Hey Albanian!

[RomanS]

Due to respect for our American brothers,
I will start this topic to debate Chechen war and Albanian terrorists between me and you.

Civili conversation, civil debate.
No name calling, no photos of dead kids and lets see what turns out of this. Let other people watch it as well.

First of all,
Are you positive, 100% that no Albanians were fighting on the Khattab's side in Chechnya?

[ARBERESH]

OK!
My gentleman word of honour of an Albanian Officer and a Christian!

[RomanS]

My reports say, and have proof that there were many members from Albania fighting on Khattab's and Hamzat Gelaev's units.

[SerbPVO]

PermskiiOMON, can I recommend a book?

"My Jihad" by Aukai Collins. Can be found in most bookstores.
He's an american, who converted to Islam while in prison, and in his book, talks about his fighting in Checnya, Kosovo, Bosnia.

Basically, the view from a terrorist.

[RomanS]

PermskiiOMON, can I recommend a book?

"My Jihad" by Aukai Collins. Can be found in most bookstores.
He's an american, who converted to Islam while in prison, and in his book, talks about his fighting in Checnya, Kosovo, Bosnia.

Basically, the view from a terrorist.

I am aware of that person, and actually he lived in Arizona for a while.
He's now in prision in Mexico.
He also writes about Albanians in Chechnya with terrorists.

[ARBERESH]

My reports say, and have proof that there were many members from Albania fighting on Khattab's and Hamzat Gelaev's units.
I say NO!
Cause I am the one that fight the terrorism in Albania! I have all the dossiers of which can have extremist tendences of any kind!
Let us suppose that you are right!
How many? I conceed you 200 men! Which kind of men go from Albania to fight in Chechenya? A damned stupid looser! A flesh for the cannons!
No importance, no revelance!
They are 100 Albanian Commandos in Afghanistan, and are very much appreciated for good work. Other 75 are in Iraq, in October will go other 450 will go at october (probably me with them, but I feel myself too old, to grasse, and too smoker to pass the selection), and these men do good work!
Sure that in Albania are a lot of infiltration of terrorists, as lot of most wanted criminals, russians too hide in albania.
We are a poor country, we are getting out a tragic dictature, and have public order problems. But are things that can happen!
We stay very carefull to the religious extremists, cause we are a society with 5 religions, (moslims suni, moslims bektashi, catholics, orthodoxes, jews), and if extremism take flame, is our future in discussion.
And we are TOLLERANT.
A case, our President Mr. Alfred Moisiu, is a Jew. And jewish community is smaller that 1%.

[ARBERESH]

PermskiiOMON, can I recommend a book?

"My Jihad" by Aukai Collins. Can be found in most bookstores.
He's an american, who converted to Islam while in prison, and in his book, talks about his fighting in Checnya, Kosovo, Bosnia.

Basically, the view from a terrorist.
Please sir, this is a genlemen's discussion betwen two declared enemies, you can read, but if you please be kind and stay away!
With respect!

[SerbPVO]

Hehe..yep, he's rotting in a Mexican jail now.
Idiot tried to smuggle weapons across the US-Mexico border.

[usa320]

Please...this thread is just going to get locked too...

I think alot of people are getting sick of the chechen-balkan flamewars...i know i am. just put it to bed for now. if some new events happen in the balkans or chechnya, and its worth posting about, that i can see...but arguing over stuff even after being told not too by the moderators several times is just over the edge guys. I wont take any sides in this argument, because its very complex, and not even i, nor anyone here has a complete understanding of what the hell went on or is going on in these regions. So to post stuff about it is mere speculation, speclation which isnt worth bogging down the whole forum with.

Please consider that.

