Five soldiers die in Iraqi blast

[cut]

Five soldiers die in Iraqi blast


Five soldiers serving with the US-led coalition in Iraq have been killed in a bomb attack west of Baghdad, the US military has said.

Their military vehicle ran over an improvised explosive device at the roadside in the province of al-Anbar.

Coalition officials gave no indication of the nationality of the troops.

The incident came as two cars were attacked in the city of Falluja, also west of Baghdad, and at least two civilians were reported killed.


The people of Falluja hanged some of the bodies on the old bridge like slaughtered sheep
Abdul Aziz Mohammed
Falluja resident

There has been an upsurge in fighting in the region - a stronghold of opposition to the occupation - over the past week.

The BBC's Richard Lister in Baghdad says there are clashes in the region almost every day and at least two US troops and several Iraqi civilians have been killed there in the past week.

Coalition forces have been trying to build up their presence in Falluja, to identify insurgents they believe to be operating there.

Charred bodies

The cars were set on fire, their passengers burnt and bodies dragged out, reports from Falluja suggested.

The vehicles were four-wheel-drive cars, similar to those used by the coalition, and some of their occupants were reported to be wearing flak-jackets.

Witnesses said angry crowds dragged the bodies through the streets, mutilated and dismembered them.


A US passport was apparently filmed beside one of the bodies.

"The people of Falluja hanged some of the bodies on the old bridge like slaughtered sheep," said local resident Abdul Aziz Mohammed.

Twelve people were also reported injured in a suspected car bomb attack in the town of Baquba, north of Baghdad, on Wednesday.

Police and civilians were among the injured in the attack, and several cars were damaged by the blast.

No human remains were found in the vehicle which blew up, a policeman on the scene told AFP news agency.

A coalition soldier was killed by a roadside bomb in the town of Ramadi yesterday, and another marine was killed in Falluja on Friday.

A bomb attack a few kilometres south of Baquba on Sunday injured five civilians, including three children.


Story from BBC NEWS:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/go/pr/fr/-/1/hi/world/middle_east/3585069.stm

Published: 2004/03/31 10:10:33 GMT

[mustamato]

According to CNN they were Americans, which raises the death toll, for US
soldiers only in Iraq to 600.

[Argyll]

This is not good news.
Sounds like PMC's got hit bad.....

[HELEX]

The people of Falluja hanged some of the bodies on the old bridge like slaughtered sheep

Is that the iraqi way of saying "Thank you for liberating us!"?

Strange behavior...



RIP

[mustamato]

http://english.aljazeera.net/HomePage

Hm, a pic of a mutilated (American?) corps here. Also notice that the clothes
are gone, strange and primitive behaviour. So much hate was built up under
Saddam and well, living in a occupied country sort of legimitizes this kind of
behaviour some people seems to think.

Also, they put the death toll to 7 US soldiers.

[George W. Bush]

Ouch. I hope their corpses are returned and those responsible are brought to justice.

[HELEX]

I hope their corpses are returned and those responsible are brought to justice.

I dont think they will ever Jail the american President....

[George W. Bush]

I hope their corpses are returned and those responsible are brought to justice.

I dont think they will ever Jail the american President....

I mean the Islamist terrorists, not American president.

[Loco]

RIP, and the same old song goes on, a crowd profaning the deads.
Really, I´m very sorry because of this daily deads although I don´t write my condolences everyday. The most of this american soldiers are younger than me, I´ve read a long report about their families in USA. This is something I definitely I can´t understand, that neither the President, the patriotic Bush, nor any other high government officer still went to a soldiers funeral. It seems as the deads are hidden in USA. This is a thing it doesn´t happen just now in any other country except in USA. Excuse if it disturbs what I´m writig, but I´m being quite sincere, I don´t share in anyway how the things are being managed in Irak, but since my contry, Spain, is implied in that and we had to mourn too, I think I´ve the right to express myself. I hope americans decide the best for them and for the irakies, don´t forget, in a serene way, with a deep debate, without demagogues politicians. But just now, I feel the President should have the courage to visit families of american victims and looking straight to their eyes, and becoming like the leader he´s supposed to be, it´s simply shameful that everyday more families are crying alone in their houses. If he had enough time for taking on in a carrier being greeted by the true heroes like if he was a hero, he must go to the airport just now and receiving those heroes when they come home dead. It´s a question of human feeling, is it so strange what I´m saying?

[Maverick77]

Must of been one hell of a ****in Roadside Bomb.

[mustamato]

RIP, and the same old song goes on, a crowd profaning the deads.
Really, I´m very sorry because of this daily deads although I don´t write my condolences everyday. The most of this american soldiers are younger than me, I´ve read a long report about their families in USA. This is something I definitely I can´t understand, that neither the President, the patriotic Bush, nor any other high government officer still went to a soldiers funeral. It seems as the deads are hidden in USA. This is a thing it doesn´t happen just now in any other country except in USA. Excuse if it disturbs what I´m writig, but I´m being quite sincere, I don´t share in anyway how the things are being managed in Irak, but since my contry, Spain, is implied in that and we had to mourn too, I think I´ve the right to express myself. I hope americans decide the best for them and for the irakies, don´t forget, in a serene way, with a deep debate, without demagogues politicians. But just now, I feel the President should have the courage to visit families of american victims and looking straight to their eyes, and becoming like the leader he´s supposed to be, it´s simply shameful that everyday more families are crying alone in their houses. If he had enough time for taking on in a carrier being greeted by the true heroes like if he was a hero, he must go to the airport just now and receiving those heroes when they come home dead. It´s a question of human feeling, is it so strange what I´m saying?

Well I agree. I think Bush is afraid of making politics of it, that can be used
against him in the election campaign. If he had done this what you say already
from the beginning, say each sunday, then it would be to his advantage. If he
starts now it will look as if he only wants to become president again and don´t
really give a **** about the dead. I don´t think Bush cares that much about
the dead, as guvernor he obviously put a record of people he had killed.

Bush believes in God, and maybe he really doesn´t give a **** about dead
American soldiers, because he believes that they as true American heroes
sits at the dinner table with Jesus every day and night now and looks down
on him and says "thank you Mr President"?

[Argyll]

Ouch. I hope their corpses are returned and those responsible are brought to justice.


fat chance of that,it was the same when the RMP's were mudered outside Basra last year,nobody was ever brought to justice.

Mustamoto
Fallujah is Sunni,they lived well under Saddam,when the Baathists were removed from power,so did those in fallujah,desecrating the corpses in this manner is trying to provoke the same reaction to that of Somalia.
it's pretty clear that Fallujah is NOT under Coalition control,looking at those who are dancing for joy does not give me the impression they are wanting the US presence there,the Iron Fist needs to be brought to bear in this area.

[George W. Bush]

Yeah, it's really ****ed up that this even occured at all. Lots of good people are dying over there.

[Argyll]

I hope their corpses are returned and those responsible are brought to justice.

I dont think they will ever Jail the american President....


HELEX if you've got nothing constructive to say shut your mouth,your Anti American views are getting extremely tiresome......besides these guys who were killed could easily be friends of mine,so unless you have some sincerity then keep it closed! :fork:

[mustamato]

Mustamoto
Fallujah is Sunni,they lived well under Saddam,when the Baathists were removed from power,so did those in fallujah,desecrating the corpses in this manner is trying to provoke the same reaction to that of Somalia.
it's pretty clear that Fallujah is NOT under Coalition control,looking at those who are dancing for joy does not give me the impression they are wanting the US presence there,the Iron Fist needs to be brought to bear in this area.

But that only presents more targets for the RPG-gunners and the chaps that
sits with a sandwich and a cup of tea and waits for the next American vehicle
to pass so that they can press the button of the detonator. And also that would
mean more civilian deads, no matter who kills them they are going to blame
the Americans.

Leaving Fallujah is not possible of course, since it would become a safe-haven
for the insurgents. But hm, why not just leave it as it is in this town. I get the
impression that it is the coalition that sets the rules, they decide what to do,
and the insurgents are playing by those rules, as long as the civilians help them
and say that they saw nothing I don´t see any possibility of success for the
coalition. I don´t know, but taking away some of the pressure, could it have
a positive effect?

[Upfrontreporting]

Just saw the clip on *******, extremely discusting, very graphic, those ****ing savages were stoning one of the occupants still inside the burning vehicle.




regards.
Upfrontreporting

[Argyll]

By making it a no go?
It could happen,no Military movements in soft skinned vehicles too,I'd isolate the town,no troops nothing,nothing gets in, nothing gets out.
It's clear the people there are a completely different mentality than the remaining Iraqi's in Iraq,whatever happens will be interesting to say the least.

I have a feeling there's collusion between local Police and Insurgents,it's not easy to plan an ambush without having Intelligence,I'd be asking stuff like who planned the route,who was present,what type of weapons involved etc,cause this looks likes someone foked up

[HELEX]

@Argyll


your Anti American views are getting extremely tiresome.....

So when did I say something Anti American? I'm really curios about that.

Just said something about their President. The whole "anti americanism" Bull**** is just some right wing media Bull****. Do I stop eating american fast food? No! Do I stop viewing american Movies? No! Do I stop buying american Products? No!

So maybe you stop stating I'm "anti american" now because that is BS?

