Serbian Knights

[SerbPVO]

Serbia's military budget hits a new low...so we gotta look into the old storage sites and wipe the dust off some old equipment, and simply try to make do;)

http://www.svibor.org/slike/fotografije/Dani%20Beograda/_5A_0203.jpg

http://www.svibor.org/slike/fotografije/Dani%20Beograda/_6A_0168.jpg

http://www.svibor.org/slike/fotografije/Dani%20Beograda/_6A_0204.jpg

http://www.svibor.org/slike/fotografije/Dani%20Beograda/_19_0146.jpg

http://www.svibor.org/slike/fotografije/Dani%20Beograda/_32_0159.jpg

http://www.svibor.org/slike/fotografije/Dani%20Beograda/20A_0290.jpg

http://www.svibor.org/slike/fotografije/Dani%20Beograda/21A_0148.jpg

http://www.svibor.org/slike/fotografije/Dani%20Beograda/26A_0224.jpg

http://www.svibor.org/slike/fotografije/Dani%20Beograda/33A_0160.jpg

http://www.svibor.org/slike/fotografije/Dani%20Beograda/Dani%20Beograda06.JPG

http://www.svibor.org/slike/fotografije/Dani%20Beograda/Dani%20Beograda06-1.JPG

http://www.svibor.org/slike/fotografije/Dani%20Beograda/17A_0179.jpg

http://www.svibor.org/slike/fotografije/Dani%20Beograda/Dani%20Beograda04.jpg

http://www.svibor.org/slike/fotografije/Dani%20Beograda/_27_0154.jpg

[I'mOnlyHalfPolish]

battle of kosova...?

[SerbPVO]

A few more...

http://www.svibor.org/slike/fotografije/razno/_1A_0985.jpg

http://www.svibor.org/slike/fotografije/razno/_6A_0955.jpg

http://www.svibor.org/slike/fotografije/razno/_7A_0956.jpg

http://www.svibor.org/slike/fotografije/razno/22A_1042.jpg

http://www.svibor.org/slike/fotografije/razno/kolona%20II%201.jpg

http://www.svibor.org/slike/fotografije/razno/IM000853.JPG

http://www.svibor.org/slike/fotografije/razno/IM000856.JPG

http://www.svibor.org/slike/fotografije/razno/IM000875.JPG

http://www.svibor.org/slike/fotografije/razno/borba%20I%207.jpg

http://www.svibor.org/slike/fotografije/razno/IM000891.JPG

http://www.svibor.org/slike/fotografije/razno/Ada1.JPG

http://www.svibor.org/slike/fotografije/razno/5.JPG

http://www.svibor.org/slike/fotografije/razno/9.JPG

http://www.svibor.org/slike/fotografije/razno/DSC06267.JPG

http://www.svibor.org/slike/fotografije/razno/DSC06068.JPG

http://www.svibor.org/slike/fotografije/razno/Narodno%20poyoriste1.jpg


http://www.svibor.org/slike/fotografije/razno/Teslic.JPG

http://www.svibor.org/slike/fotografije/razno/Teslic1.JPG

http://www.svibor.org/slike/fotografije/razno/Sajam%20turizma.jpg

http://www.svibor.org/slike/fotografije/razno/PICT0204.JPG

http://www.svibor.org/slike/fotografije/razno/Ada3.JPG

[demotivater]

Pretty cool.

Is that the only horse in country? :)

[I'mOnlyHalfPolish]

where are the turkish hordes?

[Lazarus]

battle of kosova...?
KosovO!!!!

[GDS_Starfury]

http://www.svibor.org/slike/fotografije/razno/Sajam%20turizma.jpg

the blonde seems a little to into that cut.

[I'mOnlyHalfPolish]

KosovO!!!!

i dunno ive seen it spelled both ways....................i think

[shatro]

Pretty cool.

Is that the only horse in country? :)

Pretty much so, i guess all the horses went to your country rofl

[perdurabo]

equipment is total fantasy definetly not historical one.
for egzample XIIIth century reenactors:
http://bagrit.pl/galeria/img/galeria_13/IMG_1726.jpg
http://bagrit.pl/galeria/img/galeria_13/IMG_1895.jpg
and end of XIV begining of XV century:
http://bagrit.pl/galeria/img/galeria_04/img_2130.jpg
http://bagrit.pl/galeria/img/galeria_04/img_2135.jpg

[controller]

where are the turkish ones thye outnumberd the serbs to 1-10 but its kinda wierd because the battle took place at the serbs land

[1911-a1]

Isnt there a military museum near the place where the most of the pictures were taken? Ive been there! Is that where the equipment is from?

[CyberSpec]

where are the turkish ones thye outnumberd the serbs to 1-10 but its kinda wierd because the battle took place at the serbs land

I don't think the odds were 10 : 1, but they were definately heavily in favor of the Turks.

The Ottomans (the superpower of the day) were just one of many empires that Serbia had to face in it's history.....Byzantium, Austria-Hungary, Germany, Nato....???

Nice pictures BTW, thanks for posting

[Grivas]

http://www.svibor.org/slike/fotografije/razno/_7A_0956.jpg
What does that 4x C mean?We(Greeks) have a 4x B

[ZaakM433]

Why cant the ladies dress like that now :(

[cinoeye]

battle of kosova...?
It's KosovO, not KosovA!