[RomanS]

My reports say, and have proof that there were many members from Albania fighting on Khattab's and Hamzat Gelaev's units.
I say NO!
Cause I am the one that fight the terrorism in Albania! I have all the dossiers of which can have extremist tendences of any kind!
Let us suppose that you are right!
How many? I conceed you 200 men! Which kind of men go from Albania to fight in Chechenya? A damned stupid looser! A flesh for the cannons!
No importance, no revelance!
They are 100 Albanian Commandos in Afghanistan, and are very much appreciated for good work. Other 75 are in Iraq, in October will go other 450 will go at october (probably me with them, but I feel myself too old, to grasse, and too smoker to pass the selection), and these men do good work!
Sure that in Albania are a lot of infiltration of terrorists, as lot of most wanted criminals, russians too hide in albania.
We are a poor country, we are getting out a tragic dictature, and have public order problems. But are things that can happen!
We stay very carefull to the religious extremists, cause we are a society with 5 religions, (moslims suni, moslims bektashi, catholics, orthodoxes, jews), and if extremism take flame, is our future in discussion.
And we are TOLLERANT.
A case, our President Mr. Alfred Moisiu, is a Jew. And jewish community is smaller that 1%.

We are not talking about you fighting against terrorism, and Afghanistan here anymore.

lets keep on one subject. I had enough with you already, so I'm challenging you to debate the Chechen situation with me.
I've been into it since the early days of Dzhokhar.

Anyways.

You say NO there are no Albanians in Chechnya.
You say it because you DON'T KNOW ?
or You are 100% sure

which one is it?

[ARBERESH]

Hehe..yep, he's rotting in a Mexican jail now.
Idiot tried to smuggle weapons across the US-Mexico border.

as lot of serbs that are in albanian jails for arm and drug traffic.
Someones taken by my men. Cry as schoolgirls!

[RomanS]

I too ask everyone else to stay away. I promice to follow the rules, and have a debate in civil matters.

We are enemies! Me and Albanian
But I gurantee that I will not step over the line. Its better to do it here, than on the battlefield.

[ARBERESH]

I can officially declare, that Albanian Government have absolutely no information on Albanian Cittizens in Chechenya!
If you know, and can give me the information, you do me a great favour.
But over aevery reasonable doubt, I confirm you, NO ALBANIANS IN CHECHENYA!

[RomanS]

Please...this thread is just going to get locked too...

I think alot of people are getting sick of the chechen-balkan flamewars...i know i am. just put it to bed for now. if some new events happen in the balkans or chechnya, and its worth posting about, that i can see...but arguing over stuff even after being told not too by the moderators several times is just over the edge guys. I wont take any sides in this argument, because its very complex, and not even i, nor anyone here has a complete understanding of what the hell went on or is going on in these regions. So to post stuff about it is mere speculation, speclation which isnt worth bogging down the whole forum with.

Please consider that.

My friend
If this forum only concentrates on USA and nothing but, it will be boring and one of the other thousand similar forums out there.

People come from all over the world to discuss, and share photos about military
That includes USA, GB, Turkey, Chechnya, Albania , Poland , Finland.

If you don't like the Chechen-Russian, Serb-Albanian conflicts, you don't have to come here and look.

There are plenty of other topics where you can participate.

[RomanS]

This is a very trusted, and well respected web site.

http://www.aeronautics.ru/chechnya/102899.htm


Chechen fighters are using special bullets with displaced center of mass illegal under international laws. According to civilian officials in the Gudermes district, Chechen terrorists groups include not only native Chechen but also mercenaries of various nationalities: Turks, Arabs, Albanians, representatives of several Asian nationalities, Russians, and Ukrainians.


note that several Russian soldiers converted to Islam, and joined the other side many times. We don't deny it!

[ARBERESH]

Permsky, you know what do I mean "Information"!
Not the Venik's site, that I consult for good images, but is to unreliable.

[RomanS]

So the site is lying ?!

[radon]

This is good. Try to keep it in one thread. woot

[M_S]

So there are russian terrorists in Chechenya?

Not suprised.

[RomanS]

Non - Russian site

http://www.watchdog.cz/index.php?show=000000-000004-000004-000003-000005&lang=1

[RomanS]

So there are russian terrorists in Chechenya?

Not suprised.

American terrorist in Chechnya as well.

I am SUPRISED though

[M_S]

So whats the f***ing deal with people from albanian also going to chechenya? :cantbeli:

[RomanS]

So whats the f***ing deal with people from albanian also going to chechenya? :cantbeli:

define "going"

[ARBERESH]

If they are albanians in Chechenya, and you can give me professional informations, this is my phone
00355 68 24 25 632.
May be less than 10 persons, that don't mean that we are terrorist or islamic extremists.
How right is the russian invasion of Chechenia?
How simil with the nazi occupation is the occupation of Chechenya?
Why Chechenya is bombarded all, without dinstiction of legitime military targets?
I can understand russian bombardments of cities in Germany, but technically these are your citizens, not enemies?
Can you answer?

