about what's going to happen to me,'' Fatah said. "In a way, it's not fair to them.''

Fatah said he believes threats and pressure tactics are a common practice in Islamic countries.

"This is quite widespread in the Muslim world. This tactic is used to label people as apostates to silence them. In some ways, they are successful in doing that.''

Fatah viewed the label from Elmasry as tantamount to a death sentence, but some Islamic scholars do not share this opinion.

"There's nothing particularly Islamic in this,'' said Leonard Librande, a professor of religion at Carleton University in Ottawa. "There are differences of opinion frequently in the community. It doesn't mean somebody is going to kill you.''

Fatah's actions were understandable in light of his family situation, Librande added.

Elliot Tepper, Librande's colleague at Carleton's political science department, said he was concerned by the message Fatah's resignation sends across the country.

"I think he's a very brave guy,'' Tepper said. "I think it's very disturbing to find someone representing modern Islam resigning over death threats.'' Tepper's views echoed the sentiments of dozens of people around the world expressing support for Fatah in online forums.

But some members of the Muslim community greeted the news with delight.

"Yay! Exclamation mark!'' shouted Mubin Shaikh, who helped provide intelligence to the Canadian Security Intelligence Service that helped lead to the June arrest of 17 Muslims charged with plotting to strike targets in southern Ontario.

"Tarek Fatah is not and never was representative of Islam and Muslims.''

Shaikh has publicly disagreed with Fatah on issues such as the place of Sharia law in Canadian society.

He said he does not expect their opposition to subside now that Fatah has resigned from the MCC.

"I will keep coming after him,'' Shaikh said. "He is a great... pretender of Islam.''

Ayura
08-07-2006, 12:43 AM
Shall I say it slower so you can keep up?

Its just a pity that this guy is in the minority, ie. a muslim willing to criticise his fellow muslims. The fact is, this guy IS A MINORITY while the majority of the sh1t we do hear is about muslims supporting muslims detonating on buses etc!

Mailman



Your should go to Sermons and see what Imams say about the Ummah. Muslims have always been critical of the Ummah - I know this first hand....

LazyLob
08-07-2006, 08:12 AM
Your should go to Sermons and see what Imams say about the Ummah. Muslims have always been critical of the Ummah - I know this first hand....


So, what is it they say?

shire19
08-07-2006, 09:59 AM
well good on em, but i wonder if this would have happened had two morroccans not been captured in iraq...?

Probally wouldn't. But can't really blame them, they are afterall Morrocan Muslims and not British, American or Spanish Muslims. There have however been protests against terrorism by these western Muslims. The occassionaly outsiders from Asia too at times.

Mailman
08-07-2006, 08:59 PM
Your should go to Sermons and see what Imams say about the Ummah. Muslims have always been critical of the Ummah - I know this first hand....

Couldnt care less, I want to hear the f8ckers being critical of the f8ckers who detonate in markets and on buses etc.

Mailman

Ayura
08-07-2006, 10:02 PM
Couldnt care less, I want to hear the f8ckers being critical of the f8ckers who detonate in markets and on buses etc.

Mailman


They do, but unfortuntely, these voices get denied by media. Wonder why...

Firetxmi
08-08-2006, 01:28 AM
Couldnt care less, I want to hear the f8ckers being critical of the f8ckers who detonate in markets and on buses etc.

Mailman

Using your logic a majority of the military rapes children and murders families. Thats all we seem to hear about. I dont see mass demonstrations with soldiers talking about how angry they are! :roll:

LazyLob
08-08-2006, 03:08 AM
Using your logic a majority of the military rapes children and murders families. Thats all we seem to hear about. I dont see mass demonstrations with soldiers talking about how angry they are! :roll:

Which military?

But using this logic you are alluding to. Can you specify the common reason why these soldiers “rape children” and "murder families"?

Mailman
08-08-2006, 03:47 AM
They do, but unfortuntely, these voices get denied by media. Wonder why...

This is the unfortunate truth and the anti-western/anything to do with bush media are only far too happy to help peddle this truth.

Mailman