"Kosovo" or "Kosova"?
What's in a Name?
By John Peter Maher
Professor of Linguistics, Emeritus
Northeastern Illinois University

=======================================
"Kosovo" is a Serbian place name, more fully "kosovo polje", meaning the 'field (or plain) of blackbirds'. "Kosovo Polje" lies just outside the city of Prishtina.
Ornithology lesson: Among North Americans, Australians, and South Africans, only ornithologists can identify the species in question. Kosovo's "black bird" is no crow, nor raven, no starling nor grackle, but "turdus merula", European cousin of the North American rusty-bellied thrush ("turdus migratorius"), which Yanks call the "robin".
In Britain and Ireland "robin" is the name of another species, "erithacus rubecula".
(The "four and twenty 'blackbirds' baked in a pie", of the English rhyme, were of the species "merula", in Serbian called "kos". From this term "kosovo" is the derived possessive adjective.
Like America's harbinger of spring, the black bird called "kos" in Serbian language sings sweetly in the springtime and early summer.
For North Americans the feel of the Serbo-Croatian place name "Kosovo" can only be had from a free translation, "Field of Robins".
Albanians have borrowed the word from the Serbs, whose once overwhelming majority was driven down, especially since the Congress of Berlin, by savage aggression from Albanians incited then and in WW I by Austria-Hungary and Germany, in World War II by Mussolini's puppet Albanians, and after WW II by the discriminatory ethnic cleansing of the Stalinist dictator Josip Broz.
Native Indian place names in America have no meaning in English: e.g. "Michigan" means nothing in English. In Ojibwa "mishshikamaa" means "it is a big lake".
Just so the place names of Ireland have transparent meaning in Gaelic but are meaningless tags in the colonialist English, e.g. "Dublin" is Gaelic "dubh lin" 'black pool', and "Kildare" is "cil dara" 'church of the oak'. Just so the names of the Serbian province of Kosovo are clear Serbian formations, but have no meaning in the Albanian language.
Proof of the Serbian origin of the name and the loanword status of the immigrant Albanian term is that the word "Kosovo" has a clear etymology to anyone who knows a Slavic language, while Albanian "Kosova" is an opaque, meaningless place name in the Albanian language.

-- Peter Maher





And pictures are cool.

[SerbPVO]

And especially since the bird that we call "Kos" in Serbian, is called by the same name in Polish, Czech, Slovak....;)

http://www.ptaki.info/abc/media/p_kos-1.jpg

[I'mOnlyHalfPolish]

f**k sorry haha i don't wanna support the albanians KOSOVO!

thanks for the post cino, and i should've known better SerbPVO

[Lazarus]

that is just anual police and gandarmerie masquerade

[Flamur]

It's KosovO, not KosovA!





And pictures are cool.


Kosovo, Kosova whatever u call it have more and older history than the serbian fairytales about it.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dardania_%28Europe%29

[Lazarus]

1-There is no need to destroy perfect topic!!!!!
2-There is no writen or any other proof that albanians and ilirians,dardanians etc,...are same etnic group.
3-I can show you countles maps earlyer than 15-th century without albania to be on any of them and serbia is on every single one.

and finaly it must be albanians that build all those churches in kosovo bizantum greace and even albania.
Wait a moment they were not there!!!Who build them then???
I can show you pics of serbian church from six-th century show me some albanian monument that old.

[Flamur]

1-There is no need to destroy perfect topic!!!!!
2-There is no writen or any other proof that albanians and ilirians,dardanians etc,...are same etnic group.
3-I can show you countles maps earlyer than 15-th century without albania to be on any of them and serbia is on every single one.

and finaly it must be albanians that build all those churches in kosovo bizantum greace and even albania.
Wait a moment they were not there!!!Who build them then???
I can show you pics of serbian church from six-th century show me some albanian monument that old.

I only wanted to watch the pictures, the topic wasent ruined by me, this threads are watched by houndreds of people and i wanted to show that there is an other side of the story.

Balkan history is very complicated

The serious and non biased linguists and historians agree thet Albanians are related to the thraco-illyrians

http://www.lhhpaleo.religionstatistics.net/LHH%20balkan%20ellas.html

Albania at the time was part of Byzantine empire and Albanians like Serbs and Greeks were orthodox christians.

Churches of Kosovo from six-century were build by byzantines, when Serbs took over the area from 1200 to 1400 century claimed them as theirs, they even based their symbols and flag from them

Old Byzantine flags
http://www.oramaworld.com/images/flags/4b_300.jpghttp://www.mindspring.com/~seamilo/flag.jpg

Serbian flag
http://www.spc-innsbruck.at/radnaverzija/srpska_pravoslavna_crkva/slike/zastava.jpg


There are actually still many orthodox christian Albanians.

http://www.albanianchurch.org/

[Lokos]

where are the turkish ones thye outnumberd the serbs to 1-10 but its kinda wierd because the battle took place at the serbs land

The widely accepted ratio was 25,000 Serbs and allied contingents (Bosnians, Albanians etc) against 45,000 Ottomans and allies (including Serbian vassals).

The outcome of the battle was a tactical draw, with both sides withdrawing from the field in disorder.

Lokos

[cinoeye]

Flamur, that flage you named Serbian flag is acctualy flag of Serbian Orthodox Church.


Better exemple is Serbian Coat of the Arms, becuase of two Byzanthine simbols-Two headed Eagle and 4 firesteelrs with the cross.
Byzanthine flag-
http://www.endless-greece.com/images/flags/byzantine-flag.gif

Former Kingodm of Serbia and present day R.Serbia COA-
http://zeljko-heimer-fame.from.hr/images/cs)sr.gif

And than look at the middleage banners, war flags, COA.....

18 century Serbian COA-
http://www.qsl.net/4n1fog/knezevinasrbija.JPG


Middleage pre Ottoman banners-

http://i21.photobucket.com/albums/b252/milanwviz/razno/banerorandzbeliorao.jpghttp://s21.photobucket.com/albums/b252/milanwviz/razno/th_banercrnicrveniorao.jpghttp://i21.photobucket.com/albums/b252/milanwviz/razno/banersivioraonazutom-1.jpg
http://i21.photobucket.com/albums/b252/milanwviz/razno/banerbeliorao.jpghttp://i21.photobucket.com/albums/b252/milanwviz/razno/cs-sr-de.gif

Montenego's old flag-
http://zeljko-heimer-fame.from.hr/images/cs-cg861.gif

[Heinemann]

What does the double headed eagle represent?

[ZaakM433]

What does the double headed eagle represent?

Either the leadership of the emperor over both the secular and the religious or the rule over both the east and the west.

[Giko]

The widely accepted ratio was 25,000 Serbs and allied contingents (Bosnians, Albanians etc) against 45,000 Ottomans and allies (including Serbian vassals).

The outcome of the battle was a tactical draw, with both sides withdrawing from the field in disorder.

