Can anyone use a compass

[Royal]

I mean can you really use one, can you measure pace, judge distance and locate yourself when your GPS goes t**s up?

I've been pretty complacent about basic navigation skills, hell, I'm a Mountain Leader so I should be good at it, but I was reading an article in an Army journal earlier and it got me wondering.

The author is the WOI at the jungle warfare training centre in Brunei (which will shortly shut - leaving the UK with no non-SF jungle warfare capability) :cantbeli:

He's noticed over the past few years that candidates on the JWI's course (all Infantry, RM or RAF Regt Cpls or above) had to be re-taught to navigate pretty much from scratch.

For those of you who've never worked in primary jungle, GPS is pretty much useless and you'll struggle to take a back bearing from the nearest church steeple...

I'm interested in what our friends across the pond think - I'm also worried that we will loose yet another skill that we will need to re-learn in the near future.

[Herrmannek]

Thoreticaly yes, but never had occasion to do so :(

[Tane Angle]

Yeah (I sure hope I still do). It is a lost art, it seems sometimes.

[California Joe]

I can land navigate using a compass fairly well, hell I grew up in the woods. But not at the level you're talking about. You bring up a valid point. Are navigation and fieldcraft being replaced by GPS and other technology in a lot of cases? Seems a return to basics may be in order...

[NcDeuce]

I've been doing it ever since I was a kid, but if you don't practice...it can be difficult.

My pace count is 57 in the open. :D

I've never used a GPS device :oops:

[Mr Gently Benevolent]

Yes on some trips, despite the £20,000 of navigational gear that is on the boat I work on during most of the year the compass and pencil still gets some use.

[Herrmannek]

Any FMs avialable? I would like to face my knowledge with something wrote on paper?
And what kind of commpas i should buy. I'm not asking about brand but much more about technology and extras...What kind of "hand" mount(fluid, needle etc), "aiming" system etc..
I will probably use it in -20C to +40C temp range with snow & rains, but without dust storms?

Any funny/scary stories involving commpas use?

[NcDeuce]

Any FMs avialable? I would like to face my knowledge with something wrote on paper?
And what kind of commpas i should buy. I'm not asking about brand but much more about technology and extras...What kind of "hand" mount(fluid, needle etc), "aiming" system etc..
I will probably use it in -20C to +40C temp range with snow & rains, but without dust storms?

Any funny/scary stories involving commpas use?

Before an exercise, make sure your compass works...
Also, make sure you are away from lead and stuff when you're doing this...

rofl

[WARPIG]

We have the same problem here. Pluggers..(GPS) have become common place and the compass has found it's way to a seldom used pocket. (if it is carried at all)
I can see the use of a compass being uncommon, but land navigation doesn't seem to be a common task anymore.
I personally don't get around a plugger very much.. but I know it is a really great tool to have... if the battery isn't dead.
I have a terrible sense of direction... I tend to over correct for my drift.. and usually not enough confidence in my pace. (It is also 57 in the open.) But I have kept the skill to standard. Actually better than standard.
It is definately becoming a lost art on this side of the pond as well.

[Herrmannek]

We have the same problem here. Pluggers..(GPS) have become common place and the compass has found it's way to a seldom used pocket. (if it is carried at all)
I can see the use of a compass being uncommon, but land navigation doesn't seem to be a common task anymore.
I personally don't get around a plugger very much.. but I know it is a really great tool to have... if the battery isn't dead.
I have a terrible sense of direction... I tend to over correct for my drift.. and usually not enough confidence in my pace. (It is also 57 in the open.) But I have kept the skill to standard. Actually better than standard.
It is definately becoming a lost art on this side of the pond as well.

One aimed EMP bomb and we are "fuked" :( BTW does commpasses also work after EMP?

[Argyll]

What's a compass? ;)

[wulfstan]

Hell, I get lost in my kitchen. I'd need compass training to get back from the pub.... ;)

[Royal]

Any funny/scary stories involving commpas use?

How about the officer cadet that taped his compass to the barrel of his rifle on a night navex and strangely got very lost :cantbeli: he put his rifle on the bonnet of the DS LandRover while his idiocy was pointed out to him, then went off without it :cantbeli:

I use one of these (or rather two - I carry a back up; one in my shirt/smock and one in my vest)

http://www.silva.se/outdoor/products/img/pro_com54_delar.jpg

and one of these for real accuracy

http://www.sirsproducts.com/img117.gif

[Herrmannek]

:cantbeli:

[Flagg]

Land navigation is something I really enjoyed learning in basic.