[Mr Gently Benevolent]

So whats the f***ing deal with people from albanian also going to chechenya? :cantbeli:
Same deal as Americans, Australians and UK subjects going to Afghanistan to fight with the Taliban and Al-Q, they are off their bleeding heads.

EDIT*Took out the F word*

[RomanS]

If they are albanians in Chechenya, and you can give me professional informations, this is my phone
00355 68 24 25 632.
May be less than 10 persons, that don't mean that we are terrorist or islamic extremists.
How right is the russian invasion of Chechenia?
How simil with the nazi occupation is the occupation of Chechenya?
Why Chechenya is bombarded all, without dinstiction of legitime military targets?
I can understand russian bombardments of cities in Germany, but technically these are your citizens, not enemies?
Can you answer?

tell me why Russians went to Chechnya?

[RomanS]

lets start from the start

why do you think the conflict began?

[ARBERESH]

My sincere point of view?

[M_S]

So whats the f***ing deal with people from albanian also going to chechenya? :cantbeli:

define "going"


Going = going to chechenya, you could also if lucky get a ride. p-)

Define the word "define"

[MaDuce]

Russia has the right to fight terrorists in Cechneya just like Isreal has the right to fight terrorists in palastine. What I don't get is why invade Cechneya has no redeeming values that would jusify use of so much of Russias resources.

[SeanAshi]

Russia has the right to fight terrorists in Cechneya just like Isreal has the right to fight terrorists in palastine. Actually its the Palestinian territories.

[Argyll]

2 pages,and some degree of civility..........I am impressed

[Red]

2 pages,and some degree of civility..........I am impressed
lets see how long the bottle can hold the water :P

[RomanS]

Russia has the right to fight terrorists in Cechneya just like Isreal has the right to fight terrorists in palastine. What I don't get is why invade Cechneya has no redeeming values that would jusify use of so much of Russias resources.

The majority of problems were created by the new Chechen government.
They saw the oprotunity to disconect from the civil country, and start their own state during the uprising in USSR in the early 90s.

Russia's mistake was that we ignored the problem, and didnt turn to it untill it was too late.
We were too busy with the new democratic freedom, and everyone started tasting it way too fast, totally forgeting about other places.

Dzhohar Dudaev was a pilot in the Soviet Union's air force, and flew multiple missions in Afghanistan.
He witnessed the weakness of structure in the Soviet government, and started writing his plans for turning his native land into a separate country.

Upon his return to Chechnya in the late 80s, he quickly gathered supporters.

So everything began in September of 1991. The Russia was hurt, communism was in it's last days, and the Chechen people saw it as an oprotunity for the move on the crippled boss. And here goes the pilot of the Soviet Union, telling the people that he can do it.

Several important Chechen teips were demanding an Islamic state. It is very understandable why. The entire population was deported away from Chechnya by Beria and Stalin.

It was known that Chechens let in Nazi's during the WW2, which resulted in the German Army breaking through and reaching Stalingrad.
Chechen population openly invited Germans, and some even sided with them. Again, understandable. Look at them in 1938.

Couple of villages in Chechnya were names after a German liberator.

After the defeat of German Nazis, Stalin was pissed at what Chechens did, by betraying the entire Soviet Union.

Agreed that by sending the entire population in the camp wasn't nessasary, but a lot of Chechens were lucky to be alive after doing that.
More Russians were killed by Stalin than Chechens.

But he was a Georgian born, and that even created more beef.

After Khrushev became prime min, he let the Chechens come back to their land.

The new generation was born under the "Russian non-believers are bad"

The new generation also didnt have the desire to go to Universities, learn, or donate their power to Communism.
Shamil Basaev
Arbi Baraev
Aslan Mashadov
Ahmed Zakaev
Salman Raduev
Zelimhan Yandarbiev
Movladi Udugov
were the new generation that didn't sit on their ass, but actually did something about to form their own country.

All of the above were the top key players, sorry GOVERNMENT OFFICIALS in teh new Chechen government.