Lokos


There were no Bosnians. Those were Serbs lead by the Vlatko Vukovic send by Tvrtko Kotromanic who named himself "King of Serbs of Bosnia, Dalmatia, and Western Sides." The ratio is not based on any proof. It is just a rough estimate of what either side could bring to the field, however Ottomans would occasionaly mass armies of up to 200,000 so I guess they probably had much more than 45,000 and Serbs also probably had more than 25,000. Dusan could easily mass an army of about 80,000. Now,Serbia at the time was far from what it was in Dusan's time, but you also have to consider that Tvrtko sent a considerable force.

[cinoeye]

double headed eagle is a common symbol in heraldry (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heraldry) and vexillology (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vexillology). Several European nations use this symbol today, having adopted this symbol from the Byzantine Empire (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Byzantine_Empire). In Byzantine heraldry, the heads represent the dual sovereignty of the Emperor (secular and religious) and/or dominance of the Roman Emperors over both East and West. The Russian (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russia)tsars (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tsar) adopted the symbol both to position themselves as successors to the Byzantine state and to likewise symbolize their dominion over the west (Europe (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Europe)) and the east (Asia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Asia)).
The two-headed eagle appears on the coat of arms (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Coat_of_arms) of the following countries:

Albania (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Albania)
Austria-Hungary (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Austria-Hungary) (historical)
Bosnia and Herzegovina (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bosnia_and_Herzegovina):
Republika Srpska (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Republika_Srpska)
Byzantine Empire (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Byzantine_Empire) (historical)
Russian Federation (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russian_Federation)
Russian Empire (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russian_Empire) (historical)
Serbia and Montenegro (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Serbia_and_Montenegro) (historical)
Serbia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Serbia)
Montenegro (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Montenegro)It also appears on the following flags:

Flag of Albania (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flag_of_Albania)
Flag of Montenegro (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flag_of_Montenegro)
Flag of Serbia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flag_of_Serbia)
the flag of the Ecumenical Patriarch of Constantinople (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Patriarch_of_Constantinople).
the flag of Mount Athos (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mount_Athos)

[ZaakM433]

^ What I said only bullet proofed for stupid people, not to mention ripped off of wikipedia verbatim without a source listed. Even if it is obvious where its from you should still list a source.

[Lokos]

but you also have to consider that Tvrtko sent a considerable force.

He sent 5,000 men, by most counts.


however Ottomans would occasionaly mass armies of up to 200,000

The Ottoman OOB indicated some 143,000 men in 1389. For the entire empire, that is.


Those were Serbs lead by the Vlatko Vukovic send by Tvrtko Kotromanic who named himself "King of Serbs of Bosnia, Dalmatia, and Western Sides."

Serbs, Bosnians - whatever. They were an allied contingent from the Kingdom of Bosnia.


Dusan could easily mass an army of about 80,000. Now,Serbia at the time was far from what it was in Dusan's time

Considering how many Serbian lords sided with the Ottomans, it's a surprise they managed to muster the force they did.

Lokos

[Lt. James Anderson]

They were an allied contingent from the Kingdom of Bosnia.

If I remember correctly the Kingdom of Bosnia was just one of the Serbian states at the time. There was no Bosnians (as Serb and Croat converts to Islam call themselves today). At the time I read that book I still believed the media fairytales about bad Serbs and poor innocent Muslims...

Nice pics. It would be better if they used the authentic replicas of armor and clothing of the time.

[SerbPVO]

What Serbian Knights do in their off-days....its something we call "celicenje", literally, to make oneself of steel.

http://www.svibor.org/slike/fotografije/sretenje%202006/I3010078.JPG

http://www.svibor.org/slike/fotografije/sretenje%202006/I3010082.JPG

http://www.svibor.org/slike/fotografije/sretenje%202006/I3010099.JPG

http://www.svibor.org/slike/fotografije/sretenje%202006/I3010100.JPG

http://www.svibor.org/slike/fotografije/sretenje%202006/I3010105.JPG

[Fazla]

Tvrtko named himself King of Serbia and Bosnia, not Serbs. The word is serbljem. Now if you want to tell me the word "serbljem" is more similiar to "srba" instead of "srbije"...

Good pics btw

[krejzifrik]

By the mid-14th century, Bosnia reached a peak under ban Tvrtko Kotromanić (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tvrtko_Kotromani%C4%87) who came into power in 1353 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1353). Tvrtko made Bosnia an independent state and is thought by many historians to have been initially crowned in Mile near today city of Visoko (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Visoko) where was a state residency by that time.
He went on to claim not only Bosnia and Hum, but the surrounding lands as well:

in 1377 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1377) he was crowned Bošnjanski kralj Srbljem i Bosni i Pomorju i Zapadnim stranama1 in a Franciscan monastery in Mile, in the city of Visoko near Sarajevo. This coronation is believed to have happened as a token of reaffirmation of his suzerainty over Serbia, and some believe he adopted the name Stephanus (Стефан/Stefan) to emulate the Nemanjić (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nemanji%C4%87) dynasty. The exact location of the coronation is disputed, as some historians claim that this actually occurred in the Serb Orthodox (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Serb_Orthodox) Mileševo monastery (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mile%C5%A1evo) by the grave of Serb patron saint St. Sava (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/St._Sava).
by 1390 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1390), Tvrtko I expanded his empire to include a part of Croatia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Croatia) and Dalmatia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dalmatia), and assumed the title of Bosnian King of Rascia, Bosnia, Dalmatia, Croatia and the Littoral.Stjepan Tvrtko I's full title listed subject peoples and geographical dependencies, following the Byzantine norm. At the peak of his power, he was King of Serbia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Serbia), Croatia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Croatia), Bosnia, Hum, Usora, Soli, Dalmatia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dalmatia), Donji Kraji etc.

History of Bosnia and Herzegovina (958–1463)

From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

[larryzou]

nice pic ! where ?

