Don't let the North 'be taken from us'

[EvanL]

STORY
Don't let the North 'be taken from us'
Act now before it's too late, historian warns

Kelly Roesler
The Ottawa Citizen


Tuesday, March 30, 2004
ADVERTISEMENT



With global warming likely to open up shipping trade in the Northwest Passage in the near future, Canada must reassert its sovereignty in the North, a new book by an Ottawa writer says.

Historian Gerry Kenney, the author of Ships of Wood and Men of Iron, said Canada needs to take immediate action to prepare for the day -- in the next few years -- when climate change breaks down the ice blocking the Northwest Passage and leaves it open to commercial shipping.

If Canada doesn't act, he warned, it could mean losing control, a dangerous risk considering the recent dispute with the Danish government.

"It will be taken from us, just like Hans Island is being taken from us," Mr. Kenney said.

The governments of Canada and Denmark are disputing the ownership of a remote island on the northern tip of western Greenland that Canada has always claimed as its own. The Danish government has sent its warship Vaedderen to patrol the waters surrounding the island, a move that prompted the Canadian government to issue a diplomatic protest.

If Mr. Kenney had his way, the Canadian government would take pre-emptive action to strengthen its territorial claims.

"It's time for Canada to be proactive and not have to respond to what other people are planning," he said. "Canada has to have a dominant role."

The purchase of three major Arctic islands discovered by Norwegian explorer Otto Sverdrup is another example of Canadian complacency that Mr. Kenney reveals in his book. The discovery came as a shock and embarrassment to the Canadian government, and sparked concerns about the country's lack of effort to assert control in the Far North.

Though official records show that Canada paid Mr. Sverdrup $67,000 for his original journals and maps, Mr. Kenney came across proof, in a letter dated Oct. 17, 1930, that the payment bought sovereignty of the islands.

Mr. Kenney hopes his book will inspire the government to exert control and establish strong territorial claims.

Ingvard Havnen, Norway's ambassador to Canada, said Mr. Kenney's book paints a vivid and accurate portrait of relations between the two countries.

"There are so many connections between Norway and Canada, and so many Norwegian explorers who have made an important imprint, as this book illustrates very well," he said.

"This is not only celebrating history, it's also a basis for addressing today's common challenges."

Mr. Havnen said working together is crucial.

"When we are going to address the challenges up North, there is only one way of doing that and that is through international co-operation."

© The Ottawa Citizen 2004

[Loco]

Some canadians seem to think wherever a stockfish is swiming, these are canadians waters. Now, THE NORTH is Canada. Perfect.

[FlightSergeantRose]

If you care to look at a map, you will notice Canada occupies land all the way up to the tip pf Greenland, pretty much. It is the province of Nunavut (mostly, plus NWT)and we have people that live all over it. They are very small communities, but they are there.

It is made of of many islands as well. The water inside these areas are Canadian waters. The North West Passage travels through our waters and so we control everything about it.

Sucks to the world, maybe we should put up a toll :P

[cbreedon]

Come on.... what are you worried for you could take Denmark. :) Bigger population and homefield advantage, plus you've got a big brother to the South that would help out if need be.

[wholagun]

WARNING TO DANES: THIS IS WHAT WILL HAPPEN IF YOU TAKE OUR BIGGEST SKATING RINK IN THE NORTH

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Um no not quite..

http://www.TheForumz.com/images/icon_page/055.gif

to finish you guys off we will pee on you, although we Canadians know full well that if you pee in the artic you must be careful as it can be quite cold and the little fella may be as ready as you may think and could retreat back into the anus for an entire week.
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[Kitsune]

Is there a Danish/Canadian War coming?

The World is full of surprises...

[FlightSergeantRose]

We would lose.

[ArmedPacifist]

Is there a Danish/Canadian War coming?

The World is full of surprises...

Doubtful, probably just a standoff until the Danish backdown.

[Yard Ape]

wholagun,
Add these to you sellection of lil'guys:

http://army.ca/ubb/graemlins/sm_blotto.gif http://army.ca/ubb/graemlins/sm_fifty.gif

http://army.ca/ubb/graemlins/sm_mg.gifhttp://army.ca/ubb/graemlins/sm_blotto.gif

http://army.ca/ubb/graemlins/sm_akimbo.gifhttp://army.ca/ubb/graemlins/sm_blotto.gif

http://army.ca/ubb/graemlins/sm_rocket.gifhttp://army.ca/ubb/graemlins/sm_blotto.gif

http://army.ca/ubb/graemlins/sm_sniper.gifhttp://army.ca/ubb/graemlins/sm_blotto.gif


I've already given my thoughts on this in a related thread: http://www.militaryphotos.net/forums/viewtopic.php?p=205745#205745

[MapleLeafInfantry]

just place some howitzers within range of the island, buy some exocets for the cf-18's, and tell the picklies, chicken f***ers and vandoo's to ruck up... its gonna be a long day.

mli

[Germaine]

F*** it. Nobody will ever go to war over it. Canadas just trying to get back in the picture

[Yard Ape]

What picture?