[Argyll]

I hope their corpses are returned and those responsible are brought to justice.

I dont think they will ever Jail the american President....

And this is not an Anti American statement?

You tell me the context of your post and about those being responsible being brought to justice then?,as you obviously were not intimating the Iraqi's

[HELEX]

@Argyll

This is just an anti Bush Administration statement.

"Attacking Iraq after 9/11 is like attacking Mexico after Pearl Harbour!"
Richard Clarke, former Counter Terrorism
Chief in Bush administration

[wreck]

@Argyll

This is just an anti Bush Administration statement.

"Attacking Iraq after 9/11 is like attacking Mexico after Pearl Harbour!"
Richard Clarke, former Counter Terrorism
Chief in Bush administration
They should arrest Richard Clarke for making such an anti-american statement.

Argyll, you should losen up a bit. IMO Helex said nothing anti-american. Anti-Bush perhaps but thats what one is allowed to say isn't it? What happened to the freedom of speech?

[Argyll]

And did you not read the part where I stated these could be friends of mine?..........loosen up,considering I'm going there in a weeks time,hell yeah I'm loose.My wife is sick with worry,so don't patronise me about chillin please


HELEX statement had NOTHING whatsoever to do with this incident.

GWB(forum member)stated he hoped the perpetrators of this attack would be caught and brought to justice,

so you tell me where HELEX' context fits in with this incident please?

[S'13]

"Attacking Iraq after 9/11 is like attacking Mexico after Pearl Harbour!"
Richard Clarke, former Counter Terrorism
Chief in Bush administration

http://cagle.slate.msn.com/working/020902/payne.gif

[HELEX]

@Argyll


And did you not read the part where I stated these could be friends of mine?

So do you really think Im lucky about their death? Do you? :cantbeli:

Do you really think I want you to get wounded or killed there? :hug:

If GWB never started this Operation "black gold" they would be still alive!

[scoone]

RIP :(
I´ve just heard the news and see the pictures, it was terrible and all the people in the street hitting the bodies and throwing stones to the cars, what a bunch of cowards, how easy is to hit a corpse how hard to face a live soldier face to face.
Sorry for those brave men. :(

[scoone]

Iraqis Drag Bodies Through Streets After Attack
Wed Mar 31, 2004 07:23 AM ET
By Michael Georgy
FALLUJA, Iraq (*******) - A crowd of cheering Iraqis dragged charred and mutilated bodies through the streets of the town of Falluja Wednesday after an ambush on two vehicles that witnesses said killed at least three foreigners.

In a separate attack one year after the U.S.-led war on Iraq that overthrew Saddam Hussein, five American soldiers were killed when a roadside bomb was detonated beside their convoy west of Baghdad, the U.S. army said.

The Falluja violence began when two four-wheel-drive vehicles were attacked by guerrillas on a main road in the town, 32 miles west of Baghdad. A crowd then set the vehicles ablaze and hurled stones into the burning wreckage.

Television pictures showed one incinerated body being kicked and stamped on by a member of the jubilant crowd, while others dragged a blackened body down the road by its feet.

The footage showed at least three people lying dead, while some witnesses said that four were killed. It was not clear how many people were in the vehicles.

As one body lay burning on the ground, an Iraqi came and doused it with petrol, sending flames soaring. At least two bodies were tied to cars and pulled through the streets, witnesses said.

"This is the fate of all Americans who come to Falluja," said Mohammad Nafik, one of the crowd surrounding the bodies.

Some body parts were pulled off and left hanging from a pole, while two incinerated bodies were later strung from a bridge over the road and left dangling there.

It was unclear who was traveling in the vehicles, both four-wheel drives of the type used by foreign contractors, journalists, civilian members of the U.S.-led coalition and some military personnel. Witnesses said they saw anywhere between four and eight people in the cars before they were attacked.

Some of the victims were wearing civilian clothes, flak jackets and were armed, witnesses said, but that was not clear from the television footage. One of those killed had fair hair and was wearing khaki trousers and a white T-shirt.

As the victims lay burning, a crowd of around 150 men chanted "Long live Islam" and "Allahu Akbar" ("God is Greatest") while flashing victory signs. Falluja has been one of the most violent, restive towns in Iraq since the U.S.-led occupation began. There are almost daily attacks on U.S. military convoys in the area.
FOREIGNERS TARGETED

More than 400 U.S. soldiers have been killed in action since the start of the war, many of them in attacks using so-called improvised explosive devices in which an explosive charge is hidden in a plastic bag, soft drink can or dead animal and wired to a simple detonator.

As well as attacks on U.S. and coalition troops, there has been a sharp increase in insurgent strikes against foreigners in recent weeks.

In March alone, 12 foreign civilians have been killed in drive-by shootings or similar attacks. In the most recent incident, a Briton and a Canadian, both working as security guards, were shot and killed Sunday in the city of Mosul.

Earlier in March, two Finns were killed in Baghdad, and four U.S. missionaries were shot dead in Mosul. In Hilla, south of Baghdad, two Americans working for the U.S. civilian authority were shot in a drive-by shooting.

With less than 100 days to go before U.S. authorities hand over sovereignty to an Iraqi government, the U.S. military, Iraqi police and other local security forces are still battling to bring security to the country.

Attacks occur almost every day with rockets, grenades, assault rifles, small arms or suicide bombs somewhere in Iraq. Wednesday, a car bomb blew up in Baquba, about 25 miles north of Baghdad, wounding around a dozen people, while Tuesday a suicide bomber detonated his vehicle outside the house of the chief of police in Hilla, but killed only himself.
http://www.*******.com/newsArticle.jhtml;jsessionid=PH1NUEZDFI04ECRBAEOCFFA?type=topNews&storyID=4711719&section=news

[ibstolidude]

This is not good news.
Sounds like PMC's got hit bad.....


This is not good news.
Sounds like PMC's got hit bad.....
Most unfortunate. Prayers to the families.



PMC's will likely grow as targets as the longer the coalition militaries are there they will continue to harden their defenses and refine their techniques, making their response more rapid and more lethal to attackers. Although US military will be attacked they will require more planning, if I had to choose between NTVs or a 2 Bradleys, a 113, and 2 hmmwvs; I know where my decision would be.

Yes PMC's do the same, however they do not generally own Bradleys. It is likely that their threat will grow especially when moving in NTV (sorry non-tactical vehicles). Although they are harder to detect, dispite their training and usually high level of expertise/experience, they do not have the same man power and access that military has to immediate QRF.

The other reason they are likley to be further targetted (role dependedent) is the desire for the enemy*(insert your own term) forces to stave off any reconstruction efforts. One of the worst thing in the eyes of the enemy is for the coalition rebuilding and security efforts to be viewed as a success. They need instability to counter any "legitimacy" the coalition my try to build. Often PMCs are employed to preotect these Civil Administrators.

[mustamato]

http://wwwi.*******.com/images/2004-03-31T122249Z_01_GALAXY-DC-MDF512618_RTRIDSP_2_NEWS-IRAQ-DC.jpg


BAGHDAD (*******) - A guerrilla ambush on two vehicles in the Iraqi town of Falluja Wednesday killed four contractors working for the U.S.-led coalition, the U.S. army said. After the attack, the bodies of the victims were set ablaze and mutilated by a crowd of Iraqis, witnesses said.

I get a feeling of that these western guys with fancy clothes and equipment
and driving in new SUV´s is not that popular with the Iraqis, maybe they
are seen as mercenaries?

[2Sheds_Jackson]

The images of what happened in Iraq are very disturbing. To anyone who holds human life sacred, it's a debasing and demoralizing thing to see. But in all fairness, it's unreasonable to expect better behavior from these primitive savages in Iraq. Their society is extremely backward, on top of which, they were subjected to decades of ruthless violence at the hands of Saddam.

They know nothing besides violence, fear, and practice of cloaking all actions under the blood-stained flag of Islam. To mutilate the dead, to use it as a photo-op is the most grotesque barbarism. For a news outlet (Al-Jazeera) to openly show it makes them complicit in the act.

For some here (such as HELEX) to be like OBL & attempt to justify it while pretending to mourn the dead is vile. You'll recall that's exactly what OBL did after 9/11 - basically saying well, it's a horrible tragedy, but you did deserve it of course. So that puts you in good company.

So to all lowlifes here who'll try to use this outrageous act as fodder for your point of view - just shut the hell up. Many of us (including me) have friends, co-workers & family there & any time this **** happens it could be them. Or next time it could be me.

I'm not planning to go to oppress the Iraqis. My job would be to get their infrastructure fixed. That's a humanitarian act. And for that, we're killed, mutilated, and dragged through the street. It's hard not to just say f*ck off and fix your own ****, you dimwitted medieval savages. But it's a testament to the people there that work goes on despite the danger.

[Old300]

Mustamoto, you wrote:

'I don´t think Bush cares that much about the dead, as guvernor he obviously put a record of people he had killed.

Bush believes in God, and maybe he really doesn´t give a **** about dead American soldiers, because he believes that they as true American heroes sits at the dinner table with Jesus every day and night now and looks down on him and says "thank you Mr President"?"