[cinoeye]

Come on people, Wikipedia is not Brittanica.
Larryzou, if you ask about those winter swimming pics, that was in Belgrade. River Sava have to riverbeds in that area, so whan was created to be like a lake.
Pretty nice and crowded, specialy during the summer.
I't called Ada Ciganlija(no way for me to translate that) or you can call it Sava's Lake, or Belgrade Sea.
No english but chack here- http://www.adaciganlija.co.yu/
And check this page, you'll love it- http://www.adaciganlija.co.yu/galerije/galerija.jsp?id=193

[Lazarus]

Stefan Tvrtko I Kotromanic
(1353 – 1391)

Tvrtko I Kotromanic was the Bosnian "ban" from 1353 until 1377., the king of Serbs, Bosnia, Seaside and the West Sides from 1377 until 1390 and the king of Raška, Bosnia, Dalmatia, Croatia and Seaside from 1390 until 1391.
Tvrtko the First was the son of the duke Vladislav Kotromanic and Jelena Šubic. After death of his uncle ban Stjepan II he takes over the throne in 1353. The very first year of his rule his father helped him. After his father’s death his energetic mother helped him. Tvrtko came to power in the period of the great battles, which Hungarian king Lajoš the Great led against Venice because of its estate in Dalmatia and also against Serbs. As the Hungarian vassal he and his mother put lots of efforts to turn Dalmatian towns against Venice. Despite all of this Hungarians were not satisfied by his efforts so they forced him to give them Hum to the river of Neretva as the dowry of Jelisaveta, daughter of Stjepan II, the wife of the king Arthur. When Hungarians tried to put more pressure on Tvrtko he decided to answer them using his army. Hungarians sent two armed forces against Bosnia but both forces were defeated: the first one under the leadership of Lajoš on the foot of the town of Sokolac, the other one on the foot of Srebrenik. After these battles Tvrtko tried to strengthen his grip on power that caused the riot of landownership in 1366. The head of the riot was Tvrtko’s younger brother Vuk. The riot became an open war and as the result of these events Tvrtko and his mother were expelled from Bosnia. Vuk was appointed the new governor. Because of that Tvrtko asked the help of the Hungarian king and by his help he came back on power in Bosnia. During 1366 and 1367 Tvrtko succeeded in his intention to calm his land down and his brother had to flee to Dubrovnik. Afterwards Vuk tried to activate high Vatican’s authorities and the Hungarian Court in achieving his goals but it wasn’t successful.
By the death of Serbian king Uros in 1371 died out the last member of the dynasty Nemanjic. When the king Vukasin died in the battle on the river Marica in 1371 there was not a genuine Serbian ruler any more. After these events which had had serious consequences for the entire Serbianship Tvrtko came out with his intention to sit in the Serbian throne. As he was the grandson of Jelisaveta, the daughter of the king Dragutin, which was married with his grandfather Stjepan Kotroman – that would say he was Nemanjic taking into consideration the female members of that family- he asked for the Serbian Crown..
He had very good relations with the duke Lazar. At that time Lazar was the owner of Moravska Serbia and was as well as Tvrtko the neighbour of the very aggressive head of a tribal state Nikola Altomanovic whose rule was spread on areas from Rudnik to the coast, along the river Drina and along towns like Gacko, Bileca, and Trebinje. Nikola Altomanovic openly helped Tvrtko`s brother Vuk in the above mentioned riot, he also fought against Dubrovnik and he took over Rudnik from Lazar. He wanted to seize Prizren and to become the main ruler of Serbian lands. Uniting their forces Tvrtko and the Duke Lazar defeated Nikola Altomanovic and destroyed his power in 1373. By sharing his estate the Bosnian ban Tvrtko joined part of Serbian lands in Podrinje to Bosnia. As the ruler of one part of the former Nemanjic` estate Tvrtko accepted to tie his rule to their tradition. That`s why it wasn`t very difficult for him to accept the attitude of his chief administrator Vlatko who persuaded him that the Serbian Crown was intended to be his. Tvrtko The First was crowned for the king on the newly conquered area. The act of crowning probably took place on The Holy Dimitrus Day in the autumn of 1377 in the monastery of Mileševa, the place of the remarkable cult of Saint Sava, the founder of Serbian Orthodox Church. He was crowned by the crown of Serbian Royal Dynasty – the king of Serbs, Bosnia, Seaside and the West Sides. He added the name Stefan that used to be symbolic medieval custom among all Serbian rulers. The crowning of Tvrtko was accepted by all prominent Serbian rulers as well as by Dubrovnik and Venice and he rising himself to the level of ruler and adopting titles and ceremonial of Serbian Court he tightened his power in Bosnia.
After the death of king Lajoš The Great in 1382 Hungarian queen trying to win Tvrtko over to her side gave him the town of Kotor in 1385. Tvrtko was very interested in it because he wanted Bosnia to get its exit to sea and in that way not to be dependent of Dubrovnik’s port anymore. Therefore he founded the town Novi in 1382 as the fortified Bosnian port. When the king Tvrtko started to build his town he named it after The Holy Stephen, in memory and remembrance of his sacrifice. After a period of time the name was altered to "Novi". When the first merchant ships began to carry salt from Novi appeared the first problems with Dubrovnik. Dubrovnik considered trade and carriage of salt as its monopoly and therefore the new Tvrtko`s fortress was dangerous competition. The position for the new town was carefully chosen in accordance with the need of the Bosnian State. The chosen locality was on the north side of the entrance of the Bay of Boka Kotorska in the district called Dracevica. The building of the first fortress started at the very end of May in 1382 and was finished in September – the same year. The first fortress was at the very coast of Topla`s bay. The location of the terrain was suitable for defense of possible attacks that was very significant at the time. Beside this there were good facilities for docking of boats and ships and building of a port near the town. Novi started its life by opening of the square for trade in salt with warehouses round it on the river Sutorina near the town in August 1382. The foundation of Novi had in its root the very clear idea and the aim to represent the square for trade in salt.
Tvrtko wasn’t satisfied by taking over Kotor in 1385, he also wanted to take over the whole Dalmatia. Soon he took over Klis “the cradle of the family Šubic “in 1387. He was stopped for a while because at the time Turkey attacked Serbia and Bosnia. A part of Turkish army was defeated near Bileca in 1388. In the battle of Kosovo polje in 1389 Tvrtko sent a part of his army under the lead of the duke Vlatko Vukovic, the winner of Bileca battle. The Bosnian unit had little loss during the battle so that the duke Vlatko informed Tvrtko that the Christians were winners. There is no doubt that Tvrtko fought against Turks in Kosovo`s battle as the Serbian king who was obliged to protect lands of his parents and their ancestors – The Serbian refinement. He was sure that his army and the forces of the Serbian regional rulers had won the battle of Kosovo Polje. Accordingly Tvrtko sent letters to all Christian lands spreading good news about his big success. Among many replied letters there was the stylized one from Florence written by well-known humanist Colluccio Salutati who praised and glorified the kingdom of Bosnia which had been given blessed opportunity to fight and defeat such enemy, he also praised the heroes who killed the sultan Murat, and the very king who won that magnificent battle which will never be forgotten.
In the summer of 1390 towns like Split, Trogir, Sibenik as well as islands like Brac, Hvar and Korcula were subdued by Tvrtko. Tvrtko had genuine power over Dalmatian towns and almost entire Croatia except the town of Zadar. About his short rulership over Croatia a little data remained. Among some Latin papers Tvrtko was mentioned for the first time on the 10th July 1390 as the king of Bosnia, Dalmatia, Croatia and seaside. He died suddenly at the height of his fame and success in March of 1391.
Tvrtko`s death spell the end to the brilliant period of Bosnian history. Regional rulers started to strengthen their power to disadvantage of the power of the Bosnian kingdom. The absence of the firm land organization accelerated the fall of the rulers' authority. The king's death caused the negative, bad period for Bosnia and short after the whole development of Bosnia was redirected in a wrong way.


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Charter to the Republic of Dubrovnik
english
http://www.rastko.org.yu/rastko-bo/istorija/srednjivek/tkotromanic-dubrovniku_eng.html
serbian
http://www.rastko.org.yu/rastko-bo/istorija/srednjivek/tkotromanic-dubrovniku_l.html

[saladin]

What Serbian Knights do in their off-days....its something we call "celicenje", literally, to make oneself of steel.




I have seen the Russians doing the same thing. Is this something related to orthodox cristianity or slavic tradition? I know Turkish greeks dive to bosphorus waters during the orthodox easter.

[SerbPVO]

Probably some sort of Slavic, pagan tradition that later became part of Orthodox Christian rituals.

[Giko]

He sent 5,000 men, by most counts.



The Ottoman OOB indicated some 143,000 men in 1389. For the entire empire, that is.



Serbs, Bosnians - whatever. They were an allied contingent from the Kingdom of Bosnia.



Considering how many Serbian lords sided with the Ottomans, it's a surprise they managed to muster the force they did.

Lokos


Yes, but the most important players among Serbs, Brankovic, Lazar and Tvrtko were united. The campaign against the Serbia was one of great importance for Ottomans and, considering that a pillaging gangs which were destroyed by Vukovic at Bileca had 18,000 men, it is reasonable to say that Turkish force under the leadership of Sultan Murad was much much larger. I think Tvrtko's numbers were more like 7,000-8,000. I think that was an estimate made by Corovic, but I'm not sure.

[Giko]

By the mid-14th century, Bosnia reached a peak under ban Tvrtko Kotromanić (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tvrtko_Kotromani%C4%87) who came into power in 1353 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1353). Tvrtko made Bosnia an independent state and is thought by many historians to have been initially crowned in Mile near today city of Visoko (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Visoko) where was a state residency by that time.
He went on to claim not only Bosnia and Hum, but the surrounding lands as well:

in 1377 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1377) he was crowned Bošnjanski kralj Srbljem i Bosni i Pomorju i Zapadnim stranama1 in a Franciscan monastery in Mile, in the city of Visoko near Sarajevo. This coronation is believed to have happened as a token of reaffirmation of his suzerainty over Serbia, and some believe he adopted the name Stephanus (Стефан/Stefan) to emulate the Nemanjić (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nemanji%C4%87) dynasty. The exact location of the coronation is disputed, as some historians claim that this actually occurred in the Serb Orthodox (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Serb_Orthodox) Mileševo monastery (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mile%C5%A1evo) by the grave of Serb patron saint St. Sava (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/St._Sava).
by 1390 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1390), Tvrtko I expanded his empire to include a part of Croatia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Croatia) and Dalmatia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dalmatia), and assumed the title of Bosnian King of Rascia, Bosnia, Dalmatia, Croatia and the Littoral.Stjepan Tvrtko I's full title listed subject peoples and geographical dependencies, following the Byzantine norm. At the peak of his power, he was King of Serbia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Serbia), Croatia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Croatia), Bosnia, Hum, Usora, Soli, Dalmatia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dalmatia), Donji Kraji etc.

History of Bosnia and Herzegovina (958–1463)

From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


Interesting...rofl Could you provide a manuscript which says that? Or any other, for that manner, which mentions that people in Bosnia are Bosnjaci and not Serbs?

[Giko]

By the way, in case you didn't know, Wikipedia is not a reliable source. Anyone can write whatever they want, and the consequences of this policy are visible in the scrambling you provided.

[Giko]

Tvrtko named himself King of Serbia and Bosnia, not Serbs. The word is serbljem. Now if you want to tell me the word "serbljem" is more similiar to "srba" instead of "srbije"...

Good pics btw

:cantbeli:

Fazla ever heard of padezi?rofl Damn man you are dumb. You even managed to forget your own languange, or is that some new gramatical rule introduced by Sidran and other "intellectuals" of his level. If it says Serbljem, it is, for the beggining, not feminine rod, as word Srbija is. It is srednji rod, like the "narod" which means people. If he was to say King of Serbia he would say Kralj Srbijom, but when he says Kralj Serbljem, it means Serbs, as a nation, not Serbia as a state. It is a tricky padez, but it seems to be akuzativ koga? sta? in this case Serbljem. Serblje, always meant Serbs, plural, and Serbljem is of the Serbs. Need some more linguistic clarifications?

[cinoeye]

Here is some interesting COA of Kotromanic Serbian family-
http://galeb.etf.bg.ac.yu/~preki/vojska/grb_kotr.gif

[spale]

Here is some interesting COA of Kotromanic Serbian family-
http://galeb.etf.bg.ac.yu/~preki/vojska/grb_kotr.gif


French inspired.

[krejzifrik]

I don't want to flame this topic really....

But the fact is that Bosnian state in pre-Ottoman period consisted mostly from Bogumils and Catholics.

Orthodox, or Serbs as you prefer to call it, didn't had much to do with it...

Let's consider it this way.... if Serbs ruled Bosnia, wouldn't than be logical to have one united empire with Serbia, Raska or whatever you call it...
(one people - one state)?

As most of Serbs in forum mentioned, there was strong connection between Serbia and Byzantine empire. But at the same time, Bosnia fought wars versus more-less all of their neighbours (and most of them because Bogumil religion). That was the reason why most of Bogumils converted to Islam when Ottomans came (because they were constantly harrased by Catholic and Orthodox church).

Anyway i would like to avoid this quotation war from both sides, and if needed we can start new thread in other sections of forum where we can discuss this matter.... This is strictly photos and video....

And one more point what i would like to mention:
I believe that today we do exaggerate religious feelings of our ancestors. They had much more conflicts/deals based on other basis than religious one.

[krejzifrik]

Here is some interesting COA of Kotromanic Serbian family-
http://galeb.etf.bg.ac.yu/~preki/vojska/grb_kotr.gif

the best COA/flag Bosnians ever had.... :-D

[CyberSpec]

I don't want to flame this topic really....

But the fact is that Bosnian state in pre-Ottoman period consisted mostly from Bogumils and Catholics.

Orthodox, or Serbs as you prefer to call it, didn't had much to do with it...

Let's consider it this way.... if Serbs ruled Bosnia, wouldn't than be logical to have one united empire with Serbia, Raska or whatever you call it...
(one people - one state)?

Bogumils and Catholics are not an ethnicity.

The nobles frequently changed allegiance between Rome and Byzantium, depending on the political advantage they could gain. You have to keep in mind that the Serbs were still relatively new converts to Christianity at the time. Also, there wasn't yet, the strict division between Orthodox and Catholic we see today.

The common people were still essentially pagan at heart with only a thin Christian cover on the surface. Even today, a lot of the Orthodox traditions are really pagan ones given a Christian makeover......There are some historians who think that even Car Dusan was probably a pagan, due to his hostility towards the Church.



As most of Serbs in forum mentioned, there was strong connection between Serbia and Byzantine empire.

There was a strong cultural Byzantine influence in the court, but there was also a lot of rivalry as well, including a lot of wars. The Byzantines saw the Slavs (in general) as a threat. By selling their version of Christianity to them, they hoped to pacify them

[cinoeye]

Crazyfrik, I guess you realy like that Serbian COA?
Also Serbs had a lot of states, not just Serbia.
Ther was Zeta, Raska, Duklja, Montenegro, Bosnia....

[Giko]

I don't want to flame this topic really....

But the fact is that Bosnian state in pre-Ottoman period consisted mostly from Bogumils and Catholics.

Orthodox, or Serbs as you prefer to call it, didn't had much to do with it...

Let's consider it this way.... if Serbs ruled Bosnia, wouldn't than be logical to have one united empire with Serbia, Raska or whatever you call it...
(one people - one state)?

As most of Serbs in forum mentioned, there was strong connection between Serbia and Byzantine empire. But at the same time, Bosnia fought wars versus more-less all of their neighbours (and most of them because Bogumil religion). That was the reason why most of Bogumils converted to Islam when Ottomans came (because they were constantly harrased by Catholic and Orthodox church).

Anyway i would like to avoid this quotation war from both sides, and if needed we can start new thread in other sections of forum where we can discuss this matter.... This is strictly photos and video....

And one more point what i would like to mention:
I believe that today we do exaggerate religious feelings of our ancestors. They had much more conflicts/deals based on other basis than religious one.

You are ignoring almost every historical document related to the early Bosnian history, and also writing randomly what you would like to be history.:roll: If all what you wrote is correct, then please explain to me why did King Tvrtko declare himself King of Serbs? Why did Ban Ninoslav in his declaration to Dubrovnik mentioned Vlahs as the ones traveling through the Bosnia, and Serbs as the ones living in it? Why did Konstantin Porfirogenetus in his famous De Administrando Imperio marked Serbs as the people living East of line Cetina-Pliva-Vrbas? How come Jovan Kinam, calls Bosnian Ban Boric (1154-1164) as a ruler of dalmatian land, while using term dalmatian for Serbs? Why did Pop Dukljanin write that Serbia is divided into two parts. Raska to the East of River Drina, and Bosnia to the west of river Drina? Most of people in Bosnia didn't convert to Islam, and the best proof of that is the fact that since the population count has been done Serbs outnumbered Muslims, up to about 1970's. Not to even mention that Serbian population suffered much greater losses than Muslim did during the cruel Ottoman rule. Not to mention that almost entire Muslim population of eastern Bosnia came there from Serbia after they were forced out by Karadjordje. You say that it should be "one people, one state?" Welcome to history of Middle Ages, when national states either didn't exist or were very weak and dependent on nobility, which often fought each other. Kotromanici always fought Nemanjici, and always used term "King of Raska" for Nemanjici because if they said "King of Serbs" it would mean their king too. Nation state is a result of Nationalism during the 19th century.
You also made a very ignorant point about Orthodox Harrasing Bogumils? Well according to you there was no Orthodox faith in Bosnia? Which one is it?:slap: They didn't convert to Islam because they were herrased, but because in Ottoman Empire as a Muslim you didn't have to pay such gruesome taxes like "danak u krvi" or "tax in blood" and Harac, or working several days of the week for a Muslim Spahija. Anyway, as Vuk already told you, religion and nationality are two different things. There were plenty Serbs, Catholics in places like Dubrovnik and Boka. Off course there are some 2 million Serbs Muslims in Bosnia right now. You are ethnically a Serb (maybe Croat) of Muslim faith, and if you are not ready to accept that Serbs were the people who settled Bosnia in 7th. century than please tell me one mention of Bosnians as some Slavic tribe? Or one document which disproves this claim, supported by the De Administrando Imperio.

[Giko]

People like Mesa Selimovic and Emir Kusturica (two of the most accomplished Bosnian Muslims) accepted their Serbian nationality, while retaining their Muslim faith. Omer-Beg Sulejmanpasic Skopljak, the grandson of Sulejman Pasa Skopljak, the one who slaughtered Belgrade's population in 1814, wrote this poem in 1897:

SRPSTVU
Iz mog srca, iz plamenih grudi,
iz uzdaha, iz duše i snova,
tebi, Srpstvo, moja srećo draga,
leti evo, laka pjesma ova.

Ti si nebo pred kojijem padam
i čijem se veličanstvu divim;
tebi srce, krv, misli i duša
otimlju se s ushićenjem živim.

Ti mi daješ krila sokolova,
ti me dižeš gori pod oblake,
s te visine gledam prošlost tvoju,
gledam slavu i tvoje junake;

Gledam dive pod kalpakom sjajnim,
na kalpaku perjanice vite.
Po plećima smjelih barjaktara
udaraju one zlatne kite.

Gledam, gledam, pa im letim živo,
braću ljubim u junačka čela,
a iz oka od sreće i milja
otimlje se jedna suza vrela.

Suza čista, suza nade moje,
suza jasna u sred mračne tmuše,
suza vjerna ljubavi i krvi
tebi, Srpstvo, dušo moje duše!
Zora, 1897, br. 2, str. 1.

By the way, Skopljak family was descended from a nobelman Mihajlo, who converted to Islam taking name Ali-Pasa.

[G3-X]

Flamur, that flage you named Serbian flag is acctualy flag of Serbian Orthodox Church.


Better exemple is Serbian Coat of the Arms, becuase of two Byzanthine simbols-Two headed Eagle and 4 firesteelrs with the cross.
Byzanthine flag-
http://www.endless-greece.com/images/flags/byzantine-flag.gif

Former Kingodm of Serbia and present day R.Serbia COA-
http://zeljko-heimer-fame.from.hr/images/cs%29sr.gif

And than look at the middleage banners, war flags, COA.....

18 century Serbian COA-
http://www.qsl.net/4n1fog/knezevinasrbija.JPG


Middleage pre Ottoman banners-

http://i21.photobucket.com/albums/b252/milanwviz/razno/banerorandzbeliorao.jpghttp://s21.photobucket.com/albums/b252/milanwviz/razno/th_banercrnicrveniorao.jpghttp://i21.photobucket.com/albums/b252/milanwviz/razno/banersivioraonazutom-1.jpg
http://i21.photobucket.com/albums/b252/milanwviz/razno/banerbeliorao.jpghttp://i21.photobucket.com/albums/b252/milanwviz/razno/cs-sr-de.gif

Montenego's old flag-
http://zeljko-heimer-fame.from.hr/images/cs-cg861.gif

Freemason logo ???

What Is The New World Order? - Conspiracy Documentary

http://www.dumpalink.com/media/1140874936/Conspiracy_Documentary_

http://img359.imageshack.us/img359/3/cjxyyvdh2wj.jpg

[krejzifrik]

Crazyfrik, I guess you realy like that Serbian COA?
Also Serbs had a lot of states, not just Serbia.
Ther was Zeta, Raska, Duklja, Montenegro, Bosnia....

Bosnian COA
spot the difference
yes i like it, i use it for my avatar as you can see

@CyberSpec - true

@Giko - can you please try to keep out of personal insults...

and here are the results in short version

1. King Tvrtko - why king of Serbs?

Bosnian banus Stjepan Tvrtko Kotromanic, gathering under his rule not only "small land" Bosnia but also Usora, Hum's area, Travunja, Primorje, Donji Krajevi, Zapadne Strane and Podrinje, has declared himself as the king of "Srblji, Bosnia and Primorje", by which act Bosnia became an independent kingdom and seceded from Croatian-Hungarian state.

that's why... because Bosnia couldn't claim status of kingdom and thus Tvrtko couldn't be king. This way he managed to secure better status for Bosnia in medieval Europe.

2. Ban Ninoslav - charter?

In the name of the father, son and the holy ghost! I, God's slave, Matej, branch of Ninoslav, great bosnian ban, swear unto the prince of Dubrovnik, Dubrovnik's Žan Dandole (Gianni Dandolli) and all the regions of Dubrovnik. I swear just as Ban Kulin swore before me: For the Vlachs to walk freely as they did in the time of Ban Kulin, freely without deceit and evil...thus if a Vlach deceives a Serb, may he be held in the Ban's court.

free passage....
I would suggets further reading about Ban Ninoslav, so you can see for yourself what he did and how he felt about serbs (if you really insist), so you wouldn't talk nonsense....

3. De Administrando Imperio ?
At the time it was written (950.) Bosnia was divided between Serbia and Croatia... that's why.... btw. this was well known controversy about this work, and i don't intend to go into it with more details since last 100 yrs varoius discussions couldn't support any side claims.

4. Ban Boric (1154-1164)
Byzantine writer Cinnamus stated about Ban Boric:
- allied to Hungarians
- Bosnia isn't under rule from Serbian lords, but is independent
- fought wars versus Byzantine empire

and again i would suggest you to check other sources about your statment other than one single serbian site that claims everything what you mentioned here...

over and out :)

[Giko]

Bosnian COA
spot the difference
yes i like it, i use it for my avatar as you can see

@CyberSpec - true

@Giko - can you please try to keep out of personal insults...

and here are the results in short version

1. King Tvrtko - why king of Serbs?

Bosnian banus Stjepan Tvrtko Kotromanic, gathering under his rule not only "small land" Bosnia but also Usora, Hum's area, Travunja, Primorje, Donji Krajevi, Zapadne Strane and Podrinje, has declared himself as the king of "Srblji, Bosnia and Primorje", by which act Bosnia became an independent kingdom and seceded from Croatian-Hungarian state.

that's why... because Bosnia couldn't claim status of kingdom and thus Tvrtko couldn't be king. This way he managed to secure better status for Bosnia in medieval Europe.

2. Ban Ninoslav - charter?

In the name of the father, son and the holy ghost! I, God's slave, Matej, branch of Ninoslav, great bosnian ban, swear unto the prince of Dubrovnik, Dubrovnik's Žan Dandole (Gianni Dandolli) and all the regions of Dubrovnik. I swear just as Ban Kulin swore before me: For the Vlachs to walk freely as they did in the time of Ban Kulin, freely without deceit and evil...thus if a Vlach deceives a Serb, may he be held in the Ban's court.

free passage....
I would suggets further reading about Ban Ninoslav, so you can see for yourself what he did and how he felt about serbs (if you really insist), so you wouldn't talk nonsense....

3. De Administrando Imperio ?
At the time it was written (950.) Bosnia was divided between Serbia and Croatia... that's why.... btw. this was well known controversy about this work, and i don't intend to go into it with more details since last 100 yrs varoius discussions couldn't support any side claims.

4. Ban Boric (1154-1164)
Byzantine writer Cinnamus stated about Ban Boric:
- allied to Hungarians
- Bosnia isn't under rule from Serbian lords, but is independent
- fought wars versus Byzantine empire

and again i would suggest you to check other sources about your statment other than one single serbian site that claims everything what you mentioned here...

over and out :)

Again, wikipedia is not a reliable source, but since your own knowledge is limited, I'll let you use it. I'm not using any web site, the only one I could would be rastko.org, but it is too tedious to search through hundereds of pages of stuff in order to find one passage. Instead I have some microfilms of those charters and declarations, and what I read in the books when I was in college.


Tvrtko never crowned himself "Kralj Srblji", you are changing the letters here. He crowned himself as the "Kralj Serbljem" and since Serblje represents older wersion of Srbi, it can only mean King of Serbs.


Ban Ninoslav, clearly indicated that the ones passing through the Bosnia, are Vlachs (that is how he called people from Dubrovnik) and the ones actually in Bosnia are Serbs. With your passage you just confirmed what I said. How he felt about Serbs?:cantbeli: Well enlight me please and tell me how did he feel about Serbs?


De Administrado Imperio, happens to be the only document from around that time which describes, political and social conditions in that region. It is another problem that certain group of people doesen't like it so it choses to ignore it. Among other things it tells about the regions where Croats and Serbs settled, and the border goes around the line Cetina-Pliva-Vrbas. Since it doesen't mention Bosnians as one of the Slavic tribes who settled the Balkans, nor is there any document mentioning Bosnians as one of the Slavic tribes, it is reasonable to say that Bosnia had to be either Croatian or Serbian, and the dispute between those two possibilities is settled by these documents.

Jovan Cinam, stated that Boric was "egzhart Bosne dalmatske" while he used Dalmat for Serb.

This the Ninoslav's Declaration, original, and well, well, well. isnt that a perfectly understandable old Serbian. same one used in Dubrovnik and Serbia. By the way, this is the original document held in Dubrovnik.
http://http://i93.photobucket.com/albums/l56/Giko_2006/PoveljaBanaNinoslava.gif

This is Tvrtko's Declaration to Dubrovnik in which among other things he mentions his ancestors as "Gospoda Srpska" or "Serbian nobility". At the bottom on the right side with big letters he wrote "King of Serbs".

http://http://i93.photobucket.com/albums/l56/Giko_2006/PoveljaTvrtkaKotromanica.jpg

I have several other documents but since we never talked about them I won't use them.


For some reason it won't let me post the pictures.

[Lazarus]

1-Source please!Book let's say.If it was writen prior to 1980 I am going to read it.
2-Not a single document left after any of "bans" that administrate bosnia at the times mention "bosniaks",bogumils did exist but they were not etnicaly anithing else but serbs and croats fulled by few priests and their supporters that escaped from bulgaria and later from serbia and came to area around riwer neretva and baptized slav/serb abd croat tribes that lived around wich stil were pagans and accepted christianity only in 12th/13th century.

edit:this is response to "krejzifrik" post

[toto_labi]

Dans la bataille de KOSOVES n'avait pas seulement des serbes. Il y avait des forces de toute le Ballkan, et comme c'est une terre albanaise oui il y avait des princes albanais.
Les Turks ont gagne la bataille et on n'a plus etendu des serbes qui se sont reduits en rangs de "raja"=peuple mouton (dite par les turks). Mais les albanais en cours de 4-5 siecles d'histoire qui ont suivi ont de toute temps resiste et faire des grandes rebellions jusqu'au 1912 ou ils ont gagne leur independance.Ils ont gagne leur independance seulement par leurs epees et pas comme les serbes et grecs (i qifsha te 2) par l'entremise de la russie tsariste.
Alors arrete de nous faire pleurer sur votre sort et d'essayer de voler des terres de voisins qui ne vous appartiennent pas et regardez l'histoire droit dans les yeux et sortez des lecons.
Vos mains ont bcp. de sang de vos voisins et il faudrait bcp. de temps qu'on vous considere comme egale et digne de confiance.

[Lazarus]

And again you'r trying to tell someone else history as yours.If it's not sad it would be funny.

[snark.si]

Now i know why nobody likes Albanians.

[zealot]

Fixed your images for you Giko.. (although I can't understand what they say, but nevertheless, visually, they look interesting..


......
This the Ninoslav's Declaration, original, and well, well, well. isnt that a perfectly understandable old Serbian. same one used in Dubrovnik and Serbia. By the way, this is the original document held in Dubrovnik.
http://i93.photobucket.com/albums/l56/Giko_2006/PoveljaBanaNinoslava.gif


This is Tvrtko's Declaration to Dubrovnik in which among other things he mentions his ancestors as "Gospoda Srpska" or "Serbian nobility". At the bottom on the right side with big letters he wrote "King of Serbs".
http://i93.photobucket.com/albums/l56/Giko_2006/PoveljaTvrtkaKotromanica.jpg



....

[Lazarus]

Second one english

http://www.rastko.org.yu/rastko-bo/istorija/srednjivek/tkotromanic-dubrovniku_eng.html

[Giko]

Fixed your images for you Giko.. (although I can't understand what they say, but nevertheless, visually, they look interesting..


Thanks man. I apreciate it. If you know Serbian and can read Cyrilic letter, you can see that Serbs are mentioned in some form. Now they have been translated into the modern Serbian (they are original documents kept in Dubrovnik) and the first one refers to the laws regarding the Vlachs (that is how rulers of Bosnia called people from Durbovnik) traveling therough the Bosnia. If they have some legal issues with the Serbs they are supposed to follow a certain procedure etc. The second one is much tougher to read but after some experts translated it, several references to Serbs were discovered. First, in the first line he mentions his ancestors as "my parents, Serbian nobility", and then the large writing on the bottom says "King of Serbs". The first one was written somehwere between 1232 and 1235. The second one was from 1382.

[zealot]

@ Giko & Lazarus, thanx guys