[Germaine]

Trying to get some say in World events. Gotta start somewhere

[Yard Ape]

So currently having command of ISAF, providing a Bde HQ and a full BG to ISAF, deploying NEO to Hati, and maintaining a BG in the Balkans is not being "in World events."

[Germaine]

Noboby really cares about Cdns opinions anymore. Don't have much say on world events anymore

[Yard Ape]

. . . and you belive that fighting over an island will change this?

[Germaine]

We've had a BG in Bos for the last 10 Years and #'S doesn't mean a thing ( we're pulling out roto 15) In ISAF its our turn ( we have one of the highest commitment of trps for now so of course they're going to give it to a Cdn, it's political) and we're cutting back to less than 600 trps (suprise suprise) and like i said before we're trying to get back in the pic so thats why we send "some" trps to Haiti

[Germaine]

We're going back up North for PR

[Yard Ape]

In ISAF its our turn ( we have one of the highest commitment of trps for now so of course they're going to give it to a Cdn, it's political) and we're cutting back to less than 600 trps Don't be too certain. No other nation is prepared to replace us, and we cannot just walk out saying "see ya suckers"


Noboby really cares about Cdns opinions anymore. Don't have much say on world events anymore
. . . and you belive that fighting over an island will change this?You didn't really answer this. How will fighting over an island get us "back in the pic?" Wouldn't we do better to send a BG to Iraq or attach a BG to the US forces in Afghanistan (in addition to our ISAF commitment)?

[Germaine]

re: ISAF i know for a fact my BN ( only a Coy) is going

[Yard Ape]

Interesting, because the TO&E is not yet officially authorised.

[Germaine]

We would do better if we sent a full BG of CBT trps to where ever (don't see it happing just Yet, I really wish) And going to a Island that we own is telling the world we're gonna fight for our cntry, and let the world know we're trying to take our place again (where our opinion makes a difference)

[Germaine]

interesting eh ;)

[ßå$tĮТHÏ¿ð]

I dont think they would even try it if they knew another army was out there watching them :lol:

Even though its a frozen place its still our's

[Germaine]

too cold for most

[MapleLeafInfantry]

We've had a BG in Bos for the last 10 Years and #'S doesn't mean a thing ( we're pulling out roto 15) In ISAF its our turn ( we have one of the highest commitment of trps for now so of course they're going to give it to a Cdn, it's political) and we're cutting back to less than 600 trps (suprise suprise) and like i said before we're trying to get back in the pic so thats why we send "some" trps to Haiti

last roto in boz isn't 15, the guys who just got back from 13 said they've scaled back, but wont be closin house...

they've been saying no more boz since roto 8.......
mli

[Germaine]

Cimic and some logs doesn't count as a real commitment

[Germaine]

a tokin force doesn't mean s*** we have them all over the world

[martinexsquaddie]

lets back the danes up
1 a chance to retake quebec again and cull more french canadians :lol:
they would'nt come to our quebec day celebrations so tough
2 revenge for alanis and bryan adams
3 danish women are hot and put out more :lol:
4 it would be more fun taunting canadian POWs e.g. " whats it like being in the US army rofl "

[cut]

revenge for celine dion is reason enough.

[Marmot1]

No danes here???

So who would lead new flame war on the Danish side??? :oops: ?

[Adri]

who fights over some ice ???? rofl
:cantbeli:

"ok" go on, but don't scare all the bears over to us !

[obd]

I like how the article said "Denmark sent ITS warship to patrol the area". Notice it didnt say "one of its naval vessels". hahah I guess they only have one warship big enough for that kind of duty. The Canadian military might be small but it could still kick Danish ass off the coast.

Not to mention, if Canada ever did decide to assert its control over Han island the United States would support it 100% and the Danes would be **** out of luck. Right now the US is just gonna sit back and see if they can resolve it peacefully or not. Really its just a pissing contest between Canada and Denmark though and it would be pretty stupid if it turned into some kind of armed incident that led to World War 3 like:

"Canada responds by sending its own patrol boats off Han island. The Danish vessel and Canadian vessels get close enough to shout and curses are exchanged between crews leading to some Candian bacon being thrown at the Danish ship and some sardines being hurled at the Canadians. This quickly leads to farting in the enemies general direction and when one Danish crewman farts too close to his mates cigarette it creates a fireball that is mistaken by the Danish captain as a enemy incoming fire.