I became interested in this site because of the pictures, and I've posted a few political arguments from time to time, but I stay out of the flame wars and generally ignore most of the idiotic things that people sometimes post. But Mustamoto, what you just wrote requires some kind of response.

I know you're not stupid, because you're fluent in English and you consistently have intelligent things to say about military topics. But the assertion from you that I quoted above is utterly, completely, astonishingly stupid, ignorant, and offensive.

Not only does it not make any sense at all - Bush doesn't care about our dead soldiers because they, uh, talk to Jesus - but it's also offensive to people who believe in God, support what our President has done since September 11, and, quite possibly, to the families and friends of fallen soldiers whose loved ones you so blithely, cartoonishly depicted.

I guess it'd be expected of me to remark on the irony of supposed European sophistication in light of your remarks, but I'm not going to do that. There are too many Europeans on this site - of all political persuasions - who would recognize your remarks as beyond the pale.

By all means, make fun of our president, the death penalty, and religion. But don't use our dead soldiers to make political and religious statements.

[HELEX]

@2Sheds_Jackson


I'm not planning to go to oppress the Iraqis. My job would be to get their infrastructure fixed. That's a humanitarian act. And for that, we're killed, mutilated, and dragged through the street. It's hard not to just say f*ck off and fix your own ****, you dimwitted medieval savages. But it's a testament to the people there that work goes on despite the danger.

Who destroyed that Infrastructure you selfless humanitarian Hero? :cantbeli:

Repairing Infrastructure is something an occupant has to do according to geneva convention. So there is nothing heroic in there. The only thing the Iraqis want you to do is leave.

Did you ever, in your entire life, think about what you are writing and not just repeating what somebody told you to think?

[SerbPVO]

Helex, with some of the anti-Serbian drivel you posted earlier, I'd ask you the same!

[Argyll]

How would you feel if they were German Nationals HELEX........oh you do know there are Germans in these International PMC's don't you?

[HELEX]

@SerbPVO


Helex, with some of the anti-Serbian drivel you posted earlier, I'd ask you the same!

Ok, give me a quote of something anti-Serbian I said. I looking forward to it.... ;)

@Argyll


How would you feel if they were German Nationals HELEX........oh you do know there are Germans in these International PMC's don't you?

I would feel exactely the same, as I said before... You just have to read it...

Quote of myself:


So do you really think Im lucky about their death? Do you? :cantbeli:

Do you really think I want you to get wounded or killed there? :hug:

If GWB never started this Operation "black gold" they would be still alive!

[Elmo]

It's a (media)war out there, no matter what Bush declared last May.
Of course they use grotesque pictures for photo-ops, that's the only way to look victorious. What do they have? Small arms, RPG's, IED's...not much.

They can't broadcast pictures of Shock and Awe, they don't have a press centre where they can watch hi-tech pictures of missiles hitting targets. Techno war wet dreams for the masses...no death shown, only superiority.

The insurgents use american bodies. Micro level propaganda by the microscopical power.

I'm not saying it's right. It's terrible but surely gets the attention.

I bet the American propaganda machine is getting frustrated...what to show to the people? How to maintain confidence when majority of the news are negative?

[Loco]

In what I´m concerned, I didn´t pretend a discussion about politics, regarding what I wrote in the 1 page, I hold what I wrote, but I mean my words were related exclusively with Bush´s attitude towards the american deads, perhaps it´s cultural, I don´t know how american officials and presidents did in other conflicts, I just point that other countries have lost people in Irak, or in any other recent conflicts, and they honor their deads in the way they deserve. I didn´t want to use american deads for any political purpouse of course and my higher consideration to them and their families, and the people who serves there. I just would like american victims had the same honors their fellows have in other countries.

[2Sheds_Jackson]

Who destroyed that Infrastructure you selfless humanitarian Hero? :cantbeli:

The civilian contractors who were murdered destroyed the infrastructure? No, some of the infrastructure was destroyed in the war, but the bulk of the rebuilding now is focusing on repairing what Saddam did to his own people.



Repairing Infrastructure is something an occupant has to do according to geneva convention. So there is nothing heroic in there. The only thing the Iraqis want you to do is leave.

Yes, an occupying government has to rebuild infrastructure. But the individual people who are there are under no obligation to do so. The contractors on the ground are not military. They're civillians. To me, facing danger every day in order to help others is worthy of praise.

Most of the infrastructure that's being worked was not destroyed by the war. It's suffering from decades of neglect at the hands of Saddam. See, while his people were being brutalized by his security forces, and he was amassing a huge personal fortune, he let the place fall into disrepar so he could cry in front of the UN.

Another responsibility of an occupying power is to bring order & establish new government. But you leave that part out. Why? On one hand, you require us to fix everything, but on the other you'd have us leave now? The mass of Iraquis want us to stay & maintain order until they're governing themselves. So, what should we do?



Did you ever, in your entire life, think about what you are writing and not just repeating what somebody told you to think?

I work with these people every day. I have an intimite knowledge of what goes on there. How close are you to this? Know any people who've been there? Know any Iraquis? Work with any of the contractors do you? Do you have any idea what the hell you're talking about at all?

Obviously, your palpable envy & hatred of the US has blinded you. I would ask that in the future, you at least have a passing knowledge of the subject matter you're commenting on before launching into anoter idiotic anti-US rant.

And just exactly what are you doing to improve things for the Iraqis, whom you so care so deeply about?

[Seoulstriker]

From: Press Service <afisnews_sender@DTIC.MIL>
Subject: Nine Deaths in Iraq Won't Deter Coalition, Officials Say
To: DEFENSE-PRESS-SERVICE-L@DTIC.MIL

By Donna Miles
American Forces Press Service

WASHINGTON, March 31, 2004 — Five U.S. soldiers and four civilians were killed
in separate attacks today in Iraq, coalition officials reported during a
Baghdad news briefing.

Army Brig. Gen. Mark Kimmitt, deputy operations director for Combined Joint
Task Force 7, said the U.S. soldiers were patrolling northwest of Habbaniyah
when their vehicle hit an improvised explosive device. The explosion left a
crater measuring 15 by 10 feet, he said.

In a separate incident, Kimmitt said, four coalition contractors traveling in
two separate vehicles were killed after coming under attack by grenades and
small-arms fire. Officials said U.S. Marines are investigating details
surrounding the incident. However, news sources in Baghdad reported this
morning that jubilant crowds gathered around the burning vehicles and dragged
at least one of the bodies through the streets. No details were available about
the civilians' nationalities.

The names of all killed in the attacks were being withheld until their families
are notified.

Kimmitt said the nine families — five military, four civilians — will receive
knocks on the door today informing them that their loved ones have been killed.
"It's tragic, and we grieve with these families," he said.

But to allow these tragedies to deter the coalition from its mission, "to
buckle under to a bunch of insurgents" would be the ultimate disgrace to their
memories, Kimmitt said.

He called the attacks examples of "a slight uptick in localized engagements" in
Iraq, which he said have had a "negligible impact" on the coalition's progress.
During the past week, Kimmitt said, daily engagements have averaged 28 per day
against coalition military forces, five per day against Iraqi security forces,
and just under four per day against Iraqi civilians.

Meanwhile, he said, the coalition is "stepping up its offensive tempo" to kill
or capture those instigating the attacks, he said.

Even as the attacks were occurring, Kimmitt said schools and health clinics
were opening, oil output was increasing and critical steps were continuing to
be taken to build and restore Iraq's essential services and infrastructure.

Dan Senor, Coalition Provisional Authority spokesman, said 18,000 individual
reconstruction projects have been completed in Iraq during the past nine to 10
months. "This averages 75 to 100 projects per day, and the process moves
forward," he said.

Kimmitt said Fallujah, a former Baathist stronghold, harbors a small percentage
of foreign terrorists and former Saddam Hussein regime elements who "just don't
get it" and believe they can "turn back the hands of time" to reverse Iraq's
progress toward democracy.

"It's a small minority of the people," he said. "Most of the people want to
move forward and be part of the new Iraq."

Kimmitt dismissed a reporter's question whether Fallujah has become too
dangerous for coalition activity. "I don't feel that there is any place in this
country that coalition forces think is too dangerous to go into," he said.

Like the Army's 3rd Armored Cavalry Regiment and 82nd Airborne Division before
them, Kimmitt said, members of the 1st Marine Expeditionary Force now
responsible for the area are "dedicated to going into Fallujah at any time to
restore order, to establish a safe and secure environment and to get on with
the progress that is being denied to the vast majority of citizens in
Fallujah."

Kimmitt said the coalition expects the insurgents to increase their attacks as
the countdown continues to the June 30 handover of sovereignty to the Iraqi
people.

He called today's attack and those likely to be launched in the future —
particularly those involving civilians -- as a "sign of desperation" and
"cowardice" among foreign terrorists and former regime elements in Iraq.

Those who carry out these attacks "have a different vision for the future of
Iraq than the majority of Iraqis," Senor said. Polls consistently show that
most Iraqis "are grateful for their liberation," he noted, and anxious for the
country's occupation to end.

Paradoxically, he said, polls show that most Iraqis don't want the coalition to
leave, presumably due to fears that Iraq's security situation will degrade.