We spent a considerable amount of time on the fundamentals and I practice to remain proficient.

For me, I've found that as long as I stay proficient, obtaining a quick 6 point grid reference with a map, protractor, and compass is almost second nature.....in open country.

Recent experience in VERY close country taught me a couple of things:

1.) Reliance on GPS is dangerous.....as often we couldn't obtain a single satellite on the handheld as the canopy was quite dense and the steep terrain didn't allow for the necessary line of sight.....we periodically had to move to a higher elevation to get a GPS fix.

2.) Accurate pace-counting and maintaining a compass bearing in very close and/or steep country is EXTREMELY difficult to do itself...attempting to effectively patrol at the same time makes it even more challenging.

3.) I found myself imagining how difficult it must have been for jungle patrols to effectively navigate in places like Malaya and Vietnam, pre-GPS.

I found a good method to use for land navigation is to first obtain a "manual" grid reference/compass bearing/back bearing/etc and only then verify accuracy with handheld.....that way I am maintaining proficiency while still obtaining GPS accurancy as a backup.

I reckon the only way to develop and maintain effective "manual" land navigation skills is practice, practice, practice.



The author is the WOI at the jungle warfare training centre in Brunei (which will shortly shut - leaving the UK with no non-SF jungle warfare capability)

I'm looking forward to a trip to Brunei late in the year. If anyone's been, I'd be keen to learn more about your experience there.

[DANJANOU]

Royal I'm tempted to post your question on a Canadian Army forum, but I'm afraid of the answer I'd get. I think this another case of a basic soldier skill lost because of over reliance on "shiny kit"

For the record I still have my old Silva Ranger and can still remember how to use it. Mind it comes with me when I go a visiting in strange and wonderous places these days.

[Undo]

I can use one in the military sense, but only just. One of the many core skills that I lacked moving from the Navy to the Army. Having never gone to AIT, I never even got the basic Army drill. It was actually scary, and I am glad I wasn't deployed in that condition. There I was, a Sgt. and a track commander having to ask my Spc. about all this stuff I should have known back to front. Embarrassing. Fortunately most of it worked itself out pretty quickly. Still, one of the many reasons I am concerned about the Guards operational readiness and being deployed to combat zones.

Sorry about the tangent. Agree, too much dependency on the whizbang gadgets.

[Flagg]

http://www.hairyscaryevolutions.com/images/pics/evo/compass.jpg

This looks like the compass I use.....

[Mark Sman]

I keep a silva in the car with the maps, and I keep my lensatic in my pack for when I get to hit the woods. I don't carry it in the pack in the woods of course, its just convienent to store it there.

I live in flat and, except for water, featureless country. Its really easy to get a good pace count and distance estimate, but there are almost never features to get a good bearing on. Still, a good DR will prety much cover the trips I take down here.

Last time out we were all in camp before we realized noone had brought a GPS. Didn't matter, I'm the youngest one and I'm in my mid-30s. Everyone I camp with learned on compass.

Hell I even used to be half decent with celestial navigation. I would definitetly have to reread the book, and spend a few weeks practicing before I'd put my keister on the line based on ephemeris.

[martinexsquaddie]

Doing a BELA at the moment so my compass work is getting better again last week up on the summit of one of the glidders in very low visability having to walk on a bearing to avoid a shear drop little scary.
civviy hiking magazines Say again and again GPS great AID to navagation but even when 100% working using it in high mountains without map and compass you will DIE.
my brother brought a GPS just before a major exercise in belgium did'nt read the manual and spent 2 weeks carrying a very expensive clock loves it now though great for map predictive fire with SF GPMGS.
might get a chance to play with it as when he gets home from the sandpit he's transferring to the medics and instant commission

[martinexsquaddie]

royal is marine mountain leader same as the civvy qualification or something diffrent

[MaDuce]

You think thats bad the cash machine at the store was broken the other day and a kid had to add 18 to 16 and he had to break out a calculator.

[flickme]

I think i could use one well enought to get where i need to go. Never had to use one like that though.

[usa320]

YES...i ACTUALLY CAN!!!!

Though i prefer GPS for obvious reasons.

[Ratamacue]

I know how to use a map/compass, but it's been about 2 years since I paced myself.