All of the above had criminal history. SOme even murder. But corrupted Russian government enjoyed their taxes.

Early 80s Chechens moved in Moscow, St.Petersburg, Stavropol, Vladikavkaz and their fame began.

Every Slavic organized crime family respected and feared Chechen "mafia". Those who lived in Russia during those days know what I'm talking about. Chechens didnt repeat themselves twice, when crossed they used the most brutal methods of punishing, and actually managed to push Slavic families in the back. Kavkaz mentality was famous.

That went on untill the late 80s, when Dudaev needed the support from powerful members. The Chechens were tired of paying high taxes to Russian officials, and not to mention the war broke out between Slavic mafia and the Chechen during the break of the Soviet Union. They were dividing the new territories, because suddenly in one night what was illegal during communism, became a full legit business in the new Russia.

Chechens took al lthe gaming business, and Russians were left with almost nothing. They turned to the government for help.

Some say a lot of first Chechen war was a result of organized crime wars between Slavs and Muslims.

Dudaev quickly gathered support from the criminals, and the uprising took off faster than Sputnik.

In 1993 Russian officials traveled to Chechnya to negotiate the problem. Some say Yeltsin was ready to give them independance, so that he could move on the next problem on the list of thousand of other issues he had.

It was too late to negotiate. Upon arrival of General Lebed he was almost killed by the angry mob of Chechens.
Now him and Pavel Grachev only had one choice, blood or turning all the weapons left in Chechnya from USSR to Dudaev.

Grachev either chickend out, or was under the gun, or too drunk when he let them keep an arsenal enough for a whole army.

The black days of October came quick. The new Chechen militia had all rights to go in and kick out any Russian orthodox christians, Osetians, and other non-believers out of Chechnya.

Many were murdered. Those Russians living in Grozny for the past 25 years, didnt have a place to go to, so they were killed. Simply killed, because Dudaev said so.

My mother had friends, they were lucky we pulled them out on time.

Russians sent trucks, and med-aid to evacuate the innocent civilians out of the country. Nice of Dudaev to let us do it. But his people opened up with machine guns on the trucks and OMON.

Mineralnie Vodi train route, was constantly robbed by Chechens, many people were killed in the trains. And that wasn't even in the Chechen territory.

The whole republic now was rioting, and getting ready to kill anyone who says NO TO THEM.

It was time to go in and calm them down.
The rest you know yourself.

[ARBERESH]

Why Russians go to Chechenia?
Simple, invasion!
As Lituania, Azerbajxhan, Turkmenistan, Finland, Estonia, letonia, etc.
No one of them has decided to be confederated with the russians, taken by forces.
And the problem is, tha in other cases, other countries were invaded, but second to the grade of the civilisation of the conqueror, the hed benefits too!
Please beleive I don't want to insult, but I don't think you have something positive to teach! I repeat is an oppinion not an insult!
I don't know why, but russain leaderships of every time and epoque, disappreciate the life of single russian!
Enough to see the way they sent you ro do the wars!
Sure now you can have a rifle for each man, but have you the social structure? I come from a poor country, and grew up with very grea t sacrifices of my parents, I was persecuted by comunists, so I'm by the side of weak, by the side of david, not Golia!
So I can't share that a Putin makes the war to Chechenya, and let us admit, there are very big problems of economic survival for million of persons in russia.
Chechens were ill-treated by all russian leaders, Tzars, bolsheviks, post communists!
They were all deported (hundred thousands of persons) by stalin for diferent years, and the so called loyal chechens of today, are persons that during the deportation (1941-57) had taken the homes and propreties of the indigens.
I work for diferent firearms journals too, and sometimes for the Government, some times for the journals, I visit nearly all the important shows of firearms in all the word (Milipol, Shot Show, IWA, IDET, EXA, etc) and I can see which kind of brillant tecnics russians are!
I wright good things on their articles, and get payed to do it's bussines, but sincerely over than a good tecnic there are few russians I can appreciate as persons!
Ones og thema are Mr. Dragunov (the son of Evghenij) and Valerij shilin, but for the others, seems some troglodites!
Last time I was with my wife in Germany, in the stand of the russians they looked to my wife, speak something in russian, and all laugh. I know it's natural that men do comments for a beautifull women, but this way is so barbaric. Maybe dangerous for the health, let us suppose that I am pissed around one day, I'm 180 cm, 105 kg, good boxeur and have a diplomatic passport in the pocket! You know we are so autodistructive to give a **** to everything if pissed around.
At Paris, I go to the splav stand, they product a damned good unit shield for intervention, the one with the red target in the middle. They were two semi stupid guys that speak as ceka man of 30!

Returning in Chechenya, let us suppose that you have legitime rights over that land. I repeat, you havent, but let us supose!
Brother, the military aviation of russia, and is a very very very serious thing, has bombed villages, citties. Grozny making the right proportions, is more bombed than Stalingrad.
Now, as russian that fought heroically against nazism (however you were allies, dividing Poland) how do you reason when somebody kills your sons?
All russians got angry when your disarmed boys were killed by chechen bombs in Moscow etc, but for each russian kid thera ten thousand chechen kids killed!
Who gains by war in Chechenya? Who is the political and economical dominating class in Russia today? KGB men, converted in Mafia!
That first of all make suffer lot of privations to russian people!
So they have no regards for the non russians!
Sincerely tell me only one angle of the world, that your presence, your intervention gave benefits!
Regards.

[RomanS]

NOW

Grozny wasn't the start of war. First fire started before we reached there. Near Naurskaya a convoy was under attack.

Once the storm of Grozny began, thats when the new meaning, reason and the result of the war took a new NAME.

Majority of Russians soldiers were not aware of why the war started, or what was the point of them being there.

They were tolled to take the city, and continue celebrating the New Year.

Hell broke loose.

Tanks were burned, APCs melted with everyone on it, bodies were everywhere. A group of Marines near Palace was trapped, and if not air support and artillery, the entire brigade would of been dead.

The city was ready for war, Russian soldiers werent.
Most of the civilians left Grozny weeks before the sandbags, machine nests, and anti-tank mines showed up. Those who didnt leave, grabed weapons and climed on top of the buildings waiting for Russian forces.

Grozny was bombed, shelled, and recieved a lot of damage. I feel bad for architecture, and the innocent. But we don't have the weapons with bandit's or terrorist's names on them YET.

If you got a trapped company in the city, snipers in buildings, RPG operators on the ground, machine gunners on the roof, slaughtering your troops - I WILL ORDER ARTILLERY, AIR SUPPORT, and anything that can supress the fire of my enemy to save my boys.

That pissed off a lot of Chechen fighters.
When the "GROUP WEST" entered the city towards Zavodskoi district with airborne, Internal troops and other motorized support, they saw something that erased the politics from their order.

Beheaded Russian soldiers, crusified on the window frames, were hanging out. Body parts missing, genetal areas cut, guts hanging out. Some still alive, all that was in front of the Russian soldiers.

They came in too late. "GROUP NORTH" was almost completely slaughtered. Not many survivers from 131st Maikop brigade shared the same storries.

The new war began. Nobody cared anymore about Yeltsin or Dudaev. Both sides came at eachother for their own reasons.

Russia pushed the Chechens away from Grozny, and completely destroyed Dudaev tank platoons. Chechens knew that they can't no longer resist in an open fight, so they turned into mudjahadeens.
Their Afgani friends came to teach them. Even though some Chechens were fighting against them in Afgan War.

In the summer of 1995, Shamil Basaev with hundreds of Chechen fighters entered the city of Budenovsk. He wanted to reach Moscow, but was stoped in Budenovsk. He took a maternity hospital, with hundreds of pregnant women in them.

To show how serious he was, he quickly executed a dozen of them, and demanded that the Russians withdraw from Chechnya. Even though the Chechen propaganda said that they are winning against Russian soldiers, why take the hospital?

So my question for you !

Basaev's group that took Budenovsk should be classified as TERRORISTS or Freedom Fighters?

[ARBERESH]

****, it' worst than I feared!
So you understand german behaviour in Russia?

[ARBERESH]

Basaev's group that took Budenovsk should be classified as TERRORISTS or Freedom Fighters?

That kind of terrorist, that is very unlucky to meet me!

I have one my "proverb". I think I have invented it.
"There are no war crimes, id the war that's a crime".
I know very well what does it mean to bring a 19-years old boy dead to his mother.
But governments mus be intelligent and civil, and to make things go in such a way.
You said in another post "respect for amricans, but for me is eye fpr eye".
This is the reason that the americans stay very carefull on living the justice in the hands of painfull soldiers!
And this is the reasons that americans win!

[RomanS]

****, it' worst than I feared!
So you understand german behaviour in Russia?
We are not talking about German in Russia.

NEITHER YOU or ME were born during WW2.
Please STAY ON THE TOPIC.


After a few months of fighting in Grozny, and than Chechen fighters were pushed south in the mountains. Basaev started loosing the fight, and was ordered to take a new tactic against Russians.

The first was in the summer of 1995

BUDENOVSK

Him and his fighters in the name of Allah "the highest" took a hospital with pregnant women. He clearly said that he was annoyed by the Russian bombers bombing his man in Vedeno. He ordered to withdraw all the Russian troops from Chechnya.

That didn't work. The next demand was to stop bombing traped Chechen fighters near Vedeno, and he would release all the hostages.

You said Chechens ONLY FOUGHT AGAINST RUSSIAN SOLDIERS AND MILITARY TARGETS.

How did he get lost, and confused the Maternity Hospital with the military base in Hankala???

Taking and executing pregnant women in Budenovsk, back to my question. ARE THEY TERRORISTS OR FREEDOM FIGHTERS.

http://www.militaryphotos.net/forums/viewtopic.php?t=11344&start=48

This is what you said


Chechen are FREEDOOM fighters and not terrorists. Chechens hit only oblects in Russian terrirtory

SO I will repeat one more time.

Taking a hospital in the Russian territory with pregnant women, killing a dozen of them to make an example.
Do they count as Terrorists
or
Freedom fighters?

your answer please

[ARBERESH]

Terrorist act, horrible and unacceptable, comited by persons that suffered terrible looses of families homes and everything.
Better stop this damned war.

[Undo]

Terrorist act, horrible and unacceptable, comited by persons that suffered terrible looses of families homes and everything.
Better stop this damned war.

No excuses for terrorism. I don't care what they lost. They are criminals.

[ARBERESH]

Terrorist act, horrible and unacceptable, comited by persons that suffered terrible looses of families homes and everything.
Better stop this damned war.

No excuses for terrorism. I don't care what they lost. They are criminals.

And the ones that sterminated their families?
It's neccessary to stop! For the good of all the parts!

[RomanS]

Terrorist act, horrible and unacceptable, comited by persons that suffered terrible looses of families homes and everything.
Better stop this damned war.

Basaev did not LOOSE a single Family member before the Budenovsk raid.

His fathers house in Vedeno was bombed in a revenge for executed Russian women after the raid.

-1 for you

do your homework

[ARBERESH]

NOW

Grozny wasn't the start of war. First fire started before we reached there. Near Naurskaya a convoy was under attack.

Once the storm of Grozny began, thats when the new meaning, reason and the result of the war took a new NAME.

Majority of Russians soldiers were not aware of why the war started, or what was the point of them being there.

ERROR OF THE COMMANDERS! LOSE THEY SOLDIERS, AND MADE THINGS GO WRONG FOR THE FUTURE!

They were tolled to take the city, and continue celebrating the New Year.

STUPIDS! SORRY, BUT NO NEW YEAR! ALL **** COMMANDERS!

Hell broke loose.

Tanks were burned, APCs melted with everyone on it, bodies were everywhere. A group of Marines near Palace was trapped, and if not air support and artillery, the entire brigade would of been dead.

The city was ready for war, Russian soldiers werent.
Most of the civilians left Grozny weeks before the sandbags, machine nests, and anti-tank mines showed up. Those who didnt leave, grabed weapons and climed on top of the buildings waiting for Russian forces.

Grozny was bombed, shelled, and recieved a lot of damage. I feel bad for architecture, and the innocent. But we don't have the weapons with bandit's or terrorist's names on them YET.

If you got a trapped company in the city, snipers in buildings, RPG operators on the ground, machine gunners on the roof, slaughtering your troops - I WILL ORDER ARTILLERY, AIR SUPPORT, and anything that can supress the fire of my enemy to save my boys.

AFTER YOU LEAD THEM IN ****?

That pissed off a lot of Chechen fighters.


When the "GROUP WEST" entered the city towards Zavodskoi district with airborne, Internal troops and other motorized support, they saw something that erased the politics from their order.

THE SOLDIER HAVE TO OBEY PRECISE ORDERS, NOT TO DO ON HIS HEAD!

Beheaded Russian soldiers, crusified on the window frames, were hanging out. Body parts missing, genetal areas cut, guts hanging out. Some still alive, all that was in front of the Russian soldiers.

They came in too late. "GROUP NORTH" was almost completely slaughtered. Not many survivers from 131st Maikop brigade shared the same storries.

The new war began. Nobody cared anymore about Yeltsin or Dudaev. Both sides came at eachother for their own reasons.

Russia pushed the Chechens away from Grozny, and completely destroyed Dudaev tank platoons. Chechens knew that they can't no longer resist in an open fight, so they turned into mudjahadeens.
Their Afgani friends came to teach them. Even though some Chechens were fighting against them in Afgan War.

In the summer of 1995, Shamil Basaev with hundreds of Chechen fighters entered the city of Budenovsk. He wanted to reach Moscow, but was stoped in Budenovsk. He took a maternity hospital, with hundreds of pregnant women in them.

To show how serious he was, he quickly executed a dozen of them, and demanded that the Russians withdraw from Chechnya. Even though the Chechen propaganda said that they are winning against Russian soldiers, why take the hospital?

So my question for you !

Basaev's group that took Budenovsk should be classified as TERRORISTS or Freedom Fighters?

IS A ****ING BASTRD


MORE THAN THE FAITH OF CHECHENS IS THE FAITH OF YOUR LEADERS!

[ARBERESH]

Terrorist act, horrible and unacceptable, comited by persons that suffered terrible looses of families homes and everything.
Better stop this damned war.

Basaev did not LOOSE a single Family member before the Budenovsk raid.

His fathers house in Vedeno was bombed in a revenge for executed Russian women after the raid.

-1 for you

do your homework

Pemsky, may Lord kill me if I accept a pregnant killers!
But these men are suffering to much! You too! You ahve loosed the reasons of the war, you fight for the war. And this is destructive!

[RomanS]

So now We call BASAEV a Terrorist
correct?

[ARBERESH]

Yes!
A terrorist that aprofitate from a right war!
Because pregnant chechens are killed to!
Correct?

[Groove]

Permskii why you never answer questions about russias economy and things that are not showing russia that great that u wish them to be ?

Sorry but u live in USA and you never fought in Grozny. Maybe thats why you such a nationalist...

Groove

[RomanS]

Yes!
A terrorist that aprofitate from a right war!
Because pregnant chechens are killed to!
Correct?

NEver seen a photo, video, report of one.

Budenovsk was on TV.

Now lets move on,
So now we have a terrorist leader named Shamil Abdalah Basaev.

He has over 5,000 fighters under him, and through out the Chechen war he had the biggest ammount of man and women under him.

Are they terrorists or freedom fighters?

[RomanS]

Permskii why you never answer questions about russias economy and things that are not showing russia that great that u wish them to be ?

Sorry but u live in USA and you never fought in Grozny. Maybe thats why you such a nationalist...

Groove

Are you in USA as well?

[Undo]

Permskii why you never answer questions about russias economy and things that are not showing russia that great that u wish them to be ?

Sorry but u live in USA and you never fought in Grozny. Maybe thats why you such a nationalist...

Groove

Hey friend, this has nothing to do with the topic at hand, so please stay out of it. If you want to have a conversation about that with Permskii why don't you start your own thread. Call it, "Hey PERMSKII"

[RomanS]

Permskii why you never answer questions about russias economy and things that are not showing russia that great that u wish them to be ?

Sorry but u live in USA and you never fought in Grozny. Maybe thats why you such a nationalist...

Groove

Hey friend, this has nothing to do with the topic at hand, so please stay out of it.

Thanks man, this way we keep it civil, so others can enjoy it.

[ARBERESH]

Yes!
A terrorist that aprofitate from a right war!
Because pregnant chechens are killed to!
Correct?

NEver seen a photo, video, report of one.

Budenovsk was on TV.

Now lets move on,
So now we have a terrorist leader named Shamil Abdalah Basaev.

He has over 5,000 fighters under him, and through out the Chechen war he had the biggest ammount of man and women under him.

Are they terrorists or freedom fighters?

I have fotos of massacres of chechen civilians, commited by russian army, I ahve fotos of bombs ot in Moscow by FSB, and found unexploded by police, but I promissed you that no foto!
But I have!

[UkrainianAmerican]

Yes!
A terrorist that aprofitate from a right war!
Because pregnant chechens are killed to!
Correct?

NEver seen a photo, video, report of one.

Budenovsk was on TV.

Now lets move on,
So now we have a terrorist leader named Shamil Abdalah Basaev.

He has over 5,000 fighters under him, and through out the Chechen war he had the biggest ammount of man and women under him.

Are they terrorists or freedom fighters?

I have fotos of massacres of chechen civilians, commited by russian army, I ahve fotos of bombs ot in Moscow by FSB, and found unexploded by police, but I promissed you that no foto!
But I have!
Can you PM me a few of those?

[RomanS]

Yes!
A terrorist that aprofitate from a right war!
Because pregnant chechens are killed to!
Correct?

NEver seen a photo, video, report of one.

Budenovsk was on TV.

Now lets move on,
So now we have a terrorist leader named Shamil Abdalah Basaev.

He has over 5,000 fighters under him, and through out the Chechen war he had the biggest ammount of man and women under him.

Are they terrorists or freedom fighters?

I have fotos of massacres of chechen civilians, commited by russian army, I ahve fotos of bombs ot in Moscow by FSB, and found unexploded by police, but I promissed you that no foto!
But I have!

I understand

But question

We agreed that Shamil Basaev's raid on Budenovsk (one of dozen of terrorist attacks he organized later) turned him from a freedom fighter into a terrorist.

He is the most respected, and the biggest leader of other fighters. Native Chechens, Ukranian nationalists, Azeris, and some Arab mercs. Not many, but some.

Are all the people under him, count as terrorists or freedom fighters?

[Undo]

You know, I hate to interupt and risk sounding like groove or something, but I have been reading some of the other threads that you guys have been involved in and I think that you guys are very similar. You definitely have different opinions and carry a lot of cold war/end of soviet union baggage, but on a certain level (tactically) I think you guys would probably agree about a lot of things.

[Webley]

PermskiiOMON, can I recommend a book?

"My Jihad" by Aukai Collins. Can be found in most bookstores.
He's an american, who converted to Islam while in prison, and in his book, talks about his fighting in Checnya, Kosovo, Bosnia.

Basically, the view from a terrorist.

I second that.

[ARBERESH]

[quote="ARBERESH"][quote="PermskiiOMON"][quote=ARBERESH]Yes!

Are all the people under him, count as terrorists or freedom fighters?

Pemsky, terrorist or fighter?
Men that kills and is killed!
Too much for no reason!
Terrorists as terrorists are the russian generals that order massacres.

[RomanS]

ALbanian I got your PM but I must reply here.

I understand we have the same pation for weapons .
THAT IS ALL.

You'll never be my friend, or a beer buddy.

Chechens too love only Russian weapons.

So lets continue. Unless you wanna drop it.

[RomanS]

[quote="ARBERESH"][quote=PermskiiOMON][quote=ARBERESH]Yes!

Are all the people under him, count as terrorists or freedom fighters?

Pemsky, terrorist or fighter?
Men that kills and is killed!
Too much for no reason!
Terrorists as terrorists are the russian generals that order massacres.

Most of the Russian Generals don't run around with soldiers. They sit away. They are cowards.

Some Generals like Troshev, Kazanzev are real man. They actually participate in a fight.

So when was a time when a Russian general ordered a murder of entire Chechnya? And why no Nukes were used, instead soldiers went inthere wasting their lives, time, and weaponry.

I don't get your answer.
Are they terrorists or freedom fighters. Pick one.

[hood]

As per Tane Angle's other post, I'm locking this thread for now to let things calm down on the boards and to get these message groups back to a normal state. Further discussions on this matter can be discussed in private messages, or not. In addition, the subject of this thread violates the forum rule of trying to attract attention to a thread without stating what the thread is about in the subject line. Topics such as "Hey Albanian!" are meant for private messages, not the public boards.