Related Sites:
Coalition Provisional Authority [http://www.cpa-iraq.org/]
Combined Joint Task Force 7 [http://www.cjtf7.com/]
82nd Airborne Division [http://www.bragg.army.mil/www-82DV/]
1st Marine Expeditionary Force [http://www.cpp.usmc.mil/imef/#]

[HELEX]

@SerbPVO


Helex, with some of the anti-Serbian drivel you posted earlier, I'd ask you the same!

I ask you again, what did I say against Serbia???

Show it to me...

[ARBERESH]

@2Sheds_Jackson

[quote]

Repairing Infrastructure is something an occupant has to do according to geneva convention.

So Germany has a lot of debts to all the world!

[HELEX]

Repairing Infrastructure is something an occupant has to do according to geneva convention.

So Germany has a lot of debts to all the world!


So are we an Occupant? And we paid, more than anyone else....

[ARBERESH]

According to CNN they were Americans, which raises the death toll, for US
soldiers only in Iraq to 600.

And this makes you happy?
I had a curioaity, I know as sure the fact that till in late 70, in Sweden so called "inferiors", were sterilized by exponing them to x-rays. But do you continue?

[ARBERESH]

Repairing Infrastructure is something an occupant has to do according to geneva convention.

So Germany has a lot of debts to all the world!


So are we an Occupant? And we paid, more than anyone else....

NEVER ENOUGH!

Tecnically they have the responsability of an occupant!
Remember that these americans constructed your country, not left you starve as east-germany.
Remmember that they were noble with you that were 10 thousand times worst than iraqi, helped you to construct a democratic and human culture that you'll never would have alone. Anglo-americans were so noble and progressive 60 years ago, with a nation that bring so bad in this world.
So I'm sure, that they will do million times better after sixty years, with much better persons that herrenwolk.

[HELEX]

NEVER ENOUGH!

Tecnically they have the responsability of an occupant!
Remember that these americans constructed your country, not left you starve as east-germany.
Remmember that they were noble with you that were 10 thousand times worst than iraqi, helped you to construct a democratic and human culture that you'll never would have alone. Anglo-americans were so noble and progressive 60 years ago, with a nation that bring so bad in this world.
So I'm sure, that they will do million times better after sixty years, with much better persons that herrenwolk.


To say it again, Germany was rebuilt by its own power. Just read a history book. And there was nothing noble in it, just strategy.

[RomanS]

According to CNN they were Americans, which raises the death toll, for US
soldiers only in Iraq to 600.

what are you happy or something? Cockbreath

[2Sheds_Jackson]

NEVER ENOUGH!

Tecnically they have the responsability of an occupant!
Remember that these americans constructed your country, not left you starve as east-germany.
Remmember that they were noble with you that were 10 thousand times worst than iraqi, helped you to construct a democratic and human culture that you'll never would have alone. Anglo-americans were so noble and progressive 60 years ago, with a nation that bring so bad in this world.
So I'm sure, that they will do million times better after sixty years, with much better persons that herrenwolk.


To say it again, Germany was rebuilt by its own power. Just read a history book. And there was nothing noble in it, just strategy.

Its' own power? Ever hear of the Marshall plan?


Marshall Plan Expenditures

Economic Assistance, April 3, 1948 to June 30, 1952
(in millions of dollars)

COUNTRY Total Grants Loans
Total for all countries $13,325.8 $11,820.7 $1,505.1

Austria 677.8 677.8 --
Belgium-Luxembourg 559.3 491.3 68.0a
Denmark 273.0 239.7 3.3
France 2,713.6 2,488.0 225.6
Germany, Federal Republic of 1,390.6 1,173.7 216.9b
Greece 706.7 706.7 --
Iceland 29.3 24.0 5.3
Ireland 147.5 19.3 128.2
Italy (including Trieste) 1,508.8 1,413.2 95.6
Netherlands (*East Indies)c 1,083.5 916.8 166.7
Norway 255.3 216.1 39.2
Portugal 51.2 15.1 36.1
Sweden 107.3 86.9 20.4
Turkey 225.1 140.1 85.0
United Kingdom 3,189.8 2,805.0 384.8

Regional 407.0d 407.0d --

Notes:

a) Loan total includes $65.0 million for Belgium and $3.0 million for Luxembourg: grant detail between the two countries cannot be identified.

b) Includes an original loan figure of $16.9 million, plus $200.0 million representing a pro-rated share of grants converted to loans under an agreement signed February 27, 1953.

c) Marshall Plan aid to the Netherlands East Indies (now Indonesia) was extended through the Netherlands prior to transfer of sovereignty on December 30, 1949. The aid totals for the Netherlands East Indies are as follows:
Total $101.4 million, Grants $84.2 million, Loans $17.2 million.

d) Includes U.S. contribution to the European Payments Union (EPU) capital fund, $361.4 million; General Freight Account, $33.5 million; and European Technical Assistance Authorizations (multi-country or regional), $12.1 million.

Statistics & Reports Division
Agency for International Development
November 17, 1975

looks like Germany got $1.2 billion in grants, and $216 million in loans.

Also, since the whole frickin' mess was caused by the German Army in the first place, you could say that the Marshall plan picked up the the entire tab on Germany's behalf - which is to the tune of $13.3 billion. Since these were 1973 dollars - in 2003 dollars it works out to about $43 billion.

...its own power. Please.

[HELEX]

To make it easier to you if you cant read german, Germany got 6,4 Billion DM Credit and paid 13 Billion back. Really, sounds not like a bad business for the USA.

America, the selfless..... rofl


A. Die Leistungen des Marshallplans für Westdeutschland (BRD)

Im Rahmen des sogenannten Marshallplans wurden nach Westdeutschland als Kredit in den Jahren 1949 bis 1952 1,4 Mrd.$ im Gegenwert von rund 6,4 Mrd. DM gegeben. Andere westeuropäische Länder erhielten schon ab 1947 weit mehr und als Geschenk, ganz Europa rund 12 Mrd. $. Nur Deutschland mußte die Gelder zurückzahlen. Dieser Kredit an Westdeutschland wurde aufgrund des Londoner Schuldenabkommens vom 12. Februar 1953 mit Zins und Tilgung bis 1962 in Höhe von 13 Mrd. DM zurückgezahlt.

Diese 13 Mrd. DM müssen - entgegen offizieller Deutung - ausschließlich als Rückzahlung für den Marshallplan angesetzt werden. Nach dem Londoner Schuldenabkommen sollten sie auch der Rückzahlung von sogenannten ›Gario‹-Mitteln dienen, die für Lebensmittelhilfen an die Westzonen in den Hungerjahren 1945 bis 1948 von den Besatzern gezahlt worden sein sollen. Angeblich haben in diesen Jahren - also vor dem Marshallplan - die Westalliierten ›Wirtschaftshilfe‹ (Nahrungsmittel) in Höhe von 3,386 Mrd. Dollar an Westdeutschland geleistet [1]. Es läßt sich aber nachweisen, daß es sich bei den ›Gario‹-Mitteln um einen gigantischen Betrug der Engländer und Amerikaner handelt. Selb
st Ludwig Erhard, Bundeswirtschaftsminister ab 1949, schreibt in seinem Buch Deutschlands Rückkehr zum Weltmarkt, daß es von deutscher Seite keinerlei Kontrolle oder Bestätigung für diese angebliche Lebensmittelhilfe gibt.

Daß die alliierten Angaben zu den ›Gario‹-Mitteln nicht stimmen können, läßt sich auch folgendermaßen leicht errechnen. Beim damaligen Weizenpreis von rund 60 $ für die Tonne hätte man damit 55 Mill. Tonnen Weizen kaufen können. Die Westzonen (später BRD) hatten damals 40,45 Mill. Einwohner. 55 Mill. Tonnen Weizen hätten also für jeden Bürger der Westzonen rund 1200 kg bedeutet, eine Menge, die für dreieinhalb Jahre für jeden Westdeutschen 1 kg Weizen je Tag (= rund 4000 Kalorien) ergeben hätte. 1400 Kalorien waren uns aus eigenen Beständen (Reichsnährstand [2]) noch möglich gewesen; das heißt, es hätten für jeden Einwohner rund 5400 Kalorien je Tag - also die Ration für einen Schwerstarbeiter - zur Verfügung stehen müssen. In Wirklichkeit gab es in den Westzonen aber nur 1000 bis 1400 Kalorien, die vom Reichsnährstand noch sichergestellt waren. Die angebliche ›Gario‹-Hilfe ist also nie in Deutschland angekommen.

[Royal]

I can't be arsed to argue with biggoted idiots like Helix and Mustamoto, but this...


But in all fairness, it's unreasonable to expect better behavior from these primitive savages in Iraq. Their society is extremely backward, on top of which, they were subjected to decades of ruthless violence at the hands of Saddam.

They know nothing besides violence, fear, and practice of cloaking all actions under the blood-stained flag of Islam.

...fills me with dread.

You claim that you may work over there - I bloody well hope not. If you go to a country with that kind of attitude you will simply perpetuate the problems. Just because a country doesn't have baseball, cable **** and Baskin Robbins does not mean they are 'savages'.


For a news outlet (Al-Jazeera) to openly show it makes them complicit in the act.

Does that mean the BBC, *******, *****, Channel 4 (to list those others I've seen the images on today) are complicit too?