The Danes respond by returning fire and the smaller Caadian patrol boats move off with multiple dead and wounded. Twenty minutes later Canadian CF-18 attack aircraft strafe the hell out of the Danes and sink thier only warship. All that is left is 20 million sardines foating in the water. This causes a large pod of whales to form and feed on them. Then, Icelandic fisherman who no longer agree with the worldwide ban on whaling move in and slaughter the whales. Greenpeace moves in with rubber boats and the whales try to eat them and choke on the rubber and die.

President bush launches delta force commando's to kill the "Al Queada linked Greenpeace" but when they get there all they find is dead whales, rubber boats, and sardines.

Then, President Bush launches legislation that further restricts peoples rights and lets the government spy on all vegetarian restaraunts which are known hippie and Al Queda meeting places. Bush claims that Al Queda is trying to destroy the United States by forcing us to conserve our natural resources and launches "freedoms fight against tree's, clean water, clean air, and wild life so that Al Queda will be forced to abondon that strategy. Bush also launches a massive campaing of overspending to destroy the economy so that Al Queada wont have the satisfaction of thinking they were the ones to do it.

America falters after Bush gets re-elected and the world erupts into war and the major stabilizing force is now gone.. Damn you Canada!!! Damn you!! I always knew you would be the deathblow to freedom!! I always KNEW!!!! AHHHHHHHHHHHH

Dammit, why did you Candians have to cause such a war over a useless island??? I hate you all!!!!

[ArmedPacifist]

Nice post :lol:

[DANJANOU]

Ditto, nice post.

Seriously all that's going to happen is we'll send a show the flag contingent up there and they'll back off. A couple of the coastal patrol boats already (and I love the fact that sent them instead of a frigate due to costs). Remember the "Turbot War" with Spain?

We'll follow up with say an infantry coy (either regular or more likely composite reserve) backed by a Ranger patrol.

We played this game a lot back in the cold war. Look at the bright side you'll actually get some realistic winter training. Han Island sure as hell beats Meaford, Wainwright or Pet in January. Bonus points for getting to work with the Rangers. Those guys do know their stuff in their own backyard.

[DANJANOU]

oops double post. Me bad :slap:

[Loco]

Remember the "Turbot War" with Spain?

I remember the Turbot War with Spain. It was called a war only in Canada. You win your war, bravo, valientes!
Spanish Fishing Institute had researched the waters off the 200 miles of canadian economic zone, and had discovered big banks of turbot, only that a depth of almost 2.000 meters, even at 1.000 meters. Nobody in the world fished at that depth, it was imposible. It was developed a new technology in radars for those fishes, fishing net arts, and some new fishing ships like "Estay" ship for the turbot fishing. A new market for this fish was created in Spain, where it was almost unknown. From the desert, the spanish fishers got water, let´s saying. So, the canadians fishers of New Founland, who used for themselves alone the waters of TERRANOVA, first used for my basques ancestors 500 years ago, having ruined the stockfish in their waters, a thing that never happened before, then they began to fishing baby seals, and almost extinguished those seals, the world could enjoy of the images of canadians fishers killing with sticks(hockey sticks?) that seals, and etc etc etc. So, what to do? A demagogue called Brian Tobin said: look at those spanish, they are fishing and sacking "our" waters!!!! So he sent a frigate for kidnapping the "Estay", the newest ship of spanish fishers, and the robbers accused the robbed of being thieves. More frigates were sent for threatening spanish ships in international waters, even cutting the nets when they were extended, puting in danger the fishers lifes. People in Spain were astonished for this bastards, simply didn´t believed a sob like Tobin could be minister in Canada. An small patrol ship was sent to Canada, and he stopped the canadians frigates of threatening spanish, even portugueses, fishing ships. At the end, the international court oblied Canada to give back the "Estay" to Spain and recognized our rights, only that a new conference of fishing countries was made and there were fixed quotas of turbot for every country, with the strange situation that many countries, included Canada, asked for fishing turbot in waters they couldn´t before because they didn´t know how to do it. So the turbot has many motives for being worried since a canadian minister said he´d try to evite the extinction of the turbot. If the turbot is going to be defended in the same way its cousin the stockfish was, there´ll never be more turbot.
The clear thing is that the brave canadian navy insulted, humilliated spanish fishers, and tried to do the same with a little ship of our armada, because never thought there would be a war near the home door of USA. Danemark knows now the problem is facing with Canada and the posible behaviour. I have nothing against Canada, even I feel some kind of simpathy for that country, except in the question of the fishers. Tobin, the fishers of N.Founland, the people who voted him, were simply a bunch of cowards and liers. I hope the next time there´s a problem of this nature with Canada or any other country, never more our sailors being so civilizated. A torpedo must be the answer and to the hell with the sobs.
At the end, Bombardier lost a contract with Spain the same year of about 2.000millions euros because the damn turbot, and you note that the fishing of turbot reported barely 60millions euros for Spain that year.

[Mr. Nielsen]

I have tried hard to get worked up over this issue, but so far I haven't been succesful.
While I try harder, you can look at these pictures of the danish patrol ships and their helicopters.