[James]

I know how to use a compass. I don't know how things are today, but in 1993/94 USMC recruit training and infantry training spent a great deal of time on old fashioned land navigation. Even after I went to the FMF, we relied on it for use in all climes and places - desert, mountains, and jungle. In the jungle, we often never even took a GPS out. Multiple Marines would maintain a pace count, and there was a designated navigator. Periodically, we would send the smallest guy up a tree to shoot an azimuth on a known feature if we thought we might be off course or our of position. We were more or less forced to learn to navigate w/ map and compass before we were ever allowed to so much as tough a GPS, and even then, there was generally only one GPS per platoon.

What I never leanred, and always wanted to (I will someday) is celestial navigation.

Anyway...

[farmgirl]

Let me know when you're ready to try out that celestial navigation.... I'll be your first mate.... :D

[Flagg]

I know how to use a map/compass, but it's been about 2 years since I paced myself.

Unless you've grown a couple of inches, lost a leg in a shark attack or you have a foreign object lodged in your butt, your pacing shouldn't have changed.


What I never leanred, and always wanted to (I will someday) is celestial navigation.

I know the feeling...I'm shopping for a sextant as a gift for a friend who just moved onto his boat....I've been thinking about getting two.

[Ratamacue]

I know how to use a map/compass, but it's been about 2 years since I paced myself.

Unless you've grown a couple of inches, lost a leg in a shark attack or you have a foreign object lodged in your butt, your pacing shouldn't have changed.

I'm 15 years old right now. I was 13 years old two years ago. Yeah, I'd say I've grown about 2 or 3 inches in that span of time. ;)

[Flagg]

I'm 15 years old right now. I was 13 years old two years ago. Yeah, I'd say I've grown about 2 or 3 inches in that span of time.

growing like a frickin' weed!

[Maine Finn]

I'm pretty "GPS-stupid".... but I can use a compass fairly well. I'm pretty good with a map, after a quick refresher. I haven't used either in a while, so I probably should get some retraining. D'you mean a regular compass, or a sighting compass? I've got a sighting compass and I like it a lot. Of course, it's also a Silva....

:D

Mine looks something like this one:

http://www.silvacompass.com/images/prod/420.jpg

Except that mine's a little older - I got it from the Maine Guide's Course I took last year. It's a handy thing to have.

[digrar]

On my recon course during the jungle phase we were tested dozens of times a day on our navigation. At any time we would be asked to give the DS a 8 figure grid and had to be accurate to within 10 metres. It's a great skill to have, but in the J as soon as you become geographically embarrased it is hard to find a reference point to get back on track.



http://www.silva.se/outdoor/products/img/pro_com54_delar.jpg

I also use one of these, but in mils not degrees.


And these are our issued gear.http://www.sirsproducts.com/img117.gif

[mocking_loudly_died]

Bah, when I was in my unit of ultimate bad ass’s (ages 6-10) I had no need for a compass.
I was radio man god damn it, radio man stays behind and guards the 101 slices of Australian cheese.

[ibstolidude]

Yes as it is kept current w/use w/out gps as is terrain association without a compass - besides unless you are doing huge movements w.loads of bad terrain - draws and stuff - it can be fun.

[PsihoKeke]

I have basic compass navigation skills. I have never used GPS sofar

[Imshi-Yallah]

Never even touched a GPS, they aren't issue to reservists and I couldnt be bothered paying for one.

[Apogee]

We do alot of land nav with just map and compass here. Admittitly, we only do it during the summers though, which is like any other military training really. We use the GI Tritium Lensatic (sp?) compass. We don't have GPS or pluggers here. I used to use a little Silva compass when I was a scout. While I do agree that land nav with just the bare essentials is a great skill to learn and maintain, I am thinking of purchasing a civilian GPS for mountaineering (don't worry, I'll still carry the Silva).

Great post Royal.

[FDF_Hemppis]

Sure didn't have a GPS while I was in the FDF...
Land navigation is somewhat a big part of the basic training,
and for the indirect fire troops it's naturally an essential skill.

The military issue suunto compass was a pretty important to have with you,
but I really made friend with the "kasisuuntakeha", I don't know what's that in english, but it's for measuring mils (The Finnish system has 6000) and looks a bit like this:

http://koti.mbnet.fi/funkie/KB_20_375pix.jpg

A Finnish fire support patrol is required to know it's location at 30m accuracy at all times, but usually a good NCO (like me ;)) makes 10m. Without a GPS.

[Haiw]

I'm too cheap for GPS...in fact I'm too cheap to even buy a compass. One time I was on a 80km+ rollerblading trip with a buddy. We kinda got lost and we actually had to navigate by the sun. No joke.