Journalists are vultures, but they only pick on what the public want to see - I loath them with a passion (or at least the ones I've had the misfortune to meet), but I feed on their product too. Am I complicit?

[Russian Texan]

[quote="HELEX"]To make it easier to you if you cant read german, Germany got 6,4 Billion DM Credit and paid 13 Billion back. Really, sounds not like a bad business for the USA.
America, the selfless..... rofl
[quote]

Speaking of Germany, HELEX, this one is for you
http://www.pobeda.ru/prival/pesni/hvorostovski/12.mp3

:)

[talib_killa34]

A very sad day. :(

Keep in mind, these five are NOT 500 or 5,000 casualties.

There should not be this "defeatist" attitude coming from America after this tragic event now or ever.


Stay..the...course....in....Iraq.

PERIOD.

[2Sheds_Jackson]

To say it again, Germany was rebuilt by its own power. Just read a history book. .


To make it easier to you if you cant read german, Germany got 6,4 Billion DM Credit and paid 13 Billion back. Really, sounds not like a bad business for the USA.

Now wait a minute. Can you make a 3rd posting to break the tie. Seems like you can't decide which it is.

Also, yes - banks are entitled to interest on loans. As an example of this simple concept, go to an online mortgage calculator. I did, and I found that on a 30 year mortgage;

I borrow $200,000
I pay back $316,000

And that's with an interest rate of 3.3%, which is a great rate.

Now, if I was unemployed, and had just tried to rob, capture, kill, enslave, or otherwise destroy the very bank I borrowed from, they likely wouldn't give me such good terms. They might charge me 10% interest. Then it's;

I borrow $200,000
I pay back $632,000

And 10% is pretty generous.

You didn't mention the grant money, which did not need to be repaid at all.

[2Sheds_Jackson]

I can't be arsed to argue with biggoted idiots like Helix and Mustamoto, but this...


But in all fairness, it's unreasonable to expect better behavior from these primitive savages in Iraq. Their society is extremely backward, on top of which, they were subjected to decades of ruthless violence at the hands of Saddam.

They know nothing besides violence, fear, and practice of cloaking all actions under the blood-stained flag of Islam.

...fills me with dread.

You claim that you may work over there - I bloody well hope not. If you go to a country with that kind of attitude you will simply perpetuate the problems. Just because a country doesn't have baseball, cable **** and Baskin Robbins does not mean they are 'savages'.


For a news outlet (Al-Jazeera) to openly show it makes them complicit in the act.

Does that mean the BBC, *******, *****, Channel 4 (to list those others I've seen the images on today) are complicit too?

Journalists are vultures, but they only pick on what the public want to see - I loath them with a passion (or at least the ones I've had the misfortune to meet), but I feed on their product too. Am I complicit?

I'm not talking about just showing the images of a burning vehicle - but the video of the bodies being dragged/hung etc. They wouldn't show pics of their own citizens at home in that condition. It's obviously shown for another reason. Feeding on their product is just kind of sad, but it doesnt' make you complicit.

Hey, I call it like I see it. I'm not a very politically correct guy. If people behave like savages, then they are savages. How else are we to judge people, if not by their actions?

[Loco]

Interesting thread about Marshall Plan. I didn´t know that even countries like Portugal, which didn´t fought nor were, evidently, destroyed in that war, recieved help of that plan. I think everybody knows that Marshall Plan is a the logic result of the failure of IWW postwar failure. In the 20´s, Germany had to pay onerous war reparations to France, even that Germany didn´t ask for an unconditional surrender like in the IIWW, and noting that the german regime of IWW wasn´t a criminal regimen. So in the 20´s, there wasn´t "Economic german mircle", like in the 50´s, so it seems as the miracle are very materials. In the 50´s, Germany recieved a lot of money for free in many ways, if Germany had to pay all what destroyed in that War, I think the debt would be pay may be in 2045, may be not, depend of the rate. Clearly, the intention of general Marshall was a developed Germany, not a poor and rancourous like the one of the 20´s, with the difference that the germans of the 20´s didn´t deserve paying to the frenchs but the ones of the 50 of course yes.
And now talking of Spain, we had our own little world war at home, and germanys and italians experimented with us, not for free. Franco´s reigme had to pay all the war material germans gave to Spain in mineral and labour force, by the end of the IIWW the debt was paid. But the germans never paid to spanish all the destruction the did in Spain, Gernika must be a familiar name to you, I think, not far from where I live. Germans bombed a basque city only for experimenting, they even didn´t ask for permission to Franco. Those were your grandpas. My grandpas, btw, had to work hardly and hardly and hardly. And thousands of spanish had to travel to Germany in the 50s and the 60s to building this so called "german miracle", hahahah, miracle with cheap labour force. I this isn´t diabolic, I don´t know what it is, the people of a country destroyed with the help of germans rebuilding a free Germany in the place of rebuilding their dictatorial country. In the case of Italy, it was even worst, Franco´s Spain was paying the help of Mussolini to Italy till about 1958, when the italian fascists was 13 years dead and all italians were democratic, simultaneously they were recieving Marshall Plan aid from USA, this is a fair world: Recieving help from the democratic country that defeated your country and simultaneously recieving money of a country you helped to destroy. And still germans says they built their country by themselves. Never in your mind, Hans!

[ARBERESH]

NEVER ENOUGH!

Tecnically they have the responsability of an occupant!
Remember that these americans constructed your country, not left you starve as east-germany.
Remmember that they were noble with you that were 10 thousand times worst than iraqi, helped you to construct a democratic and human culture that you'll never would have alone. Anglo-americans were so noble and progressive 60 years ago, with a nation that bring so bad in this world.
So I'm sure, that they will do million times better after sixty years, with much better persons that herrenwolk.


To say it again, Germany was rebuilt by its own power. Just read a history book. And there was nothing noble in it, just strategy.

If the startegy gives me bread when I'm starving, gives me medicines when I'm dying, protects me when I'm undefendeable (russians want to drstroy the geramn state for ever!), gives me the possibility to construct a future for my children, perhaps is in the interest of the strateg, but my opinion is that for me is a NOBLE strategy, and at least I have the human duty to be G R A T E F U L L!

[ARBERESH]

To say it again, Germany was rebuilt by its own power. Just read a history book. .


To make it easier to you if you cant read german, Germany got 6,4 Billion DM Credit and paid 13 Billion back. Really, sounds not like a bad business for the USA.

Now wait a minute. Can you make a 3rd posting to break the tie. Seems like you can't decide which it is.

Also, yes - banks are entitled to interest on loans. As an example of this simple concept, go to an online mortgage calculator. I did, and I found that on a 30 year mortgage;

I borrow $200,000
I pay back $316,000

And that's with an interest rate of 3.3%, which is a great rate.

Now, if I was unemployed, and had just tried to rob, capture, kill, enslave, or otherwise destroy the very bank I borrowed from, they likely wouldn't give me such good terms. They might charge me 10% interest. Then it's;

I borrow $200,000
I pay back $632,000

And 10% is pretty generous.

You didn't mention the grant money, which did not need to be repaid at all.

And doesn't mention to the fact, that is thank to anglo-americans that today is a Germany and german language is not a forbiden language. Cause Russia and their good allie the France, had some projects for you, as divideing FOREVER all the German territories including Austria.
They were ready to shave their blood for your interests!

[Russian Texan]

russians want to drstroy the geramn state for ever!


Cause Russia and their good allie the France, had some projects for you, as divideing FOREVER all the German territories including Austria.


:cantbeli:

http://www.click-smilies.de/sammlung0304/sprachlos/speechless-smiley-004.gif

[HELEX]

@2Sheds_Jackson

Has the United States already paid reparations to the native americans and the Slaves who build up your countrys wealth? rofl

[Loco]

@2Sheds_Jackson

Has the United States already paid reparations to the native americans and the Slaves who build up your countrys wealth? rofl
A cheap answer, btw. I was waiting for reading something like that.

[ARBERESH]

@2Sheds_Jackson

Has the United States already paid reparations to the native americans and the Slaves who build up your countrys wealth? rofl

Every nation has his debts with the History.
I think they have paid a lot with the minorances in USA, and they still have to pay, and will pay!
Cause are civil!
Tell me what your country paid?
You have thieft half of the world, only distructed, and never pay a penny!
Instead, they paid your debts and saved your ass!
What a error!

[Royal]

I'm not talking about just showing the images of a burning vehicle - but the video of the bodies being dragged/hung etc. They wouldn't show pics of their own citizens at home in that condition.

That's exactly what I was talking about.

I repeat my question. Am I complicit?

[Russian Texan]

You have thieft half of the world, only distructed, and never pay a penny!

Wrong, Germans paid out/still paying large amounts of money to the Nazi regime victims.

[HELEX]

Tell me what your country paid?

More than $50 Billions so far you Moron. That is more Money your country willo have next 600 Years.


"I FELT THE wings of world history beating in this room," a somber West German Chancellor Konrad Adenauer told the Jewish leader Nahum Goldmann in 1951, when the two met secretly to prepare the way for talks on German reparations for the attempt to annihilate European Jewry. Both men were aware of the momentous moral significance of their encounter. Neither one of them could have foreseen the magnitude of the resulting commitment.

Today, nearly half a century after the liberation of the Nazi concentration camps, the Federal Republic of Germany has paid out more than $50 billion in the form of reparations to the State of Israel and indemnification to Holocaust survivors. The German Finance Ministry estimates that it will pay out almost $20 billion more by the year 2030, when according to its current calculations the last survivor will have died. Yet what the German government calls Wiedergutmachung, literally meaning "making good again," can never truly be completed. Most Jews and some Germans avoid the term Wiedergutmachung altogether, considering it to be naive.

Fear that the memory of the Holocaust may recede with time has in recent years prompted an international outpouring of books and films, and a proliferation of monuments to the Holocaust's victims. Amid these acts of commemoration a little-known organization persists in seeking benefits for tens of thousands of survivors who have still not been indemnified, and at the same time monitors Germany's compliance with existing compensation agreements. For the New York-based Conference on Jewish Material Claims Against Germany, founded by Goldmann in 1951, memory alone is insufficient. The conference has spent the past four decades quietly working behind closed doors, acting as the go-between for the victims of Nazi persecution and officials of the democratic state that arose from the ashes of the Third Reich. An umbrella group representing twenty-four Jewish organizations in the United States, France, Britain, Canada, Germany, Argentina, Australia, South Africa, and Israel, the conference negotiated concurrently with Israel the original 1952 West German agreements on reparations and indemnification. Last autumn the conference concluded a major accord under which the newly unified Germany pledged to pay more than half a billion dollars to Jews around the world who endured persecution but until now have received little or no compensation because they failed to meet complex legal criteria. During the German unification talks the United States, long concerned about East Germany's refusal to accept responsibility for Nazi atrocities, had pressed for the commitment when negotiating withdrawal as an occupying power.

Survivors in marginal financial circumstances, many of them refugees from Eastern Europe who missed a 1965 cutoff date for earlier compensation, will be covered by the new agreement. It is expected to furnish more than 25,000 victims with pensions of around $300 a month, starting in 1995, provided that the victims were incarcerated in a concentration camp for at least six months or spent at least eighteen months in a ghetto or in hiding. Another 40,000 survivors who do not meet these criteria will receive one-time payments of 5,000 marks (about $3,000). For the time being, cash-strapped Germany has committed itself to making the monthly payments only through the end of 1999.

THE ANNOUNCEMENT of the new accord last November swiftly aroused expectations among needy survivors, who have packed the shabby waiting room of the claims conference's Manhattan headquarters, jammed its telephone lines, and mailed in tens of thousands of requests for applications for the new benefits. In response the conference has doubled its staff, to more than ninety in its offices in New York, Frankfurt, and Tel Aviv.

For the past two decades the austere New York headquarters have been in a midtown office building. The walls are covered with yellowing maps depicting the sites of former concentration camps and also Wehrmacht troop movements across Europe. The scene brings to mind the Vienna base of the war-crimes investigator Simon Wiesenthal. Here, too, a warren of chambers is crowded with files and boxed documents, in an atmosphere of ethical imperative. In one room a team of seven recent Jewish immigrants from the former Soviet Union work ten-hour days addressing envelopes and stuffing them with bilingual applications (in English and German) for the new benefits. The completed questionnaires often are returned paper-clipped with a snapshot of an elderly man or woman, a tattooed arm in the foreground. Photocopies of passports, diplomas, naturalization papers, and affidavits accompany the forms.

One page of the application is given over to a request for a "detailed description of persecution." Some answers are short and to the point. A woman who survived confinement in Lodz wrote: "I was forced to work in the ghetto. My entire family was killed." Others fill all thirty-one lines provided, frequently with fractured English.

Accounts of torment are commonplace here. "I read them every day," says Gerta Feigin, a sixty-five-year-old former lawyer from Latvia who oversees the processing of applications before they are sent to Germany. "And still, every time you take a horrible case in your hands, you just tremble."

Fluent in German, Russian, and English, Feigin possesses a specialized knowledge that is essential for the verification of claims. When further information is required, she personally interviews applicants. A small number are rejected as fraudulent. "I know every ghetto and every concentration camp," she says. "And I start to ask, Where did you live? Did You live in a barracks? What food did you get? At what time was the Appell [roll-call]? If he says it was at six o'clock in Auschwitz, then he's lying, because there the Appell was at nine."

Hysteria sometimes emerges when survivors must summon painful memories in a face-to-face interview. Some project their pain and anguish on the claims conference. "I wish I could wave a magic wand and the whole trauma would disappear," Saul Kagan, the executive director, said late one evening after patiently responding to a series of phone calls from yet another disturbed survivor. A native of what is now Vilnius, in what was then Poland, Kagan, who is now seventy, has been a key figure in the claims conference since its inception. He himself managed to come to the United States before German troops invaded Poland, but his mother and brother did not survive the occupation. Kagan was a member of the original conference negotiating team.

BEFORE THE 1952 agreements there was no precedent in international law for a nation-state to assume responsibility for crimes it committed against a minority within its jurisdiction, and no precedent for collective claims of this kind. Even if nothing can call the dead back to life or obliterate the crimes, Nahum Goldmann wrote in his memoirs, "this agreement is one of the few great victories for moral principles in modern times." Pragmatism went hand in hand with morality for both German and Jewish negotiators. Adenauer recognized that reparations were the price for West Germany's admission into the community of civilized nations. And although many Jews rejected the idea of "blood money," the new government of Israel desperately needed financial support. Prime Minister David Ben-Gurion maintained that the killing of the European Jews was a crime for which material reparation could never atone. But his government argued that damages were owed to the heirs of victims, and were needed for survivors' reintegration into normal life. There was plenty to lay claim to. At war's end billions of dollars' worth of plundered Jewish property, including real-estate holdings, securities, jewelry, artworks, and furniture, remained in German hands. "The German people continue to enjoy the fruits of the butcheries and plundering of its leaders of yesterday," an Israeli government statement declared, augmenting the charge with a biblical quotation, from I Kings 21:19: "Hast thou killed and also taken possession?"

The claims conference carefully chose its name to stress the purely material nature of the action and to signal that no quid pro quo was involved, no policy of forgive and forget that somehow suggested the equivalence of six million deaths and a monetary sum. Still, the creation of the conference threw many Jews into emotional turmoil. When the Israeli Parliament convened to approve the negotiations, demonstrators smashed Knesset windows; at least 180 people were injured. Adenauer for his part faced objections from financial advisers to any large-scale payments -- West Germany's "economic miracle" was not yet in evidence. Both Adenauer and Goldmann received threats of violence. An explosives expert was killed detonating a mail bomb sent to Adenauer by Jewish extremists. Once a decision was made to proceed, it was out of the question for the Jewish side that talks be held on German soil. Instead they took place in seclusion outside The Hague.

Under the terms of the initial accords West Germany paid $714 million to Israel in compensation for Israel's having taken in uprooted Jewish refugees, and about $110 million to the claims conference to help rebuild shattered European Jewish communities and to support Holocaust research institutions and hundreds of schools, old-age homes, and synagogues around the world. As part of the $714 million payment Israel received German-financed shipments of oil and other raw materials that enabled it to build its modern infrastructure. The 1952 accords further obliged West Germany to compensate individuals for loss of liberty, property, and relatives' lives, and for injury to health and professional advancement. Germany is now paying lifelong pensions to 170,000 Holocaust survivors and their heirs. At a peak period as many as 275,000 were receiving pensions.

Legislation excludes victims who are not German citizens and remained in their country of origin after the war. West Germany argued that such people have been covered by bilateral accords between Bonn and European governments which provided payments for these states themselves to assist those persecuted by the Nazis. Although the scope of eligibility for direct indemnification has been broadened over the years in response to claims-conference lobbying, the conference failed in its repeated efforts to get an extension of the 1965 deadline by which claimants had to file. Its primary concern was that thousands of Jews who were living hehind the Iron Curtain after the war and who later emigrated were unable to apply for compensation. All the same, many inequities remained, and after Eastern European Jews began to emigrate to the West in large numbers, although the deadline was past West Germany did agree, in 1980, to make one-time payments of about $3,000 from a hardship fund that is being replenished under the latest accord and is administered by the claims conference.

Beyond the official contacts, the claims conference has negotiated compensation to individuals from some of the companies that benefited from Jewish slave labor, including I. G. Farben, Siemens, and Krupp. Their payments are seen by the conference as morally significant. They are also exceedingly modest. "Cold and niggardly" is how Telford Taylor, the chief U.S. prosecutor at the Nuremberg trials, has described them. More-recent negotiations with two other firms, Daimler-Benz and Volkswagen, have resulted in grants to institutions sheltering and providing care to infirm Holocaust survivors.

The conference awaits a further injection of funds from the sale of property once owned by Jewish individuals and organizations in eastern Germany, where assets seized by the Nazis were never returned, having been swiftly nationalized by the Communist rulers. Since the reunification of Germany, in 1990, the conference has been designated by the German government as having rights to such property when no heirs remain. The conference has submitted scores of claims over the past two years.