Here is Triton, a sistership of Vædderen.
http://www.hejlmann.dk/Heraldik/FotoSkibe/TRITfoto.jpg

If I remember correctly Jane's call's the accomodation luxurious.

http://www.hejlmann.dk/1Eskadre/THET%202002%2011-010.jpg

Some pictures of the onboard Lynx helicopter.

http://www.marineflyver.dk/Billederogvideo/Skib/images/medium_100-0010_IMG.jpg

http://www.marineflyver.dk/Billederogvideo/Skib/images/Landing%20paa%20italiener.jpg

http://www.marineflyver.dk/Billederogvideo/Transport/Hoist/images/medium_100-0022_IMG.jpg

http://www.marineflyver.dk/Billederogvideo/Transport/Hoist/images/medium_100-0034_IMG.jpg

More Lynx pics here: http://www.marineflyver.dk

[DANJANOU]

Mr. Nielson, I tend to agree with you. It’s made a couple of front pages over here, but (for now) I’m dismissing it as political rabble rousing.

Nice pics BTW. Nice looking patrol vessel. About the size of what we should have looked into for a patrol vessel. Perhaps 4 of these and 8 Halifax class instead of 12 Halifax class and we wouldn’t have crew shortages. Reinforced hull is of course mandatory for any navy operating in Arctic (or Antarctic) waters.

Loco interesting version of events there. Always wondered how that little farce played out on the other side of the pond. BTW we use ordinary clubs on the poor baby harp seals. Hockey Sticks are only used to bash people with.

[Fenna]

Fighting over a silly idea like some islands, ha!

Someone needs Maggie Thatcher in command :lol:

[martinexsquaddie]

Been to the Falklands in 1991 its a ****hole and the people are odd to say the least
BUT THEY DIDN'T WANT TO BE ARGENTIAN
also Bonus point nasty Facist military junta got shown to be useless Hollow men result
2000 odd people get there island back and life improves an awful lot pre war
several million people get a Democratic goverment and are slowly getting an economy and now no longer having to fear there sons or Daughters Disappeared
So Basic rule of law reinforced Soverinty can't be changed by force and democracy brought to latin american Country Pretty good going

[Mr Gently Benevolent]

Been to the Falklands in 1991 its a ****hole and the people are odd to say the least
I knew a guy who was over as well he said some of his mates were coming down with depression while on the other hand my cousin was in the Death Star and he loved it!



2000 odd people get there island back and life improves an awful lot pre war
The Falkland Islands Company really had to give up a lot of their powers after the war it helped move things along no end.

[Dkraver]

Hi this is my first post here. I really had to make a answer to this one. First off i can only laugh about this. The "fight" for the 1.3km2 big island have been going on since 1973. Every year Danish and canadian Govements have sent people to plant a flag on it to show its presence for one reason alone. The day when the global warming have opened up the sea there so it will be possible to for trade ships to sail between Asia and europe. Then it apparently will have a high value for some reason.
The only thing that Denmark and Canada have been able to agreed on since 1973 is to disagreed. But it have also been a small diplomatic thing that never really taken much media interest.
http://img.ekstrabladet.dk/images/04/03/31/0403311039128389_d1cfa47c.jpg
Now Canada for some reason are planning a big military exercise to "show off power" and have annouced it to the press. Why i really dont know.
But can only say one thing. It belongs to Denmark ;)

Second thing about Danish Naval Forces here are some info and pictures about the fighting ships.

http://www.dkraver.dk/daffiles/juel.jpg
Niels Juel Class
Length: 84 m
Deplacement: 1320 tons
Speed: 30 Knob
Crew: 90

Weapons
76 mm kanon
4 stk. 20 mm kanoner
8 SSM launchere
1 SAM launcher

http://www.dkraver.dk/daffiles/thetis.jpg
Thetis Class (Standard Flex 3000)
Length: 112,5 m
Deplacement: 3500 tons
Speed: 20 Knob
Crew: 60

Weapons
76 mm kanon
Can be configured to multiple task

And last thing
http://www.navalhistory.dk/images/Skibene/FlexStoetteskibe/NytPatruljefartoej.jpg
http://www.navalhistory.dk/images/Skibene/FlexStoetteskibe/FlexSoesaettes25022004_1a.jpg
Flexible Support & Patrol Ship
First is delivered and are being equiped and should be ready for action July 2004
Length: 137 m
Deplacement: 6300 tons
Speed: 23 knob
Crew: ?

Weapons
5” Mk 45 Mod 4 kanon
And more
Danish Navy also has some smaller Patrol ships and Mine deployment ships.

[ArmedPacifist]

I just have two words.....It's On.....the bombing begins in 30 minutes.

[GrimmyRX]

*waves the Canadian Flag*

:lol: