Thread Split: Military and "Brainwashing."

[stateofequilibrium]

From a comment scm made in the "Army of One" thread, do you believe there is a necessary amount of indoctrination in the military that is NEEDED and could probably be construed as, loosely-termed, brainwashing?

Such as unit integrity, certain creeds, ideals that one should uphold, that are not necessarily taught or upheld in the civilian world while trying to carefully preserve free-will and independent thought?

[MaDuce]

no

[ibstolidude]

From a comment scm made in the "Army of One" thread, do you believe there is a necessary amount of indoctrination in the military that is NEEDED and could probably be construed as, loosely-termed, brainwashing?

Such as unit integrity, certain creeds, ideals that one should uphold, that are not necessarily taught or upheld in the civilian world while trying to carefully preserve free-will and independent thought?
Is your family raising you with a certain set of ideals such as: Do not steal, brainwashing?

Is your mother telling you the importance of good brushing and requiring you to do so brainwashing?

You asked 2 question
1) is indoctrination needed - for most soldiers yes.
2) is it brainwashing - No

[ArmedPacifist]

I wouldn't call it brainwashing, but the more time you spend in the army, the more you see things a certain way that someone outside of the military would see differently. I'm not quite sure how to explain it, but it's like having a completely different mindset.

[Truthsayer]

A psycology-study of cults and braindwashing usually have 5 things that implicate a brainwashing. If 3 or more is filled, it's considered an cult or example. Generally and army, sports-club (of fanatics), a dungeons-n-dragons-club of nerds in the basement or an anime-club will fill 2 of them.

[ibstolidude]

A psycology-study of cults and braindwashing usually have 5 things that implicate a brainwashing. If 3 or more is filled, it's considered an cult or example. Generally and army, sports-club (of fanatics), a dungeons-n-dragons-club of nerds in the basement or an anime-club will fill 2 of them.
well post the 5 things so that we can see that our parents, schools, friends/social groups, all have these in common.

new identification,
behavior modification,
mystical manipulation,
mind-altering techniques, and
confession eliciting.

[Truthsayer]

If you wanna ridicule studies done by your own countrymen regarding cults, then go ahead.

[ibstolidude]

If you wanna ridicule studies done by your own countrymen regarding cults, then go ahead.
oh so we result to nation prattle?

Post your study? Did this quell a chance to start a flame? Not open to debate are you?

Those same tenants that some would propose to use for for the stategic processes of "mind control" are also applicable to every day life to include what I posted previously. Why bring forward a topic you are not prepared to debate - or did you just wish to show soldiers as mindless zombies.

And in a nation of 290 Million it is possible to disagree with someones "study" and thesis on a specific topic. So thanks I will.

Hey I'll be damned, this site requires 2 of the 5!


nananananananannanana leader - (sings Homer to music of batman)
Pass the nourishing gruel

[Truthsayer]

If you even bothered to read my post it stated that 2 out of 5 doesn't make a group an cult, just an dedicated group.

But you rather went into flame-mode then reading, again.

[ibstolidude]

If you even bothered to read my post it stated that 2 out of 5 doesn't make a group an cult, just an dedicated group.

But you rather went into flame-mode then reading, again.
Actually you asked a question then didn't actually want to discuss answers

I did read your posts PERHAPs you should. The word dedicated is only posted 3 times in this thread. twice (just before and in your quote) here in my post and once in the last post. (the one from which I just quoted)

In fact nowhere prior to your last post did you even mention the word GROUP or the word DEDICATED.


What you posted in relation to 2 out of 5 =
A psycology-study of cults and braindwashing usually have 5 things that implicate a brainwashing. If 3 or more is filled, it's considered an cult or example. Generally and army, sports-club (of fanatics), a dungeons-n-dragons-club of nerds in the basement or an anime-club will fill 2 of them. - nowhere does it mention ANYTHING about a dedicated group.

I posted in response that
we can see that our parents, schools, friends/social groups, all have these in common. If that to you is a flame versus an invataion to debate perhaps you should not post.

[Truthsayer]

3 or more defines a ('most likely') cult by definition.

Now where does it say that any army-unit (even though I might argue that hamas might be an cult, but that is beside the point) is an cult?

2 is not equal to 3 or higher.

Even you should know this.

[ibstolidude]

3 or more defines a ('most likely') cult by definition.

Now where does it say that any army-unit (even though I might argue that hamas might be an cult, but that is beside the point) is an cult?

2 is not equal to 3 or higher.

Even you should know this.
I'm not sure what any of this pertains to? The only Army reference I made was in my original post - and that is in regards to brainwashing

2) is it brainwashing - No

The statements I made is that
post the 5 things so that we can see that our parents, schools, friends/social groups, all have these in common with
If 3 or more is filled, it's considered an cult or example. Generally and army, sports-club (of fanatics), a dungeons-n-dragons-club of nerds in the basement or an anime-club will fill 2 of them.

As I beleive that the system is outdated and does not stand up to wider scrutiny I DID NOT at anytime aplly any of those criteria to the Army so whether 2 is not equal to 3 or higher is irrelivant.

Having looked at the Revive study from Berkeley and being intimately familiar with various psychological techniques of disruption of processes and being very well versed in behavior modification; I feel, as do many others, that this scope is too broad to draw accurate conclusions and relies heavily on interpretation. It is not quantifiable. The eight conditions of thought reform stem from 1963 - and that is a major basis for the study. Each of these have been redefined in attempts to make them suit the interpreters needs. Frankly as I posted the modern education system, ethical valuation from parents and peer groups/social groups all exhibit aspects of these conditions and in fact often display a majority.

The 5, to which you refer, (unless you refer to a less common study) refer to the 5 steps of mind control outlined by E H Schein. That research also stems from the early 60's. They are infact NOT the charecteristics/conditions of a cult, but of the act of mind control. I posted them earlier. I am VERY intimately familiar with them as they are generally part of the process of the study of persuasion. The term mind control came about as the term "brainwashing" fell out of favor as experiments in the 60s-80s found the theories to be not applicable and often discredited. Even as late as the 90's in a case against Scientology, courts consistently rejected testimonies about mind control and manipulation, ruling that these were not part of accepted science based upon the inconclusive results of their study.

I more subscribe to the more modern school of thought that there is little mind control but that one can control brain process. This is typically done with the use of stressors, environmental controls, drugs and possible with the techniques of TMS.

Now as defining a "cult" (which is not really the topic) that is very difficult as you only site a single study and sociologists have been at odds with this since the 40's and it became very voque in the 60's.

Although you absolutely may choose to disagree completely or disagree with parts of this - this is predominately the position of most modern US social scientists, mental health scholars and the courts.

[Fintin]

i wouldnt call it brainwashing......the military has a mob mentality.....get any large group together and they all start to think the same way...look at citys and their football teams....they hate other teams....why no real reason its just the mob mentality

[MapleLeafInfantry]

I AM NOT BROKEN

[Truthsayer]

ibstolidude>> Yes, you are really creditable when you are making up your own 5 'signs' and claiming it has any bearing to what I was talking about.

It might have sounded as a clever comeback in the pub, but believe it or not, I wasn't attacking the army for brainwashing anyone. The same kind of comradery the army has, can be found in other very tight groups. It might 'weird' for the once on the outside, but is not an cult or brainwashing.

So please, turn off your 'must flame anyone that might not be like me' and just read what I type.

[ibstolidude]

ibstolidude>> Yes, you are really creditable when you are making up your own 5 'signs' and claiming it has any bearing to what I was talking about.

It might have sounded as a clever comeback in the pub, but believe it or not, I wasn't attacking the army for brainwashing anyone. The same kind of comradery the army has, can be found in other very tight groups. It might 'weird' for the once on the outside, but is not an cult or brainwashing.

So please, turn off your 'must flame anyone that might not be like me' and just read what I type.
2 things
1) you were asked to post your 5 things.
well post the 5 things
The ONLY 5 steps of mind control that have gained any credibility in the US
by your own countrymen social sciences are those that I posted. Considering I studied these social sciences/persuassion/mind control as a result of my origenal job in the military, I have a firm understanding of what is and isn't wierd compared to the outside world.

2) as you have been requested to post you arguemtns or let this issue go and instread post youryour desire institute yourself a martyr to flames that do not exist. I have other MODs already aware of your past posts & reviewing them. If you actually fell that you were flamed I suggest you plead your case to them. Please refer to the rules of the forum http://www.militaryphotos.net/forums/viewtopic.php?t=2772

[Resevoir Hogs]

I guess you could call what goes on in boot camp or any other indoctrination course brainwashing. But in most countries people volenteer for this and that type of training keeps them alive later on. So I don't think it is a bad thing at all.

Maybe they could put more of an emphasis on teaching morals and values that would help the person to make the right decisions later on in life.

[WARPIG]

Well, guess some people are just sensative.
On topic. Most of the servicemen here will inform you that brainwashing is a ridiculous notion. The government trains by repetition, uniformity, and leadership. Seeing a unit march back and forth in unison and all wearing he same clothes is not brainwashing. I think the thread auditor and the producer of the documentary misuse the word and apply it in error.
There are pockets of people that tend to act in similar ways. This is a fact of culture and human nature, not military psycho-engineering. A group of people who work and live together tend to create a sub culture much the way a college dorm does. Sports teams and such have been compared on this thread. It is all a matter of comaradary, esprit de corps, and the grouping of similar individuals doing similar and related work.
If the people working the Fast food joints all wear the same clothes, are conditioned to yell, "hot fries!" when they dump a fresh basket, and seem to have the same economical status and age.. does that make them brainwashed zombies?
Humans naturally group themselves, and feed from each other culturally. The US military has protocols, manuals, rules, regulations, policies, and laws that we must follow. The UCMJ tells us that we must behave in a specific way while serving. This is a seperate set of laws that we follow, not some condition that was burned into our minds during training.

[2Sheds_Jackson]

Ain't no gat dang brainwashing here son! You need to square yourself away, maggot.

Are you eyeing me boy? Where you from anyhow? Ohio? What kind of a fancy pants are you anyhow? Ain't nothing there but steers & queers & I don't see no horns on you.

Now you need to go ahead and move like you've got a purpose. If you got time to lean, then you got time to clean. And I know you ain't leanin' on my wall.