Claims-conterence officials nowadays meet with German officials in Bonn as a matter of course. The relationship has become "almost routine," says Hermann Josef Brodesser, the chief of the Finance Ministry's Section for Indemnification of National Socialist Injustice. "All of us, on both sides, know what happened and so on," Brodesser says. "Therefore there are appropriate solutions to be found, and we work together in a very businesslike manner." Rabbi Israel Miller, who took over as conference president after Goldmann's death, in 1982, says, "The people who we're dealing with now in the main were not even alive at that time, and they don't feel any kind of guilt." However, the conference is watching developments in Germany with some concern. An October, 1990, opinion poll for the American Jewish Committee found that 66 percent of Germans believed that reparations should stop. Germany is spending billions of dollars a year to rebuild the formerly Communist eastern part of the country, and plans to curb state spending for social programs have sparked voter hostility over the mounting economic demands of unification.

"There is now a new generation in Germany that is shouldering the tax burden, that does not have the same memories of the war," says Sidney Clearfield, the executive vice-president of B'nai B'rith International, a claims-conference constituent group. "There's a feeling of enough is enough." Nonetheless, the conference is intent on ensuring that as many needy survivors as possible live out their final years in dignity. A meeting with German officials is planned for 1994 to review the efficacy of the latest accord.

For this singular body the bottom line is not just deutsche marks but the principle of accountability. Kagan notes with satisfaction that Germany, by accepting responsibility for its predecessor government, has taken a step that has overriding moral significance for the international community. In this late- twentieth-century world of genocidal impulses and "ethnic cleansing," the precedents that have been set may be needed again.

[ARBERESH]

[quote]Tell me what your country paid?

More than $50 Billions so far you Moron. That is more Money your country willo have next 600 Years.



My country was disctructed by nazi regime, and never received!
POINT!

[usa320]

I think todays events in Fallujah were nothing short of disgusting. Any loss of life is unwanted, but the mutilations and dragging were completely and utterly disgusting. I think we need to say enough is enough with fallujah. I say cordon of the whole god damn city with a whole god damn armored division if you have too, and search every single house, every building, every hospital, every school, every outdoor ****ter, room by room. There are far too many guns, RPG's and explosives in that city. I think the Marine's strategy of hearts and minds will be found highly effective in every city in Iraq, besides fallujah. I think they need to send in some armored divisions, with serious air support...low flying A-10's and B-52's. Set up alot of checkpoints. Until we get the weapons out of that town it will continue to be a haven for these people. Also, i think we need to speed up production of body armor and these new IED detection systems and get them to the battle area as fast as possible. Also i think they should double the number of Strykers being produced and send every single battle ready stryker to Iraq, while sending as many humvees back to the states as possible. Quickly modify the humvees with excessive floor plating and armor, then send them back.

I noticed alot of armor being jury rigged to humvees- i think that should have been done the right way (look at an Israeli hummer compared to ours) far before the war ever started.

Bottom line though is it was our duty as the civilized world to rid Iraq of the inhuman terror that was Saddam Hussein, and it is our obligation to stay there and see this thing through. I just think we need to be a bit more heavy handed when dealing with the "Sunni Triangle".

[HELEX]

@ARBERESH


My country was disctructed by nazi regime, and never received!
POINT!

So tell me, WHAT in your country was destroyed??? There was simply nothing to destroy.

[2Sheds_Jackson]

@2Sheds_Jackson

Has the United States already paid reparations to the native americans and the Slaves who build up your countrys wealth? rofl

L - A - M - E

WTF has that got to do with anything? How far back shall we go? Should the Romans pay you? Stay on point if you want to be taken seriously.

By the way, US taxpayers - you know, the ones who pay for everything here, the ones with all my courntry's wealth, have paid the "have-nots" of the country some $3 Trillion by way of the "great society".

[ARBERESH]

28 thousand persons killed, 4 thousand sterminated in the lagers, houses, farms destructed, animals (chickens too) sequestrated, gold reserve of the state (1200 kg, few but OUR), taken by nazi, streets bridges expolosed.

We are speaking here for the tragical death of some soldiers that merit much more respekt than your assasins in soldier's uniform.
So go to hell and don't piss around again!

[Operation Ivy]

America is just so damn evil :roll:

[HELEX]

@ARBERESH

Very simple, East block Countrys werent allowed to take help from the west because Moscows policy. They offcially refused to take Money... now its to late.

[M1A2U2]

" 'Why do the they hate us?' Well, I don't believe there's any answer to that question that could ever explain, justify, or excuse these savages from their decision to deface the bodies of these people. And anyone who's inclined to waste much time dwelling on such a question just isn't likely to have much grasp on the reality of evil in the world." esp. mustamato

[Old300]

Good point, Jackson: welfare is a form of reparations. So are public education and many government clerical jobs. All of these areas are wildly over-subscribed (as a proportion of population) by Black Americans. That's not to say that what was done to them 140 years ago and before is alright; nor that we don't need to do anything else; but it is to suggest that we have transferred an immense amount of wealth to the (very distant) descendants of slaves. And at the risk of repeating what has come to be a cliche, I think it would be helpful to note that a Black man born in a (relatively) terrible American city like Detroit is infinitely better off than a Black man born in Lagos, Abidjan, or any other place whence his ancestors came to America.

What does that have to do with the deaths of 5 brave civilians who were in a wretched place trying to help some wretched (in the sense of poor and otherwise deprived) people? Absolutely nothing. But the anti-American rants of those whose standard of living is due mostly to our grandfathers' largesse got us here...

[ARBERESH]

@ARBERESH

Very simple, East block Countrys werent allowed to take help from the west because Moscows policy. They offcially refused to take Money... now its to late.
So you admited that we merit a war repair?
But the money offered was US money!!!
Hahaha, this guy pays the debts with money of others!
Why don't you pay now? With the interests sure?
So I can have back my grandpa ford truck, my horses, cows, house, shop. Not 19 persons from my village, massacrated, includeing the priest!! (120 persons all the village)

[talib_killa34]

"Five soldiers die in Iraqi blast"



:|

Why is this discussion about slavery, Albania, and WWII reparations????

What the hell does that have to do with five 1st Infantry soldiers losing their lives to hostile action today?

:(

[ARBERESH]

"Five soldiers die in Iraqi blast"



:|

Why is this discussion about slavery, Albania, and WWII reparations????

What the hell does that have to do with five 1st Infantry soldiers losing their lives to hostile action today?

:(

Because some nazi here, was happy for what US soldiers suffered.

[MaDuce]

Lets look at this from an anthropological view point. Traditionally nomadic Arabs loyalty is first to the clan and second to the tribe and no loyalty beyond this. Therefore these primitive groups have no national sense. Many Arab ethnic groups have always used force to accomplish their goals, as it is the language they understand. As Saddam's childhood shows out, lying cheating stealing, and killing is commonplace in the Sunni triangle and Tikrit. It has been like this forever. The "I just killed most of your clan so now I will chop you head of with this scimitar and rape you wife and daughter and add them to my harem." Embarrassment is a weapon often employed in the Arab world and rape is a good way to go about this. For example American POW Jessica Lynch was sodomized several times with foreign objects after she was captured. So it is logical the coalition responds with force. But one of the strategies that used by the Arabs oddly enough is world opinion. When Coalition forces defend themselves they are trumpeted throughout the world as war criminals while on the other hand when they kill coalitions forces they will be played out as freedom fighters even if they are killing civilian reconstruction workers. Just my 2 cents.

[Argyll]

For example American POW Jessica Lynch was sodomized several times with foreign objects after she was captured

Proof? before making such accusations MaDeuce.
I was under the belief that nothing was proven over these "alleged" assaults,it was suspected she had been ******ly assaulted,but she had no recollection of this happening to her,oddly her "amnesia" recovery also fails to either confirm or deny it.

I'd like to hear clinical evidence to substantiate these claims.........just to be on the safe side

[talib_killa34]

Lets look at this from an anthropological view point. Traditionally nomadic Arabs loyalty is first to the clan and second to the tribe and no loyalty beyond this. Therefore these primitive groups have no national sense. Many Arab ethnic groups have always used force to accomplish their goals, as it is the language they understand. As Saddam's childhood shows out, lying cheating stealing, and killing is commonplace in the Sunni triangle and Tikrit. It has been like this forever. The "I just killed most of your clan so now I will chop you head of with this scimitar and rape you wife and daughter and add them to my harem." Embarrassment is a weapon often employed in the Arab world and rape is a good way to go about this. For example American POW Jessica Lynch was sodomized several times with foreign objects after she was captured. So it is logical the coalition responds with force. But one of the strategies that used by the Arabs oddly enough is world opinion. When Coalition forces defend themselves they are trumpeted throughout the world as war criminals while on the other hand when they kill coalitions forces they will be played out as freedom fighters even if they are killing civilian reconstruction workers. Just my 2 cents.

Agreed.

Just another F'ng country the US will never understand.

[MaDuce]

It's in her book I belive.

[Argyll]

I thought it was a mere speculation in her book,as she herself has no recollection of it happening,that's the problem with "Ghost writers" they add some stuff to ensure the books are compelling........look at Andy MacNabb with Bravo 20

[MaDuce]

I think the Medical exaimener said there was tearing and pieces of wood. And since rape is a tradition in the Iraqi military I am assuming it wasn't shrapnel from an exploded tree.

[ARBERESH]

I thought it was a mere speculation in her book,as she herself has no recollection of it happening,that's the problem with "Ghost writers" they add some stuff to ensure the books are compelling........look at Andy MacNabb with Bravo 20

By the way Argyll, what about McNabb? Is reliable?

[Garibaldi]

First of all, I´m very sorry for the poor guys that died in the attack, and I find body dessacration unnaceptable.
But let´s be objective, Iraq is not undergoing a peace mission directed by the UN, nor is a legal governement that sought international assistance from other countries (as happened with the republic of South Korea in 1949). Iraq was an independent country that has been occupied by force by foreign powers in violation of international law. The contractors attacked were civilian personnel hired by the occupation forces, therefore they can be considered targets.
Remember even the french ressitance targeted german (and even french!) civilian contractors in WWII working in occupied France. And that american forces targeted also civilian infrastructure as TV stations in the Kosovo war.

[California Joe]

You don't play well with others do you.

[XASA]

First of all, I´m very sorry for the poor guys that died in the attack, and I find body dessacration unnaceptable.
But let´s be objective, Iraq is not undergoing a peace mission directed by the UN, nor is a legal governement that sought international assistance from other countries (as happened with the republic of South Korea in 1949). Iraq was an independent country that has been occupied by force by foreign powers in violation of international law. The contractors attacked were civilian personnel hired by the occupation forces, therefore they can be considered targets.
Remember even the french ressitance targeted german (and even french!) civilian contractors in WWII working in occupied France. And that american forces targeted also civilian infrastructure as TV stations in the Kosovo war.

You picked the wrong thread at the wrong time with wrong intentions to introduce yourself to militaryphotos.net. Go troll some place else. There are enough idiots already in residence here.

[ArmedPacifist]

"Five soldiers die in Iraqi blast"



:|

Why is this discussion about slavery, Albania, and WWII reparations????

What the hell does that have to do with five 1st Infantry soldiers losing their lives to hostile action today?

:(

Because some nazi here, was happy for what US soldiers suffered.

I remember him writing several times that he was not happy about this, he merely feels their deaths could have been avoided had there been no war with Iraq.

[ARBERESH]

First of all, I´m very sorry for the poor guys that died in the attack, and I find body dessacration unnaceptable.
But let´s be objective, Iraq is not undergoing a peace mission directed by the UN, nor is a legal governement that sought international assistance from other countries (as happened with the republic of South Korea in 1949). Iraq was an independent country that has been occupied by force by foreign powers in violation of international law. The contractors attacked were civilian personnel hired by the occupation forces, therefore they can be considered targets.
Remember even the french ressitance targeted german (and even french!) civilian contractors in WWII working in occupied France. And that american forces targeted also civilian infrastructure as TV stations in the Kosovo war.


Is a kind of illness in italy, the "pacifisti", with their gay-rainbow bander.
Only a stupid gay!

You picked the wrong thread at the wrong time with wrong intentions to introduce yourself to militaryphotos.net. Go troll some place else. There are enough idiots already in residence here.

[XASA]

First of all, I´m very sorry for the poor guys that died in the attack, and I find body dessacration unnaceptable.
But let´s be objective, Iraq is not undergoing a peace mission directed by the UN, nor is a legal governement that sought international assistance from other countries (as happened with the republic of South Korea in 1949). Iraq was an independent country that has been occupied by force by foreign powers in violation of international law. The contractors attacked were civilian personnel hired by the occupation forces, therefore they can be considered targets.
Remember even the french ressitance targeted german (and even french!) civilian contractors in WWII working in occupied France. And that american forces targeted also civilian infrastructure as TV stations in the Kosovo war.


Is a kind of illness in italy, the "pacifisti", with their gay-rainbow bander.
Only a stupid gay!

You picked the wrong thread at the wrong time with wrong intentions to introduce yourself to militaryphotos.net. Go troll some place else. There are enough idiots already in residence here.

Mods Please Note: Albanian altered my quote to insert the following: "Is a kind of illness in italy, the "pacifisti", with their gay-rainbow bander.
Only a stupid gay!"

Yet another violation of the rules.

[ARBERESH]

I meaned guy!

[XASA]

I meaned guy!

No, you just think your mean. Perhaps the trauma you have experienced makes you want to be something you are not.

[Garibaldi]

Wrong thread: mmm... don´t think so.
Wrong time: could be.
Wrong intentions: of course not.

As far as I know, only the moderator can send me "troll some place else" or cut me down.
and I have already experienced that "are enough idiots already in residence here".
Salutti per tutti.[/i]

[bobdakilla]

i say nuke the ****ing iraqies those dumb **** suckers

[California Joe]

Jesus, the brain trust really turned out in this thread. :roll:

[XASA]

:cantbeli:

[ARBERESH]

I meaned guy!

No, you just think your mean. Perhaps the trauma you have experienced makes you want to be something you are not.

go to hell ****head!

[California Joe]

Brilliant. Kudos on your verbal fencing skills.

[XASA]

Brilliant. Kudos on your verbal fencing skills.

Joe,

You should read the PM he sent me. You would really be impressed with his communication skills, especially when he writes about his obsession with oral ***.

...which reminds me of what it was like to be in Bangkok on a R&R with two months pay and three days to spend it...

Sorry for the digression ;)

[Maverick77]

i say nuke the f*** iraqies those dumb **** suckers

That should get an award or something.


Garabaldi or whatever the **** his name is....

I agree with him they were hired by occupation forces therefore it is nothing out of the ordinary that they were targetted by resistance forces.

He doesnt mean that its good that it happened, it is definatly not. But he is right when he says that.

Too bad the Iraqis are so ****ing stupid they dont realize those people are there to help.

[California Joe]

Brilliant. Kudos on your verbal fencing skills.

Joe,

You should read the PM he sent me. You would really be impressed with his communication skills, especially when he writes about his obsession with oral ***.

...which reminds me of what it was like to be in Bangkok on a R&R with two months pay and three days to spend it...

Sorry for the digression ;)

You'll have to relate that story to me one of these days as I'll want a frame of referrence for the PM he sends to me next. ;)

[MK133]

Sucks

[MaDuce]

They where hired to repair there goddam country i say we give the sunnis their own idependent country in the triangle. There is no oil there so they will have no economy and see how they like it.

[GrimmyRX]

First of all, I´m very sorry for the poor guys that died in the attack, and I find body dessacration unnaceptable.
But let´s be objective, Iraq is not undergoing a peace mission directed by the UN, nor is a legal governement that sought international assistance from other countries (as happened with the republic of South Korea in 1949). Iraq was an independent country that has been occupied by force by foreign powers in violation of international law. The contractors attacked were civilian personnel hired by the occupation forces, therefore they can be considered targets.
Remember even the french ressitance targeted german (and even french!) civilian contractors in WWII working in occupied France. And that american forces targeted also civilian infrastructure as TV stations in the Kosovo war.

A very good point in a thread where the word "Savage" and "barbarian" have been often used.

[talib_killa34]

Yeah so by all means let's compare suicide bombers to the french resistance in WWII.

I hope the whole world rallies behind their cause and help chase the american imperialists out of peaceful Iraq... :roll:


Cripes sake.

[Jack Mehoff]

Murdered and mutilated people who deliever food and water to your city. ****ing savages :bash:


The four American civilians killed were employees of Blackwater Security Consulting, the U.S. government contractor providing security for food deliveries in Fallujah, the company said.

A company statement said their exact identities were not yet known, but "our thoughts and prayers are with their families."

According to its Web site, the company was founded in 1996 to meet the demand of government outsourcing of security.

http://edition.cnn.com/2004/WORLD/meast/03/31/iraq.main/index.html

[ibstolidude]

The four American civilians killed were employees of Blackwater Security Consulting, the U.S. government contractor providing security for food deliveries in Fallujah, the company said.
BSC i didn't know.

Our prayers are with your families.

[MK133]

I bet this photo on the Blackwater site gets pulled

http://www.blackwatersecurity.com/

[big_les]

Don't forget that though Blackwater may be tasked with providing aid, the dead were *security* personnel, ie to all intents and purposes paramilitary operators. As far as Iraqi resistance is concerned, perfectly valid targets.

That said, there's only one word to describe the actions of the Sunni muslims of Fallujah - despicable. By definition, they *are* savages, but don't tar all Iraqis with the same brush.

[Haiw]

Nuke them, make Fallujah a crater, yaddah yaddah yaddah!
Might seem 'weak', but I don't think there's any more than trying to catch the people that did it, try and increase counterinsurgency efforts and at the same time trying to win hearts and minds that you can do. Going totally postal on the population as a reaction on this will only make things worse, and send the region in a downwards spiral of violence.

[GrimmyRX]

Yeah so by all means let's compare suicide bombers to the french resistance in WWII.

I hope the whole world rallies behind their cause and help chase the american imperialists out of peaceful Iraq... :roll:


Cripes sake.

There were no S.B's in this case.

[talib_killa34]

Yeah so by all means let's compare suicide bombers to the french resistance in WWII.

I hope the whole world rallies behind their cause and help chase the american imperialists out of peaceful Iraq... :roll:


Cripes sake.

There were no S.B's in this case.

Umm.. yeah not this time but they have been used before in Iraq.

Mostly IED's though but the same principle and motive.